In defense of the sanctimonious women's studies set || First feminist blog on the internet

Moving the Goalposts

zuzu

Jennifer Ouellette at 3 Quarks Daily has a must read post on the moving target of sizes in women’s clothes. While the couture industry is scaling down sizes so that zero is the new four, and sizes less than zero are being created, the mass-market apparel industry is, thankfully, beginning to realize that they’re in the business of selling clothing to people with actual bodies — and only a very small number of women’s actual bodies, regardless of size, fit the industry’s hourglass standard.

The post is too chock-full of great stuff to excerpt here, so hie thee over to 3 Quarks Daily and read the whole thing.

52 thoughts on Moving the Goalposts

  1. ooooh… so how many years till target or sears gets a body scanner? Anyone want to guess? I say… umm.. 6 years (for sears, 10 for target) prolly.

  2. oh and as long as we’re moving the goal posts down… can we move it so that my size 16 is now the new 10? Thanks! *joking*

  3. Man, I wish the industry had an hourglass norm. Then I could find clothes that fit both my 30″ waist and 40″ hips! (A 10″ difference in bust-waist and hip-waist is the definition of hourglass, IIRC.) So I find clothes that fit my hips but gap 3″ at the waist. Or fit my bust and are extra loose at the waist.

    The industry norm, at the moment, is stick-thin with no discernible curves. At least, that I’ve noticed.

  4. I’ve long suspected the fashion industry of practicing a “sliding scale,” shifting their sizing charts downward to accommodate America’s expanding waistlines — and, more importantly, to make women feel better about themselves (“Hey! Suddenly I’m one size smaller!”) so that they buy more clothes.

    Apparently, it’s true: women’s clothing sizes in the US are being progressively “down-sized,” so that what was a size 8 in 1990 is now a size 6, and so on.

    I find this dishonest and harmful. Kinda like changing from pounds to kilos. “I used to weigh 180 pounds, but now I’m just 82 kilos!”

    From the comments:

    It’s such a complex question. I would think, though, that there is a relationship between the increasingly obese nation and the increasing fetishization of thinness.

    I think this is true. Back in the day when food was scarce, a rubenesque figure was considered the ideal. When most people worked outside in the sun, pale skin was the ideal. Now, with the average person being overweight, thin is the ideal.

  5. I’m with C. Diane. I’m not sure what the industry definition of hourglass is, but I cannot find a shirt that fits me in the bust and waist. In fact, wearing any shirt with buttons, for me, is usually impossible if I don’t get it 3 sizes too big. Although the industry norm these days appears to be stick-thin with large breasts. Just not as large as mine.

    Having whinged enough about that, though, I knew they were downsizing. Amazingly, I still wear a size 6 or 8 skirt, just like I did in college! However, I weigh a bit more than I did in college. Either there’s some bizarre dimensional folding thing going on a la the TARDIS, or the fashion industry has downsized. I went with the latter as the most likely possibility. 😀

  6. That’s why I buy guys’ clothes. I’m a medium (or a large, depending on whether I intend to actually wear the shirt or just sleep in it) on top, and a 30″x30″ on the bottom.

    Plus, guys’ clothes tend to be less expensive — or at least, you get more material for your buck. None of this “$15 for assfloss” business.

  7. In fact, wearing any shirt with buttons, for me, is usually impossible if I don’t get it 3 sizes too big. Although the industry norm these days appears to be stick-thin with large breasts. Just not as large as mine.

    Speaking as the proud possessor of several bras in size 28G (not a typo!), I recommend that if you’re ever in England, you check out Bravissimo. Their clothes are pricy and not the most well-made, but they do have shirts that fit the excessively curvy.

    I agree that it’s not easy for hourglass women to find clothes that fit, either. I’m actually not convinced that there’s a woman in the world who has an easy time finding clothes.

  8. Amen to C. Diane: what hourglass?? I’m a (short) zero, 32-23-34 and nothing fits. The “zero” at Bebe is really a 3 or 4; H&M mostly pretends I don’t exist; “petite” sizes don’t get it right either. The Gap and I have NEVER been friends and Banana Republic… don’t get me started!

    The only ones that seem to get it right are little teeny bopper stores, like Wet Seal and Forever21. And I do underwear almost exclusively at Victoria’s Secret, because I can never find Jockey or Hanes in my size.

    I’d like to know where adult stores get their sizing info: I imagine MOST women have smaller waists than hips, so why are pants’ waists big enough to drive trucks through, but the booty/hip area is nonexistant? I don’t feel like they’re ENCOURAGING an hourglass. Unless they’re encouraging us to walk around naked.

  9. I’ll second Sally at #7. Although I haven’t tried Bravissimo’s clothes, their lingerie is really great. And I’ll add that they do have online ordering and will ship outside the UK.

  11. I’m reading The Beauty Myth right now, so after reading this post it all just sounds like a plot to force women to spend more time shopping for clothes by making it nearly impossible to find things that fit correctly. Of course, it also does the double duty of making women insecure about our appearance because our clothes never seem to fit properly. And hey — if the clothes don’t fit well, then they probably fall apart faster, so we have to buy new clothes more often.

  12. I love my tailor. Sure, it cost me initially, but I’m saving a fortune on clothes in the long run because I’m no longer filling my already stuffed closet with new clothes because I have “nothing to wear.” I have plenty to wear now and it all fits. YAY.

    Another tip: Do what you can to eliminate seams, buttons, snaps, zippers, etc from your life. Every thing manufacturers do to fit a garment is just one more opportunity to get it wrong. I’m addicted to wrap dresses (the ties are adjustable!), and stretchy knits (especially pants!) are da BOMB!

  14. I want to second the ‘what hourglass?’ thing…dropping out of plus sizes was the worst thing ever to happen to pants shopping for me. At least they cut things for girls who are curvy, which was great for me, though I have friends who are plus-sized and less hourglass shaped who HATE the way stores like Lane Bryant cut things. I am a huge fan of the ‘shape sizing’ thing I read about a few months ago (maybe here?) where the sizes were 12A, 12B, 12C for different body shapes. Women vary so much in proportions, I don’t know whose dumb idea it was to put us all in the same ‘sizes.’

  15. I’m very hourglass-shaped, and I hate the way Lane Bryant pants fit; they’re always way too small in the thighs and too big in the hips for me. I have no problem with Old Navy, though.

  18. zuzu, if only i could give you the extra few inches of pant i have trailing around at all times.

    old navy’s ‘petite plus’ stuff is still wierdly long, and drives me batshit crazy. wait, that’s not true, SOME of thier petite stuff seems to have shorter legs, but it seems completely random.

  19. And forget about buying clothes for anyone else as a gift. Do.Not.Go.There.Unless.They.Have.Gift.Cards. At least that way the giftee might have the option to buy a lawnmower instead of the trendoid rag of the moment.

    Shopping for personal clothes is bad enough when it turns out the presumed size is off the mark and a quick buying operation turns into a frustrating team effort (solo efforts require the stamina of the shopaholic) with a runner foraging back and forth from the racks to the changing room to see if the a fit can be found for the suffering soul in the change room. And then, you look at the results and go, is it /supposed/ to fit like that, even at the right size?

    Maybe it’s like the reshelving strategy at stores where moving things around forces customers to look at more stock instead of zeroing in on the target, potentially upping sales.

  20. When we finally got an Old Navy here, I noticed something really odd. All their sizes are three to four times larger than what they are actually labelled – a size 4 in Old Navy jeans is almost a 10, anywhere else in my city. My husband and I have often wondered if this is because they ship their clothes in from the US, which seems to have radically different sizing than up here.

    I’ve never been able to find clothes that fit me. I’m short with a high waist and long inseam and I’m small enough to wear kids/teens sizes. Either I shop in the kids section and wear stuff that might fit but really isn’t appropriate for work, or I shop at an “adult” women’s store and I end up buying shirts that billow around me and pants that puddle around my feet. Yeah…I’ve just started making my clothes now.

  21. Drive by posting, ’cause I’m on MASSIVE deadline:

    Technically, an hour glass shape is defined by *shoulders* and hips being about the same visual width, with a defined (8 – 10 inches smaller than hips) waistline. That’s textbook.

    *All* women’s clothing patterns are cut for a B cup of whatever size the piece happens to be. Not really awful for the A cups out there, since they do have the option of padding. Irritating for C cups. *Deadly* for D cups and up — you can either fit your bustline, or the rest of you, and the result is simply not pretty in a tailored/fitted shirt.

    A retail size 0 *should* be about the same as a pattern size 4-6, that is, about a 29-1/2″ FULL bust. They are still not built for the truly petite, since there is usually a difference in shoulder to bust point and bust point to waist in petite vs. “regular” sizing, not to mention arm/sleeve length. which is why 3/4 sleeves RULE. 🙂

    The majority of women are relatively pear shaped, with their shoulders being anywhere from slightly narrower to a LOT narrower than their hips. This is not acknowledged by the women’s clothing industry.

    It simply SUCKS to be both plus sized (as the industry defines it) and petite (under 5’3″). My ass got wider, not *longer*, thank you, so I don’t really NEED the crotch to be somewhere in the vicinity of my knees. Dear Lord and Lady, am I glad I’m a professional seamstress and can alter/construct clothes that fit!!!!

    And yes, shopping for clothes in a retail manner drives me batshit crazy. Which is why I always tend to look a little, hmmm…. creative.

    /rant, for now

  22. Do retail clothes fit anyone?

    I’m not plus-sized, but I’m short. I have a small upper body, and a larger lower body — thick thighs, etc. I’m pretty average weight for my height, but I still can’t find clothes that fit at most chain stores. I used to work at Banana Republic, and their clothes hang off of me. I wear a size 0 in their pants, and I am certainly not a size 0. I don’t even bother trying on their shirts anymore, because even the exta-smalls will be too wide for my narrow shoulders. GAP is just as bad, and Old Navy is worse. And pants from anywhere are always too long.

    My sister is stick-skinny and also can’t find clothes. My room mate has narrow shoulders and a tiny body, but DD boobs — finding shirts that fit right is incredibly difficult for her. And I don’t think there’s any dispute that plus-sized women have a hell of a time finding clothes that fit.

    Who, exactly, is happy with this?

  23. Banana Republic is completely messed up. They recently introduced a size 00, and as far as I can tell, it really is a case of “ours go to 11.”

  24. Petite, stick-thin, no boobs, and yeah, clothes shopping sucks, except for really basic stuff like T-shirts or sweaters. I like button-down shirts, but those darts on the front? They’re useless! It makes the front baggy. And waistlines are always just a little too big.

  25. Put down another complaint about not finding clothes to fit an hourglass figure. My shoulders and hips are both wide (and the rear sticks out), proportionally tiny waist, and D cup breasts. Also tall with long legs (34″ inseam if I don’t wear heels). I mostly just wear skirts and sweaters/knit tops. I’ve tried getting pants to fit, but either they are too short, too tight in the hips/ass and practically falling off everywhere else, or the waist would be right but I can’t get them past the giant ass. And cute, fitted, button tops are completely out of the question unless I get them tailored, which I can’t afford that often and I am not a seamstress. Which basically means that in the winter I’m either freezing or my clothes don’t fit, because northern Ohio winters are not known for their mildness.

    Jill has it exactly right, clothes are not made to fit actual people. At least I’ve never known anyone who could just wear stuff straight off the rack. My sister who is taller than I am with a much shorter inseam and also quite heavy can’t get clothes that fit, and my other sister who is perfectly thin with no hips or ass and small breasts also can’t find anything. It sucks.

  26. I’ve worked at two retail stores and everyone pins things on mannequins so they look alright. I’m pretty sure they do the same things for models in ads.
    I’m a size 4-6, with the body shape of a soda can that someone lightly squeezed in the middle – neither thin nor curvy. For all the curvy women who complain that pants aren’t cut for them, maybe it’s the “juniors” sizes versus the “misses” sizes. Most jeans bought in the younger departments fit me alright, although I have practically straight hips and a flat ass and have to belt them to keep them from sagging. But I’ve tried on jeans in the middle-aged department and they’re much baggier in the hip area. I’ve thought about shopping in the men’s section but I live in the suburbs and that would probably be frowned on lol.
    Although I am average height and not particularly long-legged, I’ve tried on jeans and been appalled when I stand on my tiptoes and they still trail. There are jeans I’ve bought in the petite section that I can only wear with heels, so I wonder where the real petite women (5″1 or 4″11 etc) buy their pants. The kids’ section?

  27. Oh and about Banana Republic, I swear that ever since they opened the Petites stores, the clothes at the “regular” BR have gotten huge. As I said in the previous post, I’m not thin, but their XS was too big for me and all the pants are cartoonishly long. I don’t know how many Petites stores are open nationwide – I live in a place populated by lots of 5″2 90 lb Asian women so there’s quite a market for Petites here.

  28. More disconnected rambling from the professional costumer/alterationist/custom seamstress:

    Absolutely, the clothing on models in ads is pinned/clipped/clamped and/or airbrushed/photoshopped to look like it fits. 😛 They also don’t have to move or sit down, generally, so things don’t ride, bunch, and gap. 😛 😛 Bra ads particularly bug me — if you really look at the Victoria’s Secret ads, all of the models are squeezed into bras at LEAST a size or more too small. No wonder half (80%, actually, I hear) of the women in America are wearing the wrong size!!!

    Short/petite women either find their pants in the petites section (assuming, of course, that such animal exists in their city) or spend a fortune in time or alterations fees getting them shortened. I personally troll Savers Thrift Department Store for jeans, and there is apparently a woman of my size/height with good taste 😉 who brings her castoffs to The Pink Closet, my local consignment shop. I recently scored a pair of Liz Claiborne petite pants at Marshalls that fit relatively well, although a trifle wide in the waist. Given the length of zipper, I suspect they should sit further down on the hips than they do on me, but I don’t really care. They more or less fit my ass, I don’t need to wear heels with them, and they were $25. I’m happy!!

    In trying to fit the widest number of people, retail clothing ends up fitting no one well. The only answer is to learn to sew/alter your own clothing, make *really* good friends with someone who does (hint: many of us loooooove chocolate!), or find an alterationist you trust and make the investment in good quality clothing that is worth the cost of altering. And remember, it’s the *clothing’s* fault that it doesn’t fit your body, not your fault for having a “weird” body. Repeat that daily, several times if necessary!!!

    exangelena: My first mom used to shop in the boys/mens sections for pants back in the 60s and 70s. I say “go for it!” 🙂 Whatever works, eh?

  29. I make my own clothes, and my upper and lower body are two different (standard sewing pattern) sizes. When making clothes for my sister in the States, I’ve to ask her for her *measurements* because her “retail” size has nothing whatsoever to do with any reliable standard. European retail sizes match standard pattern sizing, by the way.

    For instance, pattern sizing 6-8 is a smaller body, 10-14 a medium-sized body, 16-22 large. People with different proportions or different body-sizes between bust, waist, and hips need a pattern that incorporates several sizes.

    In the States, it seems like 0-4 is small, 5-7 medium, 8-10 large, 12+ is “ginormous”. Whatever. When I read stupidly titled articles like “Can a size 14 be sexy?” I wonder what the
    f-ck “size 14” they’re talking about.

  30. Laurie – In VS catalogs, when the models are shot from the sides, I was always struck at how relatively small-breasted they are – probably B-cups (although if they’re wearing too-small bras that’s a factor too). I assume that all the dramatic cleavage is probably taping as well. Not to mention the computer wizardry done on virtually all glossy ads. As for shopping in the men’s section, I’d have to weight the consequences of the staring and pointing with the possibility of having really great fitting pants 🙂

  31. Laurie – Thanks! I know for sure now that I’m an hourglass, though I always thought of it more as “built like a 5’2″ linebacker.” Broad shoulders, wide hips, smaller waist. Petite (yay for a short waist) and a D-cup. I buy clothes as infrequently as possible, especially pants, and when I find a pair of pants that fits, I buy 2 and wear them until they fall apart. Petites sometimes fit, but are usually too small in the thigh. Jeans, I wear men’s. Dress slacks don’t fit right in men’s cuts (I’ve tried.)

    I’m extremely thankful I know how to sew. Though if it involves a zipper, I run away. I bought a dressform (to make my first fitted top), and because of my (&^$ measurements, I had to get the petite model. Except neither the bust nor waist went to a big enough size, so I had to stick a bunch of batting on it to add the proper curves. Which is, of course, the more appropriate method, because you can’t make them any smaller.

    Why is petite equal to tiny? Sure I’m short and meet the pattern standards for petite, but I’m not tiny.

  32. exangelena:
    Great pants, hands down! *grin* Where ARE you, anyway? I’m not sure that anyone would think twice about it out here in MN. Then again, I hate shopping retail and tend to get reeeeeeaaally monofocused when I do so. I’m not sure I’d even notice staring and pointing. Maybe whispering and snickering. 😉

    If you look at the underwires on the bras in the VS ads, you’ll note that they generally come about 1/3 to 1/2 the way up the breast mound in the center. They *should* sit flat on the breastbone — that’s where they best exert their support abilities. So, bras that are too small, probably padding and/or taping, and Photoshop! Woo-hoo! 😛

    In my experience, Vicky’s bras are slightly undersized compared to other brands anyway. I think they use fitting models on the small end of the cup size scale to develop their bras. 😛 (To be fair, some of their padded, push up type bras really do make for some spectacular cleavage — they do have the engineering for THAT down pretty well. But I find it difficult to find my bra size, 38 D, in their stores in anything that a) looks nice, and b) doesn’t poke me under the arms or in the upper arms with the underwire.)

    J Koenig: I want to move to Europe! I consistently take a 16 – 18 in patterns and am around a 14-16 in retail. I maintain that I am a medium sized human (from what I can observe), but all of the S-M-L-XL size clothing that I end up getting is either L or XL, unless I want it skin tight. Wtf?!?

  33. I swear, I need to (re) learn to sew. I could quite happily exist in a business-casual environment in simple skirts and knit tops (which tend not to be that big of an issue due to the stretch factor).

    And god, I’d love to have some suits made for me one of these days.

  34. And can I complain about shirt sleeves for the short? I’m 5’2″, and my arms are proportionally short as well. Regular long sleeves have about 3 inches extra, so if cuffed they billow like twin Hindenbergs, if straight they go below my fingertips. Short sleeves reach my elbows. 3/4 – oh, don’t get me started. I’m also quite plump, and for some godawful reason almost all plus-sized shirts have 3/4 sleeves, and they look ridiculous. They basically reach to about an inch above my wrist, so look way too long for 3/4, and too short to impersonate regular long sleeves. Gaaaa. And even thinking about finding short waisted, fat, hourglass, short length pants makes me want to slit my throat.

  35. Greatest bras ever: Natori. I’m a lingerie addict, and I refuse to set foot in VS anymore — their bras are ill-fitting and cheaply made. And greatest underwear ever: Cosabella. Stretchy, doesn’t pinch (even the thongs!), and doesn’t do the annoying thing that most low-rise thongs do, where they sit tightly right underneath your side fat and pinch it up, making it more noticable and giving you the “muffin top” over your jeans. Plus Cosabella underwear is really pretty, and you can find it at pretty affordable prices at places like Nordstrom Rack. It’s glorious.

  36. That’s why I buy guys’ clothes. I’m a medium (or a large, depending on whether I intend to actually wear the shirt or just sleep in it) on top, and a 30″x30″ on the bottom.

    Plus, guys’ clothes tend to be less expensive — or at least, you get more material for your buck. None of this “$15 for assfloss” business.

    Word, Sara. Less expensive, free hemming often thrown in, clothes tend to be stain-resistant, wrinkle-resistant, tough, washable, well-tailored, and the pants have a low rise, as do I.

    Shirts are still a problem, so mostly I wear knit shirts.

  37. Haven’t fit into VS bras for dog’s years, but I used to buy their panties fairly frequently. Turns out they fall apart pretty fast.

    Now i mostly buy the three-packs at the local drugstore or whatnot, and whaddya know: cheaper -and- they last a lot longer.

  38. I wear guys clothes because I’m built like a guy (except for my boobs)–no butt, no hips, big panza(I like my beer!)

    My gf asks me “Why do you always by guys clothes? Do you want to be one or what?”

    “Ummm…nooooo….I buy ’em because THEY FIT!”

    She fucking kills me sometimes, I swear.

  39. Exangelena, I LOVE your description of your body type– soda can lightly squeezed in the middle. That’s pretty much where I am too, though my hips/butt are smaller than my chest by a noticeable amount. And C-cup. It SUCKS.

    I have to say, though, that layering saved my life. The busty CAN wear button-downs again. Just throw a coordinating camisole underneath, leave the top 3 buttons open, and lo and behold–no boobage! safe for work!

    And ideal for people whose offices are like 20 degrees colder than the outside.

  40. C. Diane:

    A little late since you’ve already purchased a dress form, but Uniquely You is a godsend for those of us not shaped like a regular dress form. *rolls eyes, ’cause that’s almost EVERYone*

    It’s a compressable foam form that comes with a separate canvas cover that you alter to fit yourself. Squeeze the foam form into the cover, and it compresses to fill out the altered cover. Really cool stuff! 🙂 We used one in the costume shop for fitting period costumes since we could corset it into the same shape the actress was corseted into. AND — if you change sizes enough to change the shape of the form, you take the cover off, re-size it, and zip it back on. Terribly useful. More expensive than the other kind, but more useful for the other than “average” figure, and it’s totally pinable, too. Useful for holding things up/on/in when they aren’t quite finished.

  41. If you want to see some weird-ass sizing that’s guaranteed to make *every* woman go completely around the bend, go shopping for a wedding or bridesmaid dress. My best friend is getting married, and between watching slightly sinister-looking fitters wielding dangerously large pins and scary clamps trying to squeeze her totally rockin’ curvy figure into what they called a size 10 wedding gown sample (while she swam in other supposed 10’s) and personally having to try on bridesmaid dresses where both a 4 AND a 10 are made for 5’11” stick-thin women with huge breasts, it’s enough to make a girl want to elope (if I hadn’t already). Bleargh!

  42. AnotherKatie- That reminds me of the episode of Daria (seen here in three parts 1 2 and 3) where her cousin is getting married, and the bridesmaid dress looks horrible on her. At the wedding everyone keeps asking her “Why didn’t you get the same dress as the other bridesmaids?”

  43. Clothing sizes, how do I hate thee? Let me count the ways.

    I’m barely five feet tall. Where are the pants that do not pool around my feet and yet are unadorned by kiddie logos? Neither do I desire to have rhinestones arrayed across my ass, thanks awfully.

    I’m broad shouldered and busty. Where are the shirts which I may button over my boobs that do not billow around my midsection like sails?

    I work out and am possessed of arms and legs with visible muscles. Where are the pants which do not cling to my thighs and yet do not gap at the waist? I have a waist, you know. It’s an hourglass thing. And I’d like short sleeves that do not cut off all circulation to my fingers.

    And boot makers? I wear a size 6. However I do not have pipe stem calves, and I’d like a pair of boots that are more than 12 inches at the throat, thanks. Yes, I have calves that are wider than my ankle, so sue me.

    Adding insult to injury I am fifty years old, and want to dress like something other than an MTV music video extra or a matronly sit-com character.

    The mall is a giant Slough of Despair, as far as I am concerned.

  44. The irritating thing about bridal/bridesmaids sizing is that, up until recently, the manufacturing companies used pattern industry sizes for their gowns. Which meant that most brides would hyperventilate the first time they were told they’d be taking a 12 when they normally wear an 8 or 10, but they got over it because it was relatively consistent from dress to dress. And mostly, they were warned. Then some of the companies got the **brilliant** idea to use pseudo-retail sizing, going down to size 2 and 0 (but not often over a 20 — go figure). The problem is, they aren’t consistent from brand to brand. (Yeah — I do alterations through a local salon. I’m their independent contractor alterationist, and get called on frequently to offer my opinion about which size to order. It’s a headache since not only do the companies not use the same size charts, they don’t include the same amount of ease in their dresses.) I’m also not sure exactly who they are building these dresses for. They certainly haven’t taken into account the fact that more women have grown up athletic over the last couple of decades and have larger rib cages than women in the past. (Athletics = greater lung capacity = usually, a less sloped, more straight, and slightly larger around rib cage than past generations of women. Please note: this is *only* a generalization!)

    So – how many of us are about ready to say “screw it all” and just go naked? *grin* I like my body better naked than clothed anyway.

  45. zuzu – get pants made to fit all the way down to your ankles. it makes a world of difference. really. if you can find quality fabric that’s the end of the roll or otherwise on sale, even with the cost of the dressmaker, it’s the same or cheaper than buying resonable quality clothes off the rack.

    for every short woman who thinks it’s a pain in the arse to have pants too long, spare a thought for those of us who can’t make our off the rack pants any longer. and then bark ‘why don’t these things come in different lengths?’ in the direction of the clothing manufacturers.

  46. Almost all my clothes come from Old Navy; as a spoon with stubby little legs and gorilla arms, their larger sizes fit me really well. Don’t know what I’ll do if I ever change shapes, though. And even there the button-down shirts don’t fit properly. Argh.

    I got good-fitting bras at Target; they have pretty colors in non-padded microfiber bras, and they cost something like $16 each. A godsend for the cheapskate 40D girl.

  47. I just discovered that men’s clothes lie, too. I had always thought “thank god our clothes make sense, it’s just measurements!” but no, not so much. A 29 waist pant does not translate to a waist of 29 inches. This realization made me very sad.

    That said, wow, this thread is making me realize how easy we guys have it. Ugh.

  48. Actually, I sort of get the impression that the sizing for men’s clothes is so simple in part because most retailers and manufacturers don’t expect the majority of men to be there for the purchasing of the clothes. More clothes are likely to be sold when the person who is statistically most likely to do most of the shopping can buy clothes that fit without dragging her husband or son to the store.

    I firmly believe that men simply won’t put up with poorly fitting low quality clothes because they’ve never been led to believe that they should, and society doesn’t excessively punish them for failing to look stylish. In fact, society most often blames their wife or mother for letting them look so sloppy.

  49. I would like to know where people with “juniors” bodies can go to find professional clothes. I can find juniors clothes that fit, but women’s clothes do not. Yet I want to look like a professional adult at work. I cannot wear petite sizes, since my inseam is 34″. I usually have to wear the long or tall size — which rarely comes in size 0. Banana Republic and J. Crew only go down to 2 Long, which is too bad because I like how their suits look.

    I am shocked by all the short people who can’t find clothes that fit. I thought all these clothes were made for you!

  50. Laurie at 32: I live in a blue state and we’re considered socially liberal (insofar as the rich suburbanite women don’t want their gay hairdressers burned at the stake), but at the local mall, salespeople made jokes about my friend being a lesbian when she shared a dressing room with another girl. And people are real snobs 🙁 But yeah, I’ll probably get sick of ill-fitting pants pretty soon!

    Lizzie Bee at 39: You sound like a classic mesomorph – inverted triangle with a more prominent chest, straight waist and narrow hips. Angelina Jolie has that body type.

  51. PLN at 47 – I have a 27 inch waist, but when it comes to the European style sizes, I grab the 25, 27 and 29. And they’re different depending on the brand, too.

    drumgurl at 49 – I’m 5″4 with moderate length legs. I tried on a pair of Sevens, stood on my toes like a ballerina (or Kate Winslet in Titanic) and the pants still curled onto the ground. The Limited has a fairly good selection of work-type clothes and I’m pretty sure they have long sizes. Plus, a lot of bootcut pants are cut a few inches longer because they’re meant to be worn with heels, so maybe that’ll give you a little extra legroom (no pun intended 🙂

  52. When I got married three years ago, my dress was a 14. The woman fitting me seemed surprised I did not wail and insist I was much smaller than that normally (which I am). Oddly, my sisters wore bridesmaid dresses whose sizes were way, way smaller than normal. It was completely bizarre.

    It’s funny to hear that short women have as much trouble finding clothes that fit as I do (I’m 5’11”)! Who the hell are they making these clothes for, then?

    Generally speaking, I just wear men’s pants now. Life is too short for me to figure out what size I am THIS time. Grab me some 32-34’s and I’m out the door. Only thing is, that’s the same size my husband wears, so sometimes he steals my pants. 🙁

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