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The Sexualization of Girls

Rosa Brooks has an excellent op/ed in today’s LA Times about pedophilia, sex, capitalism and children. She manages to criticize the hypersexualization of girls without resorting to shaming the girls themselves — which is a sadly unique perspective, as conversations about sexualizing children tend to revolve around statements like, “Have you seen what girls are wearing today?” The traditional argument is that girls are dressing like “little hookers,” and the girls themselves are attacked. Brooks, on the other hand, goes after one part of the system that puts girls in this position:

In a culture in which the sexualization of childhood is big business — mainstream mega-corporations such as Disney earn billions by marketing sexy products to children too young to understand their significance — is it any wonder that pedophiles feel emboldened to claim that they shouldn’t be ostracized for wanting sex with children? On an Internet bulletin board, one self-avowed “girl lover” offered a critique of this week’s New York Times series on pedophilia: “They fail, of course, to mention the hypocrisy of Hollywood selling little girls to millions of people in a highly sexualized way.” I hate to say it, but the pedophiles have a point here.

There are plenty of good reasons to worry about children and sex. But if we want to get to the heart of the problem, we should obsess a little less about whether the neighbor down the block is a dangerous pedophile — and we should worry a whole lot more about good old-fashioned American capitalism, which is busy serving our children up to pedophiles on a corporate platter.


Read the whole thing.

And before we jump on the, “What are their mothers thinking?” argument when it comes to dressing children, check out Meghan Daum’s column. The beauty pageant culture creeps me out, but placing all the blame on mom is far too simplistic.

THE PEDOPHILIC undertones and general cheesiness were at the least grotesque. In the context of a child’s murder, the equation was all too easy to work: A child beauty queen, we reasoned, is an abused child. When an abused child dies, the obvious culprit is the abuser. Ergo, blame the mother. Now there’s an American pastime that surely predates baseball. Pointing fingers at moms probably even went on during the Paleolithic era; if some young Neanderthal displayed poor motor skills in his cave drawings, you can bet mama Neanderthal took the heat for spending too much time gathering berries outside the home.

These days, thanks to celebrity scolds like Dr. Phil and Dr. Laura, not to mention the increasingly vocal breastfeeding lobby (did you hear? a high percentage of Harvard rejectees were given formula as infants), we now have an unofficial consensus that mothers are to blame for everything except maybe global terrorism — and, come to think of it, can’t we blame Osama bin Laden’s mom for that?

Blaming mothers is such a cliche by now that even as we give it credence, we tend to laugh it off. But the case of JonBenet remains an extraordinary example of our unwillingness to give mothers a break.

Word.


157 thoughts on The Sexualization of Girls

  1. Man, speaking of beauty pageants and the sexualization of little girls, I saw Little Miss Sunshine last night, and it screams for a post. Go see it. The whole movie is basically the build-up for the final scene, which stands as a brilliant and multi-layered (and hilarious) commentary of that phenomenon.

  2. I’ve been dying to see it, but law school has been kicking my ass this week. Tomorrow night, hopefully, I’ll get to the theater.

  3. I second the Little Miss Sunshine rec–I haven’t laughed that much at a single scene since, well, actually since the last Steve Carrell movie I saw, 40-Year-Old Virgin (I will not abide by their faulty hyphens!). And I agree with the fact that we shouldn’t blame the girls–especially since a good chunk of the reason many girls, I would wager, wear the clothes they do is, that’s what their friends are wearing, or not even their friends, but “everyone,” and peer pressure is as strong on this occasion as ever.

  4. We are in the process of trying to find clothes for school right now. We are having a tough time of it…everything seems to show something. Tshirts are too short and show the belly, and pants hang too low on the hips to reveal would be back tattoos and require children to where thongs. Its enough to drive a parent insane. If the fashion industry isn’t trying to sexualize my 12 yr old, they are trying to pimp her out by making her wear clothes with their logos and brands plastered all over them….

    I don’t know what is worse…having my daughter dressed sexy, or having her be comfortable and relentlessly teased for dressing “like a dyke”…what the hell is that supposed to mean, anyway?

    And school uniforms are not the answer, either….remember Brittney?

    I’m eagerly awaiting the potato sack to come into fashion.

  5. Agreed, one viewing of Little Miss Sunshine is the antidote to 2 hours of CNN JonBenet coverage.

    However, the mama-blaming carries over somewhat even into that sharp commentary on the non-existent gap between pageant sexualization and perv sexualization of little girls. Mom is the one family member who insists on the finale, and while that makes it a great movie, it also supports the ‘moms pimping their daughters for twisted emotional gain’ theme that underlaid every mean word ever said about Patsy Ramsey.

    Who is shaming little girls? I share the outrage if that is in fact happening. However, I know no one who says, ‘Have you seen what girls are wearing?’ and dozens of people, parents and not, screaming ‘Why are the only affordable clothes for girls so revealing and sexy?’

    But that may be sampling bias in action.

  6. I struggle to patch together a wardrobe for my five-year-old. There’s just no such thing as one-stop shopping. I have a lot of quibbles with many of the older trends that filter down to young girls’ fashions. It’s more than just “too revealing” I think. No pockets, impractical pockets, inappropriate materials, etc, there’s a lot of stuff out there that works for college girls but not my kid. Fred Meyer (US department store) is lost to me now because after toddler and pre-K sizes it gets sexy and impractical. My point is, I guess, is that it’s just aping what my kid calls “teenager” clothes (she was ecstatic when I bought her a clearance pair of Old Navy jeans with a pre-ripped hole).

    Right now she’ll take frilly and sparkly in any form, so I take her to thrift stores and cover her up in cast off ’80s Laura Ashley dresses. I know this won’t work forever, so we’re having lots of talks about privacy and being in charge of your own body. I hope I can instill the idea that displaying yourself as a sexual person is for older people who are ready to deal with the consequences (good and bad), but we’ll see.

    Dude, it’s hard raising a little girl. Are they marketing banana hammocks to the parents of little boys yet? It feels like the other shoe should have dropped. I’m not saying I want people to be hypersexualizing little boys, I’m just surprised.

  7. I’m not saying I want people to be hypersexualizing little boys, I’m just surprised.

    The sexualisation of boys operates differently.

    For girls it’s all about learning to be an object that others are entitled to consume.

    For boys it’s all about learning to see girls and women as objects that only exist to be consumed by them. This is a process of sexualisation as well, one that involves plenty of misogyny and homophobia – and it is corrupting to healthy male development – but it just does not require boys to display their “beauty” in the same way or for the same purpose that is demanded of girls.

  8. However, the mama-blaming carries over somewhat even into that sharp commentary on the non-existent gap between pageant sexualization and perv sexualization of little girls. Mom is the one family member who insists on the finale, and while that makes it a great movie, it also supports the ‘moms pimping their daughters for twisted emotional gain’ theme that underlaid every mean word ever said about Patsy Ramsey.

    Blah blah, spoiler blah blah.

    I don’t think Olive’s Mom can really be accused of sexualizing Olive, and certainly not pimping her for twisted emotional gain. I read that as kind of a “we’ve come all this way and it means a lot to her” thing — it was Olive’s party, and her Mom would support her in it no matter what.

    The other Moms, however……….

  9. Here’s another angle on the sexualization of girls — the way that non-sexual situations are assigned a sexual meaning.

    As I mentioned on my own blog a couple of weeks ago, I recently watched the Shirley Temple movie Little Miss Marker, made in the early thirties. In the movie, Temple has been left by her father as collateral for a bet with a bookie, played by Adolphe Menjou, and the bookie has to figure out how to take care of her.

    The first night she’s with him, Menjou gives Temple one of his pajama shirts. Temple says matter-of-factly that she can’t wear her underwear (which looks like a one-piece bathing suit, pretty much) to bed, and Menjou tells her matter-of-factly to take it off. Which she does, on-screen, with the shirt for a bit of cover.

    The scene was shot frankly and straightforwardly — you even see Temple’s nipples at one point. There was an assumption in place at the time that children were not sexual objects, though, so there was no weirdness about it. The scene would be shot very differently today.

  10. My daughter is almost 18, but “little hooker” clothing was ubiquitous back when she was small, too. When a little girl grows out of 6X, which my tall girl did around age 4 1/2, the clothing choices become horrendous. I sewed quite a bit for her before she reached around 8, when dresses became unacceptable to her, but I then went to Lands End and Hannah catalogs, both companies producing very well made daily-wear clothing that lasts forever. I supplemented with Gap tee-shirts, which used to be well made everyday shirts and she wore shirts from her various soccer camps and family trips. I don’t know how such clothing is accepted by kids today, but we were pretty lucky in my daughter’s choices in clothes (jeans and tee shirts) and in friends, all of whom still dress in jeans or reasonable shorts and tee shirts for school.

  11. Brooklynite, there is a law professor named Amy Adler who has written about this phenomenon. She says our child porn laws amount to a “reasonable pedophile” standard, which causes everyone to view images like the Sears catalog as they expect a pedophile would. The result is that even people who don’t want to view children as sex objects begin looking for sexual messages in images of children, and of course find them. The abyss looks also into us.

  12. Surely the parents have to carry some, if not most, of the responsibility for what their children wear.

    My 6 y.o. daughter has quite a collection of Barbies. My wife & I are to blame for that — we bought the first one or two, and we’ve allowed her to save & spend her allowance on the rest.

    Now, who’s to blame for her wanting those Barbies so very much that she (at the age of 4) nagged my wife and I incessantly until we gave in? That’d be the Patriarchy, in the form of peer pressure, TV & print ads, and in-store packaging, all designed to make Barbie look like the most fun ever.

    Clothes are no different. If we’re talking kids 10 and under, they’re wearing clothes their parents bought and approved of. And it’s just not that hard to find clothes that don’t sexualize kids. And, at the same time, the Patriachy is doing everything it can to make sexy clothes the in thing.

    I also don’t quite buy Daum’s argument. True, Patsy Ramsey was tried and convicted by the Patriarchy’s willing army, the cops & the media, but John Ramsey got exactly the same treatment, making it more “blame the parents” than “blame the mom.” It’s also hard to overlook all the bizarre behaviour by the Ramseys after JonBenet’s death, and so draw any meaningful conclusions.

  13. As for us older girls still young enough to shop in the junior section, I don’t mind “sexy” clothes and, yeah okay even tend to like form-fitting shirts/jeans and short skirts. But I get annoyed when people complain about seeing older teen girls’ ass cracks. WE CAN’T FIND ANY OTHER PANTS, OKAY? We TRY to sit against walls, or wrap jackets around our waists when we sits, or wear belts, really we do, but we can’t be hypervigilant all the time.

    Also am I the only one who doesn’t think of thongs as necessarily sexual? I was introduced to them by a camp counselor when I was 12–laundry day came back and she had a ton of them, and she explained that she had a big butt so she liked to wear thongs so her panty lines wouldn’t show. Having a big butt myself, I thought that made a lot of sense and asked my mom for a thong when I came home (she complied). Since underwear rides up on me anyway, it was nice not having an awful lot to ride up. I didn’t switch to all-thongs all the time, but I did find them incredibly convenient.

    And in SPOILER FOR LITTLE MISS SUNSHINE land…

    I thought the Mom was also portrayed as the one who really cared about what Olive wanted throughout the whole film; she was the one who told Olive it was okay to be fat or skinny, whichever she wanted, and it was definitely okay to eat ice cream. She was also the one who thought it was okay to let Olive know the truth about Uncle Frank’s injuries, whereas the Dad thought it would be better to spare her. And the Mom did give her the option of backing out. Also, even if Mom had been totally championing for her to compete, Olive’s performance was such a triumph, and she was so obviously happy doing it, that I don’t think it would have been mom-blaming/shaming.

  14. You know the thing with thongs? They have to ride high to work, and when pants ride low, they’re going to show. And instead of a “I see London, I see France” thing, it’s turned into a sexual display.

    I was reading yesterday about that girl in Austria who’d recently escaped the man who’d snatched her off the street 8 years ago, when she was 10, and kept her in a windowless room under his garage. The story’s lede was all about the fact that she’d told police that there had been “sexual contact” with the man. Reading it, I felt like I was being turned into a voyeur. I mean, when a man snatches a 10-year-old off the street and keeps her for 8 years in a dungeon, it’s pretty much a given he will have had sexual contact with her. Does that really need to be the headline? The far more interesting bit had to do with the fact that she had had a brief reunion with her parents and had requested that they not visit for a while.

  15. Ok, I read the whole thing and I think hyperbole crept into it

    The little mermaid Ariel as an example of sexualization? ‘Cause she wears shells as a top???? Check out the mermaids in Disney’s 1953 Peter Pan … some of them aren’t wearing ANY tops (hair strategically placed) or the centaurs in Fantasia.

    This isn’t top-down conspiracy of “capitalism” delivering kids to pedophiles. Markets are driven by demand. Those pre-teens giggling in Abercrombie & Fitch won’t buy one “sexy” tee if dad or mom doesn’t fork over the bucks. And if enough parents refuse to buy the stuff, the stores are not going to have them hanging there next season.

    Last May I posted about a Frisco clothing company called “Pimpfants”

    Yep… Pimpfants…as in dressing your infant and toddler to reflect their inner gangsta … put your baby in a “baby beater” with slogans such as “sucka free baby” or “my mommy’s a m.i.l.f.”

    This company will not sell these tee’s if no one buys ’em! So the ultimate responsibility still lies in the individual. Period.

    I would urge parents of the k-6 or k-8 public schools as happened to my school district when my kids were young… organize and force them to adopt uniforms.

    A couple of words about pedophiles… they are “turned on” even by clothed kids. It was extremely self-serving by the pedophile quoted by Brooks to shuffle off his responsibility onto Hollywood. We have prosecuted a number of pedophiles, and they really compile tons of images….and lots of them come right out of clothing catelogues and circulars. If you get the dead tree Sunday paper, pull out the back-to-school adverts from K-mart, JC Penney, Wal-mart, Sears, etc. I guarantee you that somewhere some pedophile is looking at the same pics, clipping out and saving the ones of smiling cute kids in bathing suits or underwear or shorts or even tops with bare arms.

    Do we pass laws that say no child may appear in any print material? illustrations only?

  16. Here’s the right idea.

    HAMMOND, Ind. – Classrooms were a little less crowded at Morton High School on the first day of classes: 128 students were sent home for wearing the wrong clothes.

    Fed up with inappropriate outfits, the principal suspended the students for one day Wednesday, minutes after doors opened at the school. Those suspended represent more than 10 percent of the 1,200 total students.

    The offending attire — including baggy pants, low-cut shirts, tank tops and graphic T-shirts — are banned from classrooms. Students were also cited for cell phone use.

    Excellent!

  17. Hmmm….how much of a problem is this, really? I’ve gotta say, I don’t see “sexy” clothes on the grade-schoolers here (in Illinois), and I didn’t have any problem finding affordable non-sexbot clothes for my six-year-old. What irritates me in the clothing stores is the bratty messages I see on some T-shirts, particularly the ones referencing conspicuous consumption. And the teenagers aren’t really wearing any “sexier” clothing (nor are they any more brand-conscious) than when I was in high-school.

    I’m inclined to think the promotion of this issue (around here anyway—Illinois isn’t exactly home of the fashion plates) as a manufactured problem. And I gotta agree with Darleen on the hyperbole—seashell bikinis are hardly what I’d call “little hooker” clothing, for crying out loud (unless you’re coming from the perspective that for little girls to have swimsuit tops to begin with is ridiculous; I think a good argument could be made for that!). But I’m not pro-uniform, whether the uniform is required by the school or promoted by Madison Avenue—two faces of the same coin.

    I dunno. I’ve got a dog in this fight, and I can’t really be coldly objective about it. I’ve heard too much commentary about clothes that reveal any female shape as being “slutty”. I was/am subjected to that bullshit for my T-shirts and blue jeans, and I know like the sun will rise in the east tomorrow that in just a few short years my daughter will also be considered a “slut” by some folks just because of the way she’ll fill out those same T-shirts and blue jeans that were considered demure prior to puberty. My neck hairs go up when I hear talk about the supposedly “sexy” clothes being worn by “kids these days”.

  18. I struggle to patch together a wardrobe for my five-year-old. There’s just no such thing as one-stop shopping. I have a lot of quibbles with many of the older trends that filter down to young girls’ fashions.

    It’s even true for toddlers — our daughter is 2, and just getting her a plain T-shirt without a goddamn unicorn or rainbow or princess or some crap like that on it is a pain. A lot of her shirts come from the boy’s dept. There’s no rule after all that girls can’t wear t-shirts with bulldozers on them and that aren’t pink (stains look worse on pink than on dark colors, and toddlers are slobs).

  19. I was a kid in the mid-80’s and I had clothing that could be construed as “sexy.” Little spandex shorts… and I distinctly remember having a half-shirt. But I was six… so it was just cute. I mean, anybody who gets excited at the sight of a normal 6 year old in a half-shirt — my nipples hadn’t even THOUGHT about swelling yet and I had no discernible waist to hip ratio — clearly has a problem.

    I had a point when I started typing, I swear…

    Anyway, I don’t know if modifying clothing is that important to controlling the pedophile problem. Babies and toddlers have been preyed upon, but I don’t think you could argue that it was due in part to she/he being topless, wearing only a diaper. Men who rape women do so regardless of what clothing she’s wearing. People who rape kids probably operate the same way.

  20. Darleen, where can I, as a young college student, buy clothes that don’t have my asscrack showing?

    You’ll be hardpressed.

  21. Lorelei, if you’re really interested in non-hiphugging jeans, Levis, Lee and Wrangler make several varieties. I swear by Levis, myself. I’ve also seen catalogs like L.L. Bean, J. Jill, and the Territory Ahead that advertise traditional-fit jeans, though I’ve never tried them myself, so can’t vouch for them (they only advertise “Misses” sizes, not “Juniors”, so I’m not tempted to chance it, even though some “misses” cuts are actually “juniors”, if you know what I mean).

    They’re not the “hip, cool” brands, but if it fits well, and you feel like a million bucks in ’em, you make ’em hip and cool!

  22. For non-asscrack-showing (but still very cute and flattering) jeans, I’m a big fan of Paper, Denim and Cloth. The rise is a little higher than average, but not so high that it looks nerdy. The main problem is that they’re very pricey. However, they’re good jeans, and they last forever, so they’re worth the investment. And if you live in New York, Filene’s Basement has them on sale this week for like $50…

  23. Loreli

    What La Lubu says …. and it also depends on if you’re more a “junior” (not a lot of difference between waist/hip) or a “miss” (more hour glass). Levi’s work more for junior, Lee’s & Wranglers for misses. Lucky brand jeans offer some nice style… a little pricey, but sometimes it makes sense to splurge on one really good pair of jeans or slacks and accessorize with other bargains.

    Let me tell you, as a 52 y/o, 5′ 8″ woman, I too have a tough time find clothes that are both age appropriate, chic, fit well AND don’t eat up a full paycheck. Unfortunately, too many women my age try to dress like their teen aged daughters… and maybe that’s part of the problem. It’s a lot of older women who are willing to fork over $35-55 on a cheap colored tee only because it says “bebe” in rhinestones across the chest. Thus we are fueling what we then complain about.

  24. La Lubu

    I am pro-uniform because it works on so many levels.

    It eliminates the majority of problems of having to micro manage dress codes and listening to parents complain “what do you mean Mikey’s pants are too baggy? Did you do this to Timmy? Why are you picking on my Mikey?” It eliminates some of the bullying between kids when one kid is wearing a hundred dollar outfit from Gap for Kids and another is wearing $30 worth of clothing from Target. And for the parents, it is budget friendly and eliminates a lot of morning shouting matches over what is going to be worn to school.

    Talk to teachers in schools that have gone to uniforms. They will tell you the change in attitude towards school by the kids. It is much more “we are here to learn” then “we are here for you to entertain us.”

    A side note … #2 daughter started her mortuary science program AND at orientation they were told that they had a dress code…business casual/appropriate clothing in class. They are working for a professional license, and they are expected to dress the part.

    When I went to school … skirting the tar pits and avoiding the sabertoothed tigers on the way 😉 …. my closet was divided into school clothes, play clothes, and a couple of outfits of Sunday best for church. Then there was a drawer or two with “dressup” outfits for fun. There just was little confusion on the line between adults and children.

  25. Darleen,

    Loreli

    Lorelei.

    What La Lubu says …. and it also depends on if you’re more a “junior” (not a lot of difference between waist/hip) or a “miss” (more hour glass). Levi’s work more for junior, Lee’s & Wranglers for misses. Lucky brand jeans offer some nice style… a little pricey, but sometimes it makes sense to splurge on one really good pair of jeans or slacks and accessorize with other bargains.

    Lucky is a ‘little’ pricey? I don’t know what YOU do for a job, but even if I were able to have a job right now, I would have to be saving it to go to school and to move, not be paying $110 for a pair of ‘appropriate’ jeans. Or even $50.

    Thus we are fueling what we then complain about.

    Wow, I wish I were able to see an issue with such tunnel-vision.

  26. Oh, and uniforms don’t work to ‘stop teasing.’ It simply doesn’t. I was in uniforms for eight years of my life, in three different schools. I was teased in all of them. So were others. Except without differentiated clothing, we were harassed about more personal things — like our weight, like our personalities, etc.

    I would’ve much prefered to be harassed about something like wearing a cheap shirt.

  27. If you think school uniforms are going to solve anything… well, it’s been too long since you’ve been to high school.

    Adoption of a school uniform shows a complete lack of respect for a teen’s individual agency, when we ought to be trying to cultivate their agency. the complete failure to treat high school students as people is exactly why I have to deal with these… well, dumbasses, basically, at the university. Mere institutionalization is failing.

    Strict dress codes are going to stop our young people from being hyper-sexualized? Transforming math teachers into elite anti-teen-smoking operations officers has worked like a charm to end teen smoking, so why not?

  28. I don’t think uniforms really solve anything. Also, teasing is a fact of life. I think the problem of dressing very young girls in inappropriate clothing is a LOT different than *teenagers* in high school wearing baggy jeans or sexy clothes or spikey whatevers. Maybe people are disturbed by sixteen year old girls dressing sexy, and there are probably a variety of reasons for them to be disturbed, but it’s better than a six year old dressing sexy. I’m sure the sixteen year old is a hell of a lot more clued up as to what it all means.

    As was said, if people can’t tease about clothing, they will tease about something else. And if the uniforms aren’t provided by the school, but are meant to be purchased by parents (like, white shirt and black skirt/trousers, from wherever), then poorer parents are still going to buy cheaper uniforms than wealthier parents, and students are still going to be able to tell.

    I also personally happen to think that uniforms at a high school level stifle creativity. It’s one thing in very young kids who are being dressed by their parents (which is why the sexualization thing is disturbing, because it’s parents dressing little girls like that), but it’s another for high school kids who have a much better grip on who they are and how they want to express themselves. I honestly cannot see how baggy trousers are a problem for anyone, unless they are showing the whole ass. And isn’t school a better place to experiment with stuff like that, where you are sort of protected, than, say, downtown in a bar with a fake ID after you snuck out of the house, just so you could see what it feels like to be “sexy”? (I get that I’m using hyperbole, it just seems that in high school, kids will do what they like regardless of what you do.)

    The issue at hand is *little* girls being dressed sexily, which I think is a very real problem, and which is a lot different than what high school kids are wearing. IMO.

  29. For the non-ass-showing jeans thing, there is a brand in the UK called Go Vicinty/Road jeans. They are low-rise, fastening around the hips, but not so low as to be considered hip-huggers- they stay in place if you bend over or sit down. They aren’t nerdily high, to steal the phrase from a previous poster, and I like them because I hate it when anything binds around my stomach or waist, and they don’t get in the way.

    Also, they are made in the UK and are transparent, so each pair comes with a tag guaranteeing that they were made in good conditions for livable wages.

    But, they are pricey. About 40 pounds (roughly $80), which is the exact same price as a pair of non-ethical, skank-tastic jeans sold in the same store- GV/Road are a small business and only sold in CULT and Ark stores. They don’t even have a website, but you can find them on eBay occasionally.

    So if any of you are in the UK, check them out. Also, they make wide-legs, girly wide-legs that are actually fitted around the crotch and hips but don’t squeeze yours legs the whole way down. They are awesome.

  30. I mean, the fact of the matter is that I do not wear pants. I have exactly one pair of pinstripe slacks. I wear knee-length or longer skirts (which are practically impossible to find, also. Miniskirts are in every season except the winter, which is when I end up having to do most of my clothes shopping).

    But of course, you can’t win in society. Because I wear skirts all the time, people assume I’m ‘too prissy’ or high maintenance or snobby or pretentious… or too ‘goody-goody.’ But if I wear jeans — which are practically all only available in ass-revealing styles — I’m a slut.

    Goddamnit. Who doesn’t love dichotomies?

  31. School uniforms were orginated as a way to curb gang violence in schools.

    I was in high school when uniforms were the buzzword in all schools everywhere and I remember how it felt to think that the school would totally squash your individual expression and comfort by forcing you into some uniform. I had friends and not-friend who wore what the administrators deemed “inappropriate” attire to school, and were dealt with on an individual basis, because frankly, someone wearing a t-shirt that had a near-obscenity on it, or the dumb jocks wearing a sexist t-shirt was not hurting anyone else, justl like thongs and babydoll shirts, which as far as I can tell, hurt no one. Unlike wearing gang colors into an inner-city school, which, at the time, could get you and anyone around you shot.

    I remember blogging a news article a while back that an alarming % (like maybe 60%) of highschool students reported that the first amendment is “no big deal” and commented that apart from the fact that high schooler are in school for a reason, you present the same highschoolers with a school policy stating that they can’t wear their FCUK shirts to class, and they’ll become champions of free speech.

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  33. For jeans, I either buy men’s or go to an Old Navy outlet during the transition between seasons and snatch up the clearance “at waist” ones for about $15 apiece. Pockets, a low crotch…they’re basically men’s pants sized for women. If I were a parent, I’d definitely be shopping thrift stores for my kids, just because there’s more variety in styles and you’re more likely to find older clothing which actually covers the girl’s body. Also, since kids grow out of things like crazy, the amount of time that the clothes last is less of an issue for them anyway.

    I was the fourth (and last) child, so my parents didn’t start buying me clothes (or rather giving me money with which to buy clothes) of my own until I was almost out of highschool because I was perfectly satisfied with hand-me-downs, just as my cousin 3 years my junior is perfectly happy to have had my clothes when I outgrew them.

  34. Lorelei

    sorry for the misspelling.

    As I said before, YMMV according to what you want in pants/jeans/slacks. I only mentioned Lucky because my youngest (sophmore at SFSU) finds those the only ones that give her a comfortable fit (she’s short and hourglass) …but she both buys them on sale and supplements her wardrobe with funky buys from thrift stores. She has picked up her seamstress re-vamping from me.

    We are far from wealthy.

    Another nice pair of plain but hardworking casual slacks are Dockers.

    I don’t know who you hang with that judges you so harshly on skirts v jeans…pick another class of friends.

  35. Upthread people asked why thongs are considered sexy – I think it’s because they originated with strippers and also because they show more skin than other panties. Correlation doesn’t equal causation, but high-leg briefs offer maximum coverage but are not usually considered sexy. Then again, ideas of sexy vary a lot over time and between cultures, for example mangled, gangrenous bound feet were once considered erotic. And in some cultures (and warmer climates) women walk around topless but it’s considered no big deal at all.

  36. Darleen, I don’t think Lorelei was talking about her friends. She was talking about “people” in the general sense.

    As for being judged on skirts vs pants, though, that’s been an interesting part of doing interviews with law firms this week. A woman I go to school with did a practice interview with a local attorney, and wore a nice pants suit — and he told her that she should probably wear a skirt to her actual interviews. Because, you know, it’s more feminine and traditional. This was two weeks ago. In 2006. In New York.

    Just a thought.

  37. Tally Cola

    I have only been speaking specifically to uniforms for k-6 or k-8.

    I’ve actually been there, done that. My daughters graduated high schools in 1996, 1999, 2001, 2005, so you can figure the eras I’ve been through.

    Uniforms are not a panacea, but they do make a difference. Talk to teachers.

    Indeed. Teachers who actually respect their own profession and don’t go onto campuses dressed like their students also contribute to a serious and professional attitude on campus.

    And PUH-LEEZE, can we can the crappola about teens “right of free expression”? Teens are minors. Period. I realize that public schools have been doing their damnedest for several decades to erode parental authority, but minors are still the primary responsibility of their parents.

    As I told one of my daughters long ago during a usual teen fight when she pulled out the “It’s my body and I’ll do what I want!”… “No sweety. You’re not 18, you are not emancipated, and you live under MY roof. You’re body is MINE until that changes. Get used to it.”

    There is no reason, no rationality that explains why any school, even a high school, should be forced to allow – for instance – ANY tee-shirt with ANY writing or symbol (good or bad) — or tube tops, or gangsta attire, or bare midriffs, or platform shoes, or …..

    There are decent teens who come from dysfunctional parents; and there are dysfuntional teens who come from decent parents. But those exceptions don’t negate that in most cases dysfunctional teens come from dysfunctional parents as well as functinal teens come from functional parents.

    The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves

  38. I don’t ‘hang out’ with people who think that way. I am perfectly capable of good judgement when selecting friends and I put it to use, don’t worry. But you know… I go to school, I used to go to work, I go to open mics… all places you must interact with other people. And that is the attitude a lot of times. These aren’t people that I get deeply involved with or anything, but I do have to interact with them on some level.

  39. If you don’t think it’s the parents fault you aren’t thinking very hard…. I always get a good laugh out of the “evil corporation” argument. They are more reactive and PC than any politician. All it takes is consumers going somewhere else to change a companies behavior.

  40. School uniforms stifle creativity, freedom of speech and agency ?

    Only if you think that “wearing clothes that your friends say are cool” is the pinnacle of adolescent creative and expressive development.

    Here’s an idea: how about teaching school-kids to create, express themselves and show responsibility in other ways ?

    Like through art, poetry, storytelling, film, photography, drama, dance, sculpture, technology, innovation, engineering, design, home maintenance, cooking, health, sport, nature conservation, gardening, volunteer projects, neighbourhood regeneration, mentoring, charity campaigns…

    Students who are otherwise dressing themselves on a budget can use charity (thrift) shops, sales, surplus, home made. See, it’s even a little bit creative.

  41. Only if you think that “wearing clothes that your friends say are cool” is the pinnacle of adolescent creative and expressive development.

    So the possibility of peer pressure is worse in terms of stifling creativity than the certainty of administrative dictates? I don’t see why the potential for self-expression in other areas doesn’t mean that this potential for self-expression is worth protecting.

  42. Here’s why I’m not pro-uniform: First, you end up having to buy two sets of clothing for your kids—school uniforms which are absolutely, positively not to be played in (schools don’t seem to care if kids are wearing jeans with a hole or grass stain at the knee, but won’t allow the same for the fancy chinos), and regular play clothes for everywhere else. I enjoy the fact my daughter goes to a school that doesn’t have uniforms, because I save money by only having to buy one wardrobe.

    Next, uniforms are more expensive than regular clothes. I know, I know, designer kids clothes are much more expensive than uniforms, but I’m not buying designer clothes. Around here, the uniform supply companies know they “have you” if your kid goes to a uniform school, so those clothes are priced accordingly—instead of $20 for a pair of jeans, it’s $45 for a pair of chinos. Instead of $12 for a shirt, it’s $35 for the school-approved polo. Bah! Saying no to uniforms means saying yes to more money in your wallet. You have to be damn poor to receive clothing assistance, so it’s an added burden on working class people. Middle-class folks who are already buying their darlings Seven jeans for $170 a pop won’t notice the bite, but I sure as hell will!

    Also, most of the schools around here who use uniforms are private schools. Their cliques aren’t marked by clothes, but by the accessories. Expensive jewelry is one way to separate the social classes there, so I’m not buying the idea that uniforms are a great leveler.

    Finally, some of the public schools around here have or are pushing for uniforms. What do the uniforms look like? Slacks and polos. Not a problem…..except…..the schools with the uniforms are in poor schools, and the uniforms look a lot like Best Buy or other clerk-type uniforms. And that is how the idea is presented to the children; that “we all have a uniform to wear for work, so this is your uniform for school.” B.S. First of all, we don’t all wear a uniform to work; in fact, most of us don’t. And most of the people who do have a lot of latitude in that uniform (think: medical personnel); latitude that the schools aren’t allowing. When I was my daughter’s age, I was already painfully aware of the low expectations set for me by society at large. You can’t convince me that some of those kids going to school in their Best Buy colors aren’t thinking the same thing.

    Don’t get me wrong: some clothing regulations at school make sense. But there’s no sense in throwing the baby out with the bathwater and regulating the crap out of clothing choices. Now, I like the idea of the “no visible brand name” rules some schools enforce; kids will still wear the brands with the label cut off—but it tends to get them thinking about the importance of that label to begin with. And any school that wouldn’t consider blue jeans as being an appropriate part of a school uniform is just being silly—thick denim is durable and doesn’t require ironing. I have yet to see a school that has jeans as a choice in the uniform.

    /soapbox.

  43. instead of $20 for a pair of jeans, it’s $45 for a pair of chinos. Instead of $12 for a shirt, it’s $35 for the school-approved polo. Bah!

    Junior slacks $19.99, jumpers $9.99, Blouses, $9.99, Polo shirts $9.99 Sears

    And a lot of schools have dress codes that state “clothing must be clean and in good repair”

    My budget was thankful for uniforms because school clothes rarely had to be replaced during the year due to being ripped from falling off a bike or splashed with paint during play and then becoming unacceptable for school.

    The vast majority of people that work DO wear one kind of “uniform” or another. Since I work at a courthouse, you bet I have a dress code…and any, ANY member of the public walking into a courtroom has to conform to the dress code posted on the courtroom door.

    Appropriate dress for the occassion is as an important lesson for children as appropriate behavior for a location.

  44. La Lubu, I agreed with everything you said but this:

    Middle-class folks who are already buying their darlings Seven jeans for $170 a pop won’t notice the bite, but I sure as hell will!

    Maybe we have different ideas of the middle class, but I consider myself middle class and the absolute most I will consider paying for jeans is around $30-$40. Anything else is a waste of money, and I can’t afford $170 jeans anyway.

  45. Lorelei, I have the exact same problem regarding pants. I have a high waist, so low cut pants don’t even have to be hip huggers to start verging on dangerous territory. Also, I spend a lot of time on barstools and that doesn’t really mix well with the current jean style.

    I basically do the same thing: I wear only skirts. I haven’t bought a pair of jeans since I was 17 (24 now.) It is almost impossible to find “decent” jeans. I have a pair of at-waist cargo pants from Old Navy, but they’re not really my style so I mostly use them for biking. I can sometimes find at-waist pants in thrift stores, but it takes a lot of searching. The idea of spending more than $50 for a pair of jeans horrifies me (but I’ll gladly drop the same on a couple of bottles of premium scotch or bourbon, so to each their own.)

    As for the uniform debate: I went to a Catholic school K-8th grade. We had the standard uniform, but it certainly didn’t stop kids expressing their sexuality. As early as 4th grade, the girls in my class were finding ways to fold the tops of their skirts to create minis, seeing how many buttons they could get away with, etc. I don’t have a problem with uniforms per se, but anyone who thinks it solves the problem of teen clothing is kidding themselves. It just recreates the same issues on a more subtle (but no less potent) scale.

  46. As for being judged on skirts vs pants, though, that’s been an interesting part of doing interviews with law firms this week. A woman I go to school with did a practice interview with a local attorney, and wore a nice pants suit — and he told her that she should probably wear a skirt to her actual interviews. Because, you know, it’s more feminine and traditional. This was two weeks ago. In 2006. In New York.

    When I started practicing in 1997, I could not wear pants to work. In New York. Granted, my firm was a bit on the conservative side, but still. Within two years, it had broken open and pants were perfectly acceptable for work, but there’s still an issue with interviews and court (I remember being in Kimba Wood’s court in 2000 with another female associate, and we would check out what was coming out from under her robe to see if we could get away with pants. When we saw pant legs, we knew we were safe).

    Lorelei, for skirts, you might consider making your own — they’re really easy, and you can often get fabric really cheap. Check out Sew Fast, Sew Easy. For jeans, I’d hit thrift shops or Old Navy. LL Bean’s waistbands are practically at the armpit.

  47. And PUH-LEEZE, can we can the crappola about teens “right of free expression”? Teens are minors. Period. I realize that public schools have been doing their damnedest for several decades to erode parental authority, but minors are still the primary responsibility of their parents.

    Darleen, this utterly confuses and conflates the school with the parent. The school, an agent of the local government, is not the same thing as a parent. The right of free speech as against government runs in the student’s interaction with the school, but not with the parents. See generally West Virginia v. Barnette,319 U.S. 624 (1943); Tinker v. Des Moines, 393 U.S. 503 (1969). Teens are not, in US constitutional law, “minors. Period.”

    Now, I do expect mine to do what I tell him. But you decry the schools’ alleged attempts to erode parental authority, and I don’t see how this has to do with whether students have a right to speak as against the school. I get to tell my kid whether or not to go to church but the school does not. I get to tell my kid whether to pledge allegiance to the flag but the school does not. I get to tell my kid that he can’t wear his kilt to school but the school does not. I get to tell my son whether he can wear a button in support of the teachers’ union but the school does not. Long story short, the ideas my son gets to express and the manner he get to use both must meet my approval; but the school can only weigh in on the latter. If the school tries to prevent him from wearing a shirt that protests a war, or the corruption in local government, or that supports a union, or exercise other unreasonable restriction on his right to express a political view, unless it happens to also be a view that I’ve told him I don’t want him to express, I’ll back him. (And my firm will represent him pro bono.)

    There is no reason, no rationality that explains why any school, even a high school, should be forced to allow – for instance – ANY tee-shirt with ANY writing or symbol (good or bad) — or tube tops, or gangsta attire, or bare midriffs, or platform shoes, or …..

    Again, see Tinker. One of these things is not like the other. Maybe the current court would limit Tinker and adopts a view that barring all clothing bearing messages is acceptable, if the case came up. When I was in middle school and wearing my pins demanding that my parents’ employers meet my parents’ union’s demands (it was a big issue in my community), the school had no legal right to prevent me from doing so and if they had done, the ACLU would have backed me. I believe that remains the law. Do you know of controlling authority to the contrary?

  48. Lorelei, I have the exact same problem regarding pants. I have a high waist, so low cut pants don’t even have to be hip huggers to start verging on dangerous territory.

    Me too. Long legs and a high waist are not conducive to pants buying. I usually wear skirts too, and I’ve also gotten the prissy/stuck up comments a lot. Even from my family, who should know better, and they always point to my skirts and say that I overdress as evidence of prissiness. However, I’ve found that NY & Co has decent pants (both jeans and for work) relatively inexpensively with higher waists and longer inseams.

  49. Who is shaming little girls? I share the outrage if that is in fact happening. However, I know no one who says, ‘Have you seen what girls are wearing?’ and dozens of people, parents and not, screaming ‘Why are the only affordable clothes for girls so revealing and sexy?’

    Your question brought to mind this infuriating article from the Washington Post, written (worryingly) by a clinical psychologist, which blames girls for wanting to dress revealingly and parents for failing to forbid it. Sample quotes:

    Women once complained about being reduced to sex objects. Now, their daughters are volunteering to be sex objects. And while parents register disapproval, they often fail to take action. In that failure, they unwittingly place their daughters at risk by allowing them to bypass girlhood. When a daughter moves straight from little girl to woman, she’s playing a role rather than gradually learning to live her own life. These girls may seem whole, but they aren’t. There is often a lost girl inside.

    Many who endorse provocative styles of dress have picked up on the liberal message of the ’60s and taken it a step further. They see those who express distaste over the sexually explicit as hung up, old-fashioned. One young woman pointed out to me, “It’s almost politically incorrect to say that something is inappropriate.”

    However, the kid-blaming really took off in the discussion which followed the article. The most mindboggling exchange (of many):

    Alexandria, Va.: I enjoyed your article a lot, Pat. I’m a man, and not a young one, and see lots of these outfits at the local shopping center. I always feel a bit guilty looking at these young women as sex objects, though it is hard to resist I must admit. Of course if someone dresses provocatively it is not MY fault, I’m not rude or overt while looking, but it can be a dilemma for even a male person.

    Pat Dalton: My husband says this all the time. You can’t not look at what you see in front of you. And men are highly visual, moreso than women when it comes to sex. And again, the responsibility falls more on the person dressing like this than the person who sees her!

    Or, in other words, yes, your paedophilic inclinations are entirely the fault of the child!

    (There was also a stunning, though less relevant, moment when a commenter wrote in about a ‘friend’ with a small frame and DD chest who received unwanted attention in the workplace. The clinical psychologist’s response? Get a breast reduction!)

  50. In a culture in which the sexualization of childhood is big business — mainstream mega-corporations such as Disney earn billions by marketing sexy products to children too young to understand their significance

    I think this is the conversation we need to have. First we need to be clear about what we consider “sexualization”. I disagree that Disney is marketing “sexy” products. They’re pushing the hell out of pink and girly, but I find Disney to be rather prudish.

    Unlike many people, I do not see specific kinds of clothes as being sexier than others. I just don’t understand why a cropped top on a young girl is upsettingly sexy. Of course, I don’t see a four-year-old masturbating as sexy, anymore than a fixed cat humping a doll would be.

  51. Finally, some of the public schools around here have or are pushing for uniforms. What do the uniforms look like? Slacks and polos. Not a problem…..except…..the schools with the uniforms are in poor schools, and the uniforms look a lot like Best Buy or other clerk-type uniforms. And that is how the idea is presented to the children; that “we all have a uniform to wear for work, so this is your uniform for school.” B.S. First of all, we don’t all wear a uniform to work; in fact, most of us don’t. And most of the people who do have a lot of latitude in that uniform (think: medical personnel); latitude that the schools aren’t allowing. When I was my daughter’s age, I was already painfully aware of the low expectations set for me by society at large. You can’t convince me that some of those kids going to school in their Best Buy colors aren’t thinking the same thing.

    …Yeah, a lot of the uniform pushes in my area seem to have some pretty troubling implications about homogeneity, given that the kids they seem to eager to cram into polo shirts and chinos for being inappropriate tend to be neither white nor middle-to-upper class.

    I don’t like uniforms. They enforce conformity. They are justified by a stereotype of kids as gormless and unimaginative, such that they wouldn’t know what to do with the freedom to dress themselves if they had it. They represent a really invasive level of restraint. They also don’t necessarily have any more in common with parental values and preferences than those ass-slogan sweatpants; I don’t like this implicit alliance of school preferences and parental ones. My parents would have taken their children out of school before letting us attend in uniform.

    They also seem totally unnecessary; there are ways to set dress codes that don’t force everyone to wear the same clothes in the same colors every day.

  52. There is something of a whiff on this thread of treating minors as though they are sexually inert until some magic age, when I started having my period at 11 and absolutely had to wear a bra starting in 4th grade. I think realively young girls (i.e. 10-14) have started having ‘sexual’ feelings, about their own bodies and others. That is normal. What the clothes that marketers are so anxious to sell them actually do is move up their experimentation with how their sexuality can make others react to them. Again, a normal part of growing up, but the earlier girls start being attunded to this stuff, the earlier they can be sold on whatever combination of clothes and grooming products will garner the most approval. The level of approval you get as a woman in this society for approximating anything on the same planet as long hair, small butt, decent sized cleavage wrapped in the latest fashions is like crack. And refusing the crack at an age when you are not too sure about yourself anyway is difficult at best (maybe for men it would be like having the athletic ability to quarterback a football team, even though there is very little chance you could actually make a living that way in the long run and could get seriously injured). Some people dropped out of my all women’s college because they did not anticipate how difficult it would be to feel good about themselves without the constant come-ons and men noticing them in a positive way. So in that since, there is ‘complicty’ on the part of girls, but I don’t see that there is much effective choice for not getting hooked on the approval you get as a girl for showing the physical evidence of your sexuality in some overt way.

  53. Darleen (and the pro-uniform crowd): What, exactly, is wrong with baggy pants? If one is critiquing the trend of kiddie fashions that sexualize young girls—aren’t baggier clothes a good thing?

    (I ask this partially in jest, of course. Crackdowns on baggy jeans and baseball caps have nothing to do with “appropriate school attire” and everything to do with race issues.)

    Besides which, uniforms send the wrong message (conform! at work and at school!), and leave kids unable to distinguish “appropriate” from “inappropriate.” I went to a school with a very loose dress code. Half of my friends went to a Catholic school with uniforms. Guess which group of kids had more problems with drugs, teen pregnancy, and bullying?

  54. What exactly can you put on a t-shirt that’s going to be more than briefly disruptive? Seriously, how long can even a teenager giggle at a smutty shirt? I wonder if, technically, my t-shirt with lobsters picking naked people out of a tank is inappropriate to wear to the kids’ school.
    I’d be peeved if I had to put the hellions in uniforms, since I prefer to save up my laundry until the blue-green mold entirely permeates the rounds – er, I mean until we run out of clothes, and that would require quite a number of uniform pants.

  55. I think a problem with the class thing in the US is that the middle class is everything from a guy who makes 30k and spends 75$ on pants since he is an odd size and can just wear the same ones every day, to an upper class woman who wears $1-$5 pants she gets at the thrift shop to be trendy. It’s a large range.

    Also, baggy pants aren’t allowed because they are associated with those scary scary blacks. Is it me or do schools with minority students end up with more of these uniform codes than other schools?

    In another tangent, my mom got yelled at by a parent because her child came to school without a belt so mom made him wear a pink belt. wtf?

  56. As a parent, I’d be completely psyched to have uniforms in my local system. Cheap, easy, thoughtful, and (if they’re done right) a good way to demonstrate to your kids the difference between what IS really “important” and what is NOT really “important.” Clothes are in the latter category, don’t y’all think?

    More importantly, they reduce discretion, and reduction in discretion reduces potential for discrimination. I went to a high school with “flexible” rules, and if you think the privileged folks get as much shit from the admins for having “improper” clothing, well, i’ve got a bridge to sell you.

    Don’t get me started on “girls must wear skirts” uniforms though, those suck.

  57. The female lawyers wearing skirts thing is serious. No way would I ever appear in court in pants. You have to remember that you are representing your client, not yourself, and in that situation, representing your client takes precdence over freedom of expression. If the judge is even subvertly biased against you for what you are wearing, whether it is pants, dreads, or a tinky winky pin, you are doing your client harm. If you want to wear whatever you want, be a performance artist, but forego law school.

  58. I blogged about sexualized clothes a while back. I think it’s an important topic.

    It’s one reason I’m not unsympathetic when I hear the “poor boys, the girl fried their brains” meme. I mean, I’m the mother of a boy, and he goes to school with girls wearing these sexbot costumes, and YES it fries his brain, and NO I’m not blaming the girls, I’m blaming the culture that is dressing these girls (because face it, we none of us dress ourselves, the culture always has a role).

    But it’s a legitimate complaint. It’s legitimate to say sexualizing our daughters affects our daughters AND our sons.

  59. Uh, Darleen, are you serious when you think that the majority of say, Catholic schools, let you buy your uniform stores at ‘regular’ stores?

    NOSIREE. You MUST buy the school’s uniform at THEIR APPROVED UNIFORM STORE. You best believe that a skirt will be $40, a pair of slacks $45, polos all $35 each. And you CANNOT use polos or slacks from other stores because at least in the US Christian schools I have seen, the schools’ logos are on the polos and pants.

    We don’t have public schools with uniforms around here, so I don’t know about the situation there. But in a Christian school, no, you cannot save money in any way.

  60. Cheap, easy, thoughtful, and (if they’re done right) a good way to demonstrate to your kids the difference between what IS really “important” and what is NOT really “important.”

    Doesn’t telling a kid that she must wear a uniform sort of place a whole lot of importance on clothes? As in, “We can’t trust you to make your own decisions about what to wear.” And from other comments in this thread, it sounds like uniforms are often not cheap, easy, or thoughtful.

    More importantly, they reduce discretion, and reduction in discretion reduces potential for discrimination.

    Therefore, not requiring uniforms is racist.

    I’m joking. Really, I don’t think this is a very good justification for uniforms. One could argue that there’s an equal degree of discriminination in not allowing kids to wear what they want, since the privileged kids, it’s assumed, are the ones who would dress “well.”

  61. It should also be said that plenty of fashion decisions are made by teenagers who find certain materials itchy or allergic, certain pleated skirt lengths too revealing, and certain layers of jackets atop blouses too warm.

  62. Another thing that bothers me about uniforms — or even dress codes — is the heteronormativity about them.

    I attended a Catholic high school for 10 days; my friend still goes there so I still know the policies. Girls had a choice of four styles of pleated plaid skirts, two slack colours, and four shirts. The shirts were yellow, blue, pink, and white. Boys had a choice of two slack colours, and three shirts; yellow, blue, and white.

    You would be sent home, as a boy, for wearing a pink polo shirt.

    And the fact that girls *could* wear the slacks doesn’t make it less heteronormative, because even in 10 days at that school, I witnessed A LOT of harassment directed towards girls wearing slacks. They were considered unfeminine, and bottom-line, ‘dykey.’ This seems to be the case in other Catholic schools. Another friend of mine knows a girl who wears the slacks from the uniform at their school, and even the teachers imply that the girl is a lesbian.

    Anyway, the rest of my year and a half of high school was at a public school. We practically had no dress code except ‘no nipple, no asscrack.’ And I think some rule about no tshirts with violent imagery or words.

    Hell did not break lose. The kids were able to, ON THEIR OWN imagine that, distinguish what was mostly appropriate for school and what wasn’t. In the summer, most boys wore shorts and a plain t-shirt, and girls wore a short sleeved shirt, a skirt that covered enough, and usually some sort of high-heel or sneaker.

    But there were always a few teachers who would arbitrarily ‘enforce the dress code,’ which keep in mind, was nonexistant. And who usually got reprimanded and picked on? Girls. You know, like a girl wearing a tanktop in 104 degree weather and then being told that she needs to go home because her tanktop ‘reveals cleavage.’ Or because you can see her tummy when she raises her hand.

    I’ve never seen a boy sent home for wearing jeans that were baggy and therefore exposing his boxers, for being able to see HIS tummy when he raised his hand, or anything of the sort.

    Also, the cleavage issue bothers the hell out of me. I’m an A-cup, so I have no cleavage to speak of… but my best friend is a DD-cup, so I witness this problem every day for her. She can never find any warm-weather clothes that do not show cleavage. When she was in high school she would feel paranoid of her teachers, but not only that, she was convinced she was a slut because of the lack of covering shirts. It was really upsetting, because I’ve been clothes shopping with her, and clothes that do not show cleavage on bustier women DO NOT EXIST.

    Anyway, what also bothers me about the cleavage thing is the lack of corresponding rule for males, and the fact that usually in handbooks its listed purpose is to help minimize ‘distraction’ of male students. Ugh.

  63. Baggy pants? Why in tarnation do people see that as a problem?

    In my area, the problem with baggy pants is that they ride down to display the wearer’s underwear (brand name boxers for the boys, invariably thongs for the girls).

    …Yeah, a lot of the uniform pushes in my area seem to have some pretty troubling implications about homogeneity, given that the kids they seem to eager to cram into polo shirts and chinos for being inappropriate tend to be neither white nor middle-to-upper class.

    The school my girlfriend’s kids go to implemented a strict dress code (uniforms). The school is about 75% jewish. The kids I saw dressing inappropriately were all white, well to do kids.

    Long story short, the ideas my son gets to express and the manner he get to use both must meet my approval; but the school can only weigh in on the latter.

    This is the reason that our school implemented the uniform policy. The principal told me that she was sick of sending kids home for being dressed inappropriately (thong-displaying low rider jeans and “pornstar” t-shirt, for example) and then having the parents give her shit for “stifling little Suzie’s creativity”.

  64. Another thing I liked about not having uniforms in high school was I FINALLY got to figure out how to dress nicely for when I had a job, for when I went to college, etc etc. It’s amazing how little you pay attention to how plainclothes look on you or whether they’re flattering or not or appropriate when you don’t have to wear them for 8 hours of the day. Not having a uniform actually helped me figure out how to dress appropriately and nicely.

    I guess YMMV, though.

  65. (I ask this partially in jest, of course. Crackdowns on baggy jeans and baseball caps have nothing to do with “appropriate school attire” and everything to do with race issues.)

    Do only minorities wear baggy pants and baseball caps where you live? Around here, it’s pretty much the required teenager uniform (regardless of race).

  66. As I told one of my daughters long ago during a usual teen fight when she pulled out the “It’s my body and I’ll do what I want!”… “No sweety. You’re not 18, you are not emancipated, and you live under MY roof. You’re body is MINE until that changes. Get used to it.”

    I know this is true, and this may be a little OT, but does anybody else object to this? The fact that we have such a severe cut off for “adult” and “not-adult”, “citizen” and “property” is a bit jarring to me. I’m still young enough to remeber being under 18 and chaffing at my parent’s arbitrary restrictions, such as attending church, even though I had rejected the faith years ago.

    At 14 I was smart enough to drive a car. I could be tried as an adult if the crime was particularily heinous at 13. I could get a pilot liceanse at 17, and I was already involved in politics at 12. But none of these things matter, because under the eyes of the law I was my parents property, with a dollar amount assigned, and had practically no ability to exercise my rights as a citizen (because I was not a citizen).

  67. RM, Darleen went on a diatribe against the very idea that teens have any cognizable interest in free expression. I was taking head-on the idea that there was no right to core political speech for the public school student, an idea that as a matter of established precedent is at odds with our Constitution.

    What you have described are two different things. Showing thong, under the existing jurisprudence, barely has a speech aspect (see, e.g. Barnes v. Glen Theatre, 501 US 560 (1991) and a good argument exists that it is disruptive. Under Tinker, that makes these regulations fair game.

    The “Porn Star” tee shirt, however distasteful on a high school student, has more speech content and less conduct about it. It is less likely to be an actual disruption (not like gang colors and racist symbols, which can be an immediate cause of violence). The wearer is neither actually engaging in sexual conduct by wearing the shirt, nor exposing more skin than in a similar shirt bearing a different message. Rather, the wearer is only expressing an idea about sexuality, albeit in a rather provocative way.

    How does one word a policy that prohibits that, that is uniform, fair and viewpoint-neutral? And that does not, say, prohibit a student from wearing either “I’m not gay but my boyfriend is” or “Leviticus 18:22”?

  68. I am not adopting the reasoning of Barnes, BTW, which is conspicuous for its intellectual dishonesty. I’m saying that it is the law, and it stands for the proposition that sexual display for erotic entertainment is barely speech.


  69. Do only minorities wear baggy pants and baseball caps where you live? Around here, it’s pretty much the required teenager uniform (regardless of race).

    Well, it’s been a long time since I was in high school. But my partner is a high school teacher who gets to witness a lot of dress-code enforcement. And the “no baggy pants” rule is instituted almost exclusively at schools with large Black populations, even though kids of all ethnicities dress like that. It stems from a fear of hip hop culture, which maps fairly cleanly onto a fear of Black people.

  70. To elaborate on agreeing with Antigone:

    My mother was like that. I was in no way an independent human being able to make my own choices about anything. For quite awhile, the clothing thing was a biiiiiig huge deal. At 14 I became ‘goth’ as far as my mother is concerned. She fought against it like all hell, even though the tackiest thing I was doing was wearing chains very rarely. Her reasoning was exactly that legally, my body was her body and blah blah blah. Over the years, my style became more ‘refined’ — I wear long black skirts, pretty black tops, tasteful boots. But she’ll still sit there and complain about my tights being ripped up because it supposedly makes me look ‘trashy.’ But it isn’t a fashion statement, I’m just too lazy and poor to buy new fishnets.

    Anyway, the whole ‘your body is my body legally’ bullshit was a component of why I started self-injuring and restricting food. There were many other reasons, of course, but it also felt pretty satisfying to basically say, ‘Nuh uh, it’s still my body, you can’t force me to eat or make me quit cutting myself.’

    She did it because she, I think, had huge control issues and felt the need to impress everyone. As far as she was concerned, I was an extension of her existance. When I still wore sneakers, I had a pair which I wore so often and for so long that the backs ripped off. She offered me $50 to buy new sneakers, and I politely declined, explaining that I really liked my sneakers because they were very comfortable. Well, THAT WAS JUST NO DAMN GOOD, because what will people think?! People on the street will look at me with my fucked up sneakers and think that we’re poor!! …? If people look at me and think that my family is poor, what will happen? Even if they said ‘OMG YOU’RE SO POOR’ to my face, who the hell cares? I don’t know.

    Yeah, in therapy I’m still working on seeing myself as a different entity than my mother. It’s been a rather detrimental issue.

  71. Lorelei,
    That sort of thing should be considered abuse. I’m really sorry your mom put you through that, even if she was an otherwise wonderful mother (I don’t know, but she’s your mom and I don’t want to insult).

    I have a friend with a teenage daughter who just graduated high school and is starting college now. She’s pretty goth, but she’s also just about the most well adjusted, reasonable, and independent girl her age I’ve ever met–in every respect a truly good kid. And I teach high school seniors and college freshmen. I think it was because her parents stressed the important things, like being responsible, taking care of herself, and treating people with respect, and not how many chains she was wearing or what color her hair was at any particular moment.

    My own personal rule for my boys is that they can wear pretty much whatever they want (so long as it is appropriate for the occaision–i.e., their grandmother would take it as a serious sign of disrespect were they to wear some goth fashions, etc., to the temple with her) and I don’t care about makeup, hair, or other things, but permanent changes, like tatoos, have to wait until they are 16 and they’ve shown me that they are mature enough to deal with it. But then, they’re 4 and 1 right now and I still pretty much dress them (except the 4 yr old won’t go anywhere without his Darth Vader cape lately), so I figure I have a good long time until those fights begin.

  72. We told our 11 and 12 year old boys they can do anything non-permanent so long as they are brining home the good grades. The younger one got grounded for 2 weeks because he refused to change out of a dirty t-shirt before church, wearing the same under another shirt and taking the top shirt off during Sunday school. There are some places where showing up with dirty, ripped clothes, unless you are in fact homeless, is just pure disrespect, and meant as such. Anyway, we don’t have a ton of rules but we won’t accept non-compliance with the few we do have.

  73. I went to a high school with a uniform which was one step up from a dress code for the first couple of years and then, under a new and extra-keen head, became ever stricter until I was glad to be old enough to leave.

    It was the perfect example of how NOT to have a uniform.

    It came in a girls’ variety and a boys’ variety, which was trouble for me for reasons I hope I don’t need to spell out. It didn’t cut down fashion-related bullying in any meaningful way – the cut of the skirt or the kind of shoes you wore would earn you plenty teasing (a vegan with size 8 from age 14, I had to wear men’s shoes, so I got called a transvestite. Right, in a way).

    As the keen head got into his stride, things got worse. The old rules allowed any sweater from any store with a school badge sewn on; in my final year it became the overpriced sweater from the school supplier or a detention. And the first five minutes of every lesson (ie time during which we could have been learning) were wasted on an inspection of who had forgotten their tie, who had a button illegitimately undone and so on down the nonsense.

  74. And echoing what LaLubu and piny said, the one justification for uniforms that holds up is one I don’t agree with: “You have to do all kinds of mindless crap in the world of work so we’re just preparing you for it.” When people say that, I can respect their honesty but I’d be nervous about them teaching my daughter.

  75. Um, since when is the “approval” one gains from dressing like what men want you to look like “crack?” Approval? You try to play around and have some fun dressing in something “cute” or “sexy” and instantaneously, you get descended on like a goddamned steak in the dog pound — with just as much snarling and predatory staring, I can tell you.

    Approval? Crack? Being hit on by disgusting, grotesque, slimy-looking older men and being treated like utter, utter trash by boys your own age? Yeah, maybe if Daddy’s rich, you can get away with dressing in cute clothes when you’re 15 (and that’s debatable itself), but when you’re family’s working-class, you are a fuckdoll and you are prey if you dare to step one toe into the waters of wering a cute or tight top. I’m 40, and I’m finally feeling comfortable enough — as I am moving out of that predatory, vicious male gaze, to start wearing cute little tops.

    When people go on about how wonderful it is to be “approved of” by males who snarl and sniff around you like wild animals (and no, I’m not going to back down from that characterization) the second you wear a pair of goddamned shorts and who would flip from “hey, baby” to “YO FUCK YOU STUCK UP BITCH!” upon one turn-down, I wonder what planet they’re on.

    Yeah, cuz it’s so damned fabulous to be followed around by drunks at parties and get whistled at and followed by homeless guys who want to prove that they might be on the skids but you’re still just some gash and don’t you forget it you fucking bitch, to say nothing of fending off guys who want trophies and long-term relationships that you learn were based on the Big Lie of “I love you for your mind, really” …

    It’s so goddamned WONDERFUL, it’s such CRACK to have that APPROVAL. Yeah …

  76. Agree with Darleen and add that pedophiles are not turned on by clothes so much as availability. No age was so rife with sexual abuse as the Victorian era (much to Freud’s chagrin), and one could hardly say that was a period of hyper-sexualized outerwear.

    With so much else to be concerned by, and you all are wasting words on the clothes kids are wearing? Well, call me the antichrist, an anarchist or both, but I’ll shake my cane at a few other things in my old age.

  77. Regards school uniforms … we wore them in my own high school. I remember the girls there had no problems with it — mostly because the subject came up. We honestly didn’t care. I didn’t and still don’t. They were cheaper than having to buy a full week’s worth of clothes, lasted for the whole four years, and you didn’t have to worry about what to wear — which was the big draw of the things when the topic came up and we informally started talking about it. You just got up and got dressed and were off. It was fast and easy and for my one-paycheck-away-from-poverty family, it was a shitload cheaper than outfitting me in jeans and shirts and pants and whatever else would be required.

    We also had the occasional “free dress day” where we got to wear our own clothes, and it was fun and frankly a lot mroe effort in the mornings.

    “Individuality” and “creativity” should do more than show up in a damned mirror, and no they don’t even vaguely start there. Our school was filled with girls who sang, girls who got incredibly high SAT grades (of which I was one), girls who were amazing artists, musicians, budding scientists, political active … The uniforms didn’t prevent anyone frmo knowing who the rich kids were, but that’s not why they were there. They were cheaper for families like mine, they were faster in the mornings, and they were easier. What, like you can’t recognize someone by their face?

    There is this really perverted gulag-fantasy that a lot of adults have when the subject of school uniforms comes up. We weren’t prevented from having opinions, or engaging in the first amendment with our mouths or our minds. I distinctly remember upsetting the priest who was teaching our class when I began persuasively arguing in favor of women priests, starting to turn the minds around of everyone else in the classroom, and he suddenly swerved to change the subject. I don’t recall my mind turning brown and white houndstooth like my skirt, nor did I become obedient and dull. Teenagers will always assert themselves; you need have no fears on that account.

    I’m also reminded of a story that surfaced in the newspapers back in Phila about a male flasher harassing girls at Goretti (St. Maria Goretti High School). He thought — like most of you do — that Catholic schoolgirls must have been cowed and obedient and good little brides of Christ in training, and not the bruiser-working-class-wop chicks we are. They chased him down, tackled him, and beat the hell out of him before the cops showed up to haul him off. Oh, those poor girls, with their minds stunted by their uniforms that made them into cowlike, vacuous little minions of the patriarchy …

  78. sabotabby, I can’t argue with you on the “Conform!” part of your views on uniforms, but I would point out, with respect to the following, that correlation does not equate with causation:

    Besides which, uniforms send the wrong message (conform! at work and at school!), and leave kids unable to distinguish “appropriate” from “inappropriate.” I went to a school with a very loose dress code. Half of my friends went to a Catholic school with uniforms. Guess which group of kids had more problems with drugs, teen pregnancy, and bullying?

    A lot of factors feed into the problems with Catholic schools, and most of the factors relevant to a higher incidence of drugs, teen pregnancy, and bullying fall under the category of non-reality-based teaching about these subjects. To wit

    1) A belief that mandatory religious education will do a better job than fact-based education about the effects of and drugs, unprotected sex at helping kids make sensible choices.

    2) A culture that insists that in the hierarchy of vice, it’s worse to have pre-marital sex with contraception than to have pre-marital sex without. Essentially contraception compounds the sin.

    3) A culture that prizes conformity at all levels and demonizes difference, and one in which students who are persecuted by their peers are told to emulate Jesus and turn the other cheek.

    4) A paedogical outlook in which sexuality education is the province of teachers of religion.

    The relucatance on the part of teachers and administrators in the Catholic school board to acknowledge that their doctrine isn’t working when it comes to getting kids to make sensible decisions for themselves, that “Thou shalt not!” is not a good enough reason for a teenager, has a lot more to do with the problems experienced at Catholic schools than the existance of a uniform, however ugly, unsuitable, or ill-conceived.

    I went to a school with a pretty rigid uniform. Those of my classmates whom I see now seem to have a pretty good grasp of what constitutes appropriate couture for a given occasion.

    So, while my anecdotal evidence is not superior to your anecdotal evidence, I’d say that we need to look beyond the coincidence of uniforms and teen pregnancy, etc., for the causes of the latter.

    Lorelei,

    I wear an E-cup, most days, and don’t have too big a problem finding non-revealing summer clothes, when I want to. Granted, I don’t mind showing a bit of cleavage, and I have a fairly small frame, which makes it easier to fit into some things. Also, I work in a dress-code-free office (well, our dress code is “wear clothes, top and bottom, please”). For days when I want to cover up I have a collection of reasonably high-necked summer t-shirts and tops. I stay away from button-up blouses, because they often gape if they’re not tailored properly, but jersey-cotton shirts that show my collar bones but leave my cleavage to the imagination (like the one I’m wearing today), aren’t too hard for me to find.

    I hate American Apparel’s advertising, but I really like this style of t-shirt. Looks fine with jeans and summer skirts. It’s a bit pricey, but most t-shirts I’d actually wear are, and I prefer to avoid sweat-shop-produced clothing (sigh, someone’s probably going to blow the whistle on AA and disillusion me now, and I’ll need to start sewing t-shirts in my copious spare time.)

    If I actually had to wear tailored shirts and blouses to work, I’d be in much less happy straits.

  79. No. Sorry guys. Anyone who sees ANYTHING a little girl wears or says or does as overly sexy is wrong.

    When I was 10 years old I wanted to be Madonna or Cyndi Lauper (It was 1985). My friends and I were allowed to dress however we wanted at our hippie private school. Every day we wore mini-shirts, cropped florecent shirts, fishnet socks, bracelets, dangly earings, whatever. We were simply expressing ourselves.

    To imagine that people looked at us as dressing slutty or tempting fucking sick ass men is WRONG.

    Naked kids on the beach should not be looked at as sexual. Kids sitting on your lap or wearing little dresses should not be thought of as sexual. It’s simply not.

    I don’t know where all of you get off saying girls dress slutty and all girl’s clothes are stripper clothes. I’VE BEEN SHOPPING. You’re just complaining and trying to be superior because your daughter doesn’t dress like a hooker. Whatever. Like all these people said, the pedos don’t care if your daughter has on a ski suit or a bathing suit.

    On the other hand, girl children are often very beautiful creatures. I’m not sure when it became wrong to notice that one as well.

    Anyway, the whole “5 year old girls dress to sexy” thing is a psycho American paranoid made up issue. Get over yourselves.

  80. Janis, I don’t disagree with you. I have spent most of my time in micro-societies where the attention is very real, but not nearly so overt or obnoxious as what you are describing. As I got out in the world more, I realized what it looks like with the veneer of suburbia, ivy league school, and law school stripped away. However, one quickly learns even in these rarified environments, that if you conform to the hotsy ideal, you do get some unwanted attention; but if you don’t conform you just get ignored. You are not datable because you don’t have the right look. And even if you have the right look, it can all be negated by enrollment in honors classes etc. I spent all of high school dating people from other high schools for that reason, even though I’m sorry to say I wore the tight jeans and high heels like I was supposed to and stayed a size 8 or so. The other girls in AP classes shared my undatable fate, even though my best friend was a tall, blonde and blue eyed life guard. Law school was so uniformily geeky that I suddenly felt like I suppose the drill team members at my high school felt on the days they got to wear their mini-skirt uniforms to school (I stood out becasue there was a dearth of the Alicia Silverstones of this world in that particular environment). You are certainly right that socioeconcomics can expose women to unwanted sexual attention that is far more intense and imbued with a sense of entitlement on the part of the men. Returning to the main theme of this discussion, when hypersexualization of the young becomes the norm, young girls can stumble into these awful situations not realizing that unlike Brittany, they don’t have body guards, and their family situation does not convey the creditible threat of violence by her male relatives; of course, we all know how the cops treat sexual harassment complaints by poor women and most would not even bother. However, for girls like the Alicia Silverstone character in Clueless, the “look” can give you the ability to strut through a high school gently pushing approaching boys back against lockers as they try to speak to you, and having 5 people ask you to prom. Girls want to be your friend because your hotness will get them dates and status as well. It’s pretty crack-tastic because you don’t SEE the downside of all this adulation until you realize that your whole identiy is invested in your looks, and the rest of your personality, including intellect is a very underwatered plant with brown leaves.

    There’s a younger woman I practice with taking what I call the short skirt short cut to advancement. Her dress is so over the top for any woman over 30, but incomprehensible for a lawyer. 3 inch heels every day, tank tops (and she’s got fake DD’s), low rider pants that show her thong. She can’t see past the superficial attention of some of the men (a great many really don’t appreciate the fact that once their wives see her, they don’t want their husbands to ever work late again, and steer way clear), to realize that she has no women friends in the firm and the primarily female staff openly tries to sabotoge her practice. I think her identity is too tied to her super hot looks, which her dress accentuates, to give it up and think that people will probable like her A LOT MORE and she would be taken more seriously as a professional. Here’s the kicker. She told me she went to a primarily male engineering school, and with my outside voice I mistakenly said, “You must have been very popular there.” Instead of taking that as a slap, she smirked and said,”Well, after all, I was a cheerleader.” Going to a mostly male school to get even more attention is just the coup de gras. She does not seem to be letting the unwanted attention get her down, in other words.

  81. jennie,

    I think it has more to do with age, also. My friend is young enough — and small enough — to be shopping in the juniors’ section. I’m tall, so I can head on over to petites or women’s and still find things that fit me correctly, but with her body shape and height a lot of things from those sections hang on her strangely. So in juniors’ sections, it’s hard to find things that cover up your cleavage. I’m sure that when you are able to shop outside of that section, it won’t be such an issue… but until then, she’s having a lot of issues with it. And a lot of my friends in my age bracket who have large breasts have that problem, too.

    Also we live in a small town with exactly one shopping center in the entire county… so we are basically required to buy things from our tiny mall/mall area, and therefore we lack selection to find better clothes.

  82. Also, I just want to say that you are *damn right* that my clothes are part of my individual self-expression. And damn right I have other ways to express myself and damn right I express myself in those other ways. But I am a very visual-oriented person, so my clothes have a lot to do with the personality I portray, the way I feel about myself, and the kind of person I am. Does that mean I’m stupid and don’t artistically/intellectually express myself? Hell no, I definitely do those things. But it is quite important to me.

  83. … if you conform to the hotsy, ideal, you do get some unwanted attention; but if you don’t conform you just get ignored.

    I’m not seeing the difference in some ways — YOU are always ignored. Your legs aren’t, your ass isn’t, your tits aren’t … but either way, YOU are ignored. ther eis no way for a female of any kind to be regarded any other way in this culture. Either YOU are ignored and left the hell alone to be safe, or YOU are ignored and have to fend off sexual predation in the process.

    That lawyer you specify must be one brick-stupid woman not to see it, or else she’s deeply in denial. Lots of women nowdays I’m convinced suffer from a sort of Stockholm Syndrome because there is no escape from sexism, and they know it. The men are stronger, more powerful, more violent (I’m not going to waste my damned time defending that to ANYONE who quibbles with it, look up the damned figures and then try to whistle a different tune) and have all the money and influence, and they know damned well that unless they can blast off for the Moon where only the women run the law firms, they’d better play by the frigging rules. I’ve wondered sometimes about whether my own bullheaded refusal to play and insistent awareness that that form of “approval” means the approval of the master forthe house slave is actually a good thing for me. If I could have played the trophy wife game, I’d have cannily married rich, then put up with him for fifteen years until he divorced me upon my 40th birthday.

    I’d have gotten a house and some alimony out of the deal. Instead, I can see the whole ugly, repulsive superstructure and I can no more participate in it than I can make my legs bend backwards at the knee. Because I know what it is — and I can’t fathom a woman who is smart enough to make it through law school, and simultaneously stupid enough not to see the whole truth of what she’s taking part in … again, unless she just figures that she might as well because men are stronger, violent, have all the money, and will be in charge of this earth for her entire tenure upon it, so she’s got to make herself play the rules.

    It disgusts me to imagine having to communicate all that to a teenager in the form of paterntal fight over a goddamned pink fucknig tank top. God, how awful and draining it must be to raise girls and to have to see them go off and negotiate what their mothers must know int heir bones is a lose-lose situation. But frankly, I’d rather be ignored than predated upon.

  84. Janis, indeed I can’t figure that woman out for the life of me. I don’t dress to turn my male colleages on, but sadly I do cop to dressing feminine enough so that they won’t stand around speculating about whether I am straight. Also, when you get them drinking they will admit that the clients like to work with me in part because of my looks, and if you play the whole thing right you are not in much danger of being seriously sexually harassed – you are just a little eye candy to sweeten the deal. Indeed I don’t think I’m going to wake up one day and find law firms being run by women (except maybe Ann Coulter types- a real expert at trading on her so called looks, and then I’d be doomed anyway), so my successful sisters and I do tend to play the “game.” Our incomes and education just put us in somewhat better shape to quit the field at the end of the day on more of our own terms. Even more sadly, being married to a martial arts instructor helps a lot because then you are off limits to over sexual overtures for fear of violent and effective retaliation. Not an easy matrix to explain to a young girl.

  85. Yeah, I was lucky enough to escape the gulag of the juniors’ department–mainly by being fat. (well, too fat for the juniors’ section). Heh.

    Lorelei, your friend may want to buy tank tops and make the straps shorter (easy enough–cut off part of the strap and then sew it back together)–and while petite sections in department stores usually suck, there are occasionally some decent basic pieces that don’t reveal too much cleavage.

  86. Yeah, I was lucky enough to escape the gulag of the juniors’ department–mainly by being fat. (well, too fat for the juniors’ section). Heh.

    Me too! Big in general, really. It took me forever to figure out why three-quarter-length sleeves were called that, because they only ever came down to my elbows.

  87. Maureen,

    Thanks. She already does stuff like that, lol. Lots of layering, too, which sucks a bit in the summer but I guess you do what you’ve gotta do.

    Even I have to make adjustments with my clothes so I don’t look bad, for example either buying skirts a bit too small so that they’re higher-waisted or buying really long shirts. There’s this weird tendency in juniors clothes and some petites to have normal shirts and skirts barely meet in the midriff.

  88. and the primarily female staff openly tries to sabotoge her practice

    BMC, if your staff is sabotaging your lawyers, fire the staff. They don’t get paid to make moral judgments. They get paid to do the work.

    Which reminds me, you left out an important fact: can she practice law?

  89. Lots of women nowdays I’m convinced suffer from a sort of Stockholm Syndrome because there is no escape from sexism, and they know it.

    That is such a perfect description for that situation. I’ve been looking for that sort of concise phrasing for the phenomenon for a long time. Thanks. 🙂

  90. Darleen- I brought up the high school link because the article you *cited* was about a high school.

  91. I have to agree with Edith that it does seem to me to be kind of an American issue, what with just general panic over pedophilia. That’s sort of catching in the UK though, as well.

    But, I also agree with the original article about selling sexualized things *to* little girls. It just seems sort of weird and wrong. I mean, yes, Barbie has been around forever, but there was never a baby version of Barbie that “flaunted it” and had collagen-lips, like the Bratz Babyz. There has to be a line *somewhere*. I think the issues just get conflated, when a little girl is just dressing up and being a little girl and when a little girl is dressing up in something that someone has consciously marketed as sexy, to little girls. Something’s wrong in that equation.

    I stand by uniforms not solving anything. All the teachers I had growing up were against them. I grew up in Canada, in a part where not even in the Catholic schools wore uniforms, (only the richest, most private and/or fundamentalist schools) and I now live in the UK, where uniforms are the status quo. There’s really no difference in the amount of young girls dressing sexy, or other problems. Friends who grew up here said they didn’t mind having a uniform, friends I grew up with had no problems with *not* having a uniform. It’s sort of a non-issue- keeping in mind that in the UK there seems ot be a lot more flexibility as to what a kid can wear in addition to their uniform, as opposed to the extremely strict school-branded uniforms the private school kids at home wore.

  92. A lot of factors feed into the problems with Catholic schools, and most of the factors relevant to a higher incidence of drugs, teen pregnancy, and bullying fall under the category of non-reality-based teaching about these subjects. To wit

    1) A belief that mandatory religious education will do a better job than fact-based education about the effects of and drugs, unprotected sex at helping kids make sensible choices.

    2) A culture that insists that in the hierarchy of vice, it’s worse to have pre-marital sex with contraception than to have pre-marital sex without. Essentially contraception compounds the sin.

    3) A culture that prizes conformity at all levels and demonizes difference, and one in which students who are persecuted by their peers are told to emulate Jesus and turn the other cheek.

    4) A paedogical outlook in which sexuality education is the province of teachers of religion.

    ??? Maybe Catholic schools in Western Canada are incredibly liberal, or I was unkonwingly stoned the entire twelve years I attended them, but what? We were taught all about the facts, we were taught how to use condoms and birth control, and we were also taught that most of the bible is the myth. Catholics /= fundies. (I accept that, in some communities, Catholics do come closer to fundies, however, and have more influence on the community.) There were only 2 pregnancies in my graduating class of 600, both of whom attended school right up until their due dates (there obviously could’ve been a few more, but there were about 700 of us at the start of high school and 600 at the end- and you have to take into account the amount of those that were dudes, the ones that moved-away, and the ones that dropped out for non-pregnancy issues). I’m not saying life was great for them, but it wasn’t at all the way religious schools are painted in a lot of these posts. Maybe it was the exception to the rule. If so, that makes me sad.

  93. Unkonwingly= unknowingly. Unknowingly stoned indeed! 😉 Also forgive the unnecessary hyphens.

    I’ll stop spamming now.

  94. Re: “baggy pants”

    It is gang attire and it became gang attire because it was adopted from prison attire.

    When a kid (any race) with a 24 inch waist is attempting to walk across campus to his next class while cluthing his 54″ jeans to keep them from falling to his ankles, it is not a “race” thing at all.

    Emulating gangbangers is as recommendable as emulating Ted Bundy.

  95. What about when they are wearing baggy jeans because they like them, and not because of gangs?

    Like when I did, all through high school, and no one cared.

  96. Tally Cola, you are lucky to have gone to a Christian school like that. That sounds really great. I do also think it has to do with the fact that it was in Canada, also. As far as I know, in Quebec, kids are supposed to have a real sex ed. Not so in the US, even in many public schools.

    At my school (Catholic) we were just told in 8th grade that contraception and sex of any kind was PURE EBILLLLL and we weren’t even told what kinds of contraception exist. In high school, I had ‘health class’ when I was a sophomore and we were told what kinds of birth control options exist, but not how to use them or where one could obtain them.

    My younger cousin (13) goes to Catholic school in the US. Once, he was with me during a family thing, and I was pulling things out from my purse to look for something and I had to pull out my condoms (I get them and carry them around for friends who may need them, I’ve never had intercourse). I said something about being sorry for whipping out my condoms in front of him, and he asked me what condoms were used for anyway.

    !!!!!

    I think you should definitely know that at 13, no matter when you plan on ever having sex.

  97. Thomas

    I wasn’t on a diatribe and I was appealing to reason and rationality, not the law (and we both know that sometimes the law and common sense don’t always see eye-to-eye).

    Certainly, a student legally maintains certain rights when they step onto the campus…but you know schools operate in loco parentis (or they are supposed to). The primary mission of a school is to educate the students and any serious distraction to that mission must be considered. So teachers can demand that cell phones be turned off during class, confiscate iPods, and demand the cessation of any behavior that can or may cause problems.

    One of the easiest and fair ways to deal with “bill board” tee-shirts is to just ban them. If a student wants to engage in political advocacy or bible reading, they can do it at lunch time verbally.

    Once a school allows one message, they are hard pressed to ban others.

    Oh… Antigone?

    Yes, the age line is arbitrary. But not only are minors the responsibility of their parents, in many circumstances parents are legally culpable for the behavior of their children. If a teen thinks they can take care of themselves, they are free to seek emancipation before 18.

    Tally

    My post just above that one I said specifically about uniforms for grades k-6 or 8. I only cited that article about a high school that is fed up with their dress code (non-uniform) being ignored.

  98. You are not longer able to seek emancipation in New York state except in exceptional and dire circumstance.

  99. Andddd I’m somehow doubting that anything will happen to you legally if your kid wears a lowcut shirt.

  100. Tally

    When the dress code says “baggy” they are talking about extreme… IIRC many codes specified 8-10″ bigger than one’s normal waistline…at that point the pants would ride so low that a good 6″ or more of boxer underwear would be showing.

    “Loose fit” jeans/slacks don’t fall under that classification.

    The fights over clothes take so much time in so many schools, some just take to banning denim all together.

  101. Perhaps someone could explain to me how any gang could get anything antisocial done with their pants falling down? As stupid fashions go, this one seems fairly harmless in that anyone who adopts it is less able to perform mischief.

  102. Thomas, to answer your question, here is the really sad part. She is pretty much the pet of the managing partner, who gives her lots of great work, thereby compounding the jealousy thing among attorneys in her department. However, behind her back, he tells the partners her work has a lot of mistakes and has to be run through a junior partner before it gets to his desk. So she thinks she is destined to move up, but no one is truly mentoring her (part of which is telling you when your work is not up to snuff so you can fix it). I’m not a litigator and I’ve never seen her in court. I have to say though there is no way I could personally stand on my feet and cross 3 experts in her patent leather platform boots, but she does it without limping after 12 hours. My paralegal was a witness to the boot thing.

    As to the staff, you don’t don’t think a bunch of battle axe legal secretaries are stupid enough to do open mutiny, do you? No – they’ll just have an emergency if she needs someone to stay late, or quietly say to a new staff member who goes to help this woman with something, “She can do that herself.” Or they’ll see an important fax come in for her and just leave it sitting. The other women attorneys hate her so much they would never correct the staff and the men don’t notice that kind of thing.

  103. I do wonder if the woman I practice with was sexually abused at some point. I have a difficult time accounting for her behavior otherwise.

  104. Some of the sexualized clothes also make preteen girls (not necessarily really young ones who are under 10) look like older teenagers. When I was 10 or 11, I used to put on my mom’s makeup for fun but she wouldn’t let me wear things like dark lipstick out of the house (except on Halloween lol) because it made me look like I was much older. Looking older means that you will get treated like you are older, and often by strange men that means in a sexual way. For some of them, it might be alright to hit on a 15 year old, but not an 11 year old; however, they would probably hit on an 11 year old who looks like she’s 15.
    As for the clothing, I suppose there’s nothing inherently sexual about any article of clothing – as I mentioned upthreat, bound feet were considered incredibly erotic in their era and locale, and of course in the West in earlier eras, hair and ankles were considered arousing, although few men today would bat an eye at seeing a woman’s hair or ankle. However, I have to question the taste of putting a preteen girl in outfits that suggest stripper’s or prostitute’s outfits. I would guess that a majority of girls that age probably wouldn’t know what strippers and prostitutes do (depending on how much sex ed their parents or school give them, and whether it’s the sperm-and-egg stuff or of a more sociological bent). And in that case, it’s a little weird to put a girl in an outfit that she doesn’t understand the implications of.

  105. ‘Baggy or sagging pants’ were not allowed in my school district’s dress code. The rationale they gave was that it is easier to conceal a weapon in extremely loose-fitting clothes. Why they didn’t outlaw backpacks for their weapon concealing properties will have to remain a mystery.

  106. You see, I think many kids think that the baggy pants are cool because of rappers and other children in the school area that model these pants. The kid may have never even heard of gangs in their area or if they have, don’t want to be in a gang, but want to take some of that cool masculinity for themselves in the form of wearing baggy pants.

    It’s like why a girl who doesn’t even know what a porn star is wears a porn star shirt. Other people wear them, and she wants to fit in and be like the cool kids. The problem is that people who know what a porn star is are getting a message that the girl might not want, and through thier reactions, she’s getting a message about herself that may be negative.

  107. No – they’ll just have an emergency if she needs someone to stay late, or quietly say to a new staff member who goes to help this woman with something, “She can do that herself.” Or they’ll see an important fax come in for her and just leave it sitting. The other women attorneys hate her so much they would never correct the staff and the men don’t notice that kind of thing.

    Gee, I wonder why her work has so many mistakes. This story is making me feel a bit ill. Sure, you can go through a super-duper feminist critique of the way this woman chooses to dress and whatnot and you might get a big ol’ gold star for it, but the bottom line seems to be that she’s being punished professionally for dressing like a dirty little whore and that’s pretty fucked up. But that’s just the opinion of one large-chested woman who can’t exactly help but reveal some cleavage at work, especially during the summer when it’s in the 90s and humid as hell.

  108. So the possibility of peer pressure is worse in terms of stifling creativity than the certainty of administrative dictates?

    On balance I’d still go with the uniform. Even with non-uniform there will still be restrictions, some sort of dress code, so it’s not really a choice between no rules (“freedom”) or rules, it’s between slightly different rules.

    Uniform needn’t be expensive or impractical or even particularly restrictive, the school can organise it so that it isn’t.

    The school admin., if not operating well, will create problems whatever the kids are allowed to wear. Uniform is just part of a package for building respect and boundaries in order to create a decent school environment .

    It should go along with things like a properly implemented anti-bullying policy, anti-discrimination, and removal of the bizarre double standards around students who make the school sports teams. (None of these should be shot-down as restricting “freedom of speech” either).

  109. You can’t not look at what you see in front of you. And men are highly visual, moreso than women when it comes to sex.

    Any man who genuinely respected women and doesn’t consider himself entitled to their bodies as wank-objects will notice how a girl or woman is dressed and then probably just think about something else. The lechers are choosing to be lechers because of their basic attitude towards women’s function in life (ie girls must be available to provide service for him).

    And this idea about men being “visual”, and women not, needs dumping in the trash along with the whole women are irrational/men are not emotional thing.

    Women are very visual, like men they respond to many (not just sexual) visual stimuli, in many ways. It is the attitude of the viewer towards the thing that is being viewed that is relevant, not the supposed “visual-ness” of the “male” brain.

  110. Looking older means that you will get treated like you are older, and often by strange men that means in a sexual way. For some of them, it might be alright to hit on a 15 year old, but not an 11 year old; however, they would probably hit on an 11 year old who looks like she’s 15.

    Huh? I was an “early developer”, but in no way, shape or form did I look “older”. I looked like a grade-school kid with boobs—scrawny except for the breasts. I was an uber-tomboy who never wore makeup or anything coquettish, but it sure as hell didn’t stop grown men from asking me for blowjobs, telling me I had a nice ass, telling me they’d like to fuck me. Now, you could argue that because of the breasts, they probably just thought I was “older”, but considering I was wearing kids’ clothes and carrying my Peanuts lunchbox to school, I don’t think that holds up. Bah! These guys know the age range; they just don’t care. The Midwestern saying is “old enough to bleed, old enough to breed.”

    To uniform or not to uniform? The solution is simple; parents who want uniforms should dress their children in uniforms, and parents who don’t, shouldn’t have to. Uniforms should not be banned or forced—that way, everyone is happy, no?

  111. Funny aside re baggy pants.

    I was having a conversation with a prison guard (in criminal defense clinic in law school) he explained to me the effect of baggy pants on arrestees. He LOVED them.

    “See,” he said, “these guys all wear baggy pants. You know, the kind that are 10 sizes too big.”

    “Yeah,” I said, not getting it yet.

    “And they’ve all been BOOKED IN.” He looked at me meaningfully.

    “Yeah,” I said, still not getting it.

    “Where we confiscate their belts,” he said.

    “Oooooh,” I said, starting to laugh. “NOW I get it.”

    “Yeah,” he said. “Then they’ve only got one hand to start shit.”

    Literally 75% + of men in the lockup were holding up their pants. My client was also holding up his pants. Who would have thunk? WHo knows if he was right, but he swore it cut down on fights.

  112. Even with non-uniform there will still be restrictions, some sort of dress code, so it’s not really a choice between no rules (“freedom”) or rules, it’s between slightly different rules.

    Having gone to a high school with a dress code, and having had a bunch of friend who wore uniforms, I think that’s significantly understating the difference. My high school dress code forbade t-shirts with writing or logos on them, bare midriffs, shorts above the knee (although not short skirts, which always struck me as really dumb), and hair color that couldn’t be found in nature. I seriously pushed the boundaries of the last one, but I still found a lot more latitude for self-expression than the Catholic school kids who had to wear a designated skirt, a white shirt, a designated cardigan, regulation shoes, and no jewelry except a small cross.

    I’m not that fussed about uniforms, but to argue that they’re no different from a dress code is dumb.

    I was recently talking to someone from Northern Ireland who pointed out that uniforms are a problem there, because Catholic and Protestant kids go to separate schools, and therefore it’s possible to identify a kid’s religion by his or her uniform. That makes it very easy to identify kids on their way home from school and target them for sectarian bullying. Obviously, we don’t have a directly analogous problem in the U.S., but school uniforms do identify what school a kid goes to, and I do wonder if that wouldn’t be a problem for some kids. Will the nerds from the magnet school get picked on more when everyone back home can identify them on sight?

  113. Raging, I am farily defensive of women’s choice of dress. However, when someone I work with sits in a chair at a firm social event, and my husband can see all the way down her butt crack to where her thong become somewhat wider than the string part, I feel the dress has become grossly inappropriate for the cirucumstances. Add to the fact that she drifts around discussing her marital problems (advertisment for I’m available for something on the side), brings videos of herself on vacation in a swimsuit to work and shows it to other attorneys and clients who are otherwise trying to conduct business, and gets rip roaring drunk every so often forcing other attorneys to escort her back to a hotel room (thereby opening them to unwanted speculation), I feel there is a problem. I would say the same stuff about a super ripped guy wearing hot pants and tank tops at a law office to show off his cut abs and butt. If he also stopped in to tell me I look thinner and he understands my emotional problems, I’d call foul – there are some temptations no one should be required to endure. But my threashold for that stuff is very very high. This is a very extreme situation.

  114. BMC, one of my mentors in the practice of law stood 5’11” in stocking feet and wore 3″ or 4″ heels to court. She found that towering over her opponents and looking down at the witness gave her an air of command. What you are describing is, of course, something different.

    The politics of firms vary. At some places, office managers aggressively target secretaries that always seem unable or unwilling to help out or to misread the edit marks of only the lawyers they don’t like. Other firms let crusty old secretaries run the office.

    Everyone is doing this lawyer a disservice. It sounds like she’s an associate. She needs someone to tell her what’s wrong with her work so she can develop. She needs someone to tell her that her behavior is undermining her in the eyes of the partners and of the clients, because attention != respect. She needs to build bridges to the other litigators instead of alienate them, because it’s a lot tougher to make it as a lone wolf. Neither the lawyers who coddle her and criticize her behind her back, nor the staff that tries to trip her up, are doing her any good.

  115. If her clothing is truly inappropriate for the office and/or violates office dress code (and I’m definitely willing to take your word for that), then she should be told that and she should correct it. But she should not be passive aggressively sabotaged and undermined by everyone in the office. Should a grown woman realize that you don’t walk around in low riders showing your thong in a law office? I think so, but I don’t think she should be dealt with in the way that you described.

    As for the part about women worrying about their husbands being tempted by her, well, that’s really an issue between those women and their husbands. That part might piss me off even more. I know this has strayed way off topic at this point, but I like to address this kind of thing when it comes up. If a woman is worried about her husband seeing down some woman’s ass crack or being tempted by her massive cleavage and drunken availability or whatever, that’s a problem between that woman and her husband and can’t exactly be blamed on the other woman. If she’s actively attempting to attract married men, I wouldn’t approve of that, but I’m not buying the “there are some temptations no one should be required to endure.” I suppose if your husband had an affair with this woman, you’d blame it all on her while understanding that he was just too tempted by her body and her outfits?

  116. Raging and Thomas,

    I knew someone was going to take my comments that way, but NO I would squarely blame my husband for the affair. However, after the chair incident he said if I were a woman no WAY would I let my husband go on a business trip or work late wtih her. It’s hard to explain, but between her dress and her provocative behavior toward anything male, it’s beyond the pale. Likewise, my husband would not be too keen on me going on a business trip with Russell Crow, who always took his shirt off, offered to rub my feet, and wanted to talk to me about my feelings when we were supposed to be working. You can live in this little fantasy world that you can either trust your spouse or not, but its not fair that in the course of their work, people have to be placed in highly sexually provocative situations. As part of a wide ranging program to keep our faith with each other, my husband and I stay out of repeditive, stupid situations where someone could make a dumb mistake (i.e. getting toasted every Friday at happy hour with that cute co-worker who has already had a crush on you). That’s the same program where we skip the Swedish nanny who likes to sunbathe topless and the 21 year old pool boy who always brings his massage oil with him to service your pool in case anyone needs a quick rubdown before he goes to model underwear. Of course, if we choose to play around with fire and test our virtue on our own time, that’s our business, but having to put up with that kind of thing in the office where you can’t get away is a form of harassment in itself. I don’t have to put up with men constantly asking me out at work, why should they have to put up with a bunch of lets go have a drink, if only my husband understood me, oops my boob just fell out of my top kind of crap.

    I agree with you both that these issues are not being addressed properly. The firm is generally very well run, but this is a blind spot mostly because of her relationship with the managing partner. They socialize a lot outside of work, go on a lot of business trips together, he is her direct boss. He is kind of the only one who can deal with this, and for obvious reasons, not that many people are thrilled about approaching him about it. The women feel we would just sound jealous about her looks and the men feel they would get the, well if you don’t want to look at her then don’t speech. And most clients are male; did you ever hear a man complain about being able to see down a DD’s shirt to her piecred belly button (and yes, you will know it is pierced if you work with her for more than a day or so). I wish I could post pictures. The Brittany Catholic school girl outfit complete with pony tails and black patent heels plus white knee socks. The leather fringe vest that has 3 ties in the front and she wears only a bra (very lacy) underneath; high heeled fringe boots to match. If it weren’t so appalling it would be a hilarious caricature. She single handedly ruined my life long, you are always free to ignore other people’s attire, it’s not an invitation to anything argument. Fortunately, I work in another office so I don’t have to put up with this all the time. Her nickname among the staff is, of course, Brittany.

  117. RE: Baggy jeans

    Umm… I don’t know if this has been brought up but the reason I was given (and I don’t mean the “official” reason, more like the “whispered” reason) for the no baggy pants, showing boxers thing was that it was “easy access”… same thing about the rule against “Public displays of affection” (which caused a student walk out btw).

  118. bmc90- Has anyone thought to sign this woman up for TLC’s “What Not To Wear”… that’d probably be a LOT more effective than the petty bs going on right now.

  119. BMC, I’m not questioning your characterization of the attire, or the motives. I’m saying that this woman is ultimately sabotaging herself, and it’s a shame to see a professional woman with some talent get smashed against the rocks that patriarchy sets up for women. There is no neutral between too sexy and too reserved for women; any behavior by any woman in any setting in patriarchy is subject to criticism. This woman has picked an approach that just adopts one extreme of patriarchal expectation. I think it’s not going to work out for her, and she’ll lose the opportunity to have a long, successful career in law. It’s not just her loss, but ours as a profession.

  120. On “The sexualization of Girls”: As far as the pedophile using HW as an EXCUSE for his behavior/desires/etc.. what was it Jesus said to that one guy who saw “sin” all around him? Wasn’t it something like… if it bothers, pluck out your eyes.. then you won’t have to see it anymore.

    In other words, the “sin” was in his own eyes. Is it possible that we are projecting, just as much as the pedophile is?

    I don’t know the answer to that, but it’s a psychological puzzle. All I really know is that… I don’t understand why you would make a bikini for a baby…. just seems odd… don’t we want to PROTECT little’s ones skin from UV rays, not expose MORE of it to them?

    I don’t know if I have a point on this… the truth is, I’m a little conflicted and confused on this issue. :p

  121. Bikinis for little girls are wrong? HUH?

    Did you know all girls go topless at the beach in Europe? This means 5 year olds and 8 year olds and 11 year olds. Kids up to three are usually plain naked.

    Complaining about what girls wear is stuffy and judemental and weird. Girls will be girls. Girls have always liked to dress up and dress like teenagers. Stop looking at girl children and teenagers as creatures that need to be ashamed of their bodies.

  122. Thomas, indeed what is so annoying about the situation is not that I am actually worried about my husband, it’s that she is the stereotype we have been fighting in the profession for many years. As far as signing her up for TLC, that’s just as petty as anything else. The solution is to have the managing partner sit down with her and discuss her attire and quality of her work. She is certainly mostly hurting herself, though I think she is also hurting the image of the firm and I’m ashamed to be practicing with her.

  123. Well, I guess I don’t think of it as petty cause she would get $5000.00 worth of new clothes… but that’s just as bad as not giving her, her faxes right?

    Yeah… I’m not really seeing it… cause to me the choice between, embarrasing private talk with boss (knowing everyone’s been acting like high school behind your back and will be all pompous and snotty if “the talk” gets you to change how you dress and stuff) or public embarrasment with $5000.00 of new clothes to cushion the blow… and a mini-vacation to boot… yeah… I’d rather not work in the hostile environment that would be created by “the talk” and I’d definately MUCH rather get $5000.00 worth of new clothes. But that’s just my POV.

    Besides, it was mostly snark anyways. I just happen to like the show.

  124. hmmm.. I just thought of another way to put it…

    Option “The talk” : Here’s your problem, fix it.
    Option “The Show”: Here’s your problem and here’s how we’re going to HELP YOU fix it.

    *plus they will throw away all her old clothes.

  125. I like it too, but what she wears is only a part of the problem anyway. The talk with her should be private and not discussed among others in the firm, but I’m not in a position to do it.

  126. Bikinis for little girls are wrong? HUH?

    Did you know all girls go topless at the beach in Europe? This means 5 year olds and 8 year olds and 11 year olds. Kids up to three are usually plain naked.

    Complaining about what girls wear is stuffy and judemental and weird. Girls will be girls. Girls have always liked to dress up and dress like teenagers. Stop looking at girl children and teenagers as creatures that need to be ashamed of their bodies.

    Not sure who you’re addressing here, Edith — did someone upthread say that bikinis for little girls are wrong? Because if so, I missed it.

    The point of the post isn’t to say that children should have to dress like modest little adults. It was pointing out that various industries (entertainment, etc) sexualize children for profit. I personally take no issue with little kids wearing skimpy clothing or bikinis or middriff tops or whatever they damn well please (I don’t take issue with adults doing the same thing). I do have a problem with magazine layouts and clothing ads that present underage girls as objectified sexbots. And I further have a problem with people who address the issue by complaining about “kids these days” and little girls who dress like “hookers” instead of looking at it in a greater social context.

    Hope that clarifies my position.

  127. Seriously, Edith! I remember being a little girl with my cousin in Romania — we were 10 at the time — and swimming around in our underwear. No-one thought this was weird in the least.

    If anyone uses livejournal and follows ‘ohnotheydidnt’… anyone remember the drama with the photos of Tara Reid OMG popping out of her bikini? She was holding Kate Hudson’s toddler son, who has long hair and was wearing pink trunks, so he looked like a girl. And several people actually felt offended by the fact that a child who they thought was a girl was not wearing a bathsuit top.

    WHAAAAAAT

  128. Edith:

    I didn’t say it was wrong, just odd. Bikini’s are typically shown on “developed” women and it seems odd (like dressing a toddler in a dominatrix outfit would seem odd). I don’t know why it strikes me that way but it does. As for little kids running around naked on beaches… ouch… their parents/guardians must spend a FORTUNE on sun screen!

    Course you’re talking to a woman who was miffed as a child when her father wouldn’t let her walk around without her shirt on but would let her brother go shirtless… A woman who routinly lets her daughter run around the house stark naked but makes her put on clothes when there’s company…

    Like I said, this issue confuses me and I find myself conflicted with both sides of the issue. It’s an “On the one hand… but on the other…” sort of thing for me right now.

  129. Re: Bikinis-

    Ah, sorry Edith, I see the comment now. I don’t know how I missed it. And I’m with you — I don’t see anything wrong with naked kids on the beach, or little girls in bikinis. In fact, I really resent the fact that I have to wear a bikini top on beaches in the U.S.

  130. Maybe I better clarify, in case you’re discussing my comment. I was coming from the perspective that bikini tops are silly items for girls; why not just have shorts like the boys? I mean, for women, tops make sense for support. What are they supporting in little girls? Nothing physical, just the idea that girls are supposed to be more “modest” than boys, ykwim?

  131. I take the xCLP swimming, and of course she just wears a swim nappy, like I wore trunks until I actually grew bra-stuffers. It seemed perfectly natural, until I saw all the other babies at the pool wearing swimsuits. I boggled.

  132. … she is the stereotype we have been fighting in the profession many years.

    And few people here have clued into the fact that it’s not here mere appearance that is raising the hackles of the women around her — it’s her behavior. It’s the calculated drive to get ahead using sex and NOT by doing what far smarter and harder-working women are doing, which is get ahead with the sweat of their goddamned brow. And in places like most law firms, do you think there’s room for more than one woman at or near the top? Guess again. She’ll be kept around as eye candy, and all it proves is that what you’re able to do as a woman means nothing compared to whether they think you’ll give them a blow job or not. This is fucking galling for women with self-respect and brains who refuse to lower themselves like that.

    And if you think that a woman like that wouldn’t sabotage other women around her, you’d best think again. Women like that — and I will stand behind this assertion until Doomsday — will cut any other woman who is perceived as “competition” off at the goddamned knees. If she gest no mentoring or help from any other woman in the firm, it’s because they know damned well that the second they start to stick out a bit too far, she will stick a knife in their backs. These women know that there is room for one Queen Bimbo at the top, and they will poison the watercooler in the women’s restroom in order to keep it that way.

    Again, it’s not her body, or physical qualities she can’t help. I know what I look like, and I’ve been negatively viewed because of it, but I know how I act, and I know that no woman who views me askance (or damned few) continue to do so once I open my mouth. And I am willing to help other women and mentor other women and speak out for them, and I wil be goddamned to the hottest circle of hell before I will wear a tight skirt to a board meeting to trade on my body. It’s her behavior they can’t stomach.

    And anyone who excuses the men who fuck around with her (because the poor little slobbering hormone-slaves can’t help it) and who then turns around and slams the other women in the office for rejecting a woman who has proven overwhelmingly that she cannot play as a team member should get the fuck out of the discussion because you are holding women to a higher standard than men. You’re giving men a pass to act like sniffing dogs and expecting women to bend over backwards when their careers are effectively being damaged by a woman who is openly willing to flush forty years of effort on behalf of other women in order to gain her own short-term advantage.
    She’s willing to flush what those women are trying to achieve and knows it — why do you expect that they will mentor her? How “mentoring” do you think she’d be toward ANY female newcomer to the firm who had a better body and was thinner than she is?

  133. BTW, I’m not talking about the fact that the men in charge aren’t mentoring her — if anything, all that proves is that they don’t take her seriously and can’t give a rat’s ass for her work anyhow — which we already knew, thanks so much. And which the women who work there don’t feel like seeing illustrated in glaring color in front of their eyeballs every fucking time they go into work, thanks SO much.

    It’s the fact that the women in the office are being blamed for not helping her out, for letting her swim. Fuck it, she’s the one who decided to cut herself off and go for male approval uber alles.

    Expecting WOMEN to mentor her is unreasonable since her entire behavior illustrates that she does not care for women’s help and will cut another woman loose like ballast the second it complicates her drive for male approval. It also indicates that she wouldn’t take such advice seriously anyhow, because it “only” came from a woman and not from a man.

  134. You know, Janis, I get awfully nervous about this sort of discourse and its perilous close-steering to the Sea of Woman-Blaming, but I know exactly who you’re talking about, and I daresay a lot of us have met her.
    She was, essentially, on the same research team I was. I was instrumental in getting her there; I’d met her young and shiny-new, helped her with applications, introduced her to people, helped show her the ropes. Lots of us did; she seemed like a nice girl with a bright future, and there’s always someone who wants to help out someone new. We were impressed with her perspicacity and drive and potential and talent. And then she stopped using that talent, and started using tight skirts and long leans over the table with the right people to get ahead, and suddenly started finding herself with advantages that the rest of the women around–refusing to lower ourselves to that kind of trading on our bodies for position-jockeying with male superiors–didn’t. I kept supporting her anyway, because I considered her a friend and a younger colleague to look after. I’d heard about bad behavior, but didn’t want to believe it–undermining of other women on the team, a sort of creepy competitive do-anything nastiness, and so on. And then I made the mistake of correcting an error of hers, once, in front of the professor we both worked under.
    That was when it got ugly. She undermined my professional relationship with our advisor; she told untruths about my not showing up for meetings; she took credit for other people’s work, including mine; she refused to engage with me in conversations about the work. The trading-on-sexiness stuff kept getting more and more blatant. Pretty soon she was flirting with important people to get interviews, and then leaning on them for connections, going as far as to buy specific outfits to appeal to some of the men who could get her information and connections she wanted. Long story short? She got a prestigious research opportunity overseas, left the man she’d been with for some years, hooked up with another well-placed person romantically, and moved on, through him, to a golden opportunity in yet another country. The rest of us from the team, still trying to trade on just our intellectual merits, are all struggling for jobs.

    I say this by way of sympathizing, but I also say this all with trepidation, because a lot of the criticism of that young woman from bitter colleagues ended up not being about her selling out her talents for easier methods of making connections. There was envy regarding her networking advantages; there was implication that she didn’t have the professional talents she did have in the first place; there was a lot of criticism of the amount of makeup she wore, rather than, say, her betrayal of colleagues who’d gone to bat for her or her questionable field research techniques; there was denigration of the attractiveness that got her the advantages she’d exploited. There were accusations that she’d taken it a step further and used her body more directly for professional advantage, something I’m fair sure never actually happened.
    And so on.

    There are always people who use advantages they shouldn’t, or take advantage of a system that screws the lot of us over. They make their bad choices under that same system we do, and I hate to say it, sometimes those choices are good choices for them. I’d give a lot for the position my old colleague now has. Would I give away that bit of my dignity she did, if I had the physical resources she does? I hope not, but I don’t know. She’ll get tenure before I do, probably, and set herself up a lot of security she’ll need when those looks have faded. It’s not fair, no, but it also comes from the vast insecurity that her abilities won’t be enough to get her by, and she needs to trade on her looks, too–and I wouldn’t want that eating me up from inside for the rest of my life.

    Her bad practices toward colleagues and research subjects, those I’ll criticize till the cows come home–they’re things I’d find equally and not-differently disgusting in a male colleague. Her choices to use other people’s objectification of her to network and get by? I just don’t know. It’s sad, very sad. I don’t think the women who engage in this behavior are the problem, either way; it’s the men and the patriarchal system who put them, and us, in a position where that matters.

  135. Little light, it’s okay to blame women. You were hesitant to blame her for trading on her looks, but you showed no hesitation whatsoever to blame the other women for running down her appearance. Woman Blaming isn’t the same as Asshole Blaming, unless those two sets intersect. Where they do, blame is entirely reasonable.

    Watching that happen when you are sitting there like a fool and a patsy and a stupid little idealistic idiot because you want to work hard is fucking galling, especially when you can’t force yourself to play that game. I can tell you right now that I could trade on my looks and probably blow that little cretin right out of the water. I refuse to do so, so yes. I’ll criticize her whoring heself out (and that is what it amounts to) from now until Doomsday. Because I CAN do that, and I know that even the perfectly unremarkable amount of self-respect that I have prevents me from doing so. I DO have the power to do that and I am incapable of it. Even hearing it suggested to me int he past made my fucking flesh crawl.

    It all means that, if you’re a woman, how good you are, how smart you are, how hard you work — means fucking NOTHING. Yeah, we tell ourselves it does so we can sleep nights. We tell ourselves it does so we can work with (and live with, and sleep with) the mouthbreathing male shits we’re surrounded by. It’s not true.

  136. Little light, I had not put my finger on it before, but I think most women and men in the firm are scared shitless of her percieving them as an enemy. Because all she has to do is take one of those long plane rides with the managing partner to trash any one of them, and they could lose their jobs or be forced out. And we know that’s exactly what she would do if she thought any one of us were undermining her in any way. So I can’t blame the staff too much for their white mutiny. The lawyers by and large steer clear. Especially me. I’m not in her league of hot, but I get a fair amount of attention if I want it and she clearly does not want compeditors.

  137. Also about blaming — I think that we’re perfectly happy to blame other women for all sorts of things, with one exception. Kissing male ass. Suddenly, we become feminist theorists way up in the perfect plane and step so far back from the situation that we get nosebleeds. Women blame other women for all sorts of things, including for the ways in which we react to female kiss-asses. We are completely comfortable with tearing apart other self-identified feminists who in any sane universe we would consider our allies. Women without and with kids tear into one another regularly.

    But when a woman quite literally whores herself out and undermines every other woman around her, cutting them loose like ballast at the slightest indication that it will advance her with the massa, we get cold feet with the blaming.

    I’ve dealt with too many women like that. I’ll blame the shit out of them for throwing their sisters to the lions. We’re all running from the snarling bear, but you don’t have to trip the person running next to you, and if you feel that you do — the bear should eat YOUR ass and take you out of the gene pool.

    It’s all well and good to specify that you dislike her viciousness and sabotage and not her patent-leather stiletto fuck-me boots and thong underwear, but was there EVER a woman who wears those in the office and in court who DIDN’T act like a sabotaging me-first queen bee? I’m not talking about attractive women, I’m not talking about women with a dress sense. I’m talking about patent-leather fuck-me stilettos and thong fucking underwear here. Women are right to suspect ANY other woman who wears that and openly whores herself out for male approval in the workplace — because 100% of the time, she’ll stick a knife in a sister’s back soon as look at her. She wants to prove that women can make it in a man’s world all right — HER. No other women. Just her.

  138. I guess, in short-answer terms, Janis and bmc90, what I’m saying is this: the women all three of of have dealt with have done wrong things, it seems,and I think all three of us have suffered from the sort of behavior we’re talking about. It cheapens our work and our diligence and commitment to being read on our competence instead of our cleavage.
    But I also think it is a wrong thing for women like us to cut at them on their looks or attire rather than their actions: that is to say, I am all for criticizing another woman for backstabbing, unprofessionalism, sabotage, and so on. I feel, though, that summing that up by getting on her choice of footwear is buying into the very paradigm she’s buying into: that her physical appearance and attire, rather than her moral or intellectual merits, are the things to evaluate when trying to measure her worth. That’s where I get cold feet. I want to be different from the same male bosses who’re giving her perks for wearing those shoes instead of submitting a good paper, say–how different is the flipside, marking her out and excoriating her for her thong underwear instead of her vicious behavior toward coworkers? Why take a detour into slut-shaming when we could have a much more substantive conversation about why that woman makes the choices she makes, why the environment we’re in is conducive to her benefitting from those sorts of decisions, and why the people in charge are allowing her to benefit from them instead of rewarding those who keep their heads down and work hard? Why not simply talk about her job performance or moral character?
    And, in the end, the other thing I’m trying to say is this: I can’t do much about that one individual woman who’s behaving badly without sinking to her level. I could, theoretically, move to, say, get her fired. There’ll always be others to replace her, though. These women don’t make these choices in a vacuum. They’re being pushed into the same bad situation you or I are, by a system neither they or we have control over. It’s fighting that system that will remove their ability to screw us over on those grounds.

  139. It’s fighting that system that will remove their ability to screw us over on those grounds.

    I’m not entirely convinced of that, though. Any person who will trip her comrades when running from a bear will trip them when running from a tiger. What it means is that, in ANY stressful situation where you’re surrounded on all sides by the enemy, this one woman’s instinct is to stab everyone around herin the back to get herown ass saved. She’ll trash her coworkers, or she’ll shove you off the fire escape while the building’s on fire. I know that women don’t make their choices in a vaccuum, but there are a LOT of possible choices to make, granted many of them suck. The patriarchy is most solidly to blame for THIS PARTICULAR instance of her shoving the women around her into the blender to keep her own ass out of it, but who is to blame when she shoves someone out of a lifeboat to stay alive? The patriarchy may be to blame for the circumstances that led to this one particular nasty choice she’s made, but what other situations in life will arise when she will either have to work together with the people around her — male AND female — or coldly sacrifice them all to save her own ass? Do you want a woman who displays those tendencies in one lose-lose situation to be in your bomb shelter?

  140. To put it another way — when this woman is trading on her appearance to suck up to powerful men in charge and throw the other women around her to the wolves in the process … on the abstract level, what makes her so different from Ann Coulter or Michelle Malkin (or whatever her name is)? I haven’t heard any shortage of blaming for sucking up to the patriarchy layered on those two, and deservedly so.

    How about Clarence Thomas, who benefited from affirmative action just until he climbed high enough to cut off the rest of the minorities trying to climb up behind him?

    I’ll blame THEM first and foremost. I’m not sure anymore whether we should blame abstract principles like “the patriarchy” or “racism” for such behavior. Like I said, there are some people who react to any stress or danger by banding together with those around them, and there are those who push the people around them out of the lifeboat. These people come in all types, and their cannibalistic tendencies surface in all situations.

  141. I think you may misunderstand me, Janis.

    I’m not saying these women are doing nothing wrong. I’m saying our criticism of them, such as it is, should focus more on their actions–like, say, harming other women in order to get ahead–rather than buying into the same idea system they do, and basing our criticism on their mode of dress.
    Similarly, I have a profound loathing for Ann Coulter, but her short skirts, or people’s obnoxious attempts to smear her by suggesting she’s transsexual, really have nothing to do with it. I don’t like her work; I don’t like her ideas. I don’t want to undermine my own criticism of her positions by basing it on her hemlines or the relative size of her hands when the important things to get at are her racism, misogyny, plagiarism, and fascism. I feel ill sharing heritage with Michelle Malkin, but I think we get a lot more mileage fighting her racism and xenophobia than making me-love-you-long-time jokes at her expense.

    I’m not saying we can’t criticize bad actions. I’m saying that how we go about it matters, and that, yes, it doesn’t hurt to remember that the people we’re up against are often in the same hole we’re in. Doesn’t mean we have to like them or not be careful of them. It just means we oughtn’t sink to their level.

  142. It seems that her hemlines are a calculated part of the whole picture though. These things are cold, rational choices made consciously by women who actually are attempting to employ a bald-faced stereotype. It’s not a matter of them “just” dressing that way because they think it’s fun, much as they may make that insincere justification for it.

    These are cold choices, on a far, far different plane than a woman who just thinks the lavendar and flowers on her summer shirt or dress are pretty and wishes she could wear it without it being a political statement.

    I will most definitely criticize her appearance if, in my judgment (and that of anyone with their eyes open) her appearance is a big part of the whole structure of her sellout personality.

    Again, this is not a matter of a woman who just likes pretty stuff or wants to wear her hair long. (Mine is within a few inches of being past my butt.) This is a woman who is wearing these things because she wants the men aroung her to think she is trading sex for money. If she is dressing to make men think she is a whore, calculatedly and on purpose, then she has no right to act offended when the other women around her also twig onto the fact and state it out loud. “Hey, you’re dressing to mane them all think you’ll give them blowjobs, aren’t you?” It’s like the elephant in the living room; she wants the men to think it, but she doesn’t want the women to realize it.

    For such women, their appearance is 110% a part of their whole strategy, and hence it is as much up for criticism and attack as any other part of them.

  143. I think we might be thinking of two different things when we are talking about criticizing appearance as well … I’m not talking about “her hair is ugly” or “those shoes are outdated” sorts of things. I’m talking about saying out loud, “She’s only dressing that way because she wants to make the VP think she’ll blow him behind the xerox machine.”

    I’m talking about criticizing the motivations behind her choices, but not nitpicking fashion. I’m not sure if we’re crossing wires on that or not …

    Although I’ll still maintain that any person who will react to the patriarchy by flushing her sisters down the toilet to save her own butt is someone who would react to a fire by shoving other people off the fire escape. The core problem is still within that person’s mind. In a completely egalitarian society, such a person is still going to tend to toss others overboard to save their own asses. Basically, in an egalitarian society, there will still be assholes from time to time. Plenty of the (male) brokers who worked for Enron sabotaged their (male) coworkers to pump up their own figures, and they didn’t have the excuse of oppression to explain it. I’m confident that, if we were to live in a totally equal society, that woman lawyer would probably still not be the sort of person you’d want in your workplace.

  144. In another vein, while racist jokes at Malkin’s expense are wrong no matter what, making the observation that she is coldly and cannily playing on her OWN race to make the whiteboys like her more for selling the rest of her kind out isn’t.

    And either way, Malkin herself has no business whatsoever complaining herself about racist jokes made at her expense if she is a racist herself, which she is.

  145. making the observation that she is coldly and cannily playing on her OWN race to make the whiteboys like her more for selling the rest of her kind out isn’t.

    Two points:
    1) I thought progressives were against racial pride, on the grounds that race doesn’t exist/is a social construct.

    2) Even then, she’s not playing on her own race. She’s of Filipina descent (IIRC), and the Japanese aren’t particularly liked there. It’s a bit more complicated than “well, she’s an Asian, so she’s a race traitor”.

  146. girls, I would wager, wear the clothes they do is, that’s what their friends are wearing, or not even their friends, but “everyone,” and peer pressure is as strong on this occasion as ever.

    And, of course we want to teach our children that giving in the peer pressure is the right thing to do.

    Thanks for helping to raise the next generation of anti-social misfits.

  147. What does the fact that she’s Filipina specifically as opposed to any other race have to do with it? She IS taking advantage of the fact that racist whiteboys like no one so much as a non-white, non-male turncoat. It’s like the antifeminist woman — they ADORE being able to point to her and say, “Well, SHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE doesn’t mind!!!!” when another woman calls them on their horseshit.

  148. That children ultimately value people as people happens when parents (or someone else) teach them such lessons, regardless of what they wear–I knew kids who grew up with hippie parents who let them run around naked, get mohawks, and wear whatever they wanted, from birth onward. Some of these kids grew up to be cool people who valued others’ autonomy. Some of them turned into selfish prigs incapable of exercising any self-control. Some hippie parents, however, sexually abused their kids–again, because of availability and prediliction, not because of materialism or clothing. Some of those kids were destroyed, and some were not. Some grew into intact respectful individuals anyway. Here we all are, having, ostensibly, a debate about whether the clothes marketed to kids turns them into hyper-sexual, materialist, conniving freaks, when clearly DisneyCorp has no such power.

    And where is a 10 year-old who looks 15 be hanging out exactly, that she would be hit on by a much older man?

  149. And where is a 10 year-old who looks 15 be hanging out exactly, that she would be hit on by a much older man?

    Speaking from experience here, at the beach, at an amusement park, and walking down the street. I would call it “sexually harassed” rather than “hit on,” though. I was a c-cup by the time I was 11, and it was made very clear to me that my adult body made me fair game.

    (Oddly enough, I get harassed a whole lot less as an adult than I did as a kid, even though my boobs are even bigger now and I wear tighter clothes than I did then. I am definitely much better looking now than I was when I was a very awkward 12-year-old, but men on the street mostly leave me alone. I think there was something about my obvious discomfort with my body and with male attention that made me an attractive target as a pre-teenager.)

  150. Most people tell me I still look like a teenager.. which is why I still get harassed like that. (and I got harassed plenty as an early bloomer as well… I wonder sometimes if poverty had something to do with it as well, but that is perhaps a seperate issue.)

  151. Yes, Tuomas. Turncoat. Do you not know what the word means?

    And are you here because someone on some pro-Malkin board told you, “Hey, they’re talking shite about her over there!” Or are you a regular contributor here? Or a regular troll? What’s your intended purpose in this conversation?

  152. Regular contributor, who often dissents with the POV presented here. No one told me to come here, and I’m politically independent.

    What’s your intended purpose in this conversation?

    To renounce the idea that all members of some race and gender must agree on all issues or else they are “turncoats” or “race traitors”. The idea is profoundly offensive, totalitarian, and, well, racist and sexist.

    I also wonder why “racist whiteboys” are supposed to love more than everyone else. Funny, I thought they would prefer other white men, being patriarchal white supremacists and all.

  153. The fact that she is Filipina has relevance because her controversial book “In Defense Of Internment” (I disagree with the conclusion there, btw.) isn’t about her defending internment of her own people, as many suspect, but if you know history of the Second World War, you know that Japan occupied Philippines.

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