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The Elephant in the Feminist Classroom

There are plenty of elephants in feminist classrooms, as we’re all aware. As a woman of color, there have been times when I was one of those elephants. White, middle-class feminism’s overlooking of race, class, queer identities, ability…this leads to a classroom full of elephants that many students and instructors are unable to see or unwilling to discuss.

These issues have slowly gained legitimacy within the white middle-class feminist classroom. In Intro to Feminism courses, there are discussions, speakers, and readings assigned about womanism, the queer movement, etc.—if the teacher is a half-decent one, anyway. They may be small discussions, they may only raise awareness without creating understanding, but the elephants are acknowledged.

There are still a few elephants left, however. The elephant I’m going to acknowledge today is religion (including spiritually and belief systems).

Religion is brought up in classrooms when anti-Semitism is discussed. Religion is brought up when female genital mutilation is introduced. Religion is revealed to be part of the dominant structure of Judeo-Christian patriarchy in the U.S. Religion is often talked about in classrooms as part of “the problem.”

How many times have we been in feminist classrooms and heard, “I think all religions are oppressive to women.” Or seen it on a feminist blog?

What does this statement do? It dismisses religion and feminists who have one. Feminist interpretations of all major world religions are increasing. Here’s a great website where you can find a bibliography for feminist theology and interpretations of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and then some. Why is it acceptable to dismiss the belief systems of these feminists?

Belief systems are how we frame our entire world, and the entire world adheres to some type of belief. Here you can see a really rough breakdown of the world’s main belief systems. Not a definitely authoritative source, but the most illustrative and incredibly thorough. That’s a lot of people, and half of these adherents are women.

The idea that “religion is oppressive” is deceptive, because “religion” as it is discussed is reduced to the rules & regulations of said religion. We’re not talking about a connection with God or the universe, here. We’re talking about eating fish on Friday or wearing a wig to cover your hair. Dismissing an entire faith (and/or all belief systems) dismisses those who believe in this faith. Not to mention those of us who believe the male-defined rules, interpretations, and applications are the problem, not the faith itself.

Religion is a belief system. An idea. And idea cannot actively oppress someone. A holy book cannot chase women around and tell them do this or that—the Bible doesn’t go around physically stopping homosexuality; the Torah doesn’t physically measure the length of an Orthodox Jewish woman’s skirt. The interpretation and application of ideas (by male scholars and male-centered religious schools of thought) is what gets us in trouble. Interpretations that keep men in power and deny women agency are the problem. You know what these interpretations are? Patriarchy. Not God or faith in God. Patriarchy poses as religion in interpretations that say that women shouldn’t use birth control or that marriage is only for one man and one woman.

But the rules get confused with God. And then God gets pegged as the bad entity, instead of patriarchy. And that leaves the religious/spiritual feminists in class and on the blogosphere staring at each other, wondering, “Ain’t I a feminist, too?”

The blanket idea that all religions are oppressive is also often an uninformed one. Can someone who has not studied all belief systems (not just The Big Three, but all belief systems, including atheism, animism, wicca, etc., as well as more well-known Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.) put forth this idea? Often, those doling out judgment on religion only focus on The Big Three (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam), ignoring other belief systems like Buddhism, agnosticism, or Rastafarianism. These are religions, too: people frame their viewpoints with these in mind.

And even within The Big Three, there are endless sects. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all have differing sects within them, and sects with sects. None of these religions can be described as monolithic. Sects within these religions can be incredibly strict and severe (like Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saint Christians, Salafi Muslims, and Haredi Jews), and they can be incredibly liberal, accepting female ministers, imams, and rabbis, and following interpretations that allow homosexuality, for example.

Can one fairly dismiss something without understanding it? Without reading a religion’s holy book, the scriptures, and laws, as well as understanding their historical interpretations and applications, without knowing the intricacies of sects within a religion and the differences between them, how can someone really know any belief system is oppressive and make a statement as such?

Reducing a belief system to its male/patriarchal interpretations and dismissing a religion because of a lack of knowledge is bad enough. But dismissing religion also dismisses the spirituality of an adherent. Their connection with the universe and/or their higher power. Take away a person’s religion may take away their source of comfort. It may take away their strategy for dealing with patriarchy and traumatic events. It’s taking away a support system; who has too much support in a world that often victimizes us because of our gender, skin color, or sexuality?

“You’re just brainwashed because you believe in God” sounds a lot like, “You’re just hysterical because you’re a woman” or “You’re just lazy because you’re Mexican” to me. Despite the fact that these are different types of discrimination, they all result in discrimination, barriers, and disunity. Yes, there are people who don’t question their belief system and may aptly be described as brainwashed. I don’t advocate this, but dismissing faith (and those of us with a faith) is exclusionary.

For many religious feminists, belief in a higher power and a religious lifestyle is a choice. But it’s also part of someone; it’s the way we look at things, the way we respond to situations, the way we deal with events and people in our lives. It’s part of our psychological make-up. Feminism, as I learned it, is about respect and dignity for all people. I think that should include feminists who have faith.


101 thoughts on The Elephant in the Feminist Classroom

  1. A feminist (or any other human) without religion is like a fish without a bicycle.

    Happy Fourth of July, Feministers.

  2. Although I agree with you, I think all “leftist” ideologies tend to dismiss religion as a whole. I don’t think this is okay but I see it a lot.

  3. Thank you for your post. As a Christian I get very annoyed when I read dismissive rants about Christianity on many feminist blogs. It is hard not to take it personally…

  4. As an agnostic bordering on atheist, I have always struggled internally with the idea of God.

    As a feminist, I’ve always thought it important include all women in the discussion of liberation, even (and especially) the ones I don’t understand. It’s hard to feel much respect for religion when one sees it not as a spiritual quest but as a bunch of people making up rules of conduct based on an invisible sky-being who demands it. It has seemed to me like something that shouldn’t be cultivated, but that’s the opinion of a person who wasn’t raised in it, who wasn’t steeped in it, who never went to it seeking community or strength.

    In the grand scheme of feminist dialog, it shouldn’t matter what I as an individual, consider to be ‘important’ or ‘real’. There are enough women in the world for which religion is very important and very real that it would be grossly negligent to keep it out of the dialogue.

    There are women wearing hijab who are dedicated feminist with credentials deeper and more knowledgeable than mine. There are Catholic nuns who still fight for a woman’s right to choose and find no contradiction in their work. This is what I try to remind myself when I find myself feeling dismissive about religion and skeptical about its healthiness for women in general.

    In other words, I’m still learning and growing. Thank you for writing this, Fatemeh. You’ve given me more to consider.

  5. But the rules get confused with God. And then God gets pegged as the bad entity, instead of patriarchy.

    I agree with you that it is patriarchy, rather than religion, that is the oppressive force. However, when we’re talking about religion, I think we need to differentiate between religion as spirituality and a belief in a higher power, and organised religion following rules from a book. Because when a large part of religion is following rules from a book, and that book was written by men in a patriarchal world (which they all were), then that book, those rules and (therefore) that religion are is an oppressive force.

    I was very religious until my mid-teens and studied the bible in great depth, and I have no doubt that the Christian bible considers women to be second class citizens. I know that there are a lot of churches and individual Christians that don’t follow these rules, but that just kind of makes me even stronger in my belief – if the rules of Christianity are so awful that swathes of Christians feel the need to ignore them, what is the point in Christianity?

    I totally support people in having religious ideas and being spiritual – but I feel that organised religions in a patriarchal society are always going have oppression of women as a core element. They were created in a patriarchy, and they have patriarchy woven throughout.

    “You’re just brainwashed because you believe in God” sounds a lot like, “You’re just hysterical because you’re a woman” or “You’re just lazy because you’re Mexican” to me. Despite the fact that these are different types of discrimination, they all result in discrimination, barriers, and disunity. Yes, there are people who don’t question their belief system and may aptly be described as brainwashed.

    Unfortunately, in my case, I was brainwashed into joining a slightly cultish religious group!

    Also, on God: believing in a higher power is fair enough, but I do believe that the fixation on a male God as creator stems from a desire to take the power of life and creation away from women. In Christianity, Adam births Eve, and Jesus is born of Mary who had no part in his creation but was merely a vessel. The Greek Gods were birthed by their father, too.

    Mighty suspicious that all religions deem the creator as male, when we all know that life comes from women’s bodies…

  6. That said, it is our responsibility as feminists to ensure that we listen to and respect all women’s voices. Some of us may disagree with religion, but we must never dismiss the experiences, ideas and opinions of religious women. Just as we may disagree with wearing push up bras, but we’ve no right to dismiss the women who wear them – instead, we have the responsibility to understand the reasons behind her choices and to keep on fighting for a better world for all of us, where our choices are freer and so are we!

  7. Fatemeh – thank you, thank you, thank you.

    A related issue that I struggle with is the tension between defending my beliefs (I’m a Christian, of the feminist, liberal, not terribly legalistic variety) and hiding from my privilege.

    That is, when people rant about the things that (for instance) fundamentalist Christianity – and by extension in that argument, “Religion” – does, I want to protest that there are many other interpretations than the one that shouts the loudest in American politics – to condemn the institutions rather than the belief in a higher power.

    But it can be hard to know how and when to do this without diminishing the enormous pain that Christian and other religious institutions have caused, and the benefits I get simply from being lumped in with those groups. Within feminism and most left-leaning groups, it’s true that my religion often makes me a target, easy to dismiss. But I can’t ignore the fact that in society at large the reverse is often true.

    This is something I struggle with (and pray about) a lot.

  8. Great piece!

    I was raised secular, but I like to look at different religions and see what they are about. While I currently do not follow a religion, I do my own self study of the belief systems that appeal to me most.

    Just from personal experience, I can see how religion cuts two ways. The part of me that stays away from organized religion sees how can be used and applied for terrible things. Some churches I have been to preach things that are against my belief system and some people wrap themselves in the cloak of religion so that they can start passing judgment on people.

    But, on the other hand, I suppose I am still seeking. And I have met many people in my life who are wonderful, upstanding people – and highly religious to boot. Their religion is their rock, and it shows. And they generally credit their religion with helping them to overcome hardships and gain greater empathy for others.

    Specifically in reference to your piece, F, I know exactly what you’re talking about. Religious women are women as well, probably fighting against patriarchal edicts from all kinds of places – and yet when they come to feminism, the place that is best to share ideas and strategies, they find their beliefs mocked and their experiences belittled. Personally, I am glad there are religious feminists. After all, who better to affect change in that part of life? In the future, I hope we can build a feminism that meets women where they are.

  9. I have huge, huge, huge problems with organized religion which I think is detrimental to everyone, but especially so for women because most of this organization models itself around (surprise, surprise) other patriarchal organizational models in the culture.

    The tendency of organized religion to be forced or pushed on others also gives me huge problems. So yeah, I tend to be very dismissive of religion in general. When it becomes generally a private thing, that no one would *dream* of imposing on anyone else without their prior expressed interest, when proseletyzing is considered to be an unacceptable activity altogether, then we can start talking more reasonably about religion in general.

    Because oddly enough, I find spiritual experiences and thought to be quite interesting. It’s just hard to find amid all the muddying done by all the organized religion crap, though. And that’s no one’s fault but the fucking organized religions themselves. Who continue to blithely fuck things up to this very day. And I make no distinction among any of them.

  10. I really appreciate this post because I do consider myself a Christian and also a feminist. I completely agree with you that it’s the patriarchy embedded in the religion that is the problem, not the religion itself. But for me, it is oftentimes very difficult to belong to a church and a religion that discriminates against women, any type of sexuality that is not straight, and non-Christians. My church is a lot more liberal than most, but I still deal with it constantly and it’s always a struggle to remind myself that my religious beliefs are based on God, not on the people and ideas that make up the rules.
    Anyway, thanks for this post.

  11. Regarding race and religion both being elephants in the room, it must be acknowledged that the minority elephant is part of the oppressed class as far as race whereas the religious elephant is part of the privileged class as far as religion and lack thereof.

  12. Lovely post. Thanks.

    “Organized” religion is usually a substitute word for patriarchal religion, I think, especially within feminist critiques. But there is indeed a difference between having a spiritual belief that follows in accordance with a major religious tradition and being some sort of automaton that mindlessly follows any directive that comes from an authority in that religion.

    I would agree that it’s not just feminism, it’s left-liberal traditions in general that can often be intolerant of spirituality. I wrote a post over at this lefty political blog after one of my co-bloggers expressed distaste for Barack Obama’s religious choices.

    There are indeed progressive, feminist traditions within all of the major religions. You just ain’t gonna hear about ’em on the mainstream media.

  13. Great post. Though, I don’t understand why “Judaism, Christianity, and Islam” are the big three. Hinduism is the third largest religion in the world, with 900 million followers, while Judiasm only has 12 millions followers (the graph you provided said that comprised of 0.22% of the following in the world, while Hinduism comprised of 14%). While Judiasm plays a major part here in the United States, and a couple other places in the world (portions of Europe, the Middle East), it’s really not that influential in other parts of the world – where Hinduism is. I just think that, as often is, putting it in the “Big Three” is kind of United States/Western-centric. Although, this post may have been focusing primarily on feminism in the United States, so that might have been the point. Again, anyway, very good post. I’m personally an atheist/agnostic/(or what I like to call a I-don’t-give-a-shit-iterian), but I really get annoyed at how religious faith (note: not organized religious power structures, but someone’s faith in something) is attacked unconditionally and viewed as bigoted.

  14. But the rules get confused with God. And then God gets pegged as the bad entity, instead of patriarchy.

    Granted, it depends on the faith, adherent, and sect, but it is difficult to separate the rules and the patriarchy from the big three. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all faiths that were born in patriarchy, outlined by patriarchy, raised by patriarchy, based in patriarchy, and (to differing degrees) worship patriarchy. You simply cannot separate the god of the Torah from the ten commandments. Most religion carries with it a basic level of oppression, some basic strictures which must be obeyed in order to prevent spiritual punishment or destruction. That is simply the nature of these faiths. Yes, individual adherents can work hard to bring themselves and their churches to a different place, but that is not the norm. When people attack religion on feminist grounds (or more liberal grounds in general) they’re speaking to the 90% of believers who are actively invested in continued patriarchy, the believers who hold the vast majority of power, the believers who are the public face of the faith because of their volume.

    Especially with the western monotheistic faiths, god doesn’t get confused with the patriarchy, god is the patriarchy. You’re talking about religions which worship an all powerful, all knowing, often vengeful, highly moralistic, purely dualistic, father God. This God has layed down his orders and demands to which a believer must adhere if they wish to avoid punishment, maintain love, or be considered an equal member of society. In the books which lie out this faith the messengers are always male, the villains often female. The dirty sin which all of humanity carries with it is the result of a woman’s seduction, salvation the result of a favored son or blessed man. Time and again those who disobey are murdered, tortured, or simply exterminated by either God or his chosen. In the very texts kneeling submission is rewarded, demanded, expected, and in some cases used as a prerequisite for being allowed to live. These are not misinterpretations, these are the fundamental roots of the faith. If one is to believe in this god one must accept that these are his words, his rules, his demands, his expectations.

  15. Though I never took a Gender Studies course as an undergrad, I did witness and experienced some of this intolerance for religious belief on my undergrad campus both in and out of class.

    I have witnessed several religious college classmates who were openly taunted in class for their religious beliefs. Whether they were Orthodox Jews discussing how their grandparents used their faith as a means to survive virulent European antisemitism and the Nazi driven holocaust in a German history course or Buddhists/Taoists explaining how their faiths impacted Chinese and Japanese society and culture in Chinese/Japanese history and politics courses, there was a common tendency among the majority of the mostly White upper/upper-middle class suburban raised student body to openly ridicule and consider them “less intelligent” and “stupid” for their faith.

    This was one reason why only the most thick-skinned religious classmates were willing to even openly own up to their religious faith. Most religious classmates have mentioned that they felt the need to keep their faith on the down-low to avoid attracting ridicule and unwarranted assumptions about their supposedly “inferior intellect”.

    When I questioned and pointed out how the intolerance for classmates expressing their religious faith where it was germane to the class discussions was total BS and made them out to be hypocrites considering they also preached tolerance for different ideas, I ended up getting a lot of flack for that. After a while, I found most college classmates subscribed to the Marxist-Leninist idea that religion/belief in a higher-being/spirituality are the opium of the people and thus, anyone who subscribes to such beliefs must be of low intelligence and to be treated with utter contempt.

    Moreover, they often believe they are the epitome of intellectualism and scholarship merely for being militantly atheistic when such lofty thoughts were actually nothing more than overindulgent egotistical rubbish. This is especially in light of their severe intolerance for different/dissenting ideas, the fact those religious classmates I previously mentioned excelled academically, and the fact some of those “epitomes of intellectualism” were suspended/expelled for academic deficiencies during my time there. 🙄

    To be fair, this phenomenon occurred on my campus because its student body are on average politically oriented to the progressive radical-left. We’re talking students who are proud to associate and subscribe to Marxist/Leninist/Maoist beliefs while being dismissive of anyone to the right of that….including Social Democrats.

  16. Thank you for this post.

    It’s not just the classroom either, the same thing happens on feminist blogs. Just recently on Feministe there was a post about the involvement of women in Judaism and there were responses to the effect of: “Why are we even talking about this, feminists shouldn’t be religious/care about religion anyway.” It’s frustrating for those of us who (like you said) consider religion to be a part of ourselves.

  17. Religious organizations always have to toe the line and cooperate in the patriarchy. After all, the communal property and the community itself is a hostage to any passing by band of young male thugs, who are often directed some balding guy with a beard…

    Theocratic societies that are non-patriarchal tends to get killed off pretty damn quick, like Cathars.

  18. Of course, the big difference between “race, class, queer identities, ability” and religion is that the latter is chosen. Religion is about ideas, not inate characteristics. That, to my mind, puts it in quite a different class.

  19. Thanks for all your comments, everybody.

    There are big differences between innate characteristics like ability, skin color, sexuality, etc., and religion, I agree. But I’m speaking to the experiences of religious feminists in the class and the blogosphere; there are often times when we’re excluded based on our beliefs. I’m concentrating on the exclusion aspect here.

  20. It seems one could formulate an argument like, if you reject beliefs that are not supported by anything but tradition, you must reject all religions. If you accept tradition as valid for determining truth, you must reject feminism, since patriarchy is traditional.

    The only course is to argue that some religions are supported by something other than a tradition, but I don’t foresee many atheists being convinced. Hence, it is reasonable for an atheist to see feminism and religion is logically incompatible (albeit not practically incompatible).

  21. But entering into, say, a heterosexual marriage (opening a whole new can of worms?) is also a choice, and heterosexual marriage can be a repressive social situation for women (even feminists).

    And at the same time, women are significantly more religious than men in the United States, and a lot of that is explained by the positions of influence and social importance they can achieve in their places of worship.

    As I think we’re all well-aware, it’s pretty hard to wholesale avoid the patriarchy, and I don’t think you lose feminist cred by some potentially oppressive situation being important to you. Isn’t the cornerstone of feminism the idea that women’s experiences, in their broad and fascinating diversity, are valuable?

  22. Although I agree with your point about dismissive attitudes towards religion I have a problem with atheism and agnosticism being termed as “belief systems”. There is no “system” to be had. One Christian to another will have certain set of beliefs, ditto for one Hindu to another etc. There are no sets, however, of common beliefs in atheism or agnosticism, they all come to their own conclusions and choose to believe different things. This also makes it ludicrous to try to “study” it, they are nothing beyond their definitions.

  23. As a woman of color, there have been times when I was one of those elephants.

    lol. I love this line. I, too, have grown into a big, fat elephant (one that stamps and grunts) one too many times:)

    What a great topic.

  24. Do you really think ideas cannot oppress anyone? I think ideas can cause people to oppress themselves, as well as to oppress others.

    it’s a bit precious to say “the bible doesn’t chase people around and tell them” to do something. Or distinguish between “actively oppressing” and, I guess the opposite would be, passively oppressing. Some parts of some religions tell people that their very soul depends on not doing certain things, or on stopping other people from doing them. Or the religion simply has a worldview in which women are in a particular place. If those views are effective, i.e. believed, then isn’t it oppressive?

    When we criticize media representations, isn’t it because of the ideas they generate and perpetuate? If I hate the fact that the media in the US presents women as sexual objects for consumption and encourages women to see themselves that way and base their self-esteem on their success in that department, why can’t I hate the fact that some major tenets of several religions are that women are subservient to male control and that women should accept that and base their self-worth on it? just like it doesn’t mean I think everyone who buys Vogue is evil, it doesn’t mean I think everyone who is devout is evil.

  25. I think that this issue is interesting, and I always try to be respectful toward those that do believe in a religion/spirituality. My opposition to religion (particularly the organized kind) is that virtually all of them are premised on the idea that womyn are fundamentally inferior. For example, the most dangerous historical basis for sexism that I can think of is the Biblical story of the Fall of Man that is accepted by all Abrahamic Religions. I fundamentally can never believe in a religion that says that I come from man, that my physiology (pangs of childbirth, etc) is a result of the weakness of my sex, or that I am responsible for sin in the world.

    I think that religion has liberating potential. The end message of the Abrahamic religions are almost always in favor of the oppressed, being anti-poverty, anti-violence, anti-hate. I try, and I know I need to try more, to understand how religion is an integral part of life for many womyn/men. But, I still think that religion is a very dangerous tool; it can be used for good, but most of the time it is used for evil.

  26. Thank you for writing this, it’s important to hear and reiterate. My spirituality, my Judaism, my radical politics, and my feminism are all linked and connected, they can’t be teased apart, and to suggest that religion and feminism are always at odds doesn’t resonate with me, and I know I’m not the only one.

    Being critical of and reflecting upon our religious traditions is important, just as it is important to be critical of our feminism.

  27. Hypatia, I view atheism and agnosticism as belief systems because, even though they aren’t necessarily uniform, they inform their adherents’ views of the world through things like science, for example. So, while it’s a scientific fact that our bodies decompose after death, many atheists BELIEVE that that’s it, there’s nothing else, while someone from an Abrahamic religion will most likely believe in an afterlife or heaven. That’s a belief.
    There are also international atheist societies and conferences; atheism may well be on the way to making itself an organized system.
    Also, I forgot to respond to this earlier. Brian, I termed Judaism, Christianity, and Islam as “The Big Three” because they’re all from the Abrahamic tradition, and together, they cover a whole lotta geography and demography.

  28. (I just tried submitting a post and I don’t think it came through, so I’ll try again – apologies if we end up here with two copies of a similar thing.)

    William: I agree with you that the fact that the religions you talk about all arose in very patriarchal societies can often make it hard to separate the religion from its cultural influences. However, I don’t think that means that they are inherently inseparable; as Fatemeh said, “the male-defined rules, interpretations, and applications are the problem, not the faith itself.”

    I can’t really speak to how these ideas are understood in Jewish or Christian contexts, though I know that all of these religions have some really interesting scholarship happening in terms of re-reading interpretations that may come across as sexist. From an Islamic point of view, we are told over and over that God is beyond gender and unlike any thing or person, and the idea of God as a father is explicitly refuted multiple times in the Qur’an (this is mainstream stuff, not even feminist interpretations.) Even the use of the masculine pronoun to describe God is seen as a grammatical thing (all nouns have gender in Arabic), and very clearly unrelated to the idea of God having any inherent gender. So while Islam focuses on submission to God, this God is never a male or masculine figure. If you still find the idea of God oppressive, then so be it, and we can disagree there… but I don’t think it’s fair to conflate God and patriarchy as is happening here.

    (Also, fyi, the concept of original sin doesn’t exist in Islam the way it does in the other Abrahamic faiths. Adam and Eve both ate the apple and share responsibility for it, and both were forgiven, so that all humans from then on are individually responsible for our own actions.)

  29. the Biblical story of the Fall of Man that is accepted by all Abrahamic Religions.

    Actually, it’s not. All Abrahamic religions have the story of Adam, Eve, and the serpent, but the only one that interprets that story to mean that sin and death entered the world through Eve is Christianity. Which isn’t to say that there isn’t sexism in Judaism or Islam, but it doesn’t come from that story the way it does with Christianity.

  30. I also think that some of the points made about religion being a source of comfort, strength, and resistance are really important here. Fatemeh talked in her article about religion as a support system for many people experiencing oppression, and as a few people have said here, religious beliefs can become a motivation for activism, for resisting and challenging oppression where it arises. Not to say that religion hasn’t also been manipulated in terrible ways, but we’re missing an important part of the picture if we just dismiss it outright.

  31. To the original poster: But you miss the point that ALL religions were founded by men. At least the most prominent five at this time were. Religion in itself is a tool of patriarchy and always will be unless some feminist woman can make up an entire religion that is completely fitting with everyone on the entire planet, without favoring any one opinion. It isn’t possible. Religion (an idea, you called it) can oppress someone because it IS brainwashing. From birth you are taught that these are things that ‘god wants you to do’ and that if you don’t do those things you’re going to hell/not a good person/whatever. It really bothers me when people say they’ll just ‘reform their religion’. It proves that religion is just manmade and that humans (the people who formed it in their heads in the first place) will just periodically change it to suit their present views, using the IDEA as a TOOL for oppression for various groups of people. Whether or not this group of people is black and enslaved, women and enslaved, homosexual, whatever. It will always be used as a tool for oppression. Ideas always have the potential to do this, religious or not, so it is ridiculous to say that, just because you get defensive about the fairy tale you believe in, religion is exempt from having oppressive influence over people. Religion= patriarchy because patriarchy created and nurtures religion, and everyone else who doesn’t quite agree with patriarchal views in religion just morph it into whatever way they want it to so they feel they’re still ‘correct’ in their views. It is so egotistical. And you can argue that I, a humanist, am being egotistical in this comment all you want, but humanists/atheists haven’t tried to enslave people of color, women, or strip gays of their rights on a broad scale, and then say that ‘everyone’s going to burn for eternity who doesn’t follow along!). And if religious people can be the “bad” people and religious people can be “good” people then all that shows is that religion is whatever doctrine people want to use as a tool to prove their right and you’re wrong. I really wish more people would get over their fear of death and just realize how ridiculously hypocritical being religious is. If you believe in the judeo-christian god then you HAVE to by your religion believe in everything the bible says. Because that’s god’s word. So if you don’t, then you don’t believe in the judeo-christian god because you don’t believe in his word and what he tells you to do. So instead of admitting that, “you’ll say, oh that’s just patriarchy talking, not god. God believes what I do and will send me to heaven anyway”. It’s a huge circle of ridiculousness that is perpetuated nonstop.

  32. Also, fyi, the concept of original sin doesn’t exist in Islam the way it does in the other Abrahamic faiths.

    Judaism either. It’s just in Christianity, and not even all branches of Christianity – Eastern Orthodoxy doesn’t believe in Original sin and I believe some fundamentalist Christian groups reject it as well.

  33. I love this post – dead on.

    Okay, I have to ask how people can claim that there is a real, true way religions or societies can be (usually this means patriarchal – “Yeah, but UNDERNEATH all that complicated stuff, isn’t it basically men talking about men/’born in patriarchy’/etc?”). Would people talk about their own society that way, or is North America different? How could anybody assume that the Western concept of patriarchy maps onto Judaism, Islam, etc, at all, let alone perfectly?

    Patriarchy looks different in every culture/religion, and so must a feminist counternarrative. Of course there is sexism, but there is also so much more – just like in white American society, there is a plurality of discourse on gender in every religion. It would be helpful to learn about religions from internal sources, and keeping at it for at least a few years before making judgments – there are bottomless texts and history to work through. I would hope no one would consider themselves experts on, say, Black history by reading only White authors.

    Meanwhile, it’s very problematic to erase women’s contributions to their own religions, even if it’s allegedly for their own liberated good (by a Western liberal standard, of course).

    Also, I totally agree with Brian… I really wish Hinduism was one of these big three, or possibly Buddhism. It would make it a lot more difficult to make generalisations about religion, for one thing.

  34. Love this post to bits. I’m am an agnostic who often finds myself defending people of faith — including here. But Fatemeh, if you mean “the Abrahamic religions,” you should say “the Abrahamic religions.” There’s already to much monotheism-centrism in the English-speaking world.

  35. “(Also, fyi, the concept of original sin doesn’t exist in Islam the way it does in the other Abrahamic faiths. Adam and Eve both ate the apple and share responsibility for it, and both were forgiven, so that all humans from then on are individually responsible for our own actions.)”

    By “the other Abrahamic faiths” you surely mean Christianity, yes? “Original sin” does not exist as a religious concept in Judaism. Matter of fact, I’ve heard of a Hasidic tradition that holds Eve up as a hero for eating the apple because, hey, she took a great risk for knowledge and should we not all do the same?

  36. Sure, a book can’t enforce a rule, but it can state a rule, certainly, and it can state one that blatantly subjugates one type of person with respect to another.

    I think any religion comes down to what the people who are part of that religion believe, rather than what’s written in a book. That being said, people can still choose to think one “abnormal” group is inferior to another, because of what their religion tells them. There are many sects, and sects of sects, that hold some version of that belief to be true. And that still seems messed up to me.

  37. Roses and Brown Shoes: Yes, I’m sorry. I was responding to someone’s comment about the concept within those 3 religions, and clearly didn’t know enough about what I was talking about. Thanks for the corrections, and I apologise for getting that wrong.

  38. exholt– Ahh, dogmatic atheists! One of my favorite ironies.

    I believe in Carl Sagan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pfwY2TNehw
    Watch! It’s related to this thread, and a lovely reading.

    Like Sagan, I think personally I find a belief in God, or whatever, usually connected to the idea that human beings are special and central and so on (as opposed to lovely accidents of nature), which to me seems to be related to the idea that we need to push each other around and create pecking orders (as opposed to taking care of each other because there is no babysitter in the sky, we are all we have). God, to me, is the idea that there is order to the universe. If there’s order, then… well it’s not too far of a jump to “everyone gets what they deserve”. Hence maybe why conservative social beliefs and strict religious adherence go together so well. And that thinking I find problematic to human progress.

    So while I am open to the spiritual ideas of all monotheistic friends… And I would never ever discount their ideas or think them stupid for believing what they do, I will admit to being biased towards thinking that all this God talk just gets in the way.

    Please not I am not defending my own thinking as right or fair. I am thinking through my biases. My friend Ron, who is black, and his friend Larry, a white Jew, put on a great play called The Black Jew Dialogues (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT9tBOpBhoM). At the end, they ask the audience to talk about their experiences being discriminated against AND discriminating. A devout Christian said “I get made fun for my beliefs in this very secular city.” A Wiccan said “Well I feel discriminated against by Christians!” and I said “You know, I don’t experience much discrimination here [Massachusetts] for being an atheist, but I’m going to admit something instead. Christianity, in my experience [raised Catholic] makes me feel excluded as a woman, and I think Wicca is a bunch of tree worshipping la la.”

    And hey, we actually made progress by opening up that can of worms. (Please don’t yell at me or shame me for having felt these things, I am working on it!)

    But maybe that– the God –> order –> control thing is also what a lot of the hostility towards religious discussion in feminism is about?

  39. I attend a spiritual center that is based on the Quantum Physics understanding of matter.
    It is a 10,000 strong congregation of people who are as diverse as it gets, in L.A. The belief is that we are all ONE and that god is non dual, (not male/ female, black /white, not binary) God is omnipresence and compassion.

    Our Reverends are male and female. Our gospel song lyrics are universal and contain NO sexist, ableist, homophobic, racist lyrics.

    Most of the congregation is made up of artists, whether we are also bankers, car dealers, politicians, producers, or not, we are mostly artists.

    Many people at our spiritual center are still connected to the traditions of the faiths they were raised in. We have a lot of people who are “reformed” _______(fill in the blank with any of the major and minor world religions).

    As a feminist who left my families church at age 12 due to my feminist understanding- I am quite thrilled with this congregation and it’s goals.
    more info:
    agapelive.com

  40. Chel:
    ALL religions were not founded by men.
    Case in point Dianic Wiccan’s

    Gross generalizations about religious people and beliefs are as offensive as gross generalizations about anyone else.

    BTW
    Fatemeh
    thank you for the post.

  41. Regarding race and religion both being elephants in the room, it must be acknowledged that the minority elephant is part of the oppressed class as far as race whereas the religious elephant is part of the privileged class as far as religion and lack thereof.

    Thanks Bill for that. So true.

  42. I am an atheist. I have a times grappled with faith and a desire to believe in God, and ultimately what has turned me away from embracing religion has been the patriarchal nature of almost all of the religious institutions with which I’ve come into contact.

    Do I think you can be feminist and religious? Sure. Yes, of course you can. It would be silly, absurd, to say that you couldn’t. I wouldn’t make such an argument, and neither would I argue that religious women “deserve what they get” if the religious organizations to which they belong promote misogyny. I don’t think it’s absurd to be Christian and gay, to be Catholic and pro-choice. People make all kinds of compromises in their lives – I make all sorts of compromises with patriarchy in my own – and I don’t want to pass judgment on the quality of someone’s feminism because they believe in a higher being and I don’t.

    That said, I do think criticism of the various holy books as misogynistic or patriarchal is completely legitimate, and I think it’s perfectly legitimate to argue that Christianity is a patriarchal religion and that non-oppressive sects are the exception to the rule, rather than the rule itself. That’s not to say I think these arguments are necessarily true – just that you’re not a bigot if you make those arguments.

  43. …atheists haven’t tried to enslave people of color, women, or strip gays of their rights on a broad scale, and then say that ‘everyone’s going to burn for eternity who doesn’t follow along!).

    I’m not very sure about that…..

    They may not have said everyone will burn in eternity and atheism may not have been the main motive, but history has shown through examples of avowed atheistic movements such as the Soviet and Eastern Bloc Stalinists, Chinese Maoists*, or similar Communist single-party totalitarian dictatorships that atheists are not immune to doing all the negative things that dominationist religious movements have not done in the past. Ironically, the avowedly atheistic Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist-Maoist ideologies were at least as ruthless and oppressive in their rule and methods as any of the dominationist religious movements.

    * A branch of my family had the dubious “honor” of experiencing Maoist excesses firsthand during the Hundred Flowers Campaign, Great Leap Forward, and the Cultural Revolution.

  44. Like Sagan, I think personally I find a belief in God, or whatever, usually connected to the idea that human beings are special and central and so on (as opposed to lovely accidents of nature), which to me seems to be related to the idea that we need to push each other around and create pecking orders (as opposed to taking care of each other because there is no babysitter in the sky, we are all we have). God, to me, is the idea that there is order to the universe. If there’s order, then… well it’s not too far of a jump to “everyone gets what they deserve”. Hence maybe why conservative social beliefs and strict religious adherence go together so well. And that thinking I find problematic to human progress.

    What constitutes human progress? What makes you any better at determining that than anyone else?

    Though I know you did not intend this in the very last sentence, that sentence is reminiscent of how those militant atheists at my undergrad thought themselves the epitome of intellectualism solely for being atheistic which was undermined by their virulent intolerance, rude behavior, and in too many cases academic deficiencies. This thinking is similar to the absolutist “have all the answers” mentality of random religious fundamentalists I’ve had the dubious pleasure to encounter while living in the Greater Boston area or the arrogant overbearing Christian missionaries who facilitated colonialism in non-Western civilizations like China and acted in a high-handed manner against the Chinese locals…..and then wonder why the Boxer Rebellion occurred. 🙄

  45. I usually lurk, and I don’t believe I’ve ever commented here before, but I just wanted to say thank you Fatemeh for this post. The flat-out animosity that comes from most feminist and lefty blogs when religion gets brought up usually has me hitting the back button as soon as I see the topic being broached, but I’m glad I stopped and read this one.

    (The comments, less so. I continue to be daily astounded at people who cannot talk about “religion” without talking exclusively about Christianity, never mind nontraditional or non-monotheistic faiths. Please remember, those of us in minority religions don’t tend to qualify as “privileged” in this debate.)

  46. I was schooled in a privete uniting church school, we had assemblies with prayer, Religious Education classes and Chapel every second week.
    I believed when I was young, before I became old enough to question bible stories. I found the bible contained a lot of things I didn’t agree with, I began to doubt that not believing would send me to hell, and if it did, well why should I worship a god like that?
    I eventualy came to the point where, instead of saying that ‘oh you just ignore -those- parts’ I just threw out the bible altogether, and with it Christianity.
    The problem isn’t Patriachal interpritations, it’s that the writing itself is from a heavily patriarchal time, writen and edited buy patriarchal leaders.
    I don’t see the point in bending over backwards to interprete the ancient books of those thre major religions in a positive way. They either need to be heavily edited or thrown out to start a new, and you can imagine how popular that would be.
    I understand that it brings a sense of ‘community’ and ‘security’ to be part of a large religion but that doesn’t mean there are no problems with it. I don’t see why those who are obviously cherry picking from the book don’t throw the book out and keep believing what they do without afiliating themselves with an outdated book.
    Religions without these ancient books I don’t have so much of a problem with, it’s easier to deal with them since they are more fuild philosophies that can change with time rather than writ in stone stories-to-believe-by.
    Personaly I find natural forces of creation and the universe to be mysterious and beautiful enough without saying ‘yay for the magic thing that makes all this possible’. Now this is the part where it accept it’s personal prefference but for me the idea of a monotheistic god cheapens existence.

  47. Thanks Fatemah. Great post. I have to agree that anyone who dismisses religion wholesale probably doesn’t have a lot of information about its incredible complexity and internal disagreements.

    Something I’ve also noticed is that progressive people who reject religion tend to be coming from a very white, colonial perspective. I know that many white progressives in America have (legitimately) felt marginalized by fundamentalist Christianity, but the black church has been a huge site of resistance, as have churches in South America. Wearing a hijab or having a picture of the Dalai Lama is sometimes an anti-imperialist statement, and MLK and Gandhi were both coming from a religious perspective… It takes a very specific social position to view religion as always being oppressive.

  48. Wow… timely post. I’m a sometimes reader of this blog. I’ve been thinking about both feminism and religion as of late. More specifically feminism and Catholicism. I don’t feel as though I’ve compromised my feminist values to go back to the Church in which I was raised and fell away from after college. I never lost my belief in God but my need for the church was minimal. As an adult, I’ve gone back with eyes wide open. There will always be things that trouble me about the church and religion in general, but I have this faith and belief in God that keeps me holding on.

  49. Okay, here’s the thing. In the larger society, atheism is far from the norm. Most people observe at least one holiday that is faith-based, whether or not they truly believe in a higher power. To not do so, as I do, that makes me somehow suspect, and doing kind of a disservice to my child that we don’t celebrate anything at all beyond Halloween. And think the current candidates for President, each one stating that their faith in God and the church is a very important part of their lives.

    And I come from a very, very religious household. It is a lefty religious, but EXTREMELY religious nonetheless. I had to go to church every Sunday that I was home up until I was seventeen. I had duties within the church that I was expected to fill. My parents are hardcore, as is most of my extended family.

    I don’t bring up my atheism. It is only in my chosen circle of friends that it isn’t seen as some kind of aberration. Even at the clinic I used to work at, the fact that I didn’t acknowledge Christmas even just a little bit struck them as odd.

    I get that religious feminists feel marginalized in the lefty community. I do try to respect their beliefs, and it sucks that they are given crap about it. But please remember that those of us without any religious inclination at all are marginalized in the larger community, and it is nice to have some kind of safe space.

    Heh, I guess having to go to a religious based service this past weekend has colored my perceptions.

  50. Adding my voice to the chorus of thanks for this thoughtful post. I’m also uncomfortable with the blanket condemnation of religious/spiritual belief on many progressive blogs.

    Being Jewish wasn’t a choice for me; it’s part of who I am and connects me to my family and my history. But belief in God is a choice, and it’s a choice I make in search of meaning. The God of my understanding is not anthropomorphic and therefore certainly not male, and there’s ample precedent within Jewish thought for my belief system.

    Judaism has a deep and troubling patriarchal past, and I struggle with that – but then the US has a troubling patriarchal history and so does my profession, and I’m still an American and a doctor. I find no contradiction between my religious beliefs and my feminism. I found a home in Reconstructionist Judaism because the movement is feminist and egalitarian and, as its name implies, encourages us to reconstruct our observance so they are based on our values.

    I am Jewish. I believe in God. I am a feminist. No contradictions.

  51. I wonder if we’re making any distinction between organized religion and individual spiritual beliefs. Reading through the thread they seem to be interchangeable. I am one of those “progressives” who dismisses religion. I am most familiar with Christianity, and I dismiss that because it so incredibly outdated and problematic that I don’t see the point in trying to reinterpret it. I think it would be more productive to begin afresh. Talking to Jewish people I know, there doesn’t seem to be much difference between the two religions- they are both large groups of people who have certain rules that one must follow in order to belong to that group. The rules were created by men a hell of a long time ago, and many are irrelevent today. I don’t know anything about other religions and therefore I don’t comment on them.

    My reason for this post is that we’re talking about feminists dismissing religion. I am wondering if what you really mean by this is spiritual beliefs. I believe in a higher power, and I would never attack someone for whatever their personal beliefs are. However, when it comes to following irrelevent rules created by the patriarchy in order to belong to the social club that is organized religion, I see no reason why I shouldn’t be dismissive. To me these are very different things.

  52. Fatemeh: Hypatia, I view atheism and agnosticism as belief systems because, even though they aren’t necessarily uniform, they inform their adherents’ views of the world through things like science, for example.

    To me, at least, it seems like there is a big double standard in that you point out that it’s absurd to generalize across the varieties of religious faith, (in fact, I’ll even go so far as to argue that “Abrahamic tradition” is an weak generalization) but then generalize across broad swaths of atheistic philosophy. Just as an example, there are strong secular arguments against the modernist conceit that all the answers can be found in science.

  53. exholt– Well, I didn’t mean it that way.

    I figured as much.

    Thanks for posting the Carl Sagan video. Very interesting and I enjoyed learning of his perspective.

    Personally, I am an agnostic more than anything else. I’ve been of the opinion that one’s belief or lack of belief in a higher being is one’s own personal business and should not subject the individual concerned to ridicule provided s(he) does not violate this through unsolicited prothetyzation, intolerance, or harassment of others who do not share his/her beliefs or his/her own interpretation of such.

    To think one’s particular belief in a higher deity or the lack of such belief automatically confers higher intelligence and sophistication upon the individual concerned is IMO the height of egotistical hubris.

  54. Hypatia, I view atheism and agnosticism as belief systems because, even though they aren’t necessarily uniform, they inform their adherents’ views of the world through things like science, for example. So, while it’s a scientific fact that our bodies decompose after death, many atheists BELIEVE that that’s it, there’s nothing else, while someone from an Abrahamic religion will most likely believe in an afterlife or heaven. That’s a belief.
    There are also international atheist societies and conferences; atheism may well be on the way to making itself an organized system.

    See, I take issue with this part as well. Just because you and most of the world were brought up to believe in, and have faith in, something does not mean everybody thinks this way.

    So many religious people take issue with the “theory” of evolution and suchlike, seeing science as a belief system. But while some athiests may become hidebound, unquestioning belief is the antithesis of science. When you stop questioning, you stop being a part of this “belief”.

    I “believe” in science because I believe in questioning. Nothing is ever proven, only dis-proven. Theories are accepted as a premise from which to learn more, not as unshakeable truth. I believe our conciousness ends with our death because it is the most logical to me, but with our lack of understanding of the human brain and the universe itself frankly nothing would surprise me. Except perhaps that a god or gods exist in the most literal sense, which seems far too fanciful and symptomatic of human fears to be true.

    I appreciate that religious people get sick of being talked down to, but trust me so do athiests. I would never tell someone their belief is stupid, no matter how I may rant to athiest peers when I’m angry. I will never make someone feel small or below me for expressing their faith, which is such a big part of them. (And yes, in regard to the main point of this post, I get angry when people’s belief systems are dismissed, believe it or not)

    I believe many people need a faith system, and for a few I believe it is integral to their goodness of spirit. I enjoy the rituals and peace they can bring. That does not mean I do not resent the divides religion brings, the way children are caught up in it when they’re too young to use discernment, leaving so much of the world agnostic but with an inner feeling of doubt because they were told over and over that their way of seeing the world is the only way.

    I believe religion has no place in a world that is truly globalised, for if you believe your faith is reality how will you ever reconcile that to the millions of other people who believe otherwise? It makes me happy to see people of different religions and cultures and languages and phenotypes living together in genuine amity but how often does that happen? I’m a proponent of “salad bowl” rather than “melting pot” but seldom does religion have a place in an integrated society.

    I don’t want to offend anyone but I am sick of Christians (for those are the only people I’ve ever had shove their religion down my throat) telling me I believe as blindly as them, yet if I express my beliefs I am somehow oppressing them? I do not say these things to people of faith unless they bring it up first, but if you do I refuse to hold silent.

  55. Krista: Ultimately, the Abrahamic traditions end up giving you only two ways to look at the facts. The first is that their fundamental texts were the works of the cultures that produced them and reflect the cultural mores of the time, which kind of undercuts the idea that there is anything divine about them. The other path is to accept the divine inspiration of these texts, which means that all the built in patriarchy was put there by God. Anything else leaves one with either an impotent God who does not have the power to make itself clearly understood or an unconcerned God who doesn’t care to make itself understood. Even if you reduce the gender of god to a grammatical conceit you still leave a message, one that is supported by the fact that the only messengers this god has chosen have been (often militant, aggressive, genocidal) males. Still, I should recognize my prejudice here: my own faith is a relatively individualistic, inwardly focused one and I have a tendency to view Abrahamic religions as pretty monstrous for reasons that don’t really belong in a discussion like this. So, I’m definitely open to the idea that I might be seeing things from the wrong angle.

    Regardless, I think Fatemeh’s underlying point is sound: that faith has an important place in the lives of many people and that it can be a source of incredible strength, resilience, empowerment, and social good.

  56. All One: Dianic Wicca is a tiny sect of a tiny faith that was started by men. Its barely been in existence for thirty years. Besides, if we’re talking about patriarchy, we really shouldn’t be holding up an exclusionary group simply because they attempt to invert the power dynamic. Now, I’d love for the newer faiths to have an equal market share, for them and their followers to matter in the discussion, I’d love to not feel like an outsider who has to hide my beliefs when religion comes up, but the reality is that people who don’t fall into the big five represent a pretty insignificant minority. Saying that the “five biggest religions in the world were started by men” isn’t a oversimplification, its a recognition that most of the people on the face of the earth who express religious faith do so in a system that is rooted in patriarchy. I mean, you’re talking about somewhere between 68% and 88% of the world’s population.

  57. Thanks for this post. I often feel a sense of separation between my ‘Christian life’ and my ‘feminist life’, which is too bad, since both are very important aspects of who I am. I am trying to find a feminism that will embrace my Christianity rather than simply tolerating it.

    My two cents on “organized” Christianity: Yes, there are a lot of Christian denominations and congregations that preach an antifeminist message. For those of us Christians who have a problem with that, I don’t think “these are my individual beliefs, but I’m against the organized church” is the only option. Rejecting the church (and I’m using the term loosely here) means rejecting a wealth of resources, a supportive community in Christ, and a lot of opportunities to grow spiritually and help others do the same.

    If the modern church is antifeminist, we need to reform the church, not run away from it.

  58. All One: “I attend a spiritual center that is based on the Quantum Physics understanding of matter.”

    No. No, you don’t. You may well attend a spiritual center that uses the words “quantum physics”, but nothing they do is based on quantum physics. Trust me. I’m a physicist. To contradict some of the more common statements: quantum mechanics says nothing about consciousness, interconnectedness, “vibrations” that let you get energy for free, or anything else of that nature. There is absolutely nothing spiritual about quantum mechanics. (It’s still pretty cool, though.)

    Fatemeh: “So, while it’s a scientific fact that our bodies decompose after death, many atheists BELIEVE that that’s it…”

    Atheism and agnosticism are not belief systems. You don’t have to believe in science to be an atheist – all you have to do is not believe in god. If you found a black atheist, that wouldn’t mean all atheists were black, would it? Of course not.

    Also, you’re committing the fallacy of negative proof. Atheists don’t “believe” something about life after death – they just don’t believe in life after death. That’s not something which requires proof, and doesn’t constitute a belief. I don’t believe there’s a pink elephant in my bathroom at the moment. That’s not a _belief_ – it’s the absence of a belief, in light of the absence of any evidence.

    Don’t get me wrong – by all means feminism should embrace those of faith as well. But since religion rejects logic, arguments for it tend to suffer.

  59. “Hypatia, I view atheism and agnosticism as belief systems because, even though they aren’t necessarily uniform, they inform their adherents’ views of the world through things like science, for example. So, while it’s a scientific fact that our bodies decompose after death, many atheists BELIEVE that that’s it, there’s nothing else, while someone from an Abrahamic religion will most likely believe in an afterlife or heaven. That’s a belief.”

    – Fatemeh

    I’m afraid to say this is pure, unadulterated *bollocks*. If my neighbour tells me there is an invisible, intangible (pink) unicorn at the bottom of his garden, and I go and take a look, and say “I’m sorry – there’s nothing here”, am I ‘believing’ in ‘a-unicornism’?

    Your post spends a great number of paragraphs bewailing your critics’ failure to properly understand the details of your position. Perhaps you should spend thirty seconds trying to understand the broader features of theirs, rather than stating what you ‘believe’ they believe.

  60. CBrachyrhynchos: I admit I have a limited understanding of organized atheism. It wasn’t my intention to make generalizations.

    Shfree, I agree that those “without religious inclinations” are also victims of discrimination. That’s why I included atheism and agnosticism in the post; these are both valid ways to structure one’s viewpoints, and religion or “lack” thereof really shouldn’t discount a person’s feminism or open them up to discrimination.

  61. Whoooooboy the comments in this section are pissing me off. I’m going to work on civility. 🙂

    First off, lumping all Christians under one heading of “Christianity” and saying that we all believe X, is so ignorant, it’s just unreal. For example, someone said, “ll Abrahamic religions have the story of Adam, Eve, and the serpent, but the only one that interprets that story to mean that sin and death entered the world through Eve is Christianity.” No. *some branches of Christianity*. Certainly not the one I belong to (which is the largest Protestant denomination in Canada – we’re not some tiny little sect on Hornby Island, or something – i.e. pretty mainstream).

    Then there’s this: “I believe religion has no place in a world that is truly globalised, for if you believe your faith is reality how will you ever reconcile that to the millions of other people who believe otherwise?”

    Well, not all of us are ‘one true way’ types. Not all of us have a problem with people believing things we don’t. In fact, that’s the whole bloody idea of ecumenicalism. Now yes, that’s often just within Christian denominations, but not always. My church is specifically clear about treating other religions with respect. My favourite metaphor is this: If you ask 10 people I know to describe me, you’re going to get 10 different answers. Including different names and titles. Tell me how God is going to be any different.

    And my “favourite”… The idea of the post is to say, “It’s not ok to be dismissive” (yes?), but immediately, people start up with the reasons why it is okay. It’s like the posts that say, “It’s not okay to be racist” and comments saying, “But are “.

    So thank you, Fatemeh, for this post. I just wish more people Got It.

  62. I really Loved this post, Fatemeh! Thanks for writing this piece. I too believe that religion gets unfair treatment in classrooms and I think most of the time professors fail to make a distinction between religion that is practiced personally and religion that is used by politicians to further their own personal gains. They fail to see the experience with God, as you mentioned, and rather focus on how people use religion to control others, especially females.

    It’s ridiculous with some of the religion bashing in the comments posted above. It makes me wonder if people really understand the true spiritual traditions of religions. I totally agree with Luna, we are not all “one true way” types. Faith is something very personal, just like being in touch with your femininity is personal, and if someone were to degrade women and insult them, of course we would all get defensive. What people don’t seem to realize that insulting, generalizing, and stereotyping about an entire religion can be just as hurtful, because it attacks one’s heart.

    People who are so quick to criticize religion should visit different places of worship, meditate with Christian mystics, Buddhist monks, with Islamic Sufis, or with Jews and Hindus and others — they don’t have to believe anything, they just should visit different houses of worship and learn how to appreciate them for what they are.

    And this is for Pip,

    Your narrow-minded way of judging someone just reveals how intolerant you are towards other people’s beliefs. If you don’t believe in God, that’s fine, but that doesn’t mean that you have to be a pompous bully and behave as if you know everything. If anything, it seems like you’re threatened by a person who is not only a feminist, but also a devout Muslim. Thinking that the two are incompatible is to think that there is one set way of how a feminist (or Muslim) should be.

    Just let people ~Be~ people. Fatemeh didn’t make any attacks on people for NOT believing in God. She didn’t make insulting remarks about the big bang theory or about atheists. She has the right to defend what she believes in and if that offends you and gets you all upset for whatever reason, then that’s on you.

    Salaam/Peace

  63. *sigh*

    It would be very nice to have a discussion around this that’s not centered on talking about bad intolerant straw atheists on one side, and conservative traditional straw theists on the other side. Unfortunately, this does not appear to be that discussion.

  64. Chel: While religion is/was indeed used to enslave POC, oppress women and gays, etc., it’s entirely possible for such to happen without the aid of religion because of simple patriarchy. Craniometry, for example, is a totally nonreligious pseudoscientific idea that was used to justify subjugating POC because “they’re just not as smart as we are.” Women are paid less for equal work and denied promotion because they “can’t do the job as well as a man,” from a totally subjective viewpoint. (There’s a really interesting study I read somewhere, where a surveyed group was asked to rate the quality of newspaper articles, and the ones with a man’s name on top were rated consistently higher even if they were in actual fact written by women.)

    People will use ideas to oppress other people whether those ideas are religious or not.

  65. What people don’t seem to realize that insulting, generalizing, and stereotyping about an entire religion can be just as hurtful, because it attacks one’s heart.

    Except, of course, when it comes to insulting, generalizing, and stereotyping about atheists. Which Fatemeh took steps to avoid, unlike many of religion’s “defenders” in this thread.

    She didn’t make insulting remarks about the big bang theory or about atheists.

    Well, I’m wondering what the heck the big bang theory, (the creation of a Jesuit Priest) has to do with atheism?

  66. The reason why many people really get twitchy over the political frame of atheism as a “belief system” is because its the exact same frame used in attempts to squeeze religion into places where it shouldn’t be. The argument goes something like this:

    1: atheism is a belief system
    2: belief systems are synonymous with religions
    3: therefore, curriculum that does not explicitly include god is religious instruction

    Which is why I get a bit irritated when, during a discussion of atheism, suddenly people start namedropping theories like “evolution” and “big bang.” Dover had people of faith on both sides of the battle.

  67. CBrachyrhynchos,

    Fatemeh didn’t make insults or generalizations about atheists. You say she took steps to avoid stereotyping atheists, but that’s your interpretation. There is no indication of that. She is talking about being a feminist who believes in God, not about theists versus atheists.

    Not all atheists believe in the big bang theory, I know, I was just thinking of examples of some beliefs that Fatemeh didn’t attack.

    If you read my post, all I’m saying is that we should respect people for who they are and what they believe. Agree to disagree, simple as that : )

    Fatemeh put it best here:

    “Feminism, as I learned it, is about respect and dignity for all people. I think that should include feminists who have faith.”

    So yeah, I don’t see what the problem is here.

  68. Broken Mystic: Fatemeh didn’t make insults or generalizations about atheists. You say she took steps to avoid stereotyping atheists, but that’s your interpretation. There is no indication of that. She is talking about being a feminist who believes in God, not about theists versus atheists.

    Well, first, I thought I said this. And secondly, while she didn’t make insults or generalizations, she did frame this theists at odds with atheists. And some of the commentary has been insulting and overgeneralizing about atheists.

  69. Well it’s true that certain people overgeneralize about atheists, but people do it the other way around too. They think evolution equates atheism, when in actuality, there are religious people who *do* believe in evolution (Pope John Paul II, for example).

    I don’t see anything in Fatemeh’s article that intentionally tries to upset atheists. I see it as someone calling for acceptance. I think, ultimately, we should appreciate the fact that there are religious feminists out there.

    I personally believe that we all essentially want the same things in life, regardless if you believe in God or not. We all want to be treated equally and as human beings. This is subsequently our journey for Love and Peace. Some believe in God, and some don’t — is that really an obstacle? It becomes a problem when there are extremists on ALL SIDES — religious nuts bent on banning evolution from schools, and atheist nuts bent on insulting God and religion. If this is the mentality of people, then there’s always going to be conflict.

    But there *are* people who know better. People who know how to accept each other for who they are. Again, I truly believe that’s the point of Fatemeh’s article.

    Salaam/Peace

  70. It would be very nice to have a discussion around this that’s not centered on talking about bad intolerant straw atheists on one side, and conservative traditional straw theists on the other side. Unfortunately, this does not appear to be that discussion.

    CBrachyrhynchos,

    I hope you were not referring to my first comment as they were experiences I countered firsthand and/or witnessed during my undergrad years.

    All my experiences prove IMO is that some atheists, especially the huge number I encountered at my undergrad institution are not immune from being as virulently intolerant of people with different beliefs/ideas as their virulently intolerant religious counterparts. As corny as it sounds, it is IMHO…part and parcel of the human condition.

  71. exholt: Well, yes, your choice to talk about atheism in terms of campus loudmouths and Stalinists certainly is a part of the problem, as are those posts that overgeneralize about religious faith. The posts that overgeneralize about religious faith draw protest on the grounds of “accepting people for who they are” but similar statements about what we do and who we are left unexamined.

    And perhaps I’m just a bit grumpy today, but it certainly felt as if this whole thing was framed along the lines of mutual antagonism, and your statement that you were just talking about “some atheists” comes too little and too late.

  72. And perhaps I’m just a bit grumpy today, but it certainly felt as if this whole thing was framed along the lines of mutual antagonism, and your statement that you were just talking about “some atheists” comes too little and too late.

    And that was the reason why I specified that this was most likely due to the uniquely progressive radical-left political orientation of my undergrad campus at the end of my very first comment. On that campus, they were the overwhelming majority at the time I was there and behaved in ways very much like the worst stereotypes of the religious right fundamentalists in the US and religious fundamentalists in other parts of the world.

    Moreover, I mentioned the Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist-Maoists not only because one particular commenter was displaying remarkable historical ignorance/amnesia regarding avowed atheistic groups, but also because a branch of my family had firsthand experience living under such regimes and it was just as oppressive and tyrannical as living under other totalitarian regimes where no dissent is allowed..not too far removed from a theocratic regime beyond the religious trappings from what I’ve heard from high school and college classmates who lived under theocratic regimes before immigrating to the US.

    Furthermore I get quite fed up with some Progressives who attempt to downplay or ignore the oppressive tyrannical nature of Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist-Maoists dictatorships, especially when every American/Westerner I’ve met who does this has never experienced firsthand or knew anyone who has actually lived under such regimes as they were born and raised in upper/upper-middle class nearly all-White suburbs.

  73. exholt: Furthermore I get quite fed up with some Progressives who attempt to downplay or ignore the oppressive tyrannical nature of Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist-Maoists dictatorships, especially when every American/Westerner I’ve met who does this has never experienced firsthand or knew anyone who has actually lived under such regimes as they were born and raised in upper/upper-middle class nearly all-White suburbs.

    Well, then you are fed up with me. Because I’m rather sick and tired of having Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist-Maoist straw men, thrown in my face whenever these discussions about theism and atheism develop. And while it seems that you have a very reasonable grudge, perhaps you should actually vent that justified anger at the people responsible for those opinions rather than at people participating in this discussion.

    How the heck am I supposed to respond in this discussion now that my beliefs have been compared unfavorably with religious fundamentalists and totalitarian dictatorships?

  74. As long as I don’t dismiss the women wearing push up bras, I can personally think they’re a little bit stupid, right?

  75. And while it seems that you have a very reasonable grudge, perhaps you should actually vent that justified anger at the people responsible for those opinions rather than at people participating in this discussion.

    I can assure you I have many times….even at the risk of dealing with incessant BS and heckling from those classmates and social ostracism for my challenging them on this and on their insistence that Marxist/Maoist was good for the Chinese people which I strongly disagreed with in light of my family’s experience and many other Chinese immigrants who lived during that period.

    I also had fears of grade retaliation my very first semester as some of the Profs I’ve had held similar Marxist-oriented views and I previously had conflicts with some high school teachers. Fortunately, this was all clarified in office hours where on top of assuring their professionalism, they actually expressed admiration for my willingness to challenge my classmates in light of their being the majority, my well-argued points in class and did good work. Being relieved, especially after receiving my first semester’s grades, I was motivated to stand my ground for the rest of my undergrad career.

    In many ways, the behavior of those classmates is summed up best by Ashley’s following statement:

    Something I’ve also noticed is that progressive people who reject religion tend to be coming from a very white, colonial perspective.

    As for bringing it up Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist-Maoist regimes in this discussion, it was prompted by Chel, another commenter who wrote:

    …atheists haven’t tried to enslave people of color, women, or strip gays of their rights on a broad scale, and then say that ‘everyone’s going to burn for eternity who doesn’t follow along!).

    which is either a sign of remarkable historical ignorance/amnesia considering what transpired in the former Soviet Union, Maoist China, and other states ran along Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist-Maoist lines during the 20th century.

    While I will grant you as I’ve stated in a previous comment on this very quite that atheism was not the motivating factor, those Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist-Maoist regimes were ran by avowed atheists in tyrannical oppressive ways that ended up killing millions ranging from Stalin’s massive purges of dissidents including the Kulacks in the 1930’s to the unknown millions killed in the wake of Mao’s Cultural Revolution during the 1960’s and 70’s.

    Sorry if this makes you feel I am comparing your atheism with the iniquities of those regimes. I cannot, however, allow such historical ignorance/amnesia go unchallenged not only as a longtime history student, but also someone who had family who suffered as a result of such regimes.

  76. exholt: With all respect, my sympathy for your point of view is tempered by the fact that “godless communism” is daily used as a rhetorical bludgeon justifying discrimination against me and mine in matters lofty and mundane, usually by white, middle-class Americans. As far as I’m concerned, we are in consensus that those regimes were horrible, as horrible as National Socialism during WWII. But I’ve seen so many other discussions that devolved into rhetorical pissing matches about the number of people victimized by oppressive ideologies, and I’m baffled as to how this will achieve more respectful discourse between people with different points of view.

    So I’ll ask you directly. How do you think we enable that discussion?

  77. So I’ll ask you directly. How do you think we enable that discussion?

    Though I grant you this may be a weak attempt, I will do it by asking the following question:

    Are there ways atheists, agnostics, and those with theistic beliefs can have a frank honest discussion about their personal beliefs while maintaining due civility and respect to each other?

    Interestingly enough, I had a similar discussion with older Christian cousins when they attempted to prothletyze during a summer during my undergrad. In responding to their unsolicited prothletyzing attempts, they also felt I was putting their faith on the spot by pointing out how Christianity’s practitioners had a long brutal murderous history from the Crusades to the roles they played in furthering Western/Japanese colonialism in non-Western civilizations like China. They were even more displeased when I made plain my sympathies for the Boxers who started an insurrection against Western/Japanese imperialism in the misnamed “Boxer Rebellion” in 1900, especially when I mentioned that it was prompted by years of high-handed arrogance by Christian missionaries and their Chinese converts against non-converts along with their rank disrespect for local Chinese customs and institutions….all backed up with Western Imperialist troops. When they attempted to discount information gained from scholarly resources and the discussions devolved into their complaining of my “attacks” on their faith, we just learned that it was better to never bring it up again.

  78. “ And this is for Pip.
    Your narrow-minded way of judging someone just reveals how intolerant you are towards other people’s beliefs. If you don’t believe in God, that’s fine, but that doesn’t mean that you have to be a pompous bully and behave as if you know everything. If anything, it seems like you’re threatened by a person who is not only a feminist, but also a devout Muslim. Thinking that the two are incompatible is to think that there is one set way of how a feminist (or Muslim) should be.
    Just let people ~Be~ people. Fatemeh didn’t make any attacks on people for NOT believing in God. She didn’t make insulting remarks about the big bang theory or about atheists. She has the right to defend what she believes in and if that offends you and gets you all upset for whatever reason, then that’s on you.”
    – Broken Mystic.
    I’ve got to confess, I’m very confused. My post was pretty brief, and contained only one point: that Fatemeh’s characterisation of atheism as a ‘belief system’ was flawed. (I won’t deny I put it strongly – that’s because I thought her point was *deeply* flawed).
    From this, I seem to be taken to be ‘narrow-mindedly’ ‘judging’ her, and get a rather insulting and ham-handed attempt at psychoanalysis for my sins. I feel I shouldn’t have to say this, that it should be obvious, but at *no point* have I ‘judged’ the author of this article, or cast aspersions on anything but the points she raised. Apparently, it’s intolerant of me to disagree with someone when they hold forth on the nature of my *own* views – despite the fact that I made no attempt to attack hers or anyone else’s (I’m guessing that Fatemeh doesn’t want “does god exist” swamping her comments thread, myself).
    Fatemeh “didn’t make any attacks on people for not believing in God”. I didn’t make any attacks on people for believing in God. Please read my post, with eyes. They help.
    She “didn’t make any insulting remarks about big bang theory”… because if she did, she would be a cretin, and I gather from the general register of her article that she seems quite educated.
    She “didn’t make any insulting remarks about atheists”. I didn’t make any insulting remarks about theists. Again, please to read my post.
    She “has the right to defend what she believes in”, sure. But, erm… didn’t she post this article? It doesn’t seem to be in reply to anything. She’s not defending herself, she’s professing an opinion – one which, by making public, I *presume* she wants discussed. And only a profoundly dishonest and rather stupid person (which again, I would presume she is *not*) would only welcome discussion that entirely agreed with what she had to say. Her right to have beliefs does not constitute a right to compel those who disagree into silence.
    This, I feel, is in fact the core of my objection (which I’ll ask you to note I previously *didn’t mention* – it’s only because I feel I have to in order to defend myself that I bring it up now) to Fatemeh’s argument, and to many of the comments on this thread especially your last towards me – yes, a religious faith can be part of your identity. But it’s part of your identity by *choice*, in the same way that left-wing or right-wing political allegiances or artistic taste, not in the same way as gender or race (which seems to be where Fatemeh is drawing her tenuous link to the principles of feminism). No-one says that Jeremy Paxman is an extremist when he chews up and spits out a politician with whom he obviously disagrees. No-one calls Prince Charles a ‘nut’ when he speaks out against some modern architectural horror. You don’t have the right to make a statement about the world *outside* yourself, and then declare that to be a part of your identity that cannot be criticised without insulting you. Well, you can – it’s a free world, mostly – but if you do, you should expect to be insulted, because the universe is out there, and it’s something we all share, not something personal to each individual. It doesn’t care what you believe about it, it just *is*, and disagreement over its nature is not a matter of personal preference or identity, it is a matter of reasonably objective enquiry.
    Claiming to be culturally Jewish, or Islamic, or whatever – that’s a part of your identity. Claiming that God exists – that’s what we call a truth claim (what *I’d* call a scientific claim, although I know you’ll disagree), something that has one correct answer and an infinity of incorrect answers independent of what we individually think or want. If you want to write the discussion off because it is sacred to you, and criticism of your beliefs about it hurts you – then you have no place talking about it at all, because you can’t be convinced, and you aren’t helping anybody else, since your ‘method’ of ‘knowing’ is utterly untestable and unverified. Universal tolerance does not extend to ideas as it does to people: ideas rise and fall on their merits, and the way they do that is through analysis and *criticism*. Sometimes fierce criticism. But it’s how science and academia works, and it’s incredibly effective at generating genuine knowledge. You want to build who you are around an idea that people are shooting at? Fine, but don’t expect them to stop shooting. They’re still aiming at the bad idea, not at you.
    Finally, with a weary sigh… no, I’m not ‘afraid’ of the fact that the author is an Islamic feminist. In fact, in so far as Islam exists, I would much rather that Muslims be feminists than not feminists. The moderating effect of any kind of progressivism on the actual content of the books of what Fatemeh calls the ‘Big Three’ makes them safer to those around them. And in a world where creationists can graduate from hard science degrees still professing a belief in a six-thousand-year-old earth, I am more than able to believe that she has managed to reconcile the two in the privacy of her own brain. I am less convinced that she has done so in a consistent manner, but that’s not the point.
    Over and out,
    Pip.

  79. Ugh. Formatting error. Sorry – my paragraph breaks have all wandered off for a tea-break somewhere on the intertubes.

  80. …atheists haven’t tried to enslave people of color, women, or strip gays of their rights on a broad scale,

    Never mind communists… you think there were no atheist supporters of slavery? You think there are no atheists who uphold patriarchy? You think there are no atheists who vote Republican? Trust me, there are plenty of atheist bigots, just like there are plenty of religious bigots, and plenty of people on both sides who believe in social justice. Religion can provide a convenient excuse for hating and oppressing other people, but we can hate and oppress each other just fine without it.

  81. What an awesome post. I just started a gender studies grad program and I find that in our class discussions people are so dismissive of religion that they neglect to disscuss how it fits within the framework of whatever the days topic maybe. I also think that it is necessary to discuss the ways in which religion shapes woman’s experience. Like it or not it is influential and worthy of feminist analysis.

  82. William,
    My point was that the gross generalization was offensive. I am not Wiccan or Dianic. I pointed that practice out because they exclude men and it is an extreme contrast to what is being thought of as a standard in all religions- that the men force the women into their oppressive religious structure. As for it being originated by men or a branch of a male religion, I don’t know if you are acurate or not. Frankly, I haven’t studied that group that deeply.
    I have encountered many oppressive religions in studies, documenting abroad as well as from within my biological families experience.

    My spiritual practice is not oppressive.
    I am a member of Agape (which means unconditional love) and you are welcome at my table.
    We do not serve guilt, shame nor do practice exclusion.

    Signed,
    A spiritual, scientist, artist, feminist, mother, film maker, woman
    who is tired of the offensive generalizations about religion.

  83. Charon,
    We do not know each other. You have not met and read the credentials of the 10,000 members of the Spiritual Center I attend. There are scientists, bankers, hip-hop artists, wrestlers, philosophers, professors, film makers, drag queens, etc. in that group of 10,000. Of the scientists who attend services (neuro science), 3 were part of the experiment that studied the effect of meditation on Buddhist monks brains. While I studied physics, I’m sure I’m not anywhere near the level you’re at. I would prefer you speak to a spiritual physicists perspective on spiritual practices.
    I think I understand your desire to dismiss my perception (and it is all a matter of perception in the long run).

    I can identify a practice that works with my subconscious mind. I can speak of my 35 yrs. of Yoga practice. The many years I spent as a skeptic and how my perception changed. I can create ritual/habits that have a chosen effect. I can speak of my perception of indigenous spiritual practices I’ve documented and participated in, but, frankly, I feel you are judging without knowing much about it. You didn’t ask, you made a statement based on an assumption about me.
    I’ve been around that block before, not going around it with you.

    The elephant in the room is the gross generalization that leads to prejudice and discrimination towards people who have a perception of spirit that you may not share.

    My science is cultural anthropology.

  84. For some
    God is defined as non dual,
    not male or female, not black or white-
    not judging, shaming or guilting,

    just omnipresence and

    compassion.

  85. I fully agree that there is an overwhelming tendency within feminist discourse to exclude religion/spirituality. I agree that it must often lead to many difficulties for believers to reconcile their feminism with their belief, although obviously, this is not an impossible task and does not need to be made harder by adding a layer of silence around it.

    I am not comfortable with token acknowledgement of religions besides the big 3 monotheist religions yet only defending feminist believers of the big 3 monotheist religions. The tokenism does a bad job at covering up the privilege of discussing the big 3 as it so often the case when religion/spirituality is mentioned at all.

    As an atheist, I take issue with being lumped as an implied religion.
    Can someone who has not studied all belief systems (not just The Big Three, but all belief systems, including atheism, animism, wicca, etc., as well as more well-known Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.) put forth this idea? Often, those doling out judgment on religion only focus on The Big Three (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam), ignoring other belief systems like Buddhism, agnosticism, or Rastafarianism. These are religions, too: people frame their viewpoints with these in mind.

    Atheism is not the absence of religion, a lack thereof or some non-deity spirituality (the way that buddism is). Yes, I definitely have a set of beliefs but they do not stem from holy scriptures, spiritual traditions or otherwise.

  86. Aquired Taste: it wasn’t my intention to tokenize other religions. I mean to pick apart the phrase, “ALL religions are oppressive to women” and show that a statement like this is unfairly made without study of ALL religions.

    I also stuck to examples using the Big Three because those are what I’m most familiar with.

  87. I am late to the party, but wow…thank you for writing this Fatemeh. As a Catholic feminist, you’ve expressed much of how I feel on this subject.

  88. Hmmm… I have a hard time comparing religion to issues of gender identification, race, and sexuality, because religion (ideally) is a choice.

    I’m an atheist, and I don’t feel like I should pull punches if the God topic comes up in feminist discussion. I’m proud to be an atheist, and I feel like my reasons for rejecting religion have been well-thought out.

    I understand your point – being intolerant doesn’t help me or feminists who do believe in God. So it’s a waste of time and not good for the mission. And perhaps I’m quibbling a little bit over the degree of reverence we should give people’s choices in this matter. If that’s the case, it seems like a silly quibble. I believe in respecting other people’s choices just like any resonable person. But I don’t believe that respect should extend to allowing them to say things I disagree with while I keep my mouth shut.

    Let me know if I’m misinterpreting some stuff. I think that generally, we’d probably agree mostly on this.

  89. Fabulous thread! Thanks for bringing this topic up, Fatemeh.

    We really need to be clear about the separation of “religion” and “spirituality” here. “Religion,” especially as the “big three” are concerned, certainly arises from patriarchal/ classist/ often also racist interests. Take, for example, the genesis of the Bible–experiences written by men, collated by men, authorized by men, at the expense of potentially equally valid accounts from women’s perspectives, such as the gospel of Mary Magdalene, or from “pantheistic” perspectives, such as the Gospel of Thomas (now, I’m not a Bible scholar; I’ve just recently become interested in these two). The thing here is, when it’s about religion, it’s about The Law and social regulation, and conservative literalists of Dobson’s ilk tend to confuse “the word of God” with “the words of God as written down by the authoritative voices of men who’ve been around but use imperfect language to capture a DUDEWHOANOSHITDANGIT experience.” However, The Law (aka religion aka what’s written down in the Torah or the Bible) has really very little to do with authentic spirituality. Donald Miller describes this very well in “Blue Like Jazz,” BTW.

  90. exholt: The problem is, I don’t disagree with you on either the facts or the interpretation of history. I’m asking how we can move from pointing the finger at past injustices to the kinds of dialog that might help prevent future injustice.

  91. exholt: The problem is, I don’t disagree with you on either the facts or the interpretation of history. I’m asking how we can move from pointing the finger at past injustices to the kinds of dialog that might help prevent future injustice.

    From my studies of past injustices of history in East Asia and how it continues to affect people in the current time period, the effective way to have this kind of dialog is to have a frank honest discussion of past injustices ASAP in order to acknowledge and confront them head on.

    Sweeping it under the rug as one commentator here has seemingly done or attempting to suppress/discourage such discussions as the historical right-wing revisionists in Japan, Germany, and the US ends up doing little except to forestall such discussion to a later time when discussion will be just as, if not more difficult due to more passage of time and thus, the ability by perpetrators and their supporters to further forget/rationalize the past injustices.

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  93. You make the point that it isn’t the religion that is oppressive, but the male interpretation of a particular religion that is oppressive. This i pretty much agree with. But, shouldn’t your first task be to eliminate this male dominated interpretation? As long as this male interpretation exists, then the women who go to these churches or follow some of these respective religions will be oppressed.
    You raise the point that, people cannot truly determine if a religion is oppressive or not unless they have studied all the intricacies and past of the religion. Does this imply that you know all these details and intricacies about these religions or do you consider yourself one of the people you say should not generalize religion due to a lack of understanding? I have to respectfully disagree with your point though. To me, the main religions have become so commercialized, simplified, and twisted that knowing its past and other details really is not necessary in understanding it or making generalizations about them. I think the more important point is whether or not religion is even true. You may call it uninformed, but i feel that one thing all religions do have in common is that they are unproven fairy tales created by humans.

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