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A Brief(?) Addendum

Exholt left a comment on my last post that I thought warranted further discussion:

Hate to be cynical, but most parents of undergrads and the undergrads themselves I’ve met in college, the workplace, and in grad school tend to not care or be willing to understand what education in the sense that you and I are thinking about. Most don’t really care from my experience and the few that do are confused and thrown off by the academic environment which is often alien to anything they experienced unless they were academics themselves or were MA/MS PhD students in non pre-professional programs. Heck, even my lawyer uncle has admitted the only reason he could understand some of what I’ve experienced was the fact he was a PhD candidate before he bailed for law school due to being fed up with a toxic departmental environment.

As Bitter Scribe has alluded, the vast majority only care about paying the tuition to get that piece of paper with the B.A./B.S. label on it with a perfect transcript to match so these undergrads can parlay them into some sort of a lucrative/prestigious job/grad school. This tendency is especially bad at many top-tier research universities where the priority of most undergrads from what I’ve seen is to land that highly lucrative job like ibanking/finance/business or to gain admission to topflight MBA/Law programs.

So long as one manages to graduate with a decently high GPA whether gotten through one’s own hard work, browbeating Profs/TAs, or in extreme cases…cheating…few parents will be overly concerned. Unfortunately, this trend was already underway when I was an undergrad and has only gotten worse after I graduated from what I’ve heard from current Profs and TAs.

I didn’t want to admit it at first, but exholt raises a good point. Sure, I’ve met parents and students who aren’t happy with the way things are – in fact, one of my current students is enrolled at a university, but is taking classes at my community college because she doesn’t want to be taught by a grad student. (I didn’t have the heart to tell her that many community college instructors are also grad students.) The fact that US News and World Report publishes the numbers of classes taught by TAs and lecturers indicates that it’s of at least some concern. But… I’ve also read that students routinely report high satisfaction with their classes. I think part of this is due to simple ignorance – many students don’t realize that part-time positions exist – but if the degree is the only thing that matters, then it makes sense that they don’t care if the actual education is substandard.

So I started thinking about this pervasive idea of degrees as market items and academia as a capitalist system. And I wondered – what if we used this market mentality to our advantage? A huge part of advertising is convincing people they need something they didn’t know they needed. You show people a picture of a TV and tell them they’re not going to be happy until they get it. Well, here’s a compelling narrative we can use to convince middle-class parents that they need real professors teaching their students: If your child is taught by overworked, underpaid instructors and grad students, then the job training s/he gets won’t be as good. Employers know which schools aren’t giving their students good job training. If your child isn’t taught by professors, then your child won’t get the best job!

Is it oversimplifying the matter? Yeah, to an extent. But it’d get people’s attention. If we think like advertisers, then it becomes clear that this situation isn’t going to be a crisis until we make it a crisis.

Now, there are logistical problems, obviously. This would need to be combined with aggressive union action to have any lasting effect. Furthermore, by “we” I mean “people with money to create ad campaigns,” which certainly doesn’t include me. And, most importantly, it only barely begins to address the oppression going on within academia.

But there’s a deeper problem, too. The idea of pandering to selfishness and consumerism makes me very, very uneasy – not only because it’s unethical, but because it can easily backfire. I just started reading Righteous Indignation, a collection of Jewish social justice essays, and this passage really affected me:

In contrast to the Republicans and the Religious Right, the Democrats and progressive nonprofits generally ceded the morality debate and promoted their social justice and environmental policies from a practical and personal standpoint. For example, on economic justice issues, one heard messages such as, “Democrats will create policies that will ensure better wages for American workers. You want better wages, don’t you? And, even if you are happy with your wages, poverty breeds violence! Our policies will make your streets safer!”

Whether it was the lack of a moral language or the fear of sounding uncritically religious, progressive leaders did not sufficiently articulate social justice issues as moral issues. They shied away from talking about the values at stake (Klein 35).

Of course, this has been said before, often on this very blog. But it’s a problem we need to keep at the forefront of our movements. I’ve heard conservatives say flat-out that children without health care should be allowed to die, because survival of the fittest is the American Way. (I work in a very Republican city.) How can we create a national climate in which anyone would be ashamed to make such a monstrous declaration? Would a strategy like the one above hinder that effort?

But perhaps it varies from issue to issue. People stop listening when you try to explain how their lives would actually get better if other people’s wages were increased, because the details are complicated and there’s no obvious connection. Perhaps it’s easier to reach them when they can see that they’re not getting what they paid for.

Perhaps PR logic can be used to win the battles that warrant it.

But then, that creates the potential for broader goals to be put on the back burner in favor of quick fixes – a mistake that social justice movements have already made over and over again.

But then then, won’t we always have to wrestle with large populations of unsympathetic and self-absorbed people? Mightn’t it be best to be ready with a variety of strategies? Can we appeal to people’s self-interest while simultaneously shifting the national climate toward compassion and social responsibility? I don’t know. By employing such a tactic in order to gain a fair wage for myself and my colleagues, am I just helping to solidify the current power structure?

This is all off the top of my head, of course. What are your thoughts? What other issues (either ethical or practical) do you see with such a strategy? Can it work?

In any case, enough with the depressing adjunct stuff already, jeez. Sometime over the next couple of days I’m going to write about WALL-E and the Spirit and Opportunity Mars Rovers. Blast off to ADVENTURE!


24 thoughts on A Brief(?) Addendum

  1. Here’s the only problem I see with the “professors need to teach students” line. Yes, it increases the value of the professor, raises salaries, all the stuff you said, but it also makes it that much harder to break into academia. I went to a college where full-time profs taught 90% of all classes and we had no graduate school. Currently, I’m in between my MA and PhD and absolutely grateful for a system that lets me get some teaching experience (which also helps fund schooling) before applying for jobs in teaching. Life as a grad student is already fraught with peril, do we want to stress the entrance into academia more by cutting off a major source of funding and experience? Now, for most people this is a short term problem, I’ll only be a grad student for 7, 8 years (okay maybe a decade), but hopefully I’ll be a professor for much longer. But it could bar otherwise worthy individuals from ever getting into the system in the first place.

  2. A few points come to mind after reading this.

    – I think, in college, students themselves often set the standard in a way that they do not in high school. I think parental involvement (while important) is completely secondary when it comes to undergraduate school (in a way that it is not, I would argue, in high school).

    – I don’t buy that TAs/grad students are de facto poor teachers. Obviously youdon’t want to go through college being in classes w/ TAs, but if you are attending a state college, it is sort of part of life. And simply assuming that you won’t get anything out of it, is self-defeating. In my experience, my English-lit. type classes taught by TAs were generally horrendous, but my science classes were exponentially enhanced if led with grad students. In my personal experience, my science professors tended to have somewhat poorer communication skills while my English types knew how to talk.

    -There’s nothing wrong with focusing on a BA/BS and getting a job out of college. I am not sure why that’s a less worthy goal as opposed to “pursuit of knowledge for the sake of knowledge.” I believe class plays a huge role here in complicated ways.

    I’ve heard conservatives say flat-out that children without health care should be allowed to die, because survival of the fittest is the American Way.

    hmm. I have to say it is my personal pet peeve when thoughts, ideologies and/or people are turned into cartoons and we argue the cartoon. Statements like this doesn’t help us understand child care, health care or conservative take on the same. Liberal democrats certainly don’t have the answers. It’s seems much more fruitful to peek around everywhere and come up with the best solution.

  3. I think on some level that the US public school system smothers true, natural human curiosity and imagination and thirst for knowledge in its cradle. By the time kids get to university, it’s rare to find a student who still has that passion, who still fundamentally CARES. All the US seems to have wanted out of its students in the generation entering college now is to produce good little workers who will rack up debt to get meaningless jobs and lead empty lives, just as our corporate overlords require.

    And then, we sit back and wonder why the US lags so pitifully in the world arena when it comes to producing top-notch thinkers – scientists, mathematicians, artists. I believe that humankind is inherently curious, often almost disastrously so. That trait, properly nurtured, is what has fueled the incredible leaps in human knowledge over the last 10,000 years or so. Look how far we’ve come! And look where the US has stagnated.

    The students are definitely part of the problem in academia, but they’re victims of a much larger, more insidious culture where true learning is not valued and only the ability to bubble in test answers is rewarded. We need to go back much, much farther than freshman year of university to fix this problem, and fix it we must.

  4. But there’s a deeper problem, too. The idea of pandering to selfishness and consumerism makes me very, very uneasy – not only because it’s unethical, but because it can easily backfire.

    According to several Professors and a Dean who have taught since the 1950’s and 60’s this appeal to consumerist tendencies has been happening since the late 1960’s and was corporatized and accelerated during the 1980’s onward. Instead of a college education being an intellectual journey to expand one’s horizons and hopefully enable one to develop critical thinking and reasoning skills applicable to nearly every aspect of one’s life, college education has become quite a commodified and glorified form of “job training” where most undergrads and their parents increasingly feel entitled to loudly demand a BA/BS with a perfect transcript merely for shelling out 20k-40K+/year regardless of any effort or the lack thereof put forth by the undergrad concerned.

    The increasingly common phenomenon of helicopter parents browbeating my TA friends and their Profs over grades they feel sells short their precious undergrad, especially at the private Ivy-level campuses is the sad and extreme logical conclusion of higher education pandering to the consumerist mentality.

    What’s more sad is that these parents sometimes act on their undergrad’s behalf regardless of whether s(he) wants them to or not. For that reason alone, I feel most of the blame for this should be laid on both higher-ed administrators who have pandered to this consumerist mentality over the last few decades and the parents of undergrads who are enthusiastically buying into it and taking it to absurd extremes.

    There is also a substantial class dimension to this as from what my TA friends and some Profs have recounted, the undergrad parents who felt entitled enough to loudly browbeat TAs and Profs for better grads or other favorable treatment tend to all come from the upper/upper-middle class where their socio-economic status seems, in their mind, to give them the right to demand better grades or favorable treatment for their undergrad, regardless of the fact that in so doing they are undermining the academic institution’s integrity of process and basic fairness towards all undergrads. In so doing, their behavior screws undergrads whose parents do not have the socio-economic status and/or the inclination to effectively do an end run around the very processes which ensure institutional integrity and fairness for all undergrads.

    In my mind, this behavior is no better than attempting to get better grades through cheating or bribing the Prof/TA and I have nothing but absolute contempt for the overentitled parents and undergrads who act in this manner.

  5. You have raised so many interesting questions in these two posts. I have several thoughts about this:

    Being taught by a professor is not necessarily better. I went to a top-tier school for undergrad and in my experience the lecturers, people who were hired explicitly to teach the lower-level undergrad courses, were much better instructors than the full professors. Why? Probably because they were actually interested in teaching, whereas the professors were not. As you said, in tenure-track positions you are not rewarded for good teaching the way you are for good research. Those professors are there at a top-tier school because they are interested in research and prestige, not because they want to teach a bunch of undergrads. Unfortunately, the department I graduated from is starting to move away from lecturers, under pressure form the professors (I’m not sure why, because some of those professors are really not interested in teaching).

    I understand that you would want the title of professor so that you would get paid better and receive more respect, but I’m not sure just trying to reclaim the title “professor” is the most productive way to go about it. Personally, I think the whole education system (from K through grad school) needs an overhaul, but I guess that is reaching for the stars a bit… But I think perhaps one problem is that teaching undergrads is simply not seen as an important, respected thing to do the way research is. At so many research universities, the teaching of undergrads is often secondary.

    I agree with the points that have been raised that so many undergrads and their parents don’t seem to care about the quality of the teaching, they just want the good grades to get into med school, law school, business school, or ibusiness. This was definitely what I observed in some of my peers as an undergrad. I think this is a big part of the problem: getting an education because one really loves learning or really wants to pursue a subject in depth is no longer the reason – rather, BA/BS degrees have become required for any so-called “professional” job, and thus it has degraded into the capitalist system it is.

    I don’t really have a solution (my ideals are too high to be practical, I’m afraid), but I’m not sure buying in to the capitalist system is the way to go. Like you, it makes me uneasy, and it will just continue to perpetuate the idea that a degree is a commodity. Something to be bought, not something to be earned, or something that represents true depth and learning in a field.

  6. From a post above:
    “most undergrads and their parents increasingly feel entitled to loudly demand a BA/BS with a perfect transcript merely for shelling out 20k-40K+/year regardless of any effort or the lack thereof put forth by the undergrad concerned”

    Well, I think this 20k-40k thing is a large part of the problem. School is too expensive, and this adds to a problematic class dynamic on campuses that breeds the kind of behavior we’re talking about. A handful of privileged students aside, many students in the classes I have taught as a t.a. have often showed up in their Olive Garden uniforms, or sleepy from a long night working, or otherwise scattered from the patchwork of jobs they’re working to pay this 20k-40k a year for school (perhaps less at a state school, but not substantially). I think lots of these students are not getting noteworthy amounts of help financially from parents and are working and taking out loans to get a college degree. Note that I said “degree,” not education.

    I’m torn. My students, who have mostly been earnest kids who want nice lives (don’t we all?), are trying to buy themselves a class boost by getting that degree while a small number of their peers have mom and dad pay for their education. If I were one of my overworked Olive Garden servers, damn straight I’d want that degree and would think that my hard work — ALL of it, even the paying for school — should count. I agree that we must maintain high standards and that students don’t get A’s for showing up (and I will not be pressured into raising grades; I simply don’t do that). However, the huge, huge expense of higher ed is way out of control and is helping maintain a system in which students see us, grad student-teachers and professors alike, as their employees, even if their logic is off. Of course they don’t give a rat’s ass about our working conditions. Their working conditions are too much of a problem for them to have time to care.

    As an aside, sort of, I was in a workshop last year in which David Roediger talked about the effect of neo-liberalism on the university. As part of his comment, he remembered student protest on campuses in the ’60s and into the ’70s over administrative approaches (not just the Viet Nam war), and then expressed dismay at the lack of student protest at universities today. Yes, today, instead of taking on the high-profiting administration, students often view us as their employees and see us as standing in their way to graduating with clean transcripts while they work themselves silly. Perhaps the answer is that students need to be educated about the ways they the university is taking advantage of them and profiting from astronomical tuition rates, even at public universities.

  7. I worked very hard to graduate with honors from my university, overcoming several obstacles to do so. It wasn’t a big university, but it gave me a good education. An acquaintance of mine went to a big&famous university and was shocked to find out that I’d never asked a professor to raise my grade. Because she had, and of course, she thought that’s how … college … works.

    I started out my university track at a hugehuge state school where for the first couple of years, my average class had about 200 people in it. It sucked, to say the least, and even though actual professors were teaching us, most of them were so boring or terrible at giving information that I had a hard time with their tests. It was the, “I’m going to drone on and on for an hour and a half and you should remember everything I said because you’ll be tested on some of it later.”

    But then the GTAs weren’t much better. Some of them had the severe “power trip” thing going on, where no one ever got above a B in their class. And I did have one class taught by a 19-year-old because he was a math major and due to the sheer size of the school and need for algebra teachers, they were hiring anyone who could write math on a board. Which was all he did. Write math on a board and say, “Okay?” and step back and assume we’d gotten it all. (And no, he wasn’t some genius or anything. Just a sophomore.)

    Good basketball team, though. Too bad it seems that they care a million times more about basketball/basketball players than STUDENTS at the SCHOOL …

  8. Sorry for the double comment; I just read the other comments that went up while I was writing mine and want to respond.

    Ailei says:

    I think on some level that the US public school system smothers true, natural human curiosity and imagination and thirst for knowledge in its cradle. By the time kids get to university, it’s rare to find a student who still has that passion, who still fundamentally CARES. All the US seems to have wanted out of its students in the generation entering college now is to produce good little workers who will rack up debt to get meaningless jobs and lead empty lives, just as our corporate overlords require.

    Exactly! This is why I think the school system needs changing from K on up.

    Sonia says:

    There’s nothing wrong with focusing on a BA/BS and getting a job out of college. I am not sure why that’s a less worthy goal as opposed to “pursuit of knowledge for the sake of knowledge.” I believe class plays a huge role here in complicated ways.

    Yes, to some extent. There is nothing wrong with getting a degree because you need to get a job. But I think the deeper issue is the stifling of creativity and critical thinking that occurs from early on in public education. It’s not so much that learning for the sake of learning is better than getting a job to pay the bills, as that there is value to society (and to the individuals) in people being able to think critically and be creative and know how to seek out information on something when they need it (how to learn, in otherwords), and that is something that is seriously lacking in a lot of undergrads today.

    Yes, I think there are class issues here. People who do not have many resources need to get jobs in order to survive and don’t have the luxury to pursue “knowledge for the sake of knowledge”. However, such people would greatly benefit from an education that instilled a life-long love of learning just as much as wealthy people would. I guess what I’m trying to say is that a love of learning and needing a good job to survive do not have to be opposites – you can have both in an ideal system.

    Also, the other part of the class issue is the sense of entitlement that exhault talks about.

  9. Your automatic assumption that students are better served by being taught by full professors is problematic. Before hitting students and parents with a PR campaign, shouldn’t you make sure the impression you’re aiming for is accurate?

    I’m an undergrad at a large state research university, and I’ve found an instructor’s title to be an extremely poor predictor of course quality. I’ll grant that the worst grad student instructor and the worst TA were worse than the most awful professor (though not by much), but the best of the grad students were definitely on par with the best professors. If you want to convince people of the benefits of being taught by “real” profs, making sure the full time profs are competent teachers and give a shit about undergrad education would be a good start.

    The current academic system is broken; universities bring in more grad students because they’re cheap labor, and then–oh look!–when those grad students are looking for full time academic jobs, they can’t find any because the new crop of grad students are shouldering the teaching load at a bargain rate. I support both the hiring of more full-time faculty and the unionization of grad TAs, and I hope universities stop getting away with their exploitations. But “hire more professors” isn’t the easy fix you’re making it out to be as long as so many full time faculty members are terrible teachers.

  10. I’d be worried about the campaign you mention backfiring-even less status for TAs and lecturers, and no more professor positions. I don’t know what the solution to that is, but I’d have to say it’s more the opposite-lecturers work just as hard as professors, so make that point known.

  11. According to several Professors and a Dean who have taught since the 1950’s and 60’s this appeal to consumerist tendencies has been happening since the late 1960’s and was corporatized and accelerated during the 1980’s onward. Instead of a college education being an intellectual journey to expand one’s horizons and hopefully enable one to develop critical thinking and reasoning skills applicable to nearly every aspect of one’s life, college education has become quite a commodified and glorified form of “job training” where most undergrads and their parents increasingly feel entitled to loudly demand a BA/BS with a perfect transcript merely for shelling out 20k-40K+/year regardless of any effort or the lack thereof put forth by the undergrad concerned.

    This mirrors the change in the american economy whereby a college degree became necessary in order to achieve anything resembling “middle class” status. If I’m remembering my economic history correctly, this started to become true in the 70s. In a very real way, college (for a lot of people) is job training. Can you blame them for treating it that way? (To be clear, I’m talking about the disinterest in an “intellectual journey” here, not the bratty entitled behavior, which is inexcusable in any setting.)

  12. The NEA in NYC public schools has done a very aggressive PR campaign to help get qualified, certified teachers in schools. The fact that I still see employment ads with lucrative incentives for teachers, particularly math and science, indicates that there are many factors defeating this effort. Some of these issues, like salary, can overlap college, but overall I think PR is not enough.

    In terms of capitalism, I worked for a prop. u. and it is a great example of people purchasing degrees. There are some great people and students in these schools, but the money is spent on business, not education.

    We live in a society where if people hire illegal, low-paid labor to get a job done. Why should this not apply to college as well? Through teaching college and speaking with friends who have kids in college, I get the feeling they could care less who was at the front of the room as long as they received a degree. If you think this is bad in college, try teaching high school in an upper-middle class to upper class neighborhood. The parents are practically in the classroom ensuring their child gets all the high grades and extra-curricular activities they need to make an Ivy. The only students I have met that cared about the quality education they were receiving were older and changing careers (on their second B.A.).

    The other problem is that businesses are using college degrees as a hiring mechanism. So, without any type of degree a person can not even get an interview. This is a big factor in parents forcing kids to go to college who may not want to be there. Years ago parents said to their kids, “either go to college or get a full-time job.” The job market has changed and even jobs that do not require college, but offer good salaries require apprenticeships and training. Whatever happened to on the job training? Businesses expect kids to know so much after they graduate, but there are so much education in a job.

    Coming from a liberal arts college, I have the perspective that college is about learning, being well-rounded and last job related. Alot of highly educated people I know view college as trade school; it is a way to get a high paid job. The NY Times had an article recently about Ivy League (Harvard specifically) grads going straight for the high paying finance jobs over public service. It was interesting and the comments from alumni in the letters section a few days later were quite critical of the college.

  13. As for Professors* and TAs, my experience has been Professors tend to be evenly spread out on a continuum from Excellent to barely adequate with most leaning towards the excellent spectrum. As I attended a small private liberal arts college without any grad students and where the few undergrad TAs that existed just assisted with grading tests and helped students out when they are having difficulties, my only experiences with TAs were in a few summer courses I took at a private university both during and after graduation. In this admittedly limited experience, TAs tend to either be spectacularly great or extremely abominable. Learned a lot and enjoyed the classes where I had the spectacularly great TAs and worked extremely hard not only to learn and excel, but also to make up for what the atrociously poor TAs failed to communicate/convey effectively not due to stereotypical foreign language difficulties**, but because they were simply horrid teachers.

    * Am including lecturers, instructors, and adjuncts.

    ** IME this is almost always an BS excuse used by American undergrads to play to xenophobic prejudices in order to justify browbeating the TAs/Profs for a better grade or to excuse mediocre academic performance in class due to an unwillingness to put in the time and effort. What’s more ironic is that this excuse is even used on POC TAs who were clearly born and raised in the states. 🙄

  14. You know, exholt? I’ve always been the impression that US upper-level education is following into the same paths as education in China and Japan, especially in imperial times. In other words, what we’re seeing here in the US is mostly about how education and educational spirit follows an entropic path. A burst of talent showing how educated people can contribute, then the second generation that builds the bulk of the educational infrastructure, then a third generations that takes it for granted, a fourth generation that seeks to manipulate it as all the good jobs demand it, and a fifth generation that by and large disavows education or focuses on primary education.

  15. I agree that there needs to be a total overhaul of the education system. And as a former grad student instructor I am all for unionizing, and I would be fine even with putting caps on how many or what percentage of courses could be taught by GTAs. But it would definitely be a mistake to insist in a blanket statement that professors are somehow automatically better teachers. bell hooks is my favorite writer on the subject of how many professors view teaching as a necessary nuisance rather than a primary responsibility but since I’m at work and not next to my bookshelf I’ll have to wax anecdotal. 🙂

    I loved teaching. After finishing my degree two years ago, and due to the fact out my entire department there were two professors who I would consider decent teachers, I decided not to get my PhD and moved states with my husband to pursue a career in Domestic Violence. However, I still have students who e-mail me with questions either for advice in their personal lives or with academic questions and I’m more than happy to help because I LOVED my job and I was excellent at it. I will wager if you ask 90% of my students if they would rather have had full professor or me they’d choose me everytime. In fact, they did. I taught several different courses in my time there and my students had a habit of calling me at home before registration to see if I knew which sections I’d be teaching. I believed (and still do believe) in critical thinking in the classroom and a high level of participation and after a rough breaking in period at the beginning (due to the crap public education system in the US) this was always wildly popular. On top of the fact that I took my own time to do evening study sessions each week and was happy to see students well past office hours. Find me a professor and a large university that does that and I’ll find you 100 who wouldn’t even consider it. Most importantly I’ve had more than one student tell me that I was the only teacher they had that they felt cared about them as a person. While my lack of a PhD would have made me a crap phonetics or philosophy of gender teacher, I was excellent at the lower levels. So before launching a PR campaign berating the use of TAs I’ll have to agree with other commenters that taking a long hard look at the full professors would be in order.

  16. I know people have said this already on the thread, but having classes with TAs is, at least in my experience, not what’s causing the problem of lowering standards of education. (Okay, full disclosure, I am a TA). In my department, many tenured professors actually have the lowest standards, because many of them just don’t seem to care about their work anymore. Many of the TAs, on the other hand, are more passionate about the subject-matter and less cynical about the capabilities of the students–thus more willing to work WITH them. Most of the professors don’t try to work with the students at all, especially because of large class sizes, and this I think is really where the problem comes from. This and the fact that the students themselves don’t take much initiative: they need to be told What To Do at all times.

  17. I’m going to join with the people saying being taught by TAs is inherently not a bad thing. At my school (“top-tier” liberal arts college/major research university) I had a grad student TA for almost every class, and their duties varied–sometimes they mostly dealt with written graded work, sometimes they led a weekly section where they could clarify any issues we had with what we’d learned in class that week (or in the case of language classes, lead us in a drill section so we could practice what we’d learn the previous day in lecture). Pretty much all of them were great, very helpful and friendly and knowledgeable if I needed help.

    However, such people would greatly benefit from an education that instilled a life-long love of learning just as much as wealthy people would. I guess what I’m trying to say is that a love of learning and needing a good job to survive do not have to be opposites – you can have both in an ideal system.

    I don’t think the quality of your education is the biggest determining factor in whether or not you’ll have a love of learning. In fact, I think it is totally possible to hate school–even a really good school–and love learning. (I don’t hate school, but I don’t particularly like sitting in classrooms and taking classes; I’d much rather have conversations with people or read book and blogs and magazines and things). Also, I have to confess, I have never really seen what is so inherently great about a love of learning. I am not trying to be snarky, I really just don’t understand.

  18. Thanks, everyone – you’re giving me a lot to think about. I think the most important point people are making is that we can’t create an atmosphere in which TAs and part-times are uniformly demonized and profs are uniformly idolized, when our real goal is fair pay for those very TAs and part-timers.

    A couple of quick notes:

    Sonia – If you’re implying that my statement was a strawman, I hate to break it to you, but that quote was basically verbatim.

    Jim – Sorry, I don’t want to reveal my location. 🙂 I’ll just say that you’ve probably heard of it.

  19. You know, exholt? I’ve always been the impression that US upper-level education is following into the same paths as education in China and Japan, especially in imperial times.

    Shah8,

    Funny you say that as my father has often compared the academic grad school process in American universities to going through the empty motions aspiring scholar-officials did in writing those 8-legged essays to pass the prefectural, provincial, and metropolitan examinations to obtain respectively the shengyuan, juren, and jinshi degrees necessary to become eligible to be assigned to an imperial official post.

    As you’ve pointed out, as time went on from the Tang dynasty to the Sung to its zenith in the Ming/Qing eras, the trend has been more a tendency to memorize the 4 Confucian classics and other mandated works along with the prevailing imperial state orthodox interpretations* of said works by rote without taking too much time to even attempt to throughly understand them and their implications in terms of how they were to perform their future official duties and also how to conduct themselves in their everyday life.

    Regarding Japan, are you referring to the examinations for imperial universities after the Meiji restoration?

    I ask as while Japan did adopt aspects of the Chinese civil service exams, those exams were never as central or important in being the main conduit of producing imperial officials, especially after the Minamotos instituted the first of many shogunate governments which effectively reduced the Emperor, his imperial court and its bureaucracy to mere puppets used to maintain an air of imperial legitimacy for what was an effective military dictatorship.

    From the Minamotos till the Tokugawa gained total dominance after the 1603 Battle of Segigahara, political power and influence was more determined by military force and one’s status as a member of the samurai elite than any substantiative knowledge of the Confucian classics and the state orthodox interpretations of them. Even afterwards, there was still a strong privileging of the samurai warrior ethic that seeped not only into Tokugawa era institutions, but also ones of the Meiji, Taisho, and Showa eras as the Imperial Japanese military forces, especially Aritomo Yamagata’s Imperial Japanese Army has shown.

    * From the Sung dynasty onwards, this prevailing orthodoxy was with few exceptions variants of state orthodox Neo-Confucianism.

  20. Well, I think this 20k-40k thing is a large part of the problem. School is too expensive, and this adds to a problematic class dynamic on campuses that breeds the kind of behavior we’re talking about. A handful of privileged students aside, many students in the classes I have taught as a t.a. have often showed up in their Olive Garden uniforms, or sleepy from a long night working, or otherwise scattered from the patchwork of jobs they’re working to pay this 20k-40k a year for school (perhaps less at a state school, but not substantially). I think lots of these students are not getting noteworthy amounts of help financially from parents and are working and taking out loans to get a college degree. Note that I said “degree,” not education.

    I agree the high price tag plays a critical role in this. However, as I’ve written in previous comments, nearly all of the undergrad parents or undergrads who felt entitled to degrees with perfect transcripts in my TA/academic friends’ experience are, with few exceptions, the socio-economically privileged upper/upper-middle class undergrad parents and their undergrads. These are not the hardworking working/middle-class undergrads working multiple jobs and/or competing for the few scarce scholarships/financial aid, but well-off undergrads. We’re talking undergrads whose parents are wealthy enough after paying full tuition and expenses to send them on weekend and spring-break trips….sometimes to expensive locales such as Paris, Monaco, and Hawaii and some of them think nothing of routinely dropping $10k or more at once when purchasing “stuff they need”.

    IME and those of the TAs/academic friends I know, the hardworking working and middle-class undergrads who work multiple part-time jobs at places like Olive Garden tend to be too humble and intimidated by their lower socio-economic status and exhaustion from having too many things to juggle to even think of challenging a TA/Prof for a better grade.

    In the case of my high school classmate who is a POC from a working-class background, I heard from his friends it took a lot of cajoling/convincing to even get him to launch a complaint against his calculus Prof at an Ivy-school for blatantly failing him due to the fact he was an engineering major and that Prof had a deep animus against them.* Thankfully he did launch his complaint as there was no way in hell he deserved an F when according to that Prof’s own syllabus and my friend’s performance on tests/problem sets, he should have ended up with an -A. This was underscored when both the deans of Engineering and Arts & Sciences divisions adamantly added their support to his case when they saw the level of BS perpetuated against him.

    * Don’t know enough to say whether there may have been an element of racism in this case. My friend did not think so….though one can never be too sure considering he was breaking many prevailing stereotypes against his racial background not only by attending an Ivy-school as an engineering major, but also excelling in it.

  21. i’m a bit late to the party, but REALLY felt the need to chime in here.

    i’m 31. i am back in school (i dropped out of college at 19. because i was dumb, or rebellious, or sucidal… i don’t even know anymore. anyway).

    it costs me over $3500 a quarter to just sign up for classes – books, supplies, health insurance (required and ANOTHER $500 a quarter…), parking, lab fees…

    i pay more for school than i would earn in any entry level job that i can get with that BA i will receive next year.

    now, i’m not one of those who EXPECTS an “A” because i have mortaged my life for an education. i don’t expect to pass unless i make an effort. and i make an effort have a nice-ish GPA (it’s 3.25. its OK, nt great, but then again i have medical issues and just GETTING to the school is often impossible. i have a 3.25 and i miss over half my classes…)

    here is the thing from a students point of view. i am paying waaaaaaaaay too much. i am PAYING to do a FULL TIME JOB. ??? we are raised to expect to be PAID for that much work, not to pay to DO it! i love school. i will probably go back and back and back… but i am atypical.

    it’s backwards. i really think it should be free, at least for the BS/BA level, since it is essentially a requirment to getting any job anymore. and, if its not free, then the way we LOOK at school might need to be changed. after all, if i go and get a job as a garbage person, i will be PAID to TRAIN. but in college one PYS to train – it creates cognative dissonace(sp?) on such a level that most cannot get past it.

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