Lock Her Damn Ass Up

62 thoughts on Lock Her Damn Ass Up

1. on the one hand – i agree that you do not have sex in someone else’s house without permission, especially when you are not a legal adult. yes, expressing sexuality… but. expressing respect. did the girl live with her grandmother? and really… seriously, its dumb but what kind of 16 year old is so easily caught?

   on the other – yep, that woman needs to go to jail for aggravated assult/hate crime

2. I wandered over to look at the comments and now I’m feeling just a little ill. The only things I can even think of that a child could do worthy of a beating at that age would be the sorts of things you call the police for, not grab a cane.

   That poor girl. I hope her grandmother hasn’t traumatized her permanently.

3. That poor girl. I hope she isn’t too traumatized, and recovers physically as well.

   I don’t understand how people can have such visceral hatred toward young people consensually bringing each other pleasure, and expect them to be sexually healthy adults. Love and attraction are a part of adolescence.(For those who aren’t asexual, and sometimes then too.) For most of those people, sex is a natural outgrowth of that.

4. Corporal punishment is really hard to talk about, because most of this stuff happens behind closed doors or never gets beyond the classroom or whatever because the person doing the punishing is wielding accepted authority.

   For example, Canada has recently removed the exemptions that parents and schoolteachers enjoyed when faced with assault and battery charges. It closes a loophole that allowed certain people far too much leeway in just what punishment was enough. However, in the discourse on the cbc website and on the radio, all of the talk was about how Canada was banning spanking, with the general good image of spanking being a slap on the butts. Few people ever really pushed accross just what the actual language of the law was, or how ineffective physical punishment are for anything other than heirarchy. Those that did just got talked over.

   That comment thread about the grandma is typical of most of this kind of discussion.

5. The girl was 16 and didn’t deck her grandmother after the beating started. That’s sufficient respect in this case. The other girl was 16 also. The girls might have been more polite in better circumstances, and formally requested privacy, but clearly any mention of homosex was going to set granny off.

6. You’re done already!? Well, I was definitely glad to have you!

   What a horrible story. Lock her ass up, indeed.

7. Ugh. I agree, what a horrible story. Yes, please. Lock her damn ass up.

8. As a teen I got caught having sex in my parents’ bed with a boy not my boyfriend.

   My parents had a talk with me about responsibility, fidelity and doing laundry. And then I was told to find my own place to live if I was going to have sex with someone. I should be doing that under my own roof, in my own bed.

   To the commenter regarding respecting your grandmother’s house:

   Just because you’re old doesn’t mean you are respected or respectable. Respect is a two way street, and I would hazard a guess that Granny isn’t respected or respectable if she’d beat her grandchild TWICE (with a cooling off period in between).

   Anyone who lays their hands on another human being to harm or hurt needs to be locked up, or at the very least have their freedoms curtailed by law.

9. 1. Corporal punishment is OK by me….as long as it is controlled and done after the anger has passed, but a beating is not. there is a difference.
   2. a sixteen year old having sex IS something to get hugely angry about….the comment about ‘young people bring each other pleasure is ridiculous! There is a time and place for bringing each other sexual pleasure…it’s called marriage.
   3. I would be outraged if my child were engaging in any sex including homosex. In our family, our belief system teaches us that having same-sex attraction is not wrong….acting on it is….I would be very upset, but would not beat my kids…I would tackle the issue by other means.

10. I think different parents have different views on corporal punishment and that’s fine. Not everyone is going to agree on the best way to discipline a child.

    But when you start beating someone so bad they require medical attention, you’ve crossed the line into assault. It stops being an argument about discipline and starts being a legal issue.

11. Having sex in a house not your own may be disrespectful, but it doesn’t warrant being beaten until the cane is broken and beat next with a belt. What is WRONG with these commenters? I’m all for the odd spanking, but there’s discipline, and then there’s vindictiveness!

12. I got the impression she lived with her grandmother, not that she just went over there for sexual purposes.

    Also, I don’t see a problem with a 16 year old having sex in the home she lives in. Doing it on someone else’s bed is disrespectful, but in her own bed I can’t see a problem.

    Where are they supposed have sex, in a field?

13. Thanks Cara, I will see you in September…It was a great experience for me…BTW just wanted to say how much i LOVE your blog.

14. @kage: You’re right, the original story says

    the assault, which occurred Thursday about 5 p.m. in the residence they shared

    . Which may explain why the girl’s parents are nowhere in this story.

15. on corporal punishment.. my father used to beat me up so bad I couldn’t move and I had bruises for weeks after.. it wasn’t a one-time thing, it was his usual way of disciplining us.. when we were finally taken away from him, I hated him for all he was worth and never talked to him again, not even when he was on his deathbed.. I regret hating him because he was my father but that was the kind of emotion his disciplining brought out of me..

    on two girls having sex.. I once had a lesbian friend who was caught by her mother with another girl.. they were caught KISSING (just kissing).. the mother was so pissed off she grabbed my friend by the hair and dragged her across the street, in front of dozens of other students, and slapped her all the way home.. when she came to school the next day she had scratches on her face and arms and a nasty cut on her forehead.. her mom banged her head on the car when they got home.. she didn’t break up with her girlfriend, she dropped out of school and ran away from home.. and the mother had a nervous breakdown when she found out later on her son was gay..

    on having sex.. if you’re 16 years old and below, I advise against it, just because you’re just too young to be having it! I didn’t have it so why should you?! if it’s not your house, meaning you don’t OWN it, you’d better be careful about getting caught.. while it may well be just the sharing of pleasure of two bodies, I’d prefer if people didn’t do it anywhere they please.. it makes other people uncomfortable.. if you don’t care about making them uncomfortable, then they shouldn’t care about kicking you out of their house buck-naked..

16. This is horrible. Honestly, I hope that woman does serve time, because it’s unbelievable what she did.

    Otherwise.. I’m missing where it’s disrespectful to have sex in someone else’s house? Unless you’re doing it in the middle of their living room while they’re home, I don’t see how it’s disrespectful. So long as you keep it private and don’t make an unnecessary mess.

17. “I cannot help but wonder if she would have attempted to abuse a grandson in this manner? Though I do not know what was in her mind, I cannot help but think about the way that female sexuality is constructed by society.”

    Maybe it would have made a difference, but to me this sounds as if it’s about homophobia more than anything else, and that may actually have been worse for a boy.

18. Kage, unless the 16 year old bought the bed with her own money, pays part of the rent/mortage and/or utilies and taxes, and buys her own food, her bed is not her own, it is her grandmother’s. If the grandmother does not want her 16 year old granddaughter having sex in the grandmother’s house it is disrespectful for the granddaughter to be doing so.

    As to were they should have sex if they can’t have it in the girl’s bed, the grandmother does not think they should be having sex at all. Since the grandmother has the right to make the rules in her own house it is for the granddaughter to figure out where else she should have sex. If she is old enough to have sex she is old enough to take responsibility for where and when it takes place.

    This does not mean that I think it was OK for the grandmother to beat the shit out of her grandmother, that is child abuse and assault and she should be punished to the full extent of the law.

19. Carol H:
    Despite the fact that the 16 year old is legally required to work a full-time job in educating themselves, that 16 year old is still a person with rights (including the right of intimate association). Having a legal obligation to support a minor doesn’t give the despotic dominion to control that minor in all circumstances; children aren’t property.

    People like Biddel can do the things they do with a feeling of righteousness because they are following our cultural narrative that children are the chattel of their parents, and that any restriction they can think of is justified because “it’s my roof” or “I brought you into this world” or “I’ve been supporting you for X years.”

20. @Carol h: I couldn’t agree with you more on the issue of it being “her” house. That’s exactly what I was going to say.

    It’s not disrespectful because sex is dirty or wrong, it’s disrespectful because parents–the ones paying the bills and raising you–have a right to set the boundaries for what goes on in their household. This in no way justifies beating the granddaughter, nor does it justify the grandmother’s homophobia. However, I don’t think it’s terribly atypical that a parent would be upset at catching their 16 yr old having sex in the house.

    Renee, your blanket statements about corporal punishment also bother me. I was spanked on occasion as a child, as were all my cousins. We always knew exactly why we were getting spanked, and I don’t think our fear at “getting in trouble” was unhealthy. Of course, I’m not talking about anything that would leave a bruise or a mark. I think there is a distinction between that and what happened here. I’m not sure if I’ll spank my children or not, but I don’t want the government making that decision for me.

21. Kage, unless the 16 year old bought the bed with her own money, pays part of the rent/mortage and/or utilies and taxes, and buys her own food, her bed is not her own, it is her grandmother’s.

    I am sorry, but that’s a sick attitude in my opinion. When you raise a kid, no matter if it is your own, then you provide them with the things they need, including a bed to sleep in. You don’t just lent it to them, but actually give them it, with all what that includes.

    If the grandmother does not want her 16 year old granddaughter having sex in the grandmother’s house it is disrespectful for the granddaughter to be doing so.

    Yes. And so what? Teenagers are all disrespectful in the sense that they break rules. Rules are borders, but borders are to be crossed when you are a teenager. Frankly, I think it’s unhealthy if a kid never tries to push the borders, to see how far he or she can go.

    Of course, pushing the borders will have consequences. Though the kind mentioned here should never ever be one of them.

22. Of course, I’m not talking about anything that would leave a bruise or a mark. I think there is a distinction between that and what happened here. I’m not sure if I’ll spank my children or not, but I don’t want the government making that decision for me.

    When do you then want the government to make the decision? What I am aiming at, is the fact that what you might not find acceptable is considered quite acceptable by others (see e.g. hot saucing). The government has to step in at some point – it’s just a matter of when. Living in country where corporate punishment is illegal, even by parents, I see no problem in the government in sidestepping the entire issue of when it’s acceptable by saying “never”.

23. Anonymous Coward:
    The legal guardian DOES have a right to demand that her charge not have sex. The guardian is repsonsible for raising the girl and if those are the rules in her house, then the girl needs to follow them, period.

    The girl doesn’t deserve to be beat, but she does deserves huge disciplinary measures which may or may not include corporal punishment.

24. My parents fed us that line about “If you live in my house, you follow my rules.” But what if their rules are demonstrably stupid, and in fact harmful, as in this case? In what way would that situation have a positive influence on the emotional and moral development of your child?

    Where does that idea even come from? Being “kind of the castle” seems to imply unquestioned ownership of everything under your roof, including people. How is that a good thing?

25. Kristjan, I do not think that most parents actually give bedroom furniture to their children, at least not in my experience. Parents give their children furniture to use, but it is not the child’s to take with them if they leave, sell for money, or loan to friends. If parents are fortunate enough to have enough money to give their children furniture when they leave the house that’s great but most of the time it is still needed by the parents.

    You are speaking from privilege when you assume that giving a child a bed to sleep in is the same thing as actually giving the child ownership of a bed. Many parents are fortunate to be able to provide beds for all of their children and could not afford for the child to actually own it.

    It is wrong for a parent to use such language as V“it’s my roof” or “I brought you into this world” or “I’ve been supporting you for X years.” however it is also wrong for a 16 year old to say “you can’t tell me what to do”, “I don’t have to follow your rules” or “You can’t make me.” Guess what, when you are a minor living in my house you do indeed have to follow my rules and I can tell you what to do.

    I come back to the point that a 16 year old who wants to have sex should be responsible enough not to flaunt the rule of her grandmother by having sex in her grandmother’s home. I brought my children up in a very relaxed manner in terms of their sexuality. My son knew what ovaries where when he was in first grade, my daughter knew about sperm at the same age. I learned that my son was sexually active when he called me and asked me what he and his girlfriend should do because the condom broke and I gave them good advice without lectures or judgement.

    However, my children knew that I did not want them having sex in my home until they were in college and certainly knew better than to bring a partner home to their beds when they were in high school. I probably would not have punished them if they did but I would have felt disrespected.

26. You are speaking from privilege when you assume that giving a child a bed to sleep in is the same thing as actually giving the child ownership of a bed. Many parents are fortunate to be able to provide beds for all of their children and could not afford for the child to actually own it

    I didn’t think it was necessary to be explicit in stating that the ownership of the bed was only transfered while the child lived in the house. I did think about making that clear, and in retro perspective, I should.

    Yes, I am aware that not all parents can afford to let children take their beds with them when the move, or in some cases, can even afford to let each child have their own bed. However, while the child sleeps in the bed, it’s the child’s bed (or half-bed), not the parents.

27. “Parents give their children furniture to use, but it is not the child’s to take with them if they leave, sell for money, or loan to friends.”

    If the kid has been using this furniture for 18 years, what use does the parent have for it? They haven’t needed that furniture for 18 years so why would they when the kid leaves? I don’t understand that. My childhood room and bed and dresser are mine. I’d expect my parents to not do anything with them without talking to me.

28. If she followed her grandmother’s rules she would hate herself. She would hate anyone who would love her. She would believe that assaulting someone whom you have a profound moral and social duty to protect (i.e., your grandchild) is a good and right thing.

    The whole idea that ownership of property means ownership of human agency is not something I embrace.

29. I don’t know about anyone else, but when someone is staying at my house, they can basically do whatever they want. They’re a guest, after all. I always give my bed to friends or family if they spend the night, and I take the couch. They’re welcome to use my stuff and eat my food. Unless there’s an explicit rule about not having sex in a guest’s house, then it’s not disrespectful to do it. But since they lived together, there shouldn’t be any rule about not having sex in the first place. First of all, it’s not practical. Secondly, you have to make a home for your child, meaning the kid has to be comfortable there. It shouldn’t feel like a prison.

    And hitting a child is just plain wrong. It really does not teach the kid a lesson at all. “I have to follow the rules of the house or else I get hit” is not a lesson. “I have to follow the rules of the house because my grandmother willingly takes care of me and following the rules is a shows respect” is a lesson that’s taught through communication.

30. “If the kid has been using this furniture for 18 years, what use does the parent have for it? They haven’t needed that furniture for 18 years so why would they when the kid leaves? I don’t understand that. My childhood room and bed and dresser are mine. I’d expect my parents to not do anything with them without talking to me.”

    A parent may need the furniture for a younger sibling, whose furniture is worn out or not as nice. Maybe they want the furniture for guests, including the child when s/he comes home to visit. Maybe they, like many older couplies, no longer want to sleep in the same room and want the bed for one of the parents. There are many, many things parents may want to do with a bed after the child leaves.

    The fact that your parents gave you your bedroom furniture is nice but not all families work that way.

31. I was not going to respond to this post, but now I need to if only for myself.

    Yes, parents provide a bed for a child until he/she is an adult. It should also be a bed that is in a safe, stable environment.
    From the description of what happened here, I would bet a kidney that this girl has been abused many times by this grandmother. This girl has been in an environment where at least verbal abuse has occurred in the past and has now escalated to this point.

    My mother never missed an opportunity to remind me of what a burden I was…especially us girls and especially me. The abuse was psychological and escalated to a point where she beat the crap out of my sister for having sex (not at our house) with a married man …sis was 18 and supporting herself and helping us at home where my brother’s knocked up girlfriend lived with us…I was nine at the time. By the time I was 16 I was beaten for everything from changing the channel on the TV to skipping phys ed because my period was too heavy to do the activity…oh, and feminine hygiene products were expensive.
    My brothers…I could take DAYS to tell you the shit they pulled and how my surviving parent (dad) just adores their asses.

    My mom died four years ago…I diapered her ass the last two months of her life. She set me up for two abusive marriages. I wish I could have had the strength to tell her that like I have now after much talking with my sister and friends.
    Anyway, ThickRedGlasses, you’re right on target.

32. When do you then want the government to make the decision? What I am aiming at, is the fact that what you might not find acceptable is considered quite acceptable by others (see e.g. hot saucing). The government has to step in at some point – it’s just a matter of when. Living in country where corporate punishment is illegal, even by parents, I see no problem in the government in sidestepping the entire issue of when it’s acceptable by saying “never”.

    Just because there is a degree of subjectivity in determining whether or not something constitutes abuse doesn’t mean that outright banning it is the best solution. I like that the government leaves parents a degree of autonomy when it comes to raising their kids, while leaving the door open to file charges if a child is being abused. If a child is showing physical or emotional signs of abuse, then the government should step in. I think it is problematic in a number of ways for the government to move beyond that.

    My parents fed us that line about “If you live in my house, you follow my rules.” But what if their rules are demonstrably stupid, and in fact harmful, as in this case? In what way would that situation have a positive influence on the emotional and moral development of your child?

    Again, as long as the parents are not abusing the child, I see nothing wrong with “If you live in my house, you follow my rules.” For my first two years of high school, my curfew was one hour before the legal curfew. Once, I wanted to go to a movie that would’ve let out just after my curfew and she said no. The rule probably was “demonstrably stupid,” there was really no good reason for it, and I argued with her and sulked after. However, in my community, it was really, really important to respect your parents, and I’m very glad I was taught that. When I got to college, there was such a sense of entitlement and privilege. It’s important to think critically and stand up for yourself, but a little bit of respect and humility can go a long way.

33. Wow, grandma is batshit insane. I feel for those girls, talk about traumatic experience with sex! I hope they get the therapy they need to get past it and find a healthy emotional/mental place, sex wise.

34. i FIND IT unbelievable tha people on this site think it’s OK for 16 year olds to hae sex and that they have the right to do it….ya’ll are not reasonable people. Sex outside of marriage is a problem, not a right. We have broken homes, sexually active kids, etc because of the mentality on this site….that sex is a right now matter how, when or where…there appears to be no reasoning with people who accept that mentality….mostly it’s aabout authority and how ya’ll don’t want any, period….you answer to yourselves and youare headed down the wrong path anytime that mentality takes place.

35. Come off it Diane. I can see how there could be serious problems if she was sleeping with a guy – like pregnancy, babies, STDs, and so on. But lesbianism is completely harmless. What’s actually going to happen that’s so terrible? Absolutely nothing, that’s what. If I had a daughter it’d be a huge weight off my mind if she turned out to be gay.

36. …and I’m officially tired of Diane, too. Diane, take your retro child-abusing anti-choice bullshit elsewhere. Bye bye!

37. OK, I find the attitudes towards sex on this comment thread very weird. When I was 16 I was having sex with my 18yo boyfriend (age of consent is 16 in NZ), in my house and his house. My parents knew, his parents knew. I had a wonderful introduction to sex, not having penetrative sex until I was on the pill and we had condoms, and not for months after we first starting learning each other’s bodies. Sex was never something shameful or to be hidden in my parent’s houses (also yeah, I did own the bed my parents bought me… I took it when I left home, gave it back when I upgraded and mum had more kids. Seems about right to me).

    I had a Canadian boyfriend when I was 18 and he commented to me on how weird it was to wave goodbye to my mother in the morning rather than sneaking around. Making rules about when or where your kids can have sex won’t stop them, it’ll just mean you have no idea what’s going on in your kid’s life when they get to that age.

38. J Make not mistake about it hitting a child for any reason is WRONG. If I have a disagreement with you, is it okay for me to take a belt to you? No I thought not, then it would be assault. The same applies to a child. Just because they are children does not mean they do not have the right to be free of violence. I make no apologies for this statement either. Hitting a child as a form of discipline shows a lack of imagination and a willingness to cause unnecessary pain.

39. *applauds banning of Diane, while doing happy dance*

40. Pingback: Links for June 29, 2008 « Doing Feminism

41. One, corporal punishment has no place in the life of a child. It does not teach them to respect you, or that their actions were wrong, it inspires hatred and leads to feelings of depression and low self esteem.

    I need to ask…….is corporal punishment (ie. caning) illegal in American schools? And since when?

    I disagree with the statement that corporal punishment inspires hatred and leads to feelings of depression and low self esteem….Perhaps it is because there is a different in how Eastern and Western cultures see corporal punishment, but both my teachers and my parents used corporal punishment on me (one of the teachers shot a rubber band up my nose, which I have to say, is rather painful)….and, I don’t hate them, nor do I feel depressed or have low self-esteem issues (the opposite really!).

    My parents stopped caning me as soon as they realized I could outrun them. hehe. I ran my dad around in circles as he chased after me until he got tired and stopped. Eventually, you manage to catch the cane and deflect it (martial arts improved my hand to eye coordination…)

    I love my parents and teachers, and am a pretty cheerful person despite facing adversity. So hmmmm, I guess corporate punishment and its effect on my feelings and emotional growth does not follow the trend that you mention. I wonder why.

42. Timothy–it’s illegal in some states, but not others. But while it may be legal sometimes, I doubt that many schools practice it at all due to the obvious legal factors that could arise. But of course, I could be wrong …

    (And if you want to find a list of where it’s legal and illegal, you can google it up. But really, just guess. Arkansas? Yup, legal. Texas? Legal. Illinois? Illegal. And so on. The only state I was surprised by was Pennsylvania, and even PA’s pretty countryside for an east coast state, so it wasn’t TOO surprising.)

43. I too applaud the banning of Diane … though personally I would have done it after her first comment, speaking about how “acting” on same-sex attraction is somehow wrong according to her “belief system”.

    I’m sorry (well, actually, I’m not sorry), but that’s not a belief system; that’s hate. Dressing up hatred and intolerance in the language of “belief” is bull, and we should stop tolerating language like that, as though somehow people get a free-pass on hatred and bigotry like that merely because it’s dressed up in religiosity. Because that happens WAY to frequently on our culture. Bigotry is bigotry, regardless of where it comes from.

    It is of no surprise to me that Diane is advocating bigotry against gays and lesbians, AND is anti-choice, AND is pro-corporal punishment. Speaks precisely to the hypocritical and violent roots of her ilk. Not to mention that the bigotry she expresses towards us queers is DIRECTLY linked to the hate-crime that this grandmother violently visited onto her granddaughter.

44. So hmmmm, I guess corporate punishment and its effect on my feelings and emotional growth does not follow the trend that you mention. I wonder why.

    Good for you. Your experience doesn’t negate Renee’s. However, this is interesting http://www.umich.edu/news/index.html?Releases/2004/Sep04/r090804

45. Good for you. Your experience doesn’t negate Renee’s. However, this is interesting http://www.umich.edu/news/index.html?Releases/2004/Sep04/r090804

    You could also phrase it as Renee’s experience doesn’t negate mine. Nothing is absolute, everything is a two-sided coin. But thanks for the patronizing “good for you.”

    I did allow for cultural differences, as mentioned in my previous posts. Just like how women are often treated based upon medical research that had been done not on women themselves, but men, so too does a study where the sample is from an American sample then might be used to support a global statement….it does not necessarily reflect the world-wide effects of corporal punishment.

    While this is indeed an American blog, and I am sure the majority of the posters here are American, and heck, even the global media is slanted towards America (because, yeah, as the Number one country in the world, everyone needs to know some stuff about America), it would be nice if blanket statements such as what Renee made might actually not be the case in different parts of the world.

    We all benefit by looking at things differently and realizing that other countries and cultures might be affected differently by things.

    What this woman did was atrocious. It is certainly not comparable to caning for disciplinarian reasons.

46. Let’s be honest here. This wasn’t about “disrespect”. It was about this woman’s obviously visceral hatred of who her granddaughter is.

    And as far as respect goes, previous posters are spot on about being honest and understanding with their children about sex. My wife and I didn’t feel disrespected when our daughter became sexually active. She was honest. She was prepared. She was as safe as realistically possible regarding both STDs and the possibility of pregnancy. That’s respect in my book. If you instill the idea in your kids that having sex of any kind under your roof is “disrespectful”, you might as well beg them to sneak around, lie and never ask you anything about sex or want to talk to you about it in a fashion that might give them useful or even lifesaving information about it.

47. I’m laughing my ass off reading these comments by people who are clutching their pearls at the thought of a teenager having sex in her guardian’s house. How is it disrespectful to have sex in your own bedroom? Yes, technically the room belongs to the grandmother, but it’s the girl who uses it. That is the private space alloted to her by her guardian.

    I don’t know anyone who didn’t try to get some booty in their parents’ house growing up if they had the chance. That isn’t abnormal behavior for an adolescent. It’s not evil, it’s sex. Being sexually active alone does not lead to STDs or “broken homes” or whatever else.

    I understand that some parents have rules regarding sex. Such as, “No sex under my roof.” That’s all fine and dandy, but sometimes kids break rules. I didn’t have sex in my mother’s house, but I ate in my room, left clothes on the floor, didn’t always scrub my dishes well enough before loading the dish washer, and committed other very serious offenses. Breaking rules does not merit a beating, nor is it always indicative of a serious behavior problem. It’s something everyone does. The most we can do and expect from others (including kids) is to try to follow the rules and get along.

    Also: Diane? Is totally playing herself if she honestly thinks she can address a child having homosexual urges with anything other than tolerance and end up with a happy kid.

48. Red Wagon: The whole idea that ownership of property means ownership of human agency is not something I embrace.

    Agreed. I’m a little stunned at the number of people here who appear to approve of the idea that a parent or guardian should have control over what a 16-year-old can and can’t do with her body.

    Furthermore, plenty of parents have rules, explicit or implicit, against their teens having sex. Plenty of the teens in question break those rules (especially if we’re counting oral sex as sex). Isn’t that sort of the standard teenage narrative? I can’t help but wonder, of the people who are subtly blaming the victim here by saying or implying that if the girl had been following her grandmother’s house rules this wouldn’t have happened, how many broke such rules themselves when they were teenagers.

49. I’m kind of weirded out by the fact that for so many the issue is “disrespecting her grandmother’s house” which speaks a lot to the attitude that children are chattel. I wonder if folks who believe that believe, for instance, that a non wage-earning spouse also has to follow the rules of the breadwinner?

    I’m sure Diane is one of those who thinks the government should not tell her that she can’t beat the crap out of her children but then is perfectly happy to impose her belief system that consenting adults should not be able to have sex with one another. Like Sarah said–hate dressed up in faith.

50. I was one of the people talking about the rights of parents to set rules in their house. Here’s what I said:

    It’s not disrespectful because sex is dirty or wrong, it’s disrespectful because parents–the ones paying the bills and raising you–have a right to set the boundaries for what goes on in their household. This in no way justifies beating the granddaughter, nor does it justify the grandmother’s homophobia. However, I don’t think it’s terribly atypical that a parent would be upset at catching their 16 yr old having sex in the house.

    Maybe people are mostly arguing with Diane, but I’m really offended at Kat’s implication that I’m “clutching my pearls” (I’m a prude), or Liz’s accusation that I’m “blaming the victim.” What the grandma did here was absolutely appalling. What I was taking issue with was Renee’s idea that “It is just sex” and that parents have no business telling their children what they can and can’t do under their own roof.

    I think there is a huge cultural gap here, and all I am saying is that I–and most people I grew up with–were raised in households where there was a really clearly marked line between adults and children. We were taught to say sir and mam, to not talk back, that you respect your elders, etc. I certainly don’t feel like I was treated like “chattel” and strict did not necessarily equal sex shaming and abuse. I don’t think the difference in my beliefs in generational (I’m in my early twenties), and my parents were not politically conservative.

    Furthermore, I strongly disagreed with pretty much everything Diane was saying, but I think there was a very classist tone to the criticism leveled at her and those who are pro-corporal punishment. In this thread, Sarah referred to the “violent roots of her ilk”; EoL rather smugly stated that it is legal in “really, just guess. Arkansas”; and someone sent me a link that grimly described the “southern” practice of “hot saucing.” It sets up this dichotomy between those backwards, ignorant, bible thumping red necks–I guess that’s Diane’s “ilk”–and us progressive, tolerant, righteous people who raise our children the “right” way. I really think it is every bit as ugly and intolerant as Diane’s statements.

51. Maybe people are mostly arguing with Diane, but I’m really offended at Kat’s implication that I’m “clutching my pearls” (I’m a prude), or Liz’s accusation that I’m “blaming the victim.” What the grandma did here was absolutely appalling. What I was taking issue with was Renee’s idea that “It is just sex” and that parents have no business telling their children what they can and can’t do under their own roof.

    But… it’s… not… effective. Telling your kids “don’t have sex in my house” is exactly as effective as abstinence only sex ed. Unless the kid understands (and agrees with) your opinion about when they should start fucking, they are not going to respect your opinion. For some reason, when we get older we tend to think anybody who can’t vote yet doesn’t have a functioning brain.

52. I really think it is every bit as ugly and intolerant as Diane’s statements

    Yes, because Diane thinking having a loving relationship with someone of the same sex is inherently sinful and wrong, is precisely the same as me calling out the hate in such a position. /snark

    If me saying “ilk” in reference to anti-choice homophobes like Diane makes me classist, then call me classist. If calling out the hate and bigotry in what she says makes me ‘classist’, then call me ‘classist’. If me arguing that it’s time to stop giving religion that is merely hate a free-pass because it’s religion makes me classist, then call me classist.

    And if connecting Diane’s language directly to the hate-crime the grandmother perpetrated on her grandaughter makes me classist, then call me classist.

    The people that are like that can easily be called “ilk”

53. But… it’s… not… effective. Telling your kids “don’t have sex in my house” is exactly as effective as abstinence only sex ed. Unless the kid understands (and agrees with) your opinion about when they should start fucking, they are not going to respect your opinion. For some reason, when we get older we tend to think anybody who can’t vote yet doesn’t have a functioning brain.

    I get what you’re saying, Bani, but I never said I thought it was particularly effective. I only said that I don’t think there is anything wrong with parents setting boundaries for what occurs in their house. I felt that Renee made a blanket statement and I am just trying to speak to my experience, which was different.

    It is of no surprise to me that Diane is advocating bigotry against gays and lesbians, AND is anti-choice, AND is pro-corporal punishment. Speaks precisely to the hypocritical and violent roots of her ilk.

    Sarah, your comment went beyond merely calling out the hatred in Diane’s position. I can strongly and forcefully condemn everything about that position, without resorting to ugly caricaturing. I can do it without giving her a free pass by allowing her to hide behind her “belief system,” and even while supporting her being banned (because such “beliefs” really are just hatred and take away from this supposedly being a safe space). However, “ilk” used in this sense, derisively refers to a whole group of people, and subtly defines them in a way that isn’t just about their beliefs (thats why I highlighted EoL’s statement,”“really, just guess. Arkansas”). It is no different than saying, “I wish those dumb hicks would shut up.” Regardless of the beliefs of the person you’re leveling it against, it IS classist. When I, as a black woman, talk about creating a safe space for EVERYONE, I am thinking about my own status as a minority, but I’m also trying really hard to be cognizant of where everyone is coming from, i.e., their identity (trying to avoid the dreaded “p” word here). That certainly doesn’t mean I have to treat everyone’s viewpoint as equal, but it does mean not resorting to classist bs like this to make a point.

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55. However, “ilk” used in this sense, derisively refers to a whole group of people, and subtly defines them in a way that isn’t just about their beliefs

    You’re damn right it’s about a group … it’s about the group of people that think the same way she does. That votes the way she does, to deny me and my loved ones and my friends our rights.

    And honestly, I really don’t care.

    If this group thinks this way, has this hate as part of their “beliefs” then they are “ilk”. They are scum. They are hatemongers. Merely because they constitute a group does in no way excuse how hateful their beliefs are. It’s not classist, as these beliefs cross class lines.

    This is our lives that we are fighting for her. The right not to be killed, to not be beaten up, like the granddaughter above, to within inches of our lives, the right not to be classified as second-class citizens. These are our lives.

    And Diane, and this grandmother, and their ilk, are the ones that would deny us these things.

    I’m sorry if you have issues with this, but we are fighting for our lives here, and respecting these people is something I am never going to do.

56. I am appalled at the level of victim-blaming, justification of child abuse, homophobia, and denial of a teenager’s right to bodily autonomy that is being expressed in comments on this post.

    I’m also appalled at the level of disrespect and outright racism that commenters have exhibited towards Renee during her two weeks here.

    I don’t know what is happening to Feministe over the last few months, but it hardly feels like a feminist blog anymore.

57. Thanks for the support GallingGalla and if you are interested in reading my work regularly I can be found at womanist musings where I post daily on bodies that matter.

58. Renee 🙂 and I enjoyed reading your articles here. I’ll be adding womanist musings to my reader.

59. All these dumb attitudes about unless the girl PAYED for her bed, the person who did pay for it has a right to make sexual decisions for her, is why i ran away from home as a teenager. i had no privacy, and like any human, needed it.

    so, if you have this attitude, don’t be surprised when ur teenager leaves home before you’re ready for them too. they want to express their love and emotions the same way as adults.

60. Your children are not your children,
    They are the sons and daughters of Life’s longing for itself.
    They come through you but are not from you,
    And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

    You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
    For they have their own thoughts.
    You may house their bodies but not their souls,
    For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
    which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
    You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.
    For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

    from “The Prophet” by Kahlil Gibran (also performed by Sweet Honey in the Rock)

61. What happened in this case went far beyond corporal punishment and constitutes assault, child abuse, and a hate crime.

    I understand that some parents have rules regarding sex. Such as, “No sex under my roof.” That’s all fine and dandy, but sometimes kids break rules.

    While I agree that most parents tend to be too infantilizing about honestly discussing sex and sexual relationships, I am concerned, however, at the implication that parents should not set house rules and boundaries their adolescents should live by or that breaking rules should be regarded in such a blase manner. As a onetime adolescent, I took rule breaking seriously enough to evaluate the potential consequences and to accept those consequences in the event I was caught.

    While adolescents should not be treated as chattel by the parents, this attitude that parents need to allow adolescents free rein without setting such house rules and boundaries is a potential recipe for overentitled arrogant bratty behavior I’ve encountered among upper/upper-middle class suburban-raised White and some Asian-American classmates and co-workers whose inflated sense of entitlement and lack of consideration for others aggravated the Profs, supervisors, and other students/co-workers.

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