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Mother May I?

Who remembers the 2005 and 2006 California propositions that tried to instate parental notification rules for minors seeking abortions? You know, the ones that failed? Well, not so fast. Looks like it’s probably going to be on the ballot this year, too. Meet the man you can thank:

Jim Holman, owner of the San Diego Reader, has spent millions trying to persuade Californians to pass a law requiring parents to be notified before their underage daughter has an abortion.

After two failed ballot measure campaigns, Holman said last year that he didn’t want to try again.

But when other anti-abortion advocates, including winemaker Don Sebastiani, launched a third campaign, Holman couldn’t resist opening up his checkbook once again.

“Sebastiani was not deterred. He said, ‘We have to go back again and again,’ ” Holman said. “He led with big donations and I sort of followed.”

The result could make California political history.

The $1.8 million donated by Holman and Sebastiani so far is likely to put a parental-notification initiative before voters for the third time in four years. The measure would require a physician to notify a parent or guardian 48 hours before performing an abortion for a girl under the age of 18.

If the measure qualifies, it would be the first time since the California initiative process was established in 1914 that the state’s voters will consider the same measure so many times in a four-year period.

Planned Parenthood is arguing that Holman, while not doing anything illegal, is abusing the electoral process, and I agree. No, money alone does not get an initiative on a ballot, but if you spend $1.8 on an issue that inspires the kind of passion abortion does and don’t manage to get the just-under 700,000 signatures needed in a very large state, you’d have to be pretty damn inept. Holman is, of course, perfectly within his rights — that doesn’t mean there’s nothing unethical about it.

You might be aware that parental notification and consent laws are a pet peeve of mine. It’s incredibly insidious legislation wrapped up in a pretty package, and I’m convinced that the reason it gets so little attention, and so many people support it, is because we as a society believe that minor girls are the property of their parents and should have no rights over their own bodies. The common argument you’ll hear (and that appears in this article) is “how can a minor girl not be able to get an aspirin from the nurse’s office without parental permission, but be able to have an abortion without her parents even knowing out it?” And I can’t help but agree; why the hell are we so patronizing to teenagers that we don’t trust them to figure out for themselves whether or not they have a damn headache? It does in fact make perfect sense that in a society which supports those kinds of rules, people would think a parent deserves a say in their daughter’s pregnancy choice, innately and without question.

Laws that require parental consent are terrifying — it’s the legal sanctioning of forcing your daughter to give birth. And laws that only require notification are hardly better; regardless of whether or not it’s legal to stop your daughter from having an abortion, forced notification will almost certainly have that outcome for at least a few young women. A significant majority of states have parental notification or consent laws; 35 states have a law in effect, and 9 have a law on the books that is not in effect due to constitutional concerns (pdf). California is one of those nine states.

Here’s a look at this particular legislation:

Political analysts suggest that a presidential election will hurt the measure’s chances. Turnout is expected to be high among Democrats, who generally oppose parental-notification measures.

Supporters argue that a new feature should help the measure pass this time.

Like previous measures, this one would require notification before a minor has an abortion. Girls who face a medical emergency or obtain a waiver from a judge are exempted.

The new initiative also provides another option. Girls who say they are victims of parental abuse can tell a physician to notify another adult relative who is at least 21 years old, including a grandparent, aunt, uncle or sibling. Existing law requires health practitioners to report known or suspected child abuse to authorities.

To bypass a parent under the initiative, the girl has to accuse a parent of abusing her in the past and sign a written statement saying she fears physical, sexual or severe emotional abuse in the future. Her statement then would go to the adult relative who is being notified about the abortion.

“We’re modifying the law to respond to Californians who were concerned about abusive parents,” Short said. “It’s a progressive law for a progressive state.”

Planned Parenthood’s Hall said the new provision changes nothing.

“It’s a deceiving, phony solution,” he said.

Hall said the provision would require a girl to level an accusation against a parent under a penalty of perjury. Hall believes that this provision would intimidate the most vulnerable girls.

Clearly Short and I have very different definitions of the word “progressive.”

It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that these options suck. I thought about it when I first came across this article: when I was a teenager, who could I have had notification sent to in lieu of my parents? And I drew a total blank. If I had needed an abortion, I probably would have told my mom, but just playing devil’s advocate, what if I couldn’t? I quite honestly would have been totally screwed. The initiative is also making a fatal flaw in assuming that a teenage girl with abusive parents will have relatives who don’t protect those abusive parents — and who she would actually trust enough to send a signed statement reporting that abuse.

Of course, provisions in parental notification/consent laws that protect those in abusive situations are necessary, and so are the restrictions. It’s the same exact thing with abortion bans that provide rape exceptions: not only are they horrific from a stance in favor of women’s health and rights, they’re also utterly unenforceable. You’ve got two choices: allow the legislation to mean absolutely nothing and just let anyone who claims abuse or rape to slide through, or act in a way that is intolerably cruel towards some of the most vulnerable members of our society, despite the fact that the law is supposedly written specifically to protect them.

The truth is, without the restrictions policing the abuse/rape exceptions, women would lie, and I sure as hell don’t blame them. If you needed an abortion and your only way to get one was to say to the doctor that you were raped, without having to file a report, how many of you ladies would do it? As a survivor myself, I cringe at the thought. But I would — and any scrupulous doctor would find a subtle way of telling me to do it. I’m sure that teenage girls who are terrified to tell their parents about their pregnancy for reasons other than fearing a beating (fearing that they will try to stop the abortion, disallow her from seeing her boyfriend, yank the money that was supposed to pay for college, etc.) would lie in a heartbeat, too. You need to have something in there to prevent the women who just want their damn rights from thwarting the ridiculous and oppressive law. And as soon as you put it in, you’re punishing women who have already suffered a great deal. Some of them just won’t be able to handle the reporting process, and won’t get the abortions they need. And some of those women? It’s not at all a stretch to say that at least a few are going to end up severely hurting or killing themselves with illegal pills, bleach or wire hangers.

There’s another trait that notification/consent laws and abortion bans with rape exceptions share, and may seem obvious: they’re both designed to prevent abortions. Usually, those supporting notification/consent bills won’t say as much. It’s a hell of a lot easier to find voters who will buy into the “it’s a parent’s right to know” line than “parents have a right to force their daughters to give birth.” And yet, there’s an interesting trend lately of supporters going with the honest/scary message, and it’s happening here, too:

Hall, who once held a top post in the administration of former Gov. Gray Davis, a Democrat, said backers of this measure have a hidden agenda.

“This isn’t designed to solve a problem,” Hall said. “It’s designed to whittle away at Roe vs. Wade,” the landmark Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion.

Campaign spokeswoman Short, who has nine children and is counsel to the Legal Life Defense Foundation, acknowledges that the measure is promoted by those who favor outlawing abortion.

“Do we think abortions are bad? Yes,” she said. “That’s why we support this law. It reduces teen pregnancies and abortions.”

Further, Short said, more than 30 states have enacted parental-consent laws. Massachusetts has had a parental-consent law in place for more than 20 years without any further restrictions, she said.

Short provides no explanation for her belief that a law requiring parental notification for abortion will reduce teen pregnancies (the law will make teens more careful? um, no.), but it doesn’t take long to figure out how it might reduce teen abortions: parents will find ways to disallow them.

Personally, I’m grateful that they’re taking up this tactic, even as I’m befuddled by it. As I’ve said, I think that most of the people who support these bills — as they even have some popularity among those who consider themselves pro-choice — are just doing it because at first thought, it sounds about right. If you pay any attention to politics in this country, you know that most voters don’t do a whole lot of independent or in depth thinking, and the rule applies here.

Two years ago, I was at a family planning conference, and one of the panels was about defeating precisely this kind of legislation. A woman on the panel helped to write the ads that were a part of the campaign to reject one of these propositions. She showed us the television spot they did in 2006 for Prop. 85, and explained how it got rave reviews — and it gets mine, too. Watch it here. (Mild Trigger Warning — and sorry, I couldn’t get the video to embed.)

What I love about this video is not only the fact that it’s chilling, honest and says a lot with very little. I love it because it addresses what I think is the central reason, in most locations, that this type of legislation succeeds: People. Don’t. Fucking. Think. They often forget (and I think we’re all occasionally guilty of this) that people have lives different from their own. It just doesn’t occur to them. This commercial gets people to think for 30 seconds. And if the woman on the panel could be believed (I thought she could), polls flipped in the right direction once the ad started running.

The good news, of course, and I absolutely don’t want to downplay it, is that the proposition is expected to fail. It has failed twice already; the second time around, it lost by a bigger margin. There’s also the fact that a higher Democratic turnout is expected this year. The prospects aren’t good, and part of me (a small part, that doesn’t argue things on principle) says fine, let Holman throw his anti-choice dollars down the drain. But with all of the other scary-ass anti-abortion legislation being thrown around this year, and with so much of it actually succeeding, we’d all be lying or a little too complacent if it didn’t make us a bit uneasy.


60 thoughts on Mother May I?

  1. Well, here’s one California voter who’ll vote against it, just like I voted against the other two. I think you’re right on the money here, Cara.

    I would like abortion to be safe, legal and rare. But the choice has got to be there for women–and girls. I have to laugh at people who in one breath declare government too intrusive in people’s lives and in the next breath say abortion should be illegal. Well, maybe I shouldn’t laugh–some of them are running the country right now–and that’s not funny; it’s sad, IMHO.

  2. I’ve moved out of California, but I grew up there and my parents still live there. I am just baffled that these anti-choicers think that anyone actually wants this law in effect — the voters have, very clearly, said NO twice now. Why would the third time be any different?

    My mother, at the time of the first and second runs of this bill, was still a practicing child psychiatrist in California, and thus very possibly the first person a girl would tell about a pregnancy. As someone who would have been personally affected by these laws, she was 100% dead-set against them, which pretty much tells me all I need to know.

  3. What I always say about parental notification laws is this: A girl who decides not to tell her parents about a pregnancy is not going to tell them; if getting medical help entails notifcation, then she will not get the help. And that’s the worst possible scenario. So she must have the privacy.

    Which is just reiterating what you said, really.

    Trhouble is though, in the eyes of the anti-choice movement, that’s a feature rather than a bug; they WANT extra danger for girls (and women) that don’t toe the line.

  4. Why couldn’t he use that money for something more worthwhile and effective like comprehensive sex ed.? Because he doesn’t want teenagers to make those kinds of choices for themselves, either, I take it?

  5. I appreciate the threat these sorts of laws pose to girls with abusive family members, and I think that is a legitimate reason to oppose the legislation. However, it bugs me that that is the issue that gets all the attention in debates about parental notification.

    The reason these laws are a pet peeve of mine is because daughters have a right to keep shit from their parents. I’ve talked to some very well-meaning parents who just really would want to know if their daughter were getting an abortion and therefore they like the law. But the fact is she doesn’t HAVE to tell you anything. Not about the boy she’s seeing, the girl she has a crush on, or that she sneaked out and went to a party last night. You may have rules in your house against that behavior, and there may be consequences for lying to you, but the state doesn’t get to pass LAWS about it. The state does not have a responsibility to help you “keep her in line.” And frankly, I think parents should be insulted by such a suggestion.

    Furthermore, we don’t have notification laws for other medical procedures and treatments. Yeah, the school nurse needs permission to hand out aspirin, but the nurse at whatever HMO you take your daughter to doesn’t. Your daughter, and your son, have the right to receive medical care without your knowledge. There is nothing particular about abortion that changes that. If you advocate for parental notification laws for abortion, than I presume you also advocate for parental notification laws for ALL medical treatment. Do we really want to chip away at doctor-patient confidentiality?

  6. I phone-banked against the first two versions of this bill. When they were preparing us, they said not to even talk to the men because you would be wasting your time. Pro-choice voters are pretty evenly split genderwise, but when it comes to parental notification, fathers are the number one supporters of the laws. Mothers are dead-set against it (at least, the pro-choice mothers) because they remember what it was like for young women to tell their parents that they were pregnant.

    I made the mistake of talking to a few guys about this, and damn, the phone bank people were right.

  7. It’s so disgusting they spend so much money on this instead of helping people raise born children. I’m betting the same people paying this money are against universal health care. Better to spend millions on anti-choice campaigns than, you know, food.

  8. What irks me most is that people who are for this kind of legislation are the same kind of people who cause the problem by making teen sex and teen pregnancy shameful.

    We need to stop PUNISHING/JUDGING/ACTING AGAINST people for having sex. Once people don’t feel shameful for having sex, they won’t feel shameful about accidentally getting pregnant and… may actually be open and honest with others about the mistake! Because when you make pregnancy the biggest mistake of someone’s teen life, of course they’re not going to want to talk about it. But if it’s just another mistake that could happen like any other, then they’re going to seek out help sooner.

    Stop slut-shaming and I can almost guarantee more teens will talk openly about sex and pregnancy.

  9. The reason these laws are a pet peeve of mine is because daughters have a right to keep shit from their parents. I’ve talked to some very well-meaning parents who just really would want to know if their daughter were getting an abortion and therefore they like the law. But the fact is she doesn’t HAVE to tell you anything.

    Though I didn’t really cover it here (with the exception of my brief remarks on aspirin), I agree with you wholeheartedly, and I think that I covered both issues you raised previously in other posts I linked to here. But you’re absolutely right; even if girls were not put in physical danger by this bill, it would be wrong, just like if abortion bans didn’t put women in any physical danger, they would still be wrong. My point here was more to point out that those behind the legislation are a bunch of fucking liars, and to acknowledge the incredible deficiencies of what they’re touting as the new and improved part. But I can assure you that when I write about abortion (and some other reproductive justice issues), the ideas you mention will come up often 🙂

    Flowers, your story is really depressing but doesn’t surprise me to any huge extent either. And I agree with everyone who has mentioned that this much money is being wasted while it could be used for such good is rather sickening.

  10. Though I understand why parents would want to be notified of any medical procedure being undertaken on their under-18 children, this law is not only counterproductive, but downright infantilizing!!!

    This quote:

    And I can’t help but agree; why the hell are we so patronizing to teenagers that we don’t trust them to figure out for themselves whether or not they have a damn headache?

    underscores the larger problem of how American society has increasingly micromanaged and infantilized their adolescents to the point the perceived need for this infantilization and micromanagement becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. This, in turn, breeds unhealthy dependence in the adolescent children and in extreme cases, renders them completely unprepared for shouldering adult responsibilities once they turn 18 and start working/attend university/college/professional school. IMO, the court is out as to whether this is bug or a feature.

    It was bad enough to see this among a minority of classmates in my first-year dorm in the mid-’90s. From what I’ve seen recently on college campuses and what I’ve heard from college classmates who TA courses, this tendency to micromanage and infantilize children….especially among upper/upper-middle class parents has now extended into the university….effectively extending micromanaged infantilizing adolescence into the college years.

    So sad that we’re now a country who has such low expectations and little faith in the capabilities of our adolescents and young adults that the older generation…especially many baby boomers feel entitled to patronize and micromanage us in all areas of our lives from personal medical decisions to participation in what is supposed to be a pluralistic political process.

    Moreover, did the older generations ever think that this very lack of faith calls into serious question their own supposed competence as parents and adult role models?!!

  11. I’m convinced that the reason it gets so little attention, and so many people support it, is because we as a society believe that minor girls are the property of their parents and should have no rights over their own bodies.

    Yes, that’s basically the deal with not being an adult. The adults get to say you have to go to school, have to do your homework, have to go to bed, can’t have sex, can’t smoke, can’t do drugs, can’t go to Utah for assisted suicide etc. etc.

  12. All I can say about this article is that I can’t imagine anyone spending 1.8 million dollars to get anything on the ballot about child poverty, sexual trafficking, or domestic violence. The sad matter of fact is that I think–no, I know—that nobody gives a damn about rights and quality of life of human life once it has breeched the womb, or at least not enough to spend that kind of cash.

    Conservatives make me sick. I hope in some just afterlife they are forced to carry parasites in their bellies that distort their bodies while everyone judges them a whore, and then be forced to raise a child for 18 years and sacrifice their identity and their career in the process.

  13. I worked quite a bit on the Oregon campaign against parental notification a couple of years ago. Overall, I would agree with Flowers. But while we spoke mainly to women, I did have a few very positive responses from fathers. I also had some very negative reactions from pro-choice mothers. The common thread with these people is that they seemed to think they owned thier children (and I’m talking about fairly liberal people). The fathers did tend to be much more vehement about “protecting” thier daughters. What was so frustrating was how the people who were for parental notification talked to me like they were such better parents than those against it, and that I was such an idiot who would change her mind when (not if!) I have children.

    Does anyone know if there are major changes to the language of the measure? I’m pretty sure that the first year they tried for this they did not have an exception for rape or incest, but the second year they did thinking it would help them win.

  14. I like what you said about the ad making people stop and think, Cara — when they tried this in my bailiwick, many of us heard this:

    “Well, maybe it’s a good idea — if my daughter were pregnant, I’d want to know!”

    And surprisingly, many of my fellows reported success with approximately this response:
    “Do you think she wouldn’t tell you? Have you talked to her about it?”

    Anecdotally, many mothers seemed to auto-personalize the measure, but easily realized when challenged that their fears could be better answered with their own parenting, with one pre-emptive discussion.

  15. The truth is, without the restrictions policing the abuse/rape exceptions, women would lie, and I sure as hell don’t blame them.

    Neither do I. I would certainly do the same if I found myself with an unwanted pregnancy and these sorts of obstructive laws. What really pisses me off though, is that as usual, women can’t win. In order to be able to access essential healthcare, they would have to lie about being raped. Once the media got wind of it, the flames of the “the bitches are crying rape” fires would be well and truly fanned. We would have constant stories about how women will say anything in order to be able to “kill their baby”, even if it means implicating their partners/lovers/fuckbuddies whatever, with rape.

  16. “Do we think abortions are bad? Yes,” she said. “That’s why we support this law. It reduces teen pregnancies and abortions.”

    Because prohibition has ever so often worked. Maybe we can call for a ban on stupidity so eeverybody will become clever in a sec… *headdesk*

  17. What really pisses me off though, is that as usual, women can’t win. In order to be able to access essential healthcare, they would have to lie about being raped. Once the media got wind of it, the flames of the “the bitches are crying rape” fires would be well and truly fanned. We would have constant stories about how women will say anything in order to be able to “kill their baby”, even if it means implicating their partners/lovers/fuckbuddies whatever, with rape.

    Yup — and the thing is that the people who support these laws and the people who support the “women lie about rape” myth are the same fucking people. I’ve considered this before, actually, and I’m entirely unconvinced that it is an accident.

  18. exholt, though I don’t much enjoy the implication that my peers and I are a bunch of incompetent nincompoops, you do have a point. My university seems to think we need to be babied into adulthood, though it is actually probably an attempt to make more money.

    We have a freshman orientation program to help us “transition to college life,” we have to stay on campus for at least two years so we can adjust to living away from our parents (apparently that process takes two years), we have to purchase a meal plan so we don’t have to worry about the making of our own food. They’re even considering charging up front for laundry, so we don’t have to worry our immature little brains about quarters, of all things. It dumbfounds me, why do they feel the need to control our lives?? Oh yeah, to make money.

  19. “can’t go to Utah for assisted suicide etc. etc.”
    Oregon. Oregon allows PAS. Not Utah. Utah’s the funky mostly-Mormon state. Oregon’s the funky environmentalist-libertarian state.

    Sorry, but as an resident of this oh-so-boring state, I only have so many things to be really proud of.

  20. Agreed, Anna — and the thing stuck with me for two years, long enough for me to remember that it was for California, to have it pop into my head for this post, and for me to be able to remember enough about the ad to find it online. Since I don’t always have the world’s greatest memory, I’d say that’s pretty damn good.

  21. You know, I’m surprised that this proposal doesn’t go the extra mile and just straight up require Daddy’s Permission. After all, we all know that the fundies don’t trust adult women with deciding whether or not to have an abortion–why would we trust mothers to counsel their daughters on it?

    Besides, that would ensure that Daddies still had control over their property.

    Gah.

  22. Because prohibition has ever so often worked

    Well, prohibition is the premise of most criminal and civil statutes and laws. Otherwise (as without God), “everything is permitted.”

  23. underscores the larger problem of how American society has increasingly micromanaged and infantilized their adolescents to the point the perceived need for this infantilization and micromanagement becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.

    There was a huge controversy recently because a writer in New York allowed her nine-year-old son to ride the subway alone. Readers were literally saying she should be investigated by Child Protective Services for doing something so horrible and irresponsible.

  24. count me as another Californian who will vote against it. I remember talking to my mother about the propositions the last time they were up. She is ardently pro-choice and has certainly raised me that way, but she said the same thing a lot of parents seem to think “well I would want my child to tell me” as if that’s justification for the law. I had to talk her out of it, saying that the kind of girls who will get caught in this are the ones who probably have a good reason for not telling, not to mention, it’s a victory for the anti-choice side. She came around, but it’s interesting how parenting instinct seemed to override pro-choice sensibility at first for her….

  25. The adults get to say you have to go to school, have to do your homework, have to go to bed, can’t have sex, can’t smoke, can’t do drugs, can’t go to Utah for assisted suicide etc. etc.

    And under parental notification laws, they can’t tell you that you have to stay pregnant. Please note the difference between notification and consent.

  26. exholt, though I don’t much enjoy the implication that my peers and I are a bunch of incompetent nincompoops, you do have a point.

    I’m sorry if I gave the impression that current undergrads are a bunch of incompetent nincompoops as that is completely contrary to my opinions of most current undergrads/young adults.

    What I was trying to express, however inartfully, is that most upper/upper-middle class parents of current undergrads/young adults, especially those of the boomer generation, increasingly seem to see their children as such through policies such as parental notification laws and increasing trend of intrusive micromanagement in the adolescent and young adult years. I completely disagree with their patronizingly low expectations of their own children.

    There was a huge controversy recently because a writer in New York allowed her nine-year-old son to ride the subway alone. Readers were literally saying she should be investigated by Child Protective Services for doing something so horrible and irresponsible.

    Sigh….another manifestation of how much parents, especially those of the upper/upper-middle class boomer set are of the mindset that children should be overly sheltered and thus, infantilized rather than doing the hard work necessary to prepare them to manage things on their own.

    That is pathetic most children in my old neighborhood, including myself were frequently taking subways by ourselves as young as 6-8 years of age for school, work, or fun reasons.

    Mind you, this was in the NYC of the 1980’s when street/subway crime was far worse than it has been over the last 15 odd years. Yeesh….by the standards of these parental micromanagers, nearly every parent in my old neighborhood should then be punished for child neglect under this idiotic standard. 🙄

  27. I wouldn’t even tell my S.O. if I got pregnant and decided on an abortion (at least not till after the abortion if I was stressing). We’re taking lots of measures against it, but he’s aware that I wouldn’t tell him beforehand.
    Me telling him wouldn’t change anything except cause some sort of “but a fetus is a baby!” stress in his brain, possibly, if he’s not as good a feminist as he tries to be. Of course I’ve informed him of this and told him why, and if he has a problem we can stop the sex and he can leave me with the lease on the apt.

    It isn’t anyone else’s business! If my parents had invaded my privacy that much as a teen… ugh…

  28. I have to laugh at people who in one breath declare government too intrusive in people’s lives and in the next breath say abortion should be illegal.

    They believe in government intrusion when it comes to minorities, women, gays, non-Christians, and immigrants. They believe in no government intrusion when it comes to corporations or wealthy white men. The other group are stupid and must be led by the wisdom of the patriarchy; of course, the patriarchy does not like to be taxed and hates regulation. I believe the wet dream of every Republican is to make this huge, service class of people who have no rights and can’t complain of mistreatment, and a ruling class of elite white men.

  29. Actually, it’s by the standards of society at large, not by the horrible burb-breeders, I’m afraid. Do you really think that if a 6-8 year old was alone on a NYC subway and got hurt, that *nobody* other than a few yuppies would blame the parents?

  30. And under parental notification laws, they can’t tell you that you have to stay pregnant. Please note the difference between notification and consent.

    Cara was refering to both kinds of laws when she made her statement regarding parents having the rights over their minor daughters’ bodies. And plainly my point would apply with equal, if not greater, force to the notification laws — i.e., even if abortion could be carved out as an exception to all the things that parents control regarding their children’s bodies, their general right to control them at least gives them the right to be notified when some third party is performing the procedure with the child’s alleged consent.

  31. sign a written statement saying she fears physical, sexual or severe emotional abuse in the future.

    I can’t help but think that being forced to carry to term and give birth when you don’t want to could be a warped kind of physical/emotional abuse.

    If I’m saying something wrong and bad here, please let me know. I’m trying to learn.

  32. The new initiative also provides another option. Girls who say they are victims of parental abuse can tell a physician to notify another adult relative who is at least 21 years old, including a grandparent, aunt, uncle or sibling. Existing law requires health practitioners to report known or suspected child abuse to authorities.

    Your example already pointed out the flaws in this logic, Cara, but I wanted to add to it. It’s so presumptuous to assume that a girl has an older sibling, or that she even has relatives in the country besides her parents. It’s like first generation immigrant families don’t even exist.

  33. No, greenmouse, I think you’re totally right. Forced pregnancy is uncivilized and inhumane. Just ask the women of Romania.

    I don’t think you should be too concerned about seeming like a newbie – I’ve said some pretty dumb things in the past. I still say some pretty dumb things. We all learn and grow from our mistakes, as long as we’re willing to acknowledge them.

    And welcome. I hope you like it here as much as I do. It’s a great place to learn and let your brain grow.

  34. To think! That 1.8 million could have gone to help impoverished mothers who chose to keep their babies.

  35. OK, I’m totally with bushfire: “It’s so disgusting they spend so much money on this instead of helping people raise born children.” Shows you that the whole “pro-life” label is phony as heck.

    I grew up in a household where teenage privacy was nonexistent–including the occassional body inspection (I kid you not; I remember very much the grounding following the hickies I got in 9th grade). And yes, I have faith in the California voters (at least my former Critical Thinking students) that this measure will again be struck down.

    But looking at the infantilizing of teenagers argument here, and mythago’s comment has me wondering to what extent parental responsibility legislation is to blame for it (i.e. a parent being cited or arrested for lack of supervision). At what point, then, should parental responsibilities cease for a teen? Where do we place a clear distinction between a child and a teenager (when they turn 10? when they can possibly be tried as an adult for a crime? when they grow pubic hair?)?

  36. It’s fascinating that Raving Atheist sees nothing wrong with cutting up hookers but is oh-so-concerned about the health and welfare of teenage girls.

    Oh, wait, he’s really oh-so-concerned with parents having absolute power over their teenage girls, and to hell with what the girls want or what’s in their best interests. Not such a contradiction after all.

  37. Actually, it’s by the standards of society at large, not by the horrible burb-breeders, I’m afraid. Do you really think that if a 6-8 year old was alone on a NYC subway and got hurt, that *nobody* other than a few yuppies would blame the parents?

    Oh, it’s definitely a society-wide problem. We’re at the point that if your kid breaks his/her arm climbing a tree, your neighbors will essentially accuse you of child abuse. We have this weird notion that parents can protect their kids from all hazards at all times, and if they fail for even a nanosecond, they’re terrible, terrible parents who should have their kids taken away.

  38. jj: THANK YOU for helping with that! i helped, too, and i was honestly surprised we managed to defeat it.

    jeffrey, i hope oregon continues to be boring if we get to keep PAS and don’t require parental notification. now if only we could reverse the stupid “marriage is for one man and one woman” legislation…

    And under parental notification laws, they can’t tell you that you have to stay pregnant. Please note the difference between notification and consent.

    notification often leads to consent, i suspect.

  39. As a woman who had to undergo a big legal mess, so I could have an abortion w/out my mother’s consent, who would never wish that situation on an enemy, and now I am the mother of a daughter, myself, this is how I feel about parental consent/notification laws:

    If your daughter is afraid to tell you she’s pregnant, and is afraid you won’t support her choices, you don’t deserve to know.”

    Yes, if my daughter were pregnant, I hope she would tell me, and that I could advise her on her decision. But, if she feels she can’t tell me, and that she can’t trust my advice, it means that I have failed as a parent, not that she has failed as a daughter.

  40. Yeah, they were pretty out there with the signature gathering on this one. I kept asking them why they were bringing it back and didn’t get much of a definite answer.

  41. Actually, it’s by the standards of society at large, not by the horrible burb-breeders, I’m afraid. Do you really think that if a 6-8 year old was alone on a NYC subway and got hurt, that *nobody* other than a few yuppies would blame the parents?

    In my old NYC neighborhood during the ’80s, if 6-8 year old kids got hurt, the attitude would be sorrow for the kids who got hurt and the parents and anger where it truly belongs, on those actually responsible for the kids being hurt.

    Moreover, beatings of young kids by gangs of older youths and muggings were common enough that everyone in my old neighborhood regarded it as an unfortunate part of everyday life…especially with the neglect of the city administration to provide needed public services and security at adequate levels during this period to many poor/working class neighborhoods.

    The neighbors in my old neighborhood had the commonsense understanding that “shit happens” and that parents cannot possibly be with/protect their children 24/7/365 so children need to be taught from an early age to learn how to deal with matters more independently as they grow up. A mentality I see increasingly absent in our society, especially among upper/upper-middle class boomer aged parents who believe it is their duty to not only overprotect, micromanage, and infantilize even adolescent children….but also feel entitled to be insufferable busybodies in demanding compliance with their parenting methods or risk social and possible legal sanctions as shown in Lenore Skenazy’s experience.

    How are children supposed to learn how to develop into responsible independent adults if their parents won’t given them the opportunity to learn how through being given increasing “adult” responsibility and independence?

    At what point, then, should parental responsibilities cease for a teen?

    In addition to information from scientific studies on human development, this question really depends on how society views their adolescents along with how they teach and influence their perceptions of what constitutes the beginning of adulthood.

    Though I will say 18 because it is the age set by US law, other societies may have differing ages for becoming an adult. For instance, 20 is the age of adulthood in Japan.

  42. their general right to control them at least gives them the right to be notified when some third party is performing the procedure with the child’s alleged consent.

    What’s the point of notification without consent? “Your daughter is having an abortion, and legally there’s not a goddamn thing you can do about it”? Wow, that’s very empowering to me as a parent. You’re probably also aware that notification laws have to have a bypass provision, which means that parents would not, in fact, have the right to know. So it doesn’t actually give parents the right to know if their daughter has an abortion, much less the right to affect the outcome.

    One of the last times the CA crowd tried this initiative, they tried to sneak in language about life starting at conception, then lied about it.

    The real point of these bills is to prevent abortion. After all, if a scared teenage girl has to tell her parents, maybe she’ll put off telling them until it’s too late to abort.

    *though, presumably under your standards, “the adults” could force their daughter to HAVE an abortion, just like they can force her to go to school, correct?

  43. Bloody hell. I can understand the “but I’d want to know if it was my daughter, just so I can support her” impulse, but how long does it take to realize that;
    a) legally requiring notification of “only parents who aren’t going to be dicks about it” is completely impossible
    and
    b) its no different to being told about anything else in your child’s life. If you want to know, they have to be willing to tell you.

  44. At what point, then, should parental responsibilities cease for a teen?

    Though I will say 18 because it is the age set by US law, other societies may have differing ages for becoming an adult. For instance, 20 is the age of adulthood in Japan.

    I think it also depends on the person. I wanted to be out of my mom’s house and on my own at the age of 16, I believe. My almost 22 y.o. brother, on the other hand, probably couldn’t handle living on his own even if he wanted to.

  45. I seem to remember seeing stats somewhere on how many pregnant teenagers told a trusted adult (or parent?) during a previous parental notification controversy. It wasn’t hard to imagine the very small percentage that didn’t had a damn good reason.

  46. I think it also depends on the person. I wanted to be out of my mom’s house and on my own at the age of 16, I believe. My almost 22 y.o. brother, on the other hand, probably couldn’t handle living on his own even if he wanted to.

    I agree. Unfortunately, rules tend to be made based on the perceived averages rather than tailored to each individual case.

    Parental responsibility laws should be made more flexible for adolescents who demonstrate above average maturity for their age….and that our society should encourage parents to provide more independence and responsibility as children age according to their maturity so that by the time they are 18, they are ready to handle their adult responsibilities instead of being continually micromanaged and infantilized into the young adult years in post-secondary education and the professional workplace. From what I’ve seen and heard, the results of this micromanagement and infantilization is not good for the individual adolescent(s) and the people who must deal with their overbearing parents.

    They really need to stop introducing infantilizing parental notification laws lest they want to send the implicit message that all Americans under a certain advanced age are fragile helpless babies who are completely incapable of taking care of themselves. What a vote of no confidence in our nation’s adolescents and young adults. 🙄

  47. It’s fascinating that Raving Atheist sees nothing wrong with cutting up hookers . . .

    I never expressed approval of the tee shirt. My criticism was limited to the misidentification of the shirt’s creator and the misattribution of e-mails, issues which, ultimately, were responsibly addressed.

    but is oh-so-concerned about the health and welfare of teenage girls.

    Yes, the CPC I volunteer at does assist teenagers being coerced into abortion by their boyfriends and families..

    Oh, wait, he’s really oh-so-concerned with parents having absolute power over their teenage girls

    Other than the “absolute” part, you have accurately described my concern. The power is shared with other adults responsible for the child’s upbringing, such as teachers.

    and to hell with what the girls want or what’s in their best interests.

    As conceded by your use of the disjunctive “or”, their wants and interests do not necessarily coincide.

  48. Wait wait wait wait wait. Do you actually volunteer at a CPC or is that some kind of weird joke? I mean, I guess that I shouldn’t be hugely surprised as you’re making a children as property argument, and more or less indicating that sometimes it is a child’s best interest to be forced into giving birth . . . but oh my fucking god.

  49. Wait wait wait wait wait. Do you actually volunteer at a CPC or is that some kind of weird joke?

    FYI: Raving Atheist is a long-time anti-choice commenter and occasional troll. So I don’t think he was joking — he does see women and girls as property, he does think the government should be allowed to force women to maintain pregnancies against their will, and he does probably volunteer at a CPC.

  50. Not only do I volunteer at a CPC, but I recruit unsuspecting women onlineto work at them as well, for money.

    Post-viability (absent a health reason) even Planned Parenthood and NARAL “think the government should be allowed to force women to maintain pregnancies against their will.” So they merely consider the female body to be property six months later than I.

    Anti-choice commenter AND occasional troll? I thought anti-choice commenting WAS trolling.

  51. If the anti-choicers want to bash their heads against this wall once again, more power to ’em. Eventually they might learn that no matter how big a bankbook and/or mouth you have, you only get one vote.

  52. RA – what? And six months of being able to control my own fate and body isn’t worth fighting for? If that isn’t, what the heck is?

  53. Well, looks like I know what I’ll be doing AGAIN this october/November. (Handing out Say No on Prop 3275- AGAIN buttons).

    To all those who say, but I would want to know if my daughter had an abortion. I hear you. So would I. In fact, the majority of teen girls in California who have abortions (60 percent) tell their parents. If you add a religious figure and or trusted extended family member (aunt, grandmother, etc) that number goes up to 80 percent. The reason the remaining young girls cite for not wanting to notify their parents is fear of violent reaction. Unfortunately, not everyone has an ideal situation where they feel they can trust their parents with their decision.

    This line about who is can handle “adult responsibility”… always gets me. Like people in life have a choice about dealing with whatever situation they find themselves in at any stage of their life. I think discussing whether or not a 16 year old is “mature” enough “to deal” with having an abortion or a child is pointless. If a 16 year old is pregnant, she is going to have to deal with being pregnant; she is going to have to step in to that adult responsibility. Which is why we, as a society, should be supportive and provide the resources she needs to be able to most freely make her decision. It is first and foremost, her life, not her parents.

    And remind me again, what magical transformation occurs when you turn 18 that makes you so much more responsible then you were the day before?

    But thanks, Feminste! Now I know who to boycott. Sebastiani wine and the San Diego Reader.

  54. And six months of being able to control my own fate and body isn’t worth fighting for? If that isn’t, what the heck is?

    I think the point was that the argument against “forced childbirth” fails if you yourself support it for any reason in the last three months. There’s a significant segment of the pro-choice community that contends that abortion should be unrestricted up until birth — and who would accuse those who supported late-term restrictions as interfering with the control of the woman’s fate or body.

  55. Yes, the CPC I volunteer at does assist teenagers being coerced into abortion by their boyfriends and families..

    Why should you care if a teenager is being coerced into an abortion by her parents? You’re firmly in favor of “the adults” in a teenager’s life making her do things she doesn’t want to, like school and homework, or preventing her from things she doesn’t want to do, like smoke, correct? So what’s your beef if a girl’s parents decide that she should have an abortion even if she doesn’t want to, or that she shouldn’t have a baby even if she wants to?

    Is is just that you’re in favor of parental authority only when it’s a proxy for imposing your own authority on teenage girls?

    Or is it just that, like the anti-choicers who pretended that ‘life begins at conception” language in their parental-notification bill was legally meaningless, you’re a poor liar?

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