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Kiss my larger-than-usual ass

You may or may not be aware that the size 2 Jennifer Love Hewitt was recently the subject of some fat-shaming by lovely gossip site TMZ and others (to whom I won’t link, but if you follow the links here, you’ll see the photos and the oh-so-trenchant observations like “We know what you ate this summer, Love everything!”). Hewitt had the audacity to appear in public in a bikini while also in possession of a body that hadn’t been dieted and exercised down to nothing or airbrushed to smooth perfection.

Mind you, TMZ has no compunction about running unflattering beach and other photos of celebrities with a heaping helping of mockery; it seems to be popular enough that one of their advertisers, T Mobile, is currently running a feature called “Flabulous!” with a bunch of celebrities at the beach, not in the world’s best shape. How dare they not be picture-perfect at all times, *especially* when they turn 60!

Anyway, back to Hewitt: She decided that she wasn’t going to take this mockery lying down, and so she decided to say a few things.* Things which made me fall in love with her a little bit (even though I’ve only ever seen her in Party of Five, in which she annoyed me):

“I’ve sat by in silence for a long time now about the way women’s bodies are constantly scrutinized,” the 28-year-old actress writes on her Web site.

“To set the record straight, I’m not upset for me, but for all the girls out there that are struggling with their body image.” …

“A size 2 is not fat! Nor will it ever be,” Hewitt responded in a post Thursday. “And being a size 0 doesn’t make you beautiful.”

“What I should be doing is celebrating some of the best days of my life and my engagement to the man of my dreams, instead of having to deal with photographers taking invasive pictures from bad angles,” says the star of TV’s “Ghost Whisperer” and the film “I Know What You Did Last Summer.”

“To all girls with butts, boobs, hips and a waist,” she wrote, “put on a bikini put it on and stay strong.”

I’d probably fall in love a little more if she weren’t so defensive about being seen as fat, but hey. I’m pretty pleased that she’s responded with a bit of a fuck-you to the people who are following her around with a camera and then feel entitled to nitpick her body just because she’s a woman. I’m glad she tied in her treatment to the way that *women in general* are publicly scrutinized, not just the way that *celebrities* are publicly scrutinized. I’m glad she recognizes that the difference between the way that her body is held up for scrutiny and the way that other women’s bodies are held up for scrutiny is simply the presence of papparrazi in her life. IOW, she realizes that all women are public property, and the difference between the way she’s treated as a celebrity and the way she’s treated as a woman is one of degree, not kind.

And I’m *very* pleased that she recognizes that fat-shaming is designed to keep women in line — and not just the woman who’s the target of the shaming. It sends a message to other women that unless they conform, they’re next. And so, unless they’re very secure, they spend a lot of time and energy worrying about how they’re going to avoid being next (which they can never do, because that’s the whole point of shaming, to take up your time and energy on an endless quest to meet a moving target). Time and energy that they then don’t have to devote to anything else, like maybe learning how to love and accept their bodies as they are.

If you’re wondering about the title to this post, it comes from here:

The newly engaged Hewitt was snapped in her black two-piece swimsuit last week as she enjoyed a dip in the sea — but the “Ghost Whisperer” star’s larger-than-usual bottom soon became the subject of ridicule on many celebrity blogs.

“Larger than usual”? Usual for her, or usual in general? What’s the “usual” size of an ass?

Thanks to Julia for the head’s-up.

__________
* It’d be nice if I could get her site to load so I can see her whole post.


184 thoughts on Kiss my larger-than-usual ass

  1. i very much agree w/ this post, but if you look at the photos, theres no way shes a 2. its disheartening that she feels she cant say her real size, which is probably like an 8 or something. like theres anything wrong w/ that size. i hate celebrities that talk good on non accepted body sizes but then say “oh but im actually much thinner”

  2. Elektrodot, Hewitt is 5’2. I’m bigger than she is and also five inches taller, and I’m a size six, so I can definitely buy that she is a size 2.

  3. After spending half an hour to figure out which sizes 2 and zero are actually in European sizes I give up. It’s totally confusing with UK and US sizes, vanity sizes to please customers and trying to convert that into something like 34 only to discover that they meant french sizes which differ again from german and italian ones. What evidence is a size then?

    Also I always wonder whether the male writers in those magazines have ever seen a real woman? Without lots of make-up, fake tan and hair extensions? And why do the female writers feel like bashing women that look exactly like them?

  4. SoE, Size 2 US is Size 6 UK – basically you add on 4. So Size 0 is Size 4, a size I didn’t even know existed until a couple of years ago. Basically, whatever height Jennifer Love-Hewitt is, Size 2 is titchy. Like, teeny tiny.

  5. JLH became Ms. Fantasy Girl because she had “achieved” perfect breasts all by the non-standard “grow ’em yourself” method. God forbid a curvy girl….have a curve or two. There’s maybe one or two examples in the non-plastic world of a woman blessed with unbelievable curves but also still manages to have a flat, cellulite-free ass. Maybe two. What has happened is that having a female body is in itself considered unattractive now.

    What’s sad is all the men who rush to defend the shaming of anyone who has a female body are getting off on the power, but don’t realize how they’re hurting themselves. They’re straight but find women unattractive. They’ve narrowed down the number of human beings who can turn them on to exactly zero.

  6. Women who look *exactly* like her were the objects de drool in all the 60s Bond movies. Like exactly. Back then they didn’t have a bunch of tricks to cover up cellulite—and so there it was and it was no big deal.

  7. Hey, the gossip people didn’t make her star in both Garfield movies.

    Follow up Amanda’s #8, there was some tipping point in movies when beanpole depictions outweighed Ursula Andress/Raquel Welch depictions: I guess the movement starred with models Twiggy and Veruschka in the mid-60s, but I can’t say that it became a cinematically viable look until the 90s.

  8. If I can be a size 4, JLH can be a size 2. When I got my prednisone butt, I still only wore a 6. And I’m about JLH’s height (1 inch taller), so I look “fat” too. I know I’m not, but it’s a proportion game, and anything remotely hourglassy on a petite frame looks “larger than usual.” I have quite an hourglass figure at any weight (it’s my bone shape, not a fat/thin inssue) and it just … makes my ass look huge relative to my body even if I’m 100 pounds.

    Oh well. Not much to do about the shape of my bones.

    Good on her for speaking out. I know people get obsessed with celebs having flaws, and it may make us “regular” people feel better about ourselves, but in the end it hurts us all.

  9. The original “thin female” movement was actually in the 20’s with the flappers (short hair and more masculine/less curvy bodies) who were celebrating androgeny and rebellion against the matriarchal beauty standard with styles and beauty standards that could only be carried out in urban areas. My understanding is that the curvy woman (not the one we see today, who must have breasts and hips and an hourglass figure, but no cellulite or stretch mark) carried on well into the 70’s. In 70’s porn, the “tit queen” is not uncommon: women we would never see as sex symbols today, with breasts, butts, and hips, but also bellys, thighs, and cellulite.

  10. I know I’m not, but it’s a proportion game, and anything remotely hourglassy on a petite frame looks “larger than usual”

    Amen to that! My BMI is on the “higher” end of “normal” (fuck BMI, I know), b/c I’m 5’3″ and curvy, with a bone structure that absolutely does not allow me to weigh below 120 without looking sickly. But I wear between a size 4 and a size 8, depending on where I shop, and if TMZ had a pic of *my* ass in my bikini? They’d probably paste up as a defense for anorexia or something similarly disgusting.

    Go JLH for her response. And as for her ‘defensive’ tone…I agree that she shouldn’t have to sound/feel that way, but of course she does. We’re all taught to be so afraid of “fat” that even the hint that we might be “fat” makes us go on the defensive. It’s not right, but it is hard to avoid.

  11. Also, I was a size 2-4 until I was 17 and started birth control. I remember being a size 4 and trying on dresses at a store for a dance of some kind, and it being the first time hearing my mother tell me I was too fat to wear things. I look back on the body I had then (the American ideal really, a size 4 instead of a 2 only because I had grown D cup breasts and my hips started to spread) and wonder who in their right mind would have been calling me fat. And yet I was called fat. A lot. By members of my family, by people at school, and when I developed low-self-esteem about my weight, I was told by boyfriends that I was simply whiny.

  12. Go JLH for her response. And as for her ‘defensive’ tone…I agree that she shouldn’t have to sound/feel that way, but of course she does. We’re all taught to be so afraid of “fat” that even the hint that we might be “fat” makes us go on the defensive. It’s not right, but it is hard to avoid.

    Yeah, that’s why I can’t get too down on her for it. Plus, she works in Hollywood, so this kind of thing can affect her career.

    Of course, just like with the Britney-at-the-VMAs thing, all those guys who are snickering about what a cow she is would jump at the chance to sleep with someone who looked just like her if it were offered to them.

  13. No matter how often people praise the “curvy” woman, the only acceptable curves are the curves of women’s breasts. God forbid your curves are in the “wrong” places.
    It makes me sick to know that a lot of these gossip sites are run by men. Men who will scrutinize, insult and mock women’s bodies and in the next breath criticize women for being “catty” to each other. Do these men expect to get married? And stay married? Not that marriage is the ultimate life goal, but you’d think that at least some of them plan to do it eventually. But not many old ladies have the bodies of JLH circa 2000. So how will their marriages last? How will they be able to sustain healthy sex lives with their gross, fleshy, size 6 (or 12, or 14…) wives?

  14. Oh well. Not much to do about the shape of my bones.

    SERIOUSLY. Like, if I starved myself, I might be able to get down to a 4 (still considered “hollywood fat”). No way I’d ever fit into a size 0 unless I got my pelvis broken in half.

  15. JLH is like the same size as my right leg, these gossip mags are ridiculous. I’m glad that she stood up for herself without whining about how HARD it is to be a CELEBRITY with all this MONEY. I respect that.

    (Also, I thought she was good in Heartbreakers.)

  16. God, I hate the way the current standard for beauty seems to be “huge tits, super-muscular body and defined abs, no cellulite, nothing that jiggles, nothing soft and fleshy (except for boobs), and a round bum (but not too big!)”. Jennifer Love Hewitt kind of annoys me, but I think she looks sexy and womanly in those pictures and I don’t give a fuck who disagrees with me.

    At 5’10, 130 pounds I’m rather thin and get teased for having small breasts and a small ass. My curvy friends get picked on for having round little tummies, thicker thighs, and breasts that are “too big”. None of us are happy with are appearances and even though on a logical level we know that “the perfect body” is unimportant and unattainable, we’re still destroyed by the fact that we will never look “right”. I hate that society makes women feel like their physical appearances are so important. I hate that it makes young women hate themselves.

  17. The bit that made my stomach really turn is that under her “Like all women out there should, I love my body.” quote tmz says “if you say so.” wtf? She’s not perfect enough to escape your ridicule (as if anyone is) so how dare she say she loves herself?!

    i have a lot more i could add, but i think it’d turn into an angry rant faster than tmz could call someone fat. also i might throw up.

  18. I’m 5’2″ and weigh 106 pounds – I wear a US size four. And I’ve still heard from some people that I could “stand to lose a few pounds” and that it’s too bad middle age “made you fat.” I’m 49.

    And while I’m totally aware how ridiculous all of that is…still when I look in the mirror I do not see thin. I see all the flaws. Wer’re so conditioned to see only that and it seems every year it gets worse and worse.

  19. Kat – not just young women. Trust me, it gets worse as you get older. Not only is your body not right, but now your face shows the passage of time, too.

  20. I hate that society makes women feel like their physical appearances are so important.

    Where does this come from, you think?

    Internet-speak is tough to nail down, so I’ll add that I didn’t mean that in any snarky/sarcastic way. I’ll also add that among pretty much 100% of the males I know, womens’ bodies are *hardly* the area of scrutiny they are for the women themselves…the jump into the dating pool for all of us seemed to start with “is she interesting?” then “is she fun?” then “will she tolerate me?” THEN “is she reasonably attractive?”.

    I’m curious of the demographics for fashion bigwigs, where this body image rot seems to start. Got a hunch they aren’t necessarily mine.

    Oh, and JLH’s body is fine. It’s her acting that grates.

  21. Good for her. I don’t like her in movies, either, but I think it’s inspiring that she’s standing up to this BS. I’m a size 4 and I weigh 117 pounds, that’s not fat and if I were any smaller my body probably wouldn’t even function right. I never understood this whole “You must be super skinny but you still have to have a round butt and huge breasts”…that doesn’t normally happen!!! Besides, if you’re going to talk about “normal” American women, you can’t go by the size 2 standard…because I think the “norm” now is size 12. Ugh this makes me mad.

  22. I’m curious of the demographics for fashion bigwigs, where this body image rot seems to start. Got a hunch they aren’t necessarily mine.

    Oh, here’s DN with the “this is all the fault of gay men in the fashion industry” canard.

    Sorry, doesn’t wash. This is about her body, not about the way her body fits into clothing. And men feel perfectly free to comment in minute detail about the perceived imperfections of any random woman’s body at any time. To your face, on the internet, behind your back, out car windows, you name it.

  23. In high school I was a size 9, 130 pds, 5’4, and honestly couldn’t have been much smaller due to my bone structure and genes. I was active and in shape and could dance my ass off for hours at our school dances. My mom called me fat the entire time, telling me how no boy would ever love me with my body (which is funny, cause I was never single for three years). In college I gained a lot of weight from a medical condition. Now, I would KILL to be a size 9, but I remember thinking how fat I was then. And the funny thing is? I like myself better now, now that I’m big, because somewhere along the lines I stopped caring about what other people said. I have a girlfriend (Mom was right, no boy *would* want to marry a big ol’ dike) who LOVES my body.

    I would like to get down to a size 12. I think that would be small enough so that clothes would fit little nicer, but I don’t need to be a 9 ever again. My mom is a size 7 and when I hug her I can feel all her bones, and I don’t like that. When you hug someone, it should be nice and soft. *nods*

    Done now.

  24. I don’t get it? I finally got to see the photos I don’t see the big deal. So what if Jennifer Love Hewitt has a big butt? A lot of men out there love women with big butts its better then having a flat ass. I don’t see the problem here. Jennifer should stand up and speak for herself. TMZ.COM is a weird website its also a pretty sexist website as well. I notice they seem to have an obsession with the Heroes actress eighteen year old Hayden Panettiere and the barely legal girls. It just goes to prove that Hollywood really does move in cycles. Ten years ago Jennifer Love Hewitt was one of the “it” girls of Hollywood she was everywhere. The media showered praise on her because she was so super thin and skinny. And now Jennifer is 28 and looks like an adult suddenly she is no longer in. I know TMZ.COM is a celebrity website but the enormous pressure placed on actresses in Hollywood is incredible. And then ordinary women some of them actually believe the air brushed magazine covers are real. Jennifer Love Hewitt is an attractive woman she shouldn’t feel ashamed or bad about herself. The thing I don’t like about TMZ.COM and the celebrity tabloids why don’t they go after some of those male stars? Why do they let the male actors that aren’t in shape off the hook?

  25. God, I hate the way the current standard for beauty seems to be “huge tits, super-muscular body and defined abs, no cellulite, nothing that jiggles, nothing soft and fleshy (except for boobs), and a round bum (but not too big!)”.

    As American demographics change, I think the beauty standards will change.

  26. Seriously, zuzu (#24).
    DH, are you out of your mind? The TMZ guys are… guys. On another gossip website (I Don’t Like You In That Way) men were chuckling about how viewing the pics of JLH made them lose their boners. Talk like that is ALL OVER the Internet, and it’s a constant force in women’s real lives as well. Men can be incredibly cruel about women’s bodies. I assume you’ll never have to exist in a female body, but don’t tell us men aren’t critical when we LIVE it.

  27. Let me finesse that comment to add that I think the current beauty standards are tied to race and power as much as they’re tied to anything else.

  28. I’m curious of the demographics for fashion bigwigs, where this body image rot seems to start. Got a hunch they aren’t necessarily mine.

    Oh, I wouldn’t be so sure about that. A friend of mine had a boyfriend who found it a turn-on when she was so thin that he could feel her spine sticking out, and would constantly nag her that she was getting “fat” if she gained so much as an ounce. And that’s not the only story I have like that, by far.

    The gay men in the fashion industry are enforcing society’s standards, nothing more.

  29. There are little things you can do to stem the tide. When the boy kids in my house starting making fun of a cartoon character (Meg on family ties) for being ugly and fat, and explained that’s why everyone hated her, I watched the show myself and then had a long talk with them about how they were not getting the irony of the show, which is that Meg is normal and that all the other members ARE in fact mean or overweight, but she gets all the crap, in large part because she is the girl and no one pays her any attention (except negative). Also, when people mention they love Howard Stern, I reply that I don’t because it does not seem fair for butt ugly men to pick apart womens’ looks on the show the way they do. In other words, you don’t have to be strident about it, but call people on this stuff. Most of the time they are repeating what they hear the other sheeple saying and have not really thought it through.

  30. Yeah to what everyone else said about how ‘straight men don’t care about women’s body size’ being the biggest BS ever.

    Don’t get me started.

    In brief, though: I’m 5’7, 135 and love to work out. While I’m pretty average in bone structure, my thighs are not now and will probably never be fatless or non-jiggly. The boys at the gym- and they tend to be white, 18-35 and loudly heterosexual- have informed me at some length that I am FAT. FAT FAT FAT. They can’t stand the sight of my legs that are not fleshless and completely rock-hard bone and a thin covering of muscle. (‘EWWW COVER IT UP! Cover up!’ and ‘GOD you’re a WHALE! Go away before I go blind! YUCK!’- direct quotes.)

    I’m not sure if they’re just insecure about their (obviously very small) penises or if they really believe this shit. Given how hypnotic the media is about the ideal, I suspect both. I don’t think boys really understand how a woman’s body is naturally- that the extremely extremely thin, very lightly muscled by otherwise complete fleshless, bubble-yet-tiny butt and huge uberperky boobs is…

    …entirely the creation of plastic surgeons, extreme diet/exercise programs and photoshop. That even those Maxim models they wank to furiously don’t look like that IRL. The person upthread who mentioned that guys like this have made themselves functionally unable to be attracted to any human being was bang on.

    Anyway. Aside from all that horrendous bullcrap, I’m pretty okay with my body. I’m still able to (sort of) see it in terms of what women ACTUALLY look like. And in those terms it’s young, fit and healthy. This demonization of women for looking like women is so fucked up it’s beyond belief.

    Fat is a feminist issue like flaming WHOA.

  31. I’m a guy and I’ve always found JLH very attractive and not at all “heavy”.

    Just imagine, some advertising schmo was working out there, trudging away on his blah-boring-tight-whitey-Hanes account. He thinks to himself, “you know who I’d like to see in her underwear all the time? Jennifer Love Hewitt.” That guy was a genius, one of my heroes.

    But, with that out of the way, I would point out one other qualification in JLH’s blog-post (which I thought was excellent overall): She complains about “invasive photographs from bad angles.”

    I’m sorry, but those photos do not appear to be at all decieving or visually distorted. I can understand why she can’t just totally own her ass, but it’s sad that she can’t.

  32. I assumed from her dubious acting career and crappy music that she was an airhead. Serve up the crow, please.

    And it’s a damn good thing she’s got something going on downstairs, because otherwise she’d bowl right over in a strong-wind. A fantastic rack is best (in my aesthetic judgment) when matched by gorgeous hips and a grabbable ass.

  33. And furthermore, start with this:

    They (not in the sense of some gay “other,” but “they” in the sense of “people who are not me,” regardless of sexual orientation) = Loads of money.
    Me = Decidedly not.

    I’ve always considered the promotion of body issues into the national consciousness to be a sickingly bourgeoisie endeavor…though certainly having its endpoints in the “Decidedly Not” crowd, but rather having its endpoints therein.

    I’m somewhat distraught why you would believe I was pinning this on gay men, though realizing that it’s probably because you’ve heard that song-and-dance before. Well they’re wrong.

  34. Well, this is gonna be a “problem” until real-world airbrushing technology becomes available. Y’know, like something outta Star Trek. People have cellulite, and veins. Everyone’s body will form weird-looking lumps and bulges as they bend, turn, slouch, etc.

    I’d like to see a Celebrities Strike Back-type deal, w/ current Big Names proving once and for all just how much smoke and mirrors go into photo shoots and movie making. Get all interested takers to pose for photo shoots wearing jeans and a white t-shirt. Natural light, no makeup or hairstyling, no retouching of any kind. Everyone does the same poses: sitting, standing, bending over sideways…then do hair and makeup, repeat the poses, and put ’em up side by side. No retouching, though.

    Maybe knowing what Soandso REALLY looks like would be enough to help people break out of this fake standard nonsense. Kinda like the Dove Real Beauty campaign, only vastly expanded.

    As a parting shot, Project Runway actually helped to improve my body image. No, really. There was this really awful sweaterdress outfit last season that was so short the model’s ass was hanging out. And this woman, who was deemed skinny and beautiful enough to be a runway model, had cellulite. Yeah, she had a tiny, skinny butt, and long thin thighs. And cellulite. So, now I don’t feel quite as bad seeing my own cottage cheese butt and stretch marked hips.

  35. What exactly is at stake in all of this? I only partially understand this “fat positive” perspective.

    Certain segments of society are out to, say, “colonize” women’s bodies. That a woman that does not fit measurement X is not living up to the proper feminine standard. Ok. I can understand the backlash against this, the need to fight against these oppressive standards, that are nothing more than obnoxious power games.

    Any one individual can become attractive to any other individual, yes. This is possible. A fat person can be attractive to a slender person.

    But this empty logical possibility is not what’s at stake. The fat haters are playing a power game, and the fat positive types are responding with their own power and initiative. Fine. Neither perspective – fat negative or fat positive – is really making claims about what is beautiful and what is commonly attractive.

    In other words, when someone on the fat positive side says “fat is beautiful,” they could mean one or both of two things. 1) Fat people are beautiful, or 2) Shut the fuck up and stop telling me how to live my life to please your eyes.

    I’m totally down with (2), but (1) depends on something that just isn’t true. Fat isn’t beautiful, and let’s all admit something here — we all date people of attractiveness that is comparable to our own. If you’re a 7, you commonly date 6s, 7s and 8s. If you’re a 10, you date 9s and 10s.

    Let’s be empirical about this. All the “fat positive” people in the audience — how many of you have dated someone that was significantly heavier than you are? How many of you date such people on a regular basis?

  36. But you know what I mean.

    No, no I don’t. You’re saying that the only people with influence are those with money? Because that’s bullshit. One remark from a boyfriend can be far more devastating than an entire issue of Vogue.

    What exactly is at stake in all of this? I only partially understand this “fat positive” perspective.

    I’m sorry; are you sure you have the right post? We’re talking about a person who isn’t fat here. Your opinion on fat-positivity and how you find fat people disgusting, while fascinating, are misplaced.

    Run along, now. Shoo, shoo.

  37. I really hate the fact that every media outlet is obsessed with the size zero. The Augusta (Ga.) Chronicle is also obsessed with the size zero. I’m glad that Jennifer Love Hewitt told them to kiss her big ass.

    Last season on the Tyra Banks Show, the now 34 year old ex-supermodel (yes, it is Tyra’s birthday today) told the pro-size zero tabloids to kiss her fat ass. I loved every bit of what she said. In fact, it is a hit on YouTube.

  38. To be fair, Jovan, JLH’s ass isn’t big.
    People’s idea of what constitutes “big” is completely warped now.

    Mike, women in particular pair up with partners heavier than themselves all the time. How often do you see a “10” man with a “5” woman? Hardly ever. But “10” women date “5” men all the time. In fact, most couples on television and in the movies consist of a “10” woman with a “5” man!

  39. Fat isn’t beautiful

    Wow, I never noticed that people think that before. I was just sitting here listening to fat positive people and I never noticed that society in general thinks fat people are ugly. It’s not like that’s the entire point of the article you’re commenting on or anything.

    Thank you for reminding me that I’m not beautiful and no one wants to date me, because I never would have figured that one out on my own.

  40. How often do you see a “10″ man with a “5″ woman? Hardly ever.

    Well, casting aside the subjective number scheme here, Mrs. Nation has indeed paired herself up with a somewhat thinner partner:

    Me: 5’11”, 165-170 pounds
    Her: 5’6″, 175-180 pounds

    She comments on this a lot (ain’t no thang to me, whatsoever), so I’m wondering if other women who are on similar footing are concerned by it. And, y’know, why.

  41. It happens on tv, yes, but tv is fantasy. And it isn’t even all that common. Married couples on sitcoms are usually of similar attractiveness. Fresh Prince and King of Queens are exceptions, not rules.

    But since tv is fantasy, it isn’t really relavent to my question. My question was to the fat-positive commentators on this blog. Do you and your fat positive friends commonly date people that are noticeably heavier than you are?

  42. Thank you for reminding me that I’m not beautiful and no one wants to date me, because I never would have figured that one out on my own.

    Meh. I very clearly and very specifically set any such claims aside. If you think I’m claiming that nobody wants to date you, then you might as well think that I’m claiming we should all be eating babies.

  43. I wasn’t commenting on Hewitt.

    Well, then you really *are* lost, aren’t you! Because you keep talking about 5s and 10s and who fat people date. Which is not the subject of the post at all. Run along.

    Oh, you’re still here, are you?

  44. Also, I think some people are scared. With reason. My husband works in an ER. They just installed a lift that can hoist a 1000 lb person. He regularly treats people who are 400lbs. People see that stuff and it scares them. They want to distance themselves from that because of their fear of becoming that. As the flip of the discussion above, it would seem that there would be a feminist interest in addressing the issue of why some women are morbidly obese since it is just as much a health issue as AIDS or breast cancer. That’s the problem (and anorexia). Not the size of JLH’s bikini.

  45. To Mike: Yes, I am restricting your comments, and no, I’m not impressed by your comparisons to MRAs or six-day creationists.

    You’re fat-shaming in a post about fat-shaming. I’m really not interested in indulging your bigotry with our bandwidth here, nor am I interested in rehashing the same old “you people are disgusting and nobody normal is attracted to you” discussion that comes up every single time anything remotely body-positive is posted.

    I *will* give you credit for one thing: you didn’t dress up your “no fat chicks” disgust with “concern” about “health.” Nevertheless, your attempts to drag this discussion into an off-topic discourse of your own prejudices are not welcome.

    Not to mention: for crap’s sake, can’t you people get any new material?

  46. Being morbidly obese is like having AIDS or breast cancer? Wow. News to me.

    Let’s not start on the fat=unhealthy thing here shall we?

  47. “invasive photographs from bad angles.”

    I’m sorry, but those photos do not appear to be at all decieving or visually distorted. I can understand why she can’t just totally own her ass, but it’s sad that she can’t.

    What? She didn’t say the photos were deceiving or visually distorted. She called them invasive, which — the woman had a zoom lens going up her butt, so, I think we can agree on that And she said they were taken from a bad angle, which is also totally true. Your butt can have angles and lighting that flatter it, just like your face can. I think it’s fair to say that angle was not flattering.

    Something about your comment rubbed me the wrong way, and I’m not completely sure why. She said “That’s not a flattering photo of me” and you interpreted it as “My butt doesn’t really look like that!” And I still can’t figure out why I find that misinterpretation annoying. Huh. Maybe just because it makes her sound whiny and like she really cares about having people think she’s hot?

    Well, thanks for giving me something to parse out.

  48. Dao, not in the healtcare profession are you? I am talking about MORBID obesity, not ten extra pounds, and it can CERTAINLY kill you. Plus, do you like walking? Do you know how much pressure 400 pounds puts on your knees? How many joint surgeries the morbidly obese often have just to try to keep being able to stand up? Or what the strain does to your heart? Care if it takes a crane for your doctor to actually examine you because two male nurses can’t turn you over? In the interest of not ‘fat shaming’ we can’t put our hands on our ears and go la la la la extreme obesity is never a health issue, just an image issue. My husband lost 30 lbs and was able to go off high blood pressure and cholesteral medication. He may be around for 10 more years because of it. I loved him either way, but I don’t see that as an IMAGE issue only. I think it is worth seeking ways to help morbidly obese women and men regain their health and quality of life.

  49. bmc90: I need to be in the healthcare profession to start another *yawn* argument about how morbid obesity=unhealthy?

    If you want to talk about health and weight…go somewhere else. It has nothing to do with the post at hand. As zuzu said to someone already: “You’re fat-shaming in a post about fat-shaming.”

  50. I think it is worth seeking ways to help morbidly obese women and men regain their health and quality of life.

    Which is fine and dandy, but as you can see, we’re talking about someone who is a size 2, not someone who needs a forklift to leave the house. So you’re off-topic as well.

    KTHXBAI.

  51. Dao and Roy, sorry to hear you writing off the people my husband treats every day on the plea that it is beneath you to think about how they might be helped, or what about our society is creating this problem, which is likely a species of the same thing creating anorexia, which we normally get the horrors about around here. Please spend a day trying to treat people with this problem before you disdainfully decide it is a non-problem. Also, it’s perfectly legit to talk about the psychology of why people fat shame, and whether their own fear of extreme obesity is a driving factor or not.

  52. Actually, let me add this: probably one of the reasons that we have these conversations over and over is that there *is* such a distorted idea of what “fat” is and what “obese” is, which is not helped by people bringing up people who weigh 400 pounds and how unhealthy they must be when we’re talking about how “thinner than average but not skeletal” got to be the new “fat.”

  53. I very clearly and very specifically set any such claims aside. If you think I’m claiming that nobody wants to date you, then you might as well think that I’m claiming we should all be eating babies.

    I didn’t see you set anything aside. You stated that it’s OK to feel good about feeling fat as long as everyone realizes that fat isn’t beautiful and no one wants to date anyone fatter than they are. (Though I did, back when I was thin and I married my much larger (now ex) husband.)

    And I obviously didn’t think you were claiming no one wants to date me specifically but if you can’t see why that isn’t the point, I can’t help you.

    And I’m done. I apologize to zuzu for feeding the troll.

  54. Kali:

    The shot that I saw was pretty much straight on from directly behind her. As a fat-f*ck myself I can appreciate not wanting to be shot from certain angles (i.e. silhouettes are pretty depressing to me). But I don’t consider them “bad angles”, I consider them angles that don’t hide what I really look like.

    Again, I totally respect what JLH has done with her statement and I’d hope that more people who are supposed to be perceived to be “perfect” would do the same. It’s just that her comment about a “bad angle” made it seem to me that she was somehow keeping all the bases covered.

  55. Also, it’s perfectly legit to talk about the psychology of why people fat shame, and whether their own fear of extreme obesity is a driving factor or not.

    Which, again, is fine, but why do we have to open up the health-justification can of worms? “Health” is often just a cover for bigotry, and people can find the far less obese just as terrifying as the extremely obese.

  56. *bristles at continually being called “Dao”* It’s Daomadan for god’s sake.

    zuzu, you remind me of the BMI project that started with the lj community fatshionista and was highlighted at Shakespeare’s Sister around how someone may look one way, such as healthy, but actually be considered obese or morbidly obese according to the BMI scale. I think a lot of that has to do with the distortion that you mention.

  57. bmc90: Stop putting words into my mouth. I never stated anything was a “non-problem” or “beneath me”. I told you that this was not the place to bring up your arguments on a post about the fat-shaming of a woman who is a size two.

    Okay, done feeding the trolls.

  58. I never mentioned gay men. Exactly why did you think this was my argument?

    Because you said “demographic.” If you meant “income bracket,” that’s what you should have said. Those two things are not the same.

    They (not in the sense of some gay “other,” but “they” in the sense of “people who are not me,” regardless of sexual orientation) = Loads of money.
    Me = Decidedly not.

    The friend I mentioned above was going to a state college at the time, as was her boyfriend. It may be rich media people putting this stuff out into the culture, but it’s picked up by and promulgated by all kinds of people, including people in your demographic and income bracket.

    Yes, there is a race/class component, and it’s at work here: Jennifer Love Hewitt is a pretty, white, middle-class woman, so therefore it’s her duty to conform to society’s standards at every moment, even when she’s on a beach and unaware that a camera is trained on her. And if she fails in that duty, even when she’s on vacation, she’s fair game to have the media come down on her with full force to show her that she’s a failure and needs to be bow to pressure or be shunned.

    So far, she’s resisting that. Good for her. I can add her to my Kate Winslet list of sensible celebrities who realize there are larger social issues surrounding the flack that they get.

  59. Please spend a day trying to treat people with this problem before you disdainfully decide it is a non-problem.

    We’re talking about a woman who’s at least two standard deviations BELOW the American average in weight being labeled fat and the real problem is that some people are severely morbidly obese?

    Any hope for being remotely on target here?

  60. Let’s be empirical about this. All the “fat positive” people in the audience — how many of you have dated someone that was significantly heavier than you are? How many of you date such people on a regular basis?

    Well, I have. My last boyfriend was 6’4″, 250lbs. I’m 5’4″, 130lbs. I’ve always been attracted to realy big guys. No, not “morbidly obese,” but significantly taler and heavier, for sure.

    And I know we’ve kicked him out already, so it’s probably not fair to keep commenting on his posts, but:

    In other words, when someone on the fat positive side says “fat is beautiful,” they could mean one or both of two things. 1) Fat people are beautiful, or 2) Shut the fuck up and stop telling me how to live my life to please your eyes.

    I’m totally down with (2), but (1) depends on something that just isn’t true. Fat isn’t beautiful, and let’s all admit something here — we all date people of attractiveness that is comparable to our own. If you’re a 7, you commonly date 6s, 7s and 8s. If you’re a 10, you date 9s and 10s.

    This appears, at first glance, to be an all right statement. I interpreted the first part to be, “People are attracted to all different kinds of people. For every guy who doesn’t like a girl most would consider to be ‘fat,’ there are many more who would be more attracted to her than they would be to ‘skinny’ women.”

    But, unfortunately, he had to say, “fat isn’t beautiful,” as though his opinion were the gold standard for attraction to mates everywhere.

  61. Jennifer Love Hewitt is a pretty, white, middle-class woman

    She might be pretty and white, but JLH is not middle class. She’s at the top of the financial heap here.

  62. Ugh. Forgive the seemingly horrid spelling errors. My keyboard doesn’t like words with two of the same letters in a row. Or the space bar, it seems.

  63. It’s just that her comment about a “bad angle” made it seem to me that she was somehow keeping all the bases covered.

    Since it was almost certainly shot with a telephoto lens from a far distance, there’s some degree of distortion, though a person who knows more about photography than I do could probably give more detail. In other words, if she turned around and looked at her ass in the mirror, it probably doesn’t look exactly like that, but the gossip rags are more than willing to pretend that it does.

  64. She might be pretty and white, but JLH is not middle class. She’s at the top of the financial heap here.

    She’s a mid-level star on a TV show with middling ratings. Money-wise, she’s got a lot more than the vast majority of Americans, but she’s not royalty like, say, Jennifer Lopez or Gwyneth Paltrow.

    Yes, Hollywood has its own class system that the media promulgates (Kathy Griffin nails it in “Life on the D-List”), and it’s one that (partially) reflects our own class system. You know how people say that the entertainment industry is “high school with money”? That’s absolutely true, and it’s why it’s so important to keep Hewitt in line.

  65. I’ve never understood the kind of people who spend time thinking about whether they are a 9 or a 6, and rating other people similarly. I usually can’t decide whether I’m really attracted to a person until I’ve spoken to them a lot and known them for a while. And often I find that a person has become attractive who I didn’t think was attractive before. Far more often, I find that people become less attractive as I get to know them.

    I suspect that by society’s standards my husband would have a good two points on me, at least. Thank goodness he doesn’t notice those things, has his own standards, and didn’t bother to consult with the good people at TMZ when deciding who was worthy of love.

    I also never understood the countless boys and men who yelled out of cars at me… complimenting me sometimes, and insulting me others. I always wondered when the magical day would come that I would be invisible to these people and finally finally free. It took me a long time to realize that the day never comes, and that a sizeable segment of society (mostly men, but women too) believe that they always have some proprietary right to comment on my body.

    Good for Hewitt, for speaking up about it. And so what if she speaks about her body in a way I wouldn’t speak about mine. It’s her body, and she is really the only person who should feel entitled to comment on its appearance. At least, she’s the only person whose opinion matters.

  66. Because you said “demographic.” If you meant “income bracket,” that’s what you should have said. Those two things are not the same.

    Words words words. Well and good, but even if I did mean demographics as exactly how you expected it, you still put a rather whopping few words in my mouth that you’ve yet to account for. Coulda meant a whole wide world of things for all you know. Why choose gay? Why heap that sort of homophobia on anyone? I’m curious.

    The friend I mentioned above was going to a state college at the time, as was her boyfriend. It may be rich media people putting this stuff out into the culture, but it’s picked up by and promulgated by all kinds of people, including people in your demographic and income bracket.

    Perhaps, but this idleness, this promotion of complete irrelvancy (bone-thinness) as some sort of ideal, both health-wise and, heck, spiritual-wise…to me, it all smacks as kool-aid from the slack rich, the movers and the shakers. Recognize that and you recognize how to stop the disease.

    Yes, there is a race/class component, and it’s at work here: Jennifer Love Hewitt is a pretty, white, middle-class woman

    1) JLH is middle-class? Nuh-uh. Fail.
    2) Race, hm? That’s a bit of a stretch before you even have identified where the problem is coming from, and the cases of Tyra and Star might disprove your point at the onset.

    So far, she’s resisting that.

    Not really. She’s bothering to comment on it, so she’s not exactly resisting anything. A better choice would have been to flip the bird and live your life, methinks. Either that or go for an all-out crusade against this nonsense. There’s no middle ground.

  67. Re whether women ever date or marry men who are thinner than they are:

    I’ve always been heavier than my husband, and I would be if I was at my lowest weight (which was actively thin) because my husband is SKINNY. When I met him he was 6’0″ and 115 lbs. He’s since gotten up to a healthy 140 (and he whines about getting fat every time he needs to buy pants that normal humans can fit in :-)), but at my thinnest (5’0″ and 98 lbs) I wasn’t anywhere near as thin as his thinnest was. And I’m significantly heavier than him (a foot shorter and 20 lbs heavier = much, much fatter.)

    So yes, women do in fact successfully date and marry men who are thinner than they are. But then, most women aren’t attracted to a really unusual beauty standard — my husband is an albino, which I find goddamn gorgeous, but I have overheard women making negative comments on his looks, so maybe *they* think I’ve married down in the attractiveness scale. Of course I don’t give a shit what they think; my husband has many faults, but in my opinion he is damn hot.

    Also, you gotta remember, extreme thinness is considered a*bad* thing for men in our culture. Men are supposed to be muscular, either bulky and muscular or thin and wiry; thin and bony is not considered “attractive” for men any more than “slightly overweight” is considered “attractive” for women. So I wouldn’t be totally surprised if most super-thin men are dating or married to women heavier than they are.

  68. I am much heavier (and taller) than my boyfriend. But I didn’t really take time to assign us “numbers” for attractiveness. I just know we love each other and support each other and generally have a great time together. A lot of people comment on the height difference especially (they probably no better than to comment on weight)– it’s seen as freakish for a girl to be taller than a guy– another level of stupidity I won’t go off on…..

    POINT IT— I guess being a size 16 didn’t ruin my life or my chance at being happy and in love. So anyone claiming otherwise can just shut it.

    I’m perfectly aware that some men out there would scoff at dating people my size, but that’s fine, I wouldn’t want to date a jerk either. So it works out.

    Thanks Zuzu for regulating the trolls. And to all my other “big” girls *(JLH not included because she’s shaped NORMALLY)* — our “worth” as human beings is not determined by our shape. And screw anyone who tries to tell you different.

    GO JLH for speaking out against this craziness.

    Shit like this sends a very clear message… even the thin women need to be in fear of the “f” word (FAT, not feminist) 😉

  69. Words words words. Well and good, but even if I did mean demographics as exactly how you expected it, you still put a rather whopping few words in my mouth that you’ve yet to account for. Coulda meant a whole wide world of things for all you know. Why choose gay? Why heap that sort of homophobia on anyone? I’m curious.

    Shorter DN: Stop analyzing the words I use! They don’t mean anything!

    DN, hon, we’ve all seen that canard before, and it always means that either women or gay men run the fashion industry and are therefore responsible for women’s poor self-image. As I said above, regardless of who you’re wink-wink-nudge-nudging about, it’s still crap. The fashion industry feeds off women’s insecurities, but they’re not the sole creators of them.

    And isn’t it curious that it’s always men who want to disavow any complicity in scrutinizing female bodies who throw up the fashion-industry smokescreen.

  70. But Zuzu, don’t you see? If we give JLH permission to gain weight to an actual-integer size, then women ALL OVER THE WORLD will think it’s okay to just EAT AND EAT AND EAT UNTIL THEY EXPLODE, and explode we all will, every last one of us!

    I know it shouldn’t need to be said, but even the vast majority of us who are “obese” are biologically incapable of ever weighing 400 pounds. And those who are? Frequently got there by unwittingly following a regime not unlike those sumo wrestlers follow on purpose (starve, binge, starve, binge, starve, binge, etc., etc.) So if you want to create more 400-pound people? Keep on shaming the JLHes of the world, by all means, because little girls catch on to such things young, the better to slow their metabolism to a crawl as early as possible by dieting.

  71. Meggygurl (#25), you said that your mother called you fat.

    So did mine. All the time. To the point she’d make me hop on her exercise bike and pedal, standing over me with a yardstick. My father, though, never said a negative thing about my appearance. I got all the flack from my mom.

    Is this the case with you? Any of you? It always seemed so odd to me, getting two different reactions from the two most important people in my life.

    I have struggled with my weight for years. The women on my father’s side all tend to be on the heavy end, and though I eat right and work out every day ON MY BIKE (my mother never could effectively quash my love of biking!), I will never be a size 2. I’ll never even probably be a size 7. And it’s taken a long time for me to be okay with that.

  72. Good post, Zuzu. Sick, sad world when JLH’s ass-size is actually the subject of a debate.

    I read some posts yesterday saying her comments weren’t fat-positive because she mentioned having “a waist.” And hence that meant she didn’t mean “real” fat people should wear bikinis. Well, when the standard has been twisted into how many bones you can have jutting out of your skin, having a waist indicates breasts and hips sit above and below, which is actually considered fat these days! I think that’s where she was coming from.

    As for whether or not she’s really a size 2 or not, I don’t give a shit what her real size is. The point is that when you call someone who looks like her fat, you’re saying that anyone woman with a normal body is fat and should do whatever it takes to make herself an “acceptable” looking anorexic. So sad.

  73. Dao and Roy, sorry to hear you writing off the people my husband treats every day on the plea that it is beneath you to think about how they might be helped, or what about our society is creating this problem, which is likely a species of the same thing creating anorexia, which we normally get the horrors about around here.

    I did no such thing.

    I just don’t see how a post about Jennifer Love Hewitt’s response to a tabloid offering a “critique” of her ass is enhanced by you saying: “I am talking about MORBID obesity, not ten extra pounds, and it can CERTAINLY kill you. Plus, do you like walking? Do you know how much pressure 400 pounds puts on your knees? How many joint surgeries the morbidly obese often have just to try to keep being able to stand up? Or what the strain does to your heart? Care if it takes a crane for your doctor to actually examine you because two male nurses can’t turn you over?”

    Unless you’re suggesting that Hewitt is in danger of needing a crane?

    I thought not.

  74. She’s a mid-level star on a TV show with middling ratings. Money-wise, she’s got a lot more than the vast majority of Americans, but she’s not royalty like, say, Jennifer Lopez or Gwyneth Paltrow.

    Yes, Hollywood has its own class system that the media promulgates (Kathy Griffin nails it in “Life on the D-List”), and it’s one that (partially) reflects our own class system. You know how people say that the entertainment industry is “high school with money”? That’s absolutely true, and it’s why it’s so important to keep Hewitt in line.

    Okay, continuing the detour here: the fact that JLH is not Hollywood royalty at the absolute top of the tree does NOT make her middle class compared to the commentariat here.

    It’s the same kind of distortion you see with her weight: it’s an entirely different metric of assessment. If I’m a size 4, that makes me thin. If Kristin Davis is a 4, she’s clearly in the same category as livestock.

    JLH might be Hollywood middle class, but she sure is not anywhere else.

  75. Shorter DN: Stop analyzing the words I use!

    Actual DN: You mis-analyzed my words.

    DN, hon, we’ve all seen that canard before, and it always means that either women or gay men run the fashion industry and are therefore responsible for women’s poor self-image.

    I’m sorry you’ve heard that before. I’m sorry you’ve heard many other things before. None of which were contained herein.

    As I said above, regardless of who you’re wink-wink-nudge-nudging about, it’s still crap.

    I’m sorry you believe my analysis was wink-wink-nudge-nudge. Kinda gotta feel that “screw the rich” doesn’t really sound wink-wink-nudge-nudge. Quite frankly, any more than society/patriarchy (which plays a part with the rich stuff, obviously).

    The fashion industry feeds off women’s insecurities, but they’re not the sole creators of them.

    Here is what I’ve said:

    Perhaps, but this idleness, this promotion of complete irrelvancy (bone-thinness) as some sort of ideal, both health-wise and, heck, spiritual-wise…to me, it all smacks as kool-aid from the slack rich, the movers and the shakers. Recognize that and you recognize how to stop the disease.

    …which would appears as if I agree with the last line of yours I quoted. So yeah, I agree with you. Wink. Nudge.

    And isn’t it curious that it’s always men who want to disavow any complicity in scrutinizing female bodies

    Uh, I don’t. As in, I don’t. I think the practice is disgusting.

    who throw up the fashion-industry smokescreen.

    …this is hardly the method you know…

  76. Why oh why did people on this thread have to start discussing the body types they like? Like the fantastic-rack-should-go-with-gorgeous-hips statement. What does that even mean? Fantastic should go with gorgeous? I can only assume you mean big boobs should go with big hips. Which is still a body judgement. Until all body types are embraced, rather than pitting skinny, small breasted and butted women against curvey, large busted and butted women against each other. I’m sorry that I wasn’t blessed with curves, but when you say that only curvaceous women are beautiful, it’s just as mean and limiting and damaging to self esteem as saying that only skinny women are beautiful.

  77. Here’s what you said that drew the criticism, DN:

    Internet-speak is tough to nail down, so I’ll add that I didn’t mean that in any snarky/sarcastic way. I’ll also add that among pretty much 100% of the males I know, womens’ bodies are *hardly* the area of scrutiny they are for the women themselves…the jump into the dating pool for all of us seemed to start with “is she interesting?” then “is she fun?” then “will she tolerate me?” THEN “is she reasonably attractive?”.

    I’m curious of the demographics for fashion bigwigs, where this body image rot seems to start. Got a hunch they aren’t necessarily mine.

    You’re clearly saying with this that “fashion industry bigwigs” who are responsible for this “body image rot” are people unlike you; i.e., not straight men who appreciate a body like JLH’s. I never responded to your economic theory because it makes no sense whatsoever, and in any event, depends on a definition of “demographic” that, as others have pointed out, is nonstandard.

    Why oh why did people on this thread have to start discussing the body types they like? Like the fantastic-rack-should-go-with-gorgeous-hips statement. What does that even mean? Fantastic should go with gorgeous? I can only assume you mean big boobs should go with big hips. Which is still a body judgement. Until all body types are embraced, rather than pitting skinny, small breasted and butted women against curvey, large busted and butted women against each other. I’m sorry that I wasn’t blessed with curves, but when you say that only curvaceous women are beautiful, it’s just as mean and limiting and damaging to self esteem as saying that only skinny women are beautiful.

    Point taken. That anyone is even discussing JLH’s fuckability or their preferred fuckable body type is just more evidence that women’s bodies are public property.

  78. D.N., I can accept that you may not have been making a reference to the gays and women in charge of the fashion industry canard. I immediately assumed that was your reference as well though, and I had the same reaction as Zuzu (though I had my reaction quietly).

    We had that reaction for valid reasons and I think you’ll find that our reaction is more common than not. Rather than defending yourself and blaming the misunderstanding on us you might want to think more carefully about this kind of argument in the future.

  79. Evil, Roy, et. al. I am not a troll. JLH was fat shamed. People feel that fat shaming is legit. They feel it to such a moronic degree that they fat shame JLH. I am wondering if some of it comes from their own irrational fat fear, driven not so much by JLH, but by people who actually do have a serious health issue. Maybe it’s the other way around. People have serious health issues because they have freaked out about trying to look like JLH. If you don’t like fat shaming in any of its forms, why not talk about why it happens?

  80. Evil, Roy, et. al. I am not a troll. JLH was fat shamed. People feel that fat shaming is legit. They feel it to such a moronic degree that they fat shame JLH. I am wondering if some of it comes from their own irrational fat fear, driven not so much by JLH, but by people who actually do have a serious health issue. Maybe it’s the other way around. People have serious health issues because they have freaked out about trying to look like JLH. If you don’t like fat shaming in any of its forms, why not talk about why it happens?

    Here’s the problem: you can talk about fat-shaming without buying into the framing of the fat-shamers (i.e., without bringing in the “health” justification). They’re not afraid of being unhealthy, they’re afraid of being fat (or, rather, of being *called* fat, because *calling people fat* is a means of social control). They’re using “concern” about “health” to cover up for their aesthetic judgments, probably because they know they’re irrational. And this “concern” about “health” is just another way of controlling people via shame (and has the bonus of separating the “good, healthy fat people” from the “bad, unhealthy fat people”).

    Keeping the focus on the fat people rather than the fat shamers is just buying into the fat-shamers’ game. Don’t do it; you’re smarter than that.

  81. never responded to your economic theory because it makes no sense whatsoever, and in any event, depends on a definition of “demographic” that, as others have pointed out, is nonstandard.

    while I don’t want to defend all of D N’s ideas, economics plays a huge role in discussions of body shaming-I don’t think it’s a coincidence that most commonly presented idea of beauty is white, and that rich women are more likely to look close to it. getting to define beauty is one more example of the power of having money. there are a lot of racial components there too, which should be discussed. so I guess I’d like to hear a reason economics shouldn’t be part of this discussion?

  82. You’re clearly saying with this that “fashion industry bigwigs” who are responsible for this “body image rot” are people unlike you; i.e., not straight men who appreciate a body like JLH’s.

    “Clearly stating” being a subjective science, of course. My brain is closer to itself than you are to it, so I can assure you, the whole straightness/gayness argument was something never came to mind. Dudes I know, after all, are merely dudes I know.

    This isn’t even worth arguing. Translation mishap. I mean, for pete’s sake, I agree with you. Mostly. Until:

    I never responded to your economic theory because it makes no sense whatsoever

    …and that’s it? C’mon. Go on.

    and in any event, depends on a definition of “demographic” that, as others have pointed out, is nonstandard.

    dem·o·graph·ics
    –noun
    (used with a plural verb) the statistical data of a population, esp. those showing average age, income, education, etc.

    Taken from dictionary.com.

    D.N., I can accept that you may not have been making a reference to the gays and women in charge of the fashion industry canard.

    Uh. Thanks for your leniency.

    Also, “may not”? What’s up with that, anyway? Try “did not.”

    We had that reaction for valid reasons

    A hint:

    Me: Blah blah blah demographics blah blah.
    You: Just so we’re clear, D.N., are you referring to gays in the fashion industry, or something else entirely?
    Me: I was not referring to gays in the fashion industry.

    See how well that worked?

    Rather than defending yourself and blaming the misunderstanding on us you might want to think more carefully about this kind of argument in the future.

    Absolutely. As long as you think more carefully about our imaginary conversation above.

    By the way, zuzu, this topic title makes me laugh every time I revisit it.

  83. Economics can be part of this discussion, but DN wants us to believe that he was really presenting an economic critique when he was pondering what kind of person (who’s not a straight male) is running the fashion industry and is thus responsible for women’s body-image problems. When called on it, he tried to play Ynigo Montoya.

  84. ajesquire: I dunno, it seems to me like it’s just as viable to think the gorgeous shots of you are what you really look like, and the unflattering angles hide it! And straight on isn’t as good a look for butts as threequarters, for example. I can’t believe I just wrote that sentence. But I get why I was annoyed now… I used to define my appearance by how I looked at my worst, and compare myself in morning mode to people who were airbrushed. I look back on it now and know it was completely insane to think that way, bordering on mild body dysmorphia. & I picked up a whiff of that in your comment, that we should define ourselves by our flaws, like they’re truer somehow. I know with you it’s probably not coming from a neurotic place, but with me that way of thinking made me miserable and crazy. And it wasn’t until writing this that I realised I don’t feel this way at all any more, so yay me and thank you!

  85. bmc90, when I tell people that my recent 40 lbs weight loss was due to a hyperactive thyroid, they often congratulate me anyway and say I’m lucky to have an illness that made me thin.

    I shit you not. But fat shaming is, according you, mainly rooted in fears about health. Riiiiight.

  86. I dunno, it seems to me like it’s just as viable to think the gorgeous shots of you are what you really look like, and the unflattering angles hide it!

    But wouldn’t the best way to look at it be to realise that both shots are what you really look like, and they both look fine? By saying a shot that makes your butt look bigger is “unflattering” and “not what you really look like”, you’re buying into the idea that having a small butt is better and having a big butt is a flaw. It’s not. There’s nothing at all wrong with a bigger butt.

  87. …and that’s it? C’mon. Go on.

    Yes. That’s it. You responded to my response to you, and I corrected your response to my response, rather than respond to your new assertion. Clear?

    Next time, perhaps just spit it out, whatever it is you’re trying to say. But it’s clear that you’re trying to pin “body image rot” on people who are not like you, and (once again) that’s just bullshit. We are ALL conditioned to police women’s bodies, but men feel a special entitlement to do so. Your response to JLH’s pictures (I like her body) is completely consistent with that. Because of course we want to know that you approve of her body! Just as of course we’d want to know if you disapproved of her body, or of someone else’s who didn’t strike your fancy.

    Just because you don’t agree with the fashion industry about the ideal woman’s body doesn’t mean that you don’t participate in the very same “body image rot” that you ascribe to them, and only them.

  88. But wouldn’t the best way to look at it be to realise that both shots are what you really look like, and they both look fine? By saying a shot that makes your butt look bigger is “unflattering” and “not what you really look like”, you’re buying into the idea that having a small butt is better and having a big butt is a flaw. It’s not. There’s nothing at all wrong with a bigger butt.

    Oh, definitely that’s better. But it’s easier said than done; we believe this beauty stuff at such a deep subconscious level. We associate so many elusive, intangible things with beauty, and girls with low self esteem will reject the idea that they are physically beautiful just because they can’t see those intangible qualities in themselves. So if you can accept that a picture of you appearing physically beautiful isn’t just a fluke but a true representation of you, then you can start to see yourself as beautiful despite being “flawed” and eventually you can go on from there to see that the “flaws” don’t matter and neither does the beauty really; it was the stuff that has come to be symbolised by beauty that you wanted, and had, all along. Am I making any sense? Probably not; but that’s how it has unfolded in my head.

  89. I had people – all men – express concern that if I quit smoking I’d gain weight; that if I started riding my bike for exercise my thighs would get too big; my ass was fat; my stomach was too pudgy and carrying fat on your stomache is the most dangerous…and on and on. My BMI at the time? 17.5. Men tend to police the close-to-ideal.

    Fat-shaming is not about health – it is not even about fat. Fat-shaming is about maintaining the idea that women’s bodies are public property.

  90. They’ve narrowed down the number of human beings who can turn them on to exactly zero.

    Very apt statement. The way beauty trends have been going, it won’t be long before the only women who conform are completely invisible.

    Is this what those who love to enforce beauty standards have in mind….or not?

  91. There’s a turn of phrase that bothers me:

    “I’m a size XYZ.” “She’s a size ABC.”

    We are the arbitrary number on the label inside our clothes? That makes me uncomfortable.

    I wear clothes in about three different sized depending on the manufacturer and their marketing strategy (expensive clothes always have a smaller number on the label–to make the wearer so pleased that she can wear an X that she’ll pay extra). If I buy a pattern to make something for myself, the number printed on the envelope is something else altogether. The number on the label is meaningless. Let’s not attach our identities to it.

  92. I married a fat guy. He’s not chubby, he’s not heavy, he’s morbidly obese (which I mention not as an insult, merely a statement of fact).

    When I married him, it wasn’t because I found fat people particularly attractive, it was because I wanted to marry HIM, and hey, he just happened to be fat.

    An interesting thing happened, though. The more time I spent with my husband, the more his fatness, and the fatness of others, seemed perfectly normal, even (gasp!) acceptable. I got less judgemental of weight issues. I frequently subconsciously assigned my husband’s positive qualities to others who physically resembled him. I became, in a very subtle way, more genial towards heavy strangers.

    I guess fat shamers could look at this as a horrible thing. “OMG, she thinks fat people are NORMAL! The horror! Quick, send her out for reprogramming! Doesn’t she know the health issues involved?!?”

    Well, I do. So does my husband.

    I also understand that by insisting that all of our ideal representatives of beauty and intelligence also have a certain BMI means that society will automatically assign certain (positive)characteristics to others with the same BMI.

    Do you want to be perceived as intelligent? Interesting? Hard working? You’d goddamned well better be skinny, and if you step outside of ‘skinny,’ you’d better be prepared to be ridiculed.

    Jennifer Love Hewitt’s major crime seems to be migrating from “super skinny” to “approaching the skinny end of normal.” Dear God, the horror. Quick, dock her fifty ‘hotness’ points and ridicule her until she steps back in line!

  93. You guys seriously started this thread quibbling that “she doesn’t look like a size 2”? Seriously????

  94. expensive clothes always have a smaller number on the label–to make the wearer so pleased that she can wear an X that she’ll pay extra

    I don’t find that at all. I usually find less expensive clothes run big (resulting on a smaller number on the label for the same size), probably because the people buying them tend to be bigger, so their average size should be bigger. More expensive clothes (in my experience) usually run smaller, which is how you end up with rich thin women sniffing about those poor deluded fatties buying into “vanity sizing” and thinking they’re thin.

    But back on topic, that phrasing bothers me too. It’s a way of reducing women to their clothing size. I’ve started making a conscious effort to say: “I wear a size 14” rather than “I am a size 14″…. because I am not my clothing size.

  95. Okay, continuing the detour here: the fact that JLH is not Hollywood royalty at the absolute top of the tree does NOT make her middle class compared to the commentariat here.

    How many of the commentariat here have been shown in a bikini on the TMZ.com website with snarky remarks? Raise your hand, please.

    That was my point. Is Jennifer Love Hewitt herself, at this moment, a middle-class woman working an ordinary job? No. She’s a public figure. And because she’s a public figure, she must be publicly kept in line at all times, and even more so because she’s not a “real” star. She represents a white, middle-class woman, and there is a particular standard that she is expected to meet because of that.

    Are you seriously arguing that the way the media portrays celebrities is not meant to have any influence on the way ordinary people think and behave?

  96. And let’s not feed the troll, people.

    Aw, man! And here I had a great, “Let’s get empirical on your ass!” comment ready to go. Seriously. It would have been great.

    JLH was criticized for not doing her job, which is to be pleasing to everyone’s eyes at all times without fail. And she failed! She’s an ugly failure! Look out girls, because you might be failing to please at this very second. Don’t think you’re acceptable, because you’re not. EVER! Be afraid! Be compliant!

    That is the whole point, right?

  97. it won’t be long before the only women who conform are completely invisible.

    It’s impossible to conform – in popular culture the categories “too fat” and “looks anorexic” have considerable overlap. I’ve been told both when I was at the same weight.

  98. She’s a public figure. And because she’s a public figure, she must be publicly kept in line at all times, and even more so because she’s not a “real” star. She represents a white, middle-class woman, and there is a particular standard that she is expected to meet because of that.

    So your point is that she’s just a symbol of a certain demographic that must be kept in line at all costs? That’s certainly not a reading I would have ascribed to your original comment, but okay.

    Even for celebrities who are at the top of the heap and considered royalty, there’s still no exclusionary rule at work here. There are still people dying to take shots at Gwyenth Paltrow for her baby weight and all sort of things like that. JLH is just in the spotlight at present. It’s not an A-list versus B-list distinction, but rather a woman who should conform to a completely unattainable standard of beauty failing and being clobbered for it.

    Are you seriously arguing that the way the media portrays celebrities is not meant to have any influence on the way ordinary people think and behave?

    Well, seeing as how the debacle caused by the media is the result of ordinary people piling on to fat shame, no, of course not.

  99. Tobes, I am a lot heavier and taller than my husband as well (I’m 5’10” and about 185 lb, he’s 5’6″ and maybe 130 lb soaking wet). Plus, I’m white and he isn’t. I never know what we’re being stared at and whispered about at any given time. Could be my size 14 ass and his skinny one, could be that I’m so much taller, or it could be that he’s very dark and I’m glow in the dark white. What people really need to do is get over themselves and just let other people be who (and what shape/color/whatever) they are.

    And speaking to the fat shaming: My sister (who at 5’6″ and a size 8 after having a kid is definitely the thin member of the family) calls her two year old daughter “fatty”. We live a few hundred miles apart, so I don’t see her as often as I’d like, but we were together over Thanksgiving. And she constantly called that baby fat. Like a toddler can be fat. I was floored and called her on it, but she didn’t stop doing it.

  100. “but when you say that only curvaceous women are beautiful, it’s just as mean and limiting and damaging to self esteem as saying that only skinny women are beautiful.”

    Yeah, except skinny women get more a lot backing from society than curvaceous women. Look, I’m a beanpole, tall and skinny and flat, I wear boy cut jeans, and I can’t say no one’s ever told me I’m too skinny or said other things along those lines, especially because that isn’t the ideal for most people in my culture. And I’ll absolutely agree that no one has any right to appraise my body, it’s just as bad in theory as doing it to anyone else. But as aggravated as I get, I can’t even begin to compare my experiences with the hell that my larger sized sister goes through, in terms of both public and pivate ridicule and just the daily inconveniences of living in a world that does not make much of an effort to accomodate her body type in a lot of ways. Yes, it’s equally wrong, but let’s get real. While I think it’s always creepy for strangers to think they have ownership of one’s body, I’m guessing expecting someone to scream abuse at you and instead having them say something “nice” might be a relief. And nobody actually said only curvaceous women are beautiful, they said that having a female body type is considered unacceptable, which I agree with, and no, I don’t think that means anyone’s calling me not a real woman because of how I’m shaped. We still get flak we shouldn’t, every woman does, but while we can’t help how we’re shaped if we need validation there is a demonstrably larger pool of of people in this culture who’ll provide it. *shrugs*

    Is this the case with you? Any of you? It always seemed so odd to me, getting two different reactions from the two most important people in my life.

    *nods* Yeah, as far as I know, my dad has never said a word to any of his daughters about our weights. But that has a lot to do with his personality, he’s just a really nice, laid back person. I do remember my grandfather (his father) making a mean weight-based remark about my sister one time while she was sitting right there, and as for our mom, yeah. Again mostly about personality, probably, but she’s really sort of high strung, hypercritical and mean (though she has emotional and mental issues, though not weight-based ones as far as I know, so it’s not really her fault, but she does tend to use the passive-aggressive health argument which, yeah, not helpful at all).

  101. Kali,

    That’s cool. And I think we are in total agreement. Believe it or not, there’s quite a growing problem with male body dysmorphia. My theory is that men who criticize women like JLH for that bikini shot are, in part at least, striking out from their own feelings of inadequecy.

    I guess my point about JLH’s “bad angle” comment was that it seemed like a refusal or inability to totally embrace her own body. In other words, I read her as saying “I’m not ashamed of the way I look . . . but just so you know, my butt really isn’t as big as it looks from behind.”

  102. roses: Thanks! I wasn’t quite sure if the BMI project had started on LJ or elsewhere. Thanks for the link.

  103. I’m going to preface this by saying that I don’t know if this will contribute anything useful to the discussion, but I felt the need to analyse the picture since no one else had, beyond carping about how JLH is whining that the shot wasn’t flattering. We tend to forget that photography is a representation of reality, not reality itself. It has limitations, and one of those is that it really does flatten objects/subjects out and removes a chunk of the 3-dimensionality that we see in real life. That’s why photogs light studio shots so carefully, and even stage lighting is carefully angled to preserve the roundness of what’s on stage.

    So, I finally got a look at the bikini shot in question, and all I can say is: that particular shot wouldn’t be flattering to ANYONE. Period. She is standing with her legs wider than hip width apart which allows any fat/curvature *anywhere* on her thighs to show, and also emphasizes the width of her hips because, gosh, her legs aren’t plastered together and therefore the musculature is spread out some. She is also wearing a bikini that might actually stay in place in the water, like actually *swimming*, instead of one that just looks nice but will fall off the second it gets wet. And a straight on shot of anyone’s butt is going to make it look the widest it can. Contrast that shot with the posed glam shot of her at the top of the linked post. Figure hugging dress, almost certainly with foundation garments of some sort to smooth the natural lumps and divets any human being has (as well as lift things). Feet and thighs together, one leg bent and turned in. All she is missing is the 3/4 torso turn of the classic starlet pose. Anyone who takes pictures will tell you that is one of the most flattering ways to stand for *any* woman (which is a whole ‘nother kettle of fish and I’m not going into it). It plays up the outward/inward curves that are considered attractive even while being a REALLY unnatural pose. And that is the difference between candids and photo op shots. (If you look at the width of her shoulders vs. hips, she is even a classic hourglass.)

    Sheesh! Those folks dissing her ass need to take some pictures of their own rumps for comparison! Or better yet, just back the hell off. She actually looks *normal* instead of Hollwood skinny, and that’s kind of refreshing. No, wait. That is VERY refreshing, and I’m glad she finally spoke up about it, even if it was a less than optimal statement.

    OK — I’ll go away and stop analysing photos now….

  104. Laurie, I didn’t do the kind of analysis of the photo that you did, but I did think that if the camera had been one inch closer to her ass it would have taken some colonoscopy shots!

  105. Rose:
    Hee! 🙂 Pretty much, yeah!

    Sadly, the shot *could* have been closer, or at least even more cropped, and it would have looked even worse. At least with this one you get the hip to waist curve, too. Honestly, I don’t think I’d look twice at her if I had seen her on the beach. But I don’t go around analysing other people’s butts randomly. Just when they ask me to. 😉

    What I don’t get is why some people are obsessed with catching “stars/celebrities” looking, uh, less than perfect. If they were “on” all the time, they’d go insane. Some of them arguable *are*. This, if anything, convinces me that humans are just weirdly obsessive about inconsquential things. I mean honestly, if your only care is the size of someone else’s ass, you have a pretty good life. Can we blame the patriarchy now?

  106. D.N. Nation said:

    Internet-speak is tough to nail down, so I’ll add that I didn’t mean that in any snarky/sarcastic way. I’ll also add that among pretty much 100% of the males I know, womens’ bodies are *hardly* the area of scrutiny they are for the women themselves…the jump into the dating pool for all of us seemed to start with “is she interesting?” then “is she fun?” then “will she tolerate me?” THEN “is she reasonably attractive?”.

    I completely disagree with this. I hear men talk all the time about women’s bodies, especially younger men. I hear them talking about how ‘saggy boobs’ are gross, how this woman’s boobs are too small, how that woman’s boobs are fabulous, how this woman has fat thighs, how that chick’s butt is “grabbable”, how that woman doesn’t shave as often as she should, how they’re never date a ‘fat chick’ or a ‘chick who don’t shave downstairs’…I once even heard a man raving about how some internet porn star had “the perfect looking crotch”.

    Yes, straight men do care about women’s looks. Men DO give women a complex about their appearances. It isn’t all men’s fault, but please do not try to suggest that it’s all women being catty or gay fashion designers. Men play a huge role.

    Kat – not just young women. Trust me, it gets worse as you get older. Not only is your body not right, but now your face shows the passage of time, too.

    That’s a shame. It’s really, really a shame.

  107. What’s sad is all the men who rush to defend the shaming of anyone who has a female body are getting off on the power, but don’t realize how they’re hurting themselves. They’re straight but find women unattractive. They’ve narrowed down the number of human beings who can turn them on to exactly zero.

    As a heterosexual man, I just don’t get it. I’m sorry, I just don’t.

  108. “T Mobile, is currently running a feature called “Flabulous!” with a bunch of celebrities at the beach, not in the world’s best shape.”

    Excuse me?

    Time to dump my T-Mobile account, and to tell every friend I have that is over size 2 to do the same. Do these ignorant assholes have any clue as to how disgustingly offensive this is?

    5’9 size12 and proud of it.

  109. I have a theory:

    When men do shit-tastic things like gang up on pictures of women for falling short of some insane body-type that doesn’t exist absent make-up crews, well-timed dehydration, and careful lighting, they are not actually displaying their real beliefs about what women should look like, or what is actually sexy or whatnot. We’re giving them way too much credit. They are competing against other men, in the all important game of shaming a guy for being insignificantly picky. I checked out the comments at the TMZ site (which I do NOT recommend) and a lot (but by no means all) of the most vile and mysogynistic comments were directed at men who ‘defended’ JLH – ‘defended’ cause mostly it was just them deigning to want to fuck her. It’s incredibly twisted, now that I think about it, and I’ve been in similar conversations where the idea that there is a large range of attractiveness, and that different people have different tastes, is seen as really threatening. Men aren’t really allowed to disagree with the fat-shaming misogyny by these jackasses – and Amanda has it exactly right! It’s because the idiocy of it is straight men acting nauseated at the site of a female body. It’s wierd homosocial behaviour like this that convinces me the closet has to be destroyed – men at war with themselves are by definition at war with everyone.

  110. I remembered a blog post at a genetics oriented website where the poster compared two collages of faces of porn stars and runway models. The models had these “cut”, angular faces with very little fat, and the porn stars had normal female-looking, albeit above average cuteness, soft faces. The poster noted that gay men tend to pick run way models and straight men tend to pick porn stars, the market at work.

    Could it be possible that women are blaming straight men for gay men’s objectification of various parts of the female figure. As a straight man, that strikes me as particularly unfair.

  111. Could it be possible that women are blaming straight men for gay men’s objectification of various parts of the female figure. As a straight man, that strikes me as particularly unfair.

    No. Have you not read the thread?

  112. Now that bmc90 has repented, this comment might not be necessary, but here’s what’s wrong with her bringing up her husband. You can’t say at the same time that (1) Ooh, if you only knew how my husband, who has an unusual job, uses cranes and forklifts on the 400+ pound set, you’d hate fat too and (2) The mass hysteria about Jennifer Love Hewitt is based on fear of these extreme & exotic possibilities. See, bmc90? If you husband has special professional knowledge, then what he has learned about obesity doesn’t explain the the mass fear and hatred. If what he knows is what we all know, well, then, you might as well STFU.

  113. Asher, this post isn’t about runway models. It’s about straight male commenters on the internet talking about how fat and gross Jennifer Love Hewitt’s size 2 ass is. In private, they may and probably do jerk off to women who have a similar body type to JLH, but in public they shame and insult her. It’s not about preferences, it’s about keeping women in line.

  114. “Larger than usual”? Hah. I thought size 6 was the ideal, and now it’s size 0? Typical. Time for me to stop hiking and start trying to disappear (that is, if I gave a shit about what people thought). If I went to a gym, I’m sure I’d get the same kind of reactions as Cymbal @#32 above, ’cause I’m exactly the same size. Weird thought — people don’t do that at our university gym. And for the record, my boyfriend is 5.5 inches taller than me and the same weight, so there’s another datum for you.

    It seems that the behaviour of straight men on these forums must fall into one of the following categories:
    1) (Display hypothesis) They’re displaying their pickiness for the benefit of other men as a dominance/status/class thing. “I can afford to reject incredibly gorgeous women as not meeting my standards, therefore I am higher status than you.” While, of course, they wank to pictures of similar women when no-one’s looking.
    2) (Closet hypothesis) They’re closeted.
    3) (Photoshop toxicity hypothesis) They’ve gotten so used to having their advertising/publicity/pornographic photos of women heavily airbrushed that they genuinely can no longer become aroused by unaltered photos, or, presumably, the presence, of a real live woman. That is, their libidos are suffering from airbrush toxicity.
    Which ones are most likely? I mean, I’m sure there are cases of all three, but which one do you-all think is most common? Me, I’m inclined to think of people as monkeys so I go with the display hypothesis as probably dominant, but I’m no media studies or sexual psychology expert.
    Also, JLH is 5’2″? I had no idea she was so tiny. Huh, what movies and publicity shots will do to distort size.

  115. A gossip site is not exactly common faire for the average male, so I fail to see how this has anything to do the the corpus of the average male sexual. As I can only speak from my personal experience I can assure you that what you are describing is not the formative experience for the vast majority of working and middle class men.

    I will say that there seems to be a direct correlation between male sexual pickiness and their social status. Most men simply can’t afford to be that picky as their economic and social status don’t give them a wide range of sexual choice. The men who are really critical about a woman’s appearance would seem to be that high-powered, high-status alpha male, but then this phenomenon is due to that fact that such alphaness is sexually selected to have that sort of power. Sexually selected BY WOMEN. Someone here said that men “give women a complex” about their appearance, but this is just a general manifestation of assortive mating. Women are just as likely, probably more so, to “give men a complex” through assortive mating as are men to women. I’m 5’7 which immediately gets me rejected by at least half the women in America. It would give me a complex if I let it but over the years I’ve simply accepted that this feature makes me less desirable than other men, all other things being equal.

    Men will stop assortively mating by physical appearance when women stop assortively mating by social and economic status. In other words, when high-power female corporate types hit on the cute waiter and marry him for the purposes of having a stay-at-home dad.

    What is the viewership of TMZ? How many heterosexual men do you think frequent that site? The commentators you are talking about cater to their audience which is women. What I find interesting is that the people on this site seem to interpret any social phenomenon solely through their own very narrow personal bias. I can see how this sort of thing might be interpreted by an average-type of girl as demonstrating how even the pretty people are really not that much different than the rest of us. Highly desirable women seem to attract picayune criticism over the looks precisely because they are competing for the highly desirable men.

    Women with more average looks than Hewitt probably never see this sort of criticism as they are simply competing for a far lower social status class of males. And men with such lower social status are not nearly as picky because they cannot afford to be so.

  116. Asher, you may not be considered as a romantic partner by lots of women for some random physical features (such as height). We all select for a variety of factors every day.

    HOWEVER, I highly doubt that you have been continually and publicly harassed by women since you entered puberty for your perceived physical endowments or shortcomings. As I have. And, I dare say, as many of the women on this thread have. You cannot imagine the emotional damage that two decades of harassment and abuse by entitled men can do, and I assure you that the men doing the harassing are all heterosexual.

    TMZ is a gossip site that seems to be consciously aiming at the Girls Gone Wild crowd. They’re aiming for young people, men and women, which of course means that they’re privileging an f-ed up straight male perspective. The myth that straight men aren’t consumers of pop culture is… just that. You are. They’re aiming for you with this shite and assuming that I’ll tag along because I’ve been cowed into compliance by decades of abuse.

    I call bullshit on the whole enterprise.

  117. A gossip site is not exactly common faire for the average male, so I fail to see how this has anything to do the the corpus of the average male sexual. As I can only speak from my personal experience I can assure you that what you are describing is not the formative experience for the vast majority of working and middle class men.

    No, they much prefer delivering their assessments of the female form out car windows, in schools, in groups, at the office, on the street, in bed, etc.

    Sorry, Asher. As much as you want to talk about “assortive mating,” and the relative status of the “males and females” involved, what you’re trying to do is pretend that straight men don’t engage in critical comments about female bodies, or that the women they’re discussing can’t actually hear them, or something.

  118. Men will stop assortively mating by physical appearance when women stop assortively mating by social and economic status

    Yeah, because all women do that. I know that any man who wants to date me first has to show me a bank statement and a written affidavit signed by three of his most popular/cool friends, testifying that he is not, in fact, a socially inept loser, but is rather a financially and socially stable individual who will look good on my attractive, intellectually-achieving arm.

    Yup. That’s how us successful (or supposedly successful) women choose mates.

    Can this meme die now, please? Maybe Asher can’t find a woman because he’s an asshole who thinks we all choose based on money. Oh, wait. I’m sorry. He’s a Nice Guy who thinks that. My bad.

  119. I met and fell in love with my husband back when we were both equally broke. Maybe I’m not really a woman!

  120. Rose, I did not mean that fat shaming was rooted in fears about health. I meant that it is rooted in fears about being as fat as people whose health really has been compromised by their weight. JLH takes heat because it is too scary to even contemplate the people in my husband’s ER whose penises are innys due to their weight. But what I’m wondering is whether that is the true dynamic psychologically – fear about oneself. Maybe it works in tandem with a desire for social control, like zuzu says, but isn’t the burning desire for social control so often the result of fearing one’s ability to control oneself? People are so anxious to distance themselves from the truly obese that they resort to shaming Brittany and JLH – I guess that’s my working hypothesis.

  121. If fat shaming is rooted in fear, it is the fear of harassment and public humiliation suffered by women of all sizes on a daily basis. Of course, they’re not the ones doing the harassing, so I’m going to agree with ‘social control’ theory instead. If you can find me a woman of any size whose body has never been criticized I will move to the isolated island she has obviously been living on while the rest of us have dealt with this shit.

    Believe me, 400 pound people do not factor into my complicated feelings about the subject of body-image and fat generally. We do not all work with your husband and his experience is not common.

  122. Notice the MRA response over at Sacks website:

    effectively:

    “Yes, you’re absolutely right. Can you stop blaming us for this crap, please? Oh, and Hewitt is hawt.”

  123. Could it be possible that women are blaming straight men for gay men’s objectification of various parts of the female figure. As a straight man, that strikes me as particularly unfair.

    Did you even READ any of these comments? Straight men Do ridicule and objectify women’s bodies. Please seek out my last comment, SarahMC’s comments, and comment 32.

    Men will stop assortively mating by physical appearance when women stop assortively mating by social and economic status

    You know what? Fuck you. Fuck you sideways and fuck you twice. I’m a woman and I don’t give a shit about money or social standing. I’m sick to death of people like you dragging out the “oh, but women marry men for money!!!” argument every time someone challenges your gender’s bad behavior.

  124. The words “keep women in line” give the impression that you think this is yet another patriarchal conspiracy designed to oppress women.

    Let’s give credit where credit is due.

    Women buy those tabloids that show these types of images far more than men do.

    Women buy Vogue and Cosmo far (far, far) more than men do.

    Women are rewarding an industry for giving them what they want. Women enjoy seeing the destruction of other women.

    As for men you should really look at men’s magazines and compare the body weight and health of the women in there compared to that of Cosmo or other fashion magazines. Men do not like the Auschwitz look and never have.

  125. The words “keep women in line” give the impression that you think this is yet another patriarchal conspiracy designed to oppress women.

    I didn’t use the words “patriarchal conspiracy,” but I see Glen did. And yes, it is. But where you’re falling off the rails is in your insistence on thinking that by “Patriarchy” we mean “Men.”

    As for men you should really look at men’s magazines and compare the body weight and health of the women in there compared to that of Cosmo or other fashion magazines. Men do not like the Auschwitz look and never have.

    That’s swell, but that’s not really the point. The point is that conformity to one standard or another — and that standard is always thin, always young, even though how thin or how young may change depending on the preference of the observer — is policed via shaming and/or reward.

    And do you see what you just did there? You policed via both shame and reward. JLH is just fine to you — reward. Those women with the “Auschwitz look” need to change — shame. Those men’s magazines you point to as some kind of bastion of enlightenment and acceptance have their own standards. I bet you’d howl if you saw Beth Ditto naked in Maxim, for instance.

    As someone in the Times of London article about Nigella Lawson said, it’s not really about the size at all; weight is just a convenient stick to beat women with.

  126. So, many things to respond to . . . first, why is harassment anything special? For the record, I am a very “pretty” man and when I’m a on a job with fellow sub-contractors I constantly get highly sexual comments directed toward me at first. After a while the guys realize that I’m just another working guy with an exceptionally gracile face for a man and it stops after I ignore it for several week (I can provide photos if you like). I can also assure you that constant rejection over shorter than average height and an income below the top quartile is far more emotionally taxing than being the subject of sexualized comments. I experience both; you do not. What you would also not be aware of is that in all-male working environments there is very little talk about women at all regarding what men find hot. The most common line of conversation involving women goes along the lines of “man, i really love her, but I sure would like to get laid more” in reference to a wife or girlfriend. If men aren’t making hyper-sexualized comments about women when they’re only around men I find it hard to believe that all of a sudden they’d be making them around women. That’s just not plausible.

    This also brings up a side note that, while there are some women who do place a fair amount of emphasis on looks, it is far less important that it is to men. I have an extremely attractive face and also happen to have a sister who is commonly mistaken as my twin. Trust me, her looks are far more valuable to her in the mating game than mine are to me. If I were a woman, with this face, I’d command a very high status male. Women may appreciate a man with a pretty face but it is of low value when it comes to choosing a long-term relationship.

    And about TMZ all you do is babble about “priviledged” male discourses. C’mon the Frankfurt School and its derivatives are really quite passe, so let’s knock off this postmodernist jargon junk. Is TMZ or is TMZ not catered toward young females? You simply seem to think that there is some structured totality out there that infuses “male privilege” into every cubic inch of human reality. In which case arguing this is pointless, as everything you say will be nothing more than a manifestation of your original thesis exempt for any empirical criticism.

    As for shaming and all that I would offer that I have had women directly reject me for making about the same amount of money as them. About 4 months ago I was told “that’s just not enough”. Has any of you recently been told that “I wouldn’t date you because you’re too fat?” I have a very large amount of female friends and I hear hours of conversation about their dating lives and I’m quite certain I’d have heard a rejection of this sort.

    While this may be an anecdote I’m the eldest and have 3 younger brothers and 3 younger sisters. We are all very close, with good communication and share out personal experiences with each other.

    If you sat us all down together and asked us whether or not the average man treated the average women worse or vice versa the answer would be instantaneous. And unanimous. The average woman treats the average man far more shabbily than the reverse. I have asked my sisters this personally and the answer was “it’s not even close”.

    What you all conceptualize as “The Patriarchy” is nothing more that an intellectual abstraction of what are the observed results of female sexual selection. Sexual selection takes place on the Y-Chromosome, so if you want to change the world change your sisters, and yourselves.

    As for the “nice guy/asshole” comment I’d just point out that I’m not the one losing their composure here.

  127. http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove

    That link is to a sex advice columnist named Dan Savage, who is politically active and a gay man. In this column he describes a little experiment he did where a gay man wrote in about his boyfriend who’d gotten quite out of shape and who he no longer found sexually attractive. Savage’s response was basically that he’d eventually have to come out and tell the guy, in love, or that he’d probably wind up drunk and cheating. In this column, Savage reported that the first column received numerous responses from women telling him that the right choice was to be up-front and tell the guy the truth and then try and sort things out.

    Several weeks later a straight guy wrote basically the same letter about his wife and Savage gave the same advice. This time, however, his female readers (and even many males) responded with howls of outrage, and opined that the guy needed to offer his unconditional love.

    In this final column I’ve linked to Savage laid out his experiment. Basically for females, it’s okay for a man to receive criticism regarding his physical appearance but not okay for a man to offer such criticism to a woman. Hypocrisy, thy name is feminISM.

  128. Asher, unable to address the points made by people above, has just tried to change the subject instead. To a scientific experiment carried out by… Dan Savage. Must be more important than everything we silly little women have said.

  129. In this final column I’ve linked to Savage laid out his experiment. Basically for females, it’s okay for a man to receive criticism regarding his physical appearance but not okay for a man to offer such criticism to a woman. Hypocrisy, thy name is feminISM.

    Yeah, there’s no cultural or historical background there or anything.

  130. What you all conceptualize as “The Patriarchy” is nothing more that an intellectual abstraction of what are the observed results of female sexual selection. Sexual selection takes place on the Y-Chromosome, so if you want to change the world change your sisters, and yourselves.

    Um, dude… women don’t have Y chromosomes.

  131. Is TMZ or is TMZ not catered toward young females?

    Considering how many guys chimed in at TMZ to let everyone else know whether they would or wouldn’t “hit that,” I’d say a fair chunk of the audience there is straight males.

  132. I saw very little “points” to which to respond, although I did gather that the term “fuck you” is no longer the purview of working class men. What little substance I found garnered the response I gave. Hey, you can only do so much with a multi-party, meandering rant.

    In case you haven’t noticed,this entire post and comments mainly consist of anecdote and personal experience. That’s fine as far as it goes but it leaves little to work with in a systematic and point-by-point manner. Since we are operating in an ad hoc and flow of consciousness environment it does not seem at all appropriate to throw in random tidbits that at least touch on the topic of body shaming.

    If it is possible to draw out a coherent thread from this post it is that TMZ is a website that has engaged in body shaming towards JLH. The logical response is to ask what this has to do with your average straight male. And the primary fulcrum of evidence would be whether or not this is a site frequented by said males, which I’m quite certain it is not. Of course, this sort of request for a logical presentation of empirical evidence is usually met by some assertion of overarching, gestalt male privilege that pervades every narrative (yeah, I can riff with the postmodern cant, too).

    Arguing with feminists, much like Creationists, is like playing Whack-A-Mole. You hammer down one argument and the next one pops up; you hammer the second and a third pops up. Hammer the third one and the first one pops up again. Not very productive but, hey, at least it’s entertaining.

    But you’re confused. The problem is not silly, little women. There are plenty of serious, intellectually rigorous women abounding in today’s world. They’re just not feminists.

  133. Yes, women don’t have Y-Chromosomes, men do, which is precisely why sexual selection, which is female, takes place on the Y-Chromosome. X selects for Y.

  134. One more thing is that the human genome project is coming down the pike and it’s going to hit most -isms like a freight train. One contributor at a genetics-oriented website opined that “Genomics will do to leftism what Darwinism did to Christianity.” And I would say that leftism, there, is a good proxy for feminism.

    Genetics. Is. Coming. And. It’s. Going. To. Hit. You. Like. A. Hammer.

  135. Do you think Genetics (TM) will be some great new diet book, or will it be a drink like Zima? Or Red Bull?

  136. No one “wants you back in the kitchen”. The problem is that there is a biological baseline that limits the array of human social and economic arrangements. As women have evolved to seek out a mate with higher economic and social status than them, when you have economic/status parity you’re going to have a bunch of women who will refuse to mate with a large number of men. This is a serious problem.

    What’s amusing is that the men they will shun are not the high-powered alpha males, which the feminists rail against, but the average working guy. There may be some social arrangement that can reconcile these evolved traits in the human species. But so far the feminist movement has been completely silent as to how society might make this happen, and so the advancing marginalization of huge numbers of lower-status males in the mating market advances apace.

    Meanwhile, the feminists are bleating about two vulgar men criticizing the appearance of a hugely rich and successful woman on a website that is surely frequented by young women.

  137. Who are you talking about? Look around you. All kinds of everyone are married to all kinds of everyone else. You might feel put out because you don’t have a super-model on your arm, but I assure you the rest of us have partnered up quite satisfactorily, if we chose to do so.

    There are women in the world who marry for status. What the hell, patriarchy is hard for some people to resist. It isn’t a huge proportion of women and they usually aren’t feminists. You might want to go find a board full of them and peddle your wares there instead.

  138. Everyone else… sorry about the heteronormativity in my comment above. By married, please know that I mean ‘partnered with’ and please assume that I’ve included every possible kind of romantic/familial partnership possible between consenting adults.

  139. Shorter Asher:

    Biology is destiny! Femininism is ignoring the menz! Poor menz! They must be maintained at the top of the social hierarchy!

  140. This is a great post. I am also conflicted about her need to state the size 2 size for the record. I applaud J. Love for talking back, but I’ve noticed that all the entertainment mags and morning show talk show hosts are now leading with how crazy this all is because she is sooo tiny. “She’s a size 2! How dare they pick on her?” Yes, in some ways that stresses just how insanely off-balance the Hollywood scales are, but it also reinforces the standard. Would she have made a point to announce her size if she were a 6, 8, or a 10? And would the ridicule of her body have been deemed outrageous enough to make headlines?

    Her statement is a mixed message of offense/defense (though I do believe she had good intentions). It reminds me of when the tabloids ran similar beach photos of Tyra Banks. She went on her show and told all the haters to kiss her fat ass. She just happened to make that impassioned speech while wearing the same bathing suit she was photographed in, thus proving that her ass was not so fat after all.

  141. Hmmm. This kind of rant usually comes from a guy who hasn’t gotten just the kind of woman he wants, i.e., a supermodel. So he blames his lack of status, and not, say, his less-than-sparkling personality.

    Asher, hon — not a whole lot of social stratification in gatherer-hunter societies, which are the oldest known form of human community. If indeed there were a biological imperative to only mate with higher-status males, those societies wouldn’t have survived for very long, would they? And yet they still thrive, just as they have for millions of years.

    I did gather that the term “fuck you” is no longer the purview of working class men.

    You really fancy yourself an expert on working-class men, don’t you? Just a bunch of pottymouths who’d never be able to get a woman if women weren’t kept to a lower status than themselves, according to Asher. Rather a dim view, don’t you think?

    Tell me, is social class genetic? Cursing?

  142. If it is possible to draw out a coherent thread from this post it is that TMZ is a website that has engaged in body shaming towards JLH. The logical response is to ask what this has to do with your average straight male. And the primary fulcrum of evidence would be whether or not this is a site frequented by said males, which I’m quite certain it is not. Of course, this sort of request for a logical presentation of empirical evidence is usually met by some assertion of overarching, gestalt male privilege that pervades every narrative (yeah, I can riff with the postmodern cant, too)

    .

    I think it was met with a request that you read the comment thread on the post in question, which was in fact dominated by straight males. You don’t read very well, do you?

  143. A very psychologically-interesting process (as far as introspection goes) is learning to have a bright and open personality as a low-economic-status male, and really LIKE women for their good points and perhaps like women in general, when you understand you don’t have the high-social-status cues that are going to generate sexual attraction in the certain subset that like that sort of thing. Personal growth is a very twitchy business. Not feminism’s problem, though.

  144. Yes, Eurosabra. It is possible that I’m genetically predisposed to select for men who actually like me. I’m afraid Asher comes out on the wrong side of that equation and it makes me so very sad.

  145. And do you see what you just did there? You policed via both shame and reward. JLH is just fine to you — reward. Those women with the “Auschwitz look” need to change — shame.

    First you are upset at the patriarchy for shaming JLH for getting fat. And now you are upset at me (men) for “shaming” anorexic women?

    (Men are allowed to have and state a preference. Is it now your goal to take that right away from us as well?)

    The problem here isn’t men or some ethereal and I believe false perception of a patriarchal conspiracy. The problem lies in the fact that one of women’s powerbases lies in their sexuality. For women, beauty equals power. And women do their best to look beautiful not because men want it but because they are in competition with women.

    Women starve themselves because they want power. Being thin is hard to do and if you can be thin then you set yourself apart from all the other women. Men didn’t make that rule–women did.

    And women who can’t be thin and aren’t beautiful like to see that those other “beautiful” women who were born with better genetics than they have aren’t so perfect after all. That has nothing to do with men.

    You’d like to frame this debate as yet another ploy to “keep women in line” when the reality is it’s just another power struggle that women deny they have and yet fight for nonetheless.

    The problem with feminists is you are always looking for external reasons for your problems. And that is so patriarchal of you.

  146. And do you see what you just did there? You policed via both shame and reward. JLH is just fine to you — reward. Those women with the “Auschwitz look” need to change — shame.

    I want to address this statement from another angle.

    Instead of having a rational and fair discussion about gender issues for the last 50 years women have instead been shaming men for to get what they wanted, and they have been rewarding them when men follow in lockstep with their views.

    Now you claim the “patriarchy” is doing the same thing when it comes to women’s bodies.

    My response is, “What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.”.

  147. Biology is destiny! Femininism is ignoring the menz! Poor menz! They must be maintained at the top of the social hierarchy!

    Isn’t it ironic. Women care little for the struggles of men and yet have this sense of entitlement that we care for their struggles.

    Frankly, how can one achieve equality for women while ignoring the needs of 50% of the population?

    If one reads the book Animal Farm they will get their answer. Women want equality for all, but women are more equal.

  148. She is definitly beautiful… But hardley a size 2. In the US she would most likely be a size 9. Which Marilyn Monroe was, by the way. And Marilyn is considered one of the most beautiful women who ever lived- and she was never rail thin.

  149. JLH still hotter than what most of the idiots taking pot-shots could pick up in a bar. TMZ has the maturity of a 3-year-old. Anybody seriously thinking this girl is bigger than an American 2 is delusional. Little people can jiggle too. Most American women who are tiny yet still jiggle are looked up to. That’s exactly why guys were drooling over her. She is recently engaged and I’m sure her fiancee loves every inch. Anyone who engages in internet shaming of others for their bodies seriously needs a life. In my eyes, the internet shamers just show how pathetic they are by their actions.

  150. I thought science was supposed to be purely objective, so it’s interesting that a man is stating conclusions ahead of the final results which happens to be white men are the owners and definers of reality.Everyone else is a deluded fool thinking that they are experiencing reality but only a deviant unnatural version of it. Nice to see unemotional objectivity (it’s genetic to men!) in action.

    Of course he hasn’t noticed that science has already busted feminism when mainly male scientists said that sane women could not be trusted to know their own bodies and actions, most feminists sided with science. You didn’t notice that did you? ‘Cos that doesn’t fit your predetermined theory. It would be nice if the ism destroyed could be ‘scientism’ but I have my doubts.
    I know scientists are supposed to invent everything they note, but aren’t genetics already here?

  151. Well, I just finished a whole six-pack of Genetics (TM) and I can tell you that Asher’s past talk of hammering points home to feminists is really starting to make me want to go out and select wealthy Y chromosomes for spawning.

  152. Asher, you have no argument. You’re just puking up anecdotes at us and telling us that they’re somehow more valuable than our anecdotes.

    I have seen women rejected by men based upon their appearance. A friend of mine is on the larger side (though not obese by any means) and I’ve heard men make very rude comments about her weight and name it as a reason they wouldn’t date her or “tap that”. I myself have heard shitty things from men about my appearance. I’m very thin and get all kinds of “body like a ten year old boy” remarks. Not from girls, not from women. From. MEN.

    I have personally never seen a woman reject a man for his lack of money or social standing. Take a different friend of mine: She’s on her way to becoming a psychologist and will probably be making quite a bit of money very soon. Her boyfriend wants to be a mechanic and lives in what most people would refer to as the ghetto. She doesn’t care, money isn’t important to her.

    Anecdotes, anecdotes, anecdotes. You have them, we have them. Why do you think yours trump everyone else’s? The fact is, all men are different and all women are different.

  153. Nice to see unemotional objectivity (it’s genetic to men!) in action.

    Wrong. It’s learned. Men, who have done the hard back breaking labor in farming throughout history and in the industrial age to provide for their families and who had to fight kill and die in wars to protect their homes didn’t have time for conveniences like self-pity and personal feelings.

    We made those sacrifices and suffered those deprivations so that our women and children didn’t have to. And our reward is to be called criminals and oppressors by selfish and ungrateful women who have their own twisted and false view of history.

    You disgust me.

    Here’s a prime example of how women think and treat men.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sHSCJ8tALI

    Women would never stand to be treated the way they treat men. Which is why the dehumanization of men is so critical to the feminist movement. If we are just unthinking unfeeling beasts it’s OK to hurt and abuse us.

  154. Oh, Cavan. Really? Arguing from television commercials?

    That’s the big genetic hammer that’s going to fall?

    Hahahahahaha. Pathetic.

  155. Cavan you need to get on message, the highest rationality is innate to men, I know ‘cos they told me so. What are you a woman?

  156. i very much agree w/ this post, but if you look at the photos, theres no way shes a 2. its disheartening that she feels she cant say her real size, which is probably like an 8 or something.

    Oh, no, no, no. Maybe you think that because too many women do lie about their size. Since the camera does add a few pounds, it’s possible that Hewitt could be mistaken for a 4, but I even doubt that.

    By the way, size 8, for many women, falls into the realm of an “overweight” BMI.

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