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The duplicitous female maze

That line comes from an article in today’s New York Times, and no, it’s not a quote from some MRA talking about divorce laws, or Bill O’Reilly sounding off about Hillary. It’s a piece by a woman named Kelly Valen about her brief membership in a sorority in college. Since it’s about a woman’s experience, it’s of course in the Sunday Styles section between an article about the Hello, Kitty! vibrator and an ad for thousand-dollar purses.

Valen recounts an undergraduate trauma: she was raped while drunk at a frat party and then drummed out of her sorority afterwards. Her rape was part of a “ledge party”, where a bunch of men watch from the window ledge while one of their brethren has sex with a woman inside.

Ledge parties weren’t merely tolerated in the fraternities — they were rewarded with knowing winks and backslaps. But my date had crossed a line: Apparently the fraternal code of ethics only approved of the performances when the girls were conscious (albeit still unaware they were being watched).

Valen’s rapist apologies to her and to his brothers (to his brothers? Huh?) but that’s not enough. The fraternity responds by blackballing the guy, who drops out of school. And no, it didn’t occur to anyone that this was a criminal act; Valen says “we simply didn’t think of it that way”.

And then Valen is blamed by her “sisters”.

Branding the incident my fault, they said I deserved my fate and further complained that I had brought shame upon them all. They laughed at me, gossiped some more, then distanced themselves. I was dirty to them — and dirtier to myself.

Eventually they toss her out, sending her back into the dorms to live among the great unwashed.

It’s not surprising that this incident has haunted Valen, that she finds herself shaken and in a “morbid funk” after running into the ringleader of the sorority in a Gymboree twenty years later. But it’s not groups of men who make her anxious these days, it’s the specter of what she calls “group female intimacy”.

In the two decades since, I’ve been a full-time lawyer, a working mother and a stay-at-home mother. In each role, I’ve found my fears about women’s covert competition and aggression to be frequently validated: the gossip, the comparisons, the withering critiques of career and mothering choices. We women swim in shark-infested waters of our own design. Often we don’t have a clue where we stand with one another — socially, as mothers, as colleagues — because we’re at once allies and foes.

What a grim, painful image of the society of women. There’s a lot of pain in this story, and it makes me sad and angry at the same time. I’m not really angry at her, but at the box so many women find themselves inside. Set up by the patriarchy to see other women as rivals, to build status by getting the “best” guy, to accept misogyny and abuse and even rape as the cost of doing business and living in the world. It’s hard to be direct and authentic with each other when we can’t be direct and authentic with ourselves. The messages about how we’re supposed to act and look and shop and work raise our kids are so overwhelming that it’s easy to lose who we are, really.

And part of what makes me so sad about this article is that it reminds me of my own experiences.

Thank God, I’ve never been raped, but there were years of my life when I would have agreed with Valen about the menace of being with women in a group. For me the sorority house was a summer camp bunk, where I spent four years as the misfit fat kid with no athletic inclinations, a ridiculously adult vocabulary and a remarkable lack of social skills. At least once a summer some girl would pretend to be my friend only to turn around and use the information she’d gained to taunt me. It’s not surprising that in high school and college I had mostly male friends. There were girls in the mixed groups I hung out with, and I actually had close relationships with my roommates my last two years of college, but I would no more have joined a sorority than I would have jumped off the roof, even if there had been sororities at my college. There was a Women’s Center, but I never once set foot in the place. My advisors and mentors were men; my professional role models were men. I didn’t identify as a feminist, in large part because I couldn’t identify with other women.

That all changed for me in medical school and residency, when I realized that my experiences were deeply different than those of my male classmates, and I saw the inequities in the ways women were treated as patients and as professionals. I began to identify as feminist during my third-year OB/Gyn rotation,  and began to seek out women as mentors and friends during residency.

Valen asks

how do we help our girls navigate the duplicitous female maze? How do we ensure that they behave authentically, respect humanity over fleeting alliances, and squash the nasty tribal instincts that can inflict lifelong distress?

and all I can say is: make the patriarchy visible. Speak your own truth about the ways in which misogyny has marked your life and connect with those who hear you. Have empathy for the women who support the status quo, who are in their own way reacting to social pressures, but don’t accept their judgments of you – or of themselves. Hold real pride in who you are, in the strengths and talents of your body and mind. It’s a lot to ask, and most days I fall short, but I am deeply grateful that as I keep working at it I am in the company of women.


69 thoughts on The duplicitous female maze

  1. how do we help our girls navigate the duplicitous female maze? How do we ensure that they behave authentically, respect humanity over fleeting alliances, and squash the nasty tribal instincts that can inflict lifelong distress?

    I’m trying to teach my son (age six) that people have a right to disagree with him without being worried about getting hurt – with fists or words. If you disagree about how to play a game keep it about the game. I tell him that trying to hurt your opponent physically or by making fun of what they look like, or calling them stupid, etc. is “cheating.” I think what it comes down to is that we need to teach our children that it is not o.k. to dominate other people. Anyone else have ideas?

  2. Great post.

    Since it’s about a woman’s experience, it’s of course in the Sunday Styles section

    I FUCKING HATE that the NYT does this!!!

  3. Set up by the patriarchy to see other women as rivals

    Jealousy and hatred of the successful among them is characteristic of any low status group, cf. “acting white”. I would say the mere existence of the patriarchy motivates women to act like that, not that the patriarchy wants women to be constantly squabbling, backbiting, and accusing others of benefiting from favoritism. (Similarly, does the middle class really want the underclass to take drugs and gun each other down in the street?) Women I’ve known who’ve worked in all-women workgroups have told me it’s intolerable — of course, they might have told me that just to curry favor with me, a patriarch junior grade 🙂

  4. That makes me sad, too, because it’s a sentiment I’ve heard often (particularly when I was part of an all-women group, colorguard) and understand. It’s taken as fact by many men (and women) I know that women can’t get along in large groups, but the problem is not women, it’s patriarchal social structures, that pit women against each other as rivals on the marriage market. It makes me sad because the implication is that all women are bitches whose “nature” it is to hate other women.

  5. I would say the mere existence of the patriarchy motivates women to act like that, not that the patriarchy wants women to be constantly squabbling, backbiting, and accusing others of benefiting from favoritism. (Similarly, does the middle class really want the underclass to take drugs and gun each other down in the street?)

    Surely you’ve heard of “divide and conquer”? If the underclasses are squabbling amongst themselves for crumbs, they’re not organizing.

  6. “Patriarchial social structures that pit women against each other as rivals on the marriage market” ?

    I hate to break it to anybody, but women have been rivals with each other (and men rivals against each other) on the “marriage market” – that is, the reproductive market – for, what, 100,000 years or so?

    Patriarchy shapes the conflict, decides where the battles will be fought, and classifies one set of participants as being special and privilege vis a vis other participants. But patriarchy didn’t start the war; that’s biology. Develop the most utopian equalist society, where everyone is a valued human blah blah blah, and you’re still gonna have boys and girls fighting it out (metaphorically) to date the football captain or the alpha nerd or the smokin’-est cheerleader or whoever.

  7. If the underclasses are squabbling amongst themselves for crumbs, they’re not organizing.

    Well, yeah, but if they’re knocking over banks and fighting in the streets, they’re not sitting back quietly and being profitably exploited, either. The point is that the oppressive system doesn’t want this specific outcome because it isn’t in the system’s interest, so “the evil system wants it this way” isn’t really an intelligent explanation of the phenomenon. Men are the primary beneficiaries of patriarchy, but men don’t benefit from the women in our lives being in high-conflict situations with each other all the time. Patriarchal men may want to see women divided and isolated, but they don’t want that to go too far because when it does it makes the lives of patriarchal men unpleasant.

    Now maybe patriarchy causes that anyway; just because you don’t want something to happen as a consequence of your choices doesn’t mean that it won’t happen. I didn’t mean for three people to get killed when I robbed the bank, I just wanted the money – but they’re still dead because of my robbery. And so it’s fair to blame the criminal for the deaths, but it isn’t really helpful to say that “criminality” caused them because “criminality” likes to see people dead in the street. “Patriarchy” is a similarly unguided missile.

  8. Such things can only be blamed to a degree. When does it become men or women are just acting that way because they are fuckwits?

  9. Set up by the patriarchy to see other women as rivals, to build status by getting the “best” guy, to accept misogyny and abuse and even rape as the cost of doing business and living in the world.

    After some pretty horrific girl-group experiences of my own, I figured out years ago that women act like that because we’re taught there isn’t enough to go around. (The word “patriarchy” was not in my vocabulary in seventh grade. :p) We’re taught there aren’t enough “nice guys,” we’re taught there aren’t enough “jobs for women” — that merit alone won’t get you want you want. Guys are never taught that there aren’t enough “nice girls” or “jobs for men,” and while plenty of them do resort to the sort of underhanded tactics women unfortunately use against each other all too often, they don’t think of it as necessary the way so many women do.

    And everything you suggested, Jay, about making the patriarchy visible, is right on.

  10. I can completely relate to this fear of other women in groups– as a child I attended an all girl’s summer camp and had the time of my life until A Certain Age, when cattiness and malice seemed to blossom from a void in space. My tentmates and then my entire “tribe” decided I was a lesbian and stole my things, filled my sleeping bag with shaving cream, and constantly made a point to keep me an outsider and laugh at me. Through junior high, high school, and still into college I have a hard time relating to young women in groups. There’s still cattiness, and a dynamic I can’t quite grasp or embrace.

  11. It took me a long time to find a group of women friends with whom I’m comfortable. And every one of us had previously been mostly friends with men.

    Me, too. I wonder why this is?

  12. I know nothing of sororities, but having listened to a few ex-frat-bros bragging over the years, the first thing I told my daughter when she went off to college was that all college girls should defensively think of frat boys in the same category as crackheads: dangerous amoral scumbags to be avoided and shunned at all cost.

  13. Jay, can you clarify your reaction to this article? You say that you’re “not really angry at [Valen]” but that you are angry that she was “set up by the patriarchy to see other women as rivals … to accept misogyny and abuse and even rape as the cost of doing business and living in the world.” I don’t get that from this article at all.

    Valen experienced a rape and then was victimized a second time by the women who should have been her support network. “Accepting misogyny and … rape as the cost of …living in the world” seems to be more consistent with what the author’s sorority sisters did in reframing her rape as “sluttiness”. If anyone in this situation is quietly accepting patriarchy, it isn’t the author.

    My wife had a similar experience in college: she was raped by a male acquaintance,and then was ostracized by all of the women in her social circle for daring to label what had happened. She still feels more comfortable around men, in part because she feels most women judge her for having been raped. Women who respond to sexual assault with ostracism and judgment aren’t simply victims of patriarchy, they are also active perpetrators. To ask a rape victim to be the bigger person and respond with “empathy to women who support the status quo” puts the onus on the wrong person.

    I apologize if I’m misunderstanding your argument.

  14. It took me a long time to find a group of women friends with whom I’m comfortable. And every one of us had previously been mostly friends with men.

    Me and all of my female friends, three!

  15. It took me a long time to find a group of women friends with whom I’m comfortable. And every one of us had previously been mostly friends with men.

    My experience has been the same. A big part of that for me, however, is that everything changed as I got older and the women I met did as well. Part of it is simply reaching maturity; a 30-year-old is going to be more well-adjusted than someone in their early 20s.

    Also, I’ve finally learned how to spot the kinds of women – and men – who are toxic, and not let them be part of my life.

  16. the first thing I told my daughter when she went off to college was that all college girls should defensively think of frat boys in the same category as crackheads: dangerous amoral scumbags to be avoided and shunned at all cost.

    Probably some of the best advice you ever gave her. I hope you followed with a footnote, explaining that frat boys graduate (or flunk out) and then become harder to spot. But even if they’re 30+, 40+, without the Greek characters on their T-shirts and bumper stickers, they’re thinking never develops beyond the mind of a sophomore college boy.

  17. That’s terrible, having to go through all that, rape and then being shunned by people whom she thought were her friends.

    This was familiar with me a little if only because, looking back on all the television and movies that I’ve seen, this catty attitude, of women talking about women behind their back, innuendo and rumours being spread, was very very wide spread. It’s an attitude, or a cultural norm, that’s continued in much of the entertainment I’d seen.

    I never experienced it myself, being a male, although man, you could be ostracized for daring to be anything that wasn’t considered Manly, like reading books and showing up to class early.

  18. Since it’s about a woman’s experience, it’s of course in the Sunday Styles section

    Not only is it in the fashion and style section, but it’s also under the category of “Modern Love”.
    I wish I was kidding.

    Not that I disagree with the assertion that gendered editorial decisions are made (there are plenty!), but “Modern Love” is a long-running NYT column about modern relationships (platonic, familial, romantic, etc.) that frequently features male authors and male experiences as well.

  19. From my perspective, what stands out about her story is not the ‘maze of women’ but what bastions of suckitude and violence and criminality the greek system is/was/remains.

    A twenty year career in higher-ed has only confirmed what I already thought I knew in highschool. For the most part (individual exceptions noted beforehand) the college/university greek system in its modern incarnation in the U.S. has metastasized into something vile and toxic. If I became queen of the universe tomorrow I would eradicate them/it without hesitation or sympathy.

    As for the rest of her story – and the milder versions shared here – I read them as though from a vast, stellar distance.

    I have always been surrounded by a large, supportive multi-generational community of women and when one girl or woman has been a shit to me personally, it hasn’t meant anything about *women* – only that that particular one was a shit.

    And even when – in, say, middle school, I found groups of shrieking girls potentially terrifying (geeky, socially awkward fast to get boobs tweener girl that I was then), boys qua boys seemed no refuge at all.

    They were smelly and gross and thought farts were more funny than anything other than making fun of girls. Or they were grabby and gropey and from much further away than mars. In any case, they were certainly quite dismissive of anything I valued or cared about – and not nearly appealing enough for me to pretend to value what they did.

    My mother, my sisters, my aunts and grandmothers and cousins to the nth degree all kept me from confusing my same age cohorts with the limits of possibility. And geeky girls and artsy boys were my refuge. Then and ever after, though with time and maturity my circles got and keep getting wider!

    Now that my RL is sailing through some very sharp hair pin turns, it is my circle of women friends of many different generations and my sisters and my aunts who are supporting me.

    From safe inside a world of women, stories like these of having only male friends sound so lonely.

    I know that can only sound patronizing – and I don’t mean it that way – just, I don’t know, still as always amazed at how different life experiences can be even when on the surface they have so much in common.

  20. It took me a long time to find a group of women friends with whom I’m comfortable. And every one of us had previously been mostly friends with men.

    I would like to speak up and say this is NOT my experience. At all. I’ve always had close female friends. When I was mercilessly teased in early middle school for being ugly, dressing funny, being too smart, etc., it was both boys and girls doing the teasing. In college, I lived in a group of 8 friends, 6 of whom are women, and we had the closest, most loving relationships I’ve ever experienced in my life. There was no cattiness, there was no harmful gossip. There were occasional small disagreements about whose turn it was to do the dishes.

    I say all this because I really, really don’t want to reinforce the stereotype that women can’t be friends with each other, or that we’re all “like that.” That’s one of the many reasons that article made me sad, and that a lot of the responses to it make me sad too. I don’t want feminism to be about women who dislike other women finding each other. (Not that that’s what any of you who had this experience are saying, but I’ve seen it get twisted that way in the past.)

  21. From my perspective, what stands out about her story is not the ‘maze of women’ but what bastions of suckitude and violence and criminality the greek system is/was/remains.

    Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes

  22. Josh, thanks for your clarifying questions. I struggle with being relatively concise in my posts and thus elide much of what I mean to say.

    You say that you’re “not really angry at [Valen]” but that you are angry that she was “set up by the patriarchy to see other women as rivals … to accept misogyny and abuse and even rape as the cost of doing business and living in the world.”

    No, not her. I feel other women in her stories are acting on their sense of women as rivals. I agree with you that I don’t hear the author saying that at all, but I think that describes one of the underlying forces driving the behavior she’s responding to.

    Valen experienced a rape and then was victimized a second time by the women who should have been her support network. “Accepting misogyny and … rape as the cost of …living in the world” seems to be more consistent with what the author’s sorority sisters did in reframing her rape as “sluttiness”. If anyone in this situation is quietly accepting patriarchy, it isn’t the author.

    And that’s exactly what I meant to say – that the sorority sisters accept rape as the cost of living as women in the world, not that Valen did. Unlike your wife, Valen didn’t name her experience as rape – she’s pretty clear about that in the piece, I think – but I get the sense that more people knew about it than knew about other “ledge parties”.

    I didn’t mean to suggest that Valen should be the bigger person, nor that she should be the one to show empathy for her sorority sisters. She was indeed victimized twice, and it’s clear that the betrayal of the women cut her much more deeply. My comments are more in response to her question at the end – how do we teach our daughters to look past cattiness and backbiting? I find it easier to manage conflict when I can muster some empathy for the other person, but that doesn’t mean victims of abuse should have to consider the feelings of their abusers.

    Hope that clears up some of what I meant, and thanks again for asking.

  23. I’m with Betsy here – the reinforcing of stereotypes is rarely responsible or helpful. And I wonder if we could apply the same principle to sororities and fraternities. I was never ‘Greek’ (at my school at least, it always struck me as an eccentric, perhaps even silly, system) – but enough of my friends had valuable experiences in that system that it makes me cringe to hear that the Greek system is a bastion of suckitude, or (more egregiously) that any fraternity member is amoral and comparable to a crackhead.

    On a similar note, might the pejorative term ‘frat-boy’ (to denote immature or misogynistic behaviour or attitudes) have outlived its usefulness?

  24. I’m another woman who has mostly male friends, although I’ve always had female friends as well. I’ve had no experience with cattiness or ostracism to make me prefer men, since as an Asperger person I probably wouldn’t be able to tell I was even being ostracized. No, it was just that there tended to be more men than women interested in the things that interested me, although there were usually some women too, who also became my friends.

    I also identify strongly with the masculine role, besides having stereotypically “masculine” geeky interests (I’m both a geek and a jock, so I get the boy’s-club mentality on both counts), and am mostly attracted to women, so I have an unusual degree of common ground with guys. What I’ve done in the past, and work hard to avoid now, though, is going on to decide that since I like x, and x is culturally tagged “masculine,” then women who like y instead are shallow, vapid or somehow Other. There’s an awful lot of cultural subtext that puts men’s and women’s stereotypical amusements on different planes, with the trivial things that preoccupy mostly men privileged over the trivial things that preoccupy mostly women, and for a woman with “masculine” interests there can be a strong temptation to go for the easy brownie points and affirm the inherent superiority of memorizing baseball stats or the effects of the various kinds of Kryptonite over, say, knowing what your “season” is and how to match clothes and makeup to it.

    I also wonder if there might not be some kind of self-reinforcing feedback loop at work here, when women who don’t fit a conventional feminine mold retreat from female society and hang out with men, instead of also seeking out the other women like them. I get that in a lot of communities, the social scene might be small enough or homogeneous enough that there *are* no other women like them, but especially on a college campus that ought not to be the case. I think Valen overreacted when she avoided all women, when it was specifically sorority women who hurt her.

  25. I used to go around all the time saying “I don’t like women.” I didn’t have the phrase “tools of the patriarchy” in my vocabulary then, but that’s essentially what I meant — people who happened to be female who’d swallowed the standard bullshit line about how female people have to look, act, and interact with others, hook, line, and sinker.

    I never acculturated very well, so I have relatively few of those traits, which takes a lot of people by surprise. I used to hang out with a mixed crowd in elementary and high schools, but the majority of my friends were probably guys. I’m not sure whether that’s still true or not, but I suspect it is. I honestly haven’t paid much attention.

    Part of the problem there is that I don’t fit in very well with “women’s culture” — a lot of the things I care about and like are strongly gendered masculine in this culture, so if I gravitate towards people who share my interests, they’re going to be majority male. I also don’t care about a lot of traditionally feminine-gendered concerns at all, in terms of my personal life. (I do care about their political ramifications.) That right there cuts me off from a huge subset of “women’s discourse” in this culture, which, when combined with my liking for “guy things,” makes me a real outlier…

  26. Jay — sorry to misunderstand; what you said makes a lot more sense. And for what it’s worth, I agree that the women involved in ostracizing my wife (and the author) do deserve empathy, (although not necessarily from her.)

    The ex-sorority sister who approached Valen sounded like she was looking for forgiveness; my wife had a similar experience with the woman most responsible for ostracizing her after her rape. The role of social-boundary-monitoring-queen-bee must ultimately weigh pretty heavily on the conscience.

  27. I say all this because I really, really don’t want to reinforce the stereotype that women can’t be friends with each other, or that we’re all “like that.”

    Sharing a personal experience is just that: personal. Saying what happened in your own life has absolutely nothing to do with categorizing an entire gender as “all like that.” Your personal experience was different than some others. Period.

    That it took some of us time to find a strong network of female friends does not even remotely imply that women can’t be friends with each other, for the record. After the same people mentioned that they now have female friends, it is nonsensical to suggest this.

    I can’t change my individual circumstances; so don’t tell me that I’m reinforcing stereotypes by discussing the reality of my circumstances. It’s insulting.

  28. “On a similar note, might the pejorative term ‘frat-boy’ (to denote immature or misogynistic behaviour or attitudes) have outlived its usefulness?”

    Jeff, ask us again in a few years when Peznint Frat Boy is hiding in Panama. Personally, when the frats around here stop setting cars on fire and rape-drugging friends of mine, I’ll stop thinking of them poorly. Until then, I’ll still question what crackhead thought that putting a bunch of green, callow and easily peer-pressured barely-adults in a house together and pouring booze over them to see what happens is a good idea.

  29. We’re taught there aren’t enough “nice guys,” we’re taught there aren’t enough “jobs for women” — that merit alone won’t get you want you want. Guys are never taught that there aren’t enough “nice girls” or “jobs for men,” and while plenty of them do resort to the sort of underhanded tactics women unfortunately use against each other all too often, they don’t think of it as necessary the way so many women do.

    Oh my gosh, thank you so much for saying that. I can remember my mother explicitly telling me these things. She said that I needed to be prettier and more feminine if I ever wanted to succeed in life or someone who was those things would always get everything ahead of me. It made me very, very angry as a not-particularly-feminine teenage girl and years later I still get angry when I think about it. And I think you are right on about what this sort of thinking does to relationships among women. But I hadn’t made that connection before.

  30. Since I started it, to be fair about the greek system – it is at its worst in situations where the chapters own their own houses. Where there are no privately owned chapter houses, they become pretty indistinguishable from most other campus student organizations.

    Unfortunately – “frat boy” will continue to be a serviceable term as long as there are fraternity brothers willing to give their organizations a poor reputation by behaving badly in packs while sporting their fraternity logo wear, and the organizations themselves remain unwilling to police and punish the boors who provide the most public face of their organizations. There are also, at least as far as my experience is reflective of common patterns and perceptions, no other campus organizations that so often rely on crude and cruel initiations focused primarily on sexual exploitation – of themselves and of others.

    Do they all? Absolutely not. Is there a distressing pattern to stories like Valen’s? To the handful of male initiation deaths every year? Yes.

  31. I can’t change my individual circumstances; so don’t tell me that I’m reinforcing stereotypes by discussing the reality of my circumstances. It’s insulting.

    I’m sorry that’s what it seemed like I was doing; it is certainly not what I was trying to do. That’s why I said, in the next sentence,

    (Not that that’s what any of you who had this experience are saying, but I’ve seen it get twisted that way in the past.)

    But obviously that didn’t change how my comment felt to you, so I apologize.

  32. I really don’t believe that women are cattier or more competitive than men. I deeply resent whatever sloppy social theorist made that up, probably based on a couple anecdotes and zero empirical investigation. Of course I haven’t participated in every possible demographic, but of those I’ve experienced, men are absolutely as judgmental or unforgiving or catty as women. They are also probably as generous, open-minded, and caring as women. I think the entire theory of women’s judging and competing with each other is a nasty myth that gets unthinkingly reiterated and propagated without any second thoughts, and that the propagation of that myth is harmful to women and like many other fields, devalues what they say or do relative to men.

    People compete with and judge each other, and maybe there are average differences in style or tactic by gender, but I agree with those above who attribute these to a patriarchal society. Patriarchy and male-dominated social dialogues say that men competing is competition, it’s good for the economy and all sorts of things, while women competing are just nasty and small. Bullshit.

  33. The fraternity responds by blackballing the guy, who drops out of school. And no, it didn’t occur to anyone that this was a criminal act; Valen says “we simply didn’t think of it that way”.

    I went to college at about the same time the author did (20 years ago now… ack). And sadly, this is exactly the way this was handled. The idea of “date rape” was a very new concept and not fully understood or appropriately applied. If you got drunk at a party and got “taken advantage of” (the term “rape” was never applied to this act) you were considered to be partially or fully responsible because you had lost control. No one ever called the police, and if they had I don’t think much would have been done.

    And while you could generally turn to other females for comfort, and they would comfort you because you felt awful and stupid or dirty, they usually didn’t blame the rapist either. I knew many girls who had similar experiences to the author. It was a pretty common thing to hear about.

    I learned to limit the information I freely gave to other women during this time. Because while the comfort was there, the rolled-eyes and the whispers were also present. Somehow when something like this happened, the victim’s social standing among her female friends always seemed to diminish.

  34. I have also had a hard time making many female friends. Although that doesn’t mean I didn’t always have at any given time, one strong bond with a female of my own age.

    But as a kid, I always was introverted and just never could relate to the things that most girls seemed to find important or interesting. By the same token, many girls didn’t find me and my hobbies very interesting either. I was overly intellectual, read too much and seemed far too friendly with the boys, wanting to play the games they played and simply communicating with them better.

    I always attributed that to a fault of my own, a sort of lack of femininity if you will. In fact, I’d say my marriage (divorce after eight years) and my willingness to be a stay-at-home mom, have three kids, be dependent upon husband, came out of a real need to prove to others that I was in fact, a ‘good and proper’ girl.

    I’m still angry I wasted eight years of my life trying to measure up to a standard that no woman can meet and that has no real reward for self fulfillment at all in the end.

    I still find associating with a lot of woman a very alienating experience. I find this especially true as I have formulated my life’s work around my interests and pleasures, which don’t fit the traditional feminine mode at all.

    Presently and in the recent past, since men are the ones who can teach me the things I want to know and are where I want to be, I tend to stick with them and seek out their trust and friendship more. It is a sometimes problematic relationship and I can’t say I don’t wish I could find more women locally who enjoy or see things they way I do. But I have made the choices I have made and am who I am.

  35. But obviously that didn’t change how my comment felt to you, so I apologize.

    It’s OK — it’s just that we get a lot of concern trolls around these parts; you know, people who tell us things “for our own good,” and they also tend to use disclaimers that are the opposite of what they said. The ambiguity of online comments can obscure intention. For the record, it works better if you say something more like “wow, A’s terrible; but my own experience has been B.”

    I wonder how much the nurture side affects how we function in relationships? I grew up with two brothers who I was close to. I’m close to my sister as an adult, but when I was a kid, not so much. I also had a terrible relationship with my father, though, so I wonder how would that fit in…

    I think there are probably many other women who had similar experiences to me and those like me with relating to other women, but we just didn’t realize there was common ground until later in life. I know I feel a lot less like a freak now that I know it isn’t just me.

  36. Despite growing up with a male sibling and spending much of my childhood playing mostly with boys, my friends have *always* been women. In fact, I can safely say that I have never developed an independent friendship with a man–and by “independent,” I mean a friendship that developed outside of the context of that man being a girlfriend’s boyfriend/husband. Some of those men are still very good friends of mine, even now that the relationship(s) have ended. But I am not now, nor have I ever been, comfortable around men. They make me extremely nervous–to the point of *fear* when I was younger. (My therapist makes a lot of money from these fears…::sigh::)

    While I’m fully aware that women can be catty and shallow, that hasn’t been my experience. Oh, sure, I’ve had one or two toxic friendships, but most of those can be put down to the other person’s toxic personality and my own stubbornness.

    Such things can only be blamed to a degree. When does it become men or women are just acting that way because they are fuckwits?

    This comment really said what I was thinking about this story. I can see the patriarchal context, but I think there comes a point when we have to stop blaming “the patriarchy” and recognizing ravening bitchery for what it is. Some people are assholes. Period. And people in groups become even bigger assholes, b/c their assholish tendencies are reinforced by those around them.

    Even allowing that the patriarchy is to blame for the mindset that these women had, it still does not excuse them from their responsibility not to be evil bitches. And, yes, I stand by that term.

  37. I think the entire theory of women’s judging and competing with each other is a nasty myth that gets unthinkingly reiterated and propagated without any second thoughts, and that the propagation of that myth is harmful to women and like many other fields, devalues what they say or do relative to men.

    Absolutely – like so many other things, behavior that is accepted or even prized in men is criticized in women, and used as an excuse for further marginalizing women. There are certainly men who have had horrifying experiences with groups of other men but the men who bully, abuse and ostracize them aren’t called “catty”, and that sort of behavior isn’t assumed to define all male groups.

    There’s nothing simple or straightforward about this phenomenon. When women like Valen are targeted by a sorority, or awkward girls like me are treated badly by a camp bunk full of girls, we relate our own personal experiences to the stereotype and thus reinforce it. This cycle is damaging to everyone involved.

  38. I don’t think this behavior – cattiness, gossip, ostracizing other girls – is something that can, or should, be defined as a female trait. I think that it is definitely an individual behavior.Not every group of women would behave in this way. I am personally in sorority and while there is gossip and not everyone is *BFFs*, I know that the women in my sorority would never, ever ostracize a rape victim. On the other hand, the more I hear about my little sisters’ group of friends, the more I worry about my sisters either being hurt by them in some manner – rumors, ostracism, just plain meanness – or becoming like them. I don’t believe that the cruelty Valen suffered was created by the patriarchy, though it went hand in hand with it, I think it was the cruelty of a group of girls who were either individually mean, or so weak-minded as to just go along with such awful behavior.

  39. From my perspective, what stands out about her story is not the ‘maze of women’ but what bastions of suckitude and violence and criminality the greek system is/was/remains.

    I can vouch for the this not only as someone who had to deal with the consequences of Greek instigated drunkenness and vandalism on a regular basis as a young professional in several neighborhoods, but also as a student who was asked and turned down the dubious “honor” of pledging to an underground fraternity (Fraternities, Sororities, and any elitist organizations other than academic honors societies have been banned at my college since the 19th century).

    Never understood the appeal of drinking oneself into oblivion and acting like a big immature baby among other babies and paying for the dubious privilege.

    This account only confirms the validity of my choice so many years ago…..which wasn’t too difficult as the Greek System in general was highly disdained by the college’s student body as a haven for insecure approval-craving non-academically serious students.

  40. It did not have to be that way. I went to to a womens’ college 20 years ago. We have a brother school. The hall advisors did extensive no means no training, and worked to inform incoming classes about what real consent is. There was no Greek system on campus. I’m not saying no one was ever raped, but even the rumor of what happened to this woman would have resulted in armageddon for everyone involved, including the watchers. Then I went to a big public law school with an undergraduate school that had a huge greek system. The student hand book had a paragraph on rape, suggesting that women be sure about ‘what they want’ before going on a date. Institutions full of young people can do a lot to create a supportive culture where rape is not tolerated, and where women do not apologize for it for fear of themselves being shunned by the all powerful greeks, who can make or break a woman’s reputation and social standing by merely spreading around that she is a ‘bitch’ or not pretty enough to be is such and so house. If these women had supported the victim, they’d have to call out the men the depend on for their own status. It’s all very clubby for the men to ‘punish’ one if their own, but if the victim’s chapter had instead called the cops and gone on a hunger strike until the perp and his ‘brothers’ got arrested, they too would have put their popularity on the line. If this had happened at my school the perp would have essentially feared for his life and hoped the cops found him first. Naturally, people were a lot better at not committing rape.

  41. On a similar note, might the pejorative term ‘frat-boy’ (to denote immature or misogynistic behaviour or attitudes) have outlived its usefulness?

    Not as long as Chimp-Boy is in the White House.

  42. My experience has been pretty much the exactly opposite, at least since high school: I’ve always had a strong network of female friends, beginning with my dormmates in college and continuing to my household members in a medieval re-enactment group. We’ve fought and bickered, yes, but we’re all still friends, and all the junk about competition for men, petty gossip, and so on really hasn’t been a factor.

    One possible factor: I went to a women’s college. Without men in our classes and our housing, by and large we didn’t have to deal with “looking pretty for the boys,” competing for the all-important Saturday night date, and generally playing into the stereotypical male-female patterns. I didn’t learn how “to play the game,” and I still don’t with my female friends 25 years later.

    I wonder if this is true for other women’s college graduates?

  43. this is obviously horrifying and brings up, on a different scale, my own experiences with male and female friends that have been raised in many of the comments.
    but leaving that aside, my daughter’s 4th grade teacher was quite insightful when dealing with some girl on girl bullying lately. she said that she is concerned with giving the girls doing the bullying tools to make themselves feel good about themselves without having to put other people down. that they are learning how to navigate relationships with other people, and using put downs and thinking they are better than others is the easiest way to feel good about yourself, but that she wants to teach them all ways to do that without putting others down.
    i found that fascinating in that i had never thought of it in those terms.

    (and yes, there is obviously a dynamic with the boys as well, but this was dealing with some specific issues)

  44. What I’ve done in the past, and work hard to avoid now, though, is going on to decide that since I like x, and x is culturally tagged “masculine,” then women who like y instead are shallow, vapid or somehow Other. There’s an awful lot of cultural subtext that puts men’s and women’s stereotypical amusements on different planes, with the trivial things that preoccupy mostly men privileged over the trivial things that preoccupy mostly women, and for a woman with “masculine” interests there can be a strong temptation to go for the easy brownie points and affirm the inherent superiority of memorizing baseball stats or the effects of the various kinds of Kryptonite over, say, knowing what your “season” is and how to match clothes and makeup to it.

    I really want to thank you for saying this, and articulating it so well, because it’s something that I’ve noticed that annoys me.

    I realize there’s a certain amount (more than a certain amount) of general social acceptability involved when a woman pursues stereotypically feminine interests, so I’m not trying to say that other women criticizing them for it is the central issue, but it still bothers me. Especially, and you said it in a way that made me realize it, the way it ties into “Girl stuff is stupid.”

  45. To true, some of the most traumatizing relationships I’ve ever had have been with other women. Part of my trust issues stem from several experiences in college/high/junior high school involving female friends and the males who came between us.

    Then again, one of the best experiences I’ve ever had was with a group of women. I honestly regretted leaving the fabric store, not so much because of the job, which I enjoyed, but because I would miss those women.

    As sad as it sounds, I am wary of any new person I meet, whether male or female. Men because they tend to be larger than me in physical terms and women because, while men can hurt my body, women can scour my soul.

  46. On both the “frat boy” stereotype and the rhetorical question in the post about the rapist apologizing to his brothers–maybe this is, in fact, something we should condone, not condemn. I think it would be a pretty powerful force for change if men, in groups, held the individual members of the group responsible for maintaining standards of decency, instead of excusing them on the grounds of “brotherhood”, and if asshole guys had to apologize *to other men* when they act like shits to women. Not in lieu of apologizing to the women they act like shits to, of course (and the whole “ledge party” thing obviously makes this particular situation fucked up, regardless of whether his brothers stopped the rape, kicked him out, or demanded an apology). But there’s a lot to be said for men holding other men to standards of treating women like human beings.

  47. On both the “frat boy” stereotype and the rhetorical question in the post about the rapist apologizing to his brothers–maybe this is, in fact, something we should condone, not condemn.

    I really do not think we should condone a view of rape as a crime against other men. It was not okay when rape was considered as a crime against the men who owned the raped woman, and it is not a significant improvement for a rape to be considered as an act of discourtesy against the men who happened to be watching it. Rape is not a violation of any man who is not himself a rape victim. Those men did not own a share in the victims’ dignity and bodily integrity. Inasmuch as rape is a crime against society, rapists are accountable to all of society–NOT just their fucking “brothers”. If random asshole frat guy has to apologize to the rest of his gender when he mistreats a woman, he has to apologize to you and me, as well. I am no less a rapist’s peer and equal because I don’t have a dick.

    and if asshole guys had to apologize *to other men* when they act like shits to women.

    That notion makes me feel pretty queasy.

  48. the first thing I told my daughter when she went off to college was that all college girls should defensively think of frat boys in the same category as crackheads: dangerous amoral scumbags to be avoided and shunned at all cost.

    Probably some of the best advice you ever gave her. I hope you followed with a footnote, explaining that frat boys graduate (or flunk out) and then become harder to spot. But even if they’re 30+, 40+, without the Greek characters on their T-shirts and bumper stickers, they’re thinking never develops beyond the mind of a sophomore college boy.

    I find this a rather distasteful and prejudiced thing to say. I wasn’t a “greek” in college, but I didn’t avoid frat boys like the plague. A few were honest to goodness NICE guys who didn’t buy into all the BS stereotypes. Of course there were those who thought they were god’s gift, but they were easy to spot.

    Some of the nicest young men I knew in college were greeks (hell I even dated one) who never treated me with disrespect or like a piece of meat. And I happened years later to marry a “frat boy” six years my senior who was by far more mature and gentle than any so-called “man” my own age.

    If anything some of the nastiest people I encountered in college were sorority women. They couldn’t talk to you unless you were in “their house.” I saw friendships torn because friends pledged different houses and were encouraged to alienate themselves from rival house members because that was what you did – regardless if you had friends there. All for the sake of an institutional clique…run by women for women.

  49. I went to an all female highschool and my experiences did not in any way parellel this. Though there were groups of girls that fought and spread rumors and got drunk and did stupid shit, at heart most of them were good people going through a rough period of adolesence, and by the time we graduated I think we would all call pretty much anyone else in our class a friend. (Even though I had approximately NOTHING in common with most of them.) I don’t think the level of conflict seen in my class was different from the level of conflict seen in local all boys schools, and there were considerably fewer bruises.

    Having gone to a university that was blatantly anti-Greek I find it hard to understand why anyone would voluntarily join a greek organizations. There were lots of people that I knew in college who did, and I often found their continued insistence that greek life somehow mattered in any small way to people who were not part of it fairly amusing.

    I mean, Why? Why pay money just to have a group of people who wear the same three letters as you? That is obviously no guarantee that you will like each other or in any way benefit from the group as a whole. If anything I think this woman’s experience is illustrative of the fact that paying a group so you can hang out with them does not automatically make them your friend.

  50. For me, there were many reasons to go Greek, and it wasn’t about the letters, dates, or being popular. I didn’t really date in college and the guys I dated didn’t go to my school. And I certainly wasn’t popular. I’m not rich and I’m chunky…but I’m fun, honest, and smart, all of which my sisters were as well. Our hair color ranged from blonde to purple and our average GPA for my 4 years was usually between a 3 and 4. These women helped each other through so much and we were truly friends. Personally, I joined for the school involvement, the charity work, the scholarships, and the resume builders…the friendship was a much welcome added benefit.

    However, my college does not allow Greek housing (there is one, a frat, who is completely dry and runs the school safe walk – and the men are truly stand up guys…). Our school was fairly small and the sorority, interenational, stressed grades, chairity work, community involvement, and sisterhood. It was fairly strict on a national level and our advisors held us to these rules and regulations. We are a dry sorority and it was stressed NOT to been seen at frat parties where alcohol was involved.

    So, that’s why I joined. And it doesn’t have to be bad…women just need to join for the right reasons (i.e. not partying and finding boys) and pick a group that matches their ideals and values. And yes, I wasn’t best friends with all of my sisters, but I respected them all and could turn to anyone of them with a problem.

  51. I have been looking for a place to discuss this highly disturbing essay.

    In my mind what bothers me most from her piece is her comment that:

    “We women swim in shark-infested waters of our own design. ”

    That is so completely wrong. As if we would design a patriarchy to live in? As if we like having double standards, and little chance for advancement?

    I actually feel bad for this woman, who is now apparently a stay-at-home mother in one of California’s wealthiest, tony-est and whitest suburbs. Given that she still seems to choose to surround herself with materialism, one wonders if she ever will learn from her trauma.

    Perhaps she is describing the shark infested waters she continues to insist to swim in as being of HER own design. She is still punishing herself. She really seems to have issues with misplaced anger. I wish her a great therapist for Christmas.

  52. A few were honest to goodness NICE guys who didn’t buy into all the BS stereotypes. Of course there were those who thought they were god’s gift, but they were easy to spot. Some of the nicest young men I knew in college were greeks

    I’m not surprised that some of them were nice…as individuals. Individuals often are. It’s easier. It takes a certain amount of confidence to be an asshole when you’re standing on your own. But remember the immortal words of Tommy Lee Jones from Men In Black:

    “A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it.”

    People join the Greek system because they feel they need to belong. They need a guaranteed, ready-made social group. If the shit really comes down, if one of those NICE guys has half a case in his belly and his frat brothers are egging him on, will he really back down? Will he ruin the party by getting into a fight with one of his “god’s gift” frat brothers over some girl who drank too much? What if all they want him to do is participate in a “harmless prank” like a ledge party? What if it’s the morning after and the drunk slut from the night before is trying to get them all in trouble by calling it rape when it’s clearly just morning-after remorse? Can your nice guys be counted on to do the right thing then?

    Individuals can be as nice as they like. By definition, frats are packs.

    (hell I even dated one) who never treated me with disrespect or like a piece of meat.

    To your face. And even if they never did, period, that might just mean that you’d been categorized as a “good girl”, worthy of respect. Ever ask them what they thought of the girls who tumbled into bed with them at parties?

    And I happened years later to marry a “frat boy” six years my senior who was by far more mature and gentle than any so-called “man” my own age.

    Some do grow out of it. You may have been lucky enough to find one. On the other hand, you may still be designated as a “good girl”. How does he/did he treat other women in his life? How does he act when he gets together with his frat brothers? Is it still them against the world?

  53. I have always felt more comfortable around other women then men. Men, as a rule kinda make me nervous, I tend to not trust too many. I always had a close groups of female friends, and still count on them for support.

    Now, going to school in The South, there was a stress on Greek life a lot of other demographics don’t understand. I would rather have stabbed my eyeball out then join up, but I had a lot of friends who did. My roommate for two years was ine one, and the horror stories she use to tell me made me want to vomit. She tried to explain once why they didn’t accept women of color, even if they had the balls to rush an all white Sorority. She said there were no other black woman. so if they were the only one, they would feel out of place. I told her if they never accepted one, then they would never accept any. She did not disagree with me. Her sororityies brother frat had a history of date rape. I know of 4 different girls who were raped by them my freshman year. It was so bad they were kicked off of campus (so they moved to a house in a big field. Where literally, no one could hear you scream.)

    the only greek systems I agree with are co-ed educational ones. I’ve seen very little good come out of the other ones.

  54. first of all, i have to say how truly sorry i am to read about the horrific experiences related in this article, and by others here on this board.

    but i want to address this:

    Set up by the patriarchy to see other women as rivals…

    i disagree that “the patriarchy” is the root cause of women being nasty to each other. i think it’s part of our human-ness, something innate. men are capable of, and are, horrible to each other as well, though it usually manifests itself in a different way.

    but i really don’t buy into the notion that we women would be all sunshine & sweetness to each other all the time if it weren’t for the nasty patriarchy setting up false competitions.

    we’re as capable of cruelty as men are, all by our lonesomes. at the risk of sounding all runs with wolves-ish, i believe it’s part of our power, and that it is important that we embrace our shadow side. rather than saying that it’s all the product of our f-ed up society.

    people who work extensively in animal training understand and acknowledge that the female of the species has certain behavoural traits that need to be accepted and dealt with. for example it’s a common truism in the horse world that mares are bitchy & unpredictable. (geldings are preferred by many equistrians). my understanding is that guide dog training programs are also coming around to preferring (fixed) male dogs.

    unfixed male animals have their aggression problems, too, which is why they all mostly get fixed. so i’m not trying to say that females are nastier than males. but that they have aggression & competition behaviours too.

    and we humans are animals, as well, though it’s easy to forget that when we start analyzing ourselves in terms of our complex social structures.

    which isn’t to say that it’s okay for sorority sisters to ostracize another for reporting a date rape! that’s a horrible thing.

    but the root causes for that behaviour, along with petty cattiness & gossip &c, lies in our human nature and not in the patriarchy.

  55. we’re as capable of cruelty as men are, all by our lonesomes. at the risk of sounding all runs with wolves-ish, i believe it’s part of our power, and that it is important that we embrace our shadow side. rather than saying that it’s all the product of our f-ed up society.

    What exactly do you mean by “embrace our shadow side”?

    The way I’m reading it…that phrase has potentially alarming implications of a Nietzschean character. While I try to be mindful and aware of the “shadow side” within myself and others, I would certainly not be “embracing it”.

  56. well, i don’t know really what i mean by “embracing” it. that’s probably not a good choice of words.

    i guess what i’m trying to say by “embrace” is to wholeheartedly and unreservedly accept that it is a part of who we are, and inescapable. i think only then can we learn to understand who we are, and counter the impulses that are driven by our shadow side with compassion and wisdom. which is coming at it from a different place than saying “the patriarchy made me (us) do it”.

    mindful and aware is probably as good a way to put it as any, really. but i think that we are conditioned to not believe or even contemplate that such a thing exists to begin with that it would take some conscious opening up before we could get to the mindful and aware side. perhaps that is what i meant by “embrace”.

  57. Is cattiness “innate” in women or is it a product of patriarchy?

    Or is it both?

    Patriarchy is not something that has emerged recently (although it has certainly manifested itself in new ways recently (e.g. pornography, commercial exploitation of female bodies) or that is exclusive to Western society. Certainly, there are important differences between societies in terms of gender equality and agency; however, in every society youth and beauty, particularly, are traits that men seek in female mates. There is not just a myth of competition for the “best” guy, but a reality of such competition. Putting down or shaming other women is a tactic for improving one’s own relative mate-value, and it is (probably) not a new one. Without protected access to resources, women rely on their looks and femininity to guarantee their wellbeing and the well-being of their children; the stakes are real. In contrast to women, men have the luxury (or burden) of being chosen as mates for other reasons (e.g. wealth, status, ability).

    I am trying to avoid the problematic argument that patriarchy is innately human (as male-dominance seems innate for many other species and female-dominance for some). When women’s rights to health, good jobs, etc. are protected, then women do not necessarily NEED to mold themselves to the preferences of males (although there are many reasons why modern women still struggle with a quest for perfect femininity).

    Not trying to imply that all women are “catty”. Catty is not the right word. Just as men are generally the perpetrators of physical violence, women may tend to use emotional violence in competitions.

  58. mindful and aware is probably as good a way to put it as any, really. but i think that we are conditioned to not believe or even contemplate that such a thing exists to begin with that it would take some conscious opening up before we could get to the mindful and aware side. perhaps that is what i meant by “embrace”.

    Thank you for the clarification.

    I can relate to what you wrote in the quote above as throughout my academic studies, I kept encountering discourse in 19th and 20th century Western European and American history in which each era’s generation, with a few exceptions, believes itself to be more enlightened than the previous ones…which I find problematic as increasing awareness and willingness to discuss and disapprove of cruelty and inhumane behavior does not necessarily signify that we are “more enlightened” as shown in recent domestic and international current events.

  59. women rely on their looks and femininity to guarantee their wellbeing and the well-being of their children

    yeah, that ain’t gonna work. Looks fade (luckily so do males’). I don’t know what feminity means in this context, but if has anything to do with submissiveness, that alone isn’t enough: One of the women I worked with, cute and sweet and the mother of two, finally (as I later learned) found the courage to leave her physically and emotionally abusive husband.

    To hold a couple together you have to have something I will call love for want of a better word. Mutual respect, the desire to be kind to the other person, shared good humor are among love’s characteristics.

  60. From my perspective, what stands out about her story is not the ‘maze of women’ but what bastions of suckitude and violence and criminality the greek system is/was/remains.

    Some of the stories here (and in that article) horrified me. That wasn’t my experience with my sorority or the greek system in college at all. Yes, large groups of women generally annoy the crap out of me because of the drama and conflicts, but I’ve found it’s the same with large groups of *people* as well. The conflicts are just different. I work mostly with men and I enjoy it. I’m comfortable. But I’ve always had close friendships with women and I’m still active in my sorority’s local alumni group.

    I think my point is that some people just suck. Period. It’s not a problem limited to sororities or groups of women.

  61. I’m sorry it took me so long to reply, but I was caught with life offline….

    People join the Greek system because they feel they need to belong.

    That may be ONE reason why people join. However as one person here stated earlier – she didn’t join for the parties or traditional reasons.

    However, don’t all people join clubs/groups/teams to “belong” as well? I don’t see a need to belong as exclusive to the Greek system.

    They need a guaranteed, ready-made social group.

    Well, that may be true for some. However it is not just to paint all Greeks with the same brush. Again, a poster here claimed she joined for her own reasons aside from the run-of-the mill stereotype of why people join.

    I knew some who joined for the job networking opportunities they would have after graduation. I also knew some who felt that they could undertake a leadership role in the organization. For them the partying was just an added bonus.

    If the shit really comes down, if one of those NICE guys has half a case in his belly and his frat brothers are egging him on, will he really back down?

    Well, from experience, the one I dated and the friends I had saw me as a person and not as some object to exploit. In fact I never once witnessed any such event whereby a girl was put in danger sexually (or otherwise) in a social situation because it “was the thing to do” Now that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen in other houses (in fact it did), but when those events occurred in those places…..well let me just say that 3 frat houses were shut down before I graduated.

    Will he ruin the party by getting into a fight with one of his “god’s gift” frat brothers over some girl who drank too much?

    The guys I knew were never afraid to tell off one of their brothers if they were getting out of line. But again, I never witnessed in the circles in which I socialized, such threatening events.

    What if all they want him to do is participate in a “harmless prank” like a ledge party?

    I had never heard of ledge parties until I read this. In fact, quite ironically, it was one sorority that had a sexual hazing “ritual” with their brother frat. The condom and a quarter party. A “sister” sets you up with a random “brother.” She gives you a condom and a quarter before you go off into a secluded room with him. The condom is to protect yourself. The quarter is to make you feel cheap. Charming – I know. Of course, word was that if you DID do something, you didn’t get in to that house for you were too dumb to know the difference between a real ritual and a prank.

    What if it’s the morning after and the drunk slut from the night before is trying to get them all in trouble by calling it rape when it’s clearly just morning-after remorse? Can your nice guys be counted on to do the right thing then?

    Thankfully, I heard of no date-rape scenario that happened in the house that I frequented. I can’t say it never happened. But I never heard of such and the house was never brought up on charges. Ironically, they had some sort of creed that if a girl was TOO drunk and not a brother’s girlfriend (whereby it was assumed sex would be consentual) they advised each other to play it cool and not go too far. I even heard my former BF advise one of his brothers to “be careful” with a girl because if he went to far, and she the next day remembered (or didn’t) events in a negative way he could be in some serious trouble. That all brothrs best take care to not endanger themselves or their group as a whole. My school (after I began) took a fresh new perspective and attitude towards the Greek scene and wasn’t going to tolerate any crap. Like I said – when I left, 3 houses were shut down. A year later, two more fell leaving a whopping total of two houses left standing.

    Individuals can be as nice as they like. By definition, frats are packs.

    Any group can be considered a “pack” By example, as the Frats fell on campus SPORTS clubs/teams began to replace them with the sexual harassment and debauchery. The rugby team was notorious for its parties and escapades…and for their treatment of women. Pack behavior is NOT exclusive to the greek system.

    To your face

    Well, if you know of words being spoken behind my back then you have an insight I am unaware of. Is it possible? Sure. Was I exempt from talking about him? No. especially after we separated? Hell no. Again, no unique behavior here.

    And even if they never did, period, that might just mean that you’d been categorized as a “good girl”, worthy of respect.

    :>) I was in no way a “good girl.” Hell, the sorority girls who detested me because I dated one of “theirs” made up all sorts of scandalous lies about me – including that I had a tattoo of a snake on my boob and that I had been in a porn movie (ahhhh – yes such female kinship and respect for others….). I may have had a tame history compared to some on campus, but I was in no way an angel or “good girl.” I didn’t put up with merde and I expected to be treated decently.

    Ever ask them what they thought of the girls who tumbled into bed with them at parties?

    Sure. And their responses were no different than guys who were NOT frat members who had one-nighters with girls. “It was fun. It’s over.” Was the standard response. I also knew a few women who didn’t hold their male counterparts in such high esteem after such events….”it was fun, but what was I thinking in being with him???” was their standard MO.

    Some do grow out of it. You may have been lucky enough to find one.

    I was lucky, as was my husband, that we found each other. I didn’t know him in college as he was six years my senior, so I cannot comment on what he was like back then. But he does not display any characteristics of the typical frat boy persona.

    On the other hand, you may still be designated as a “good girl”.

    LOL….it’s been so many years since I’ve even had to consider that kind of standing it’s amusing to think some people may still regard me as such – even though the “good girl” I never was….if a friend tells you that if you married in a church the walls would bleed…..does that speak of being a good girl?

    How does he/did he treat other women in his life?

    A fine way to measure how a man will treat a woman is to see him interact with his mother. If he treats her well, chances are he will treat you with respect as well. If he is abusive and disrespectful to her – you can expect that kind of treatment down the line. I say this in the most general of terms, but I have found it to be true for me.

    How does he act when he gets together with his frat brothers?

    They have a blast. Kind of how I have a blast with my college friends when we get together. We have a few drinks, talk and occasionally get rowdy.

    Is it still them against the world?

    Was it ever?????

    I don’t mean to come off negative or snarky here, but I didn’t have the “typical” (whatever that means) experiences with Greeks that others may have. I was a proud GDI (God-damned-independent) and enjoyed having fun with the Greeks and other groups. I never pledged because, like so many here have stated, I found myself more comfortable in groups of men than women. I have since I was a teen. As you may find fraternities “packish” and disdainful, it is how I felt about the sororities. The backstabbing, the bricks through windows, the “special” rules for sisters….frankly I saw it as akin to joining the mob and taking the Omerta oath…noone leaves alive. In their groups there were the nice individuals, but as a group, they would slay you to the core and pledge to make your life as difficult as possible if you crossed them. I had more sisterhood with just a couple female friends than I ever would have in a “house.”

    Your mileage may vary.

  62. Hector B.-
    I feel that you missed the point of my post. Women’s historical dependence on men is not ideal, and certainly not something I am advocating. However, the patriarchy is a fact. I was saying, here’s how I think it works and why I think it’s problematic. The fact that such transient qualities as youth and beauty are used to judge women leads to body-image trouble, degrades networks between women, leads to alienation, depression etc. Like many other posters, I think that the phenomenon of women shaming other women over their sexuality, looks, and bodies derives from their feeling of powerlessness in society, the pressure to compete for resources by competing for men, both using submissiveness and attractiveness and by putting down other women. When a society guarantees women that they will receive equal pay for their work, provides them reproductive control, etc. etc., women’s reliance on men will be reduced, and maybe women can also change the way they interact with one another. I hope we’re moving in the right direction.

  63. rachel — I was not taking issue with your post; just pointing out that the “looks and femininity” strategy was far from foolproof.

  64. ElleBeMe –

    That may be ONE reason why people join. However as one person here stated earlier – she didn’t join for the parties or traditional reasons.

    Indeed. And what she described was vastly different from the traditional “pack ’em all in a house and pour booze over ’em” model.

    However, don’t all people join clubs/groups/teams to “belong” as well? I don’t see a need to belong as exclusive to the Greek system.

    True. And in other groups that demand such total dedication to the group and foster such an elitist mentality, you run into the same problems. Sports teams in particular – although there the drug of choice tends to be steroids rather than booze.

    Still, since the Greek system is such a perfect storm of immaturity, peer pressure, and privilege without any other purpose for their existence (in contrast to sports teams and clubs), they will continue to be held up as the perfect example of all.

    I knew some who joined for the job networking opportunities they would have after graduation. I also knew some who felt that they could undertake a leadership role in the organization.

    So they were looking for elite privileges. So much better.

    In fact, quite ironically, it was one sorority that had a sexual hazing “ritual” with their brother frat. The condom and a quarter party. A “sister” sets you up with a random “brother.” She gives you a condom and a quarter before you go off into a secluded room with him. The condom is to protect yourself. The quarter is to make you feel cheap. Charming – I know. Of course, word was that if you DID do something, you didn’t get in to that house for you were too dumb to know the difference between a real ritual and a prank.

    I’ve heard of those, too. Made me sick. Bear in mind, I’d like to get rid of the whole Greek system, not just fraternities, so this doesn’t really challenge my argument.

    Ironically, they had some sort of creed that if a girl was TOO drunk and not a brother’s girlfriend (whereby it was assumed sex would be consentual) they advised each other to play it cool and not go too far. I even heard my former BF advise one of his brothers to “be careful” with a girl because if he went to far, and she the next day remembered (or didn’t) events in a negative way he could be in some serious trouble. That all brothrs best take care to not endanger themselves or their group as a whole.

    Hmm. Preventing rapes to protect themselves doesn’t impress me all that much…makes me wonder what they’d do if they thought they’d get away with it…but it’s better than nothing, I suppose.

    Assuming the girlfriend was consenting to sex despite being TOO drunk was a bad assumption to make, though.

    Any group can be considered a “pack”

    Not really. Packs demand a dedication to the group, a loyalty to the group and its members above all outsiders and outside interests, a submission of self to the collective, that not all groups share.

    By example, as the Frats fell on campus SPORTS clubs/teams began to replace them with the sexual harassment and debauchery. The rugby team was notorious for its parties and escapades…and for their treatment of women. Pack behavior is NOT exclusive to the greek system.

    True. Pack behavior is not limited to the greek system. But in my experience, the greek system is limited to pack behavior.

    :>) I was in no way a “good girl.”

    Heh. Good for you.

    But I think I was being inexact. You could have been designated “somebody we know, one of us, treat her like a human being” without necessarily being saintly.

    Is it still them against the world?

    Was it ever?????

    In my experience of the greek system? Yes. That’s the whole point.

    Like I said – when I left, 3 houses were shut down. A year later, two more fell leaving a whopping total of two houses left standing.

    This should tell you something. Even if your frat-boy friends truly were the good guys you remember, they were good apples in a barrel full of bad ones.

    The backstabbing, the bricks through windows, the “special” rules for sisters….frankly I saw it as akin to joining the mob and taking the Omerta oath…noone leaves alive. In their groups there were the nice individuals, but as a group, they would slay you to the core and pledge to make your life as difficult as possible if you crossed them.

    Bricks through windows? Huh. The Greeks on my campus limited their vandalism to public property, not people’s living spaces. Mostly.

    Other than that, your experience with the sororities is pretty much my – and apparently others’ – experience with both sides of the Greek system. Heck, as you pointed out, the sororities even found a way to get in on a piece of the sexual assault action. Guess they didn’t want to feel left out.

    Your mileage may vary.

    Oh, it did. It did.

    Two girls in my dorm, First Year, raped by the same guy. His house knew it. Actually nicknamed him “Date Rape Darren”.

    The vendetta will continue.

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