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First, Do No Harm

Jay has an excellent post up about the complexities of abortion, and how anti-choice politics and ideologies compromise women’s basic medical care. A taste:

“Any other pregnancies?”

Such a simple question. She was cuddling her five-week-old, happily describing how much help she had from her ten-year-old daughter. I could tell as soon as I asked that the answer wasn’t so simple. I could tell from the look on her face, from the hesitation as she answered me. I have learned to identify the body language of loss. I made sure I wasn’t clicking my pen, or tapping my foot, or in any other way expressing impatience. I waited quietly, openly, and after a minute she said “Well, I had an abortion a few years ago. And I pray every day to God to forgive me”.

I’m used to that, to women who believe the messages that they have failed themselves and their God by making this most difficult of choices. I’m used to hearing about the grief and guilt and the tears that show up every year on the day the baby would have been born. And no, this doesn’t happen to every woman who has an abortion and no, it’s not “post-abortion syndrome”. It’s the logical result of a traumatic experience brought on, at its root, a cult of motherhood and femininity that serves the patriarchy by demonizing women. I hate it – I am sickened by it – but I’m used to it. It was her next comment that stopped me cold:

“My last doctor told me I shouldn’t tell anyone that, even a doctor. He said I should say I had a miscarriage. But I didn’t, and I figured you need to know the difference. And you’re a doctor. Doctors aren’t supposed to judge people”.

No, they aren’t. Read Jay’s whole post. Doctors who tell women to lie about their past abortions threaten our physical and psychological health — they handicap future health care providers, and they reinforce the idea that abortion is the worst, most shameful thing you can do. Anti-choice doctors, pharmacists, nurses and other health care providers don’t just do harm when they refuse to provide basic reproductive health services; they do harm when they project their ideologies into the care they provide. As Jay says, doctors “can wound with our words as surely as with a scalpel.”

She follows up with another post about the Google searches that have lead people to her blog.

The search string was “can a doctor tell if you had an abortion”. The simple answer is “no”. A doctor doing a pelvic exam can tell if you’ve delivered a full-term baby vaginally, but a first- or second-trimester abortion doesn’t alter the cervix in the same way.

But that’s just the simple answer. Reading the question makes me sad and a little sick inside. I can feel her fear. Maybe she had an abortion in the past and is afraid that someone will find out. Will the doctor condemn her? Will the doctor tell her partner? Her parents? Her employer? Like my own patient, she may already be judging herself, may have been shamed by her culture or by a previous encounter with one of my colleagues. Not all women feel guilty after an abortion; many feel relieved, and many are ambivalent. But women who don’t feel guilty or ashamed don’t want to hide their history from their doctors.

I’d add that this extends to sex and reproduction in general. Women who don’t feel guilty or ashamed about the number of sexual partners they’ve had don’t hide their history from their doctors; women who don’t feel guilty or ashamed of having a sexually transmitted infection don’t hide their history from their doctors; women who don’t feel guilty or ashamed for having given birth and then given that child up for adoption don’t hide their history from their doctors; women who don’t feel guilty or ashamed of being sexually assaulted don’t hide that history from their doctors. Women who don’t feel guilty or ashamed of their sexual histories are able to provide their doctors with a more complete history, and get more narrowly-tailored, effective care.

Imagine what reproductive health care would look like if sexuality was viewed as both a pleasure and a responsibility, without guilt and without shame. Imagine if women weren’t inundated with images of themselves as sexual objects, if we looked outward instead of watching ourselves be watched. If women’s bodies weren’t visual representations of sex itself. If packaged-and-sold sex was trumped by the real thing — and if narrow moralizing and misogynist ideals weren’t hung on the real thing. If women weren’t trapped between Good Girls Don’t and Girls Gone Wild.

Unfortunately, that is not the world we live in. Jay has more on that end. In the meantime, I’m heartened to see responsible physicians like her offering thorough and compassionate care. (And I’ll just throw it out there that holy shit is Two Women Blogging an awesome site).


49 thoughts on First, Do No Harm

  1. blushing and digging toe in dirt Thanks, Jill. The guilt and shame don’t just hamper my ability to provide effective care but are in themselves the root cause of a great deal of suffering. And it was your post months ago about the myth of post-abortion syndrome that helped crystallize my thinking about this.

    One day I’ll write about my OB/Gyn rotation in med school, which was my radicalizing experience as a feminist. It’s a damned shame that we still need you to work on this issue, but since we do, I’m glad you’re in there slugging.

  2. I’d add that this extends to sex and reproduction in general. Women who don’t feel guilty or ashamed about the number of sexual partners they’ve had don’t hide their history from their doctors; women who don’t feel guilty or ashamed of having a sexually transmitted infection don’t hide their history from their doctors; women who don’t feel guilty or ashamed for having given birth and then given that child up for adoption don’t hide their history from their doctors; women who don’t feel guilty or ashamed of being sexually assaulted don’t hide that history from their doctors. Women who don’t feel guilty or ashamed of their sexual histories are able to provide their doctors with a more complete history, and get more narrowly-tailored, effective care.

    In general I agree, but with a caveat – women who don’t feel guilty still might hide these things from a doctor if they have reason to suspect that their doctor might judge them anyway, or provide distant or inferior care if they knew. Sadly, this is the case in many places.

    Also – I think you mean “compromise,” not “comprise,” in the first sentence. 🙂

  3. I wrote about discussing abortion with doctors in one of my first posts on my sadly-neglected blog.

    On the topic of sharing the number of sexual partners, I agree with Betsy. I don’t feel guilty about my sexual choices but I sure feel judged. I had one gynecologist I saw for only one visit (she’s one of the two available to me under my insurance) ask me what method of birth control I was using. “Nothing with my husband, condoms with my other partners” was apparently not an answer that fit with her worldview. She didn’t exactly say anything, but her demeanour changed and she scribbled furiously in my chart. If I have my choice, I won’t be seeing her again, though I know if I need to be transferred from my midwives I’m not given a lot of choice in who I’m transferred to.

  4. I guess this this is off topic, but I really, really want to ask this question.

    Why on Earth do people do things they’ll feel guilty or ashamed of later?

    I know, pleasure. Hard to resist.

    But if you know you’re going to feel guilty/ashamed over a particular action, then [i]don’t do it.[/i] Christ, people. It really is that simple. Have a little ethical fortitude.

  5. @ Mike

    The thing is, the shame and guilt here often don’t come from doing something they had believed was wrong–it comes from other people telling them that they’re selfish and that they’re horrible people. No lack of ethical fortitude there.

  6. And Mike, sometimes you choose the lesser of evils. Faced with an unexpected pregnancy, the choice is often between the shame of abortion (if you have been socialized to believe it’s shameful) and the shame/physical stress/financial stress etc of continuing a pregnancy.

  7. T.J. – I really don’t think guilt works that way. No one can make you feel guilty for doing something you believe is morally/ethically neutral.

    For the record, I’m not arguing that sex/abortion is immoral. What I’m saying is, if you feel guilt/shame, then it’s because you violated your own beliefs – or to put it another way, you gave ground on your own desire.

    Guilt is a sign you’ve screwed up. Don’t do things that make you feel guilty. I know it sounds like I’m a moralistic Bible Belter, but this has nothing to do with “moral laws.” Avoiding guilt is every bit as much a matter of individuality as fighting socio-political power is.

    Dr. Confused, what if everything about us is socially constructed in some way? Then what does it matter what the source of that guilt is? One can and should still avoid it.

  8. Gave ground to your own desire? We’re not talking about a one night stand here, we’re talking about a woman making the difficult choice to terminate a pregnancy she doesn’t want and can’t afford. Women who have conflicting beliefs regarding abortion don’t do it because they want to, they do it because they don’t feel like they have any other options. Actually, a quote from one of the links Jill posted seems relevant here: “A woman doesn’t want an abortion the way she wants a new pair of shoes. She wants an abortion the way an animal will chew her own leg off to get out of a trap”.

  9. Er, Jill, if you’d prefer not to have the conversation move so far away from the op, just say so and I’ll shut up.

    But ethics is never about calculation, right? If you start thinking in pragmatic terms, you’ve abandoned ethics from the get-go. And you’ll probably be in for a world of guilt.

  10. “No one can make you feel guilty for doing something you believe is morally/ethically neutral.”– you’re kidding, right? You ever had a mother? Or an emotion? Guilt is an emotion, you know, as is shame. You can’t logic emotions away.

  11. Alogical does not mean random. We don’t feel guilt at random times.

    Mothers make us feel guilt because they can say we’ve hurt them, and none of us view hurting our mothers as morally neutral.

    Guilt isn’t a sign that an action is wrong – guilt is a sign that you believe your action is wrong. Hand waving it away with some kind of liberal permissiveness is always going to be futile, and will produce “inexplicably” miserable people.

  12. @ Mike
    You say guilt and shame is a sign not that an action is wrong, but that one believes that action is wrong. Ok, you might even be right there.

    But… why do we believe that an action is wrong? Because we know it ourselves or because people we love and trust tell us it’s wrong or because the society we live in believes it’s wrong. That’s exactly the point of Jay’s post. Her patient made a decision when she got that abortion, a most likely hard, painful decision that was, as others pointed out not something she wanted like a pair of shoes, but the lesser of two evils. And she knew it was right for her, but everybody else said it was wrong, she was wrong, she was evil, she was morally corrupt. Her doctor said so, maybe her church. Politcians said so, anti-abortion-people said so. Maybe even some of her family and friends said so. And so she was made to feel ashamed about something that she shouldn’t be ashamed about.

    We don’t live in a vacuum and it is incredibly difficult to believe in yourself when everybody around you says you are wrong. It takes a hugely strong personality to not feel doubt and shame when so many people tell you you did something despicable. Most of us are not that strong, not all the time.

    For you to say that people feel only guilty when they went against their own moral compass makes me think you don’t understand the workings emotions very well.

  13. You can still do something you think is ethically fine and not want other people to find out about it, because you damn well know they’re going to give you a hard time about it, even if you don’t feel a sort of ethical guilt about it. I think what you’re getting hung up on is the difference between feeling guilty about something and having someone guilt-trip you, which is an entirely different phenomenon.

    One resolves into sleepless nights. The other resolves into defensiveness, and more often than not, impotent rage.

    If you’ve never been in the situation of having someone try to shame you for something for which you’re ethically fine with yourself, but other people could see as transgressive behaviour, I suggest you examine your privilege with a fine set of calipers.

  14. I just gotta say– wow. only a man could make that argument. (not many men would, to be fair.) I know so many women who virtually (or even literally) feel guilty for *breathing*. I guess by Mike’s logic the anorexic who feels guilty for eating should keep starving herself, in order to stay consistent with her internalised ethical system. The rape victim who feels guilty and ashamed for being raped should– what? Never leave the house again so that she won’t be at risk? Bar all the windows? Jump off a goddamn cliff?

    I think MIke’s comments are illuminating, in the sense that they are illumninating something interesting and useful-to-understand about privileged thinking. But I’ll be damned if I can analyse exactly what it is.

  15. What I’m saying is, if you feel guilt/shame, then it’s because you violated your own beliefs – or to put it another way, you gave ground on your own desire.

    Oh, give me a break.

    Real life situation here. A mother of two is married to a guy who is serving in Iraq. He comes home for a few months, then he finds out he’s going to be redeployed. While he is home, they have sex, as couples often do, and their birth control fails. Last time she was pregnant, she almost lost the baby, and she spent months on bed rest. Her obstetrician tells her the same thing is likely to happen this time. Only this time, her husband will be overseas, and she has responsibility for a toddler and a preschooler. She doesn’t particularly approve of abortion, but she’s desperate. How is she going to take care of two little kids for three months when she can’t get out of bed? She terminates the pregnancy even though she has ethical qualms about abortion, because she has bigger ethical qualms about neglecting her kids.

    Now, I have no problem believing that you’re just the kind of asshole who would condemn that woman for getting herself in that situation in the first place. But any decent person would recognize that she was choosing between what were, for her, two imperfect options and that she was probably going to end up feeling guilty whether she had the abortion or sent the kids off to live with relatives. Here in the real world, sometimes there are no good options, and you do the best you can and live with your feelings about it.

    I have known several people who have had abortions even though, in the abstract, they thought abortion was morally wrong. They haven’t done it because they were evil pleasure seeking hypocrites. They’ve done it because they’ve faced conflicting ethical imperatives, and their responsibilities to the post-born ended up taking precedence over their responsibilities to something that is, basically, an abstraction. I take it you’ve never been in a situation where you had to make that kind of calculation, and I hope for your sake that you never are. But plenty of pregnant women find themselves there, and they continue to deserve competent and nonjudgemental medical care.

  16. I know it sounds like I’m a moralistic Bible Belter

    Not at all. One need not be from the Bible Belt to be a moralistic, blithering idiot.

    On the topic of the actual post rather than Mike’s attempt to derail the thread: forget doctors. Doctors are not the only people who read your medical records. How about the medical office staff? (Who, in my experience, are generally hired straight out of the front office of Hell.) The nurses? The insurance companies? The people who process your records? Those, by the way, might well include low-wage workers in countries where ‘privacy laws’ are more like well-meant suggestions.

  17. Longtime lurker, first time commenter. This post really hit home to me. I had 2 abortions and then went on to have 3 children delivered by 3 different doctors/midwives. All 3 times have been different.

    I had no guilt or remorse over my abortions but never told the ob/gyn that eventually delivered my first baby. I wasn’t embarassed, I just didn’t feel comfortable telling him. I think maybe it was because he was male and I didn’t feel like having to explain myself to him if he decided to try to pass judgement on me. I, of course, knew why I chose to have both abortions, but I was a young soon-to-be first time mom and the thought of trying to articulate myself to him was very intimidating. He was an ok doctor, but since we never really “clicked” I left the practice after the birth of my son.

    When I was pregnant with my 2nd child I decided to go to a midwife. I was a little older and more confident in myself. When she asked me about past pregnancies I told her the truth. She just asked me what my age was and at how many weeks pregnant I was when I had had my abortions. I believe she asked me some kind of a leading question to see if I wanted to talk about it, but since I was obviously fine with it she let it go and that was the end of it. She was an absolutely amazing midwife throughout my pregnancy and after.

    Then, we moved. I ended up getting pregnant right after the move so I found a local midwife. When she asked me about past pregnancies I told her the truth. We chatted for a little bit and I mentioned that I had been in an abusive relationship. Then she said “Well, we all have things in our past that we regret.” I didn’t really think anything of it and the conversation moved on. She examined me. Then she excused herself from the room. When she came back she told me that although she’d love to deliver my baby she was retiring in the next few months and wouldn’t be around for the delivery. She then recommended that I switch to a colleague of hers at another office. I was fine with that and made the switch although I did think it was odd that her office had even let me make an appointment if she was planning on retiring. The delivery came and went and months later I saw an article in the local paper about how she had just delivered her (whatever # it was) baby and that she was still practicing in the same office I had seen her in with no mention of retirement. I was shocked! I knew then that she had lied to me and that she just didn’t want to be my midwife most likely because of my past abortions. I was extremely hurt, upset, and angry that this woman had passed judgement on me. I guess I should be lucky that she had passed me off to her colleague because who knows what kind of care I would have gotten from her and at least the midwife who I saw thoughout the remainder of my pregnancy was very nice and attentive and my pregnancy and the delivery all went smoothly.

    Well, sorry for the long story. I guess I just wanted to show how much it sucks to try to make that judgement call on whether or not to tell the truth and how the end result can really vary even among “professionals”.

  18. Doctors are not the only people who read your medical records

    Very, very true. When I was a junior in high school, one of my classmates typed in handwritten medical records for a hospital, after school. Then the work was off-shored, first to Ireland and then to Costa Rica. God knows who’s doing it now.

  19. I was raised to be truthful when posed a question from an authority figure. So when asked, I would divulge my “complicated” ob/gyn history. But then I realized that more often than not, the tone of the medical person would take a downturn and I feared that the quality of my care would plummet along with it. So the choice is… divulge the truth and get diminished care (being judged as unworthy of proper care), or hide the truth and get diminished care (not having a complete history). I opt for the latter–doctors often have to work with incomplete/inaccurate history and they are trained for that. I figure that if I’ve got an ankle sprain or a sinus infection, my ob/gyn history is not really an issue anyhow… and they are more apt to help relieve my pain/suffering if they don’t subconsciously feel the need to punish me for my sins.

    I eventually ended up telling my current gynecologist my whole history because I developed a relationship with her and felt that she would handle it appropriately. That took some time, because she is an infertility specialist (I go to her because she is an gynecologist/endocrinologist which is a specialty I need for a separate condition–I’m not currently trying to get pregnant). I figured as someone who focuses much of her attention on helping people conceive, she would be aghast at my history. Quite the contrary, she is absolutely supportive of a woman’s right to choose when the time is right for her.

  20. Guilt isn’t a sign that an action is wrong – guilt is a sign that you believe your action is wrong. Hand waving it away with some kind of liberal permissiveness is always going to be futile, and will produce “inexplicably” miserable people.

    Bullshit. I was shamed as a child for reporting to a teacher/staff member at my school that people were picking on me. I was ridiculed for the particular WAY I was playing, not only by those teasing me, but by the adult staff member. It was creative play, “Let’s Pretend” as opposed to “hit the ball and keep score” play, and it was apparently worthy of the ridicule it received in the eyes of that staff member. Instead of punishing them for teasing me and my friends, she shamed ME for MY actions.

    The fact that I remember this something like 30 years later should be a clue. No, I didn’t feel *guilt* that I was doing something wrong — I knew I wasn’t — but I did feel *ashamed* for playing my game. And I felt ashamed that I brought the teasing to the attention of someone who apparently didn’t think I merited her protection. The line between the “guilt” and “shame” is soft and mutable at best.

    And who do you think *teaches* us these ethics you blather on about as if they were absolutes? Our community. People we respect. They don’t just pop into being spontaneously. While I agree that there are some basics that can be agreed upon, life is made up of a confusing number of shades of grey, and occasionally something that is right for one person simply isn’t for another. Something as personal as previous medical decisions should NOT be up for judgment, whether it’s an abortion or the removal of a plantar wart or anything in between. As far as any doctor should be concerned, it’s DATA. Simply information that can be used to help them make better diagnoses and decisions about treatment.

  21. This is making me think: I was talking to someone about a friend of mine who had died of cancer, and I was saying how especially sad it was because she had just overcome a debilitating heroin habit and rebuilt her life. The woman’s face changed; she made this slightly disgusted expression and said “Do you think the drugs are what gave her the cancer?”
    I said “Hardly. She was a heavy smoker, though, that might have made a difference.” I was needling the woman deliberately; she was smoking a cigarette at the time. If she hadn’t been a smoker I wouldn’t have said that, because she would have been exactly the type to agree eagerly and start getting moralistic about smokers.
    It made me think about this tendency some people have to think illness is some kind of moral punishment for behaviour they disapprove of– or is it that people they disapprove of deserve to get ill? I think that must be one of the motivations for the invention of “post-abortion syndrome.”
    I guess it shouldn’t have surprised me that some medical professionals still have a version of this attitude. But then I’m absurdly naive sometimes. Anyway, this thread has made me decide that if I ever have an abortion I will never reveal it to a doctor unnecessarily. Because, you know, if I get seriously ill and need their help I don’t want them thinking I’m getting a punishment I deserve.

  22. Mike – I’m not going to parse the whole guilt/shame/ethics thing. For the sake of argument, I will accept your premise, that any action that causes guilt violated one’s own moral strictures. I’m simply going to say – have you never, in your life, done something you later felt guilty about? You make it sound so easy. Of course we *shouldn’t* do things we think are wrong. That’s redundant. Why did you feel the need to point that out? “Hey, everyone! If you believe something is wrong, don’t do it!” Uh, no shit. And yet humans, being imperfect, will continue to do so. “Why on Earth do people do things they’ll feel guilty or ashamed of later?” This may shock you, but “pleasure” is hardly the only reason. Most of us are a little more complicated than that. If there was an obvious answer to this question, as you seem to think, we would have fixed our world a long time ago.

  23. The feeling of guilt does not in and of itself define the action for which one feels guilt as an immoral action. A person can become conditioned to feel guilt for actions that are not immoral. Its too oversimplified to say that if you feel guilt, you must be doing something wrong. That doesn’t examine if the guilt is appropriate.

  24. A quick discussion of the anatomy of guilt and desire, psychoanalytic and vaguely metaphysical terms:

    We aren’t all self contained little balls of individuality. Our egos aren’t objects that have some sort of real existence, contrary to what both Ayn Rand and liberal humanists think. Our egos are constructs. They sit on top of an unconscious.

    The unconscious is like having another person inside you. It’s the other, to use the fancy term. There is a split between our ego and our unconscious. Desire is the force that tries to fix that split by finding an object in the world (food, sex, fame, money) to bridge the gap.

    If that all sounds stupid to you, and I guess it might, just think of it this way: desire is desire for some mythical lost object that will make you completely happy. That will fulfill you. You’ll never find the object, but unconscious desire continues to operate.

    Guilt is the sign that you’re backing off on your desire, that you aren’t chasing after what you believe will fulfill you.

    The complicating factor is alienation; not every socio-political situation is conducive to the operation of desire. Desire is already unconscious, and so we only know it from our symptoms; capitalism in particular expends a great deal of effort in telling us what our desires are so we’ll pump money into the system.

    The only truly ethical position is that of desire, and the only true guilt is the renunciation of desire – because desire hurts (and it does, it always does, often in the form of anxiety), or because you’re alienated from your symptom.

    So with all that in mind, specific responses:

    But… why do we believe that an action is wrong?

    Short answer: it doesn’t matter. We only see our selves as through a glass darkly.

    A truly ethical act doesn’t assure happiness; it has nothing to do with happiness. The woman that makes an ethical choice to have an abortion is not going to avoid anxiety. She’ll probably have lots of it. But she won’t feel guilty. If she feels guilty, then she fucked up, misunderstood herself, and shouldn’t have had the abortion.

    Interrobang – Privacy is one thing. Jill’s OP extended it beyond an issue of private information becoming public, though. Telling your doctor about your actions is just not the same thing as printing it on the front page of the newspaper. If you’re too ashamed of your actions to tell your doctor, then you didn’t act ethically.

    Kali – Those women who feel guilty for breathing, are they quiet and subservient and perfect little patriarchal subjects (or trying to be so)? Are they exactly the kind of women that feminism is (rightly) trying so hard to help?

    Sally – The story doesn’t end after the abortion. How’d she feel? And your third paragraph only makes sense if you think you’re responding to a Bible belt moralizing pro-lifer, which I’m not.

    Bullshit. I was shamed as a child for reporting to a teacher/staff member at my school that people were picking on me.

    Shame’s entirely social. Guilt isn’t. I bet you felt worse when you stopped playing the way you wanted to. You stopped playing your own game – that’s what made you feel like shit.

    And who do you think *teaches* us these ethics you blather on about as if they were absolutes?

    You’re responding as if I’m talking about rules. I’m not.

    Of course ethics is hard. That’s why we look up to ethical heros. Go read Sophocles’ Antigone; the woman in that story is one of the greatest ethical heroes ever.

    Why on earth should it be easy to be ethical? Nothing good is easy. Ever.

  25. Mike: have you never faced two conflicting choices where there is no “good” answer? Not up to the level of reproductive decisions, but recently I was faced with this dilemma:

    a) feel guilty about missing my sister’s graduation when she really wanted me to come

    b) go to my sister’s college graduation, with a very expensive plane ticket, miss work when my boss needed me, and feel guilty about putting money on my credit card and letting down my boss

    I chose not to go — my parents and an uncle went and a good time was had by all. I still feel very guilty for not going because I let my sister down and I know she missed having me there.

    How is that hard to understand?

  26. I worked for three years as a counselor at an abortion clinic, and part of my job was the pre-abortion interview in which you answer the patient’s questions, help her decide on a birth control plan and get her medical history. We were fortunate enough to have some people in charge (though not all) who deeply cared about making sure that we were not judgmental, and were all trained in sensitivity. What I found, though, was that we’d go to great pains to be comforting and nonjudgmental, and then some of the doctors would make these absolutely awful comments! And of course when you’re talking to a doctor, whose word on your health is given tremendous authority, it’s very difficult not to take their words to heart.

    It is a big problem.

    We badly need a culture in which women can TALK about their experiences and own them! One in four women will have an abortion during her lifetime– if all of them talked openly about it, imagine how much shame would vaporize.

    By the way, you can buy an ‘I had an abortion’ T-shirt here.

  27. I just recently had an abortion at a clinic outside my home state. The clinic said I could get my follow up care from the abortion at my private OBGYN so I wouldn’t have to drive all the way back there. So I called the office hoping to get an appt in a few weeks well when the nurse asked me why I was coming in I told her the truth and she said well we don’t have any appts for people like you. I am now looking for a new doc which is going to be hard since I live in a very red state. Now I don’t feel bad for my abortion all I feel is relief but truthfully I am sick to death of getting judged for it.

  28. This sort of things scares me a lot. My current doctor is a family practice physician who delivers babies and does gynecological exams as well and she’s absolutely wonderful and I can’t imagine telling her anything that would be met with judgment. She also walked me through the most difficult choice I was ever faced with and helped me decide on the course of action that worked the best for me and my family, ending my pregnancy with my terminally disabled child early. I’ve talked about it here before, but I chose an elective induction of labor just into my third trimester, knowing that my son had minutes to live no matter when he was born. My doctor was fantastic- she sat in a chair in my room during the worst parts of labor and when I was in her office a couple days later with debilitating cramps she made sure to tell me that she thought I did the right thing and that if I needed anything, I could call her. When I have to switch doctors, I’m very concerned about how a new doctor will treat this, but I am probably going to have to tell them because my second birth was in fact forcibly started several times much earlier than it “should” have been and it has the (somewhat slim) chance of causing problems with subsequent pregnancies. It’s really horrible that the people you are counting on take care of your most personal needs could be so judgmental about the decision to have an abortion.

  29. Wow Elizabeth- that is horrible. I am appalled that she actually said that to you. I hope you are able to find supportive care close to home.

  30. Mike:

    Nearly every woman I know who has been raped or molested has felt guilty.

    Also, surely you’re familiar with “survivor’s guilt.” How is surviving accidents that kill others a sign that one has screwed up?

    Your simple pronouncement is not only wrong, but counterproductive. I suggest you apologize.

  31. Elizabeth, if you’re up to it, you might write a letter to the doctor, even anonymously. The staffer may have been freelancing. OTOH, if the doctor feels that way, you could let the abortion provider know so that they can warn his patients not to tell him.

  32. Elizabeth, I second Thomas’s suggestion. If the nurse was acting beyond her authority, she won’t get in trouble for it until the doctor knows. And if the doctor approves of her treating his patients that way, the clinic should know.

    We were fortunate enough to have some people in charge (though not all) who deeply cared about making sure that we were not judgmental, and were all trained in sensitivity. What I found, though, was that we’d go to great pains to be comforting and nonjudgmental, and then some of the doctors would make these absolutely awful comments! And of course when you’re talking to a doctor, whose word on your health is given tremendous authority, it’s very difficult not to take their words to heart.

    Sarah, I find that so incredibly WEIRD. Not weird that people take a doctor’s words to heart more than another healthcare professional, nor that some doctors are frakking jerks, but the idea that a doctor who has CHOSEN to work in an abortion clinic would act like that shocks the hell out of me. I mean, you kind of assume someone who committed enough to do that would have the sense not to be hurtful towards their patients.

    If I may ask, were there any commonalities between doctors who acted that way, such as gender or age? And do you think they meant to put the patients down, or were they simply being deeply insensitive? Not that intentionality makes any difference in terms of the effect of their words on the patient, but you’d think a doctor who, say, thought women who got abortions were sluts wouldn’t be an abortion provider in the first place.

  33. Thanks for the suggestions everyone I will defintely write a letter to the private OBGYN. Thank goodness the clinic I went to is very understanding. They were all I could ever ask for in staffers and a doctor and nurses even the volunteers and escorts were great. I do worry though that the doctor won’t do much to stop this woman cause when I orginally talked to them about getting an abortion the doctor said “even though I know it will save your life to do this procedure and your insurance will cover it, I can’t,” and then wouldn’t discuss it further. I wasn’t even given a referral, I called the National Abortion Federation and Planned Parenthood to find the clinic I went to. Thank goodness for them as well.

  34. Moreover, I notice Mike didn’t respond to my observation/question at #22. It must be because he’s never done anything in his life that violated any beliefs that he holds. Very impressive, Mike. We all applaud you. Nonetheless, it still seems a little simpleminded to me to assert that:

    But if you know you’re going to feel guilty/ashamed over a particular action, then don’t do it.

    Gee, Mike, we’re so glad you pointed this out to all of us. Whatever would we have done without this self-evident admonition? I was about to go kick a puppy, but then I realized I’d feel bad about it, so I decided against. Whew! Close call. Maybe, Mike, in the future you could pull your head out of…the clouds (ahem) and try to have a little empathy and compassion for those less perfect than yourself. And the next time you want to improve others, look for a way to do it that doesn’t alienate everyone around you.

  35. Mike needs to read Miss Manners on shame vs. guilt.

    I am now looking for a new doc which is going to be hard since I live in a very red state.

    Suggestion that you talk to that doctor, either on the phone or in person, first. He or she may have no problem with you, and may have no idea that a stuck-up assclown of a nurse is harassing and insulting patients. “I am taking my business elsewhere; here’s why” may not matter to a doctor who’s a jerk. But it might also result in a shitty nurse being bounced out of her job.

  36. Wow, it looks like I really screwed up the html tags there.

    Amy – it’s interesting that you choose that example – I was in an identical situation last year. My brother was getting married, and I was in Korea. The cheapest flight was $2500.

    I have no idea what you should have done. Like I’ve repeatedly said, I’m not talking about rules or morals. Ethical choices are made without any help from anybody else.

    But was it worth it to choose your boss and your money over your sister? Did you think about the situation in those terms? Because you apparently think that way now.

    Thomas – I don’t really know anything about survivor’s guilt, or rape guilt. I’m not sure what point you want to make, though – do you want to say that guilt and conscience sometimes give false positives? I suppose that’s possible, and like I said, various ideological systems do their darnedest to alienate desire. That doesn’t change what I’m saying about guilt in the context of choices and actions, though. I’d say it’s totally irrelevant, actually.

    Betsy – Your question in #22 isn’t relevant to what I’m saying. Like I’ve said a dozen times, I’m not talking about some kind of moral code here. I’m not telling you that action X is WRONG and that action Y is RIGHT. I’m not Ted Haggard; it doesn’t matter how many times I’ve done X. I’m trying to talk about the source of guilt and ethics, and whatever guilt I carry is my own to deal with.

    Betsy, I brought up guilt because I figured there was going to be yet another endless discussion of guilt and shame without a single word mentioned about ethics. All the liberal handwaving in the world about “liberation” and “tolerance” can’t chase away guilt; only ethical resoluteness can do that.

    Mythago – instead of a snide comment, why not tell me what they say on the matter?

  37. Hey Mike
    You are good at conveniently ignoring things!
    So, about that anorexic who feels guilty when she eats? What shhould she do?

  38. Oh, and this

    Kali – Those women who feel guilty for breathing, are they quiet and subservient and perfect little patriarchal subjects (or trying to be so)? Are they exactly the kind of women that feminism is (rightly) trying so hard to help?

    annoys me deeply. I’m trying not to respond angrily as I know you weren’t trying to be offensive, but you are talking about actual people I know and care about here. No, they are three-dimensional human beings with three-dimensional personalities same as everyone else on the planet. What difference does that make anyway? Some people feel guilty for existing– by your logic, they should stop doing that.

  39. Kali – the women that feel guilty for existing are rejecting their own three-dimensionality, not me.

    Anorexia is a chicken or egg situation, and I don’t know how to resolve it. Do they have their sense of self loathing because they are anorexic, or are they anorexic because they are self loathing? Until you can answer that question, the example isn’t going to help this discussion one way or another.

  40. I wasn’t going to respond further, but of course it helps the discussion in that it proves the statement conclusively wrong, that provoked a lot of discussion in first place.

    You said:

    But if you know you’re going to feel guilty/ashamed over a particular action, then [i]don’t do it.[/i] Christ, people. It really is that simple

    Rephrasing that slightly: if A will feel guilty about taking action X, then A should not take action X.

    The example I gave is:

    Ana will feel guilty if she eats.

    Your logic leads completely and irrevocably to this conclusion:

    Ana should not eat.

    The conclusion is patent nonsense.

    So the original statement is wrong, and also dangerously stupid. Not just wrong, but so wrong a goddamn *computer* could prove you wrong. Christ, Mike, it really is that simple.

  41. Elizabeth, if you haven’t already, maybe the clinic can refer you to a gyn in the area?

    Not that it in any way compares, but even when it comes to weight, some gyn offices can be very judgmental. After my gyn moved, I went to another in the neighborhood. All of those Geddes photos all over the place was my first sign. It’s one thing when they have photos of real kids they’ve delivered all over the place. But those Geddes kids are kinda like Precious Moments figures, they freak me out for some reason. The nurse made comments about the weight & how I should try Atkins & Tae Bo videos (the big weight loss trends that year) & how it worked for her. In this really judgmental, snotty, holier than thou tone.

    Now, I knew I needed to lose weight. I was medically obese. I think a health professional would be negligent not to say something. But it can be done without judging someone. So I ended up going to the other one even though it was less convenient for me.

    She actually took the time to listen about the things I was having trouble with (e.g. finding the time to cook healthy meals & exercise). And in a gentle, non-judgmental tone, made some suggestions which made a lot of sense for me lifestylewise. So far I’ve lost nearly 60 pounds and I think she’s almost as happy about it as I am!

  42. Wow, it looks like I really screwed up the html tags there.

    Oh, punkin, the html tags are the least of the things you’ve screwed up.

    Don’t you feel any guilt at all for judging the people you’ve judged here? After all, only God can really make any judgments about sin and forgiveness.

    On the whole, Mike, I’d say you were someone who gets a whole lot of mileage out of shaming women for their perceived sexual indiscretions, and dressing it up as reminding them of their guilt.

  43. Mike, the point is that guilt is not sometimes a false positive: it is so often a socially constructed false positive that, without knowing more, we can’t say with any certainty that guilt is an indicator that anything actually wrong has been done. You yourself threw up your hands with anorexia: some people feel guilty for doing things, without which they will die. There are a number of situations where guilt is not an indicator of wrong, and you have offered no mechanism to sort out those from circumstances where guilt is an indicator of wrong. To therefore say that people should not do things that make them feel guilty is simply silly.

  44. Ana will feel guilty if she eats.

    I’ve already pointed out that anorexia is a tangled emotional mess. How many anorexics will claim that what they’re trying to be is beautiful? Except what they’re doing is the exact opposite, right? Their stated, conscious goal is to meet some sort of beauty ideal – except I think we’ll all agree that anorexia is pretty darn ugly. And they probably aren’t stupid people; on some level, they know what they’re doing won’t make them beautiful. Their real goal is unknown to them. Their (unconscious) desire is wholly unknown to them, so none of us can really say why they feel guilty. Anorexics have a tangled psychology. The chicken or egg problem still exists.

    Don’t you feel any guilt at all for judging the people you’ve judged here?

    Try meeting me in good faith here. That’s rare on the internet, I know, but surely we can try. You’re not taking what I’m saying about not being moralistic seriously. If you knew anything – anything at all about the way I live my life and the actions I take, you’d know I don’t care one whit about other people’s sexual preferences.

    Thomas, I don’t think you’re understanding me. Guilt is not an indicator of wrong. Morality is historical, relative, changeable. There is no “wrong” as such to be indicated.

  45. I am now assertive enough to not put up with bullshit from people I’m hiring with my money to help me take care of myself. Of course, I also refer to the full back tattoo as the “asshole sorter”. (Apparently when dressed I don’t look like someone who is going to have something like that.) They’re going to see that before they hear my reproductive history past “Gravida 7, Para 3”. If I need the asshole to do something I can’t get anyone else to do, I just say they were first term miscarriages. One actually was.

    But it is hard…there’s so much stigma about saying that you had an abortion, even among people who are very accepting about the necessity of such things. I love that line about “wanting an abortion like chewing a leg off”….I’ll use that sometime. I frequently say that it’s not usually a choice between a good option and bad options. It’s sitting there staring down three options of varying degrees of pretty damn shitty, and not a thing you can do will give you your life back exactly the way it was before you found out you were pregnant.

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