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Now, if you’ll just get the father of your fetus to sign on the line here

Oh, how I love living in Ohio. It gives me such marvelous pieces of legislation! Like House Bill 287. What is this lovely piece of legislative craftsmanship, you ask? A bill requiring paternal notification and consent before a woman can obtain an abortion.

A friend of mine who works for the ACLU sent me a copy of the letter from Representative Adams seeking co-sponsors back at the end of May. Here’s his lovely synopsis of the bill:

1) Prohibit a person from performing or inducing an abortion on a pregnant woman without the written informed consent of the father of the unborn child.

2) Require a pregnant woman seeking to abort her pregnancy to provide, in writing, the identity of the father of the unborn child to the person who is to perform or induce the abortion.

3) Prohibit a pregnant woman seeking to abort her pregnancy from providing to the person who is to perform or induce the abortion the identity of the man as the father of the unborn child if the man is not the father of the unborn child.

4) Prohibit a man from giving the consent required to perform or induce an abortion as the father of the unborn child if the man knows that he is not the father of the unborn child.

5) Prohibit a person from causing a man to believe that the man is the father of an unborn child for the purpose of obtaining the consent required to perform or induce an abortion, if the person knows that the man is not the father of the unborn child.

6) Require the person who is to perform or induce an abortion on a pregnant woman who identifies two or more men as possible fathers of the unborn child to perform a paternity test, or cause a paternity test to be performed, to determine the father of the unborn child prior to accepting any parental consent.

7) Provide that the written parental consent and written paternal identification are confidential.

The mind truly boggles. At the time, I sent a letter to Representative Adams, although I never received a response of any kind:

Dear Representative Adams:

It has recently come to my attention that you intend to introduce legislation aimed at protecting the rights of fathers in the case of abortion. (The original bill was introduced as HB 339 in the 124th General Assembly.) While the bill will do several things, its primary purpose is to require paternal notification and consent before a woman can terminate her pregnancy.

I am writing to you to urge you to abandon this proposed piece of legislation. First, the United States Supreme Court has considered the constitutional validity of spousal consent requirements and found them lacking. In Planned Parenthood of Central Missouri v. Danforth, 428 U.S. 52 (1976), the Court specifically held the state could not delegate a veto power to a spouse when the state itself was specifically prohibited from doing the same under Roe v. Wade. There is nothing based upon the language of your bill which suggests that paternal notification will not meet the same constitutional fate. I implore you not to waste taxpayer time and money (or compromise your own oath of office) in proposing a law that is facially unconstitutional.

Secondly, I am deeply troubled by the fact that you seem to be of the opinion that a man’s right to determine the fate of his potential offspring trumps a woman’s right to determine the same. Whether it is your intent or not, your bill would empower men to decide for women whether or not to carry a pregnancy to term. The Orwellian overtones of such a bill are, frankly, terrifying.

I am confident that it is not your intent to patronize women in this manner, nor is it your objective to put pregnant women at the whim of their sexual partners. However, I am not sure what other conclusion will result from your proposed legislation. In healthy relationships (sexual, romantic, marital, and otherwise), men and women already communicate the facts of pregnancy and proposed termination to each other. In circumstances where they do not, it is not the province of the legislature to intervene. It seems the height of arrogance to assume that a man’s right to know somehow overwhelms the right of a woman to bodily integrity.

It is indeed regretful when a man and woman are unable to agree on what to do in the event of an unwanted pregnancy, but attempting to legislate paternal consent is not a solution. I can only hope that you will please reconsider your bill and abandon your efforts to gain co-sponsors.

Sincerely,

etc., etc.

And as if the legislation were not bad enough, there’s the matter of the press coverage.

Several Ohio state representatives who normally take an anti-abortion stance are now pushing pro-choice legislation – sort of.

Led by Rep. John Adams, a group of state legislators have submitted a bill that would give fathers of unborn children a final say in whether or not an abortion can take place. “This is important because there are always two parents and fathers should have a say in the birth or the destruction of that child,” said Adams, a Republican from Sidney. “I didn’t bring it up to draw attention to myself or to be controversial. In most cases, when a child is born the father has financial responsibility for that child, so he should have a say.”

First, let’s be clear: there is nothing pro-choice about this bill whatsoever because it operates to give men complete and total authority to decide whether or not their partner may have an abortion. It’s not encouraging choices, it’s encouraging either (a) nothing at all because people in healthy relationships already talk about unplanned pregnancies or (b) abuse and manipulation. Let’s guess which is more likely. I’m not unsympathetic to the idea that would-be fathers should have some say in reproductive decision making,* but “a say” cannot be veto power. (Edited to add: you can talk all you like for as long as your partner is willing to discuss it, but the decision belongs to the person whose bodily autonomy is in question.)

Thank goodness we’ve got a liberal governor in office.


145 thoughts on Now, if you’ll just get the father of your fetus to sign on the line here

  1. You cannot legislate good relationships by force. You cannot make couples talk to each other if they do not already and you cannot make children trust their parents. You only make bad situations worse by bringing the force of the law into it..

    Since when did conservatives start to believe that more bureaucracy interfering in your life was a good thing?

  2. I have a question: is it only PR that keeps the pro-choice community from pointing out the obvious (that this law is unenforceable and would likely be immediately sidestepped with massive and well-organized fraud) when it comes to garbage like this? I get that a lot of people want to maintain the moral high ground and all, but why not get aggressive with shit like this?

    Why not come right out in a press conference and say “We will not tolerate a law like this, we will not follow it, we will violate it on the first day it is in effect, we will do so both publicly and privately, we will cover our tracks and destroy our evidence when we do not choose to make an instance a test case, we will drag your names through the mud, we will make you look like fools, we will take this to the courts, and even if we lose we will not stop.” Is it a desire to look less extreme? To be the white hats? Is it a genuine respect for the rule of law?

    I’m not trying to be flip here, I honestly don’t understand why responses seem to be so tepid to stories like this. I’m a man who will never be directly effected by the abortion debate (meaning I’ll never be pregnant) and I’m so angry hearing about this bill that I’m just a click or two away from forming a lynch mob.

  3. Tch. Are they going to do DNA testing to determine if it’s really the father signing on the line? Are they going to hire investigators to determine if the woman is lying? Will they be questioning all the men she’s been seen with in the past few months? What will be the penalty if she’s caught in the lie?

    What a colossal waste of taxpayer’s money that would be (not to mention a fascist invasion of privacy on a huge scale), and it seems yet another example of the pro-forced pregnancy crowd failing to think about the logical consequences of their laws.

  4. Are they going to do DNA testing to determine if it’s really the father signing on the line?

    If they’re unsure as to who the father is, yes.

  5. yet another example of the pro-forced pregnancy crowd failing to think about the logical consequences of their laws.

    You beat me to it.

  6. yet another attempt to view women as nothing more than property and vessels to which men have an absolute right. i just vomited on my computer screen.

  7. Yes, how did the anti-big government GOP decide to get involved in a person’s relationship? That is one of the biggest contradictions of those bastards. They scream about small government and then legislate down to the last detail of someone’s private life.

  8. If they’re unsure as to who the father is, yes.

    But how are they going to be sure? What if I get my friend to come down with me and say, “Yes, I am absolutely confident I am the father!” Are they going to dig through my trash, check out my phone records, ask the neighbors? Or are they just going to DNA test everybody?

    And who’s going to pay for the DNA test? Presumably the woman. Honestly, I don’t see how even people who are so-called pro-life can think this law would be remotely feasible without establishing a fascist situation where private lives are required to be reported to the state. It’s stupid.

  9. You know what – I almost want it to pass. I mean, not really, but I’d love to see how things would pan out if one of these bat-shit insane bills went through. To witness the backlash that’d occur and the looks of shock on the faces of slow-witted pro-lifers everywhere. They’d actually have to face the reality of their position and the laws they propose.
    Then I’d wake up to realize it’d all been a bad dream of course.

  10. Since when did conservatives start to believe that more bureaucracy interfering in your life was a good thing?

    Ever since they realized that said bureaucracy would allow them to hear every salacious detail about other people’s sex lives and get paid for it to boot. The only other people who get to do that for a living are the ones who edit Penthouse Forum.

  11. It was a legal case like this, where a ‘father’ took a ‘mother’ to court to prevent an abortion, that solidified my feminist tendencies when I was about 14/15. Canada’s abortion law was struck down in 1988 (it is regulated like any other medical procedure), and these cases were decided in 1989. In Chantal Daigle’s case, the course actually granted the ex-boyfriend an injunction. Even when it turned out that she had already gone to the USA for an abortion (Oh! The irony!), the Supreme Court still went through with an official overturning of the injunction, just to show that this kind of shit just won’t fly in Canada.

  12. What if the father’s a rapist?!?!?!?!?!

    From what I have heard, it looks like you’ll need to provide a police report or a court-order, or the like.

    Fills you with confidence, eh?

  13. Oh, and as to my thoughts on the matter … *sigh* unfortunately, not surprised, could see something like this happening … not to mention this is a very logical outcome of the insanity of equating a fetus with an actual child.

  14. The Ohio legislature is so filled with crazies, I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if this piece of shit bill actually passed. Even though it is completely ridiculous, sexist, patronizing, and totally unenforceable. Thank whichever deity you believe in (or just good luck) that we have Strickland and not Blackwell, because it will at least get vetoed.

  15. Of course there is also the obvious problem…what about domestic violence victims? Because if they run and find out later that they’re pregnant, the first thing they want to do is contact the father…because we all know abuses are especially kind when their punching bags are pregnant.

    /angry sarcasm

  16. I’m not unsympathetic to the idea that would-be fathers should have some say in reproductive decision making,

    What. the. fuck.

    Elaborate, please?

    Or maybe I am appalled at nothing, and you just meant they should have a say in making decisions about their own reproductive organs and fertility. Seems a pretty weird and obvious thing to stick in there, though.

  17. Proof positive of Tina’s patented statement on the differences between Democrats and Republicans:

    “Democrats want to legislate what you do in the boardroom. Republicans want to legislate what you do in the bedroom.”

  18. Elaborate, please?

    Or maybe I am appalled at nothing, and you just meant they should have a say in making decisions about their own reproductive organs and fertility. Seems a pretty weird and obvious thing to stick in there, though.

    Yeah, it was some sloppy writing on my part. Mea culpa. Your phrasing is much better.

  19. Oh my fucking god.

    Guess I’ll have to remember to find a guy I can pay to call himself the “father of my fetus” if I ever need an abortion.

    What a stupid bill.

  20. To witness the backlash that’d occur and the looks of shock on the faces of slow-witted pro-lifers everywhere. They’d actually have to face the reality of their position and the laws they propose. – SarahMC

    Except, part of the reason the right-wing agenda does so well is that people figure they’ll never have to face the reality of the laws that agenda proposes. The success of the right is based in general on everyone figuring that, if the clock were turned back, they’d be a noble rather than a peasant (when the probability is much higher they’d be peasants, c.f. Rawls) — and who wouldn’t picture themselves as a baron or count or duke? — so people support the agenda from which they’d love to think they’d benefit.

    In this case, everyone’ll think they are in a situation where they’d never get hurt by this law (if worse comes to worse, they figure they’d have the resources to go to another state), and hence they’ll support it.

  21. Orwellian indeed. This legislation, if taken to its logical conclusion, is not too different from the old authoritarian idea that all citizens are property of more powerful individuals/state to be unquestioningly sacrificed for its perceived “social good”.

    And I thought we were supposed to be promoting “freedom” here.

  22. Umm actually if you are in a stable healthy relationship you should be having a discussion with the person who impregnated you about how you are going to proceed.

    Both parties in the relationship have a right to have an opinion about the situation to have their own feelings about it but only one person has control over a woman’s body and that would be the woman.

    To talk about men in sexual relationships as if they are not allowed to have any feelings about pregnancy at all is absurd and cruel.

    Not as absurd and cruel as this legislation, of course, but still pretty absurd.

  23. Yes, how did the anti-big government GOP decide to get involved in a person’s relationship? That is one of the biggest contradictions of those bastards. They scream about small government and then legislate down to the last detail of someone’s private life.

    Heh, it’s called “lying.” /flippant

    Longer answer: The whole anti-big-government thing, well, if you recall it was also called “anti-nanny-state.” Nanny state, or Mommy government, and the like. What does a nanny or a mother do? Supply you with things, help you when you’re in need.

    The people who say they’re “anti-big-government” who are against government aid but are in favor of laws regulating sex lives and medical decisions are not really anti-big-government (after all, gotta have that corporate welfare and help out those lobbyists, too) but rather pro-Big Daddy government. That is, rather than having a government that helps people in need, they want a government that punishes and moralizes and invades privacy, like an authoritarian father figure.

    You’ve probably noticed (or at least I have) that the anti-big-government talking points we heard so much of from the right wing in the Clinton years have dropped off considerably, now that they’re trying so hard to implement Big Daddy Government.

    And here we have a quite literal attempt to apply Big Daddy government.

  24. To talk about men in sexual relationships as if they are not allowed to have any feelings about pregnancy at all is absurd

    Sure is. Good thing nobody even suggested such a thing, then. Perhaps you could save the outrage for the actual problem at hand?

  25. To talk about men in sexual relationships as if they are not allowed to have any feelings about pregnancy at all is absurd and cruel.

    And where did someone say this?

  26. Ellenbrenna makes an excellent point. Acting as if the fathers of these unborn children have no legitimate voice in deciding whether their children live or die is immoral. If a woman believes that simply because she bears the physical burden of nine months of pregnancy she should therefore have a veto over whether this independent life is allowed to be born, she is selfish and, to borrow from ellenbrenna ‘absurd and cruel.’

    While this legislation does not advance the goal of allowing both parties to have a role in whether a child is born, is it any worse than the general ‘pro-choice’ position that the ultimate decision-maker is the woman (who essentially gets a de facto veto)?

    Not in my view.

  27. To talk about men in sexual relationships as if they are not allowed to have any feelings about pregnancy at all is absurd and cruel. – ellenbrenna

    I would phrase things this way: there is a difference between having feelings about something and having the standing to make a case of it. I have feelings about many things — I’m an overly opinionated jerk — but, fortunately, I can only seek legal remedy for those things that directly affect me (although, IMHO, this restriction often goes too far … e.g. look at how courts use it to weasle out of making tough decisions regarding the constitutionality of Bush & CO programs).

    It seems to me that while I may have opinions as to my partner’s pregnancy (should she become pregnant), until I’m the one having a fetus sucking out my vital forces, I have no legal standing in the matter. IMHO, even as a man, it doesn’t make sense to give me any legal standing — my feelings deserve respect … my feelings don’t need to be and ought not to be legally enforced.

  28. Your phrasing is much better.

    Good! I really thought you meant something else, so thanks.

    What could that other thing be? Could it be S. thought you could be sympathetic to the idea that a man would have his own feelings about abortion that he might express? Could it be that which got S. momentarily outraged at you?

    The implication was those feelings and that expression is beyond the pale. In healthy relationships they should not be.

  29. “I almost want it to pass. I mean, not really, but I’d love to see how things would pan out if one of these bat-shit insane bills went through. To witness the backlash that’d occur and the looks of shock on the faces of slow-witted pro-lifers everywhere. They’d actually have to face the reality of their position and the laws they propose.”

    No they won’t. Like every other law the wingnuts pass, it is restrictive of the poor; middle class and higher people will not have to endure its effects, they can just go to a friendlier state or country.

    And the poor rarely speak up because their plights are minimized and assigned to all manner of deviance. So the laws will remain as many other laws unjust to the poor have remained, such as banning medicaid funding for abortion, deconstruction of emergency aid programs, college grants and affordable loans, slashing housing and fuel assistance programs, it goes on.

    Also, just to be on the record: the old timey Republican with his curmedgeonly pro-business, anti-government stance is not the same Republican as today. Since the common man revolution of the party in Reagan’s and Falwell’s day, they have taken the proletariat sheep clothing and used ignorance, fear and superstition to get their agenda through.

    Problem is I think, the ole’ timey Republicans had better make sure that they are far enough from the common folk that they can effectively skirt the cultural jihad they and the power hungry fundies have constructed over the last thirty years. Secure enough to let the masses fight amongst themselves. So far so good, but I wonder how far can they go?

    I hate to be like many radicals I once knew who were waiting for things to get much worse to force the revolution, but I’m thinking we actually will get there in my lifetime if things like this keep up.

  30. DAS I explicitly stated that the law is absurd and cruel far more so than the denial of the men’s emotional needs by random commentors on feminist political blogs.

  31. There are laws that I’m against because I’m a feminist.

    And then there are laws that I’m against because I can think logically and see the insurmountable logistical problems involved.

    I should stop being surprised that the two overlap so often.

  32. The implication was those feelings and that expression is beyond the pale. In healthy relationships they should not be.

    Feelings and expression are one thing. Legality is something else.

    But that is besides the point with this proposed legislation, IMO. The fact is, if they were to enforce this at all the women of Ohio (not to mention the men they’re sleeping with) would be living in a situation where their sex lives would have to be under constant monitoring by the state.

  33. DAS I explicitly stated that the law is absurd and cruel far more so than the denial of the men’s emotional needs by random commentors on feminist political blogs. – ellenbrenna

    Perhaps this denial has occured elsewhere, but it doesn’t seem to be occuring in this thread. I’ve seen plenty of denial of men’s emotional needs and their situations by so-called feminists (and responded in such a way that more than one person here has no doubt mistaken me for a troll or an MRA), but even I fail to see such denial here.

  34. ellenbrenna, i’m pretty sure that is not what sophonisba meant. I thought the implication was that the father shouldn’t be able to make reproductive decisions for the mother, not that he shouldn’t have an opinion.

  35. “I explicitly stated that the law is absurd and cruel far more so than the denial of the men’s emotional needs by random commentors on feminist political blogs.”

    And yet somehow completely missed several people pointing out that no “random commenter” here “deni[ed] men’s emotional needs.”

    I can’t speak for sophonisba, but I rather think that if sophonisba wanted to “impl[y] [that] those feeling [are] beyond the pale”, she would have directly addressed the part of the post where evil fizz does exactly the opposite and states that “people in healthy relationships already talk about unplanned pregnancies.”

    I think I do speak for a lot of people here when I say “wtf?”

  36. Oh my fucking god.

    Guess I’ll have to remember to find a guy I can pay to call himself the “father of my fetus” if I ever need an abortion.

    That’s what anti-choice women would be counting on for their own abortions; entirely justifiable abortions, mind you, unlike those of all the bad, bad women out there. They would have the money and/or the connections — at least they think they would — to pay for a temporary “father,” to find pliable doctors or to use any potential loopholes; a privilege that would be denied to poor women. And that’s part of the attraction of conservatism: finding new ways for otherwise unremarkable people to distinguish themselves from the masses. You get to cluck at the bad women and feel good about yourself by forcing your moral views on them, while still being able to get an abortion in cases of moral stumbling (the other women don’t stumble, they’re already lying on their backs having all that dirty, selfish sex!) What’s for the sheep ain’t for the shepherds, and all that.

  37. ellenbrenna, i’m pretty sure that is not what sophonisba meant. I thought the implication was that the father shouldn’t be able to make reproductive decisions for the mother, not that he shouldn’t have an opinion.

    Indeed. Any decent man would have feelings and opinions about his partner’s pregnancy. For instance, any decent man would feel strongly that his pregnant partner should continue to be pregnant for exactly as long as she wishes to be, and no longer. He would have strong feelings about anyone who wished to commandeer his partner’s uterus, and he would certainly never dream of wishing to do so himself. I encourage all men with female partners to express these opinions as loudly and frequently as they like, in whatever venues they choose, and to hell with anyone who pretends they have no right to them.

  38. What could that other thing be? Could it be S. thought you could be sympathetic to the idea that a man would have his own feelings about abortion that he might express? Could it be that which got S. momentarily outraged at you?

    The implication was those feelings and that expression is beyond the pale. In healthy relationships they should not be.

    What are you talking about? Sophonisba specifically laid out how she was reading my original remark in her first post: she thought I might be endorsing the idea that men should have decision-making power in the abortion decision.

    I specifically said that men are entitled to their feelings, opinions, and the right to control their *own* fertility. They can talk about the issue for as long as their partner is willing to discuss the issue. Where’s the miscommunication here?

  39. And of course, men who are less than decent should also express their opinions, so that their female partners may discover what wort of people they are, and be forewarned.

  40. “sort” of people, even. And thanks, evil fizz. I did misread you at first, but we sorted it out in a fast and easy exchange some ways back. I don’t know what the issue is now.

  41. Okay, I think I see what ellenbrenna is getting at. There are indeed some “pro-choice” men who think that means “pro-choice for everyone who’s not my girlfriend,” in the same way that some nice liberal parents are pro-gay-rights but freak out when it’s their own son who comes home with a boyfriend. ‘Women can make their own decisions about their own bodies — unless it’s my woman.” Yes? No?

    If this is what you’re thinking of, ellenbrenna, you are absolutely right that I have little respect and not a lot of compassion for these men. However, it is not in my power to deny them the ability to have these distasteful feelings, nor to shame them out of expressing them. More’s the pity.

  42. I repeatedly objected to the law in this thread. No one can compel or restrain another competent adult from getting a medical procedure.

    I also objected to Sophonisba jumping the gun when another commenter expressed sympathy for the idea that men who have positions on reproductive decision making.

    Both were based on reading the text.

  43. I also objected to Sophonisba jumping the gun when another commenter expressed sympathy for the idea that men who have positions on reproductive decision making.

    1. Evil Fizz was the original poster.

    2. Sorry, what? I have sympathy for the idea that men have positions on making decisions about their own reproductive organs. Actually, I think that’s a much too lukewarm way of putting it. I insist and demand that men have full power and control over, and responsibility for, their own reproductive organs. If I have said or implied otherwise, please show me where.

  44. “Secondly, I am deeply troubled by the fact that you seem to be of the opinion that a man’s right to determine the fate of his potential offspring trumps a woman’s right to determine the same.”

    How did you get “trumps” from this bill? It clearly is saying the man should have an equal say as the woman. If the man’s opinion trumped the womans, the man could order the woman to have an abortion. I imagine you did not get a reply because you distorted his bill and tried to put a ludicrous opinion into his mouth.

  45. Conclusively and without any doubt, a man has absolutely no authority to cause or require a woman to become and remain pregnant and bring forth his child against her will. Absolutely not.

    They know this bill won’t get anywhere. This is just pandering. When it fails, relatively less offensive legislation will be substituted, and then they can call us obstinate because they tried to compromise.

  46. Surix, if indeed men get an “equal say,” how will the final decision be reached? The woman wants to abort, the man doesn’t want her to – now what? (It is quite clear that without the father’s permission, a woman can’t get an abortion. So right there, he’s gotten the final say.)

  47. In most cases, when a child is born the father has financial responsibility for that child, so he should have a say.”

    Uhhh . . . if the pregnancy is aborted he DOESN’T have any financial responsibility. All this legislation does is enable men to forbid women the course of action that frees the men from child-support payments; I fail to see how it’s in the interest of compensating for that financial responsibility.

    On the off chance it passes, however, it doesn’t need to jeopardize Roe v. Wade. It can be challenged for violating the Thirteenth Amendment. (“Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude shall exist . . .” and men gaining something (a child) from women’s unwilling labor (pregnancy) ought to count as involuntary servitude.)

  48. I also objected to Sophonisba jumping the gun when another commenter expressed sympathy for the idea that men who have positions on reproductive decision making.

    I think you’d better quit while you’re ahead since the poster that you thought you were agreeing with says that she actually meant the opposite. You’re defending a phantom.

  49. Imagine the fucked up situations this law would create, especially for teenagers, whose uteruses would be owned by both their parents AND any boy who has sex with them:

    Who owns your 15-year-old daughter’s womb? You, or that punk kid from down the street? Janie Doe wants an abortion, and her parents, Mr. and Mrs. Doe agree, but 14-year-old Johnny Smith from the wrong side of the tracks refuses to consent. “I love my baby. He can live with me in my room. I changed my little brother’s diaper once. It’s easy.”

    Everyone gets a choice except the pregnant girl herself.

  50. While this legislation does not advance the goal of allowing both parties to have a role in whether a child is born, is it any worse than the general ‘pro-choice’ position that the ultimate decision-maker is the woman (who essentially gets a de facto veto)?
    Not in my view.

    ARE YOU NUTS?!

    The woman gets the de facto veto regarding the pregnancy because the woman is pregnant. The man does not get the de facto veto regarding the pregnancy because the man is not pregnant. The person paying the price decides whether it’s worth paying, as it were. How could this legislation not be worse than the default pro-choice position, when it shifts the decision-making power from the person who shoulders the entire burden of pregnancy to the person who has no physical stake in the matter whatsoever?

    If a woman believes that simply because she bears the physical burden of nine months of pregnancy she should therefore have a veto over whether this independent life is allowed to be born, she is selfish and, to borrow from ellenbrenna ‘absurd and cruel.’

    Independent life? Independent life?! When the question is whether a woman should be obligated to spend nine months supporting that life on the basis that it is dependent on her and will die without her? A fetus is not independent; it cannot live on its own; every second that it’s alive it is alive solely because its mother’s body is keeping it alive.

    And your analysis of the situation is off—a woman saying nine months of pregnancy is what enables her to decide to kill it would be supporting infanticide, not abortion. It is that she doesn’t want to bear nine months of physical burden, not that she’s already borne them and wants the power of life or death in return. It is, rather, that she would bear that burden, and doesn’t want to. The fetus would die anyway, without its months of perpetual life-support—but I suppose I can’t expect understanding of that little detail from someone who apparently thinks the fetus could just continue living on its own if that selfish woman didn’t insert herself into its existence by killing it.

    Now, if somebody would please make a Pro-Life Bingo card to join the Why Don’t You Have Children and Rape Apologist Bingo cards, I think I just won it.

  51. Well, but I don’t think there’s anything wrong with saying “I would like to see this pregnancy carried to term as I would like to be a father, but in the end it’s your body and your choice and you have to do what makes sense for you and you have my support”. If I got pregnant tomorrow, my husband would want me to have the baby (and I would actually want that too, but let’s say hypothetically I didn’t), but if I decided not to have it he would respect that. I don’t know that I can say it wouldn’t bother him, but he realizes that until he has a uterus, the decision to carry to term rests solely in my hands. I don’t think that makes him not-decent. I don’t know if that’s what you were talking about though sophonisba, and I certainly don’t want to put words in your mouth! To me, there’s a huge difference between the mindset of “I would like the would be baby, but am not going to compel you, nag you, or coerce you to have it against your will as I respect your right to make decisions about your body” and the asshole who tries to coerce you into having a baby you don’t want. Which I think was addressed nicely by the “people in healthy relationships do talk about these things” angle. Either way, this bill is absolutely repulsive and should be defeated immediately. Men do not have the right to dictate what happens to someone else’s body.

  52. If a woman believes that simply because she bears the physical burden of nine months of pregnancy

    Only that, then? Wow, what could ever give women the idea that just because she’s the one who has to endure pregnancy and childbirth, she’s the one who gets to decide whether to endure pregnancy and childbirth? How selfish.

  53. How did you get “trumps” from this bill? It clearly is saying the man should have an equal say as the woman. If the man’s opinion trumped the womans, the man could order the woman to have an abortion. I imagine you did not get a reply because you distorted his bill and tried to put a ludicrous opinion into his mouth.

    It’s a trump because she cannot get the abortion without his permission. It, by definition, cannot be an equal say because she’s at the mercy of his whims.

    It ain’t distortion if it’s true.

  54. Jeebus, how did this thread degenerate into an argument with men who feel we must sit here and explain how they should have no voice in a manner that has nothing to do with them.

    But then, I guess its necessary somehow, if nothing else to prove how so many have such a hard time conceptualizing a woman as an independent entity, seperate from male control.

    Such discussions give me the impulse to put on my petticoat, go milk the cows and churn the butter and prepare dinner for when Big Daddy comes home from the fields.

    Lawsy, just when I think we’re ahead I’m reminded of how far behind we really are.

  55. I live in Oregon and because I was married to another man while I conceived the father is a bunch of asterisks on my son’s birth certificate. I can’t believe that I’m going to have to explain this to my son.

    So the fetus is so special in Ohio that I’d have to get special permission to decide to not have a fertilized egg in my body. But if I decide to have the baby in Oregon he gets to be a bunch of asterisks.

  56. How bout instead of giving the man equal say in abortion we just let the man choose to not have anything to do with the child and not pay child support if he signs a waiver after 3 months of being informed of the pregnancy?

  57. A proposed addendum to the bill: The father can have an equal say in the fate of the embryo or fetus if he is willing to take an equal level of risk and inconvenience. So every pregnancy related side effect she suffers is simulated in him. If she gets pregnancy induced nausea he takes small amounts of cis-platinum to simulate similar levels of nausea (as an added bonus, this will also simulate the immune compromise of pregnancy). If she suffers anemia, he gives blood until his hemoglobin is at the same level. If she is put on bedrest, he goes too, regardless of whether his job will give him the time off or whether he has to quit because of it. Then there is labor. I’m not sure what would simulate labor, because I’ve never experienced anything as painful as it. I can tell you a few things that are less painful than labor: second degree burns, having a fingernail pulled off, and recovering from major surgery. Anyone have any proper analogies for labor pain? Oh, and, of course, the risk of death or permanent disability. So, any men willing to put your bodies on the line for your beliefs?

  58. SarahMC Says:
    August 1st, 2007 at 2:34 pm

    You know what – I almost want it to pass. I mean, not really, but I’d love to see how things would pan out if one of these bat-shit insane bills went through. To witness the backlash that’d occur

    Except, SarahMC, there probably wouldn’t be a backlash. There’s so little resistance to this bullshit–people just give up like it’s okay. The far left is now somewhere right of the middle.

  59. What absolutely boggles me about this law is that, unlike laws that give authority to men because he’s her husband*, this law gives a man complete authority over a woman just because he had sex with her. That’s it. You put your dick in a woman, you instantly gain legal power over her.

    Fucked up.

    * This is just as fucked up, of course, but a step better than any random guy who had a one-night stand.

  60. The calm, succinct response to this at feministing says it all for me very well:

    “Fuck. You.”

  61. What absolutely boggles me about this law is that, unlike laws that give authority to men because he’s her husband*, this law gives a man complete authority over a woman just because he had sex with her.

    You poke it, you own it?

  62. This is eerily familiar…I say give them the pound of flesh, without spilling a drop of blood.
    Or, barring that… promote immaculate conception in goddess worship. Cernunnos says I can do what I want with my body. This law is ludicrious.

  63. I’d like to not talk about men’s emotional needs (especially when those “emotional needs” include physical harm to women) and rather talk about men’s responsibilities:

    1) Don’t impregnate a woman who has not agreed to be impregnated by you.

    2) If you fail to control your sperm without first getting permission to impregnate a woman with it, sit down, STFU, and wait to be asked for your opinion, if it’s wanted at all.

    3) If #2, while you’re waiting, think about how you’ve harmed the woman through your failure to control your sperm.

    4) If you knew a woman didn’t want to be impregnated and you impregnated her anyway, apologize for causing her physical and emotional pain and suffering, then STFU and wait to see how much damage you’ve caused. Offer to pay for the damages. Most decent people who cause harm to someone else through negligence or recklessness or by accident make restitution. It’s the least you can do.

    It’s called consequences for you actions. It’s called owning up to your failures. It’s called being a decent human being and recognizing that women are people, not sex toys, not baby factories, not your property.

    I certainly wouldn’t let Mr. Adams anywhere near female children. He seems to have ideas about entitlement to use female bodies that isn’t acceptable in civilized society.

    /rant

  64. frankly, i think all men should consider getting the big V. wank off a few times, have your sperm saved somewhere for when you actually need it, and get the ol’ snippy-poo. that’s *my* preferred method of birth control.

  65. frankly, i think all men should consider getting the big V. wank off a few times, have your sperm saved somewhere for when you actually need it, and get the ol’ snippy-poo.

    Which might be a possibility for men with the financial resources to have a fertility clinic freeze and store samples for many years, but I don’t think it’s viable for most. (Apologies for the pun.)

  66. hey I honestly believe that a man should have right to decide whether his baby is going to be exterminated or not, and obviously the mother wants the abortion if she’s going for it but the dad should have a say too, the girl didn’t have the baby by herself!!
    On the other hand, if this happened out of wedlock, I do think that the father should lose a lot of his rights towards that kid.
    This law does make it difficult for women though…
    sighs

  67. quick google found a clinic in utah with these prices:

    Cost
    Current costs for freezing and long term storage fees are as follows:
    * Freezing costs/sample $80.00 (Includes 60 days storage)
    * Long term storage fees $1.50 per vial/month (Payable in advance – billed for Next 6 months of storage)
    * Minimum storage fee per year $85.00

    now, call me crazy, but i think the cost of the big V plus an additional 85 dollars a year is significantly cheaper than monthly child support payments for 21 years. but i wasn’t a math major or anything so i might be wrong.

    cite:
    http://uuhsc.utah.edu/andrology/education_7.html

  68. now, call me crazy, but i think the cost of the big V plus an additional 85 dollars a year is significantly cheaper than monthly child support payments for 21 years. but i wasn’t a math major or anything so i might be wrong.

    Don’t forget, you also have to add in the costs of getting the sperm unfrozen when it’s time and having the insemination or IVF done by a professional. You can’t just defrost it in your fridge and use a turkey baster like you can with the fresh stuff.

  69. what’s backward about this, nut? i’m not remotely claiming to know the ins and outs of how sperm freezing and unfreezing occurs but it’s worth a look. or what? is the idea that, after you strip away all of the bulslhit, men cause 100% of all unplanned pregnancies just too much for you to handle?

    that said, mnemosyne, i really have no idea how sperm freezing and such works. reading more of the website i linked to, insertion is 200-300 bucks which is about the cost of one month of child support for one child. overall i think it’s possibly a cheaper option.

  70. “Surix, if indeed men get an “equal say,” how will the final decision be reached? The woman wants to abort, the man doesn’t want her to – now what? (It is quite clear that without the father’s permission, a woman can’t get an abortion. So right there, he’s gotten the final say.)”

    “It’s a trump because she cannot get the abortion without his permission. It, by definition, cannot be an equal say because she’s at the mercy of his whims.

    It ain’t distortion if it’s true.”

    You have to put this into perspective. With current laws it goes like this:
    1.
    Man wants the baby to live, woman wants the baby to die.
    Woman’s vote wins.
    Man wants the baby to die, woman wants the baby to live.
    Woman’s vote wins.

    And with this bill it would go like this:
    2.
    Man wants the baby to live, woman wants the baby to die.
    Man’s vote wins.
    Man wants the baby to die, woman wants the baby to live.
    Woman’s vote wins.

    In the first scenario the woman has the trump being she wins no matter what.
    In the second scenario with the proposed bill it is equal being they both have a say in the life or death of the child.

  71. Another way to look at it is this. If they are for the baby, they are given trump power. If they are against the baby they have no trump power. This is fair being they both have the same rights and the baby’s rights play a part in some way as well.

  72. or men could get vasectomies and have absolute say. not only would they have absolute say, but then *they’d* be able to trick women! women wouldn’t even see it coming! they would get *owned*! when one of those cunting bitches tries to snare him into marriage by claiming pregnancy, he can say “nope! i’m sterilized!” and then …. laugh at her? yes?

    this is my new mantra every time i discuss abortion with someone, especially a man.

  73. Just curious: if the man wanted an abortion, and the woman decided to keep the baby, must the man pay child support?

  74. Another way to look at it is this. If they are for the baby, they are given trump power. If they are against the baby they have no trump power. This is fair being they both have the same rights and the baby’s rights play a part in some way as well.

    And here’s where we differ. I don’t think there’s a baby in this situation with rights. Nor do I think that the appropriate default is that choosing to continue the pregnancy should be the only thing you can do without your partner’s permission.

    Just curious: if the man wanted an abortion, and the woman decided to keep the baby, must the man pay child support?

    Yes.

  75. What procedure are they planning to determine paternity 2-4 weeks after conception? Quite apart from the moral/ethical evils of this plan, it’s unimplementable in practice as well.

  76. I’ve wondered about this before, too. The potential father’s rights in the situation, I mean.

    The way I’d look at it is: He helped create this baby, by accident or not. So, shouldn’t he get to have a say about whether or not it’s born? Because the mother does. Granted, it is in her body. However, if the father wants nothing to do with the child or the birth of it, he can just get off by paying child support for 18 years and leaving it at that, but the child still exists and he had no say over whether or not it got to. Only the mother did. And in that kind of situation, I’m sure the issue at hand, or the main reason for deciding whether or not to abort, was not the pregnancy, but the baby that would result. In this situation, one of the potential parents wanted their “baby,” but the other didn’t. If it’s the father who wants it, and not the mother, she can abort it. If it’s the mother who wants it, and not the father, then the father still has responsibility and no say about whether or not he has a child, even if they did use birth control. He chose to be responsible, as did the potential mother, but in the end, the potential mother can choose to have the baby and make the father pay for it. Seems a bit unfair, but I don’t see any way that would make sense to make it more fair. The reason being, because when it comes down to it, if the woman doesn’t want a baby inside of her, then she shouldn’t have one inside of her.

    That said, I believe that the woman has the final say… However, I wonder why we even bother with the whole “Oh course he has a right to an opinion” thing, because what does that opinion matter if it all boils down to the woman’s choice, and that’s it? If the man’s opinion doesn’t count, why bother saying over and over again that he should have one?

    All i’m trying to say is… if my BC failed, and my fiance got me pregnant and I wanted an abortion and he wanted me to have the baby, I’d have a tough time with the decision, because I’d feel as though, since he helped create it, his opinion ought to count, not just exist.

    Luckily, I am in a healthy relationship and this issue has been discussed and the abortion would be had, but… not everyone in a relationship has communicated these issues with their partners, and not everyone who gets pregnant unexpectedly is even in a relationship to have had that conversation yet. So that doesn’t really apply to everyone, as some seem to think.

    But then, those people just shouldn’t be so slutty and having sex, right? Since they are, they should pay the consequences of sleeping around by raising an unwanted child alone.

    (sarcasm)

  77. “Just curious: if the man wanted an abortion, and the woman decided to keep the baby, must the man pay child support?”

    “Yes.”

    Evil Fizz: Why is that? If a woman did not want the responsibility of having a child, she had the option of an abortion to absolve her of that, as she certainly should.

    But if the man can prove that he did not want this pregnancy to occur and he took necessary steps from preventing that from happening, and could somehow prove that he wanted her to have an abortion, why should he still have to pay child support?

    And furthermore, what if a woman lies to her partner about birth control? By saying she’s on the pill when she really wasn’t, so he didn’t wear a condom, and she got pregnant, and then decided she wanted to keep the baby? What are the potential father’s rights in that situation?

  78. Another way to look at it is this. If they are for the baby, they are given trump power. If they are against the baby they have no trump power. This is fair being they both have the same rights and the baby’s rights play a part in some way as well.

    And here’s where we differ. I don’t think there’s a baby in this situation with rights….

    It also doesn’t make logical legal sense, even supposing the fetus/baby has rights.

    Inasmuch as the baby/fetus has rights, they are not rights that the baby/fetus can exercise him/herself. That’s why parents have rights as parents. When it comes to children, the parents and the state are guardians of not just the child, but the child’s rights. So the only “third vote” is that of the state, which steps in when parents overstep their bounds and endanger the lives of their children.

    Whatever rights the potential father has with regard to the fetus comes from the potential father’s responsibility as guardian of the fetus’s rights. If the fetus does not have enough right to life for the state to step in and override the pregnant woman’s decision regarding her own body, then the father – as one of the guardians of those rights – doesn’t have the right to do so either.

  79. (grrr…I keep messing up my double blockquotes.)

    “Why is that?”

    Because child support is a contract with the child, not with the mother. That’s why it’s called “child support,” not “mother support” or “co-parent support.”

    Saying fathers should be able to opt out of supporting their children if they want the mother to have an abortion and she doesn’t…it’s like using the excuse “but I don’t care how messy the house is!” when company is coming. At that point the issue really isn’t even just that (assuming the same gender division as in the abortion debate) she will take more of the blame than you would, it’s also about what you owe your guests. (Assuming, of course, your guests care, and in this analogy, I really think we can assume your kids would care, so…..)

  80. Why is that? If a woman did not want the responsibility of having a child, she had the option of an abortion to absolve her of that, as she certainly should.

    But if the man can prove that he did not want this pregnancy to occur and he took necessary steps from preventing that from happening, and could somehow prove that he wanted her to have an abortion, why should he still have to pay child support?

    Because child support is so called for a very good reason: its support for the child. It doesn’t matter if the pregnancy was wanted or not. Once there is a child born, it has needs that must be satisfied.

    Further, if you allow for “financial abortions”, you then place women in an unconscionable bind. Unless they capitulate and terminate the pregnancy, they’re threated with total non-support (which may make raising a child difficult or impossible).

    And furthermore, what if a woman lies to her partner about birth control? By saying she’s on the pill when she really wasn’t, so he didn’t wear a condom, and she got pregnant, and then decided she wanted to keep the baby? What are the potential father’s rights in that situation?

    Tough luck, hard cheese. If a man wants to control his fertility, there are methods at his disposal to do so, i.e., condoms, vasectomy. If either partner lies to the other or the birth control fails and the pregnancy isn’t terminated, then both parents are obligated to provide support. It’s just a matter of biology that women have the additional option of abortion, it’s not like choosing whether or not to have an abortion is some sort of great privilege here.

  81. So Surix, it’s not really that men have an equal say in what happens to the pregnancy, it’s that men get an equal say if they want the pregnancy completed. Men’s wishes don’t matter so much if they want the woman to abort (not that I think they should, but this is clearly a “make it harder for women to abort, under the guise of giving men a say”).

    And furthermore, what if a woman lies to her partner about birth control? By saying she’s on the pill when she really wasn’t, so he didn’t wear a condom, and she got pregnant, and then decided she wanted to keep the baby? What are the potential father’s rights in that situation?

    If a man feels that strongly about not wanting a baby, maybe he should take some responsibility for making sure he doesn’t get anyone pregnant. If you’re willing to leave contraception completely up to the woman, you’re putting yourself at risk. Men have options; they just don’t use them. Then they whine that women have duped them.

  82. “now, call me crazy, but i think the cost of the big V plus an additional 85 dollars a year is significantly cheaper than monthly child support payments for 21 years. but i wasn’t a math major or anything so i might be wrong.”

    There’s a new sort-of vasectomy option (the IVD) that should be approved somewhere around 2010. It’s basically a plug instead of a snip or a clamp, so it doesn’t cause scar tissue, doesn’t involve hormones, and would be cheaply reversible. It’d still cost about a grand to have implanted and another grand to have it removed, but when you compare it to the cost of accidentally fathering a child, changing your mind about a normal vasectomy (vasovasotomies ain’t cheap), or shelling out for the services of a fertility clinic once you’ve decided to have children, it seems like a pretty good deal.

    Also, it’ll be nice to be able to tell the dudes who are so damn worried about some devil-woman tricking them into fatherhood or aborting their precious heir just to fuck with them to go cram a plug in it.

  83. Oh, for fuck’s sake. IF men want to be fathers, find some agreeable women and impregnate her. Don’t try and force it on any old woman you get pregnant. And by the way, if you get a woman pregnant, I sure hope to hell if you want sympathy you used a condom. You still won’t get out of child support any more than you’ll get out of an insurance bill if you cause a car accident, but somehow people are less sympathetic in the latter instance. Shit happens. Don’t make other people pick up yours.

    “The implication was those feelings and that expression is beyond the pale. In healthy relationships they should not be.”

    What’s healthy about forcing a woman to have a baby she doesn’t want? Christ, if men watched their sperm as carefully as they demanded special rights over women, we wouldn’t even have laws like this, which don’t give women special rights over men. Don’t use condoms? Face a vasectomy for reckless indifference.

  84. Apelynn, funny how men don’t try the proof route. Isn’t male condom use something like 20%? They’ve gotten so used to getting away with doing nothing that doing something that isn’t totally self indulgent feels like a chore. Tough shit.

  85. Starwatcher207 on LJ did a post on it awhile back. I’ll have to look for it, but yeah—-20%. So much for being entrapped.

  86. “because I’d feel as though, since he helped create it, his opinion ought to count, not just exist.”

    i think that’s an extremely valid position and i agree with it. in both of my relationships, if i got pregnant i’d need my significant other’s respect and support. and presumably they would need mine. but that’s a healthy relationship. more to the point, that’s only *my* idea of what a healthy relationship consists of. no law should exist that forces the abortion conversation anymore than a law should exist that forces us to discuss who washes the dishes or what movie we go see.

  87. *Haven’t read comments yet!

    I’m just wondering exactly… how you can enforce 3-5. As for six… considering most pregnancies are terminated in the first trimester, I’m kinda wondering HOW they would do that. Is there a method at that early stage or would they have to wait for the fetus to be more developed to perform the test – which may be the whole point (either to cause the percentage of late-term abortions to rise or in vain hopes that teh wimmins will change their minds)

  88. Another thing… if we give men the right to deny abortion, what’s to stop them from the next step? Forcing abortions. I mean as he said “In most cases, when a child is born the father has financial responsibility for that child, so he should have a say.” Right?

  89. RE: “Christ, if men watched their sperm as carefully as they demanded special rights over women, we wouldn’t even have laws like this, which don’t give women special rights over men. ”

    Really, start asking men online and elsewhere how they feel. I’m finding most actually believe that it is the woman’s responsibility to tell men to use a condom. They also appear to believe it is the woman’s responsibility to prevent men from harming them, and not the man’s responsibility to not harm women.

    Can some respectable polling place actually get a genuine poll out there? Add another poll for the reasons men want to become a father, and list such things as “it would be fun to teach my son how to play ball,” and “my sperm is very important to me.”

    Seriously.

    I wonder if men shoplift like it’s going out of style, too. “Damn shopkeepers should know better than to open their doors.”

  90. I’m just wondering exactly… how you can enforce 3-5. As for six… considering most pregnancies are terminated in the first trimester, I’m kinda wondering HOW they would do that. Is there a method at that early stage or would they have to wait for the fetus to be more developed to perform the test

    I Googled prenatal paternity testing to check this, and the paternity testing site I turned up gave its earliest method as CVS (chorionic villus sampling), which is done at 10-12 weeks.

  91. Interesting that they frame this in terms of every man having the right to a say in a pregnancy he created, but make no measures to ensure that if he wants an abortion and she does not, he’ll get his abortion anyway. How come it doesn’t work both ways? 😉

    Because they can somehow see the monstrosity of removing female choice when it results in a terminated pregnancy, but not when it results in a birth?

    The motives here are pretty transparent.

  92. I get the feeling from the tone of things that a lot of these woman have really been hurt by a man and as a result fancy that they are oppressed as a gender.

    I’d say the fact is that men and woman behave the same overall, have the same rights, and there are just as many rotten men as their are rotten woman. One gender should not need to gain any additional rights over the other.

    Yes, a fetus is part of the woman’s body, and mothers have a special bond with their children. So maybe they should get extra rights in the matter. They do when the child is born, they have the advantage in custody battles. But when the issue is something that is morally questionable (something both parties will have to live with psychologically) they should get no advantage. When she has sex there should be a sense of accountability for what happens just like there is with a man.

    I know the response will be, “the man should have thought what could happen when he didn’t use a condom” you should say the same thing about a woman, “the woman should have thought what could happen if she goes along with him not wearing a condom”.

    Granted this is a questionable issue, but some of you are talking as if this was not a gray grounds, and as if it is obviously some kind of tyrannical plot that is trying to oppress woman. …right…

  93. I get the feeling from the tone of things that a lot of these woman have really been hurt by a man and as a result fancy that they are oppressed as a gender.

    And if you’re of that opinion, you’re on the wrong blog. I have no authority to ban you from the blog, but you will not be welcome to comment on my posts any longer if this is the tone you’re going to take.

    I know the response will be, “the man should have thought what could happen when he didn’t use a condom” you should say the same thing about a woman, “the woman should have thought what could happen if she goes along with him not wearing a condom”.

    And this is true. It’s just that when a woman finds herself pregnant, she still has the option of seeking an abortion. It’s a mere matter of biology that she’s got one more option.

  94. Another question regarding this abomination and assault on humanity.

    If a woman requires an abortion to save her life, and the man is a beneficiary on her life insurance policy, does he still get a say in whether or not she can have the abortion?

  95. RE: “I know the response will be, “the man should have thought what could happen when he didn’t use a condom” you should say the same thing about a woman, “the woman should have thought what could happen if she goes along with him not wearing a condom”.

    The issue is that men often do not accept an equal share of the responsibility in preventing conception. Too often, they leave that to the woman and make no effort to uphold their own responsibility to control their sperm. If men were to own that responsibility in the same measure that women are owning their responsibility to prevent conception, we’d arguably have far fewer unwanted pregnancies.

  96. CVS has a slightly higher than 1:100 chance of causing a miscarriage. ahh… the ironies!

    Well, yeah. And actually, as I recall, there’s a reason that amnio is more used than CVS, even though CVS gives results weeks earlier, involving a certain risk that’s somewhat higher with CVS than amnio – but that’s in the normal situation, where you’re getting prenatal testing in a case where you want the baby.

  97. “Another question regarding this abomination and assault on humanity.

    If a woman requires an abortion to save her life, and the man is a beneficiary on her life insurance policy, does he still get a say in whether or not she can have the abortion?”

    Abomination and assault on humanity are pretty strong words to use on something that is giving a fetus one more chance to survive.

    About your example, I agree proof that a pregnancy would endanger the life of a mother should be grounds for abortion regardless of the man’s say. That should be worked into the bill. Good that you point it out.

    “And if you’re of that opinion, you’re on the wrong blog. I have no authority to ban you from the blog, but you will not be welcome to comment on my posts any longer if this is the tone you’re going to take.”
    I thought blogs are for debating, not to preach to the converted and pat each others backs.

  98. RE: “Abomination and assault on humanity are pretty strong words to use on something that is giving a fetus one more chance to survive.”

    Granting another person or nonperson the entitlement to use a women’s body against the wishes of the woman is an abomination and assault on humanity. Strongly worded? Absolutely, as it should be.

    Are you in support of using women’s bodies against their wishes? Are you in favor of using women’s bodies without their consent to do so?

  99. And by “using women’s bodies against their wishes” you mean denying them the right to have an operation? (an abortion)

    You really should explain why you are being so liberal with the english language here.

    I will for the moment assume that you mean forcing to have a pregnancy is the same as using their bodies against their wishes. The fact is that the only “force” in this case is nature. When you get pregnant that is what happens, you give birth unless nature is interfered with. This bill would not force anything on a woman, it would only disallow interference of the natural course of a pregnancy unless both parties involved give their consent There are many operations and medications that can only be used under certain circumstances under US law.

  100. “The fact is that the only “force” in this case is nature. When you get pregnant that is what happens, you give birth unless nature is interfered with.”

    Inasmuch as you are talking about making such “intereference” illegal (in certain circumstances), that’s rather like arguing that you aren’t forcing people to keep their natural hair color when you write laws making dying one’s hair illegal.

    “No, ma’am. It’s not the state that doesn’t want you hair pink, it’s go – er…nature.”

  101. “There are many operations and medications that can only be used under certain circumstances under US law.”

    Such as? I’m having a really hard time coming up with any that are legally restricted beyond “patient must have or be suspected of having condition for which this drug/operation is appropriate according to current medical standards” and “patient must either be legally capable of informed consent or have the consent of a guardian who is.”

  102. RE: “And by “using women’s bodies against their wishes” you mean denying them the right to have an operation? (an abortion)”

    If a man impregnates a woman without her consent and against her wishes, he has used her body in a manner against her wishes and without her consent to do so. Further to the matter, consenting to sex is not consenting to pregnancy, only sex. If a man has obtained consent to engage in sex with a woman, the onus is on him to not impregnate her unless she has explicitly consented to be impregnated. Furthermore, men can’t assume the right to continued use of a woman’s body after the sexual encounter. A woman has the right to end the physical relationship at any time and deny a man further access to, or use of, her body, particularly and most assuredly when that access or use involves harm to the woman’s body. As a man, in the case of unwanted pregnancy, has already breached the boundaries of consent, he most certainly should have no claim to further breach the boundaries of consent. To argue otherwise would be an abomination and an assault on humanity, as this piece of abhorrent legislation is.

    Before you go off on, “but, but men don’t consent to pregnancy,” let me slap another fact on you: men don’t get pregnant.

    [Redacted at the commenter’s request. -Ed]

  103. a woman has just as much control of pregnancy as a man has control of pregnancy.
    but wait…agressivly using womans bodies? are we both talking about consuntual intercourse here?
    and someone coming in to your house? bullets?

    [Comments like this about other posters will be removed. -Ed]

    “Inasmuch as you are talking about making such “intereference” illegal (in certain circumstances), that’s rather like arguing that you aren’t forcing people to keep their natural hair color when you write laws making dying one’s hair illegal.”

    Sure, inasmuch as I am talking about making something illegal in a certain circumstance, you can relate it to making something else illegal in a certain circumstance….after all they both have to do with: something, nature, and being illegal 🙂

  104. Here’s what this whole thing sounds like to me, based on this post, following comments, and the abortion debates from the past couple of days:

    Women have the right to have sex with whomever they please, whenever they please. Women also have the right to acquire birth control inexpensively and without difficulty, because it is their right to sexual freedom and they should have the freedom to choose whether or not they wish to be pregnant, or parents. (All of this I agree with 100%.)

    Men have the right to have sex with consenting partners. They must, and always must, wear a condom, because unless their female partner has expressed a desire to be impregnated, accidently doing so is not okay, and the man’s fault. If the woman does not express a desire to have a child prior to sexual intercourse, the man must wear a condom, whether or not the woman asks him not to, because obviously, women cannot be trusted to tell the truth regarding the existence of non-immediately-obvious contraceptives (the Pill, IUD, diaphram, etc), if in fact they are using them. Men should not be foolish enough to trust their partners when they say, “It’s okay, you don’t need to wear a condom; I’m on the Pill,” even if it’s a long-term, monogomous, “healthy” relationship (whatever the couple’s definition of “healthy” is).

    If a pregnancy occurs, and the man does not want the baby to be born, but the woman does, even though they used appropriate contraception (maybe the Pill AND a condom AND spermicide, hypothetically- no contraceptive is 100% effective, obciously) she has the right to have it, and make the father pay child support for the next 18 years. At minimum.

    If a pregnancy occurs, and the man DOES want the baby, but the woman does not and chooses to have an abortion, it becomes the man’s fault for not controlling his sperm, and impregnating the woman against her wishes, even though he did all in his power, save not having sex, to prevent it from happening.

    I’m sure this isn’t how any of this is supposed to be perceived… but the way these arguments are stated makes itpretty hard to take some people seriously.

  105. Surix, you’re no longer welcome to post on my threads. You seem to think that belittling the community and its members constitutes debate and thoughtful discussion. I have neither the time nor the inclination to deal with your trolling.

    Ta!

  106. Actually, it seems like the “pro-choice- sort of” in the article is meant to be tongue-in-cheek and actually belittling the proposed bill. The article is pretty straight forward and any part of it seemingly in favor is actually a quote from someone else.

    But I’m wondering: say for example a woman already had a child with a man and is pregnant with the 2nd and now he refuses to pay child support of either of them and then, by all accounts, drops off the face of the earth. Does this pregnant woman have to track him down to get permission to abort? And does he still get the right to deny her when its proven he won’t help her take care of her existing child?

    Don’t get me wrong, the whole bill is fuct no matter how you look at it. But I wonder how they plan to explain its function in those kinds of situations. Perhaps they’ll hire bounty-hunters whose job it is to serve ex-husbands/boyfriends, dead-beats, and one-night stand guys with these legal papers?

  107. Coercion is a form of force. Using the penalty of law (jail, fines, whatever) to restrain a woman from ending a pregnancy she does not wish to endure or to compel her to terminate a pregnancy against her wishes is using coercion. The whole, “not forcing her to be pregnant, only nature is” is a canard, and a transparent one at that.

  108. “EG Says:
    August 1st, 2007 at 10:46 pm

    If a woman believes that simply because she bears the physical burden of nine months of pregnancy

    Only that, then? Wow, what could ever give women the idea that just because she’s the one who has to endure pregnancy and childbirth, she’s the one who gets to decide whether to endure pregnancy and childbirth? How selfish.”

    EG – Amazing.

  109. Surix: “I get the feeling from the tone of things that a lot of these woman have really been hurt by a man and as a result fancy that they are oppressed as a gender.”

    I think by “a lot of these women” you mean, feminists. And by “really been hurt by a man” you mean, “live under a patriarchal society”. And as far as “fancy that they are..” let’s just strike that whole thing, shall we?

    So- “I get the feeling from the tone of things that feminists live under a patriarchal society and as a result are oppressed as a gender.”

    Yeah, that sounds more like reality to me.

  110. RE: “Surix, you’re no longer welcome to post on my threads. You seem to think that belittling the community and its members constitutes debate and thoughtful discussion. I have neither the time nor the inclination to deal with your trolling.”

    In light of that development, I would like to strike my comments in 118, as they were in response to a troll and carried a tenor I generally only adopt when replying to a rude troll.

  111. This bill is all the more sickening to me at the moment as this morning I saw a documentary on a man who raped and killed 19 women all starting with his outrage over his girl friend getting an abortion because he felt so entitled/outraged about his precious sperm being wasted like that *gag*

  112. If a woman requires an abortion to save her life, and the man is a beneficiary on her life insurance policy, does he still get a say in whether or not she can have the abortion?

    The bill has an exception for cases where the woman’s life or health is threatened by the pregnancy. It also has an exception for rape, but she needs to have filed a police report of the rape.

    But I’m wondering: say for example a woman already had a child with a man and is pregnant with the 2nd and now he refuses to pay child support of either of them and then, by all accounts, drops off the face of the earth. Does this pregnant woman have to track him down to get permission to abort? And does he still get the right to deny her when its proven he won’t help her take care of her existing child?

    It looks to me as if the answers are yes and yes. Also, it looks to me as if, if you had sex with two men and both of them are willing to sign for you to get that abortion, you are still legally supposed to wait for that paternity test to be available, and make that a second trimester abortion, since neither guy can consent until he’s proven to be the actual father.

    In practice, I suspect 3-5 are only enforceable if you have a man who knows he could be the father who’s actively objecting to the abortion. So, if you only slept with men who would want you to get an abortion (or at least be willing for you to choose that), you could pick any one of them, or even someone you didn’t sleep with, to sign that permission, but if you slept with someone who definitely objects to your getting an abortion, he’d better not be able to prove later that he could have been the father.

  113. Re: the rape exception, do the women who report rapes have to wait for the men to be convicted? I predict an increase in false rape reports. We evil women will do anything to kill babies.

  114. SarahMC

    I think that in this case, the woman would only to have reported a rape. Which is also pretty wretched in my opinion. I believe, that since people have a right to bodily autonomy, and have the right not to report the crime. I can understand the fear and panic that could bring that decision.

    We don’t force people to do what’s “right”, and this bill would put a further impetus on allowing women the same freedoms as men. Some men probably wouldn’t file a rape report, because it would further the emasculating.

  115. That argument about we’re “just letting nature have it’s way”–care to use it about people with cancers and why we’re not allowing them to get treatment?

    After all, it’s just nature’s way….

    Oh, but cancers kill!

    Uh, you don’t think that a certain percentage of childbirths don’t as well?

    Go look at exactly what does on inside a woman’s body, biologically, when she gets pregnant. That damn embryo looks a hell of a lot like a rapidly growing cancer.

  116. If a pregnancy occurs, and the man does not want the baby to be born, but the woman does, even though they used appropriate contraception (maybe the Pill AND a condom AND spermicide, hypothetically- no contraceptive is 100% effective, obciously) she has the right to have it, and make the father pay child support for the next 18 years. At minimum.

    ApeLynn, theres this thing called “elementary biology.” I know it’s hard to believe, but it’s true. When a guy has sex, even with a condom there’s generally a chance that a pregnancy will result and (wait, youre not going to believe it) okay if one does result, wow, this is shocking, there’s just about zero chance that the guy is going to be the one hosting the pregnancy inside his body. I know that’s a tough one to grasp, but let’s pretend that’s something everyone can be expected to know.

    That means, that going in the guy knows that a) a pregnancy might result b) he’s not going to be able to decide whether he wnats to terminate it because the chances of him becoming pregnant are so close to being nonexistant as to virtually be nonexistant and c) both parents bear resposibility for born children. That leads us to d) if you are that dead set against having a kid, you better consider not having sex or having a vasectomy, because seeing as how you can’t get pregnant and can’t get an abortion and bc fails, that’s the only way you can really 10% control whether or not you’re going to be a father. It sucks when biology dictates that you have to exercise some degree of care and take responsibility for your own bc instead of being lucky like a woman and getting that second bite at the apple along with all the joys, medical risks and discomforts of pregnancy, but sadly biology is a cruel master and has let guys off hard.

    In a perfect world, she wouldn’t have the right to have it at all, he’s be allowed to tie her up, drive her to the clinic and force her to undergo surgery. Also in a perfect world, nobody would have invented the concept of human rights, and the idea that a child’s parents have financial responsibilities to it (often in the noncustodial parents case, in the nature of $40 a week! a good .00000000003% of the child’s total expenses o the humanity) would be as crazy as the idea that children should be expected/allowed to indulge in such undeserved luxuries as eating and wearing clothes. The only actual right in our utopia would be the right to shunt the responsibility onto someone else for a child you didn’t want to have because you were too lazy to take responsibility for your own birth control responsibilities, shunting it off to your partner instead and whoops! turns out they were lying/thought they’s taken the pill but forgot it was really the day before/their form of bc actually failed too. It’s amazing that society has allowed this injustice to go on so long, can’t we find a way to make things right again by making the kids suffer?

  117. it always amazes me when men think they have control over a woman’s body. i can’t imagine actually having sex with these kinds of people.

    even though i’m in a committed, monogamous relationship of the heterosexual variety, and even though we plan to be together for a very long time, and are actually fairly stable financially, and are good people with a healthy stable relationship, and i’m of fertile age, i would STILL have an abortion were i to become pregnant at this time. why? because we haven’t gotten to a point where complete career changes and movements around the country are out of the question, and i would never try to put a born child through the instability of my life and my partner’s. it is that simple.

    this law is so condescending and inhumane towards women that i want to scream.

  118. “i can’t imagine actually having sex with these kinds of people.”

    I know, right? I can’t imagine being in a relationship with these kinds of people either. How can any woman be with a man she knows considers her “less than?” It makes me cringe.

  119. what’s backward about this, nut? i’m not remotely claiming to know the ins and outs of how sperm freezing and unfreezing occurs but it’s worth a look. or what? is the idea that, after you strip away all of the bushtit, men cause 100% of all unplanned pregnancies just too much for you to handle?

    I’m not exactly sure what you’re getting at Rachel, but I will say I’m of the mind set all women should have the final decision over what happens to their bodies whether the man in her life agrees or not. As many have said already, there are options at his disposal to control his own fertility, i.e. those rubber things most men claim they don’t like to wear because they don’t stay hard.

    So I’m not really sure if you thought I was disagreeing (much like I do with parental/spousal notification laws and loudly) with the proposed law or not, but I most definitely am because it would be too hard to impose and then even harder to enforce for many of the reasons stated within the first 10 comments.

  120. a nut, it doesn’t matter if a man wears a condom or no. Because according to Bangnor, only women have the right to have sex if they don’t want to get pregnant, because women can have abortions. Since a condom is not 100% effective, he should remain abstinent until he is ready to have a child, in case he doesn’t want one and the woman decides she does.

  121. Because according to Bangnor, only women have the right to have sex if they don’t want to get pregnant, because women can have abortions. Since a condom is not 100% effective, he should remain abstinent until he is ready to have a child, in case he doesn’t want one and the woman decides she does.

    What is so difficult to understand about the fact that women are the ones who get pregnant? By virtue of biology, men will never have the option to have an abortion. Therefore, any steps they’d like to take to control their fertility must be exercised *before* any pregnancy might result. If it is supremely important to a man that (above all else) he not father a child, his only guaranteed option is to abstain.

    No one’s arguing that abstinence is the preferable long term option. Either you accept that no method of birth control is perfect (and that sexual partners are not always the paragon of honesty) and risk it, or you decide to forgo the risk.

  122. Since a condom is not 100% effective, he should remain abstinent until he is ready to have a child, in case he doesn’t want one and the woman decides she does.

    Except no one really said that he *has* to abstain. He has a wide variety of options – pursuing women who are more clear in their desire to abort / not have children, getting the (reversible) snip, having nonpenetrative sex, etc. It is a risk, and unsurprisingly a risk most men choose to take.

  123. It also has an exception for rape, but she needs to have filed a police report of the rape.

    When I was in high school, the local university (UT Knoxville) got caught:

    (A) Telling female students they must report sexual assaults to the college security, not the real police, and
    (B) Just happening to lose those reports whenever they were against members of the local cash machine known as the university football team.

    Tidy way of avoiding scandals that would have financially hurt the community. The rape exception to this bill is bad enough in that it requires rape victims to go through a second, and sometimes worse, trauma of reporting the crime to the police. But what if you do report the rape, only the local police are inept or complicit in covering crimes for certain individuals, and then there’s no record of your having reported?

    The whole point of this bill is to put wombs under the control of the male-dominated system. No, I take that back. The whole point of the bill is for a bunch of politicians to posture, win over some emotional voters, and distract everyone from the real stuff we ought to be looking at our government for.

  124. What is so difficult to understand about the fact that women are the ones who get pregnant?

    Oh my goodness, I must have missed something HUGE in the last 24 years I’ve been around. I had no idea that men couldn’t get pregnant. Thanks so much for enlightening me.

    The crappy thing about my involvement in this entire conversation is that, because of the ridiculous and nonsensical way that some people on this thread argue, it could easily seem to readers that I am for forced abortion, or anti-choice, etc… when in reality that’s not the case at all. I think the father SHOULD pay child support if he helped create the child. I certainly do not think anyone should be forced or guilted into an abortion. I certainly think the woman has the right to an abortion if she feels she should have one. I’m just trying to point out how, due to circumstances beyond anyone’s control, there are some options that women have that men don’t, and that sometimes thats can seem a bit unfair to men, especially if a woman is deceitful when it comes to birth control. It’s just an example that I thought was pretty relevant to questions asked before… But not that it matters, because there’s no changing how things are when it comes to biology. Then it got all kinds of messed up and I look like a whiny troll.

    Oh, well.

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