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Comparing Circumcisions

I’m pleased to see that this post hasn’t turned into a “What about the MENZ?!?!” shitshow. Unfortunately, the same thing can’t be said for Amanda’s post on the same topic, even though she specifically expressed her irritation with such comments. Just a dozen or so comments in, a dude shows up to inform everyone of the “fact” that female genital cutting is almost the same thing as male circumcision.

In a word, no.

First, let me say that I would not circumcise my male child. I personally think that altering someone’s genitals when they’re a baby and are unable to consent is seriously fucked up. I also understand that many parents are under the impression that circumcising boys is healthy, and so I can’t fault parents who have circumcised their sons. We all do our best. But I feel fairly strongly that circumcision is wrong when done without the consent of the person having their genitals altered.

It’s also worth pointing out that in some societies, male circumcision is a rite of passage into adulthood, not a surgery done in infancy — meaning that boys around the age of 12 are circumcised. I’m not arguing that circumcising a 12-year-old is worse than circumcising an infant, but there is something that seems more troubling about forcing someone to undergo a painful, involuntary surgery when they’re an age where they are fully conscious of the pain and will be able to remember it.

That does not, however, mean that male circumcision is anything like female circumcision.

Male circumcision involves removing foreskin. It may slightly decrease sexual sensitivity, but that’s hard to know, since most men are circumcised as infants or children. As an aside, I did know someone who was circumcised as an adult, and he said that it felt “different” but never said if it was better or worse. But no one argues that male circumcision takes away a man’s ability to feel sexual pleasure.

That is what female circumcision does. Clitoridectomy, the least bad of the four types of female genital cutting, splits or removes the clitoral hood, and/or removes part or all of the clitoris. Type II FGC, called excision, removes the clitoral hood, the clitoris, and most or all of the inner labia. What’s left of the inner labia are often sewn together. Type III, infibulation, is the removal of all external genitalia — the clitoris, the outer labia, the inner labia, everything. Wikipedia describes it like this:

Infibulation involves extensive tissue removal of the external genitalia, including all of the labia minora and the inside of the labia majora, leaving a raw open wound. The labia majora are then held together using thorns or stitching and the girl’s legs are tied together for two – six weeks, to prevent her from moving and allow the healing of the two sides of the vulva. Nothing remains of the normal anatomy of the genitalia, except for a wall of flesh from the pubis down to the anus, with the exception of a pencil-size opening at the inferior portion of the vulva to allow urine and menstrual blood to pass through, see Diagram 1D. This type of FGC is often carried out by an elderly matron or midwife of the village on girls between the ages of two and six, without anaesthetic and under unhygienic conditions.

A reverse infibulation can be performed to allow for sexual intercourse (often by the husband using a knife on the wedding night) or when undergoing labor, or by female relatives, whose responsibility it is to inspect the wound every few weeks and open it some more if necessary. During childbirth, the enlargement is too small to allow vaginal delivery, and so the infibulation must be opened completely and restored after delivery. Once again, the legs are tied together to allow the wound to heal, and the procedure is repeated for each subsequent act of intercourse or childbirth. When childbirth takes place in a hospital, the surgeons may preserve the infibulation by enlarging the vagina with deep episiotomies. Afterwards, the patient may insist that her vulva be closed again so that her husband does not reject her.

Even calling that “circumcision” doesn’t really do it justice. And that is why the Pandagon thread makes me want to hit something.

Writing about female genital cutting and asking that we stay on the topic of female genital cutting is not the same as defending, excusing or giving a pass to male circumcision, the same way that writing about rape and not mentioning groping is not the same as defending, excusing or giving a pass to groping. This isn’t even analogous to the “what about men who are raped” conversation — at least there, we’re talking about the same thing, just on a different scale. Yes, male and female circumcision both involve altering someone’s genitals without their consent. But that does not make them analogous, and bringing up male circumcision in every post about female genital cutting is not only tiresome, but incredibly offensive.


104 thoughts on Comparing Circumcisions

  1. I was circumcised as an infant, and I can still have an orgasm, as well as the vast majority of my genitalia intact.

    That is not true for women after FGM.

    I really don’t understand people sometimes. This is like arguing whether it’s worse to steal a thousand dollars or ten dollars. Yeah, both are stealing and both are wrong, but they’re orders of magnitude different.


  2. I read in dark, the different stages of FGC and then the complete and total infibulation of a woman who can request her vulva been sewn back up by a surgeon after repeated deliveries so her spouse won’t reject her….these practices take place in Africa, the Middle East and other parts of the world and they are, no question, totally barbaric despite being cultural practices. Why does the culture involved, choose to cut out all a woman’s external genitalia. Is it for her spouse’s benefit only? Is there shame involved. I personally think it’s absolutely disgusting and treats a woman like a non-sexual human being. As to the male here who compares it to male circumcision, it doesn’t sound like he knows too much and needs to be educated. Excising a small amount of a male child’s glans is hardly the same as cutting off a woman’s entire genitalia.

  3. Oh jesus. I didn’t know what FGM entailed before, in quite that level of detail (and what I already knew was already one of the most sickening things I knew).

  4. the same thing can’t be said for Amanda’s post on the same topic, even though she specifically expressed her irritation with such comments.

    Bloggers don’t get the comments they want; they get the comments their readers want to make. One would expect Dorkasaurus Regina to have realized that by now.

    Yes, male and female circumcision both involve altering someone’s genitals without their consent.

    Structurally, female hatcheting is the equivalent of chopping off the penis (and scrotum, but it’s not quite feasible to remove that and leave the testicles in place).

    As far as male circumcision goes, it doesn’t affect orgasm one way or the other. It’s entirely possible to have a good orgasm without a foreskin, and it’s entirely possible to have a bad orgasm with a foreskin. It’s far more difficult to have any kind of orgasm with no genitals at all.

  5. It’s desperately depressing that this post is even necessary. The differences you point out are extremely basic physical facts that one can learn from twenty or so seconds of research. People should understand that they’ll be well-served by instituting a voluntary minimal amount of research before spouting off on an issue.

  6. If FGM involved only the removal of the clitoral hood without any damage to the clitoris itself, then it might be possible to equate the two practices. Anyone doing so for any procedure more extensive than that is either ignorant or trying to sell some brand of bullshit.

  7. Actually a recent study was done that showed that the circumcised penis is far less sensitive than the intact one. This is one issue I’ll have to disagree with you on. And maybe its because I have sons and after witnessing the brutal circumcision of my first I threw myself into learning more about it. Thankful it spared my second.

    However, I am a human being and therefore fight as passionately for all people reguardless of gender to have the genitals they were born with. With that its about damn time Egypt stepped up. Hopefully more and more areas will follow suit and more humans will be spared these unnessisary and barberic rituals.

  8. Oh, as if ‘less sensitive’ is even relatively analogous to ‘reduced to nothing but a receptacle for semen and portal for birthing babies’.

  9. Actually a recent study was done that showed that the circumcised penis is far less sensitive than the intact one.

    Howzabout you actually read the post instead of glossing it as “blah blah blah ALL ABOUT MY SONS blah blah”.

  10. It’s desperately depressing that this post is even necessary. The differences you point out are extremely basic physical facts that one can learn from twenty or so seconds of research. People should understand that they’ll be well-served by instituting a voluntary minimal amount of research before spouting off on an issue.

    It shouldn’t be necessary, but it is.

    Oddly enough, I was on my way back here, as part of the whole Pandagon thread, to find a post I did on how FGM affects childbirth, particularly in young mothers who’ve had extensive procedures and whose hips are still narrow, since the procedure created conditions in which labor was made more difficult, and fistulas more likely.

    I felt it necessary to post a warning that anyone who attempted to talk about male circumcision in the context of this post better be able to show that men could give birth out their urethras, otherwise I’d be banning their asses.

    The warning was fine for that thread, but I did get one whining later that I’d censored the conversation.

  11. “The warning was fine for that thread, but I did get one whining later that I’d censored the conversation.”

    …did they explain how they came to that conclusion?

  12. I’m sorry, but only a moron would suggest the two are even remotely equivalent. I don’t even think it’s like rape vs. groping or stealing ten thou vs. stealing ten dollars. It’s like rape vs. being given a car, or stealing an irreplaceable diamond or heirloom vs. winning the lottery. Here’s the 411, as the kids are saying, on male circumcision, folks: You still got your junk. Maybe you’re all emo about not having some useless flap of skin at the end that collects piss and STDs, but you still got your junk. I’m “cut,” as they say in the ads at the back of the free weeklies, and I have to say, never have I thought, you know, my penis just isn’t sensitive enough. And here’s a newsflash: an orgasm is caused by muscles all up in there, not by your dick. Being circumcised doesn’t affect your ability to orgasm one bit, nor does it diminish the quality in any way. So even aside from the almost incomprehensible pain involved in the actual procedure of female circumcision, there is no comparing having your clitoris cut out to having a tiny flap of skin nipped off your pecker.

    If I were somehow magically transformed into an uncut mofo, I doubt it would bother me very much (I can’t imagine anything making me any less narcissistically attached to my Johnson). But if, again through the power of magic, I had my druthers, I like my member fine the way it is. Maybe I’d try it out uncut for a little bit, see how it felt, but I’m not buying for a second that I’m supposed to think there’s something wrong with my dick the way it is. I’m not trying to be whiny about that, because the idea is so ludicrous I can’t be offended, but seriously, let’s let people make their own calls about whether or not some horrible atrocity has been committed against their wang (except circumcised gents who think they’re in the same boat as women whose genitals have been mutilated: you need to shut the fuck up).

  13. There was a lot of ignorance on that thread. A lot.

    Though through Googling for various pieces of information, I did find out that FGM dates back to the ancient Egyptians, which is why it’s in the particular parts of Africa and the Middle East that it is, and why it’s a cross-religion practice. People in those regions are likely to practice FGM whether they’re Christian, Muslim, animist or other. New information is always good, even if it’s depressing.

  14. I’m gonna risk this.

    FGM is terrible, but it is far removed from the experience of most people who read blogs. People have a tendency to be most concerned about their immediate experience, and to understand it best. Thus, people who are angry about routine infant circumcision will bring it up whenever FGM is mentioned.

    I’ll admit that I’m periodically tempted to do it, but I restrain myself. It is offensive to compare the two, and terribly off topic. Similarly, I won’t complain about infant girls getting their ears pierced on threads about RIC. Both anger me, but there is a HUGE difference between the two procedures.

  15. Maybe you’re all emo about not having some useless flap of skin at the end that collects piss and STDs.

    It’s not supposed to do that. You may want to talk with a doctor about phimosis.

    Also I just now remembered Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s name, which was bugging me for a few hours.

  16. I’m glad I’m so fondly remembered. Maybe someday someone will even bother to get my point. (Ah, dreams…)

    Let me try this from another angle. Noam Chomsky once wrote about the philosophical challenge facing a Western dissident concerned about human rights during the Cold War. Said person could focus on the suffering behind the Iron Curtain, where the impact of such concern would be extraordinarily muted. Or that person could focus their efforts on combating the barbarities of Western imperialism, where proximity and partially operant democratic structures would permit the person to have a vastly greater impact.

    Most forms of FGM are, indeed, worse than male circumcision. But the conclusion that male circumcision is therefore unimportant, trivial, or not comparable simply doesn’t follow, and betrays an ignorance of what the procedure actually entails.

    While most forms of FGM are worse than male circumcision, they also (largely) take place in Third World countries where most Westerners’ influence is remote and extremely limited. To be clear, I certainly applaud the efforts of any Western activist who is able help eliminate the horror of genital cutting wherever it takes place, and if a woman is moved by feelings of world sisterhood to board a plane or write a big check, great!

    But if one is concerned about all of humanity and not just those who share your particular genital configuration, it takes much less than that to have an impact against genital cutting here in the U.S. … simple things like respect, an open mind, and an awareness of what is means when something it taking place in your own back yard.

    Here’s a good link for anyone who is convinced there is no medical basis for concern about the impact of male circumcision.

  17. Most forms of FGM are, indeed, worse than male circumcision. But the conclusion that male circumcision is therefore unimportant, trivial, or not comparable simply doesn’t follow, and betrays an ignorance of what the procedure actually entails.

    It is not comparable. While EVERY medical procedure carries a risk, it can be minimised when it is done by a qualified person. So it certainly is not the best idea to have a circumcision done by an old rabbi who can’t see properly anymore but refuses to accept that.

    Anyway, circumsising boys is routinely done for medical reasons. Sometimes the foreskin is too tight and causes pain, it’s a way to prevent STD’s and it’s decreasing the risk of getting infected with HIV. None, I say it again NONE of this reasons are true when you talk about FGM.

  18. Also, no one here is saying that male circumcision is always a good thing. If you read the original post you will see that Jill disagrees with it herself.

    What we are saying is that they are not the same. If male circumcision involved removing the foreskin and the entire glans, then it would be comparable to some of the less extreme versions of FGM.

    You might lose a bit of sensitivity having your foreskin removed, but at least you don’t get sliced open on your wedding night.

    Jill, if you’ll permit me, I could link to a site showing images of FGM? I don’t know what your policy is of pictures of genitals, though. But perhaps seeing what FGM does might make it clearer for some people.

    And again, I disagree with male circumcision unless done with the person’s consent or for medical reasons.

  19. The Pandagon post was badly framed to start with, spending a total of three words on FGM and approx. 65 on anti-circ advocacy. The topic started off ambiguous and got worse as trolls popped in.

  20. Most forms of FGM are, indeed, worse than male circumcision. But the conclusion that male circumcision is therefore unimportant, trivial, or not comparable simply doesn’t follow, and betrays an ignorance of what the procedure actually entails.

    Show me where people are arguing that it’s unimportant or trivial and then you will have a point. Neither Amanda nor I made that argument.

  21. I think the post is very disingenuous. It only works because Jill doctors her source to avoid the issue and then compares the most minor results of MC with the most serious results of FGC

    Jill says Type I FGC is this:

    Clitoridectomy, the least bad of the four types of female genital cutting, splits or removes the clitoral hood, and/or removes part or all of the clitoris.

    Wikipedia, her source, says it’s this:

    Clitoridectomy involves the removal or splitting of the clitoral hood, termed “hoodectomy”, with or without excision of the clitoris

    Which is a blatantly obvious massaging of the facts to fit her argument. Going by the actual definition FGC Type I without excision and MC are exactly analogous, and MC more severe since more tissue is removed. And that’s without even going into the most serious outcomes of MC, or the more drastic forms of MC, or that transexuality blurs the two.

    Writing about female genital cutting and asking that we stay on the topic of female genital cutting is not the same as defending, excusing or giving a pass to male circumcision…

    I’m really not sure. Like it or not, when campaigning against FGC started an entirely political decision was made to draw a sharp distinction between the two. It’s a decision I completely support. There is no hope of doing anything about MC and if the two are seen as analogous damage it will damage the campaign to supress FGC. But it is just a noble lie, it’s not true that there is no comparison. And it’s not true that insisting that they’re different doesn’t give a pass to MC – it means Egypt can ban FGC without worrying about Islam – and that’s the whole reason for the distinction.

  22. People are just not reading, are they? Somehow when the topic turns to genitals (and god forbid, children’s genitals),sanity and the whole notion of bothering to understand what’s being said just fly out the window. I mean, come on. FGM has been talked about as a serious problem for decades, and it affects 130 MILLION women, according to Amnesty. Is there really any excuse for people to make asinine comments based mostly on the fact that two things are both called “circumcision” without knowing the details? I don’t think so. Look, you don’t have to be a fan of male circumcision (I’m not) to get what is going on here: opponents of male circumcision are trying to equate and conflate these two practices in order to gain political leverage for opposition to male circumcision. Even though I sympathize with their position, and realize there’s not as much opposition to male circumcison as maybe there should be, this is still a dishonest, selfish, manipulative and despicable tactic.

  23. The mere idea that removing the foreskin is equivalent to having one’s clitoris and labia completely removed is insulting and absurd. As I said to the first idiot who tried this argument on me (thirty years ago!):

    “Dude. You can still come.”

  24. “FGM is terrible, but it is far removed from the experience of most people who read blogs. People have a tendency to be most concerned about their immediate experience, and to understand it best. Thus, people who are angry about routine infant circumcision will bring it up whenever FGM is mentioned.”

    If only there was someplace they could go on the internet that’s devoted to male circumcision, why it’s wrong, and how it can be stopped. It’s such a shame that the people who feel compelled to bring it up every time FGM is mentioned don’t have someplace where they can discuss it in an on-topic fashion without being intellectually dishonest, spreading disinformation or flat-out lies, or distracting from a discussion about a much more traumatic, dangerous, and debilitating procedure. I feel for them and their lack of a voice outside of FGM threads. Truly, they are the ones who are most downtrodden in this instance.

  25. C’mon, Jill. Don’t you know that not wanting to talk about male circumcision while discussing FGM is tantamount to trivializing it?

    Here’s the post
    I was looking for, which contains a link to the WHO’s page on FGM, a source considerably more reliable than Wikipedia:

    Type I – excision of the prepuce, with or without excision of part or all of the clitoris;
    Type II – excision of the clitoris with partial or total excision of the labia minora;
    Type III – excision of part or all of the external genitalia and stitching/narrowing of the vaginal opening (infibulation);
    Type IV – pricking, piercing or incising of the clitoris and/or labia; stretching of the clitoris and/or labia; cauterization by burning of the clitoris and surrounding tissue;
    scraping of tissue surrounding the vaginal orifice (angurya cuts) or cutting of the vagina (gishiri cuts);
    introduction of corrosive substances or herbs into the vagina to cause bleeding or for the purpose of tightening or narrowing it; and any other procedure that falls under the definition given above.

    The most common type of female genital mutilation is excision of the clitoris and the labia minora, accounting for up to 80% of all cases; the most extreme form is infibulation, which constitutes about 15% of all procedures.

    IOW, less than 5% of all instances of FGM are of a type which is even remotely analogous to male circumcison, and that’s for a type in which the clitoris may or may not be excised along with the hood. In 95% of the cases, the clitoris IS removed, and the labia are either removed or removed and sewn together.

    So can we please stop comparing the two?

    Of course, even with the threat of summary banning for what-about-the-menz comments, I still had some guy show up defending the practice and claiming that excision of the clitoris isn’t so bad at all, since the clitoris extends into the body.

  26. About FGM, it seems to me that there are a few things we can do. First, we can support the organizations promoting change in the affected countries. One example is the site “Iranian and Kurdish Women’s Rights Organisation. Click on the link on the left side of their home page (under “Campaigns”) – “Kurdistan: Stop FGM”. There’s a copy of a petition, which starts thusly:

    To the esteemed Head of Kurdistan Region Parliament, Presidency of Kurdistan Region, Kurdistan Region Counsel of Ministers

    We ask your esteemed assistance to issue legislation to stop female genital mutilation in Kurdistan and to establish practical procedures to end this abnormal practice….

    The rest of the petition is important to read. I believe they have some 1,300 signatures to date.

    This site’s other main concentrations are assisting women and girls threatened by domestic violence, or alleged to have committed acts which could get them executed (including “honor” killings), and to resist forced deportations of women and girls back to home countries where they’ll be in danger.

    I don’t think it’s cultural arrogance on our part (I mean, those of us who are Western non-Muslims) to support organizations like this. They have telephone bills and web-site expenses, and emergency funds to replenish. This is a thing we can do.

    Okay, I am notorious for screwing up links, but here goes: ikwro.org.uk

    Another thing we can do is investigate our own countries’ current policies on deportation of women back to dangerous situations.

    A third thing is to inquire of our own health care providers what their position is on counseling clients who either report FGM, or request a surgeon to do it “safely”, and what the state of the art is in surgical repair of mutilations.

  27. Show me where people are arguing that it’s unimportant or trivial and then you will have a point.

    *sigh*

    Well, gosh, there’s a challenge. Where oh where will I be able to find people who say male circumcision is trivial or unimportant? Google help me now!

    How about here? “This is like arguing whether it’s worse to steal a thousand dollars or ten dollars.”

    Or here? “As to the male here who compares it to male circumcision, it doesn’t sound like he knows too much and needs to be educated. Excising a small amount of a male child’s glans is hardly the same as cutting off a woman’s entire genitalia.”

    Or here? “It’s like rape vs. being given a car, or stealing an irreplaceable diamond or heirloom vs. winning the lottery.”

    And if you don’t think those comments — indeed, the bulk of the comments on this thread and Pandagon’s — are dismissive of the importance of the issue of male circumcision, then you and I do not share a common understanding of what it means to be ‘trivializing’, Jill. I am well aware that you personally are not close-minded about the issue and have some awareness of how male circumcision may not be a good thing. I would love to believe that your opposition to the procedure might open some eyes here. But you do seem to have trouble grasping just how much of a blind spot Feministers and Pandagonians as a whole have about it.

    FGM and male circumcision are not the same thing. Most forms of FGM are significantly worse. FGM happens to women, male circumcision victimizes men. And FGM takes place overwhelmingly outside of the First World, while male circumcision is commonplace primarily in the U.S.

    But there is also another big difference between the two, a reason which is glossed over in these repeated “gosh isn’t it horrible that people raise the circumcision issue when we mention FGM” threads, and a reason why the issue tends to be raised:

    EVERYONE* KNOWS THAT FGM IS WRONG. Huge swaths of people are ignorant [profanity deleted] when it comes to male circumcision.

    (*98%+ of the readership of Feministe and Pandagon.)

  28. The mere idea that removing the foreskin is equivalent to having one’s clitoris and labia completely removed is insulting and absurd.

    You can only make that point because you insist that in men that area is left alone while in women it is completely removed. That is not true. In MC part of the glans is removed (for the same reason you can’t behead someone without removing part of their neck) and FGC doesn’t remove the internal clitoris. They’re both partial excision.

  29. Thanks for writing this. I think I may have to forward this to a male friend of mine, as one of his more infuriating ways of reminding me of his inescapable male privilege and subsequent male ignorance is to resort to the “What about the MENZ?!?” argument. It really does seem to come from a place of not wanting to lose the focus of attention, of not being able to handle women’s issues being foregrounded or solely focused upon. ‘Cause guys have it just as bad, right? Yeah, right.

  30. FGC doesn’t remove the internal clitoris

    Actually, Nik, often the woman performing FGC will indeed scoop out the inner clitoris with her fingernail. So, wrong.

  31. In MC part of the glans is removed (for the same reason you can’t behead someone without removing part of their neck) and FGC doesn’t remove the internal clitoris. They’re both partial excision.

    Except that the foreskin does not bear any relation to the neck whatsoever.

    Ballgame, do you have a bot searching for the word “circumcision” or something?

  32. tell me, nik, how exactly would you go about stimulating that part of the clitoris that’s inside the body?

    Any in any case, as has been illustrated multiple times above, simple removal of the clitoral hood is one of the rarest forms of FGM.

    You seem to be under the impression that, overall, FGM doesn’t alter the genitals much more than male circumcision. I was going to wait for Jill’s approval but I realise she’s probably busy and this seems to be going on so much so…

    http://www.moid.org/ed/female_genital_mutilation.jpg
    http://wiki.bmezine.com/index.php/Female_Circumcision
    http://www.artsandopinion.com/2006_v5_n2/robinson-fgm.htm

    The above links all include images showing FGM, in case you wanted to take a closer look. In case anyone here is of a sensitive nature, please note these images show both healed and fresh FGM and are a little gritty.

  33. “They’re both partial excision.”

    Well, I guess that explains why 75% of circumcised men can’t reach orgasm.

  34. I think the post is very disingenuous. It only works because Jill doctors her source to avoid the issue and then compares the most minor results of MC with the most serious results of FGC

    Jill says Type I FGC is this:

    Clitoridectomy, the least bad of the four types of female genital cutting, splits or removes the clitoral hood, and/or removes part or all of the clitoris.

    Wikipedia, her source, says it’s this:

    Clitoridectomy involves the removal or splitting of the clitoral hood, termed “hoodectomy”, with or without excision of the clitoris

    Which is a blatantly obvious massaging of the facts to fit her argument.

    Dude, don’t blame me if you can’t read. Compare:

    “Clitoridectomy, the least bad of the four types of female genital cutting, splits or removes the clitoral hood, and/or removes part or all of the clitoris.”

    For the slow, that means that Type I splits OR removes the clitoral hood. It might ALSO remove all or part of the clitoris.

    Wki said this: “Clitoridectomy involves the removal or splitting of the clitoral hood, termed “hoodectomy”, with or without excision of the clitoris.”

    In other words, the exact same thing, just phrased differently.

    I know this is tough, but hey, the fifth grade was hard for me too.

  35. And if you don’t think those comments — indeed, the bulk of the comments on this thread and Pandagon’s — are dismissive of the importance of the issue of male circumcision, then you and I do not share a common understanding of what it means to be ‘trivializing’, Jill. I am well aware that you personally are not close-minded about the issue and have some awareness of how male circumcision may not be a good thing. I would love to believe that your opposition to the procedure might open some eyes here. But you do seem to have trouble grasping just how much of a blind spot Feministers and Pandagonians as a whole have about it.

    No, the point is, WHY DOES EVERYTHING COME BACK TO MEN, MEN, MEN.

    Why do you have to make every thread about YOU YOU YOU????

    That’s the point, as far as I am concerned. Do men have a self-centered GENE or something? Why does every thread about every issue, even in self-defined FEMINIST space, come back to you? WOMAN KILLED = men are killed too! (really?) WOMAN DENIED JOB = men are denied jobs, too! (really?) and now WOMAN HAVE CLITS CUT OFF = men are circumcised too! (really?)

    This is a feminist blog, and should not have to wipe narcissistic baby boys’ asses every time a subject is brought up. YES YES YES, we know, YOU CAN ALWAYS TRUMP US WITH YOUR SUFFERING.

    Now, that I have admitted this officially, no reason to go on and on about it, so STFU.

  36. Going by the actual definition FGC Type I without excision and MC are exactly analogous, and MC more severe since more tissue is removed. And that’s without even going into the most serious outcomes of MC, or the more drastic forms of MC, or that transexuality blurs the two.

    More tissue removed does not equal more serious. Try again. The sensitivity, for example, matters more than the amount.

    And there is a huge difference between splitting the clitoral hood and removing the clitoris, even though they’re both listed under Type I. Clitoridectomy — as in, the removal of the clitoris, not just the hood — is the most common type of FGM. Splitting the hood and not doing any harm to the clitoris is (a) relatively rare, and (b) difficult, especially when you consider that the majority of these surgeries are not being performed in hospitals and that they’re being done on pre-pubescent girls. To pretend that FGC is usually just like MC is absurd, and it makes you sound like a real asshole.

    Also consider that male circumcision, while variable to a degree, is almost always only the removal of foreskin.

    “Writing about female genital cutting and asking that we stay on the topic of female genital cutting is not the same as defending, excusing or giving a pass to male circumcision…”

    I’m really not sure. Like it or not, when campaigning against FGC started an entirely political decision was made to draw a sharp distinction between the two. It’s a decision I completely support. There is no hope of doing anything about MC and if the two are seen as analogous damage it will damage the campaign to supress FGC. But it is just a noble lie, it’s not true that there is no comparison. And it’s not true that insisting that they’re different doesn’t give a pass to MC – it means Egypt can ban FGC without worrying about Islam – and that’s the whole reason for the distinction.

    Actually, no, it’s not. It’s kind of line the distinction between tearing a fingernail off — painful, not something that should happen, bad — and sometimes tearing off a fingernail, but usually chopping off your whole hand, and occasionally ripping off your entire arm. Comparable? Uh… kind of. Equatable? Not on your life.

    You know, I don’t flip shit on commenters very often because I usually do think that people try to argue in good faith, but Nik, you’re a fucking asshole. The arguments you’re making are so thoroughly indicative of your misogyny and ignorance that you are damn lucky you’re making them online and not to my face. I don’t have much of a temper, but I am fucking livid right now.

    I’m livid in large part because — unlike, I suspect, you — I have sat down with a young woman, younger than myself, who survived FGM. As part of my job in providing her with certain services, I had to ask her about it. In detail. I had to ask her what the people in her community do to little girls. I sat there while she cried and told me that she doesn’t “feel things like normal girls.” I listened while she told me about having her clitoris and her inner and outer labia cut off, then had her vagina sewn shut so that the man her father sold her into marriage with could cut her open on their wedding night. I sat there with the knowledge that she would have to undergo surgery to be able to have sex, if she ever could without infection.

    So, yeah, I’m impatient right now. And this conversation is REALLY pissing me off.

  37. And if you don’t think those comments — indeed, the bulk of the comments on this thread and Pandagon’s — are dismissive of the importance of the issue of male circumcision…

    There is no such issue of male circumcision, it’s about poor execution. To quote Wikipedia again: While the risk of complications in a competently performed medical circumcision is very low, complications resulting from poorly carried out circumcisions, post-operative bleeding, and infection can be catastrophic.
    Would you have heart surgery by an unqualified person?

    Circumcision may be used to treat inflammation of the glans penis and penile cancer.
    It’s a procedure that can be necessary. How often is FGM necessary to prevent disease? Yea right NEVER, it just causes infections, inflammation and all too often leads to death.

    Circumcision and FGM are like getting you ear pierced (can go terribly wrong with unsterile needles) and having big pieces or the whole ear removed (no use in it – ever).

  38. “There is no hope of doing anything about MC”

    Why do people keep acting like they’re Don fucking Quixote when they take on the unconquerable monster that is male circumcision? The percentage of male infants circumcised in this country has taken a fairly direct nosedive from nigh-universal to what, 54% in the past decade alone?

    If Egypt could manage a similar feat when it came to FGM, people would be throwing a goddamned party and (hopefully) redoubling support of the teachers and organizations who’d managed to educate and agitate the populace out of the practice. As it stands, I imagine it’s going to be much slower going in Egypt even if the government really means it this time, and the religious authorities all throw their weight behind it while pointing out to all and sundry that it’s a specifically unMuslim procedure, and the government mounts a direct campaign to inform people that it’s not only unnecessary but actively destructive to their daughters’ health and future fertility.

  39. Loss of sexual function in FGM is a feature, not a bug.

    It’s the opposite in male circumcision — and if it weren’t, the practice wouldn’t have lasted very long, would it?

  40. Male circumcision simply isn’t that big a deal. A few bits of foreskin, a fully functional penis after it heals… It is really Not A Big Deal. (I’m influenced by the U.S. hospitals’ surgical procedures and cleanliness here.) So if you want someone to argue that it’s unimportant and/or trivial, I’m your man 😉

    As I said in a thread on Alas: A lot of it’s an issue of perception, driven by semantics. When people use the term “female circumcision” then folks don’t think much of it–“circumcision” most commonly refers to cutting of the foreskin, and the men who claim to have had ill effects from circumcision are a small minority.

    When people say “female genital mutilation” then it doesn’t sound like something similar at all. Which, obviously, it is not.

  41. Who came up with the Type I, Type II, etc. schema anyway? I doubt it was the people who actually perform these procedures.

  42. One would expect Dorkasaurus Regina to have realized that by now.

    What are we, two years old? And just because a reader wants to make an asinine comment that does not make its asininity go away. Christ on a cracker!

  43. And let’s get one thing straight. MC is, and has always been, removal of mere extraneous tissue. There are ethical problems involved in doing it, sure, but FGM is an amputation. The two are not equal by any stretch of the imagination.

  44. And if you don’t think those comments — indeed, the bulk of the comments on this thread and Pandagon’s — are dismissive of the importance of the issue of male circumcision…

    Shorter version: “My having a small flap of skin surgically removed when I was an infant is far more important than girls dying from FGM.”

  45. Actually, Nik, often the woman performing FGC will indeed scoop out the inner clitoris with her fingernail.

    God that is sickening.

    Why do you have to make every thread about YOU YOU YOU????

    Daisy, I realize you were using the ‘royal you’ here, but since you quote me and I can only speak for myself: This past year I’ve left a grand total of two comments here at Feministe prior to this thread which specifically raises the issue of the comparability or non-comparability of FGM and circumcision.

    Jill: I think I’m in substantial agreement with you that Nik is misleadingly minimizing the degree of difference between male circumcision and the most common forms of FGM. Your description of your encounter with an FGM survivor is stomach-turning. However, I think your analogy that “male circumcision is to FGM” as “fingernail loss is to arm loss” is an example of trivializing male circumcision. I think a more apt analagy would be “male circumcision is to FGM” as “loss of a few fingers is to arm loss”.

    Ballgame, do you have a bot searching for the word “circumcision” or something?

    Taking your question at face value zuzu, no, just a regular reader of a number of feminist blogs who feels passionately about this issue. (I hope by answering I’m not making it “all about me”.) I think the adamant, consistent refusal of some feminists to see the issue of genital mutilation as a great opportunity to forge cross-gender alliances and firmly establish that feminism is about gender equality and not simply female advocacy to be, uh, puzzling.

    MC is, and has always been, removal of mere extraneous tissue.

    JackGoff, I love ya guy but here YOU ARE COMPLETELY WRONG. Please read the article from the British Journal of Urology that I cited. It’s in medicalese but you’re smart enough to get through it.

    And finally, Hugo? I noticed a typo in your comment.

    As a man who got circumcised at 37, and has more than ample experience “before and after” with no loss of sensation or other trouble — and as a feminist — I have a dog in this hunt, although of course my experience as one man having my own body altered has little bearing on the question of whether it’s OK to take a razor to the nerve-rich, unanaesthetized tissue of the sexual organ of a non-consenting infant, and will yield no light at all on whether such a procedure is traumatizing or has other unexamined psychological consequences given that this experience occurs at a time when the infant is establishing his first bond to another human being, and that my self-evaluation may be strongly influenced by a subconscious desire to see the operation as being successful and may not be at all representative of the physiological impact of the operation (especially given that documented published studies have come to different conclusions), and that therefore my experience is in some important aspects even less comparable to the issue of infantile circumcision than FGM is.

    There. Fixed it for you.

  46. It’s the opposite in male circumcision — and if it weren’t, the practice wouldn’t have lasted very long, would it?

    Well, to the contrary – the medical justification for male circumcision is that it would prevent masturbation.

    That’s a pretty clear indication that the sexual-pleasure-reducing aspect of male circumcision has been the point all along. Isn’t it?

    There are ethical problems involved in doing it, sure, but FGM is an amputation.

    Er, look. I think we need to scale back the rhetoric, here. The clitoris is a several-centimeters long organ that extends back behind the pelvic bone. To completely amputate it would require a surgeon, not somebody with a rusty razor. What’s being removed is the glans of the clitoris, but the organ is sensitive throughout.

    I was circumcised as an infant, and I can still have an orgasm, as well as the vast majority of my genitalia intact.

    That is not true for women after FGM.

    I’m sorry but this is another over-stated claim. From the Wikipedia article:

    Whether or not a woman who has undergone FGC can achieve an orgasm, especially those who have had their clitoris excised, is a question that tends to have more than one answer. Hanny Lightfoot-Klein traveled throughout The Sudan (where Type III is the prevalent form of FGC, ~90%) in the early 1980s asking women who had FGC this very question: “How often do you experience orgasm?” following sexual intercourse with their husband.[30] Many of the women had no idea what an orgasm was, but others interviewed (especially if the surgery excised less tissue) not only insisted that they did achieve orgasm, ranging from 90% of the time when they were young to 10% of the time once they had children, but were open to talking about their experiences. They were able to describe in great detail exactly what an orgasm meant to them. While pleasurable, what they describe sounds like very weak orgasms rather than the orgasms described by women who have not had genital cutting.

    If women who have been mutilated in this way can experience sensations that, when described, sound exactly like orgasms, then from what basis can we claim that female genital mutilation makes it impossible to have an orgasm?

    FGM is a barbaric practice, and all the stops should be pulled out to end this mutiliation forever. But those stops should be based on real information. The people above who are making such drastically overstated claims are doing so to trivialize male genital cutting by comparison, and that’s a practice that needs to stop, too.

    Why do you have to make every thread about YOU YOU YOU????

    Not every thread. But this is a thread about both male and female genital mutilation. Threads where FGM are discussed are abundant. How many threads are there – in the entire feminist community – for discussing the severity of the practice of male circumcision?

    What, I have to go over to the Male Rights Advocate assholes to talk about this? No thank you. There should be a place for feminists to discuss this issue without it being trivialized or dismissed. It would be nice to have a space where this issue could be discussed without it:

    1) being used as a vehicle to attack feminism (that’s how the debate goes among MRA’s)
    2) exposing the participants to charges of “wanting to steer the discussion away from women.”

    That’s not what this is about. It’s an issue that is of concern to some feminists; we’d like to be able to talk about it in a feminist way without being dismissed as misogynist whiners.

  47. Shorter version: “My having a small flap of skin surgically removed when I was an infant is far more important than girls dying from FGM.”

    It’s not. But for god’s sake, there’s hundreds of threads across the feminist internet about FGM.

    Do you think we could maybe once just talk about how genital mutilation happens to men, as well, without assholes like you making fun of our concern? Christ.

    I’d like the only acceptable space for this topic not to be run by the loathsome Male Rights Activists. I think there’s a space in feminism to talk about how the patriarchy’s loathing of sexual pleasure is occasionally played out on men’s bodies, too.

    Am I wrong? Please have an argument besides “you’re an idiot.”

  48. FGM happens to women, male circumcision victimizes men.

    happens to women
    victimizes men

    So that’s like how a woman who has sex is a slut and a man who has sex is a stud, then?

  49. Good catch, Nomie. There’s plenty of misogynistic assholes that are using the issue to crowd out discussion of FGM.

    But not everybody that objects to male circumcision is that way. I hope that’s something we can all agree on.

  50. nik, normally your “teh feminists SUCK!!!1!!!” arguments are way less stupid, incoherent and self-congratulatory than these. Try harder, please.

    And do we really need to get him off by giving him this much attention?

    Perhaps the best way to deal with “what about MEEEE?!” whiners is to totally misunderstand them. “Yes, I agree totally! It’s appalling that male todders in America have their penises totally cut off with a slit left for urine…and you do that so that men aren’t unfaithful to their wives? What a barbaric culture?”

  51. “Yes, I agree totally! It’s appalling that male todders in America have their penises totally cut off with a slit left for urine…and you do that so that men aren’t unfaithful to their wives? What a barbaric culture?”

    If “can still feel some sexual pleasure” is an argument that supports infant male circumcision, then you’re vulnerable to that argument being turned right back against you – since many women who undergo even clitorectomy still experience sexual pleasure and orgasm.

    Personally I don’t think how much sex you can still have later is an argument for any unnecessary surgery, but keep exploiting the victims of FGM by using them to shut down any discussion of circumcision in the US, by all means.

  52. If “can still feel some sexual pleasure” is an argument that supports infant male circumcision, then you’re vulnerable to that argument being turned right back against you – since many women who undergo even clitorectomy still experience sexual pleasure and orgasm.

    Oh, Jesus, Chet, you’re not over here, too, are you? Have you written your blog post yet?

    And 25% is not “many” by any stretch of the imagination. If only 25% of men who’d had IMC could get an erection, that would be more than enough for the practice to have been stopped 100 years ago.

  53. But for god’s sake, there’s hundreds of threads across the feminist internet about FGM.

    And interestingly enough, almost every single one of them gets taken over by men screaming about male circumcision.

    Thanks for posting the link, Hugo. I think I’ll be referring to your post a lot when the subject comes up again.

  54. Ok, BG, I understand that there is a significant amount of erogenous nerves in the foreskin (something I had no idea about, being circumcised). I shouldn’t have said it that way, but the argument remains. FGM would be similar to circumcision if the entire head of the penis was lopped off. That is not the case.

    I am strongly against both practices, but surely it can be seen that every thread devoted to FGM, when they always seem to turn to male circumcision, wears thin on people who want to discuss ways to combat FGM in areas that it is prevalent. I do think that some focus should be given to the practice of infant circumcision, but why is this necessarily a topic that hasL to be brought up every time FGM is brought up? I can’t see how that is valid.

    Oh, and Chet? My hand is a part of my arm. That doesn’t make its removal less of an amputation because I still have my arm.

  55. Do you think we could maybe once just talk about how genital mutilation happens to men, as well, without assholes like you making fun of our concern? Christ.

    Do you not have your own blog or something?

  56. Oh, Jesus, Chet, you’re not over here, too, are you?

    Oh, my bad, Mnem. Didn’t realize I didn’t have your permission.

    Do you think you could draw up a map or a list or something? I’d like to know where on the internet I’m allowed.

    Grow the fuck up, ok?

    And 25% is not “many” by any stretch of the imagination.

    25% is many. It’s just not most. But it’s a lot more than “none.”

    Oh, and Chet? My hand is a part of my arm. That doesn’t make its removal less of an amputation because I still have my arm.

    Right. But if you lost your index finger we wouldn’t say you had your hand amputated.

    FGM is a barbaric practice, but inaccuracy doesn’t do anybody any favors. What’s being amputated is the glans clitoris, not the entire clitoris itself. That comes with a commensurate loss of sexual pleasure, but it’s nowhere near as responsible for complete sexual dysfunction as the infibulation is.

    And interestingly enough, almost every single one of them gets taken over by men screaming about male circumcision.

    Considering that every thread on male circumcision I’ve ever seen everywhere else gets taken over by people screaming about how much worse women have it, I guess that makes us about even, doesn’t it?

  57. Well, ballgame, unlike an infant I have a lot of experience with being a sexually active man before and after circumcision. And in terms of sensitivity, there’s no difference — which is exactly what the urologist promised. In terms of no more risk of frenular tearing, it’s a hell of a lot better.

    Boys who are circumcised as infants don’t get to have the before/after experience I had. It may be true that we ought to give folks the choice I had.

    But I have yet to see the testimony from the woman who has undergone infibulation as an adult, or a clitoridectomy as an adult, saying “Yeah, sex is pretty much the same and I can have a fab orgasm just as easily as before.” (!) My ability to be intimate and delight in intimacy was not compromised. My body is not different in any significant way from your average man’s, and my circumcision (like most in this country) was done outpatient and healed within weeks.

    To compare the loss of foreskin to the loss of a clitoris is absurd, vile, and indefensible. And I’m in a much better position to make that case than most.

  58. If “can still feel some sexual pleasure” is an argument that supports infant male circumcision

    It’s a good thing that I didn’t make that argument, hm? But you go ahead and pretend that cutting a little girl’s vulva off is important only insofar as it allows us to talk about more important issues–male circumcision in the US.

    Oh, and my son is uncircumcised. So how about you and your sense of entitlement go sit on an an unsanitary razor blade, like the kind used to cut open infibulated women’s genitals so their husbands can fuck them?

  59. FGM is an awful thing… removing a woman’s ability to feel anything but wretched pain, placing her health at risk, marking her as a lower order of human being… but I didn’t know that the wound had to be attended every time she engaged in sex with her husband and that it so grossly interfered in childbirth.

    How awful to be tied up for so long… I imagine these women cope, but how? After all, if it is happening on such a large scale, and children are somehow being born and families raised and daily life carried out, how can they go out of their way for every act of sex and every birth?

    I just don’t understand how people can so disrupt the business of life for such a useless, destructive, awful tradition.

  60. As a man who got circumcised at 37, and has more than ample experience “before and after” with no loss of sensation or other trouble — and as a feminist — I have a dog in this hunt.

    My long post — with a rebuke to the men’s rights activists who insist on comparing FGM to circ — is here.

    For a second there, I thought Hugo was going to post a picture.

  61. For a second there, I thought Hugo was going to post a picture.

    Trust me, somewhere out there there are photos of the “before”, taken in moments of youthful indiscretion; these will appear to blackmail me at some point (if I am lucky enough to be worth blackmailing!)

    I am not providing the “after”.

  62. Yeah, if all your eyes saw at first was “My long post is here,” I can see why you might have thought the link was to a pictorial representation of the Schwyzerian schlong.

  63. chet, 25% may be more than “none” but that’s not exactly the point that is being made here. If you were one of a 75% of people who couldn’t because of alterations to your genitals, I’m sure you’d be pretty pissed, right? MC is not something all of us agree with, but at least complications are rare, and total or major loss of sexual pleasure is something which only occurs when something goes wrong. In most cases of FGM loss of sexual pleasure is one of the reasons for doing it, and complications are altogether too common.

    And it’s already been explained on here several times that in most cases all or most of the clitoris is removed, at the least. Even so, if you had “just the glans” removed from your penis, I’m sure having the rest of it left (the penis also extends into the body, right?) would be a great consolation to you.

    In addition to all of this there’s the control factor. FGM is a method of keeping young girls under their father’s control until a husband is found for them. It’s a means of preventing them from having a choice as to when and with whom they give up their virginity, of preventing them from having control over their own sexuality.

    I had a little look and found this…

    Sex becomes an ordeal for the victims of FGM since intercourse may only take place after gradual and painful dilation after mutilation. In some cases, cutting is necessary before intercourse can take place. This can be extremely painful, and even dangerous. The importance of the clitoris in experiencing sexual pleasure and orgasm is paramount, mutilation involving partial or complete clitoridectomy adversely affects sexual fulfilment. During childbirth, FGM has consequences not only for the mother but also for the child. Existing scar tissue on excised women may tear and infibulated women, whose genitals have been tightly closed, have to be cut to allow the baby to emerge. If no attendant is present to do this, perineal tears or obstructed labour can occur. Although the women may have experienced childbirth they are often re-infibulated to make them “tight” for their husbands. This constant cutting and re-stitching of a women’s genitals with each birth can result in tough scar tissue in the genital area.

    it was at http://www.gktgazette.com/2005/aug/features.asp if anyone wants to take a closer look.

    Oh, the site also notes a higher incidence of Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome in circumcised women.

  64. This is from a right leaning Libertarian.

    FGM is horrible and sickening
    Male Circumcsion (MCirc) is not

    FGM is specifically designed as a way to deny life-track choices to women
    MCirc does not

    FGM in its most common form destroys all practicle function of a body organ
    MCirc does not

    FGM is always involuntary on the patient
    MCirc is MOSTLY involuntary on the patient

    We need to Ban FGM….Kill it dead!

    While I am right of center on most political and economic issues these constant issues of female oppression on top of female burdens makes me demand for an exception to my no affim Action policy when it relates to Gender alone. Hell yes women should get everything they ask for within an otherwise strong capitolist system.

    And for the last issue, If one is not wanted on a thread how the hell would one think their opinion would do anything other then piss off the regular posters….. Makes me think that is the ultimate goal of rude Trolls. Polite trolls can make you think….

  65. Considering that every thread on male circumcision I’ve ever seen everywhere else gets taken over by people screaming about how much worse women have it, I guess that makes us about even, doesn’t it?

    Yes, two wrongs make a right is clearly a cogent argument in favor of trolling tactics.

  66. “FGC doesn’t remove the internal clitoris”

    Just for the record, in addition to the practice Jill documents, there are also a lot of places where FGC includes the insertion of burning needles into the excision site to be sure that the clitoral nerve is dead.

  67. “FGM is always involuntary on the patient”

    Again, for the record, that’s not true. There are documented cases where girls are excited to be cut — it can be framed to them as a coming of age time, and sometimes (in some places) is accompanied by a party and a lot of praise. I believe there are also times when adult women will choose the procedure.

    Talking about FGC as a monolith is really hard, IMO, because it’s practiced in a lot of different places, via different traditions, and for different reasons. It can make it difficult to generalize.

    However, as Zuzu points out upthread, it’s really super disingenuous to compare MC and FGC based on the idea that both involve removing the prepuce. She’s already given numbers — that only 5% of procedures that fall under FGC don’t involve cutting out the clitoris.

    I would imagine that the 5% is mainly composed of places (I believe Indonesia is one) where the ritual is for an infant’s clitoris to be nicked. There are also places where the top 1/4 inch or so of the clitoris is routinely removed. Even this latter does, if I recall correctly, cause more sexual loss of function than male circumcision, but it’s clearly less invasive.

    One thing to note about the 5% of procedures that involve something between drawing blood and removing the tip of the clitoris, is that some of these procedures are relatively new, and are responses to indigenous and international activism against FGC. Nicking the clitoris instead of removing it allows for ritual and bloodletting to be preserved, while not impairing the woman’s eventual sexual function. Activists in some spheres have been trying to move people toward nicking the clitoris, rather than removing it, for a long time.

    So, it’s not only disingenuous to pretend that the 5% of FGC which may (or may not) be analogous to male circumcision are in any way representative of the entirety of FGC — it is also disingenuous to suggest that activists who favor the elimination of FGC regard the procedures as similar. They don’t, at all.

  68. Correction:

    Even this latter does, if I recall correctly, cause more sexual loss of function than male circumcision, but it’s clearly less invasive [than clitorodectomy or infibulation].

  69. After all, if it is happening on such a large scale, and children are somehow being born and families raised and daily life carried out, how can they go out of their way for every act of sex and every birth?

    Someone at Pandagon pointed out that FGM is essentially a form of birth control and the most extreme forms show up in the places that can support the least number of people. In other words, making it incredibly difficult to concieve, carry, and birth a child is a feature, not a bug.

    There have been a few places where boys did undergo true “male genital mutilation” with stuff like their penis being flayed open viewed as a test of manhood. Some similar things still occur, but they’re nowhere near as widespread as FGM.

    Which, again, makes the guys who claim that their infant circumcision rises to the same level of mutilation as a boy who has his penis cut open really look like people with no sense of perspective.

  70. Not every thread. But this is a thread about both male and female genital mutilation. Threads where FGM are discussed are abundant. How many threads are there – in the entire feminist community – for discussing the severity of the practice of male circumcision?

    What, I have to go over to the Male Rights Advocate assholes to talk about this? No thank you. There should be a place for feminists to discuss this issue without it being trivialized or dismissed. It would be nice to have a space where this issue could be discussed without it:

    http://www.blogspot.com

    There ya go. Happy hunting!

  71. The most charitable interpretation is that the people who equate FGM and male circumcision are confused by the fact that FCM is often labeled with the euphemism “female circumcision.”

    The less charitable interpretation is that they’re idiots.

  72. The most charitable interpretation is that the people who equate FGM and male circumcision are confused by the fact that FGM is often labeled with the euphemism “female circumcision.”

    The less charitable interpretation is that they’re idiots.

  73. The Pandagon post itself distracts from the issue of FGM to me. A large chunk of the comments were more focused on male circumcision before the “what about the penises?!?!?!” crowd even arrived.

  74. I think we should always call it female genital mutilation or female genital cutting instead of female circumcision, so we don’t give people the idea they are equivalent.

  75. I think we should always call it female genital mutilation or female genital cutting instead of female circumcision, so we don’t give people the idea they are equivalent.

  76. Considering that every thread on male circumcision I’ve ever seen everywhere else gets taken over by people screaming about how much worse women have it, I guess that makes us about even, doesn’t it?

    I don’t believe you. Seriously, I have seen (and taken part in) discussions of circumcision all over the place without anyone ever mentioning FGM. As it should be, since the discussion is about circumcision, and FGM is a separate issue.

    Here’s one, where you might actually be able to influence people (parents, mostly mothers) making the decision. It’s a debate board, so all civil discussions are allowed:
    http://boards.babycenter.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?webtag=bcus1196

  77. Why do I think that the ones doing the loudest whining haven’t gone to look at the pictures that were posted upthread?

  78. Hello, Mnemosyne,

    Someone at Pandagon pointed out that FGM is essentially a form of birth control and the most extreme forms show up in the places that can support the least number of people. In other words, making it incredibly difficult to concieve, carry, and birth a child is a feature, not a bug.

    Maybe you are referring to this comment. I wouldn’t mind reading the original document which is quoted here, but I find very difficult to buy this evolutionary argument or the derivation to birth control. To begin with, do we really “know that an egg is often released at orgasm”? Excuse my ignorance, but I have never read that – I thought that the purely physiological function of female orgasm was still somehow a mystery. If FGM was ever thought as a form of birth control, it should be only too clear that it doesn’t work. But I have never read that it was meant to be so – and I’m much more ready to believe that a man who copulates with a mutilated woman essentially wants to be sure that she bears his offspring by making sex and childbirth a hell for her. That original feeling might be easily distorted to notions that unmutilated women are dirty or clitorises grow too large and engulf women’s vaginas, statements I’ve often read. Culture coming in aid of a brutal, domineering instinct.

    It seems to me that the original writer was trying, by recurring to evolution and physiology, to find a more “rational” explanation for raw, brutal misogyny and fears of female sexuality. But I’ll be thankful if you or someone else enlightens me about this topic.

  79. “I wouldn’t mind reading the original document which is quoted here, but I find very difficult to buy this evolutionary argument or the derivation to birth control.”

    It wouldn’t need to have anything to do with the orgasm/egg release theory to function as a form of birth control, or at least population control. It could have started as something similar to extant pre-marital tests of endurance or genital alteration–rituals potential spouses had to complete in order to prove their readiness–and then morphed into a method of controlling a girl before she reached fertility at all.

    If you eliminate the mechanism for female sexual pleasure and/or make it extremely difficult for her to have sex at all, you can much more easily control when she begins having sex. There’s no reason for her to have forbidden sex on the sly, she’d almost assuredly get caught if she’s infibulated, and rape is presumably more difficult if the victim needs to be prepared with a knife before penetration is even an option. Once you knock those things out of the box for 95% of fertile females, you can much more easily control when they begin having children.

    Given that sex is going to be extremely painful for her, she’ll have no reason to initiate it once married, and the man will be looking at a process that presents a legitimate risk to his wife each time it’s repeated. Even if he’s not deterred by humane considerations, the need to go through a long process prior to and the possibility of his wife/the mother of his children dying of infection after each act of coitus is likely to keep sex from becoming a routine feature of their lives, if only through the trouble he’d need to go to in order to find a suitable replacement.

    If population pressure means that the society is not sensitive to the preventable loss of a large number of girls and women, there’s nothing to prevent its continuance or mitigate its extremity.

  80. Amanda’s post received the criticism she expressly rejected *because* she rejected it. If she had directed the discussion towards FGM instead of prohibiting discussion of male circumcision, the resulting discussion would have differed. She incites; many react. Personally, I tend to only chime in on Pandagon when I disagree. The tone of that blog is adversarial and it affects how I respond.

  81. Amanda’s post received the criticism she expressly rejected *because* she rejected it.

    Ah, I see. She received it *because* she rejected it. She got it *because* she didn’t want it. She was asking for it *because* she declined it in advance. That’s very illuminating piece of reasoning that can be usefully extended to many other areas of life, and by “illuminating” I mean “makes me want to vomit.”

  82. To get personal: I have on my left upper arm a scar. I bear this mark since being a small child, when I was vaccinated without my consent.
    I think we should forget about this unimportant FGM crap and concentrate on fighting vaccination scars.

    More seriously, I regarded male circumcision always as a american eccentrity. When and why did you acquire this (nonreligious) custom?

  83. Amanda’s post received the criticism she expressly rejected *because* she rejected it. If she had directed the discussion towards FGM instead of prohibiting discussion of male circumcision, the resulting discussion would have differed.

    Not bloody likely, really. Just input “FGM” as a search term on any random feminist blog and read the responses.

  84. Thank you very much for your answer, preying mantis. I’m no social scientist at all, but let me venture that we understand birth control in a very different way from population control; the former would be a much more personal issue, the latter would be a pressure we would be almost unconscious of. Though I’m not suggesting at all that they are unrelated, especially since in this century there have appeared reliable methods (see China, for instance).

    I’ll take it, then, that the argument goes more or less like this: 1) extreme difficulty in coitus and childbirth deters couples from having sex; 2) less offspring as a result of 1 and frequent death in women and girls contributes to population control where resources are scarce. I still don’t take 1 very seriously; it seems an extremely roundabout (not to say extremely cruel) method of birth control. About 2, I’d have to see some statistics which correlate both circumstances – prevalence of FGM and need to contain population.

    I’ve been doing some research since I sent my first message, but have come nowhere (again, I’m no social scientist and don’t know very well where to look). The numbers related to deaths and illnesses, though, are frightful.

    On the other hand, you know what grates? The absence of men in all the documents I’ve read. Of course I’m anxious to read the female point of view: women who have undergone the procedure, women who have escaped it, women who have practised it. (There was even an anecdote in Pandagon which was a consoling fantasy, if nothing else.) But where are the men, in every other instance so ready to take the pulpit, in this horrifying tale? Who are the men who “benefit” from the practice, do they really demand it, does the grassroots work address them and how? Have they succeeded completely in effacing themselves and making us believe that this practice is a totally female habit they have nothing to do with?

    Other question which has been touched upon: the underground practice. Does anyone in Egypt seriously object to the ban because it will be done in “unsanitary” circumstances? I had assumed we all agree that the ban is a good thing, but do we really?

    Thank you again, preying mantis – you’ve given me some food for thought. I have to do some research in my own country (Spain). There was a couple of articles some time ago about children who disappear for “holidays” in Africa… and some gynecologists were confusedly talking about “respecting cultural differences”. Oh my.

  85. Double post. Very sorry.

    (I’ll take the chance: I respectfully beg Jill to open a new thread about male circumcision, maybe even male circumcision restricted to the United States! I promise I’ll participate and express my opposition to the practice! Please let nobody else answer to this. I’ve had enough.)

  86. we women should know by now that it is always, forever and amen, all about men.
    talk about abortion-men chime in on how someone else’s pregnancy affects them.
    talk about domnestic violence- men chime in on how their girlfriends yelled at them this one time.
    talk about FGM- men chime in on how they feel about their circumcisions.
    talk about rape- men insist that the victim should have been doing something differently.
    but for some reason women are the ones who bear the brunt of the whole selfish/narcissistic stereotyping. i really don’t get it.

  87. (I’ll take the chance: I respectfully beg Jill to open a new thread about male circumcision, maybe even male circumcision restricted to the United States! I promise I’ll participate and express my opposition to the practice! Please let nobody else answer to this. I’ve had enough.)

    Done.

  88. Thanks, Jill! I’ll follow your advice myself. I leave here an article which compares both procedures and calls them both circumcision. I’ve only had a look, but it seems to do a thorough analysis of the religious question. Here’s another comparison by the same author. I’m not saying I agree with what he writes, but it’s worth a reading.

    And now I’ll go to the previous thread.

  89. ” I had assumed we all agree that the ban is a good thing, but do we really?”

    No, not really. I’ve read some material suggesting the previous all-but-ban in Egypt was damaging to women’s health. I don’t know why this one wouldn’t be, too.

  90. There is a semantical problem with comparing FGM to male circumcision: Male circumcision refers to a fairly narrow class of surgeries, while FGM refers to such a wide spectrum that one end of the spectrum is vastly different from the other end.

    At one end of the FGM spectrum is the horror we are most familiar with, vaginas sewn mostly shut, clitori cut down or removed, unsanitary conditions, etc.

    At the other end of the FGM spectrum is the Harborview procedure:

    “It would be a small cut to the prepuce, the hood above the
    clitoris, with no tissue excised, and this would be conducted
    under local anesthetic for children old enough to understand the procedure and give consent in combination with informed consent of the parents,” said Harborview spokeswoman Tina Mankowski.

    Separate from the problem with semantics is the cultural bias which leads people to view performing what genuinely is analogous surgery as alternatively a horror or acceptable based merely on genital configuration.

    No matter what a persons genitals look like, they belong to that person alone, and nobody should cut them in the absence of a genuine medical indication.

  91. Soph,
    I meant that Amanda is deliberately controversial. She sparks the discussion.

    If you have strong opinions on a particular subject matter and someone tells you not to discuss it, doesn’t that sort of make you want to?

    So when Amanda says “don’t talk about male circumcision” I want to talk about it. And that doesn’t mean I think FGM and circumcision are the same thing or that we shouldn’t be trying to stop FGM. It just means I think male circumcision is fucked up and those of you who keep acting like it’s not a fucked up social norm that ought to be ended are deluding yourselves.

  92. Zuzu,

    I’m not saying the the haters wouldn’t have crashed the party. I’m saying the discussion would have differed. Take responsibility for publishing anti-feminist thought when it’s on your own fucking blog.

    Bloggers direct the discussions in their comments sections. You can choose to publish the crap or you can refrain from publishing it. It’s your choice.

  93. For what it’s worth, my thoughts on FGM and male circumcision belong in the same class of opinions that my thoughts on “corrective surgeries” for intersex babies and breast implants for teen girls: unnecessary, potentially harmful surgeries done in order to satisfy gender social norms make me want to puke,

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