Clavicle Chic

145 thoughts on Clavicle Chic

1. I hate that billowy, shapeless shirts and dresses are in right now. Unless you are tall and have long legs poking out underneath, they make you look short, shapeless and like you’re wearing a tent.

   I wish it hadn’t taken me so many years to figure out that wearing a loose shirt when you have big boobs makes you look like you weigh 20 pounds more than you really do. I have pictures that make me cringe now. But Clinton and Stacey introduced me to the world of getting clothes to fit your entire body, not just one part.

   They will pry my button-downs with darts down the front out of my cold, dead hands.

2. And it’s especially pretty fucked because, aside from the people who are naturally very thin, getting your collarbones to protrude an inch or two demands some serious starvation.

   Not necessarily. It’s largely a function of bone structure. When I was thinner, but still not thin, I had a prominent collarbone and even a bony chest. It’s just that my fat collects elsewhere.

3. I hate that billowy, shapeless shirts and dresses are in right now. Unless you are tall and have long legs poking out underneath, they make you look short, shapeless and like you’re wearing a tent. They always look cute on the runways, and like shit when you actually put them on (and by “you” I mean “me”).

   Oh, god, Amen. I walk into Club Monaco, and see all their billowy shifts, and I’m all, “Oh! How light and breezy for summer! It looks so comfortable! And the mannequin looks so fabulous!”

   Unfortunately, while I’m in no way pudgy, I’m 5’2″, a C-cup, and what my ex called ‘birthing’ hips. When you pudge on top and at the hip, added pudge at the midsection just turns you into one big blob. Sigh.

4. I was going to comment on something specific, but really it’s all good. And although I usually *hate it* when commenters post things like “good post,” well, good post. 🙂

5. I’m 5′2″, a C-cup, and what my ex called ‘birthing’ hips

   Gosh, can’t imagine why he’s an ex.

6. The clavicle thing is all about the bone structure.

   That’s even more oppressive than the usual pressure to be rail-thin, because with bone structure, either you’re born with it or you aren’t. You can’t starve yourself into having it. Not that I’m saying it’s a good thing to starve yourself into being rail-thin, but you have slightly more control over that than you do over random genetically-determined conformation points.

   I have bony protruberant clavicles. Aside from my cheekbones, jawline, wrists, ankles, and elbows, they’re about the only things on me that are bony — I weigh around 145 lbs at 5’6″ tall and wear a D cup bra. I also lifted weights for about two years, so I’m denser than I look. I am, however, still getting pressure from the current fashion trend of the tiny, nipped-in waist, which ain’t happening for me until they figure out a way of making my torso longer so my ribcage isn’t sitting on my hipbones. All the starving myself in the world isn’t going to change that, were I even so inclined to do such a thing…

7. The woman in that photograph looks ill. I’m not saying she is, since I don’t know her, but the way they’ve staged it is really creepy.

8. “But I’d rather see us not be broken down into parts, whether the part is a dimpled elbow or a protruding collar bone. ”

   This is an important point. I often hear pornstick dudes talking about only certain parts of women – whatever part rings their bell – “ass men”, “leg men” et al. Reducing another human being to just pieces – or more often ONE piece – and judging their worth based on how that piece fits someone else’s preferrences borders on derranged, imo.

   It suggests that the person is irrelevant – all they need do is be the carrier of a specific attribute. Nothing else matters.

   Derranged.

   OTOH, I’ve noticed a lot of dating and/or weight loss website ads that do exactly that – using a female rear end or cleavage as it’s focal point. So perhaps I’m the derranged one for wanting an entire person and not just a rear end.

9. Eugh.

   A little bit of collarbone can be nice. But to focus on it that obsessively? WTF?

   When I lost weight, I liked the way you could see that yes, I have a clavicle.

   Have we gone through all of the obvious “feminine attractiveness” zones that we now need to focus on a bone that only shows when you’re skinny?

   Lame.

   I’m also now annoyed at my pleasure with my own collarbone.

10. This region has been emphasized by the skinny celebrity acolytes of the stylist Rachel Zoe, including Nicole Richie and Keira Knightley. Their ubiquitous deep V-neck tops show off sometimes skeletal frames, and other actresses have taken their cue and sized down as well, to the point that the Internet teems with fashion and celebrity bloggers and message board posters carping about protruding A-list clavicles.

    This is what I don’t understand about the fashion industry. Who are they trying to impress? It certainly isn’t the average guy. As far as I know, Mr. Average is not really into ribs unless they’re beef.

    On some level it strikes me as something women do to themselves. We set this certain standard of beauty in order to categorize ourselves as skinny enough, tall enough, etc.

    It reminds of something a friend of mine one said about the African-American community. He said that the community rather than dealing with the real issues facing them has turned against itself by saying this person is darker and so worth less, and this person is lighter and so worth more. He seemed to believe that it was part of the human condition, that we couldn’t find a way to lift each other up, we always spent our energy tearing each other down.

    While clearly lacking the emotional and social importance of the work he was trying to do, fashion and their view of beauty feels the same to me. It feels like something we use to tear each other down.

11. Check out the pose on the model – her shoulders are rolled forward in a way that makes the clavicle stand out. Almost anyone can get their collarbones to protrude an inch by standing like that. Of course, if you are not a model in a photoshoot which hides your arm position, you will look pretty funny.

    I like this quote:

    “I always want to show off my collarbone,” said Gabriella Morello, a Columbia sophomore who had just finished a class at the Equinox Fitness Club on the Upper East Side that included push-ups, chest presses, flys and other exercises for the upper chest.

    If you do enough pec exercises, they will cover your collarbones. You don’t even have to have huge muscles for this happen.

    I kind of like how my collarbones look, and I am happy to wear necklines that accentuate them. It’s part of liking my body overall. The collarbones are just one more part to like.

12. He said that the community rather than dealing with the real issues facing them has turned against itself by saying this person is darker and so worth less, and this person is lighter and so worth more.

    Just like an Uncle Tom to place the blame for overvaluing lighter skin on black people. It couldn’t possibly be the case that slave owners were likely to treat their own part-black children (ie, the light ones) better than the dark field slaves, or that being a house negro (a light one) made opportunities for education and skill-building more accessible, which, of course, made it easier on the more-likely-to-be-literate/skilled lighter-skinned blacks to move up in a post-slavery world. Just as, I suppose, it couldn’t possibly be the case that women who fit patriarchal ideals actually lead easier lives on average than women who don’t. No, silly women and black people have no real-life incentives to sort themselves out according to mainstream acceptance.

    If I were you, Kirsten, I’d refrain from repeating the ponderings of your Uncle Tom friend (or any of your fellow Aunt Bea’s, for that matter) until you’ve done a little reading about the nature of oppression.

13. I kind of like how my collarbones look, and I am happy to wear necklines that accentuate them. It’s part of liking my body overall. The collarbones are just one more part to like.

    Thank you, Frumious B. That’s what I was trying to say.

14. Gosh, can’t imagine why he’s an ex.

    Srsly.

15. That’s even more oppressive than the usual pressure to be rail-thin, because with bone structure, either you’re born with it or you aren’t. You can’t starve yourself into having it.

    Will you please turn your post into an e-mail and send it to Christina Ricci? I’m getting really worried about her, and no one seems to notice that she’s turned into a giant head on a stick.

    Honey, if you have a heart-shaped face, YOU HAVE A HEART-SHAPED FACE. No amount of weight loss will change the shape of your skull. Ever.

16. I often hear pornstick dudes talking about only certain parts of women – whatever part rings their bell – “ass men”, “leg men” et al. Reducing another human being to just pieces – or more often ONE piece – and judging their worth based on how that piece fits someone else’s preferrences borders on derranged, imo.

    I’m a cock woman myself.

    Nope. You’re right. It just doesn’t work.

17. Despite not ever reading fashion magazines and avoiding pretty much all television, I still really wish I looked like Keira Knightly. Which is stupid, because I have very close to the figure of Scarlett Johansson, and in a sane world I’d be perfectly happy with that.
    I would look like a head on a stick if I ever lost the amount of weight i’d want, yet I still feel bad about my figure. Sick friggin culture. Sick friggin me.

18. When I was anorexic, I liked my collarbones best. I think I’ll try to avoid the return of my own personal clavicle fetish, thank you very much.

19. I think Rachel Zoe (the stylist mentioned in the article) really is pure evil, like Ann Coulter evil…
    She really is the one stylist who styles almost all the women who look like they might/actually do have eating disorders…

20. If I were you, Kirsten, I’d refrain from repeating the ponderings of your Uncle Tom friend (or any of your fellow Aunt Bea’s, for that matter) until you’ve done a little reading about the nature of oppression.

    Well, that was a bit judgmental. As it happens my “Uncle Tom” is devoting his life to educating and providing jobs to those left impoverish by the legacy of slavery. But of course he couldn’t be a valuable person with some insight about how he’s been treated in the black community, because he disagrees with you.

    But as for women:

    it couldn’t possibly be the case that women who fit patriarchal ideals actually lead easier lives on average than women who don’t.

    My point in fact was that there is no patriarchal ideal about collar bones. None whatsoever. No man has ever said to me…Kristen…your collar bones don’t stick out enough…you can’t have this job. Further, I have never, ever noticed that a woman who subscribes to the often extreme dictates of fashion has an easier life. Anorexia is not an easier life. Bras are not an easier life. Perhaps if fashion were about making women look like porn stars, you might have a point. But fashion is not about making women look attractive to men, it’s about making women meet some other silly standard with no purpose.

21. Had to run to the mirror to check that I remembered correctly, but yeah, protruding clavicles seems to be a lot about posture, at least for my bone structure at my current weight. If I have anything approaching good posture, you can tell that they’re there, but they aren’t really prominent or anything. But, when I do my normal slouchy shoulder stance, I start looking a little bit Cardassian.

22. Well, skinny bony-clavicled women are female also, and I kind of hate this “real woman” thing which ties femininity to having hips or full breasts or a round ass or a soft stomach.

    From someone built like Olive Oyl: Thank you.

23. How about “Real Women Have Curves Too“? I always thought that’s what the coiner(s) of that phrase really meant to say, but it got lost in translation somehow.

24. Just as, I suppose, it couldn’t possibly be the case that women who fit patriarchal ideals actually lead easier lives on average than women who don’t.

    Not to derail, but is this true? Does conforming to patriarchial ideals give you some sort of get-out-of-patriarchal-oppression-free card?

    I kind of don’t think so.

25. This woman looks like a corpse in her shroud. Rouged by the undertaker. If I met her on a dark night I would make the sign of the cross.

26. it couldn’t possibly be the case that women who fit patriarchal ideals actually lead easier lives on average than women who don’t.

    Uh, they don’t. What planet are you living on?

    In my experience, one leads an easier life once one rejects the patriarchal ideals and starts living on one’s own terms. Conforming to the ideals takes a HUGE amount of time, money and effort, and I’d rather spend that time knitting and reading, thank you.

27. First, I think that the fashion peoples (I can’t bring myself to say “fashionistas” today) need to create dumb trends like this to stick between ads in the magazines. Next season it will be Ooh la la Armpit or something.

    Second, I am on the countdown to widespread clavicle plastic surgery. (Lipo?)

    Also, like zuzu, my clavicles never really disappear. It’s gotta be genetic. I like to work it with open-necked shirts and such. I love that part of the body. Not as much when there are the little bird-bones on women that look like they might snap. That makes me cringe.

28. I hate my clavicles. In fact, I hate my ribs, and my knees, and especially my spine. I hate being bony. I hate feeling bony.

    I used to be rounder, my hips used to be ample, not pointy. I’ve never been overweight, but I was a healthy, normal range from the time I hit puberty to around the time I turned 20. Then I stpped eating junk food regulalry, lost about 15 pounds, and have never been able to put a single one back on. No, not even with the pill.

    I eat more than enough; in fact, I eat more than my 6 foot 1 boyfriend does. I exercise, I have plenty of muscle. I’m just bony. Very very bony. And I hate it.

    But what I hate most is times like these, when it is again emphasized that being bony is attractive, mainly because all my friends, well-meaning though they might be, think that’s it’s more than appropriate to comment on how thin I look as if it’s a fucking compliment. It’s not, to me, and it never will be. It frustrates me, because they should know me better and, actually, do know me better than that. It’s just culturally ingrained, my boyfriend does it too, thinking it’ll comfort me to hear he thinks I’m attractive.

    It doesn’t, because I feel like he’s not attracted to me but to some unhealthy ideal modeled after stupid fashion magazines and tv.

    Needless to say, I have issues.

29. This woman looks like a corpse in her shroud.

    I was just thinking that the recessed collarbone made her neck look longer and hence more like a Pez dispenser as opposed to the undead.

    And now that I’ve typed that, I’m kind of annoyed with myself, because the focus here should be on the toxicity of beauty culture and not new ways to mock the model in the picture.

30. Not necessarily. It’s largely a function of bone structure. When I was thinner, but still not thin, I had a prominent collarbone and even a bony chest. It’s just that my fat collects elsewhere. – zuzu

    I have a similar bone structure phenomenon, I guess. Because of the way my ribs peak out in certain spots (and the way my belly fat is rather evenly distributed into a subtle “tire” rather than obvious “love handles” or a pot belly), people think I’m much, much thinner than I actually am … I’m actually a tad overweight, but people still say that I’m too thin and should gain weight!

31. And now that I’ve typed that, I’m kind of annoyed with myself, because the focus here should be on the toxicity of beauty culture and not new ways to mock the model in the picture.

    Hey, she didn’t pose herself. I consider it mockery of the photographer who made those choices, not the model. Blaming her for the picture is like saying a sports car looks fat in a car ad.

32. Speaking of fat cars, here’s a pretty little pudgster:
    

    But I wasn’t trying to mock the model. I was responding to Jill’s concern that she felt pressured into trying to look like this. This is not a way that anyone should want to look. Looking like you’re dead isn’t sexy.

33. one of these days I’ll learn how to use these damned things.

34. I’m naturally skinny, and my collarbones stick out to the point where people have told me I have “collarbones to die for” (whoa, imagery), but they still aren’t anywhere close to the woman’s in that picture.

    And I hate those stupid tent dresses too. [/useless comment]

35. Nothing turns me on like protruding collarbones.

    That was hilarious! What ridiculous standards the “fashion” industry impose.

36. It couldn’t possibly be the case that slave owners were likely to treat their own part-black children (ie, the light ones) better than the dark field slaves, or that being a house negro (a light one) made opportunities for education and skill-building more accessible, which, of course, made it easier on the more-likely-to-be-literate/skilled lighter-skinned blacks to move up in a post-slavery world.

    I can’t speak regarding the black community, but skin color discrimination spans many ethnic groups and races. True, it might be that it is all historicaly rooted in some form of oppression — in India, for instance, the original caste hierarchy (which in turn arose out of a colonization dynamic) was closely correlated with color. However, at present, there’s no clear indication that lighter-skinned Indians (or East Asians, or blacks) have it better as far as treatment from those outside the community, who tend to be indifferent to nuances in coloring within the race. It does seem to me to be an internal oppression just for the sake of it, and what #10 said does make sense.

37. I have really pale skin and I’m built in a dramatic hourglass shape, which means I don’t have a lot of visible collarbone. I mean, I can make it visible if I want, and it’s always subtly there (well, it has been since I went from slightly overweight to normal-weight) but it’s not really a feature of my body.

    Then again, I live in a culture where it’s apparently acceptable to plaster newspapers with headlines like “THE HORRORS OF SAGGY KNEES” (actual Daily Mail headline) so all I can do is laugh at this stupid fixation and figure it’ll be over by next month, when the real fashionable body part will be the hamstring.

    As for the tent dresses, I find cheap ones with prints I love and take them in with my handy-dandy sewing machine. Voila! Pretty dress that fits. And the bonus is that I can usually make a handbag with all the extra material.

38. Because of the way my ribs peak out in certain spots (and the way my belly fat is rather evenly distributed into a subtle “tire” rather than obvious “love handles” or a pot belly), people think I’m much, much thinner than I actually am

    Ahhh so this happens to someone else! I am 5’7 and currently like 125 (a little under for my usual–oh, college–my doctor wants me to gain weight, which is an interesting experience in that I know I need to gain at least two or three more pounds but I can’t help freaking out when the numbers on the scale go up, thanks patriarchy!!! not) and when I went to give blood the doctor was like “um are you sure you’re heavy enough?” The cutoff weight is 110. 110! In what universe could someone who is 5’7 and not built like Kiera Knightley possibly weigh 110? But people are always shocked when I tell them how much I weigh.

    But, I too have portruding collarbones, portruding hipbones, and even a portruding ribcage (unless I’ve just eaten a bigass meal). Once a friend of mine–who is built like Keira Knightley except taller, she’s like 5’10 and 115–and I were lying on he beach and her ribs stuck out less than mine did. I really am just big-boned.

39. Re. the discussion over whether women who conform to patriarchy have it easier than women who don’t:

    It’s easier if you conform in the sense that people treat you better and don’t go around calling you a hairy dyke. And if somebody rapes you, people are marginally less likely to place all the blame on you.

    It’s harder if you conform in that you have to put all that effort into conforming, but given that we’re all expected to conform, active nonconformity also requires effort. Trying to find a pair of jeans that fits me but isn’t ultra-low rise comes to mind.

    It’s also easier conforming the same way it’s easier to be straight: if you’re gay, you have to deal with people constantly assuming you’re straight and every time someone asks whether you have a boyfriend or the conversation turns to exes or first kisses or whatever, you have to make the decision whether to tell people you’re gay and risk ostracism or even violence, or to keep quiet and feel like you’re living a lie. No amount of effort required to conform to the straight/feminine stereotype measures up to that.

    The bottom line for me is: if not conforming is easier then 1) why do I have such a shitty time with it and 2) why don’t more women do it? I get that there’s a certain degree of conditioning which makes nonconformity to patriarchy inconceivable to a lot of people but without the privilege that comes with conforming, I think a lot more people would opt out.

    On another topic, one thing that struck me about the article was the idea that the clavicle isn’t sexy/taboo like breasts or butts. Embracing the protruding clavicle ideal is a great way to show your conformity to patriarchy as a Good Girl without associating yourself with the Slut Class (see: Twisty).

    The article is also a neat illustration of how fat-phobia is largely a veneer for classism (as well as sexism): wealthy women are much more likely to be able both to be skeletally thin and to buy clavicle-baring, high-fashion clothes. And these clothes, unlike the more familiar chest-baring fashions, are specifically intended to hide the lower-class signifiers of “sexy” – an hourglass figure, large breasts, small waist – which more women are able to have.

40. Just as, I suppose, it couldn’t possibly be the case that women who fit patriarchal ideals actually lead easier lives on average than women who don’t.

    Not to derail, but is this true? Does conforming to patriarchial ideals give you some sort of get-out-of-patriarchal-oppression-free card?

    Conforming doesn’t get you out of the patriarchy, but it does make negotiating some parts of it easier. Studies have shown over and over again that attractive people, men and women, have more friends, more dates and higher salaries than unattractive people. In a looksist society, it can literally pay to meet the ideal. Of course, you aren’t guaranteed that your friends, dates, or coworkers will treat you like a person or see you as more than your hair color or clavicles. Having been deemed unattractive for most of my life and lately been deemed attractive, I can tell you that life on this side is much better. I do hear that smokin’ hottitude brings its own set of travails. I wouldn’t know.

41. No amount of effort required to conform to the straight/feminine stereotype measures up to that.

    Well, statistically I’m much more likely to be murdered by my intimate partner than you are, so it’s not really great on the straight side of the fence either. Murdered by strangers vs. murdered by husband/boyfriend isn’t much of a choice.

    But I think it’s also something that I was discussing in a totally different thread in regards to race: the more you conform to the “ideal,” the easier it is to be a nonconformist, oddly enough. The less you conform to the “ideal,” the less you’re allowed to stray from it.

    I think the conversation was why minority communities tend to have a high level of macho, and the point was that because Black/Latino/Asian/etc. obviously don’t fit the proper ideal of a man (aka white man), they have to work harder to “prove” that they really are men in the eyes of the larger (white) society, so they feel they have to hew even harder to the violent, anti-intellectual male ideal that we hold in American society.

42. this idea of the clavicles as the new hot body spot reeks of pro-ana culture. the practice of measuring weight loss by the protrusion of one’s bones is a pretty common eating disordered behavior, pro-ed or not, but the message that jutting bones are hot with pictures to illustrate is very pro-ana.

    i’ve always thought that pro-ana websites take the mainstream beauty ideals we all see and just say out loud the underlying messages that are not socially acceptable to talk about.

    so it’s really creepy to me when mainstream publications are spouting out things that sound completely diseased, without even trying to cover it up with some health-fitness-angle.

    and all that stuff about being authentically thin?

    the whole thing just screamed eating disoder.
    if that’s normal, that’s really fucking creepy.

    on a side note,

    Well, skinny bony-clavicled women are female also, and I kind of hate this “real woman” thing which ties femininity to having hips or full breasts or a round ass or a soft stomach.

    another thank you from someone is naturally very thin, even when she’s healthy.

43. Based on an informal survey of my friends, I think that the clothing industry exists to make women think that there is something wrong with their bodies. I have yet to meet a single woman whether curvy or hipless who can find pants that actually fit her body. Mine always are tight in the thighs and hips and try to gap at the waist. One of my friends who is a size two with large breasts and small hips can’t find any pants that don’t hang off her frame. Dresses are better for me because I have a somewhat hourglass figure, but my friend has to have every dress she buys altered to fit her because her hips are “too small” compared to her chest. I love clothes, but shopping often makes me depressed about my body.

    The clavicle obession is disturbing. One clear sign that our society has broken standards of beauty is that even women who get declared beautiful and thin tend to be insecure about their bodies. I read an interview with Keira Knightly in a magizine while I was working out in which she said that she’s self-conscious about not having large breasts, and that for the Pirates of the Caribean movies she spent two hours in makeup each day having cleavage airbrushed on her chest. Talk about impossible standards of beauty!

44. However, at present, there’s no clear indication that lighter-skinned Indians (or East Asians, or blacks) have it better for your Indian example, I once took a seminar taught by some geras far as treatment from those outside the community

    I don’t know where you get that from. As a lighter-skinned black person, I personally have experienced privilege as a result of my complexion outside of the black community. White people tell me all the time about how they don’t really consider me black since I’m not all that dark and I don’t act the way they expect black people to behave. Truth be told, I’m not all that light either, but it seems to make a big difference as far as how approachable I’m deemed by white people (and black people alike). Don’t even try to tell me that looking more approachable to white people doesn’t give me privilege over darker-skinned black people when it comes to jobs, housing, loans, car shopping, and everything else.

    The same is true of any patriarchy-approved look, as Frumious B describes in her own experience.

    It is notable that adhering to patriarchal ideals means adhering to a straight white male ideal. Whiteness is just as important a part of non-white women’s drag as femininity is, and believe me, lighter skin helps.

    Anecdotally, I once took a seminar taught by some geriatric asshole. He told the one Indian student in the class that she should stop wearing saris, marry herself a nice white boy, and have kids who’d probably be able to pass pretty easily. After all, he said, she was certainly light enough to leave “all that” behind in a single generation. White people can see differences in complexion, and it does affect their treatment of people of color.

45. Studies have shown over and over again that attractive people, men and women, have more friends, more dates and higher salaries than unattractive people.

    Does attractive equal conformity per se? As an overweight woman, I’m not “attractive” (in the patriarchal ideal way) but am constantly told that I’m wearing makeup and dresses and shoes or whatever in order to win favor from the patriarchy.

    Well, someone owes me a lot of favors because my wardrobe really hasn’t “won” me anything (except my own pleasure in wearing it). It won’t make it easier for me to get an abortion if I need it or get me paid maternity leave if I wear a fashionable dress. If I were a lesbian it wouldn’t make it any more legal for me to marry another woman if I had lipstick on.

    And if someone is really “beautiful” (again, in the patriarchal ideal way) no amount of head-shaving or non-leg wearing or non-makeup wearing or unfashionable clothes wearing is going to keep “the patriarchy” from noticing their perfect cheekbones (or whatever).

46. Umm…I meant non-leg shaving. Non-leg wearing would be something totally different.

47. Dammit! Now my favorite summer garb (tank tops) is functionally the same as some high-fashion, follow-the-new-rules crap clothing! Argh!

    I never thought about my collarbones until a guy I was dating said he liked them. Mine, that is. Which was after I picked up an affection for sleeveless shirts, but did make me slightly more vain about wearing them. Though, I was already vain about tank tops, because they show off my shoulders.

    Well, skinny bony-clavicled women are female also, and I kind of hate this “real woman” thing which ties femininity to having hips or full breasts or a round ass or a soft stomach.

    I’ve had to struggle a bit to get over this, being one of those naturally very thin and bony, boyish-figured types. But there’s no way my hips are going to get significantly wider, unless I gain a LOT of weight (I cannot donate blood, and I’m 5’5″), and I’m not about to get breast implants, either. The shoulders kinda make up for that 😉

48. Well, that was a bit judgmental. As it happens my “Uncle Tom” is devoting his life to educating and providing jobs to those left impoverish by the legacy of slavery. But of course he couldn’t be a valuable person with some insight about how he’s been treated in the black community, because he disagrees with you.

    It’s not about him disagreeing with me. It’s about the fact that the larger society values lighter-skinned black people more than darker-skinned ones – not JUST black people. The whole society does it, and it is very Uncle Tom-ish to solely accuse black people of bigotry under those circumstances, as if they should some how magically be immune to the reality around them. Black people are bigots (against their own kind, even!) because they’re steeped in a bigoted, white-supremacist culture. Black people are racists, agains themselves, for the same reasons that women are misogynists.

49. Can we stop calling black people Uncle Tom?

    That’s a pretty heavy slur, in my (light-skinned black) opinion.

50. I don’t see the protruding clavicle thing catching on anytime soon. I have them (even when I’m slumping) along with a chest slightly more padded than Nicole Ritchie’s and trust me, the menz are NEVER shy about letting me know how unattractive it is.

51. Looking at that picture, I do have a neck and collarbones like the model, but I’m not model-thin (5″4 and 112 lbs) I just have a weird distribution of weight.

52. But is it really about the menz? I don’t know. I think fashion has less to do with impressing men than a lot of people give it credit for — I think it’s much more tied to consumerism and class, and being thin is just one way to demonstrate that you’re in a class so privileged that you can refuse food, and can hire a trainer or suck the fat out surgically.

    I don’t think that most men notice collarbones, but some do. Mine are definitely visible from my clavicle to my shoulder, but they don’t protrude inches like that model’s do. And my last boyfriend definitely made a comment about how he liked them. At the time it seemed very sweet, and he tends to date rounder women, so I don’t think he meant it as an indication that he wanted to see me emaciated — but after reading this article and remembering that comment, I’m definitely looking in the mirror and examining. Kind of fucked.

53. This is an important point. I often hear pornstick dudes talking about only certain parts of women – whatever part rings their bell – “ass men”, “leg men” et al. Reducing another human being to just pieces – or more often ONE piece – and judging their worth based on how that piece fits someone else’s preferrences borders on derranged, imo.

    It suggests that the person is irrelevant – all they need do is be the carrier of a specific attribute. Nothing else matters.

    While I’m sure that there are some people for whom “nothing else matters”, I don’t think that’s the case for most. As an “ass man” myself (and a man who is an ass in the eyes of some here), I can say that it is only one attribute among many that I find attractive in a woman.

    A few days ago, I went outside for a smoke break with four female co-workers. The conversation somehow turned to what we all find attractive. There are “ass women” and “leg women” too.

    But fashion is not about making women look attractive to men

    No kidding.

    I eat more than enough; in fact, I eat more than my 6 foot 1 boyfriend does. I exercise, I have plenty of muscle. I’m just bony. Very very bony. And I hate it.

    I’ve known a few very thin women, and they weren’t happy about it either.

    I can understand how women who are heavier can have body image issues as they feel they are not “thin enough” to meet the modern standard of beauty, but where does the “too thin” issue come from?

54. I’d have to second the idea that this particular silliness has nothing to do with men. I’ve already admitted that I’m one of those guys with unhealthy, distorted-by-popular-culture standards of female beauty, and having said that I can say that at no point did a woman’s collarbones attract my attention. I feel bad for that model, because her pose makes it look like she has an E.T. neck. It’s frightening, and it looks unhealthy, which definitely ain’t hot.

55. I don’t think that most men notice collarbones, but some do. Mine are definitely visible from my clavicle to my shoulder,

    You had me at clavicle, Jill.

56. I’ve been noticing this trend for a while now. It’s not really anything new. Anything that emphasizes thinthinthin is sexy — protruding clavicles, cheekbones, and thighs so small they’re bowlegged is considered “hot” by a whole heckuva lot of people.

57. I don’t think that most men notice collarbones, but some do.

    Oh, yes.

    in fact, my wife is having clavicle enhancement surgery: she’s implanting two 1″ stainless steel rods in her chest so that she can have SUPER-sexy clavicles. Because nothing says “beautiful” like “bony!”

    /sarcasm. Good post.

58. I’d have to second the idea that this particular silliness has nothing to do with men.

    Although I do note that the photo is credited to Tony Cenicola. Could be a woman’s name, but I’m guessing not. Do you think that only women are somehow involved in fashion?

59. EF, you’re right, men dominate the business end of the fashion industry — but I still think that a lot of what’s fashionable is less about pleasing men visually/sexually than it is about class status. But I’m also talking about high fashion here — in the day to day real lives of people, many women are taking steps (like getting huge breast implants) that you don’t see on runways or in high fashion magazines, but that are considered “hot” because men supposedly like it.

60. Also, no offense, but most of the women who are all like “I have a protruding clavicle but I’m not anorexic” seem to be missing the whole point. Especially since I’m willing to bet none of these commenters are overweight. If you’re thin, maybe your clavicle will stick out or maybe it won’t, but if you’re fat, it almost never does, regardless of your “bone structure.” So really, it’s still about fat shaming — just another body part that fat girls get to feel bad about because they don’t have the right “look.”

61. Although I do note that the photo is credited to Tony Cenicola. Could be a woman’s name, but I’m guessing not. Do you think that only women are somehow involved in fashion?

    Well, women and gay guys, right? Just kidding, sorry.

    Anyway, I was just referring to the idea of it not having to do with what men find attractive.

62. My sense, and I’ve heard this from various women as well, is that there are definitely two different unrealistic standards of beauty, one more for male consumption (think more swimsuit or lingerie models), the other more for female consumption, if that’s even the right word. High fashion, from what I understand, is mostly concerned wtih the latter. Hence it’s preference for models with no curves and, apparently, really prominent collarbones. Or, put somewhat differently, the emaciated look tends to be designed to play on different anxieties than appearing attractive to men.

63. Do you think that only women are somehow involved in fashion?

    No, but they are the target audience. I think very few men have any interest in fashion shows or magazines.

64. Also, no offense, but most of the women who are all like “I have a protruding clavicle but I’m not anorexic” seem to be missing the whole point. Especially since I’m willing to bet none of these commenters are overweight. If you’re thin, maybe your clavicle will stick out or maybe it won’t, but if you’re fat, it almost never does, regardless of your “bone structure.” So really, it’s still about fat shaming — just another body part that fat girls get to feel bad about because they don’t have the right “look.”

    Fair enough. I just brought it up because until the ex-bf mentioned it, I had never thought about it. And after this article, now it’s on my mind and I’m thinking about it.

    Although I’m willing to bet that you’re wrong about the bone structure thing, and I’m willing to bet that of all the people who commented about their collarbones, at least a few are considered “fat” by our social standards.

65. Maybe I’m operating under a different definition of “fat.” Thinking you look fat because you have a stomach that sticks out is not fat. I think a lot of women have a hard time accepting that just because they’re not a size 8, they’re not actually “fat” but “normal.” I’m not saying that bone structure doesn’t play a part, but I think it detracts from the larger issue that generally speaking, fat women do not have protruding collarbones. Sure, maybe there are some that do. And sure, maybe there are some fat women who have a gap between their thighs and a perfectly flat stomach. But not too many.

66. Jill–

    I hate the fashion this season as well. Unless you are mad tall or pregnant it makes you look totally shapeless. For as much as I don’t like the way I get treated when my clothes are “too tight” I hate feeling dumby when I want people to take me seriously. I am pretty curvy and I don’t want to hide it.

    Good post lady.

67. The whole society does it, and it is very Uncle Tom-ish to solely accuse black people of bigotry under those circumstances, as if they should some how magically be immune to the reality around them. Black people are bigots (against their own kind, even!) because they’re steeped in a bigoted, white-supremacist culture. Black people are racists, agains themselves, for the same reasons that women are misogynists.

    I believe you’re insulting my friend over semantics. His point, and my point re: women, is that those who have been oppressed should understand how hurtful bigotry is and try not to hurt someone else in that same way.

    I don’t consider kindness and empathy a “racial” issue. It’s illustrated in the black community, like it is illustrated among women who encourage each other not to eat rather than impressing on each other that they are beautiful at any weight and whether they are boney or buxom.

    I realize that we are to some extent we are the product of our culture, but I believe in free will enough to say that regardless of where or under circumstances we are born, we can choose kindness or cruelty. I understand when some choose cruelty, but I will always believe we should choose kindness.

68. But I’m also talking about high fashion here — in the day to day real lives of people, many women are taking steps (like getting huge breast implants) that you don’t see on runways or in high fashion magazines, but that are considered “hot” because men supposedly like it.

    Point well taken.

    So really, it’s still about fat shaming — just another body part that fat girls get to feel bad about because they don’t have the right “look.”

    Which is emphatically underscored by the “I am wearing a tent, but I can *prove* that I am not fat by displaying my razor sharp collarbone!” rhetoric in the article. (Man, I wish that weren’t so close to the original line.)

69. Well, skinny bony-clavicled women are female also, and I kind of hate this “real woman” thing which ties femininity to having hips or full breasts or a round ass or a soft stomach. I hear what she’s saying, and I agree that it would be nice to see a more representative range of female bodies in fashion, advertising and entertainment in general. It’s refreshing to see women who look more like me, and more like American women in general, being imaged as sexy and attractive. It’s refreshing to hear women say that they aren’t going to conform to the beauty standard, and that instead they’re going to make the beauty standard conform to them. But I’d rather see us not be broken down into parts, whether the part is a dimpled elbow or a protruding collar bone.

    Thank you. As a freaking twig, I have been offended by this “real women don’t look like that” stuff for a long time. I recognize that maybe .1% of the population is naturally this skinny, but, like, we don’t not exist. I think this may have been part of the reason my classmates were asking me if I was anorexic in high school. It was ridiculous.

    Of course, the concept of anorexia and the idea that it’s okay–even desirable–for a fat woman to starve herself and only an illness when a skinny woman does it because, like, skinny people have no reason to starve themselves, while fat people pretty much don’t deserve to eat, is the subject for an entire rant, and I just don’t have the energy.

70. but I think it detracts from the larger issue that generally speaking, fat women do not have protruding collarbones. Sure, maybe there are some that do. And sure, maybe there are some fat women who have a gap between their thighs and a perfectly flat stomach. But not too many.

    I’m rather fat, and when I’m on my “thinner” side (which is within spitting distance of plus size) my collarbones do show up more than usual. They don’t exactly protrude, but you can see more of the bone structure.

71. Maybe the clavicle devotees have something in common with the people who wrote my highschool dress code. For women, cleavage was ok so long as the woman was wearing a bra, but tank tops or any other clothes that showed off the shoulders were forbidden as provacative.

    On another note, I actually don’t mind the drapey fashions. I finally found a dress to wear with my swimsuit at the beach. The “tent” clothes that are popular now look like sundresses and swimsuit coverups to me and that’s what I intend to use the dress I just got for. The low-cut tunic-length versions are actually flattering on me, but I could never find a bra that wouldn’t show. The implication I guess is that any woman who wears thin drapey shirts that show her shoulders and clavicles and maybe some cleavage shouldn’t need a bra or that she’s at the beach in a bikini. I like them better than the awful skinny jeans, but they still smack of fetishizing skinny carefree women as the ideal.

72. I was thinking for a little while that even though I am a twig, my collarbones don’t look like that. And then I realized, I can make them look like that if I hunch my shoulders forward the way runway models do.

    You know, how they stand with their shoulders hunched forward and their backs kind of curled up, like they don’t have any confidence in themselves.

    I’ve just tried it for a bit. It hurts.

73. This woman has good collarbones. So do her colleagues, I would guess. Take a look at all the photos and see what you think.

74. i guess i’m successfully brainwashed because I think protuding clavicles are hot. I’ve never had one, even at my thinnest, about 104 pounds and 5’3, and now ten pounds heavier, definitly no clavicle showing at all. i’ve always liked them. and i think the model is very pretty, but again, i think super skinny is attractive (as well as curvy too!) but then, i’m not dating these women so…its more of what i aspire to be i guess…

75. Not necessarily fat shaming–my collarbones always stuck out no matter my weight. I just don’t gain much above the waist unless it goes to my boobs. Or chin. I was on a nasty med that made me gain weight rapidly for no reason, and 90 percent of it went to my ass. So now I’m disproportioned while it sloooowly burns off.

    Never use prednisone. It works but does weird things in the meantime. That’s my PSA.

    Anyway, my point is that clavicles depend little on fat. It’s about bone structure and fat storage and a lot of things. Which makes it more ridiculous than most beauty thangs.

76. I think a lot of women have a hard time accepting that just because they’re not a size 8, they’re not actually “fat” but “normal.”

    A widely-publicised survey here in the UK about a month ago claimed that 97% of women think a UK size 12, or a US 8, is “fat”. 97%.

    As someone who’s a US 8, not overweight and still feels fat, it was a bit of a kick in the stomach.

    Anyway, sorry to derail.

77. Clothing size is a remarkably dumb way of gaging body size. I have pants – just pants – in sizes 2, 3, 4, 5, and 8 that all fit about the same. It’s a big lie.

    Between the tight leg-holes of women’s underwear and the butt-mashing-unto-diaper-rash we get from tight pants, it’s a wonder women can still feel their legs by the age of 50.

    The pants industry couldn’t have done a better job making women look like irritable whiners who spend too much time shopping if they tried.

78. #44: Thanks for your input. I was just speaking from what I’ve seen, as an Indian who has lived in India for a great deal of time, and felt much more pressure to be a shade or two lighter there than in America. Also from hearning from Chinese friends about a similar pressure from their families. But of course, my experiences may not be generalizable.

    I agree that the extreme racists that you describe probably equate lighter color with possessing some white ancestry or something. But I don’t think the less-assholish ones think about it in those terms. I could be wrong, of course.

79. A widely-publicised survey here in the UK about a month ago claimed that 97% of women think a UK size 12, or a US 8, is “fat”. 97%.

    And in comparison, over half the population wear above UK size 16 (US size 12).

80. “it couldn’t possibly be the case that women who fit patriarchal ideals actually lead easier lives on average than women who don’t.”

    No, they don’t. That’s patriarchy’s biggest lie. That if you’re pretty enough, thin enough, submissive and obedient enough, whatever enough – you’ll be safe and loved and happy.

    Except you won’t be, because you’re not male. (and lots of them aren’t either).

    It’s a control mechanism – keep them reaching for the prize that is out of reach.

    “and I’d rather spend that time knitting and reading, thank you. ”

    I second that. As my huge collection of hand made socks can attest too. 🙂

81. In my 34 years on this planet, I have been on pig-dog sports teams, in filthy field camps, in stone-age African machismo cultures, and in the typical teen boy American locker rooms. I have never heard a lot of frightfully objectifying language in my time, but I’ve never heard of any man, straight or gay, ever mention clavicles in any context other than the bone most likely to break in a motorcycle crash.

    What you have here, ladies, is a classic alpha girl bluff. The old trick where she says something completely random, but with enough earnestness and confidence to make the recipient blink first. It doesn’t matter if the alpha girl is at a lunch table or on an editorial board. It’s the same spiteful behavior.

82. “Clothing size is a remarkably dumb way of gaging body size. I have pants – just pants – in sizes 2, 3, 4, 5, and 8 that all fit about the same. It’s a big lie.”

    ahh totally. ive got a size 3 (pants of course) from middle school that still fit perfectly, a size 27 and size 29, and the 29’s are waaayyy harder to fit in than the 27 (thank yeww urban outfitters and your uber skinny obsession) and a size 7 thats my favorite pair. me and the bf have talked about how womens pant sizes are bullshit, and even when they do the “acurate, mens sizing” it still obviously doesnt make sense since how the hell do the 27’s fit better than the 29’s?

83. Never use prednisone. It works but does weird things in the meantime. That’s my PSA. – The Bun

    My grandmother (z”l), myself and a friend of mine were on prednisone at the same time for different reasons (who knows what consequence of aging, chronic angio-edema and lymphoma, respectively). My grandmother (on the lowest dose) had horrendous tinnitus from it. I (on the middle dose) got massive ‘roid rage and gained a bunch of weight (going from too thin due to inability to eat from the angio-edema to too fat). My friend (on the highest dose) all but stopped sleeping.

    So I second this PSA!

84. Kind of a side note- I don’t think those shapeless, billowy clothes look good on ANYONE. It makes skinny women look fat and large women look frumpy. I actually have a name for this new ugly clothing movement which seems to be inescapable: Floppy Betty. It all looks like floppy maternity clothes/moomoos with horrendous patterns on them.

    It’s weird, but I have always liked the way my neck and collarbones looked, but to make this yet another body part to fetishize is very tiresome and annoying. I can’t wait for fashion magazines to start reporting on the beauty of skinny fingers and introduce new finger-reducing techniques. *barf*

85. i read this article yesterday, and i could totally tell someone would write about it here. and i’m glad you did–nice post. the most disturbing thing to me is not the existence of the trend, but the NYT’s complete failure to address the relationship between striving for boniness and eating disorders. it’s just irresponsible journalism to write an article exploring and more or less supporting this trend without at least acknowledging that overidealizing boniness could be a bad thing. poor reporting.

    and yeah, the part about the girl working her pecs to get a bonier clavicle was hilarious. it’s like people who think doing nothing but tons of situps will get them a tiny tummy. actually, it will get you a muscular tummy, unless you also eat right and do enough other exercise to keep fat off.

86. Kristen, I’m a bit confused about this:

    Bras are not an easier life

    For whom? Easier than what? Seriously?

    Because, while you may not feel that wearing a bra improves the quality of your existance any, my existance would be seriously constrained without my … umm … constraints.

    There may be some better way to stop the boobage from jiggling, pulling, and flopping uncomfortably about when I do any even remotely vigorous physical activity, but I haven’t found it. I suppose reduction surgery would take care of the problem, but I think wearing a supportive undergarment is, overall, less stressful than having a surgeon cut perfectly healthy bits of me away.

    Overall, wearing a decent, comfy bra seems like a much better option than giving up dancing or going down stairs because I can’t take the discomfort.

87. Because, while you may not feel that wearing a bra improves the quality of your existance any, my existance would be seriously constrained without my … umm … constraints.

    I see your point. From my own personal experience (I’m a 32H or I depending on the manufacturer), bras are the bane of my existence. I have spent countless hours find ones that fit, don’t make me look fat or too busty, ones that work under sweaters, ones that work under silk, etc. (P.S. there is no such thing as a seamless bra in that size…) Not to mention I have to buy them from the UK because US manufacturers don’t make them in those sizes which means I pay minimum $70 for each and every one. So, I hate bras. Hate them. I wish I could walk around in the comfy tanktops with support (even though I personally have to sew in stronger strapping) than wear another pinching, poking evil bra. Of course if I did that…we all know what would happen.

88. Many years ago, while doing research in India, I was told that I was ugly because I was too thin, and you could tell because it was possible to see my collarbones.

89. … I should add that the “you can see your collarbones” was the explanation I received, not the one I’m giving…

90. But is it really about the menz? I don’t know. I think fashion has less to do with impressing men than a lot of people give it credit for — I think it’s much more tied to consumerism and class

    You are right, but the consumerism and class markers are all defined by and for a patriarchal society where the Male Gaze is the only one that matters. Women arguably dress for other women, but the Male Gaze is the measuring stick.

    Because nothing says “beautiful” like “bony!”

    /sarcasm.

    Fuck you, Sailorman. Did you not read all the thank you’s from skinny girls for Jill’s refraint from skinny hating? We happen to think that our boniness is beautiful.

91. Huh.

    I find it interesting that this discussion includes many posts by women describing how they look. Women giving weight, height, bra size, and dress sizes, and describing how close their own bones look to the model’s, what actresses bodies their own bodies look like.

    It strikes me as odd that in a discussion about objectification, people sitting otherwise invisibly behind computers start to describe how they look. Well, the women, not the men. The men describe their feelings about the body part objectified.

    And there seem to be many more posts from people describing themselves as “thin” or “normal” than not (whether they say so overtly or whether it’s implied through the dress size, etc.).

    It makes me wonder, when women discuss how much we hate objectification, do we also have to prove to each other that it isn’t because we’re not pretty ourselves?

    Not being hostile. I just find it surprising.

92. Kristen, I simply hate bra manufacturers, for

    1) not creating bras that come in a full range of sizes and shapes—not all women can wear the standard range of sizes.

    2) charging monstrous prices for their creations

    3) not understanding that larger-chested women need bras for the same functions as women who fit the average bra sizes

    I would love to find someone who could sew me custom bras. Love love love! I’d be supporting an independant businessperson (probably a woman), avoiding putting money in the pockets of lingerie manufacturers, and I might have a prayer of a bra that fits, supports, looks nice, and doesn’t suck to wear. *

    I personally hate the “supportive” tank tops, because they frankly aren’t, nor do the manufacturers of same understand the idea of a woman with big boobs and a not-so-big frame. I pop out of tank tops that fit my frame and shoulders; tanks that contain my boobs sag inelegantly elsewhere. Plus I get a sweaty band of elastic under my breasts, and no discernable support, and my nipples are visible through the two layers.

    Worst of all possible worlds.

    *Note to the ever-helpful hivemind: Please don’t recommend that I look at Decent Exposures. Their bras are Not for Me. Thanks!

93. It makes me wonder, when women discuss how much we hate objectification, do we also have to prove to each other that it isn’t because we’re not pretty ourselves?

    Oh, bigtime. It’s the same reflex that makes me talk about how i’m married so I can prove i’m not a ‘manhater’ or something. The immediate reflex of asshole patriarchal dudes is to say “you’re just feminist because you’re bitter cause you’re ugly and men don’t want to bang you” so it’s natural to want to refute that. Depressing and pointless, but natural.

94. I find it interesting that this discussion includes many posts by women describing how they look. Women giving weight, height, bra size, and dress sizes, and describing how close their own bones look to the model’s, what actresses bodies their own bodies look like.

    It strikes me as odd that in a discussion about objectification, people sitting otherwise invisibly behind computers start to describe how they look.

    I think you’re misunderstanding the impulse. The impulse is not, “Look at me, I’m an object, too!” The impulse is, “It’s silly to present this model as an ideal, because very, very few people match it, and here’s why.” It’s presenting supporting evidence, not looking for reassurance that we’re all oh-so-pretty.

95. Ok, I’ll be more honest. I don’t just find it surprising that there are so many posts from women talking about how they’re normal-sized/thin versus the handful that say or imply that they’re overweight. I find it disappointing. We all spend way too many hours a day being told that we should worry about how we look compared to other women. Do we have to prove our skinniness to each other here too?

96. And there seem to be many more posts from people describing themselves as “thin” or “normal” than not (whether they say so overtly or whether it’s implied through the dress size, etc.).

    It makes me wonder, when women discuss how much we hate objectification, do we also have to prove to each other that it isn’t because we’re not pretty ourselves?

    So what’s your premise here? We’re all fat ugly bitches who are clearly jealous of the model, which is the only reason we’re analyzing this issue? Not being hostile, that just seems to be what you’re implying.

    Otherwise, it is interesting how many women here seemed to be compelled to examine their own bodies in comparison to the model’s in order to judge themselves as to what is normal or not. It just reminds me how much crap we’ve all internalized.

97. “It’s silly to present this model as an ideal, because very, very few people match it, and here’s why.”

    But the general theme in this discussion is that people do match the ideal. People are stating or implying that they are not overweight– very few are stating or implying that they are actually large people. There seems to be more concern that thin women are discriminated against, when thin is the ideal as presented by the model.

98. Very late getting into this thread, but re: foreign cultures (India, China) prizing lighter skin over darker…

    Could this have anything to do with the fact that those who perform manual labor–often outdoors as farmers, etc.–in these countries are looked down upon as “low class” by the wealthier segments of society? In pre-industrial, agriculture societies, darker skin and a lean or skinny figure means you are poor and have to work for a living, whereas light skin and a little extra body fat is taken as a sign of affluence–you don’t work in the sun and have more than enough food. Many places in the developing world probably still have this conception, even if, as in China, they’re modernizing and industrializing at a rapid pace.

    Of course, the effects of white colonialism and any racism internal to these cultures loom large as well. But I think a fair amount of the emphasis on lighter skins found in many cultures may have something to do with old agrarian values that we in the US have forgotten about–we’ve been industrialized and mechanized for long enough to forget.

99. So what’s your premise here? We’re all fat ugly bitches who are clearly jealous of the model, which is the only reason we’re analyzing this issue? Not being hostile, that just seems to be what you’re implying.

    Whoa, where in the world did I imply that? Are you kidding?

    My premise isn’t implied, it’s openly stated: I worry that when women talk about disliking objectification, they feel like they have to make it clear it isn’t because there’s something wrong with them. It has nothing to do with the way people look, but the way they feel about themselves and each other, and I think it’s frustrating that we have to prove ourselves to each other here.

    Frustrating too that we’d suspect one of us of thinking the others were “all fat ugly bitches.”

100. Ok, I’ll be more honest. I don’t just find it surprising that there are so many posts from women talking about how they’re normal-sized/thin versus the handful that say or imply that they’re overweight. I find it disappointing. We all spend way too many hours a day being told that we should worry about how we look compared to other women. Do we have to prove our skinniness to each other here too?

     Given that the subject under discussion is the eroticizing of protruding clavicles, skinniness is on topic. Because in the majority of cases, you just don’t get that kind of protrusion without being thin.

     It’s also on topic because Jill specifically addressed two related issues in the post, which are a) the article’s celebration of extreme thinness and b) her observation that bashing thin women just because they fit this week’s ideal is not cool. And a number of women spoke up and said thanks.

     I guess I’m just not sure what your problem is with discussing boniness when the topic of the post is boniness.

101. I’m mentioning my body shape simply because it is, oh, relevant to the topic at hand. Mostly Normal, I’m not complaining of discrimination, I wouldn’t dream of doing that, I’m just commenting on how the fetishization of thinness affects me, a thin woman.

     Trumpeting skeletal clavicles as sexy is going to affect me, dammit, because I have a hard time convincing strangers that no, I’m not starving myself to be thin, and no, I’m not even thin on purpose. Every time I eat a salad instead of, say, meat and potatoes, some people think I’m doing it because I want to lose weight. Everytime I eat cake, some people think I’m going to barf it up again in the bathroom.

     I’m not saying that being thin is worse than being fat, I’m not comparing my issues with my weight with other women’s issues with their weight. I’m just relating my experience to the article.

     I hate my body because of its thinness. I don’t think it’s “pretty”. It would be lovely if I could just accept me as I am, and as a poster suggests, think my boniness is beutiful, but it’s damn hard to do when every time you go to the doctor, they give you a whole spiel about eating disorders and how I must be lying to them, because there’s no way I’m not bulemic, nu-huh, no how, or how every time there’s a thread like this on any feminist board the comments on how “unhealthy” the model looks abound.

     I’m made to feel that I look unhealthy because of my weight. Fashions like these compound the problem, because more people believe that mine is a voluntary condition, that I must be trying to fit into these ridiculous standards of beauty, and that I’d be much better off if I just ate a sandwich.

102. I would love to find someone who could sew me custom bras. Love love love! I’d be supporting an independant businessperson (probably a woman), avoiding putting money in the pockets of lingerie manufacturers, and I might have a prayer of a bra that fits, supports, looks nice, and doesn’t suck to wear. *

     Me too!!! There this thing called Ah! Bras! which one of my friend’s swears by, but they are so..incredibly..ugly. I keep saying I’m going to do it…but I never do…. Call me Ms. Vain.

     But the general theme in this discussion is that people do match the ideal. People are stating or implying that they are not overweight– very few are stating or implying that they are actually large people. There seems to be more concern that thin women are discriminated against, when thin is the ideal as presented by the model.

     I think the issue the women who happen to be thin were pointing out is that those of us who happen not to be thin have a tendency to “Blame” thin women for making others feel ugly. Which isn’t kind or fair. It isn’t their fault they happen to be thin any more than it’s my fault I have big hips.

103. People are stating or implying that they are not overweight– very few are stating or implying that they are actually large people.

     We’ve had many many (many) discussions where women talk about being overweight. We’re taking a break from that and letting the naturally thin people talk, because it ain’t all a bowl of cherries on their side, either.

     Thinness does not equal happiness and contentment, no matter what the media tells you. Thin women are made to feel like freaks the same way that fat women are. Normal-sized women at healthy weights are made to feel like freaks, too.

     See a pattern here?

104. So what’s your premise here? We’re all fat ugly bitches who are clearly jealous of the model, which is the only reason we’re analyzing this issue? – Mostly Normal

     Perhaps I misunderstood, but I thought the premise was quite the opposite — the criticisms being made of what’s going on are not being made because we’re all a bunch of sore losers, but rather because we sincerely believe there is a problem — even if, due to the current fads, some of us here (not me personally: hairy dudes have been “in”; nerds have been “in”, but I don’t recall “hairy nerds who look thin even if we’re fat” ever being “in”, have we?) benefit from the current state of affairs.

     It may be depressing that we have to address the “sore loser” issue and prove we aren’t, but I actually (perhaps because I’m not technically part of this “we” of which I speak) don’t think it’s entirely unfair that we have to do so.

105. Whoa, where in the world did I imply that? Are you kidding?

     Well, your post specifically mentions how weird you think it is that when self-evaluating themselves, most women here described themselves as “thin.” You then mentioned how defensive they seemed to be when describing themselves as attractive. The implication seemed to be that you didn’t believe how they described themselves.

106. Blitz – I think you’re overreacting here, I don’t think Mostly Normal implied that, just that they were giving the caveat of “it’s ok for me to talk about how much these standards suck, because i’m not just being bitter.”

     It may not be true for all of us, but I don’t think she’s completely off-base here. Then again, I could just be a bad feminist. 😉

107. but it’s damn hard to do when every time you go to the doctor, they give you a whole spiel about eating disorders and how I must be lying to them, because there’s no way I’m not bulemic, nu-huh, no how,

     My best friend was actually hospitalized in high school because they were certain she had an eating disorder because she was so thin. Of course she didn’t have an eating disorder and three days later they released her. It wasn’t until five years later they discovered that the problem was she a food allergy that caused her to lose weight when she ate certain (generally junk food or chocolate!!) foods. She absolutely hated and still hates her body even though she’s been able to put on a few pounds. But you know what…she’s beautiful and I’m sure you are too, not because she’s thin, but because she is a kind person and that kindness shines through her eyes and face and smile. That’s what makes beauty.

108. For what it’s worth, I agree with you, Mostly Normal. It does seem like a lot of people here are trying to “prove” that they are bony and bony people are oppressed, too. I don’t know, to me, it seems similar to arguments like “men are oppressed too” or “white people are oppressed too.”

109. she’s beautiful and I’m sure you are too, not because she’s thin, but because she is a kind person and that kindness shines through her eyes and face and smile. That’s what makes beauty.

     That, and huge tits. …right?

110. Jill, would you cut it out? You’re a beautiful young woman with gorgeous eyes, a bewitching smile, thick, glossy dark hair, and a great complexion. Plus you’re brilliant, successful, and famous, with adoring fans who hang on your every word and a sparkling career in your future, whatever you want it to be. Would you stop obsessing and enjoy your summer?

111. I don’t think Mostly Normal implied that, just that they were giving the caveat of “it’s ok for me to talk about how much these standards suck, because i’m not just being bitter.”

     I’m bitter. Real fucking bitter. This shit pisses me off. I don’t really love bones being fetishized.

     I’m also not bony, nor skinny.

     For what it’s worth, I agree with you, Mostly Normal. It does seem like a lot of people here are trying to “prove” that they are bony and bony people are oppressed, too. I don’t know, to me, it seems similar to arguments like “men are oppressed too” or “white people are oppressed too.”

     I don’t think anyone is trying to have a competition of oppressions here. Yes, fat people are targeted far worse than thin people in society at large. There’s a whole lot more fat-hatred than skinny-hatred. I don’t think anyone on the thread is trying to say that being skinny is a horrible oppression.

     But I do think people are pointing out that thinness is not the only beauty standard, and that thin women deal with their share of beauty-bullshit, too.

     I’m not bony or skinny by any stretch. And while I’ve certainly been called fat a few times, I’m not overweight by medical definitions. So I don’t feel oppressed from being fat or thin — I feel oppressed from walking around every day in a female body. I feel oppressed from being broken down into pieces of what’s “hot” this week — last year it was my ass, now it’s my collarbone, etc.

     I brought up the “real woman”/skinny girl thing simply to illustrate that breaking us down into larger body parts isn’t helpful, either. Does it make me feel slightly better when the “hot” body part is a big ass? Yeah, kind of, because I’ve got one of those. But I still think it’s unhealthy, and I’d still rather it didn’t happen. I think most people on this thread are saying the same thing — not that they’re oppressed for being thin, but that thinness does not equal a get-out-of-patriarchy-free card, and that femaleness in general is oppressive — even if you fit the trendy body this week.

112. femaleness in general is oppressive — even if you fit the trendy body this week.

     Amen sister!

113. Thanks Blix. And point taken. I wasn’t trying to do the “Waaah I’m so ugly” thing, just saying that articles like this can have the effect of making some of us more self-critical over stupid things like collarbones. Which, I think we can all agree, is pretty fucking stupid. So I’m going to stop, and go buy some beer for my BBQ tonight. I hear drinking beer emphasizes the clavicle 😉

114. That, and huge tits. …right?

     If only. I have rather large ones, and other than my husband I don’t think anyone has ever said I’m beautiful.

115. I don’t think Mostly Normal’s point is coming from nowhere. I don’t quite think this goes along with what MN was saying, but I do find it interesting that so many of us have full catalogues of our bodies and can give such incredibly detailed descriptions of our bodies (and then how we’ve dealt with the problems that go with each body part). I thought I was the only person who did that. 😉

     I know in theory that women tend to pore (heh) over their appearances and bodies, but to see it happen in real-time here, so to say, is very interesting.

     Maybe it’s not protesting too much, maybe it’s just that discussing each pro and con of certain body parts–clavicles, breasts, whatever–is just a pleasurable way to vent about all the obsession we have with the various bits and pieces that make up our bodies. Minute scrutiny is pressed on women, and it’s nice to be able to share all the results of so many years of close scrutiny in a safe space.

     Still kinda strange, though. Can’t put my finger on why, but Mostly Normal’s view seems closest. Like we’re airing our frustrations/grievances with our bodies as they relate to attractiveness/acceptability in this society, but by doing so giving in to the whole concept. Catch-22? (Am I making sense at all?)

     (I need to reread some of my feminist texts. This has been discussed ad infinitum before in so many places, but running into it on an internet forum is so intriguing.)

116. My tits hate these tent dresses. I cannot find one where the ribcage part goes over my nipples. This means the dress hanging from the top half of my breasts (which are a good 8″ than my rib cage).
     And it’s unfortunate that I find defined collarbones attractive since I will never have them unless I slouch hardcore.
     The NYT really shouldn’t publish and justify thinspiration. Then again, they probably think they have uncovered some new and fascinating beauty trend.

117. I hear drinking beer emphasizes the clavicle

     If that was true, i’d be opening mail with my neck.

118. Ugh, ignore my last post!

     I brought up the “real woman”/skinny girl thing simply to illustrate that breaking us down into larger body parts isn’t helpful, either. Does it make me feel slightly better when the “hot” body part is a big ass? Yeah, kind of, because I’ve got one of those. But I still think it’s unhealthy, and I’d still rather it didn’t happen. I think most people on this thread are saying the same thing — not that their oppressed for being thin, but that thinness does not equal a get-out-of-patriarchy-free card, and that femaleness in general is oppressive — even if you fit the trendy body this week.

     This pretty much says it all.

119. And there seem to be many more posts from people describing themselves as “thin” or “normal” than not (whether they say so overtly or whether it’s implied through the dress size, etc.).

     Accurate (though unsurprising) because by definition, the majority of women are normal. So there are many, many more women who will self-characterize as thin or normal than those who would not. That is, unless we are all going around in a circle describing ourselves the way many of us struggle so incredibly hard to stop imagining ourselves to be: Fat, fatty-fat, chub-o, fat cow, etc. But we aren’t doing that. So why is that a strange phenomenon to encounter here, of all places?

     It makes me wonder, when women discuss how much we hate objectification, do we also have to prove to each other that it isn’t because we’re not pretty ourselves?

     I don’t think these commenters are saying that thin=pretty. They’re only saying they’re normal or thin and you’re making that jump.

     Thing is, even when you’re “thin” and “bony,” even when you match the “ideal,” you still get to feel bad about your body, same as anyone else. We know no one ever actually gets the prize promised by the patriarchy. Very thin women get the shaft as much as anyone else, and when they have body image issues, not many have empathy for them.

     Fashion marketing tells us that larger women are TOO fat, and swimsuit / lingerie-style marketing tells us that skinny women are all TOO thin. Well, those camps don’t have seperate mailing lists based on pants size; we ALL get the messages from both camps, so no woman gets to be exempt from feeling less-than, without putting in some serious introspective work.

     Here, we have some very thin women who, because of others’ perception of them as the ideal, might feel like they have few chances to be heard about the pain of self-hate. While over here, we have some other women who describle themselves as “normal.” Well, I suspect that these women have all felt fat at one time, and perhaps feel fat right now. But, they’re here, so they know something is wrong with that. Intellectually, many of them know they’re normal, yet still they struggle with the self-hate same as every other woman of any size.

     I’m a size 12-14. That’s a pretty average size. That makes me normal. And yet, I really struggle to feel okay about my body. Hell, nearly all women of this size feel like they’re “too fat.” It’s not about the very fattest and the very thinnest women wanting to be average. It’s about not being able to clearly see ourselves as we actually are.

     Aside: I LOVE billowy tops like these because they hide my waistline, where I often leave my pants unbuttoned (even partially unzipped sometimes!). Pants that fit my hips and thighs tend constrict my tummy and give me such pains! I just bought two mumu-style summer dresses to wear over pants just because with them, I can get away all sneaky-like without correctly operating my pants according to the instrucions.

120. If that was true, i’d be opening mail with my neck.

     Wouldn’t that be handy, though? And if your clavicle is bony enough, you’re probably able to open beer bottles in that center indentation thing, right?

     More proof that the human body was built by an Intelligent Designer.

121. That’s true! Yet another reason to reach the patriarchal ideal: I can open my man’s beer bottles for him at the bar. Won’t the other men be jealous! It’s the amazing Woman-4000! It slices, it dices, it vacumns and dusts! Includes the new and improved MoistHole for your masturbating pleasure!

     I’m in a weird mood today. 🙂

122. It’s not about the very fattest and the very thinnest women wanting to be average. It’s about not being able to clearly see ourselves as we actually are.–Cate

     I second that Cate.

     I certainly have that problem.
     I think that it is odd that I see other women as beautiful but cannot apply the same standards to myself. Intellectually I know that I’m not fat (e.g: 28” waist, size 4, large B cup, places me squarely in the average range for a woman my age), but that doesn’t matter in terms of my own body perception. I vacillate between thinking that I’m pretty and that I’m an ugly little thing who needs to work on her body more. I have no trouble seeing other women of different sizes as beautiful and sexy but on an emotional level it doesn’t work for my own body. I have no idea why this happens either.

123. Wouldn’t that be handy, though? And if your clavicle is bony enough, you’re probably be able to open beer bottles in that center indentation thing, right?

     More proof that the human body was built by an Intelligent Designer.

     Nice!

124. I get what you’re saying, Jill, and I do agree. It’s just that, even though I know ALL women get shit on by unrealistic beauty standard perpetuated by our culture, I don’t know if I agree that all women get shit on equally. I think women who are fat have a much harder time than women who are not. Although thin women might feel bad about “real women have curves” and things, the fact is, those messages are a drop in the bucket in comparison to the thin, thin, thin messages in our culture. I’m not saying thin women still can’t complain about the beauty industry, even if they match up to the trendy standards of the day. But such complaining can’t be done in a vacuum without seriously acknowledging relative privilege and so forth. And the going on and on, detailing your measurements to the inch, doesn’t really make a lot of sense to me — can’t we just say something like, “my clavicle shows and I’m thin” or “my clavicle shows and I’m fat” or whatever? Or is it that women really don’t know whether or not they’re fat and we feel the need to get really detailed in order to prove how thin, fat, or “normal” we are? Do you see what I mean?

125. Yeah, I hear ya Edith, and you’re right — fat women do get it much, much worse. I’m definitely not disputing that. And I’m very agreed about the need to acknowledge privilege when it come to body type.

     Maybe part of the issue is that people really don’t know how to define things like “fat” and “thin” — it is kind of a moving target, isn’t it? I mean, medically, I’m neither over nor underweight. I don’t think of myself as either fat or thin. But I think there are plenty of people out there who would describe me as “petite” or “thin.” Compared to the average American woman, I’m small. But by fashion industry standards, I’m fat. I’ve certainly been called fat by men.

     So maybe when someone says that they’re 5’5″ and 125 pounds or whatever they may be, they’re trying to offer something concrete instead of a term like “thin” which is pretty fluid, and means very different things to different people in different contexts.

126. a term like “thin” which is pretty fluid, and means very different things to different people in different contexts.

     For example, i’m 5’8 or a shade above and 131 pounds, and I have no idea if i’m way too fat or disgustingly bony. I’ve had people tell me both. The only constant is the disgust and derision.

127. I have no idea if i’m way too fat or disgustingly bony. I’ve had people tell me both. The only constant is the disgust and derision.–Ugly in Pink

     Bad people, very bad people! Unfortunately scolding people doesn’t work as well as scolding dogs.

     Edith, I also strongly agree that “fat” women face more pressure than skinny women. That doesn’t mean that the women who were describing our own bodies as “normal” or “thin” don’t face massively skewed body perceptions as well. Aside from standards of beauty, perceptions about size and stereotypes about different size women influence how some people perceive individual women. For example, I know that some men treat small thin women like they are “cute little things” and the implication is that they are easier to control and even childlike because of their size.

128. I’m not saying thin women still can’t complain about the beauty industry, even if they match up to the trendy standards of the day. But such complaining can’t be done in a vacuum without seriously acknowledging relative privilege and so forth.

     As both Jill and UiP have pointed out, even women who match the standards are told constantly that they’re fat. This model whose picture we’re looking at? I guarantee you that half of the photographers she’s worked with (if not all of them) have told her she needs to lose weight because she’s too fat.

     Still want to talk about how oh-so-privileged she is because she’s not objectively fat, she’s only constantly informed that she’s fat, no matter what her weight?

129. I’ll go with Interrobang, it’s genetic, not about your size. My hips are “birthing hips” and my torso’s just a bit too short to find any decent shirts. Not sure how the pounds and feet translate into the metric system, though. Anyway, my clavicles stick out so people have asked me if I was sick…

130. Thanks for the thoughtful responses.

     So maybe when someone says that they’re 5′5″ and 125 pounds or whatever they may be, they’re trying to offer something concrete instead of a term like “thin” which is pretty fluid, and means very different things to different people in different contexts.

     Jill, I think that’s probably true.

     Accurate (though unsurprising) because by definition, the majority of women are normal.

     Also true Cate… a very helpful post.

     I’m just relating my experience to the article.

     Mael, thanks for explaining that, and it seems to me a very valuable experience to relate.

     Minute scrutiny is pressed on women, and it’s nice to be able to share all the results of so many years of close scrutiny in a safe space.

     Willa, I think this is seeing what I was seeing in a much more positive light that I ought to consider.

     More clarified (but still probably not clear) thoughts:

     I get very nervous/suspicious when women in a group start talking about body “flaws” to one another, especially when the group of women appears to be made of fairly typically-sized people. I feel nervous/suspicious NOT because I believe there is some kind of competition among oppressions going on. I don’t think people are being defensive or thoughtless or braggy or off-topic. I don’t think certain people have more of a right to complain than others. I know all women have it shitty in terms of body confidence.

     What makes me nervous is that these conversations in some ways remind me of “I’m too fat/thin” “no you’re not, you’re pretty! I’m too fat/thin!” discussions in middle school among average-sized girls. The point of those exchanges wasn’t to share in a safe place. It was to make sure others knew we weren’t too confident about ourselves, and to elicit approval from others about our bodies. It was part of fitting in.

     I am very much willing to admit that I may be the only one on Feministe still stuck in this era. I worry because I keep feeling the impulse to tell you all how much I weigh and how tall I am and what dress size I wear– just as I do in any discussion in which weights/sizes come up. Do I feel the impulse because it’s relevant to the topic of the NYT article? Not really. I feel the impulse because laying the “flaws” of my body–even if it is “thin” or “normal”– bare seems like a requirement to being accepted in groups of women.

     I realize that the sharing of body concerns doesn’t always have to be a negative, threatening discussion. It’s just never been anything but that kind of discussion for me. I see someone write “I’m 5’X” and weigh XXX lbs and I feel I am fat/thin/curvy/whatever” and part of me immediately, insecurely compares that to my own body. Am I heavier? Lighter? Taller? Shorter? Would she think I’m fat? Thin? Where do I stand in this group? Do I need to say what I weigh? Should I lie?

     I wish that part didn’t exist– I wish she’d stayed behind in middle school– but she’s certainly there and gets very intimidated in these discussions. Maybe I’m the only one in this place, but the fact that at least one person thought I was implying other women were “fat ugly bitches” in my original post indicates otherwise, I think.

131. Mostly Normal, I agree with what you are saying about the middle school mentality.

     It just occured to me now, but I think that another reason why so many women, myself included, felt the need to describe their bodies in our comments is because we are writing on the internet and don’t have the visually cues we would normally have in conversation. Saying my proportions is a way for me to “be there” in the disscussion, so that people can have a better idea of who I am and what my biases and experiences are than if I remained completely anonymous about what I look like.

132. What makes me nervous is that these conversations in some ways remind me of “I’m too fat/thin” “no you’re not, you’re pretty! I’m too fat/thin!” discussions in middle school among average-sized girls. The point of those exchanges wasn’t to share in a safe place. It was to make sure others knew we weren’t too confident about ourselves, and to elicit approval from others about our bodies. It was part of fitting in.

     Oh have I been there and done that. 🙂 And I found out recently that, sadly, it’s not restricted to middle school. Way more grown women than you think will suddenly revert to that “in group/out group” behavior, especially online.

     (Not here, but at a message board I used to participate in. The Mean Girls — and I’m not joking, they actually considered Mean Girls an instructional film — drove everyone else away in a matter of a few months. And these were women in their 20s and 30s, not teenagers, some of them with kids of their own.)

133. Frumious B at 90: Thank you!

     Collarbones as a standard of beauty are not bad because the menz find them ugly (which seems to have come up in this thread a bit). Collarbones as a standard of beauty are bad because they promote self-hatred and health problems in women.

134. Frumious B at 90 (again): “You are right, but the consumerism and class markers are all defined by and for a patriarchal society where the Male Gaze is the only one that matters. Women arguably dress for other women, but the Male Gaze is the measuring stick.”
     It’s also interesting that the way women sometimes try to free themselves from oppressive beauty standards in fashion is to prove how they match the different beauty standards of the male gaze.

     Jill at 111: “I don’t think anyone is trying to have a competition of oppressions here. Yes, fat people are targeted far worse than thin people in society at large. There’s a whole lot more fat-hatred than skinny-hatred. I don’t think anyone on the thread is trying to say that being skinny is a horrible oppression. But I do think people are pointing out that thinness is not the only beauty standard, and that thin women deal with their share of beauty-bullshit, too. ”
     The way I see it, as someone who is medically “lean” or “thin”, though substantially heavier than the average model or actress, I have thin or beauty privilege because I am spared the crap thrown at fat women. I am considered ugly at times and treated badly because of it, but it is because I have a flat chest, flat ass, body hair, etc. not because I am thin.
     Even if you are thin, you are never thin enough. There is always someone thinner and you always fear backsliding (if you’ve lost weight). I thought I was fat when I was 15 pounds heavier and even after losing it (not via dieting, but via stress and a new job) I still fear that I am fat and wish I could be skinnier.

     As an aside, no matter what the stupid articles say, no perfect body part is a magic bullet. Sort of related to the ongoing discussion about light skin/racism, a lot of Asians get plastic surgery to give themselves double eyelids or a more pert nose. I have double eyelids and a pert nose, but that doesn’t mean I’m beautiful or that people aren’t racist against me.

135. I will make no apologies for my body.
     It is my home; it is where I live everyday.
     I am proud of the breath it provides me life;
     I am proud of this face that lights up when I smile;
     I am proud of these fingers that reach out to others;
     I am proud of these eyes that convey understanding and compassion;
     I am proud of this heart that beats strong and passionately;
     I am proud of this voice that speaks for justice.
     I inhabit this body.
     This body is part of me.
     I will protect it; I will nourish it; I will comfort it;
     I will marvel at its beauty.
     I will not be shamed into denying the beauty of this body that is a part of me.

136. I’ll be surprised + disappointed if this picture doesn’t show up on Go Fug Yourself. It’s a record of the exact kind of fashion atrocity that blog was created to address.

     The model looks like a piece of silverware caught in the midst of being strangled by a serviette and a tablecloth. For cripes’ sake. Never mind whether I’m fat or thin, the point I want to make is: Fat or thin, I’m supposed to want to look like that? Are you freakin’ kidding me? Never mind the size of my clavicles and whether or not I enjoy showing them off; the issue is that I ought to have the opportunity to show off my clavicles, if I want to do that, or not, if that’s the alternative I’d rather select, in clothes that don’t look dumb.*

     The fashion industry’s only justification resides in its ability to provide women with clothes that look nice; if it doesn’t do that, I ask you, what’s the point of it? Every speck of rationality I possess tells me that the fashion industry would be well-advised to make more clothes look better on more women, but the fashion industry’s plan (conversely) seems to be to make more and more clothes that fewer and fewer women can wear. The model above bears every one of the bodily stigmata of upper-classness about her that she can, but even she can’t pull off the raw silk Glad Bag, or whatever it is, that she’s been wrapped up in. Given the amount of ingenuity and money that must be involved in producing this kind of effect, it’s hard to imagine that she hasn’t deliberately been made to look ridiculous.

     But if there’s a purpose behind that, I’m darned if I know what it is.

     *Same goes for any other part of the body or combination of parts of the body.

137. Fruminous B says:
     “Women arguably dress for other women, but the Male Gaze is the measuring stick.”

     No. It doesn’t matter if people are looking. It matters if one thinks people are looking. At all times the process is at least one step removed from reality.

138. bekabot, I have this theory that the fashion industry relies on exclusionary tactics to make us all want something just because we don’t have it.

     Allow me to clumsily illustrate my thought by drawing a rather silly parallel. A while back, when Apple released the new nano, I noticed something. They had 2, 4 and 8 gig models. The 2s came in a few different colors. The 4s came in lots of different colors. The 8s only came in black. No other size came in black (I wanted a blue one, but I more than that, I wanted 8G of memory. I was irritated that I had to choose). Why would the biggest, most expensive nano be the only one completely limited in terms of color?

     Now, if you see someone with a black nano, Apple knows you’ll know that person is the absolute ipod elite. *sarcastic smirk* Apple also knows the person with the black nano will know everyone knows, and maybe that’s part of why they bought it. With older ipods, everyone’s looked the same, and eventually everyone had one, and so you couldn’t be so cool anymore just by having one. So Apple built into their new product line a nifty status signifier and a way for some to separate themselves over all the huge throngs of ipod owners.

     Then, they come along after a few months and release a 2G black nano. After establishing black as the elite color, they offered that status signifier to the public at a lower price (and memory size). Their thinking was (I believe) ‘now that it means something, everyone will want one.”

     Clumsy, I know. But I see it like the Sneetches with no stars, and the ones with stars upon thars. The fashion industry knows that the more elite they make something, the more committed to it their customers will be. While they’re not raking in money for a resonably-priced product from a majority of women, they are able to rake in exhorbitant prices from a “lucky” few who are able to participate in an exclusionary game. Those of us who can’t fit into, look good in, or afford their designs, well, we can alll get the $40 keychain by the designer and that still counts, right?

     And wherever there is haute couture there is also haute misogyny. Fashion designers hate women.

139. Anatolia (#135), thank you for that meditation. I’m going to print that out and post it where I will see it often.

     In relation to the original post and the following discussion, what I feel and what many others appear to be saying is this: having one female body type/shape as a standard of beauty is a recipe for every woman to feel bad about their bodies, either for not fitting the societal ideal or for fitting it and not wanting to. We’re still being carved into pieces if only our appearance and not our whole personhood is taken into account.

     Based on an informal survey of my friends, I think that the clothing industry exists to make women think that there is something wrong with their bodies. I have yet to meet a single woman whether curvy or hipless who can find pants that actually fit her body. … I love clothes, but shopping often makes me depressed about my body. — Melissa M. (#43)

     Word. Just, word.

140. FYI, I’ve discussed the “fat talk” phenomenon here.

141. The fashion industry knows that the more elite they make something, the more committed to it their customers will be. While they’re not raking in money for a resonably-priced product from a majority of women, they are able to rake in exhorbitant prices from a “lucky” few who are able to participate in an exclusionary game. Those of us who can’t fit into, look good in, or afford their designs, well, we can alll get the $40 keychain by the designer and that still counts, right?

     Cate, I know what you’re saying, more or less, but still it seems to me that unless the fashion purveyors are able to make $40 keychains that look less gawdawful than that dress (?) does (‘cuz, seriously, when Scarlett O’Hara got dressed up in her mother’s curtains, she went to the trouble of cutting and sewing the curtains first, instead of just letting gravity do its job, if you see what I mean) they will or at least they ought to lose the loyalty of the women who follow them. Why pay extra just to be made to look stupid? Models in pictures like the one at the top of this post at least are paid to look ridiculous, to the extent that they are made to look ridiculous, so that there is some sense in their behavior. But women who, at their own expense, take it upon themselves as some sort of sacred charge to look as awful as the models sometimes do baffle me.

     I mean, it’s not like you’re going to be magically transformed into a size 2 (or whatever) just because you’re wearing an ugly dress. It’s like, come on, sometimes it isn’t just that you’re too fat to do justice to a get-up that would look better on a thinner woman, it’s that ugly clothes are ugly, full stop. They’re ugly on skinny women and they’re ugly on plumper ones, because, gosh darn it, the clothes themselves are ugly, and no amount of heighty feminine elegance can redeem them. Juicy curviness doesn’t work either, because, as I’ve remarked, the basic problem is with the clothes, which are stupid, not with the women who happen to be wearing the stupid ugly clothes. The women would look good in better togs. The difficulty that interposes itself, to my mind, is that there seems to be some Hans Christian Anderson mentality making the rounds which dictates that it’s forbidden to notice, not that the Empress has no clothes, but that the Empress all too often wears clothes that are dopey, and that her designer-courtiers seem to have made them that way on purpose, for reasons which remain obscure.

     Fashion designers hate women.

     OTOH, guess that would explain it.

142. The difficulty that interposes itself, to my mind, is that there seems to be some Hans Christian Anderson mentality making the rounds which dictates that it’s forbidden to notice, not that the Empress has no clothes, but that the Empress all too often wears clothes that are dopey, and that her designer-courtiers seem to have made them that way on purpose, for reasons which remain obscure.

     Exhibit A: Culottes. Culottes were supposed to be the big thing last year. Every store, from Old Navy to Ann Taylor to Nordstrom, carried a full line of culottes, from denim to tweed (you know, for work).

     And they BOMBED. Hugely. Those things were left on sale racks until the stores finally gave up and shipped them off to wherever failed fashion goes. I don’t think I ever saw a single person outside of a fashion ad wearing culottes.

     And yet we were all supposed to fall in line and wear the ridiculous things. Feh.

143. Case of the Inadvertant Italics: all those italics toward the end of the post-before-last were, uh, unintended. Oops; sorry.

144. 102 comments. We are so consumed with what the fashion industry says ‘about us’. As if they truly give a damn. They want our money, anyone’s money, they want money. To buy houses, yachts, pay their workers, their maids, their horse boarding fees, their gambling addiction, their prostitution fetish, their taxes. Whatever. They want your money.

     You give them no money, they get worried. See?

     You read their stupid magazines, go to their stupid shops and ponder what they show and tell you like its some goddamn mandate on your very existence and they’ve already got you.

     Stay away from the mall, stay out of the boutiques and stop giving a damn. Women spend far more money on keeping up with impossible standards, far more than they should.

     Save your money. Invest it in property, stocks, go to school, start a business for fuck’s sake. Put it into something that will give you something more in return than self loathing, an empty pocket and the idea that you as a woman are an ornament instead of a person.

     I buy at discount stores and thrift stores and only after the clothes I have are thoroughly worn out.

     I intend with every sinew and bone in my aching body, to not die old and impoverished or as a slaving/sniveling dependent of some man who paid my way. The fashion industry tells you that indeed, this is your goal. I find that totally offensive and will not in any way support it with one nickel of my hard earned money.

     –

145. I am sorry, i just read that and sounded very patronizing. I didn’t mean it. It just makes me so angry I can’t even keep it where it belongs. Sorry in advance to those who felt I was attempting to talk down to them, you are my sisters in action, not my enemies, really, I mean it.

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