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Virgnia Tech and Mental Illness

The reporting on the Virginia Tech tragedy has been cringe-worthy for many reasons. The conservative punditry has been worse (especially the bending over backwards to figure out how we can blame Muslims for this one). But of the myriad causes of Cho’s violence cited by people on all sides of the debate, mental illness has been the primary one. And, obviously, that analysis is solid — no one denies that Cho was seriously mentally disturbed, and was not getting the help he needed. But what worries me is where that analysis is going, particularly in conservative circles — where the answer seems to be, “Lock up the crazies. And blame the ACLU if you can’t.”

If you ask me, if we are going to let these crazies run free, not forcing them to be institutionalized, then we need to goddamn well do a better job of protecting the public from them. There’s a reason why they used to be locked up, and it was to protect society. Virginia Tech totally dropped the goddamn ball with this guy; there’s no reason why they should have to educate dangerous people. I know, it’s all about wishy-washy liberal ideals–can’t deny someone with mental illness their “right” to a college education. “Diversity.” My ass. I hope the families of the dead victims sue the hell out of VT for letting this creep anywhere near their kids after all the concerns were raised by students and faculty. I hope they sue the state for letting him go when they had him. I know suing won’t bring their family members back, but maybe it’ll start people thinking about how to deal with lunatics a little better. You can bet if people are faced with multi-million dollar lawsuits, they’ll use their heads.

I’m sick and tired of these crazies and the shit they do to other people. To hell with the simpering ACLU and all these ridiculous liberal idealists who want them to have “rights” like the rest of us without the responsibilities.


Yes, civil liberties be damned — just lock up all the people with mental illnesses!

What Beth conveniently leaves out is the fact that in most states, people who pose an imminent threat to themselves or someone else can be hospitalized against their will. As I understand it, Cho had a court order to be evaluated by a psychiatrist — and it never happened. So that was a failure of the system, not of our laws.

But I think my favorite part of Beth’s post is this: “I’m sick and tired of these crazies and the shit they do to other people. To hell with the simpering ACLU and all these ridiculous liberal idealists who want them to have “rights” like the rest of us without the responsibilities.”

Since when do mentally ill people not have the same responsibilities as the rest of us? If they commit crimes, they’re prosecuted just like “sane” people. And yes, they can plead insanity, but the burden of proof for an insanity defense is pretty high, and it’s a much harder case to make than Law & Order makes it out to be. According to a report to the Minnesota Legislature on the insanity defense:

Insanity pleas and acquittals are relatively uncommon. An eight-state study of 581,000 indictments found 8,979 insanity pleas — a rate of 1.5 percent.

A different study of insanity cases in four states (California, Georgia, Montana, and New York) showed that of 586,000 felony indictments, only 5,300 (0.9%) had a plea of insanity by the defendant.

And of the 5,300 insanity pleas, there were 1,385 acquittals by reason of insanity — 0.23 percent of indictments and 26 percent of insanity pleas. A study of adult defendants represented by the Public Defender’s office in New Jersey found 52 insanity pleas for 32,000 defendants (less than 0.2%) and of the 52 cases, 15 were successful.

So let’s drop the argument that mentally ill people somehow lack the same responsibilities and punishments as “the rest of us” (interesting how that line is drawn, too, as if there’s a large and clear divide between the “sane” and the “mentally ill”). A significant number of incarcerated persons are living with mental illnesses. Very few of those people get the treatment they need. They are routinely mistreated — mentally ill prisoners are routinely held in solitary confinement or on lockdown, typically for 23 hours a day. This kind of cruel and isolating punishment makes their symptoms worse. The situation is so bad that “A 2003 study found that nearly a quarter of the inmates in lockdown were mentally ill. Of those, nearly 45 percent reported that they had tried suicide and nearly a third reported self-mutilation.”

Further, if someone pleads guilty for reasons of insanity and the jury/judge accepts that defense, they don’t necessarily walk free (especially if they’ve committed a violent crime). They’re often hospitalized indefinitely — and are often held in a mental institution for a longer period of time than they would have been criminally incarcerated.

But yes, blame the ACLU for the mentally ill getting off easy.

The mentally ill are not treated well in our society. Mental illness is horribly stigmatized, and posts like Beth’s are part of the reason why many people are hesitant to seek help. Further, it’s not a matter of “some people are sane, others are crazy.” Metal illness is wide-ranging, and is a term that encompasses everything from depression to schizophrenia to obsessive-compulsive disorder. The kind of depression and mental illness that Cho faced was extreme; it does not follow that every other person with depression should be locked up against their will. It does not follow that every schizophrenic should be locked up against their will. It does not follow that every mentally ill person should be locked up against their will — even if they’re obviously ill, and even if their illness makes us uncomfortable.

What mentally ill people do need is treatment and access to medical care. People who don’t have insurance don’t usually have the luxury of seeing a therapist; even if they manage to do that, paying out-of-pocket for medications is not easy. People need to be able to see a therapist without being branded “crazy.” Those who are severely mentally ill and who also lack resources need help and empathy, not scorn. Mental illness needs to be seen as it is — a continuum in which there is no clear line between “mentally ill” and not, and where many (even most) types of mental illness are treatable and manageable. The face of mental illness is the ranting homeless man on the corner, but it’s also a member of your family, a friend, a co-worker. If people like Beth actually want to combat mental illness, they wouldn’t promote locking up any person who showed signs of it — they’d promote a universal health care system that would give all people the medical care they need, and they’d make efforts to de-stigmatize mental illness so that people would actually be receptive to that care.

This is something that I take very personally. A close member of my family is living with an untreated mental illness — untreated largely because mental illness is so stigmatized that she doesn’t want to admit that she has one and needs care. She isn’t violent, and she does not have the kind of illness that is thought to be violence-related. But she is deteriorating. And while I wish — really, really wish — she would take medication, I do not think she needs to be locked up if she doesn’t. She is a person who deserves the basic human right to not have medical care forced on her.* Her mental illness does not render her sub-human. And I don’t think it helps her when people like Beth rant about “locking up the crazies.”

The Virginia Tech shooting was a horrible tragedy, and it certainly did highlight the problem of mental illness in our society. But what it should tell us is that people need greater access to mental health care, and that accessing mental health care must not be loaded with stigma and shame. Stripping people of their civil liberties is not the answer. Empowering them — and indeed, simply making it possible for them — to seek help does not completely solve the problem, but it is a step in the right direction.

*Unless, as is the current standard, she is a threat to herself or someone else.


84 thoughts on Virgnia Tech and Mental Illness

  1. I know suing won’t bring their family members back, but maybe it’ll start people thinking about how to deal with lunatics a little better

    Hey, I have an idea! Let’s lock up all mentally ill people in cages and charge the public money to watch them. That worked so well the last time we tried it, right?

    Jeebus.

  2. I had a fairly minor, but persistent (5+ years), case of depression that ended up requiring medication. Not only did I have to pay for therapy out of pocket, I now cannot get private health insurance for less than $400 a month because of my “pre-existing condition.”

    And let’s not even get into the job I had to leave because they publicly took a promotion away from me once my prospective supervisor found out I was on medication …

  3. I fear last week will lead to further repression of free thinking and even more pressure to conform to the social norms. Somehow, this quote from Martin Luther King seems appropriate. He says it better that I ever could:

    All of us are desirous of living the well-adjusted life. I know I am, and we must be concerned about living a well-adjusted life in order to avoid neurotic and schizophrenic personalities. But I say to you… that there are certain things without our social order to which I am proud to be maladjusted, and I call upon you to be maladjusted to all of these things. I never intend to become adjusted to segregation and discrimination. I never intend to adjust myself to the viciousness of mob rule. I never intend to adjust myself to economic conditions which take necessities from the masses to give luxuries to the classes. I never intend to adjust myself to the madness of militarism and the self-defeating effects of physical violence.

  4. Some researchers have theorized that in pre-modern societies, people with schizophrenia were considered to be shamans and witch-doctors, and were correspondingly much higher status than they are today. Interestingly, shamans lived much longer than schizophrenics do in modern societies, and their symptoms seemed to mellow with age, whereas schizophrenics don’t often recover. The whole story is strongly suggestive of the idea that the mentally ill do much better when they’re treated better.

    Sorry I don’t have any links here- this is just off of memory.

  5. The thing about all of this is that I probably wouldn’t call Cho or any of the other people who do these kinds of things mentally ill. They are simply people who feel they are entitled to exact their righteous rage on whomever they deem deserves it, much like the God most Americans worship, in whose image we were all supposedly made. You can’t believe in the inherent justice of a spiteful, belligerent god, to whom you attribute no mental instability, no chemical imbalance, while at the same time pretending as if people who follow in his example are batshit loony. They aren’t crazy; they’ve simply taken society’s teachings to their logical, albeit extreme, conclusions.

    I bet if people didn’t celebrate gods (and by extension, governments and notorious individuals) who smite people, people wouldn’t see smiting as an acceptable outlet for their frustrations, most of which are only figments of the societal imagination anyway. I mean, come on, not getting laid (or any of the other frustrations “suffered” by Cho) is only so fraught because of men’s entitled upbringing, which asserts that the male orgasm is some female’s (or female stand-in’s) responsibility.

    Anyway, before I get too far off-topic, I just wanted to close with the fact that men who do these things are acting quite reasonably given the conditions in which they’ve been raised. Society routinely imbues people with some pretty fucked up expectations and it is neither surprising nor crazy when people act on them.

  6. Also worth mentioning is the fact that there isn’t good evidence that mentally ill people are more likely to commit violent acts than non-mentally ill people. See here, for example.

    From the abstract:

    Members of the public exaggerate both the strength of the association between mental illness and violence and their own personal risk

    .

    research supports the view the mentally ill are more often victims than perpetrators of violence.

  7. It seems pretty obvious to me that if getting help for mental illness could get you incarcerated for life, a lot of people would be much more reluctant to seek help for themselves or other people. I have actually sought help for a friend whom I thought was a danger to herself. I wouldn’t have done it if I’d thought that it was more likely to destroy her life than to save it.

    The thing about all of this is that I probably wouldn’t call Cho or any of the other people who do these kinds of things mentally ill. They are simply people who feel they are entitled to exact their righteous rage on whomever they deem deserves it,

    In general, I think you’re probably right, but in this particular instance, there seems to be some evidence that Cho actually was mentally ill. Whether his mental illness caused him to kill 32 people is another issue.

  8. By all means, let’s lock up all the “crazy” people, but for God’s sake don’t impede their access to deadly weapons!

    Do these people ever listen to themselves, much less anyone else?

  9. How about this?

    I was in graduate school, studying clinical psychology when they began shutting down the asylums. The place was California, the time was the early 1970s, and “they” were an unprecedented confederation of progressives, libertarians and fiscal conservatives.

    From the left marched battalions of self-styled mental health “liberation activists” steeped in the writings of Scottish psychiatrist R.D. Laing. Though he denied being opposed to his own profession, Laing’s notion that madness could be a reasonable reaction to an unjust society, or even a vehicle for spiritual transformation, helped fuel the anti-psychiatry movement of the post Love-In era. The most radical of Laingians carried revisionism one step further: Not only wasn’t psychosis a bad thing, it was evidence of a superior level of consciousness.
    ….
    The basic premise of Community Psych–that severely mentally ill people could be depended on to show up for treatment voluntarily–never made sense to me. The core of the most common and debilitating psychosis, schizophrenia, is degradation of thought and reason. So the idea that people with fractured minds could and would make rational, often complex decisions about self-care seemed preposterous.
    ………….
    If the Virginia Tech shooter had been locked up for careful observation in a humane mental hospital, the worst-case scenario would’ve been a minor league civil liberties goof: an unpleasant semester break for an odd and hostile young misanthrope who might’ve even have learned to be more polite. Yes, it’s possible confinement would’ve been futile or even stoked his rage. But a third outcome is also possible: Simply getting a patient through a crisis point can prevent disaster, as happens with suicidal people restrained from self-destruction who lose their enthusiasm for repeat performances.

    But all this remains in the realm of fantasy. Penning up and carefully scrutinizing the killer was never an option. Not in Virginia or California or any other state in the union. Because in our well-intentioned quest to maximize personal liberty, we’ve moved conceptual eons away from taking the concept of dangerousness seriously.

    So before people start condemning Beth as being “the problem”, understand the frustration of being told on one hand society is not allowed to institutionalize people like Cho and on the other hand individuals are also not allowed to defend themselves when people like Cho break into violence.

    IMO it is no accident that it was a 76 year old Holocaust survivor that actively challenged Cho’s murderous evil.

  10. norbiz, that was my immediate thought too. Don’t like that the “crazies” are running free? Blame St. Reagan for turning them out of their treatment facilities.

  11. But what it should tell us is that people need greater access to mental health care, and that accessing mental health care must not be loaded with stigma and shame.

    I agree totally with this and wanted to give an example why. One of my co-workers, a divorced mother of two, looked like she had been crying. It turned out that she had exhausted our company’s lifetime mental health benefit for her teenaged daughter, who had what I thought of as emotional problems. In order to get further treatment for her daughter, the mother had to officially abandon her, so that the state could pick up the tab. What a choice for a parent to have to make, I thought. Showing the stigma attached to mental health treatment, our lifetime benefit for mental health care was 1/4 the benefit for physical health care. I guess mental illness was not considered as “real” or as necessary to treat as physical illness.

  12. Indeed. Barbera Ehernriech has an interesting take on this…she points to the commodification of mental health care: premium access to therapy as the accessory of upward mobility, and pricing the working class out of it by restrictive insurance policies and rising costs.

    http://ehrenreich.blogs.com/barbaras_blog/2007/04/our_broken_ment.html

    The continued “debate” over the humanity of a people that mainstream America has dehumanized is a classic…it is at the core of sexism, racism, xenophobia, and the fear of the mentally ill. Jill, thank you for posting this.

  13. Showing the stigma attached to mental health treatment, our lifetime benefit for mental health care was 1/4 the benefit for physical health care. I guess mental illness was not considered as “real” or as necessary to treat as physical illness.

    Ironically, mental illness and physical illness often go hand-in-hand, whether it’s that the mentally ill person neglects their health, or that they’re in bad health and it causes depression. Trying to treat only one side of the equation is like putting a Band-Aid on a sucking chest wound.

  14. Well, thanks to the policies the right now decries — thanks to privacy policies and good student health services — I made it through college and grad school despite repeated mental breakdowns and involuntary hospitalizations. I was never a threat to others, only to myself… but I’d like to think I’m more productive where I am now than rotting in an institution.

  15. Do these commentators have any idea how many people they’re proposing locking up? The number of people with mental illness is simply huge.

    The scary thing to me is that many of the small things that were supposedly signs of Cho’s imminent destruction are things a much younger me displayed. Violent writings? Check. Few friends? Check. An elaborate fantasy life? Check. Odd interactions with others? Check. Shyness? Check. Hiding one’s face with a baseball cap? Check. Suicidal ideation? Check.

    The differences: my gender, I never harassed anyone, and I didn’t make any effort to acquire deadly weapons.

  16. Jill, thanks for this post. I’ve struggled with mental illness for years now, and it is tiresome in the extreme to have to explain myself to everyone I know. And that’s without overt discrimination or – as Beth here appears to be advocating – threats to put me away.

    The “lock ’em up and throw away the key” mentality strikes me as far more dangerous to society at large than mental illness in general – the lack of empathy is truly disturbing.

  17. Since when do mentally ill people not have the same responsibilities as the rest of us? If they commit crimes, they’re prosecuted just like “sane” people. And yes, they can plead insanity, but the burden of proof for an insanity defense is pretty high, and it’s a much harder case to make than Law & Order makes it out to be.

    In fact, in Virginia, had Cho not killed himself and been tried for his crimes, it’s unlikely even he would have been found insane. The standard in most states since John Hinckley was found not guilty by reason of insanity – the so-called M’Naughton Rule – is that a defendant can only be found not culpable if he didn’t know that his act was “wrong.” It seems pretty clear from what I’ve seen and read that Cho knew killing 32 people was wrong, he just didn’t care.

    I’m not sure where that leaves us, but the legal system in general, and the criminal justice system in particular, rarely, if ever, creates any special rights for the “crazies.” And from an incarceration/institutionalization point of view, it would be impossible to adequately define who the “crazies” are.

  18. Darleen, I had to delete your link because for some reason it led back to our moderation queue, not to whatever site you wanted to reference. Feel free to re-post it.

  19. The real problem is that there aren’t really intermediate states between involuntary commitment (the experience of which, at least the way our mental health systems works now) is comparable to being arrested in terms of humiliation and unpleasantness. Perhaps worse in terms of the dehumanization and total loss of agency. And locked wards in mental hospitals, even the best ones that money can give you access to, are pretty much the last places you want to spend any time, especially if you’re a borderline functional person, you’re surrounded by people who are by and large incapable of sustained social interaction, in an environment with very few distractions, and with no privacy and no control over how you spend your time.

    The mental health system is currently, because institutions are terrible places to spend any amount of time, oriented towards stabilizing whatever symptoms you display as quickly as possible, which usually means aggressive doses of medication. These work, sometimes, but the side effects range from unpleasant to debilitating, and for some medications, are permanent.

    People say Cho should have gotten “treatment”, but standard treatment for psychosis-type illnesses often involves medication that leaves the patient too sedated, and their thinking too slowed, for them to manage anything as complex and intense as a full course schedule at a typical college.

    Of course, he should have been receiving counseling, which could have helped, but there’s not a good way to make a patient see a therapist if they don’t want to. And since mental health treatment is often so unpleasant, patients often end up with deeply antagonistic attitudes towards the whole profession which hinder effective monitoring and treatment.

    My brother is nineteen and struggling with serious mental illness. He enjoys very generous health insurance through my father’s job, a stay-at-home mother who now functions as an essentially full-time caseworker, and a very progressive community with excellent support resources, but none of those advantages have protected our family from having to deal with a series of very shitty tradeoffs between his independence and his real impairments, between what the doctors recommend and what he can tolerate in terms of treatment, between his ability to function on a daily basis, and the fear of the return of his psychosis.

    Humane care is, I’m sorry, a load of crap. There’s no way to make being locked up against your will humane. There’s no way to make the experience of being surrounded by people who can’t function humane. There’s no way to get around the fact that we don’t know enough about the causes of mental illness to progress beyond our current treatments, which are, frankly, terrible.

  20. Beth also conflates a couple of issues — there is the matter of under what circumstances someone can be institutionalized and there is the issue of what people at Virginia Tech could have done. A university does not have the standing to forcibly institutionalize someone, though university officials can and did refer Cho for diagnosis. They could perhaps have expelled him, but that would not guarantee that he would not have done pretty much what he wound up doing — it’s possible that he would have seen it as yet another wrong against him that needed to be redressed with violence.

    There are extraordinary things that happen that are beyond the capacities of existing institutions to deal with. Conservatives who are blaming Virginia Tech remind me of conservatives who blame New Orleanians for not being able to deal with Katrina. Something tragic happens to a group that they have something against (higher ed institutions, minority and/or Democratic urban populations), and they rejoice in it and look for ways that it confirms their worldview. That is not to say that everyone did everything perfectly, but it seems that an awful lot of people did the best with what they had to work with, and you have to be working pretty hard at grinding your favorite ax to engage in the kind of diatribes and blanket condemnations that these people are putting forth.

  21. Blondesense has a great post about this topic; I would rather direct you there than re-type it.

    Go look at Blondesense! I would do a link but I haven’t learned how yet.

  22. What Beth conveniently leaves out is the fact that in most states, people who pose an imminent threat to themselves or someone else can be hospitalized against their will.

    And not for long, either. Usually 72 hours or so for involuntary commitments.

    Gone are the days of state-funded mental hospitals where inmates were kept there for so many years they couldn’t function in the outside world. My mother spent a summer working as an art therapist in the late 50s at Greystone, the state mental hospital in New Jersey. There were inmates there who remembered my grandfather, who’d worked there (and lived on the grounds) in the late 20s/early 30s. And these were not people who posed a danger to themselves or anyone else, just a little crazier than the average.

    Lock up the crazies, they say, but then they complain about the bill.

    So before people start condemning Beth as being “the problem”, understand the frustration of being told on one hand society is not allowed to institutionalize people like Cho and on the other hand individuals are also not allowed to defend themselves when people like Cho break into violence.

    IMO it is no accident that it was a 76 year old Holocaust survivor that actively challenged Cho’s murderous evil.

    Rambo fantasies aside, Darleen, what exactly would have been the impetus for locking up Cho prior to all this? He was disturbed, that much is known, but unless he makes specific threats, or is assessed as an IMMINENT danger to himself or others, locking him up is just prior restraint.

    And that kind of thing leads nowhere good. It leads to anyone who looks at you funny being labeled “crazy” and locked up without trial.

    Oh, BTW — there were plenty of other people who “challenged” Cho’s “evil.” It’s just that a lot of them are dead now.

  23. Do these commentators have any idea how many people they’re proposing locking up? The number of people with mental illness is simply huge.

    20 million Americans, at any point, have clinical depression according to the government. And that’s just depression. That’s 1/15 of us… and the proposed solution is to lock up anyone with a “mental illness?”

    Unless I’m wildly off base in my understanding of things here, I believe that universities have plenty of options when it comes to mentally ill students. At my liberal, well-funded university, students who finally got an appointment with a university therapist after weeks on a waitlist knew never to mention suicidal feelings. If they did, they risked being put in the city’s rather notorious mental institution, or just kicked out of school.

    I echo the sentiments of many people in the comments section… it is very difficult to be able to afford therapy and medication for mental illness, but it is very easy to acquire firearms. That’s the problem.

  24. By all means, let’s lock up all the “crazy” people, but for God’s sake don’t impede their access to deadly weapons!

    Now, now. She’s in favour of impeding their access to deadly weapons. She said so. Just because she’s a proud member of an organization that would oppose pretty much any practical measure taken to stop “loonies” from purchasing guns, you think she’s not serious about stopping them from having guns! That’s so unfair! Didn’t you see how she ranted and raved about how crazy people shouldn’t have guns? That should be enough!

  25. IMO it is no accident that it was a 76 year old Holocaust survivor that actively challenged Cho’s murderous evil.

    A very odd statement given the topic of this debate, since during the Holocaust Nazis killed a quarter of a million mentally ill people.

    Before you complain that I’m comparing you to a Nazi (I’m not), I’m not suggesting that you have intentions of physically harming the mentally ill. But persecution of the mentally ill to keep society safe and clean is not new–the US was engaging in forced sterilization of the mentally ill into the late thirties–and I see no proof that good comes of it. If someone commits or threats to commit an illegal act, that’s one thing; if they’re just “crazy,” that is a far different thing.

  26. The legal standard of “insanity” in most US jurisdictions is quite out of whack with the measurements used by mental health professionals.

    The result being that a lot of mentally ill people are found to be legally culpable for their actions, and are then incarcerated in environments that do not provide adequate opportunities for treatment and recovery. (if recovery is even possible – which in some cases it is not)

  27. The real problem is that there aren’t really intermediate states between involuntary commitment (the experience of which, at least the way our mental health systems works now) is comparable to being arrested in terms of humiliation and unpleasantness. Perhaps worse in terms of the dehumanization and total loss of agency. And locked wards in mental hospitals, even the best ones that money can give you access to, are pretty much the last places you want to spend any time, especially if you’re a borderline functional person, you’re surrounded by people who are by and large incapable of sustained social interaction, in an environment with very few distractions, and with no privacy and no control over how you spend your time.

    Psyche, I’ve spent a lot of time as a patient in locked wards. (Total: about six-seven weeks over the course of a half dozen hospitalizations between 1987-1998).Though there were some awful moments, and I was always glad to leave, they were — at times — refuges. I was, as a suicidal person, acutely conscious that I was safe, at least for a while, and cared for.

  28. As someone who is currently in a masters program to become a therapist, I have some pretty strong views on this topic. In my opinion, the scariest part of this whole tragedy is the fact that the system DID NOT fail. Cho exhibited signs of being mentally unstable, through both his behaviors and his writings. Authorities were called, he was committed to a mental facility for the 72 hour maximum, recommended to counseling, and he opted not to take it. You can’t mandate anyone to see a counselor just like you can’t mandate them to see a physician for a physical illness. Being suicidal does not necessarily make one homicidal, so there is no way anything that Cho did before last Monday could have definitively predicted he would fly off the handle. Lots of people semi-stalk classmates and don’t go on a killing rampage.

    We could try and live in a “Minority Report” type of society where we “lock up all the crazies” before they commit crimes, but thats just not possible, or moral if it were even realistic. I think the dialogue now should be how do we try to fix it so this doesn’t happen again. How about working to destigmatize mental illness, something many people here have said and the exact opposite of Beth’s commentary. Then, once people aren’t so disgusted with the idea of talking to someone, ALLOW THEM TO DO IT by having basic insurance cover more than 20 sessions a year with a $25 copay, if not worse than that.

    Lets stop trying to point fingers, or make all mental illness as a factor in potential violence. It’s just counterproductive to what really needs to happen in this country to help prevent this from ever happening again.

  29. Okay, this made me snicker bitterly:

    “The basic premise of Community Psych–that severely mentally ill people could be depended on to show up for treatment voluntarily–never made sense to me.”

    Of course, we never actually tried Community Psych, at least not here in California. We just released everyone from mental hospitals, gave them $20 and a pat on the head, and sent them out to roam the streets with no additional help.

    If we had some kind of Community Psych system and this had still happened, this might be a decent talking point. But it’s kinda silly to say, “Well, sure, we don’t have Community Psych, but there’s no way it would have worked anyway, so the only solution is to lock people up.”

    Not to mention … Cho was briefly institutionalized on the university’s recommendation. Didn’t help much, because there was no follow-up due to our lack of — say it with me now — Community Psych.

  30. You can’t mandate anyone to see a counselor just like you can’t mandate them to see a physician for a physical illness.

    Actually, you can, if they’re a drunk driver or a drug user or a domestic abuser. They may call it AA meetings or rehab or anger management therapy, but that’s mandatory counseling. It’s only for people who really need the mental health assistance that you can’t mandate it.

  31. Do these morons even know what mental illnesses are?

    I have a phobia: I’m terrified of telephones. (Not seeing or handling them, but talking on them or pressing any of the buttons.)

    That’s a mental illness. I’ve received some therapy; I can now (barely) manage to call people I know, though I still shake and sweat when I do.

    I am not now, nor have I ever been, likely to kill someone because I’m afraid of telephones.

    But I’m mentally ill. I have a phobia.

    So, all those people out there who think the mentally ill should be locked away “for the safety of others” – should I be locked up?

    There is no mental illness worse than the chronic lack of empathy displayed by these morons. They should be the ones locked away – not me, not my depressed brother, not my schizophrenic friend.

  32. I did a round-up of bloggy posts from the disability/mental illness perspective a couple days ago at my site. Given the rumors that Cho had autism, along with info about his use of anti-depressants, his interaction with mental health professionals, etc. this is of grave concern to many in the disability community. I didn’t write anything original, but the people I linked to have some important points to make.

  33. Actually, you can, if they’re a drunk driver or a drug user or a domestic abuser. They may call it AA meetings or rehab or anger management therapy, but that’s mandatory counseling. It’s only for people who really need the mental health assistance that you can’t mandate it.

    I think we’re saying the same thing. Being a substance abuser is diagnosable using the DSM IV, so I consider it a mental illness. (I know many might not) I was more saying that you can’t force your neighbor to see someone when it’s very clear that he has broken his ankle if he insists he’s going to walk it off. Of course, his wobbling around doesn’t really put anyone else at risk, which is why this whole scenario surrounding treatment for mental illness gets stickier.

  34. #30 MN

    My bringing up of Liviu Librescu was not in reference to “locking up” the mentally ill, but with the conflict that is set up when we put up insurmountable obstacles to getting people like Cho into an institution while inculcating young people with the idea they should not protect themselves.

    Yes, the US engaged in forced sterilization (shall I bring up Margaret Sanger’s motivations in starting Planned Parenthood?)… However, does that tainted past justify the other extreme of allowing the severe mentally ill to “choose” to live on the streets?

    The libertarians were fueled by Thomas Szasz, an iconoclastic psychiatrist who was, and remains, an outspoken foe of virtually every aspect of his chosen specialty. Hungarian-born in 1920, and witness to vicious state exploitation of medical practice by the Nazis and the communists, Dr. Szasz pushed an absolutist dogma of individual choice, finding ready converts among members of the Do-Your-Own-Thing generation. Though his early essays offered much-needed critiques of the Orwellian nightmares that can result when autocracy corrupts health care, Dr. Szasz devolved into something of a psychiatric Flat-Earther, insisting in the face of mounting contrary evidence that mental illness simply does not exist. Currently, he serves on a commission, cofounded with the Church of Scientology, that purports to investigate human rights violations perpetrated by mental health professionals.

  35. Many in the autism community were very concerned that the media announced that Cho had autism (later some reports were corrected to say he had not been diagnosed with autism). The fear is that people with autism will be further stigmatized by society, even just as they are beginning to gain some acceptance. I posted the text of a reaction from AutismLink right here.

    As for me, I do not know whether or not Cho had autism. But I can say that many of the kids who are “high-functioning” (and this applies to any disability, not just autism), who maintain decent grades and cause relatively few problems, often fall through the cracks. We struggle to get my son the services he needs because he doesn’t “appear” to be disabled and he doesn’t act up. These kids simply fall through the cracks, even when their parents try desperately to help them.

    It has been my experience that as a parent of a child with special needs, I have to put in HOURS and HOURS of effort to secure services for my child with very little return. I have also had to expend THOUSANDS of dollars in fees for specialists, attorneys, and advocates… just to keep my head above water in the “system”. But there are many parents who don’t have the resources to fight that fight. Or, they have been socialized to never question an educator. Or, they don’t feel empowered to stand up. For many immigrants, who don’t speak English as their first language, it is a very difficult process to be involved in. I know folks in my support group who have been outright ridiculed by school officials when they tried to participate in the proceedings. Its a very intimidating process that can consume your life.

    Virginia, where I live and where Cho went to school is rated very low compared to other states for services available to those who are disabled. This is not the state to come to if your child needs help.

    As we continue to miss opportunities to help these kids while they are in school, many citizens are unaware that this is a problem at all. The better we service these kids while they are young, the more productive they will be as citizens and less of a burden when they are adults. I think if more people knew this, they would be more amenable to increased spending in these areas. But even other parents in my school are completely unaware about the difficulties families with special needs children have.

    Sadly, for all my efforts to get my child the services he needs, I am fighting a losing battle. But, at the end of the day, all my efforts will mean that at the very least that I have a paper trail a mile long starting at age 3 showing that I begged and pleaded for better services and interventions for my child.

  36. What scares me is how this incident will further worsen how universities treat individuals with mental disorders. I have for a while heard of cases where students who have attempted suicide have been kicked off of campus for liability reasons. This is not only seems insensitive but dangerous to do to a depressed student. After these shootings, I fear that many colleges may take a “proactive” approach if a student seeks help and try to take displinary action against the student.

  37. #42 Atalantah

    The “zero-tolerance” schtick will not be limited to expelling students with “questionable” behavior

    In the wake of Monday’s massacre at Virginia Tech in which a student killed 32 people, Dean of Student Affairs Betty Trachtenberg has limited the use of stage weapons in theatrical productions.

    According to students involved in the production, Trachtenberg has banned the use of some stage weapons in all of the University’s theatrical productions. While shows will be permitted to use obviously fake plastic weapons, students said, those that hoped to stage more realistic scenes of stage violence have had to make changes to their props. *

  38. As president, Ronald Reagan turned the mentally ill out unto the streets, repeating the action he’d done in California as governor.

  39. Darleen,

    How in God’s name can you compare taking away the drama club’s weaponry props to a suicidal person’s life getting WORSE because the campus kicks them off under the thought process of, ‘Well, what if they kill someone!!’

    ?

  40. shall I bring up Margaret Sanger’s motivations in starting Planned Parenthood?

    OLD MEME OLD MEME

  41. My anecdote regarding the American mental health care system– something I still feel bad about years later.
    An online friend had been feeling increasingly down, and spiralling into depression. She had been previously diagnosed with mental illnesses including DID– she was also physically ill so unable to work and the only way for her to get a change of medication for her depressive symptoms was to go to an emergency room. I and a couple of others advised her quite strongly to do that, pleased that at least she was feeling resolved and able to do so much.
    She went to the ER, where she was STRIPPED NAKED AND LOCKED UP– she was left in the room in that state for three or four hours. She didn’t behave violently, she just asked for a fricking pill. Oh, she’s black, which it seems relevant to mention at this point.
    I don’t know what my point is, except that while mental health services suck pretty much everywhere, damn your system needs shaking up. And that, as everyone else said, treating people with mental illnesses badly and stigmatising them is not a great way to get them to seek treatment.

  42. Lorelie

    I wasn’t COMPARING…I was talking about “zero-tolerance” for any behavior that makes the admins nervous …

    sheeh… May I suggest some milk and sugar with that straw?

  43. This guy manages to make a sardonic comment about the victims of the shooting AND make a sexual assault joke within 24 hours. That’s the last time I decide to read random blogs. It’s terrible for the blood pressure.

  44. Lorelie

    I wasn’t COMPARING…I was talking about “zero-tolerance” for any behavior that makes the admins nervous …

    Right, but the other ‘zero-tolerance behavior’ that you cite them being against is… the drama club weaponry. As if the fact that all these other relatively petty things are being regulated makes something like kicking out someone for feeling suicidal (and therefore probably bringing down their mental health that way) better.

  45. As someone who’s been in such an institution, I can assure you this woman has no idea what the hell she’s talking about. (as if it wasn’t clear before)

    You’re bang on, Jill. Thank you.

  46. Atalantah’s right. Universities will kick out suicidal students. I was booted out of the dorms in the late ’90’s after a suicide attempt, and finished the semester walking to campus from the homeless shelter. After this? I’m waiting for the horror stories about students being forcibly locked up and drugged to the gills after telling a campus counselor something like, “Yeah, I really wanted to punch that asshole out.” Has anyone else ever thought “zero tolerance” might be a mispronunciation of “zero commonsense?”

    Sorry. Rambling. Past my bedtime.

  47. As someone with a mood disorder who has been hospitalized against my will (though I never threatened to hurt others) I want to add another perspective.

    Some mentally disabled people DO seek help, only to find out that, at best, the system is one big science experiment and the patients are guinea pigs, or, at worst, it is a racist, sexist, homophobic institution driven by Big Pharma greed.

    Mentally disabled patients are stripped of all human rights the moment we tell someone we are suicidal. ERs and pysch wards take away our clothing and possessions, lock us up, and drug us against our wills. When I was hospitalized, a series of male security gaurds were permitted to FORCIBLY hold me down in my bed. They told me to relax and stop crying. Not so fun for a gang rape survivor.

    When I voluntarily took myself for counseling to help cope with my history of abuse, I was told by two different pyschologists that I must have enjoyed it when I got molested, and that sexual conflicts are “a private matter” between me and my partners that I shouldn’t discuss in therapy.

    After I came out as queer, I was told by a third pyschologist that I’m “just confused” because of all my bad experiences with men.

    The point is that even many of us who came to mental health services with open minds and unfearful of social stigma have been tremendously let down. So-called psychiatric “treatment” can actually serve as further punishment, expecially when the patient is gay and/or female. This isn’t really a surprise, considering that homosexuality and femaleness were both pathologized by doctors until the last half of the twentieth century. (“Its not social oppression and violence thats to blame, the poor perverts and hysterics are just SICK and CRAZY!”)

    The mental health system tends to try to supress or cure whatever is socially undesireable. (Now gender identity disorder is in the DSM, which means trans people are classified as mentally ill). It really makes you skeptical after a while.

    Is society really helping people who are struggling, or are we simply trying to control and sedate eccentric, sensitive, and potentially subversive populations? To tell oppressed groups that its all in their head?

    Things haven’t changed all that much since Nellie Bly went undercover to expose the mistreatment of patients in the asylums decades ago. The saddest part is that many people with mood disorders are highly gifted and creative, with the potential to contribute greatly to music, the arts, literature, etc. (Ex: Van Gogh, Plath, Hemingway, Poe, Anne Sexton, Antoine Atraud, Judy Garland, Virginia Woolf, etc)

  48. A University of Colorado student pleaded not guilty Wednesday to making comments that classmates deemed sympathetic toward the gunman blamed for killing 32 students and himself at Virginia Tech, authorities said.

    During a class discussion Tuesday of Monday’s massacre at Virginia Tech, Max Karson “made comments about understanding how someone could kill 32 people,” university police Cmdr. Brad Wiesley said.

    Several witnesses told investigators Karson, who turns 22 on Thursday, said he was “angry about all kinds of things from the fluorescent light bulbs to the unpainted walls, and it made him angry enough to kill people,” according to a police report. Witnesses “said they were afraid of him and afraid to come to class with him,” Wiesley said.

    Karson, of Denver, was arrested Tuesday on a misdemeanor charge of interfering with staff, faculty or students of an education institution.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/virginia_tech_colorado;_ylt=AuYy0ifEJiFQZ2mpd2kafx6s0NUE

    that’s the bizarre response to this guy, so just imagine the overreaction that’s going to occur with lit students write depressing stories and/or mentally ill people are “outed” on campus.

  49. Jill,

    Thank you for writing this! I, like Rachel a few posts above me, have struggled with mental illness for years. I was diagnosed with major depressive disorder when I was sixteen years old. I have been on some form of medication and in out of therapy for nine years. I have never been suicidal nor homicidal. I am not a danger to society! Beth’s post scares me, not only because she sounds like she needs anger management, but because there are so many close-minded individuals in the world just like her (I’m stating the obvious here) who are so quick to use words like “crazies” and point fingers.

    I am going to stop because I am not really making a point. But, I do have a question for…

    I know, it’s all about wishy-washy liberal ideals–can’t deny someone with mental illness their “right” to a college education. “Diversity.” My ass.

    When we begin defining mental illness as “diversity?’

  50. The thing about the mental illness angle that no one seems to mention– mental illnesses are extrememly common. Like 1 in 100 adults have schizophrenia, 1 in 50 bipolar disorder, 1 in 20 one or more serious mental illnesses that cause real problems functioning day-to-day. Out of an adult population in the hundreds of millions. That’s millions of people who are seriously mentally ill. There’s an awful lot of us ‘crazies’ out here who haven’t gone on a shooting spree and won’t ever.

    And, y’know, our schools are still basically safe places. We get a terrible tragedy like this every so often, and there’s not too much we can do about it.

    Lock up the crazies is about the worst thing we can do. Of course, it’s not going to happen, ‘coz of the cost, but still. Any way of filtering out all the folks most likely to do this kind of thing is going to also grab enormous numbers of people who aren’t, and who would be far more able to deal with their illness and contribute to society without mandatory hospitalization.

    Improving mental health services probably won’t do much either. Yeah, the state of mental health service is shockingly bad, but. It’s hard to get someone who doesn’t want to to go to a therapist, and harder to make them get something out of it if they won’t take it seriously. (you know the lightbulb joke? it’s really true.) There were places where colleges used to threaten to expel people if they didn’t get counseling, and I think in some places they still can, but I’d think someone like Cho would only find that another way society was opressing him. (though perhaps I should avoid the long-distance media-filtered diagnosis)

    We should improve mental health services, particularly on college campuses. (most colleges have 1 full-time counsellor for every 1000-3000 students, not nearly enough) But we shouldn’t pretend we do it to stop tragedies like this from happening. (or maybe we should pretend, as a tactical thing, but it’s not really going to stop anything) They’re still going to happen. We should do it for the rest of the mentally ill population, who really need the help, could contribute much more to society with the help, and for a more humane society that includes everybody, even those of us with a few extra challenges.

    And we should learn to deal with the occasional rare tragedy without acting like the world is ending.

  51. How about another story or two or three to add to the ‘why our system blows’ pool?

    I went to ‘the best mental hospital’ in the tri-state area — Four Winds in Katona. It was a fucking nightmare. The whole place was poorly organized, I spent more time in ‘quiet time’ than therapy, I was condescended by staff something un-fucking-believable, and treated specifically like I was a bad person.

    I’ve had great therapists, for the most part. However, my mother and I were fighting all the time, and to evade having me go on PINS/probation for as long as possible, my therapist at the time thought that going to Four Winds would be a good route.

    So I was being treated for a nonexistant anger problem because of that, and on top of that, the psychiatrist got this delusion that I had bipolar. I flat-out told him that I would never, ever take a mood stabilizer that involved blood tests. So instead, he put me on Depakote and decided to forgo the blood tests. I think this is a totally fantastic idea, when the bloodtests are to assure that I’m not getting liver or pancreatic damage, and my father has diabetes. *FACEPALM*

    In any case, I disliked most of the girls I was in the hospital with because they were, well, mean. I tried to get my therapist to let me eat meals in the unit instead of the cafeteria, and she wouldn’t let me. ‘Well, then, I’m going to sit by myself, I hope you know.’ A bunch of mean girls noticing that you’re actively avoiding them? Not exactly fantastic.

    The shit hit the fan when one day, the staff decided that ALL the girls (what the fuck?) were disrespectful to staff and that we needed to do something about it. Now, despite the girls I was with being mean, I did not blame them for being assholes to staff, because we were ALL treated as though we weren’t particularly human, just diagnosises. We had just had a half-hour of ‘quiet time,’ and they told us that to replace some activity, we’d have another hour of ‘quiet time’ so that we could write about anger and how we deal with it.

    I told them that if I spent another fucking minute in my room that I’d kill myself. They told me that I could not talk to anyone and to just sit in my room. Yes, they told a suicidal person that they were not allowed to speak to anyone, staff, therapist, or otherwise. Fantastic. So instead of writing what they told us, I wrote a critique of their shitty system.

    One boy that was on my unit… he was out as bisexual. He had one friend at the place — it’s not like he didn’t like the other guys, but he was close to this one in particular. The other guy was also out as bisexual. OBVIOUSLY THIS MEANS THEY WANT TO FUCK EACH OTHER — I MEAN, THEY’RE BOTH BISEXUAL. They were roommates, and then they were separated and basically not allowed to interact with each other. Rumor was that they were caught making out, but what really happened was that they were found sitting on a bed together. Sitting, not cuddling, not making out, not fucking, not even holding hands. Uh. They were roommates, for fuck’s sake.

    He tells someone that he wants to run away (good luck with that in Katona, the boonies of hell, but whatever). Word gets back to staff, and protocol is that anyone who wants to run away from the place has to wear pajamas all day and only wear socks and be in sight of staff all the time. So he does that for a few days. As soon as he’s off of that, he tries to hang himself. And here’s staff kind of acting like, ‘ugh, what’s his problem?’ CAN YOU BLAME HIM? You took away his only friend, you practically dehumanize him, and then you WONDER why he’s trying to off himself?!

    Another girl I was friends with went to a different hospital because she tried to kill herself. She had panic disorder, and her reaction to panic attacks was to vomit for some reason. They spent a good amount of time yelling at her, and telling her that she had to reform and or she’d end up going to hell, and telling her what a horrible person she was. So she went on hunger strike, while having panic attacks every day (meaning she was not eating, but still vomiting every day). They ended up HAVING to release her because she was becoming ill. She came out looking like a stereotypical Holocaust survivor.

    Yup. I totally trust the system.

  52. I missed a paragraph between ‘critique of their shitty system’ and ‘another boy on my unit’ —

    I got to read the discharge report from Four Winds not too long ago. They wrote that I was basically rebellious and did not see the ‘value’ of therapy, and that I was nonsocial with other patients, but in a tone of like, ‘we don’t know what her problem is, there was no reason for her to not want to talk to these people.’ Yeah, let’s ignore me telling you that they were assholes. Also, did not see the value of therapy? WHAT THERAPY? And the group therapy was abysmal. It was as if none of them had ever done a group before. And then they bitched at us for not talking. I don’t know, maybe if you knew what you were doing, we’d talk. Thankfully, I have an excellent therapist, so she knows that what they wrote is fucking nonsense. God knows if I had a shitty one, I’d be being treated like a defiant ‘bad kid’ or some ridiculous shit.

    Sorry I can’t articulate this too well, it’s late and it’s bad memories…

  53. When I voluntarily took myself for counseling to help cope with my history of abuse, I was told by two different pyschologists that I must have enjoyed it when I got molested, and that sexual conflicts are “a private matter” between me and my partners that I shouldn’t discuss in therapy.

    I’m sorry, but WTF? If your therapist tells you that something you want to discuss “shouldn’t be discussed in therapy,” that’s one shitty therapist. Good thing you got away from them.

    I had a really good therapist but, considering that she started her career counseling sex addicts, I think she found my depression to be a nice change of pace and was really motivated to help me. And it’s probably not a coincidence that my really good therapist was someone that I was paying for out of pocket, which meant I was able to freely choose her. I didn’t get stuck with whatever random person at the HMO had the heaviest caseload.

  54. Yes, the US engaged in forced sterilization (shall I bring up Margaret Sanger’s motivations in starting Planned Parenthood?)

    If you could actually make it relevant. Which, at the moment, the reference is not.

    However, does that tainted past justify the other extreme of allowing the severe mentally ill to “choose” to live on the streets?

    Have you just ignored every single post on here about people’s experiences being mentally ill and deprived of rights? And are you simply ignoring the fact that Cho, too, was legally deprived of certain rights because of a mental illness (for example, the right to carry a weapon)? What exactly are you complaining about? What exactly would you like to change?

  55. Whoops. “If you could actually make it relevant. Which, at the moment, the reference is not” were my words… not meant to be in a block quote.

  56. Whoa, that post had some scary formatting.

    Could a moderator erase 64 and 65 for me? Trying again:

    Yes, the US engaged in forced sterilization (shall I bring up Margaret Sanger’s motivations in starting Planned Parenthood?)

    If you could actually make it relevant. Which, at the moment, the reference is not.

    However, does that tainted past justify the other extreme of allowing the severe mentally ill to “choose” to live on the streets?

    Have you just ignored every single post on here about people’s experiences being mentally ill and deprived of rights? And are you simply ignoring the fact that Cho, too, was legally deprived of certain rights because of a mental illness (for example, the right to carry a weapon)? What exactly are you complaining about? What exactly would you like to change?

  57. If the Virginia Tech shooter had been locked up for careful observation in a humane mental hospital, the worst-case scenario would’ve been a minor league civil liberties goof: an unpleasant semester break for an odd and hostile young misanthrope who might’ve even have learned to be more polite.

    Heh. Why does this sentence remind me of the classic saying “The beatings will continue until morale improves”? Somehow I don’t think that locking someone who is angry about how he has been treated by the world up is going to make him LESS angry and hostile. More polite, possibly, if you convince him that he is truly completely helpless and has no choice but to go along with what he is told, but not less angry.

  58. Reading this thread I see that people have had a variety of experiences in the mental health system. What I learn from this is that a:) health care in this country is broken and b) further proof that we should not rely on anecdotal evidence. Mental illness is still very difficult to treat, but many illnesses are now treatable, especially depression and bipolar. Many, many people who would otherwise be very sick are living relatively normal lives now. My experience with mental health care, though limited, was very good. I have seen people I knew whose lives where barely livable completely turned around. I have know people who could not be treated because the side effects of the meds kept the off, or during the “musical meds” period before a therapy was found they gave up and stopped trying. But some people have treatable cancer too, but that doesn’t mean people don’t bother seeing a doctor.

    Anyone reading this thread who thinks that psychiatric drugs sound horrible, or scary or are afraid that they will be locked up, stripped naked, etc…I would still suggest seeking help for mental illness. Just bear in mind that you must be an advocate for your own care. If you Dr sucks, find a new one. If something isn’t working, tell them it isn’t. If you are on antidepressants and still feel suicidal, go to the ER. That will get your doc’s attention. Also, make sure you see psychiatrist and a therapist and if they give you medication, TAKE IT. If it doesn’t work that doesn’t mean nothing will work. Tell you Dr. And DO NOT let your general practitioner per scribe you psychiatric medication, you need to see a specialist.

    I don’t want to diminish the shit experiences people had upthread, but private mental health care has come a long way and many illnesses can be treated now and your life really can be better with meds.

    Now, the problem in Virginia Tech is that a tiny percentage of people with mental illnesses (or without) will kill people at random. But that doesn’t tell us much about the system. The system’s fault is that if you don’t have insurance, you are screwed.

  59. While I can’t nearly keep up with all these posts, its interesting to see how many people are excited about this issue. #24 Psyche has a very different perspective on it, which is worth taking another look at if you jumping in late like me. This would be much simpler to deal with if Cho had not actually been mentally ill and was only a kind of strange guy. From the reading I’ve done that is very clearly not the case, there seems to be no question that he actually had a mental problem which was not being treated. So those of you trying to shift the blame from the system to the societal forces which could make someone violent or disturbed, read a little more on that and see if you don’t change your mind. The system did fail the victims of the VT shooting, so the question is how to improve it right? So being the conservative guy, I’ll throw this out there. The mental health care system could be more effectively, efficiently, and emphatically run by State and Local governments than by the Federal government. Provided that the Federal government allocated appropriate funds for the programs enhancement. In my foreign travels I observed that mentally ill people in other countries where handled much better when the local communities had the flexibility to handle issues related to mental health on an individual basis rather then having restrictive and cumbersome administrative federal meddling. This is the only hard line conservative approach to this discussion I can conceive of and the popular “conservative” opinion on this issue appears to be little more than angry hand waving. To me this seems like the best way to have a truly compassionate and effective mental health care system. Hope it is at least food for thought. How does this relate to Feminism? 😉

  60. Most of us “crazies” only ever kill ourselves, and we do so in staggering numbers. Amazing how that doesn’t make news.

    Ha, ironically enough, it doesn’t make news so as not to inspire “copycats”. …and yet all I saw was Seung Hui Cho for a week. Go figure.

  61. I am on a listserver that is mainly parents of special needs children from Fairfax County Public Schools in Virginia (where Cho went to school). These parents are extremely concerned that a child with such major problems as Cho slipped through the cracks. You have to realize that Fairfax County is a very wealthy area. The usual “we don’t have the funding” argument doesn’t apply here as it might in other school districts. These parents have been affected by this not only in that they recognize that their school system (the one servicing their children now) totally missed the boat with Cho, but also in that 5 young people who hail from their area were killed in the attack at VT. Here are a couple of comments from the list serve:

    This is a county-wide school division that now has the unique distinction of having 2 young non-special ed graduates who have killed police officers at Sully and massacered 32 innocent people at Va Tech??? This is within less than one year.

    … and in response …

    This is an excellent point. Here are some questions FCPS needs to answer about Cho

    1. Did he have an IEP? if not then why not?
    2. Was he ever referred to special education to determine eligibility either for IEP, 504, ec.
    3. Then, follow up on answers to 1 and 2.
    4. What about counseling? What about outreach to parents to explain the situation?
    5. How was this child just passed on year after year after year?

    Cho’s situation proves YET AGAIN that kids fall through the cracks if parents are not on top of things. Didn’t ANY teacher think to ask WHY this child NEVER SPOKE? I read that his MS or HS music teacher basically yelled at him for not holding up his head when he played his instrument. Weren’t there ANY teachers even just CURIOUS as to why this child was SO DIFFERENT? Why is it just always a knee jerk assumption that the kid is bad or weird? If children behave atypically then we need to figure out why, then proceed accordingly.

    By the time he’s in college, it’s almost as though it is too late. There appears to have been some effort at that juncture to reach out to this kid by certain professors/instructors.

    Couldn’t have said it better myself. What everyone needs to understand is that it is not unusual for kids like Cho to fall through the cracks, despite the fact that school districts are obligated to identify and provide appropriate services to children that need special education or counseling services.

  62. I was treated in a teaching hospital, which meant young male med students interviewing me then sneakily asking me where to score hash (I was 16, this was for depression and suicide attempt) .
    I’m really lucky compared to the posters upthread, but the guy assigned to counsel me spoke so little English that all he could do was ask ” Are you happy ?” and ” Are you sad ?” Later I got transfered to a guy who never said one word in 10 sessions. Not one word.
    In the group sessions there was a woman who had snapped after living in a tiny trailer with a huge number of people depending on her and a host of other problems. This was the therapy: the doctor asked her, “Is there anything you do really well?” When she said she baked good brownies the doctor had her repeat “I, Bertha, bake really good brownies”, and the doctor recommended she repeat that to herself when she felt down.
    I willed with a voodoo intensity for the doctor to be stripped of his education and job and money, forced to live with an abusive trailer-mate and encouraged to cheer himself with his baking abilities.

  63. Holy cow, alicepaul, in post #56 — you must be one strong mofo, if you’re still standing after all that abuse.

    I realize I’m joining the conversation very late, but I just think the hideousness of your experience should be acknowledged. Damn.

    You should probably get some kind of medal for surviving.

  64. A few years ago, I wrote a research paper on the correlation of mental illness and homelessness in the SF Bay Area.

    What I learned from my research was that the national deinstitutionalization program began in the 1960s (I always thought it began with Reagan too).

    At the time, the idea was that the large number of persons institutionalized would be categorized – those with severe illness who were a danger to others would remain institutionalized and others with less severe illnesses would be brought back into their local communities and served at community health centers.

    Sounds good, right? The problem began when the Government de-institutionalized thousands without creating the necessary community health centers – there was simply no place to go for mental health services.

    The sad thing is that over 35 years later – the problem persists.

    Jill, thanks for this post. The mental illness stigma is persistent and sad. Persons with mental illness range from people with mild conditions (anxiety disorders, depression) who are lawyers, teachers, businesspersons, etc. & high functioning to people with severe illnesses (schizophrenia, bipolar disorder) who need more intense treatment. This diverse population cannot be summed up & prescribed one policy (ie. “lock them up”) as they cannot be treated by a single medical prescription.

    As a highly functioning person who is treated for a mental illness & who is no danger to herself or others, I would like to say thanks.

  65. Richard,

    That’s nice that private mental health is good. You know what will be really nice? When most people can afford it. God knows when I’m off my parent’s insurance that I will be fucked left, right, and center, seeing that I am unable to work due to my condition.

    Mind you, the hospital I went to WAS a private hospital. And it’s not like I went way back when. I was there two years ago. I mean Jesus Christ.

    Do I think seeking mental health care is worthless? Fuck no I don’t. I go to therapy and have a fantastic therapist. And she isn’t from a private practice, either. I’ve seen people make progress. I’ve seen myself go on meds that… helped (although God knows if I forget to take them for 24-72 hours, I become literally homicidal as a result from withdrawal, but whatever). And all that nice fluffy shit that I have to say as disclaimer so that people don’t read this post and go ‘ZOMG I MAY AS WELL NEVER TRY.’ No, really, please try. If you have the right treatment, it really, really helps.

    But we are talking about people who are thrown into state psychiatric facilities, not private ones, after telling another person that they’re suicidal, and how kicking out someone from college into one of these probably won’t make shit better seeing that the mental health system is already BULLSHIT. What I would like to see? That it isn’t shitty anymore so that we CAN put people in there and not worry about them getting worse as a result.

  66. I have serious concerns about how universities accomodate the mentally ill. My best friend in college (a state school in VA) had bipolar disorder. She was taking medication for it and desperately wanted to study abroad in Africa. She was denied the opportunity because the school considered her disorder to be a liability. About a month after she was denied this dream of hers, she attempted suicide. I was encouraged not to tell the school about her suicide attempt or speak to a counselor about how it was affecting me because if they found out, she would be kicked out of school and they would very likely have not let her back in… again, the school considered the liability to be too great a risk. Much of this is because my university has a reputation for high suicide rates. As a means of keeping this statistic low, students who are known to be mentally ill are encouraged to take academic leave if their conditions were bad. But once they leave, they have to jump through a ridiculous number of hoops in order to return. It took my friend two years before she was allowed to come back and finish her degree, and the school never knew about the suicide attempt.

    To the point: University students with mental disorders often aren’t being cared for; they are being discriminated against. And after the VA Tech shootings, I believe this discrimination will only increase.

    It doesn’t have to be this way; at James Madison University (also in VA), they have Mental Health Awareness Week, to de-stigmatize mental illness and teach students how to care for themselves. If you are affiliated with a university, please encourage your school to provide more care for students with mental disorders rather than increasing their stigma by deeming them too much of a liability to be worth educating.

  67. Just wanted to give some background on deinstitutionalization:

    In 1963, Congress passed the “Community Mental Health Centers Construction Act,” which called for the development and funding of community-based services (U.S. Department of Health, Education and Welfare, 1978). This landmark legislation was designed to help reduce the state institutionalized populations by 50%. Thus, thousands of people diagnosed with mental illness were forced onto the street. Because the outflow of patients was so great, the state and mental health professionals were not at all prepared for its effects. The community-based service programs planned were not adequate to deal with the numbers and the severity of the problems in the community (Dear & Wolch, 1987).

  68. May I suggest some milk and sugar with that straw?

    After puzzling over this a bit, my best guess is that it’s a cereal reference. Great. Now we don’t just have the Strawfeminist, but also the Frosted MiniWheat- and Weeabix- feminists.

  69. It seems people did everything they could. You honor the dead by doing right by the living. Asian Americans flat out deny the existence of mental illness. My parents say depressed people and people who commit suicide are “weak.” Nothing more. They are first generation meaning they came over in their teens and twenties. If we really want to prevent this from happening again, Asian Americans must reexamine how they look at mental illnesses.

  70. At the end of the CNN interview with the two roommates, they said he didn’t continue counseling because he wanted to be a good son and not worry his parents. I cannot tell you how common this sentiment is in the Asian American community.

  71. I don’t know where the VRWC got the idea that the ACLU was what emptied the mental hospitals.

    More or less, it was the failure of the several states to take up the slack of community care for the thousands of patients released as psychotropic drugs became available and the Feds decided they could defund psych hospitals.

  72. reading all this reminds me/surprises me how lucky I was in having a fantastic experience with sliding-scale public mental health care. (my near-hick area has not one but two nationally recognized hospital systems, fortunately). of course, i was outpatient all the way and have a ‘minor’ disorder, but still, damn. and if we locked up the crazies, i’d be 3 times over by now – once for the day i had a violently depressive episode, was suicidal for about 2 hours, and went to the doctor just in case it didn’t pass, once for the initial diagnosis where they thought i was schizoaffective (extreme stress + damage from overwork while having undiagnosed mono for 5 months + undiagnosed ADD = delusions, who knew?), and once for my actual diagnosis.

    destigmatizing mental illness is probably the one issue i care about that i actually do anything about in my normal life – I’m white, upper-middle-class, and a high achiever type (and ADD isn’t ‘scary’), a perfect poster child, so I make a point of not hiding it, talking about it as a normal part of my life, etc. Sometimes I feel like I’m the MI version of the ‘good negro’ – over-achieving, nonthreatening, ‘normal’ looking – but I have to hope that every little bit helps.
    The more people are willing to talk about it, the better it gets. I’m really lucky in that I can be fully ‘out’ (first race comparisons, now GLBT comparisons – smack me if I try to say I’m Rosa Parks, ‘kay?) at work – it’s handy when the boss can give you a heads-up on the side effects of your new meds because he takes them too – and talking about it openly around the office really made me feel like I can help make a dent in the silence, y’know? first time I’ve felt like who I am was actually good for something, all on its own.

    anyway, good care is crucial. voluntary commitments in good facilities broke the cycle of hurt for a bipolar former housemate and saved my brother from suicide in an abusive relationship. but until anyone who needs it can get good care without it ‘marking’ them as bad, people are just gonna keep dyin’.

  73. alicepaul and prefer not to say: conditions vary state by state.

    Here in California we have patient advocates and strict guidelines on the use of force, seclusion, etc. You have to be shown that you cannot make a reasoned decision for yourself before you can be forced to take meds. You can only be involuntarily committed if you are shown to be a danger to yourself or others and then for not more than 30 days if it cannot be shown that you are mentally incapcitated. Lobotomies may only be conducted if outside experts agree that there is no other course of treatment and that means that the practice has not been conducted for years.

    There are movements afoot to bring these regulations to all states. Support them.

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