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Abortion Bans are Personal

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Any day now, the Supreme Court will determine whether women, in consultation with their families and doctors, should make personal reproductive-health decisions – or whether politicians should make our medical and moral decisions for us.

I care a lot about what the Supreme Court has to say about President Bush’s Federal Abortion Ban. The same day I decided to terminate my pregnancy, lawmakers gathered in Washington, DC to discuss the ban, which could outlaw abortion as early as 12 weeks and has no exception for a woman’s health.

That’s why NARAL Pro-Choice America asked me to share my story with you. It’s not a story I ever thought I’d share with thousands of strangers, because frankly, it’s nobody’s business. But now, of course, it is.

When I was 18 weeks pregnant at my doctor’s office in Lexington, Massachusetts, I remember eagerly anticipating the ultrasound that would tell my husband and me whether our baby was a boy or a girl. We were so excited, oohing and aahing like the giddy, expectant parents that we were.

The technician, however, was quiet, and I started to panic. We learned that the ultrasound indicated that the fetus had an open neural-tube defect, meaning that the spinal column had not closed properly. We had to go to Boston immediately, where a new, high-tech machine could tell us more.

In Boston, the doctor spoke using words no pregnant woman wants to hear – clinical terms like hydrocephalus and spina bifida. The spine, she said, had not closed properly, and because of the location of the opening, it was as bad as it could get.

What the doctors knew was awful: the baby would be paralyzed and incontinent, its brain smushed against the base of the skull and the cranium full of fluid. What they didn’t know was devastating: would the baby live at all, and if so, with what sort of mental and developmental defects? Countless surgeries would be required if the baby did live, and none of them could repair the damage.

It sounds naive now, but I never considered pregnancy a gamble. Sitting in the doctor’s windowless office, I tried to read between the lines of complicated medical jargon, searching for answers that weren’t there. But I already knew what I had to do. Even if our baby had a remote chance of surviving, it was not a life we would choose for our child.

I asked over and over, “Are we doing the right thing?” Our family – even my Catholic father and Republican father-in-law, neither of whom was ever pro-choice – assured us that we were. Politics suddenly became personal – their daughter’s heartbreak, their son’s pain, their grandchild’s suffering – and that changed everything.

If President Bush’s Federal Abortion Ban had been in force on that day, my husband and I wouldn’t have had this option.

It’s not always easy to see how the Federal Abortion Ban will affect our lives, so I am asking you to share my story with your family, friends, and co-workers. Please let them see the human side of this story.

The ban on so-called “partial-birth abortion” has already been signed into law. It’s just a matter of how the Court rules, and whether they’ll uphold this — a ban which does not actually outlaw late-term abortions, but rather outlaws a loosely-defined procedure and compromises women’s health. Cross your fingers that they declare the law invalid.


181 thoughts on Abortion Bans are Personal

  1. I read this when it was recently re-posted on MSN and I cried sooo much. =(

    And then I began stockpiling herbs, tools, and — perhaps most importantly — information.

    If we can’t defeat the anti-choice fanatics immediately through legislation, we need to arm ourselves with information and a population full of women who are willing and able to provide abortions in the time between when it becomes illegal and unavailable, and when we can make it legal and safe again.

    I am not willing to accept the alternative.
    (Hello Handmaid’s Tale…)

  2. I completely agree about the `partial birth’ abortion ban. It doesn’t actually prevent any late-term abortions, just restricts one of the safest ways of performing them, the implication being presumably that a woman who has an abortion doesn’t deserve to be safe. That confirms for me that it is nothing to do with saving babies lives and all about punishing women.

    It seems incredible that such a law could even be taken seriously. Surely everyone should recieve the safest and most appropriate treatment available for their condition, regardless of what you think about their morals and their personal life. That would be professional behaviour on behalf of the doctors involved, and they should be allowed to do their job properly. The same applies to this abortion ban. It should be up to the woman to decide whether she wants an abortion or not, and up to the medical profession to decide which procedures are most appropriate to offer. Politics should have nothing to do with it.

  3. […] we need to arm ourselves with information and a population full of women who are willing and able to provide abortions in the time between when it becomes illegal and unavailable,[…]

    Didn’t that used to be the job of midwives, before the whole practice of midwifery became overshadowed by *modern medicine during the nineteenth-century? (*male physicians, who apparently knew more about pregnancy and childbirth than women) But definitely women and girls today need to become more intimate with accurate knowledge concerning their own bodies, and especially their reproductive-sexual system. None of that “abstinence-only education,” puritanical, “purity-ball,” “the bodies of wimminfolk are tools of the Devil” bullshit propaganda, that’s becoming ever so popular with the religious-rightwing of this country. And perhaps a mandatory reading of The Handmaid’s Tale for all young women.

  4. I imagine it was not a joke but a truth. The baby is the one being punished by you poor afflicted women. You poor things, how could that baby invade your personal, private business. I will obviously get what it deserves. I has a constitutional right to a safe and healthy execution.

  5. The first three posts on Feministe: malformed fetuses, dead Mexican women, the Holocaust.

    Way to make me cry on a Monday morning. Damn right it’s personal; we have got to get these pieces of slime out of office before they do any more permanent damage to basic human rights.

  6. Abortion should be a woman’s choice and no one elses. Maybe if President Bush was a woman he would feel differently about the type of law he is trying to get enforced. By making abortions unsafe for women, there is nothing about saving babies lives, but more so about punishing the mother’s for making a choice that some dont agree with.

  7. Jess – to be fair, just because someone is a woman doesn’t mean that she’s pro-choice or has better ideas about abortion than a man. The infamous Rep. Jean Schmidt used to be an antiabortion activist until she went to Congress. There was a study recently that of any gender or opinion on the abortion issue, Pro-life women are the most active. Considering that women are the ones who suffer from antiabortion laws, it certainly does seem odd to me.

  8. I expect kneejerk anti-choice trolls to be illiterate, but sweet jesus Greg. You manage to take a story about a woman with a wanted pregnancy and fatally malformed fetus and use it to say that women are selfish whores. Congrats.

  9. Since it seems government is all about “common sense restrictions” on many things… such as guns. Let me ask you this… what would you think of “common sense restrictions” that would still allow for the health/life of the mother, incest, rape and situations where the child is not viable or would have fatal defects but restrict it from being another form of birth control?

    At some point, the pro-life front is going to get some kind of restrictions applied… it’s just a matter of time.

  10. I wish the next time Greg has sex God implants a dead fetus into his body, and he won’t be able to remove it with a court order. The only problem is he probably doesn’t get laid in the first place.

  11. Now now, one’s value as one’s fuckability is not a feminist-approved personal attack. 😛

    The PC way to say it is “Sir, I would not enjoy being in your company, especially not in an intimate manner, because I am turned on by sensitive, intelligent individuals, and you, sir, are not one of them.”

    …Or you could just say “He’s angry cause his dick is small.”

    But, y’know, The Cause.

  12. “but restrict it from being another form of birth control?”

    New rule!

    No medical help, nor pain-killers, for the kidney stones of pro-life men.

  13. In cases of severe fetal abnormality, women chose “partial birth abortion” (aka intact dilation & extraction) in order to have a mostly intact baby they can say goodbye to. They’re wanted pregnancies that went horribly wrong. The “partial birth” procedure ends up being the least traumatic solution for everyone, since the other options would be cesaerian, induced labor, or dismembering the fetus.

    Even though fetal abnormality is a small proportion of total abortions, it’s really, really sad and shocking that Congress would take this option away from grieving families.

  14. Bethynyc Actually my wife and I adopted one special needs child. She needed a family, not an execution.
    Tp hysterical women, So now it is God’s fault that women get pregnant? Luckily for me, I don’t have to worry about a fetus invading my body. You do. So deal with it. Don’t sit around in your women only pity party. Be intellectually honest enough to admit that sex makes babies, and chemical birth control in unhealthy and std are rampant. If women would get together and abstain from premarital sex, the guys would have no choice but to wait. Wow i solved the whole problem in one paragraph.

  15. Mandolin,

    Deal, We won’t take pain-killers if you don’t get abortions.

    If you read my response before this one you can really get us bad. You won’t need abortions.
    Have fun with that.

  16. If women would get together and abstain from premarital sex, the guys would have no choice but to wait.

    Or, we could all become lesbians like MN in the other thread suggested.

    Man, you two trolls should really get together.

  17. Mandolin, I thought this site was supposed to be about discussing issues… guess not.

    For your information, I am pro-choice but I also don’t believe that abortion should be used as a form of birth control because 2 people went out and had unprotected sex and now want out of the consequences. It’s a matter of taking responsibility for your actions instead of blaming somebody else or killing a baby.

    I don’t have a problem with abortions for health/life of the mother, incest, rape or situations like the ones mentioned. What I do have a problem with is women and men out having sex and not taking the precautions to prevent pregnancy. Is it 100% effective? No, but it would cut down on the abortion rate quite a bit and the pro-lifers wouldn’t have nearly as much to whine about.

  18. “If women would get together and abstain from premarital sex, the guys would have no choice but to wait. ”

    If fuys got together and abstained from premarital sex, then women would have no reason to have abortions! Evangelize to the men instead of the women, and maybe I’ll believe you’re not a misogynist fuckwit.

    Oh, but you are.

    Also: MARRIED WOMEN NEED ABORTIONS, TOO.

    & please, please, go have sex with your wife now. I weep to think of all the poor sperm you’re executing with your inaction as we speak!

  19. “For your information, I am pro-choice but I also don’t believe that abortion should be used as a form of birth control because 2 people went out and had unprotected sex and now want out of the consequences. It’s a matter of taking responsibility for your actions instead of blaming somebody else or killing a baby.”

    Where’s the baby? I see an embryo, a zygote, or a fetus, but not a baby.

    Are you telling me that two people of your acquaintance had a baby, and then killed it? That’s illegal, you know.

  20. What about women who use birth control, but it fails? Should they have access to abortion or not?

    What about women who don’t have power in their relationships to negotiate condom use?

    What about women who cannot afford the costs of pregnancy, and for whom an additional pregnancy will mean that their existing children will not have enough food to eat?

    And, JustaGuy, where is there any other standard in American law for forcing an individual to use their body in the physical service of another? Are parents required to donate their kidneys to sick children? Are they even required to donate blood? We don’t force anyone to use their internal organs to sustain the life of another. Except pregnant women.

  21. MARRIED WOMEN NEED ABORTIONS, TOO.

    Yes, thank you. As a married woman, it cracks me up when these people think a marriage certificate creates some sort of magic force field that repels situations where contraception and/or abortion might be necessary.

    Because getting married means you’ll always have enough money to feed an infinite amount of children, and you’ll never have medical issues, or you’ll never be raped.

    And that’s not even touching the thought that maybe a married woman might not want to turn into a brood-mare surrounded a Duggar-esque hoarde.

  22. Yo Mandolin, Women don’t get to decide when life begins. But women do have to have the babies. If this was a man’s abortion discussion room I would be telling them very much the same thing. ” Women are a special and need to be treat with dignity and respect and sex is for marriage” But this is a women’s discussion so I defer to my original argument. I am still waiting for a good argument from you though.

  23. Jill,

    1. This falls under “you play, you pay” for both the mother and the father… so No.

    2. Isn’t this part of what feminism is about? Empowering women to make their own decisions and determine their own actions? If a woman is in a relationship where she cannot negotiate condom use, she needs to get out. If she’s being forced to have sex without a condom, couldn’t this be considered rape?

    3. So abortion should be allowed for economic reasons? Wouldn’t birth control be cheaper?

    4. There is no standard of law that I’m aware of. No. No. Biology made women support another being with their body not law, not men. As I’m trying to discuss, unlike others, is that there are options before the pregnancy happens.

    Mandolin, zygote, embryo, fetus… all will MOST LIKELY, grown into a baby. So, at what point to you consider too late for an abortion? 20 weeks? 30 week? 21 years? OK.. the last one is a joke but at some point, somebody has to determine, legally, when life begins. Is it at birth or at the point of viability?

  24. What a bunch of whiners. You come up with so many lame excuses for brutal abortions. I have no excuses for rape or incest, Put the guy in jail for life I don’t care, castrate them.
    But don’t kill a defenseless baby. I am so sorry for you and the plight of being the child bearors. Deal with it.

  25. I am pro-choice but I also don’t believe that abortion should be used as a form of birth control because 2 people went out and had unprotected sex and now want out of the consequences.

    JustaGuy – I think that all feminists whole heartedly agree with you that people should be more responsible about birth control in order to prevent the need for abortions. That’s why we’re in favor of comprehensive sex ed and access to affordable birth control, and that’s also why we’re in favor of empowering girls and women to take control over all aspects of their lives (sexual, reproductive, and otherwise) so they can make wise, healthy decisions about sex.

    What I don’t get about your comment is the idea that people who are irresponsible about birth control should be punished with having a baby. Since you’re pro-choice, you don’t believe that the fetus has an independent right to life. So with that as a given, why would you think the best answer to unintended pregnancy between people is to make them have a baby they don’t want and aren’t ready for? How does that make the world a better place?

  26. Isn’t this part of what feminism is about? Empowering women to make their own decisions and determine their own actions? If a woman is in a relationship where she cannot negotiate condom use, she needs to get out. If she’s being forced to have sex without a condom, couldn’t this be considered rape?

    If that’s what you think feminism is about, you need to do some reading. It’s not as simple as “she needs to get out.” Of course she does. But she might not think that’s a possibility, especially if she’s economically dependent on him and/or if they have children together.

    So abortion should be allowed for economic reasons? Wouldn’t birth control be cheaper?

    Well, yes, but you’d have to take that up with the “pro-life” people who have made birth control difficult to access for low-income and uninsured women.

    There is no standard of law that I’m aware of. No. No. Biology made women support another being with their body not law, not men. As I’m trying to discuss, unlike others, is that there are options before the pregnancy happens.

    And there are options after pregnancy happens. Why shouldn’t women be able to take advantage of those?

    Medical advancements have made certain aspects of biology non-determinative. After all, some people naturally get cancer, but we use modern medicine to attack it. Why can’t we use modern medicine to end unwanted pregnancies?

    Further, making a choice that someone deems “bad” (or “you play you pay”) isn’t a reason to deny medical care — or even voluntary medical procedures — in any other case. If I drive, I know there’s a chance I’ll eventually get into an accident. But I played, so should I pay? Should medics not treat me if I wrap my car around a tree? What about if I have facial lacerations or a broken nose — should I be legally disallowed from getting medically unnecessary plastic surgery? Am I “selfish” if I do so? Should I just “accept the consequences of my actions”?

  27. “Deal, We won’t take pain-killers if you don’t get abortions.”

    Sorry, wasn’t offering a deal, was offering a new rule. Rule attaches to position (pro-life), not attempt to foist position on others.

    I do hope you’re too busy having sex with your wife to read this. Because as long as potential for human life = human life, I know someone who’s on the verge of being a mass murderer.

  28. Greg & Justaguy –

    Did you even read the post? A married woman experienced a very wanted pregnancy that turned out to be doomed because of catastrophic complications. Carrying the pregnancy to term would have resulted in a baby that was either (most likely) dead or condemned to a brief lifetime of hellish pain. She, her husband, and everyone around her – including people who are philosophically anti-abortion – agreed that ending the pregnancy was the best choice. The procedure banned by the Federal Abortion Ban was not the only way for her to do so, but it was the safest.

    Where does all this fit into paradigm of hardhearted sluts who need to “face the consequences of their actions”?

    Be honest. Whenever you find a conversation about abortion, you just post a standard boilerplate, don’t you?

  29. Greg – Abortion is definitely a kind of birth control of last resort, but it is much more costly (financially, emotionally, physically) than other kinds of birth control.

  30. Actually I started off responding to post #5 and the “bad joke”

    I don’t have words to describe how I feel about the original post. Sorrow might be the best attempt. I do not want that example to be put aside, but brought to the forefront of the argument. It is extremely rare and it should never be used as an excuse for other abortions. Using to excuse unwanted babies does her equal injustice as if we didn’t grieve with her and her husband.

  31. “Women don’t get to decide when life begins.”

    Cuz that’s a man’s job.

    “But women do have to have the babies.”

    No, actually, we don’t. Because we can have abortions.

    “If this was a man’s abortion discussion room I would be telling them very much the same thing.”

    This is actually a gender neutral discussion “room.” Feministe reflects a position, not a gender.

    ”Women are a special and need to be treat with dignity and respect and sex is for marriage”

    Oh! I see what the problem is now. Let me set you straight:

    Women are part of the normal menu of options. You don’t have to wait until they read you the specials; you can order them right off.

    “But this is a women’s discussion so I defer to my original argument. I am still waiting for a good argument from you though.”

    See, if I respected you in the least, I might give you one. But you’re a jerk who showed up on a feminist blog to lecture the little ladies on keeping their legs closed. Therefore, you deserve taunting.

  32. Nausicaa, thanks for actually responding intelligently… it’s always good to have in an actual discussion as opposed to a flame war.

    I agree that abstinance-only teaching is stupid. Only a moron, W, would think that just because the government preaches abstinance-only, all kids will follow that rule. We all know that kids, young adults, adults are going to have sex and should be armed with good knowledge about birth control and disease prevention.

    As for your second paragraph… let me respond by telling you about something that happened in my family. My cousin became sexaully active at a young age, 14, and didn’t use birth control of any kind… obviously, neither did the boy. She ended up getting pregnant and had 2 choices. She could have the baby and put it up for adoption OR she could have an abortion. The family as a whole supported her either way. Now, she chose to have it and worked with the adoption agency to put the child with a good family. She’s still in contact and her son has a wonderful life with a loving family.

    There are a lot of families out there that would love to adopt. The problem arises when, after adoption, the biological mother or father change their minds and want the child back. This doesn’t happen as much as some may believe but it does happen and it gives adoption a bad rap.

    To answer your last question… how does destroying a fetus make the world a better place? Who knows what future that person could have had. I’d rather see the children born and adopted rather than aborted. It’s a personal opinion in this particular instance. It is possible to be pro-choice but hate to see it done.

  33. “Using to excuse unwanted babies does her equal injustice as if we didn’t grieve with her and her husband.”

    Funny how you get to decide what does her injustice, rather than listening to her words. She says that she believes abortion is a personal decision. She says that’s what does her justice.

    Your misogyny is showing.

  34. As I have always felt, pro-choicers will almost always admit that it is a last choice or we would like to see their numbers go down. But if it is just a lump of skin, then who cares?

  35. Dude, this was a married woman with a wanted pregnancy. Premarital sex has nothing to do with this.

    Also, guys DO have a choice besides waiting when a woman says no. The not-decent ones, at least.

  36. You are not a qualified taunter, just a very unhappy person. This might be a femeniste room and gender free, which I doubt, but I will grant you that.

    Guys, What is your role in this? Lets discuss it. Hello are you there? Sorry not too many guys here.

    And by the way, men don’t get to decide when life begins and neither to women. No one gets to decide when it begins, It begins when it begins. We need to discover when that is, together.

  37. JustaGuy — The problem is that the possibility of adoption is a red herring. Sure, the few white babies available now get adopted fairly easily in this country. But if all the millions of yearly unintended pregnancies were put up for adoption instead of abortion, then we’d be back to the days of dickensenian orphanages. The much greater good for the greater number is to prevent pregnancies in the first place and to allow abortion to those who want it.

    (I also believe that an early fetus has no rights unless the mother wants it to become a baby, but that’s another argument.)

  38. Seraph, I don’t think I ever said the original post was a bad choice for abortion. I think it was totally warranted in this case and I don’t think I ever mentioned that married women never need abortions.

    This thread changed from a discussion of the original post to a general abortion discussion in post #9 by Jess.

    Jill, as for doing more reading on what feminism is… that’s why I’m here. I’m trying to find out.

    The best way to find out what people think is to ask questions… even slanted or pointed questions.

  39. Well this has been fun but I seem to be making too much sense and my posts aren’t making it through the screening process.
    Keep those opens minds going.

  40. all i could think about when reading ur post, justaguy, is “ok, that worked good for HER”. what about people in any other situation? women that dont have the support of there family’s? or that cant afford being pregnant? not everyones situation is the same.

    “Who knows what future that person could have had.”

    that always boils me. what about the pregnant woman? what kind of future could SHE have if she wasnt pregnant? that sentence shows total disregard for women as anything but baby machines. cuz you know, that fetus could be a boy!

  41. Oh, Justaguy…the adoption option.

    I’m glad your 14 year old cousin was in a situation where she had a supportive family. Honestly, being 14 she was probably in a better situation than an adult woman. Let me clarify.

    I get so sick of men telling women, “oh, just carry the baby to term and get an adoption!” As if being pregnant were a fucking breeze. When I was pregnant I vomited every single day. Until my throat bled and my teeth rotted. Around my fourth month the joint in the front of my pelvis (which previously I didn’t even know existed) began to unknit. My hip joints would no longer stay in their sockets. I had to walk with a cane and even then it was excruciating. Towards the end I couldn’t even walk across the room.

    Needless to say I couldn’t work. If your 14 year old cousin had these symptoms, I’m sure her family would have taken care of and provided for her. Unfortunately, as an adult woman with student loans and credit card debt and a corporate whore McJob without paid maternity leave, well…let’s just say I nearly had some stuff repo’d. I can’t imagine what would have happened to us if I or my family were really poor.

    So, if I got pregnant again I would definitely have an abortion. I’m not financially able to not work for several months again. (Let alone emotionally willing to go through that.)

  42. I hear a lot of debate about “when life begins” and so on, as though that should be the standard for determining at what point abortion shouldn’t be an option. But that’s a diversion, I think. I believe life begins at conception. But it isn’t a matter of what’s alive and what isn’t. Rather, it’s a matter of who has human rights and who doesn’t.

    I do, it doesn’t.

    And I’d like to add that exceptions for rape and incest are insulting and demeaning to ALL women. Why would a rape victim be entitled to more human rights than another woman? Why should “bad” girls be “punished” with forced delivery, while victims are granted a commutation of their sentenced pregnancy? Ugh.

  43. ” it’s always good to have in an actual discussion as opposed to a flame war.”

    You do realize that you showed up at a feminist blog, in response to a post about partial birth abortion ban, to ask us how we would write a clause to limit reproductive freedom based on a bit of right wing rhetorical flourish?

    It seems to me from your posts that you’re very young, so maybe you don’t realize why that’s insulting. The basic issue is that when you start with flawed premises (1: that there’s something wrong with women choosing when they have abortions & why, and 2: that feminists should support forcing women not to choose when they have abortions and why), you end up with false or irrelevant conclusions (the revision of the law that you wanted us to compose).

  44. JustaGuy – Another thing — if I had a 14 year old sister or daughter who got pregnant, I would absolutely support her having the option of an abortion. She’s just a kid herself, and she should not be made to go through the emotional and physical upheaval of childbirth. Her health (mental and otherwise) takes precedent over the fetus. Very young girls have a strong moral claim on abortion.

  45. I will be a good boy and listen to your point of view.
    But if I don’t agree does that make me a misogynist.

  46. Whoops, didn’t refresh before posting and missed a lot of the discussion since Greg’s #19 & 20

    And with that, I’ll stop feeding the largely-illucid troll that feels the need to dispense advice ” tp hysterical women”.

    Justaguy, I’m going to go out on a limb and presume you’re arguing in good faith. Let me tell you my story. I was adopted at birth, 22 years ago. My birth mother was 18 and unmarried, while my birth father was 40 with a wife and kid. I’ve done fairly well for myself in this life. I love the parents that raised me, I’m a National Merit Scholar enrolled at a good university, I have good friends and a good future. Life has overall been pretty damn good compared with most of humanity.

    And yet, if I met that 18-year-old, I could not bring myself to ask her to give up 9 months of her life, to face friends and family and the gossip mill, to risk all the major and potentially life-threatening health complications of pregnancy, to give up the child she labored to bear, to think of me every mother’s day and every birthday, just for my sake… that’s too much to demand of anyone.

    And frankly, I wouldn’t know any better anyway.

  47. Mandolin, I’m not young. The reason I’m here is to find out if feminism is the radical “romance is nothing but rape with meaningful looks” kind of feminism or if it’s truely about equality.

    I decided to join in on a discussion about abortion and I’m sorry you took offense. I will tell you that I’m definately not right-wing… I tend to lean fairly far left on most things.

    To get to the original intent of the post… I don’t think the partial-birth abortion should be outlawed if it’s the safest method available. This turned into a general discussion in post #9 and continued to downgrade from there.

    But surely you can agree, from a general abortion standpoint, that the better solution to abortion would be not to get pregnant when you’re not ready. For all other situations, such as the one in the original post, abortion should be legal and available.

  48. Greg, you need to chill. We get a ton of spam, and so lots of common words go into the moderation queue. This blog is not my full-time job, and I do not have time to clear the queue every 10 seconds. Many of my posts go into moderation too, and so do the posts of many regular commenters. That’s just how it works, so quit whining and be a little patient.

  49. Like that post I just wrote? It went into moderation. Perhaps I’m censoring myself because “I seem to be making too much sense”?

  50. And, JustaGuy, where is there any other standard in American law for forcing an individual to use their body in the physical service of another? Are parents required to donate their kidneys to sick children? Are they even required to donate blood? We don’t force anyone to use their internal organs to sustain the life of another. Except pregnant women.

    And, to add to Jill’s point, we don’t seem particularly keen on legislating mandatory organ donation either, even though that could theoretically save lives; that is, we seem to respect the bodily autonomy and wishes of the dead – who aren’t even using their organs anymore – more than we do the bodily autonomy of women.

  51. But surely you can agree, from a general abortion standpoint, that the better solution to abortion would be not to get pregnant when you’re not ready.

    Unfortunately, in the real world, there really isn’t a way to not EVER get pregnant before you’re ready. So abortion has to be an option. If you take away legal abortion, women will still require it, and then they die from unsafe septic back-alley abortions. Which would you prefer to happen?

    Because those are your choices. Terminated pregnancies, or dead women.

  52. The Stranger… thanks for your story. It shows that good things do come from adoption. I do understand your point of view, which is important, but we do disagree on a couple of things and that’s OK too. If everybody agreed life would be pretty boring.

    I will tell you that my cousin’s 2 abortions did have consequences that did not show up until later in life. Specifically, when she was older and had children that she kept. I’m sure she remembers the 2 that she aborted every Mother’s Day as well as the ones she didn’t.

  53. “Mandolin, I’m not young. The reason I’m here is to find out if feminism is the radical “romance is nothing but rape with meaningful looks” kind of feminism or if it’s truely about equality.”

    How long have you been reading feminist blogs?

    “To get to the original intent of the post… I don’t think the partial-birth abortion should be outlawed if it’s the safest method available.”

    Cool.

    “But surely you can agree, from a general abortion standpoint, that the better solution to abortion would be not to get pregnant when you’re not ready. For all other situations, such as the one in the original post, abortion should be legal and available.”

    No, I can’t agree. Abortion is medically invasive. From that standpoint, a different remedy is probably preferable.

    But you’re arguing that you get to decide who has been moral and who has been immoral, and then that you get to decide who gets to have abortions based on that. That’s silly, and offensive. Do you restrict medical treatment to people who’ve driven drunk?

    And even that’s a canard. Birth control fails. 14 year olds are not good at calculating risk, or may be pressured into unprotected sex by older partners, or may be suffering from ignorance or delusion.

    You can disapprove of abortion as birth control if you must, although I still think that’s weakly unethical and uncompassionate. But when you cross the line into saying that you want to make it illegal — that’s strongly unethical.

    I have no say over your medical decisions. Why do you think you have a say over mine?

  54. Vanessa, that’s not a worry in my mind because I don’t think they’ll get this or any other restrictive abortion law to stick.

    Like I said earlier, I’m here to learn. What I was probing to find out is what, if any, restrictions feminism would allow on something like this.

    Also like I said earlier, I’m pro-choice but I’d rather not see it used as birth control.

  55. Greg: As I have always felt, pro-choicers will almost always admit that it is a last choice or we would like to see their numbers go down. But if it is just a lump of skin, then who cares?

    How about because abortion is no fun, and not a single woman wants to have one. It also is a surgery, and as such does carry some degree of risk. If it could be avoided altogether, that would be wonderful. But even if every woman who was not prepared to have a baby had access to and used a 100% effective method of contraception whenever she had heterosexual intercourse, there would still be a need for abortion. Even if a woman is initially really excited to be a mom, fetal defects happen. Circumstances with her partner, family, or finances can change. She can become very ill, as Vanessa described above. There will always be a need for abortion; get over it.

    Similarly, I would also like to see the number of heart bypass surgeries go down. But I’m not about to pass a law restricting access to bypass; I want people to eat better, stop smoking, exercise more. I want to prevent heart disease, not impede access to treatment for people who already have heart disease.

  56. but restrict it from being another form of birth control? – justaguy

    Actually, the position of the religious denomination to which I belong is exactly this (in terms of what is considered moral — in terms of secular politics, my denomination tends to be leary of any abortion restriction and generally takes a “hard-line” pro-choice stand): but the question in terms of practical implementation of such a ban is “who gets to decide”: who decides whether a given abortion is allowed or not? What consistutes ending a pregnancy that is merely inconvenient and has “ordinary” detrimental effects on health vs. one whose effects are extra-ordinary?

    Other issues raised include — if, for example, you adopt the position of my religion, when a woman’s life is in danger, she must have an abortion. Do we really want to mandate that?

    Also, as others have pointed out, can our system of laws force people to have their organs utilitzed? Last I checked, we don’t even have mandatory post-mortem organ donation (you have to opt in, not even opt out, of organ donation) — OTOH, as soon as my religion established that post-mortem organ donation could be done in a manner consistent with our religious laws, it reached the conclusion that not having your organs donated post-mortem is a sin.

    Perhaps it is a matter of religious prejudice and inclination on my part, but I fail to see how one can have a coherent system of laws in which the state can forbid abortion for purposes of birth control yet not mandate at least post-mortem organ donations or abortion when a woman’s life is at risk. If a woman can be mandated to use her internal resources to preserve a life, why can’t a doctor be mandated to use her surgical training to preserve a woman’s life (i.e. by performing an abortion whether she wants it or not) or a person be mandated to make available upon his death his internal organs to save lives?

    If the state has such an interest in preserving lives, not even in our social contract, then how can it exercize it so inconsistently?

  57. Jill, as for doing more reading on what feminism is… that’s why I’m here. I’m trying to find out.

    The best way to find out what people think is to ask questions… even slanted or pointed questions

    Justaguy, you’re welcome here, I’m sure. But! Sometimes blog comments aren’t the best place to find measured discussion, especially if you start out with “pointed questions.” People will just assume you’re a troll in hiding. The web, even at its best, skews towards polemics.

    Can anyone recommend books, articles, or websites for Justaguy?

  58. I’d rather see the children born and adopted rather than aborted. It’s a personal opinion in this particular instance.

    Damned good thing your personal preferences and feelings don’t have the power of law over 51% of the population.

  59. I’m sure she remembers the 2 that she aborted every Mother’s Day as well as the ones she didn’t.

    My first pregnancy ended in miscarriage at 10 weeks. I was absolutely wrecked about it. I think about it sometimes, and it makes me sad. That doesn’t mean I think a person died. I didn’t have a funeral or bury it in a grave. (And it only intensified my pro-choice feelings.)

    Also, it’s very patronizing of you to say “I’m sure…” like that. Maybe she does, but the imperious way in which you’re phrasing it really sounds like you’re putting words in her mouth. There are plenty of women who have abortions without regret.

  60. Mandolin…

    1. I’ve been reading a couple of feminist blogs only a week or so.

    2. I haven’t said anything about moral or immoral. I have mentioned responsible and irresponsible though. But honestly, if a drunk driver kills somebody in a wreck… I’d prefer to leave them on the street to die. There’s a story behind that but I’ll not get into it now.

    But I’ll agree with you that it should be legal and available. As for uncompassionate, we all have things we are uncompassionate about.

    I think we can agree to disagree on the abortion as birth control thing though.

  61. JustaGuy,

    Your cousin made the right choice for her and was able to see the baby she carried placed in a good home.

    That doesn’t give you, her, or anyone else the right to tell a woman that another life form has the right to use her body without her consent. That doesn’t give you, your cousin, or anyone else to presume that you know what’s right for anyone else, in this matter. Likewise, if your cousin should need your kidney, some day, nobody has the right to tell you that you have to give it to her. You may choose to give it to her, but there’s nothing that says you have to even if her life is in danger.

    When you get pregnant, whether by accident or by design, then you will have the right to decide what to do about the situation in which you find yourself.

    Oh, wait. It’ll never happen to you, will it?

  62. Vanessa, sorry for the “I’m sure” part. It was meant to say that I know from talking to her that she remembers. I wasn’t trying to patronize you. I probably could have phrased it differently.

  63. “I think we can agree to disagree on the abortion as birth control thing though. ”

    Only if you’re saying that abortion should be legal and available in those circumstances.

    If so, then yeah.

    “I’ve been reading a couple of feminist blogs only a week or so.”

    Okay. I hope you keep reading.

  64. Nausicaa, I’m looking at this blog as well as happyfeminist, ifeminist and a couple of others. Any additional sites would be welcome.

  65. Mandolin, yes, legally it should be available and I believe it will continue to be no matter what people’s personal beliefs are.

    And, yes, I’ll keep reading.

  66. the question in terms of practical implementation of such a ban is “who gets to decide”: who decides whether a given abortion is allowed or not? What consistutes ending a pregnancy that is merely inconvenient and has “ordinary” detrimental effects on health vs. one whose effects are extra-ordinary?

    Good point. I’ve also wondered about this with rape exceptions. Who gets to decide she was raped? Does she have to wait for charges to be brought? For the rapist to be found guilty? What if the trial lasts longer than 9 months? Or would it just be a matter of going to the doctor and saying “Oh, yeah, I was *totally* raped”? Then what about poor women who don’t have a doctor?

  67. As another legal principle parents are given a great deal of latitude in how their children are raised and how their children’s medical decisions are made. Children do not have the right to refuse to live where their parents choose or worship as their parents choose or get vaccines if their parents refuse them. The unborn have exactly the rights conferred on them by the person carrying them, their parent, their mother.

    You really want a culture of life? It has to be a culture, not a legal scheme. You have to change how individual women view their unborn. The State cannot enforce greater rights for the unborn than you have given to born children. If you empower the State to intervene when they are in utero then you will empower the State to limit the rights of parents to make decisions for their children according to their own conscience after those children are born.

    Birth may not satisfy you for a point when life begins but it can be the only reasonable point at which citizenship begins.

  68. Here’s an introductory blog: Feminism 101.

    Of course, even the responsible can run into trouble. Condom used, it breaks. Ovulation occurs despite the pill or ring or what-have-you. And that’s not even counting rape/incest/abuse/etc. Really, there’s no way to legislate any abortion restrictions that doesn’t contribute to women’s suffering in some degree.

  69. JustAGuy,

    You won’t see it used as birth control because RU486 has nasty, nasty side-effects, it’s expensive, surgery fucking blows, etc etc

  70. Loralei… what’s wrong with ifeminist? Just out of curiosity.

    As for using abortion as birth control… if it’s an unplanned or unwanted pregnancy and isn’t for specific medical reasons… wouldn’t that qualify as birth control?

  71. Here’s a radical idea: even IF abortion is murder, some types of murder are okay! Gosh. Murder is killing another person, right? So the death penalty? War? Euthenasia? Self-defense? All murder.

  72. I am still waiting for a good argument from you though.

    She gave you plenty of good arguments, you just happen not to like them or refuse to think of them as viable arguments probably because you are what is known as a troll therefore no matter what argument is offered to you it won’t be good enough. I noticed you conveniantly neglected to answer the last portion of her response about what are married women with children supposed to do when there isn’t enough money to support another child?

    at some point, somebody has to determine, legally, when life begins.

    They have determined LEGALLY when life begins and that would be at birth. You not liking the facts doesn’t make them untrue.

    It would be nice if the trolls could think of some argument other than “having sex outside of what I find acceptable means teh sluts should be punished by forced childbearing”

    and by the way JustAGuy, all abortion is a form of birth control no matter the situation because you are controlling whether or not a birth is taking place, it is not however a form of contraception which is what I think you were trying to say.

  73. You won’t see it used as birth control because RU486 has nasty, nasty side-effects, it’s expensive, surgery fucking blows, etc etc

    For friggin’ serious. I never understand that obnoxious “I don’t want abortion used as birth control!” Do they think women consider such things fun and games? Like, an abortion is the thrill-equivalent of a roller-coaster or something? Why in the hell would they even think that women, by and large, would go, “Oh, I hope I get to have an abortion before I die! Gotta put that on the list of ‘things to do’!”

    The attitude speaks so severely of women being either a) intrinsically stupid, or b) intrinsically amoral, or incapable of moral reasoning. I mean, it ought to be pretty fricken’ obvious that, of course, abortion is always the last resort.

    (And, ironically, the only people using abortion as primary birth contro are those who are denied actual birth control, and generally are denied birth control by the very same types who decry that they don’t want those stupid girls to use abortion as birth control.)

  74. I’m pro-choice because life DOES NOT HAVE INHERENT MEANING. Only a life in progress can create meaning for itself. I’ve decided now that I’m here, I like being here. Gee, I guess you do too. But I sure don’t remember being a fetus, so if I had been aborted, I wouldn’t have cared much, now would I?

  75. “She gave you plenty of good arguments, you just happen not to like them or refuse to think of them as viable arguments probably because you are what is known as a troll therefore no matter what argument is offered to you it won’t be good enough.”

    To be fair, I think he meant I had failed to give him good arguments. Which was more or less true, to that point in the conversation.

  76. Oh, I missed this one. Musta gotten stuck in moderation.

    “You are not a qualified taunter,”

    I’m sorry, do you give certificates?

    ” just a very unhappy person.”

    Am I the one who showed up to troll a blog on your pet subject? No? Then maybe I’m not the one who’s unhappy.

    ” This might be a femeniste room”

    Ya think?

    ” and gender free”

    Rooms tend to be.

    “, which I doubt, but I will grant you that. ”

    You really, really, really need an English class. I mean, I dislike mocking grammar (although not enough to have not mocked your grammar before), but it’s actually imparing your ability to get your point across. You grant me that rooms are gender-free? That can’t be what you mean.

    “Guys, What is your role in this? Lets discuss it. Hello are you there? Sorry not too many guys here.”

    …I’m sorry, are you under the delusion that people can respond to you in real time?

    “And by the way, men don’t get to decide when life begins”

    Yet you’ve tried to do that here.

    “No one gets to decide when it begins, It begins when it begins. We need to discover when that is, together.”

    As others have pointed out, life begins at birth. Voila: discovered. Discovered together, even, and legally!

    The problem is that you’d like everyone else to agree with your definition of when life begins — only we don’t, and so you counsel us to “keep our legs together,” presumably because we might allow a penis other than yours to penetrate us, thus making you terribly jealous. You could counsel yourself to be castrated — which would reduce the number of abortions you could be party to — but that would spoil your fun. Much better to screech at us for being fallen.

    BTW — is anyone counting Bingo? I think we might have hit it.

  77. Hysterical Woman and I could start the Cletus The Dancing Fetus show, to teach objectively about pregnancy and abortion, with your hosts Felix The Double Helix and Olivia The Ovary.

  78. “She gave you plenty of good arguments, you just happen not to like them or refuse to think of them as viable arguments probably because you are what is known as a troll therefore no matter what argument is offered to you it won’t be good enough.”

    To be fair, I think he meant I had failed to give him good arguments. Which was more or less true, to that point in the conversation.

    Oh, oops. I think you meant me, too. I thought you were referring to Jill, who had actually been arguing with him as if he were a rational person.

    True, he didn’t reply to my note that married women need abortions, too. I didn’t really assume he would, though, since I didn’t take the time to explain why married women need abortions, and how that collapses his idiotic ranting about sluts whose legs he just can’t help droooooling as he imagines falling open.

  79. Stories like this are why I roll my eyes and grit my teeth whenever someone says, “I don’t think abortion should be illegal, but I would never have one.”

  80. If women would get together and abstain from premarital sex, the guys would have no choice but to wait.

    If men would act with modesty and decorum, keep their flies zipped, and abstain from premarital sex, then women would have no choice but to wait.

  81. As for using abortion as birth control… if it’s an unplanned or unwanted pregnancy and isn’t for specific medical reasons… wouldn’t that qualify as birth control? – JustAGuy

    Who decides what is a “medical reason”? If the doctor decides, why not just have this be a matter of medical ethics rather than getting government into it? If someone other than the doctor/patient decide, why are we having non-physicians (or those) not involved in the case at hand interfering in medical treatment?

    From a moral point of view, I can understand the “no abortion as birth control” argument. But from a practical, legal point of view, with which argument, if I understand you correctly you’ve effectively agreed, it’s rather problematic to have any sort of law forbidding “abortion as a form of birth control”.

    *

    Regarding the issue of when life begins: isn’t this just trying to dress up in secular language a religious debate about ensoulment that should have no place in how we establish secular laws?

    Personally — I take the Jewish view: life begins when the children move out and you finally have some peace and quiet. 😉

  82. I’m essentially 100% pro-choice. Largely for the reasons Vanessa gives about the physical consequences of pregnancy and the idea of forcing someone’s body to be cannibalised for another’s purposes. The better dead than disabled/unwanted/adopted line of reasoning always left me unmoved.

    But I’ve got to say partial birth abortion is a tough one from this point of view. As I understand it a partially delivered fetus is delivered, it’s then ‘killed’, and then extracted. At that stage the idea that we’re forcing anyone to use their organs to sustain another seems a bit of an irrelevance to me. The choice is between delivery alive or delivery dead. Not about someone’s body being in the physical service of another.

    So it comes down to whether the ‘killing’ bit is reasonable force to avoid the physical consequences of a live birth. Which is something (unlike the bodily servitude example) with plenty of parallels in other areas of law, and where it is possible you can’t kill someone in order to avoid non-fatal harm. I don’t know enough about the medical aspects or the law to call either way, but it doesn’t seem obviously clear cut in every case. This must be why they’re making such an issue of it.

  83. Greg said:

    What a bunch of whiners. You come up with so many lame excuses for brutal abortions. I have no excuses for rape or incest, Put the guy in jail for life I don’t care, castrate them.
    But don’t kill a defenseless baby. I am so sorry for you and the plight of being the child bearors. Deal with it.

    JustaGuy said:

    Mandolin, I thought this site was supposed to be about discussing issues… guess not.

    and

    The reason I’m here is to find out if feminism is the radical “romance is nothing but rape with meaningful looks” kind of feminism or if it’s truely about equality.

    I submit that this constitutes prima facie evidence of arguing in bad faith, and that both gentlemen are of the sort that reside beneath bridges and eat whole goats.

  84. Um, Nik, you can’t first deliver a fetus and then extract it. I’m not sure what you’re going on about, but you seem awfully confused about how these things actually work. Also, there is NO SUCH THING as partial-birth abortion. It’s not a medical term, it’s a term made up by people who are trying to get it outlawed, even though it’s often the safest way to preserve teh woman’s life and future fertility. AND that late term abortion stats include ‘abortions’ in which the fetus has already died in utero.

    Also, you do realise that abortions at that late date take place for dire reasons, right? A woman who’s happily gotten to five or six months pregnant doesn’t suddenly wake up one morning and decide she’s changed her mind. These abortions often occur on PLANNED pregnancies. Go on, tell a woman who’s had one that she’s unreasonable for wanting to be around to raise the kids she already has, or not wanting to continue a pregnancy that will inevitably end with her baby dying shortly after it’s born.

  85. “Oh, you know, if all you folks who lived in big cities would just stop drinking the water, the state wouldn’t be expected to pay for your chemo 20 years down the line. What, you don’t have money for bottled water forever? Well, then, you deserve to die. I mean, you brought this on yourself. You should have kept your mouths closed. Only those of us who are lucky enough to have been born away from pollution-making factories deserve to have a choice about what water we drink and when.”

  86. Expanding on Raincitygirl’s comment #101:

    Sometimes, a pregnancy goes drastically wrong. Sometimes the fetus develops terrible problems, such that it wouldn’t live more than a few months past birth. Sometimes the fetus actually dies, and its body starts to rot and poison the woman’s bloodstream.

    In such cases, the best way of avoiding further injury and grief is what the doctors call ‘intact dilation and extraction’ — they dilate the cervix, cut the fetus into pieces (because by then it’s too big to remove any other way), and extract the pieces. It’s yucky to think about, but so are open-heart surgeries or colonostomies.

    Far-right extremists began to use the phrase ‘partial-birth abortion’ to describe this procedure. Once they got the media to accept their phrase, they started using the same phrase to describe almost all surgical abortions. This is why you sometimes see people claim that ‘partial-birth abortions’ are vanishingly rare: they’re talking about intact dilation and extraction. Other times you see people claim that lots of ‘partial-birth abortions’ take place every year: they’re talking about surgical abortions in general.

    Attempts to ban ‘partial-birth abortion’ are bad-faith attempts to ban any abortion. That’s why “they’re making such an issue of it”.

  87. Oops, cut myself off.

    “Oh, I know. You drink the water because you LIKE getting chemo. Every Tuesday, all you silly city-dwellers head down for optional chemo sessions. I mean, of course you chose to drink from your kitchen tap; since you didn’t make the decision to pay to have giant bottles hand-delivered at your door twice a week, you are obviously an irresponsible individual and deserve to be punished. Any rational person can see that treatments for cancer are a last resort after preventive measures have failed; however, since your preventive measures failed, obviously you’re immoral and don’t deserve treatment. QED.”

  88. hey greg, abortion isnt going anywhere, whether you like it or not. so, as you so like to say, deal with it 🙂

  89. Yes, surgical abortion is icky. But you know what would be ickier? My cousin dying at the age of 29 because if she didn’t have an abortion she couldn’t get treatment for the cancerous tumour that was trying to kill her. If she hadn’t had that abortion, my uncle and aunt would’ve lost their eldest child, her husband would’ve been a widower at the age of 30, and the two beautiful kids she has now would never have been conceived. And BTW, my cousin and her husband planned that pregnancy, and grieved having to end it.

  90. Other times you see people claim that lots of ‘partial-birth abortions’ take place every year: they’re talking about surgical abortions in general.

    I’ve also heard the claim that “the majority of late-term abortions are elective”. Which sounds bad until you realize that in medical terminology, elective is just the opposite of emergency – so it does not mean “just woke up one morning 8 months along and decided to get an abortion”, it means that the situation wasn’t an emergency.

  91. Nik – I kind of think you might be kind of mislead on dialation and extraction (not surprising or your fault given the media’s misrepresentation of it) – what they call partial birth abortion.

    It’s my understanding that this procedure is used when the fetus is too big to be removed with a curettage (the tool they use in D&C abortions). Not when the fetus is viable outside the womb. So this procedure could be used on, say, a 16 week old fetus with no chance of being viable outside the uterus. A fetus sin’t considered viable until I think 24 weeks, and even then doesn’t stand a good chance until about 10 weeks after that. (If I remember correctly, the most premature singleton birth that survived was 21 weeks? Don’t remember exactly where I heard that…) So it’s not a matter of choosing to deliver it alive or dead.

    And the reason they collapse the skull upon partian extraction is because there’s a difference between the cervix of a woman delivering at 9 months and the cervix of a woman at 16 weeks. The head won’t fit through at that stage, and the cervix isn’t all soft and bendy yet.

    The alternative procedure to a D&X abortion I believe involves cutting up the fetus inside the uterus and removing it that way, which carries a high risk of puncturing the womb and destroying a woman’s future fertility.

  92. Greg – I’m a guy. Does that make a difference? Do all of these mere women’s opinions that you find so easy to dismiss as “whining” now count for something because someone with a dick has given it his seal of approval? Is this “room” legitimized by my presence?

    You came in here swinging and shouting, making proclamations instead of arguments, generally trying to assert your authority.

    Sorry, buddy. You don’t have any here. Guess what? Neither do I. These women don’t need guys to agree with them to legitimize what they say.

    Whatever power you may have elsewhere – in your home, your workplace, among your friends, at other blogs where people agree with you – the only power you have here comes from the strength of your arguments. And quite frankly, they don’t have any. That was what Amanda’s joke was about: they’ve seen your arguments a million times before. Every time the subject of abortion comes up, some asshole chimes in with some variation of what she said. And guess what? This time, you are that asshole. You are that joke.

    And people are going to tell you that here. Because – and I know this is going to be difficult to get through your head: you don’t matter here. You are not important. You are a nasty individual, latest in a long line of similar, who is doing nothing but repeat the same ol’ same ol’. No matter how many times you tell them to shut up and deal with it, they will not. And no matter how violent the language you use to illustrate what you think of abortion, you’re not going to shame or intimidate anyone. Better than you have tried.

  93. I find it interesting that both Greg and Justaguy, while vehemently anti-abortion overall, are very sympathetic to this particular woman from the post…who had a partial-birth abortion!

    Yes, I know that, medically speaking, there is no such thing, but that is no doubt how the procedure this woman underwent would be described by anti-choicers.

    Is it because she’s a married woman whose terrible situation isn’t her “fault”? Or just because she’s a real person in a bad situation, not a strawslut? Probably the former, I suppose. Exceptions are easier to make the rarer the conditions are, as Greg so helpfully pointed out. Still, the whole point is that laws don’t make exceptions, and that women like this are actually out there to be hurt by the laws that were only supposed to hurt the strawsluts.

  94. Something else that is rarely mentioned is that in many (if not most?) cases, the fetus’s heart is stopped before the abortion procedure, so the common misconception of a live fetus being dismembered, or being delivered and having it’s skull collapsed are false. When my second pregnancy went horribly wrong, I met a lot of women who had undergone late D&E’s or D&X’s and in every case the fetus was dead before the actual procedure took place because of a drug injected to stop the heart. I opted for an induced labor without fetal death beforehand, so my child was born alive and died after birth, so I don’t know from first hand experience, but I know that was also the option presented to me when I was asked if I wanted to terminate. Having been there, there are few things I can think of as devestating as sitting across from a doctor who has just told you the child you wanted more than anything will simply not survive, no matter what you do. For anyone to pop on with snarky comments about women just needing to keep their legs closed and make men wait until marriage is about as insensitive and assholish as you can get. I hate people.
    Vanessa, I agree with almost everything you said, except I think by 28 weeks, the fetus has a good chance of survival, 95% if not accompanied by other defects. I can’t remember the source for that figure, but I remember reading it when I started contracting at 27 weeks with my third pregnancy and was scared that I was going to lose him too. That being said, you are absolutely correct that most of these procedures are not a choice between live birth or death, it’s death by one means or death by another.

  95. Moira, I’m trying to read and learn. Don’t berate me because Adrea Dworkin said something I repeated it. I was simply stating why I was here if you don’t like it I really don’t care.

  96. Yeah, I may be misremembering the exact amount of weeks. But the point remains.

    So sorry you had to go through that, though. It’s something I think Western culture hasn’t quite got a grasp on (miscarriage/fetal death/any of the myriad ways a pregnancy can go wrong) so it can be difficult to figure out emotionally. At least it was for me.

  97. Seraph, reread my posts. I never said I was anti-abortion and I even said that I don’t think this procedure should be illegal. What I said was I don’t think it should be used when the cause was caused by irresponsibility of the parties involved. But that is not for me to decide and is just my opinion. There are many opinions on here.

    I believe I did say earlier that I think abortion should be legal and available though. Just because I don’t agree with something doesn’t mean I’m in favor of taking it away from others.

  98. Did you get that quote from reading Ms. Dworkin, or from someone who likes to mischaracterize feminists as lesbian man-hating godless communist feminazis? I suspect that it’s not the former. The reason you stated for being here is standard concern troll language. You’re not the first man to come to a feminist blog with the ostensible purpose of wanting to learn more about feminism. That rarely seems to last long and devolves quickly into blatant misogyny.

    It’s not a matter of ‘once bitten, twice shy’ but of being bitten hundreds of times. So you’ll forgive a little paranoia, I hope, in the interest of furthering your education into things feminist.

  99. What I said was I don’t think it should be used when the cause was caused by irresponsibility of the parties involved.

    JustaGuy – I still really can’t understand why you think people should have to bear children as a form of punishment for being irresponsible? What if a woman was completely responsible about birth control, but it didn’t work? From a more global perspective, it seems like it’s the responsible woman who should be made to have the children, if you’re going to force anyone to do it.

  100. As I understand it a partially delivered fetus is delivered, it’s then ‘killed’, and then extracted.

    Yes, the fetus is “killed” with what they in the medical community call an “aborting mallet”. Because it’s a little known fact that part of the abortionist’s training actually instils into the doctors a pathological hatred of cute widdle babies eyes, the sight of which sends them into malleting frenzy.

    Oh and for those who don’t understand how it’s physically possible to deliver then extract a fetus, what I think nik means is that the jojoba extract that they put in most shampoos and beauty products these days is gathered from the mangled corpses of fetii after it’s malleted intensely by the bling encrusted abortionist.

    Like, an abortion is the thrill-equivalent of a roller-coaster or something?

    well they are, why else do you think they call RU486 “the orgasm pill”?

  101. Justaguy (and Greg too, I suppose) – if you support medical exceptions for abortion, then the million dollar question is – who gets to decide? All pregnancies bear some risk, some bear fairly small risk, others tremendous risk. Who gets to decide where the cutoff is if not the woman and her physician? Is a 5% chance of death enough to get an abortion? 50%? 20% chance of death and 80% chance of blindness? Where’s that cutoff? Every pregnancy is a gamble – why should the government get to say when the woman can take her money off the table and go home?

    From the government’s POV, of course, women are maddeningly variable on the subject. The same woman willing to risk a heavy risk of death for a much wanted baby, may be unwilling to take a much smaller chance of death at some other point in her life. But if the government were to step in and say “There must be a general agreement that the woman’s life is #% in danger before we allow an abortion,” then you’re not far off from having them say that above that risk level, one must have an abortion. The problem isn’t with the women – it’s with trying to legislate a simple proscriptive answer to one of the most complicated issues out there.

  102. I don’t like commenting on abortion issues because I don’t feel that it is my place. I do think that partial birth abortion, even though they are “murder,” should be allowed to do what is in the best interest of herself and her baby. I tend not to like the argument that many people make that if we allow abortions, this will launch into women getting tons of abortions and never being responsible.

    I believe that one of the most difficult decisions in a woman’s life, amongst many others, is child bearing. Abortion is something that I am certain many women do not take lightly. Actually, I know they don’t take it lightly. In Real World: LA (save your MTV bashing, please), Tami got an abortion during the show. She clearly struggled with it. I feel confident in saying that most women are like her when it comes to this issue. MTV did a good job with it as well; they didn’t sugarcoat it or try to jazz it up as it was a very serious conversation to be had on a show such as the Real World. This is only one example. But, I do think that many other people have the same sort of internal struggle and personal difficulty with the issue, much to the suggestion of the pro-lifers.

    I believe, like many others, women should not have their bodies governed by the political system and should be able to do whatever they need to ensure their health, even if that means getting a partial birth abortion.

  103. I’m new here, so I hope I don’t step on any toes.

    JustaGuy, you said:

    What I said was I don’t think it should be used when the cause was caused by irresponsibility of the parties involved.

    So, who gets to decide what is irresponsible and what not? For example, if I have sex with somebody, using a condom, it breaks and I get pregnant – have I been irresponsible by sleeping with a man I’m not married too and have no intention of marrying or were we responsible by using protection which just happened to be faulty, something we couldn’t possibly know? In other words, should I be able to get an abortion, if I felt I needed one, or not?

    The problem with tying a right to a not easily defined condition like responsibility or percived morality or something like that, is that somebody else gets the power to decide if the applicant meets the condition. And that power can so very easily be abused.

  104. Exactly Tapetum. Every single pregnancy, even those that are seemingly low-risk, can have very devestating health and life risks. That’s why I always come down on the side of the woman whose life and health will be at risk to make the choice whether or not she is willing to take that risk. My first pregnancy was as routine as could be, until I got Bell’s Palsy in my third trimester, which paralyzed half of my face for 8 weeks. To this day, only half of my mouth works when I try to smile and I’ve lost involuntary control over my left eye. Not a huge deal, but enough that it makes me really self-conscious.
    Thanks Vanessa… I agree that it can be extremely difficult to work through those sort of things. I had a miscarriage at 5 weeks and I was devestated, but I also didn’t equate it with losing a baby. I was just really sad about what could have been. With Kyle (the child we lost), it was different because I do consider him a baby/child, but it was hard to reconcile “chose to end the pregnancy early b/c of health issues with him and myself” with the maternal feelings I was having at the same time.

  105. At some point, the pro-life front is going to get some kind of restrictions applied… it’s just a matter of time.

    Um, there are already all kinds of restrictions on abortion right now, since legally it’s difficult to get an abortion on demand in the second trimester (4-6 months) and almost impossible to get one in the third (7-9 months). It varies widely by state, but almost no state allows abortion for anything other than the life/health of the mother or the non-viability of the fetus during the third trimester.

    Take a look at the fact sheets from the Guttmacher Institute. The restrictions you envision are already here. What we’re trying to do is prevent more restrictions from being put on top of them.

  106. Two thoughts.

    A) I know this point has all ready been brought up, but when a friend said this to me five years ago I instantly became pro-choice. We were talking about how adoption is so much better for a woman we know who was pregnant and strung out on meth. My friend turned to me and said, “Okay. Are YOU going to go adopt a bi-racial crack baby?”

    And along those lines, I really hate the opinion that women should have the baby because they had the sex, they should have to ‘suffer’ the consequences. I don’t think that a baby who is born as a consequence stands much of a chance of anything. I agree and firmly believe that given a fair opportunity miracles can happen, but I also know that there are plenty of children who’s choices I wouldn’t want to have.

    B) In the book Manifesta, the authors argue that male sterilization is the best form of birth control. Safest, cheapest, most effective. We can freeze up some sperm samples for later use, and in the mean time just go ahead and put an end to all this ‘nonsense’. Want to volunteer, Greg?

  107. JustAGuy originally told us of his 14 year old cousin who completed a pregnancy and adopted out happily ever after.

    He later spoke of his cousin having 2 abortions and thinking about them every Mother’s Day, which he knows because she’s said so. (Perhaps said so just to shut the cousin with the monomania up already.)

    Either there’s 2 cousins, a cousin who once older and able to make her own decisions had abortions instead of completing 2 unplanned pregnancies (maybe she didn’t consider that first pregnancy the best option after all), or JustAGuy has a plethora of imaginary cousins to support any argument against abortion that he cares to make.

  108. Wow i have missed a lot.
    Hysterical I am a vegetarian so i can’t have a fetus or zygote or anyother scientific word implanted, unless it is 100% organic, then I might consider.

    Mandonin, your certificate will come in the same envelope my english degree comes in. but seriously, is there some special female veil that the fetus passes through to become live.

    Face the facts, both sexes are responsible for making babies. Men and women, unfortunately women have a different burden to bare. was my comma in the write place? So, your response is anger at me for pointing out the obvious. Women have to deal with the pregnancy, so deal with it. Abstinence seems to make sense to me. But I am married and want a baby. Unfortunately I or my Duggar-ish wanna be wanna be wife are not capable. So I could start a blog and whine or go adopt a baby who needs a home. I happen to be a problem solver.

  109. I don’t support any exceptions for abortion and will not change my mind. I believe that it is a living human, some here don’t. You won’t change, I won’t change.

    Neepernu, I would consider adopting any crack baby as anyone who has done any research would know is a bit of a misleading term, those babies usually end up normal.

    My sterilization wouldn’t help anyone as I am commited to my wife, a novel concept in some corners of the world, and one of us is already infertile. Sorry to disappoint.

    Mnemosyne, why don’t you get some of your pro-choice friends to go to med school and then you can get all the late term abortions you want? because only twisted people would kill a baby, and that is what it is.

  110. Just one little thing, we, as pro-choice folk, REALLY need to stop calling it a “partial-birth abortion”, even amongst ourselves. It frustrates me to no end that anti-choice activists have been so successful at getting their terms into common use, and it is important that we keep on the media, and on ourselves, that there simply is no procedure called “partial birth abortion”.

  111. “But I am married and want a baby. Unfortunately I or my Duggar-ish wanna be wanna be wife are not capable.”

    Ah.

    So the entire tirade is about our duty to bear bebies for him.

    That’s almost sad, except for the part where he wants to control other peoples’ lives for his benefit.

  112. Women have to deal with the pregnancy, so deal with it.

    Oh, we do. And one way, is by having abortions.

  113. I really hate the opinion that women should have the baby because they had the sex, they should have to ’suffer’ the consequences.

    I’d like to add: As though getting an abortion is not a consequence. As though it’s a walk in the park. Anyone who could think that has no reality to base their opinions on.

  114. RKMK, you beat me to the obvious.

    I’m a bit concerned that troll-boy doesn’t know that fetuses and zygotes are organic. It throws his whole logic into a spiral-babies are organic, so how can a fetus be exactly the same as a baybee if it isn’t organic? If fetuses are inorganic, then why does abortion bother him so much?

    Or maybe it’s that he doesn’t like teh science, and abortion uses all sorts of scientificy sounding words?

  115. When people ask me why I made such an “extreme” choice as to have my tubes tied at 25, I point them to such fine exhibits as Greg et al. Because I know that with my medical problems, an accidental pregnancy would be life-threatening. And I don’t need people like Greg et al. saying “Ha, how dare you have sex with your husband, you horrible slut, shoulda kept your legs shut… die, bitch. Just don’t hurt the precious innocent baby that will probably be born with two heads anyways after you’ve been taking Pregnancy Category X meds weekly for six years now. Ha ha, serves you right!”

    I will always fight for women to make their own medical choices (i.e.: birth control, abortion, etc). But I will also sleep a little more sound at night knowing that although I’m still at risk of my kidneys shutting down or any of the other potential causes of death my illness threatens, at least I won’t die from an accidental pregnancy.

  116. justaguy –

    You’re right. You spend the entire thread arguing the anti-choice talking points that abortion shouldn’t be used as “birth control”, or if the parties are “irresponsible”, but in the end you admit that you don’t want it outlawed.

    My mistake. You’re not an anti-choice troll. Just 95% of one.

  117. The organic comment was a lame attempt at humor.

    Let me see if I have the main points,

    1. abortion is an invasive procedure that in itself if hard on women

    2. Childbirth is an invasion of your body that could lead to health problems as well.

    3. Birth control is not always effective

    4. abstinance always works(except rape or other coersions)

    Which one should I choose and which one should I argue for? You tell me where I am wrong, as if I needed to tell you that.

  118. Is there something wrong with my comments? I truly have enjoyed the conversation despite some unpleasantries. Do you have a rule sheet I could read to make sure I get on?
    I am sorry if I offended, I would just like to listen and share an answer when I feel so moved. You can email me if you want to.

  119. Well, abstinence doesn’t work in the cases that would be affected by the abortion ban discussed in this post, because THEY ARE WANTED PREGNANCIES. How many times must the same point be repeated? Wanted pregnancies where the mother gets extremely sick and the fetus has to be removed or we lose the mom, and by extension the fetus (dead mothers can’t really bring healthy babies into the world) OR you have a circumstance where the fetus has already died, is going to die shortly before or after birth or is so severely disabled it has no chance at a meaningful existance. My planned, tried for, wanted son was diagnosed with a fatal birth defect at 22 weeks, a fairly horrific one that involves a whole plethera of defecfts. Tell me how abstinence would have helped in that situation? Should I just tell my husband that we’re not having sex anymore, even if we decide we want another child, because there’s a chance we might have another doomed pregnancy? Sure, that would be a big hit. Abstinence doesn’t work in these cases and it is NOT a realistic strategy in most relationships. If I told my husband tomorrow that we just weren’t having sex anymore, I have a feeling the quality of our marriage would suffer quite a bit. It’s not everything, and it’s not the most important thing, but sex is a big part of most intimate adult relationships. Pregnancy can be a welcome addition to a relationship and then go horribly, horribly wrong. It happens and much more than you would think. When we lost our son, I met countless number of women who had gone through the exact same thing. The ultrasound you were so eagerly anticipating and then the horrible news that your child was not going to survive. Until you’ve been there, you have no goddamned right to come on here lecturing women who have been there about how this all could have been prevented if they just didn’t have sex.

  120. Is there something wrong with my comments?

    Um…

    1.

    If women would get together and abstain from premarital sex, the guys would have no choice but to wait.

    Yo Mandolin, Women don’t get to decide when life begins.

    What a bunch of whiners.

    Keep those opens minds going.

    Does he realize that the words don’t just… melt away? That they stay there, ready to be read again?

    You can email me if you want to…

    At the email you… haven’t provided.

  121. “I truly have enjoyed the conversation”

    And that’s one-sided.

    See, pro-choice women inexplicably don’t like being told that they shouldn’t have control of their bodies. Astonishing, that.

    Next-up: Abusive Husband Shocked to Find Wife Dislikes Black Eyes

  122. I acknowledge that this topic started out about something totally different than what it is now. My first comment began as a remark to the joke about closing your legs. My comment is directed at your attitude of anger. You continue to say that abortion is the solution and I disagree. let me restate my thesis.
    You claim the following in this string of opinions
    1. abortion is an invasive procedure that in itself if hard on women bodies
    2. Childbirth is an invasion of your body that could lead to health problems as well.
    3. Birth control is not always effective
    I added that
    4. abstinance always works(except rape or other coersions
    Do you disagree? What options am I missing?

  123. Hey i am a sensative guy, I know I have pissed you off to say the least. I know my existance drives you crazy. Could you respond to my post? What alternative do you have? Or do you want to lament about your lack of control over your body. Maybe more aerobic would keep those legs together better. How is that for control.

  124. Next-up: Abusive Husband Shocked to Find Wife Dislikes Black Eyes

    FTW!

    Greg, not surprisingly, you’re missing the last half of each of those sentences.

    1. abortion is an invasive procedure that in itself if hard on women bodies, ergo, it is ridiculous to believe women truly choose it as their first line of defense in matters of birth control.

    2. Childbirth is an invasion of your body that could lead to health problems as well, which is why no one has the right to force it upon another person against their will
    3. Birth control is not always effective, which is why abortion needs to be readily available as a backup option.

    Do try to keep up.

  125. And that would be? Mary. So she was forced to carry God’s son? Are you sayin that or am I losing it?

    Not all women hate the idea of having a baby.

  126. Greg, I am a patient person, but if you keep making condescending and rude comments (“keep your legs together,” etc), I’m taking you out of this thread.

    We can agree to disagree, but curb the insults, please.

  127. Oh yeah, Greg. My husband of fifteen years is going to *love* being told we’re never having sex again. That’d go over real well (with both of us). Oddly enough though, when we start talking sterilization, a lot of people feel impelled to yell at us about that too.

    And, um, yeah, there is this special female veil that a fetus goes through to achieve life. It’s called pregnancy. You see that lovely blastocyte you’re so enamoured of is never going to achieve much of anything unless it implants on a uterine wall and sucks nutrition and energy out of the mother for nine months. And it can be wonderful – and it can be hell. Sometimes both at once. (I hear you on the pubic symphyseal separation and hip pain, Vanessa. BTDT)

  128. “4. abstinance always works(except rape or other coersions
    Do you disagree? What options am I missing? ”

    The one where adults get to decide how to deal with the options on their own, without your legal coercion.

    For instance the bit where:

    1. I practice birth control — often two forms at once!
    2. I have sex when I and my partner are in proximity and in the mood. This allows us to have intimate time together, and to have fun.
    3. When birth control gives a sign of failing (condom breakage, for instance), I take a morning after pill.
    4. I’m probably infertile anyway.
    5. Then, if I happen to get pregnant despite 1-4, I make an appointment to have a cluster of parasitic, non-sentient cells removed from my body.

    Your list of options is not a sort of buffet where women have to pick one, and move on. We can use them all — together, even.

    But let’s get this onto the real subject — *your* medical decisions. Do you take any medications? Can you prove to me that you don’t need them because you were irresponsible? I will need signed doctor’s certificates.

    And btw, if you get cancer, you’re shit out of luck. Don’t you know that stuff has human DNA?

  129. I acknowledge that this topic started out about something totally different than what it is now. My first comment began as a remark to the joke about closing your legs. My comment is directed at your attitude of anger

    Yeah, funny how that works. You come into a thread that talks about a woman who made a horribly painful decision to terminate a wanted pregnancy. A decision which you have never had to make and seem to think is just “oh so easy” and make a joke about how if the woman in question had just kept her legs closed, she would have been fine and you expect us to treat you with respect? Are you really serious? Listen, I was “pro-life” until a couple years ago myself, and even in the height of my assholishness, I never in a million years would have come onto a thread about such a heartbreaking topic with anything but sympathy for the woman in question. So do I have an attitude of anger? Yeah, just a bit. Do the other pro-choice women on here who are sick and tired of misogynistic assholes telling them what they can and cannot do with their bodies have an attitude of anger? Probably. Is it justified? Absolutely. Do I disagree that abstinence always works. Yes, I absolutely disagree. Look, in the post alone, the fetus was the wanted result of a planned pregnancy. My first son was the result of a wanted, planned pregnancy. Yet, both pregancies ended in termination, albeit by different means, because you cannot predict the future. Why do you refuse to see that? And seriously, what is up with all the trolls “I don’t care that this post talks about late term abortions of wanted pregnancies, lets talk about what I want to talk about”.

  130. I don’t take any drugs. I don’t go to the doctor. I will agree to disagree. I didn’t make the legs comment. I was simply saying there was some truth to it. I guess you are confused in my view.

    What is wrong with teaching abstinance? Is it perfect? of course not, some people will choose to partake.

    I am not refering to married people at all. That would be better suited for a different day. I was simply making the statement that I will teach my daughter about abstinance. IF and that is a big IF, we can get as many people to quit having sex outside marriage, then we will have less unwanted pregnancies. Is that wrong? No

    Parents need to teach abstinance then they need to follow up with their children. They need to moniter them and all they do. If they love them then they will not want them to have an abortion, a baby, or any other option out there. IF that could happen then more of the unwanted babies could be adopted. But will that happen, probably not. Most parents send their young girls and boys off to the prom in a nice limo and credit card for the local Holiday Inn.

  131. And that would be? Mary. So she was forced to carry God’s son? Are you sayin that or am I losing it?

    I’m saying that abstinence isn’t 100% effective. Or do you think the Bible is lying?

  132. I am not refering to married people at all

    No? In response to the heartbreaking story that this married woman told about having to terminate a very much wanted pregnancy, you said:

    I imagine it was not a joke but a truth. The baby is the one being punished by you poor afflicted women. You poor things, how could that baby invade your personal, private business. I will obviously get what it deserves. I has a constitutional right to a safe and healthy execution.

    So, tell us, Greg, was she wrong to “punish” her non-viable fetus by terminating it? You’ve been arguing that the whole time here.

  133. Well baring another immaculate conception, I think it is 100%.

    I think God choose Mary because he knew she would agree. And while she questioned how it would work, she never rejected it.

    So absolutely not, The Bible was not lying.

  134. “I don’t take any drugs. I don’t go to the doctor. I will agree to disagree. I didn’t make the legs comment. I was simply saying there was some truth to it. I guess you are confused in my view.”

    I don’t think there’s any truth to it. The woman in the post was married. She had a planned pregnancy. How would “keepiung her legs closed” have made any difference?

    “What is wrong with teaching abstinance? Is it perfect? of course not, some people will choose to partake.”

    Some of us don’t agree with you that it’s a moral good. Some of us aren’t Christian. Whee! And we don’t have to live by your arbitrary rules.

    “I am not refering to married people at all.”

    Funny. The post is.

    “IF and that is a big IF, we can get as many people to quit having sex outside marriage, then we will have less unwanted pregnancies. Is that wrong? No.”

    But it’s as close to wrong as to make no difference. Married women have undesired pregnancies, too. Sometimes desired pregnancies go wrong. And almost 1/4 of women are raped, so the “coersion” [sic] you wanted to dismiss as an exception earlier is not exactly something that never affects women’s lives.

    Sometimes people want the pregnancies they have while they’re not married. My parents decided to have a child together before they decided to get married.

    “Parents need to teach abstinance then they need to follow up with their children.”

    But. Parents. May. Not. Agree. With. You.

    My parents are pro-choice and pro-sex. If I have kids, I will also be pro-choice and pro-sex.

    “If they love them then they will not want them to have an abortion, a baby, or any other option out there.”

    Oh, did I mention that my parents and I are also pro-contraception? 99% effectiveness is not 100%. But abstinence is only effective so long as you don’t get raped.

    I have a friend who was taught abstinence, and her parents tried to shield her from all knowledge of sex. She was raped as a direct consequence of this shield.

    I know her parents well, and I think they are wonderful people, but they participated in creating the circumstances that caused an evil act. And that should haunt them.

    “IF that could happen then more of the unwanted babies could be adopted. But will that happen, probably not. Most parents send their young girls and boys off to the prom in a nice limo and credit card for the local Holiday Inn.”

    Because — and I know it drives you nuts — not everyone shares your beliefs. And we’re allowed to run our lives the way we want.

    You never did answer me about how many innocent babies you murdered today by not having sex.

  135. That comment was made in response to comment # 5 for the last time.
    None of my comments in this post except # 37 have been about the original post and for that I apologize. Maybe I should have waited to give my opinion when the timing was better. Please accept my apology in this matter. If you have a better place to continue I would, but I will stop commenting here. I truly don’t want to hurt a woman who has already suffered enough.

  136. “So absolutely not, The Bible was not lying.”

    Well, except inasmuch as it’s all lies.*

    *to Christians participating in this thread who are not jerks, I use this line of argument because Greg appears to think it’s acceptable to force everyone to act on his beliefs. In that case, it’s relevant whether or not the Bible is true — and I believe it’s bupkiss. If you don’t try to make me follow it, however, I support your right to enjoy your faith.

  137. Well baring another immaculate conception, I think it is 100%.

    I think God choose Mary because he knew she would agree. And while she questioned how it would work, she never rejected it.

    Greg, you’re showing your ignorance of the religion you profess.

    The Immaculate Conception refers not to Jesus’ conception, but to Mary’s. God didn’t just pick out any old girl at random; he created her via immaculate conception so that she was born without original sin and the taint of sexual reproduction. According to the mythology, then, she was without any real choice in the matter.

    Maybe you ought to crack the Bible now and again if you’re going to make Biblical arguments.

  138. Sperm is not a zygote. I never said it was. I also said that rape doesn’t count when it comes to abstinence. I am pro sex as well.
    I just don’t want my daughter out there with any boy who comes along, gets pregnant, cervical cancer, or dead and then regrets the rest of her life that she gave away her body for some femanist ideal that she controls her body.

    I don’t want to run your life either. I would like to encourage an intelligent person like yourself to run you life like you only get one.
    Abstinance does not mean shielding from sex. Did I say that?
    You tell the truth about it.

  139. I stand corrected on that usage. I don’t believe that Mary was a result of virgin birth however. My ignorance shows in that I have always thought the immaculate conceptions refered to Jesus. I stand corrected.

  140. “Abstinance does not mean shielding from sex. Did I say that?”

    The one is frequently used to justify the other.

    “I don’t want to run your life either. I would like to encourage an intelligent person like yourself to run you life like you only get one.”

    But you do.

    You keep saying this isn’t about married women, or raped women, and so on — but you want to stop us all from having abortions. And that, sir, is running my life.

    Unless I miss my mark, you’ve argued against rape and incest exceptions (which is, in its way, something I respect — if this really is about babeez, and not punishing women, then I don’t see a way for anyone with ethics not to protect “babies” regardless of their conception). So when you say that rape doesn’t count, it does. A woman who is raped — and let’s hit that 25% figure again — may be forced to be pregnant and bear a child against her will.

    I do know, of course, that sperm aren’t zygotes. But neither are zygotes babies. Can you make an argument for why they should be treated like babies?

    The problem is that the only argument to be made for why zygote should be considered legally equal to baby can not be made on medical grounds. Instead, it must be made on religious grounds. You may believe a zygote is ensoulled. However, I, as an atheist, don’t. And it’s immoral for you to make laws to force your religion on me.

    If we set spirituality aside, and just look at medicine, then a zygote is indeed capable of becoming a baby — but so is a sperm. Eliminate the concept of a soul, and why is one potential more sacred than the other? (hint: it begins with “pat” and ends with “archy”)

  141. From wikipedia “There is a widespread misunderstanding of the term immaculate conception. Many people, even many Catholics, believe this refers to the conception of Jesus by Mary. It is not unusual for even the mass media to mistake the two concepts. Because of this, the immaculate conception is sometimes jokingly referred to as “the immaculate misconception”. The conception of Jesus by Mary is more properly called the Incarnation of Christ. ”

    This does not justify my confusion. But apparently it is somewhat common, again thank you for informing me of my mistake.

  142. I don’t believe that Mary was a result of virgin birth however.

    No, and I never claimed that, either. You really should look inside that Bible you keep beating people with.

  143. I have tried to argue that we don’t KNOW when life begins. There is no real test for when that fetus is alive. That is why there is still a debate about abortion. If we really knew that it wasn’t alive until it breathed, then only a few real nuts would argue. That is my opinion.
    I don’t think rape victims should be allowed to abort because I think it it a baby from conceptions. The sperm dies and the egg dies to create life. Can I prove it, of course not.
    I don’t know you and I promise I don’t want to run your life. Do you want to run mine?
    I haven’t used a single religious argument for when life begins.
    Instinct tell most people that it is a baby. Why would you talk and sing and rub a zygote.
    Besides until medicine proves that it isn’t a baby then I will err on the side of caution and life. I am sorry I was born a man.

  144. For the record, all the women in my circle of friends were married when they had their abortions. All of them were, in a way, due to contraceptive failure of one variety or another; the condom broke, she was given an antibiotic that counteracted her birth control but didn’t know this, got pregnant while nursing, etc.

    And if you had asked them why, the reasons were at that intersection of personal burden, economic burden, and family impact. Not able to afford another child, not able to afford another pregnancy that would require a lot of expensive medical intervention, not able to personally handle having kids ten months apart in age, not able to handle having a severely disabled child.

    I personally think a good start on reducing abortions would be to get our society to the point where no woman is having abortions for economic reasons. Until then, it’s not my business why another woman has to go through it.

    Oh, and incidentally? It hurts, and it takes a couple days out of your life, and it’s expensive, and I REALLY would have preferred the contraception I was originally using to have worked so I wouldn’t have been in the situation in the first place. I have never regretted the action. I have been sad that I was ever in the situation where I had to make that decision. They’re two different things, and the point is very subtle.

    And just in case, I’m planting an herb garden.

  145. There is no real test for when that fetus is alive. That is why there is still a debate about abortion.

    Actually, no. Many of us have argued -even right here! in this thread! – that even if life begins at conception, I don’t care: no living being has the right to leech itself off of my organs without my consent. Here’s some beginner’s reading for you, on the subject of bodily autonomy… though with this:

    I’m sorry I was born a man.

    you lost any credibility whatsoever that you are arguing in good faith. Not that there was much doubt, anyways.

  146. “I have tried to argue that we don’t KNOW when life begins. There is no real test for when that fetus is alive.”

    We know there’s no real significant brain activity until sometime in the third trimester, IIRC. Certainly not in teh first.

    ” That is why there is still a debate about abortion. If we really knew that it wasn’t alive until it breathed, then only a few real nuts would argue. That is my opinion.”

    Do you think tagging “that is my opinion” will mean I won’t argue with you?

    There’s data about when a fetus’s brain starts working. That’s when it starts living.

    The only other argument is abotu souls.

    “I don’t think rape victims should be allowed to abort because I think it it a baby from conceptions. The sperm dies and the egg dies to create life. Can I prove it, of course not.”

    No, because that’s not how biology works. The sperm dies? The egg *dies?*

    You need to learn more about this, too.

    “I don’t know you and I promise I don’t want to run your life. Do you want to run mine?”

    You want to make abortion illegal. That is running my life. I said that before.

    I don’t see where I’ve made a parallel (non-sarcastic) suggestion that I want to infringe on your liberty.

    “I haven’t used a single religious argument for when life begins.”

    Great. Make a non-religious one that doesn’t boil down to “I’m uninformed.”

    “Instinct tell most people that it is a baby. Why would you talk and sing and rub a zygote.”

    Because we anthroporphize shit. I sing to my rats, for heaven’s sake. (Hell, I talk to my computer. That doesn’t make it Ghandi.)

    Instinct tells us lots of stuff. Like that it’s acceptable to crap wherever we wish. We potty-train people because instinct is not the end all and be all.

    “Besides until medicine proves that it isn’t a baby then I will err on the side of caution and life.”

    Great. And your justification for why a fetus’s brain activity does not indicate its life or lack thereof, is…?

    “I am sorry I was born a man.”

    I’m sorry you were born, too.

    Sorry. You just keep giving me these openings.

    Look, you’re not sorry you were born a man, you’re just pouting and sulking because I won’t kowtow to your opinion — which you insist on repeating, even though you’re incredibly uninformed. If I said “All men should have the insides of their penises scraped out because evil demons lived there,” and you said, “You know nothing about biology — and WTF are you talking about? Maybe if you had a penis you’d know that” would it be appropriate for me to say “Oh, well, SORRY I was born a WOMAN” as if that somehow made my opinion more valid? No.

    You want to make laws that would seriously limit the freedoms of an oppressed population to which you do not belong. You don’t know even basic facts of biology in order to support your position, which its clear is poorly thought out. You shouldn’t apologize for being a man; you should apologize for being an ignorant man.

    And there’s a remedy for that, although it will involve you shutting your mouth, opening your mind, and reading a LOT — starting, probably, with the tenets of critical thinking.

  147. “There’s data about when a fetus’s brain starts working. That’s when it starts living”

    This was poor phrasing on my part. I meant to say that consciousness is when a fetus becomes a person.

    It does, of course, start living immediately — which is not grounds for preserving it, as other things are also alive, such as insects and cancers.

  148. It is not in my Bible. LIke I said it is a Catholic tradition.

    What is? Not knowing what the Immaculate Conception refers to?

  149. I just don’t want my daughter out there with any boy who comes along, gets pregnant, cervical cancer, or dead and then regrets the rest of her life that she gave away her body for some femanist ideal that she controls her body

    (emphasis mine)

    Yes. How dare she, thinking she controls her own body like that, when Greg Almighty is here to control it for her.

  150. JustaGuy, it’s nice that your cousin’s experience was so positive. However, adoption can be really traumatic (much moreso, generally, than abortion, according to every study I’ve ever seen) and leave lifelong scars on both the mother, who can feel tremendous guilt and loss, and the child, who can feel tremendous abandonment. It’s a lot more difficult and complicated and potentially life-altering than it’s ever suggested when the concept is bandied around so blithely (you can always give it up for adoption! why don’t you consider adoption? adoption is the soluion to reducing abortions!), and not really something to be foisted on to someone else lightly.

    “is there some special female veil the fetus passes through to become live”

    Um. Yes. The birth canal? On behalf on a grateful nation and all of humanity, please stop trying to be funny (if that’s what you’re doing, I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt). It’s not working and these botched jokes just make you sound really really dumb.

  151. were so excited, oohing and aahing like the giddy, expectant parents that we were.

    The technician, however, was quiet, and I started to panic. We learned that the ultrasound indicated that the fetus had an open neural-tube defect, meaning that the spinal column had not closed properly.

    This quote illustrates perfectly why the “at least look at an ultrasound before getting an abortion” rule is so stupid and destructive. Ultrasounds produce fuzzy pictures which are difficult to read unless you have training and experience in dealing with them. The writer of this article and her husband didn’t see anything wrong with a fetus that had hydrocephalus and a neural tube defect: two abnormalities that are very distinctive looking and easy to identify on ultrasound–if you know what you’re looking for. If you don’t then it’s basically a Rochschah test in which you can see what you want to see. And gives no information useful toward deciding whether an abortion is a good idea or not at all.

  152. Instinct tell most people that it is a baby. Why would you talk and sing and rub a zygote.”

    Actually, I’ve never met anyone who sings to and rubs a zygote. A fetus, yes, maybe even an embryo but not a zygote. The zygote stage only lasts two weeks and very few women even know that they are pregnant that soon. Apart from the issues of projection and personification, which obviously come into play later on.

    There’s data about when a fetus’s brain starts working.

    There is no cortical (ie the “thinking brain”, the part of the brain that is developed in mammals, particularly humans, and almost absent in reptiles) activity at all during the first trimester, for the very good reason that the cortex hasn’t formed yet. There is some soft evidence of early cortical activity in the third trimester (7-9th months, really), but it is quite soft. There is also reason to suspect that the real cortical activity and first conscious thoughts can’t occur until after birth because there is not much oxygen available in utero and the cortex works only very poorly under low oxygen conditions. Think about what happens to a pilot in an airplane that loses pressure and who doesn’t have emergency oxygen available: she’s unconscious in seconds.

  153. “And that would be? Mary. So she was forced to carry God’s son? Are you sayin that or am I losing it?”

    Actually, Greg, mythology is steeped in divine births that resulted from a rape of a woman by a god, or else in births in which a woman’s body is blandly used as a vessel and she is then discarded. In many of these myths and stories, including the modern Christian, Buddhist, etc. ones which are descendants of more ancient lore populated by more anthropomorphic gods, given an extraordinarily limited understanding of or sympathy towards women, “seduced” and “raped” are in fact two roughly equatable terms.

    Sometimes, the point is merely to convey that the birth is divine, and no mention is made of virginity in any capacity. As we approach the peculiar sexual obsessions of some more modern religions, or their most direct roots, however, we begin to find accounts of rape in which the rapist god “restores” his victim’s “virginity” (i.e., her hymen). The birth of Jesus is most likely a descendant of one of these myths.

    Even under a literalist interpretation of the bible, in which no other mythologies have played a part in the development of Christianity, however, a patriarchal figure who may choose to freely impregnate a woman without her consent certainly sounds like a rapist to me.

  154. tigtog… I don’t know about you but my family includes more than 1 cousin. My family has had some unique situations come up over the years and all were handled differently by different cousins. There is a reason we have 6 generations alive right now… well a couple actually.

    1. My great-grandmother is 103.
    2. Lots of younger family members having children way too early.

    As for the rest of the comments… I’ll respond after I’ve read them all if any require a response.

  155. Absolutely Dianne… When Kyle was diagnosed, I had no idea. I thought he was fine, I saw a heartbeat, a spine, all of the major things you look for during an ultrasound. Yet, his intestines were outside of his body, which is very easy to pick up on an ultrasound by a trained person, but I never saw it. He had scoliosis, but I couldn’t tell. He had a hole in his heart, I didn’t see it. I get as excited as the next person about seeing an ultrasound, but that really taught me how important it is to remember that they are medical tools, NOT a warm fuzzy thing for expectant parents.

  156. a patriarchal figure who may choose to freely impregnate a woman without her consent certainly sounds like a rapist to me.

    Eew, Riley, thanks for putting the nail in the coffin of my christianity (what very little of it is left).

  157. Even under a literalist interpretation of the bible, in which no other mythologies have played a part in the development of Christianity, however, a patriarchal figure who may choose to freely impregnate a woman without her consent certainly sounds like a rapist to me.

    Actually, if I recall, Mary did consent. Kinda.

    True, when the angel appeared to her, he was making an announcement and not a request, but the announcement was about future events: “you will conceive” “The Holy Spirit will come upon you” “the power of the Most High will overshadow you”, etc. Then Mary says: “Behold, the handmaid of the Lord, let it be to me as you have said.”

    Of course, we can talk about gross imbalance of power, likelihood of disobeying a direct order from God, divine assholishness of commanding instead of asking that she bear His child (not that such behavior was any different from what the readers of the time would have expected from a mortal man), but as far a I can tell from the text, she didn’t actually become pregnant until she agreed to.

    Ugh. I just wrote something that might help Greg a little. I feel dirty. Sorry all.

  158. Can we please drop the blithe praising of the adoption option, and the assumptions that it is always better? I know women who had to take that route, and it damn near destroyed them. It is NOT like giving away a pair of shoes, and it is beyond callous, selfish, and cold to expect a woman or girl to go through forty weeks of pregnancy and the trauma of giving her child up.

    I hear a lot about the alleged “post-abortion syndrome” but nothing about the trauma and pain of surrendering your children to adoption.

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