In which Kos deigns to enlighten the Sanctimonious Women’s Studies Set about something he hasn’t bothered to research April 12, 2007 zuzu Shorter Kos: She was asking for death threats, which she probably made up. Via Jessica.
I hope to see this on many other blogs today, and possibly open a dialogue of how women/feminist issues are under-represented… yes even on the progressive liberal side.
Christ, why is this guy still one of the standard-bearers of American liberalism? Maybe if we stop paying attention to him, he’ll go away?
I gave up reading the Daily Kos ages ago because it wasn’t a place that generated much thoughtful writing, and it had the psychic odor of a boys locker room. I followed the link this time to find that things haven’t improved – preconceptions dominate and there is no reason to research an issue (or to believe what a woman reports in their life if it differs from what the boys want to here), particularly when the boys have so little difference in their views. Almost a ‘Free Republic’ for the left (though I hope nothing on the left ever gets that bad). Thank god for Feministe, Feministing and Pandagon, where the posts have thought behind them and the comments add value to the discussion.
Surprised? No. Bored and impatient with him? Hell, yes. Is there any major figure out there will less empathy than Kos?
Shorter Kos: the whining bitch had the death threats and the noose with the panties coming, . I think this one ought to be considered Kos’ Don Imus moment. While I would be tempted to give him a pass on account of his exhaustion from just becoming a Dad again, the issue is too serious. This was not a quick-dash comment, but a front-page story, designed to humiliate a victim. Kos needs to bleed for this one, sad to say.
Thank you! This seems to be so common among the “liberal” political blogs, and I’m absolutely tired of it. Thank you!
My favorite part of the thread was when the guys literally got into a “my dick is bigger than yours” contest.
I don’t read this site very much, but I read about the instances of creepy stalkers following and taking pictures, etc, (RE: the law forum, maybe?) and I was absolutely appalled to see such tripe on Kos. No readership or dollars from me.
I am a relatively new reader of Kos, and I’ve found some great blogs off his site. I’m not as fluent in the nuances of him or his site as others may be. What bothers me the most, is that he will probably apologize for his statements, without addressing why he jumped to the conclusion that she was just over-reacting in the first place… crazy women. Secondly, several of the comments take him to task about his dismissive comments… stating that she was a tech blogger, or what if it was his wife or daughter. I’m sorry, but that is just as bad as saying she’s a sex blogger… so she had it coming. Damn, maybe she shouldn’t have worn that skirt… It’s not okay to threaten any woman the way that she was. Period.
Why on earth did he include an example of his own hardly comparable hate mail? Like, how is this all about him? There’s a formula here, isn’t there? Woman: I got multiple, specific, sexualised death threats that were sufficiently credible to concern the police. Man: Someone wrote to me and wished that all liberals would die, and you didn’t catch me whining about it! Why don’t you shut up and stop whining? Be thick-skinned like me! See also: Woman: Women earn 77 cents on the male dollar. Man: Men have to pay for dinner and dating, but we don’t complain! Except just now, of course. Life isn’t fair. Deal with it. Woman: Women have to live with the threat of rape. Man: Men have to deal with the threat of being suspected rapists! THAT’S WORSE! So stop whining about rape, it really hurts my feelings. Patriarchy’s brave little soldiers! Awww!
I stopped reading Kos years ago, right around the time he suggested that “women’s issues” were somehow less important than the real problems facing the Democratic Party. I’m not surprised, but I am currently feeling pretty disappointed in how our side treats half the goddamned electorate. Sadly, No! is on my daily reading list… and this morning, I came across this. To sum up, TBogg made a stupid, racist, misogynist comment; Little Green Footballs called him on it; the S,N! folks jumped into to defend TBogg. I seem to be the only semi-regular commenter there who gets how unfunny and unworthy of progressives this is. What the hell is wrong with our guys? This isn’t exactly rocket science: women are people. Writing off women as unimportant is exactly the same as the conservative trick of writing off everyone who’s not a rich, white conservative–the only difference is scale.
Why on earth did he include an example of his own hardly comparable hate mail? Like, how is this all about him? I thought that was weird, too. “Sure, Kathy got death threats, people posting her home address and social security number, and pornographic Photoshopped pictures of herself, but somebody once told me that they wished that all liberals would die, so it’s the same thing!” Also, I wish I could slap each and every guy there who said the problem was that she “gave in” by shutting down her blog. You try getting death threats and people setting up websites to taunt you for about a year and see how long you hold out.
Mark Gisleson has been advocating that the net close ranks and comment often and graphically about Markos’ small penis size. I’m not sure that’s right–but unless Markos boards the clue train, it may be what we have to do.
To sum up, TBogg made a stupid, racist, misogynist comment; Little Green Footballs called him on it; the S,N! folks jumped into to defend TBogg. I seem to be the only semi-regular commenter there who gets how unfunny and unworthy of progressives this is. I’ll defend TBogg, though differently than S,N! does. LGF was desperate to find evidence that a liberal is racist, and they leaped on a throwaway joke at the end of the post that’s more about Condi’s suspected affair with W than it is about her race. I kinda suspect it’s the affair joke that really set LGF off, but if Condi doesn’t want those rumors out there, she shouldn’t refer to W as “my husband” at public events.
I think his comments here are basically stupid and destructive because they trivialize threats. He’s probably right that a blogger code of conduct will be unlikely to stop some of the really badly intentioned people out there. It would take ongoing, creative collaboration among bloggers to really deeply imbue the medium with a sense of the unacceptability of threatening or harassing behavior. … Also, unless I misread the piece, he didn’t actually suggest she made anything up.
I had the honor of driving Kos when he came to Minneapolis to promote Crashing the Gates. I think very highly of this guy or I wouldn’t be trying to start a meme about his penis. I also think the new baby is very distracting, and he should refrain from posting about things he’s not up to speed on. Googlebombs are the perfect way to get Markos’s attention, and the fact that this one was started by a guy who’s very supportive of Daily Kos should keep this “spanking” from becoming yet another “uppity womyn bloggers” thing. He owes Sierra an apology, but I doubt we’ll see a meaningful one anytime soon given the priorities of having a new born in the house. But the Kossacks will notice, and their concerns will most certainly reach Kos, and in a meaningful way. “Markos Moulitsas has a very tiny, shriveled, disease-ridden penis.” Not a pretty meme, but pretty doesn’t cut through the fog of sloppy posting very well, and, in defense of this meme, it’s not eliminationist like a lot of what Sierra has had to put up with.
I’m not sure I see the problem with what he posted. He was reacting to her call for a “code of conduct” for bloggers. As if that would actually stop deranged idiots from being deranged idiots. Read the BBC news article to which he links, and from which he’s apparently drawing his conclusion. There’s nothing in there about most of the things the commenters here report (pornographic images, posted addresses and SSN) and in fact the article directly contradicts one of the claims made (the death threats apparently started 4 weeks, not a year ago). Based on the available evidence, I don’t think there’s enough for a conviction.
Sorry, I don’t see where you get justification for the “she probably made up” part of your characterization. I’ll reiterate here what I commented somewhere else: I gotta say, I agree w/ Kos. This is my 25th year being involved in online discourse (first usenet post Dec, 1982) and “death threats” are just part of the territory. I’m sure there are 100s of sociology papers investigating why internet communication seems to be conducive to that sort of behavior. There are laws against such behavior, and law enforcement agencies to enforce the laws. Yes, such threats are upsetting. But an overwhelming percentage of those who make them are just cowardly blowhards. And if you change your behavior in response to them, the terrorists have won. Refer it to your local police department and go about your life.
Kos is a smacked ass. I find it amazing how he can take Kathy’s experience, minimize it and make all about him.
While you folks are criticizing Kos and TBogg and SN, could you do us all a favor? Please create a table that shows just what sort of people can make what sort of comments or what sort of jokes about what sort of people under what sort of circumstances. Once you’re done with that, I think society will be much better off as we see a lot of this destructive hateful speech and thought disappear. Thank you
Disgusting. I’m so tired of “progressive” misogynists like ‘Kos and Olbermann getting a free pass on this kind of shit. I hope this enlightens some of his readers, especially his female readers, as to the degree of his ass-hattery.
Based on the available evidence, I don’t think there’s enough for a conviction. You haven’t seen all the evidence. She said she wasn’t publishing a number of the threats, but that she had shown them to the police. Sorry, I don’t see where you get justification for the “she probably made up” part of your characterization. Missed the scare quotes, did we? There are laws against such behavior, and law enforcement agencies to enforce the laws. Yes, such threats are upsetting. But an overwhelming percentage of those who make them are just cowardly blowhards. And if you change your behavior in response to them, the terrorists have won. Refer it to your local police department and go about your life. Ask Melissa McEwan about that. After Bill Donohue went after her, people showed up at her house. Blocked her driveway and knocked on her fucking door. And as far as I know, her address wasn’t actually published; someone just took the initiative to find it out. Kathy Sierra’s address was published. What possible reason is there to do that if there’s not an implied threat of someone actually showing up?
Future Kos, after some blogger gets attacked: It’s her own damned fault for not taking those email threats seriously and going to the police.
Sigh… a usually very progressive blog that I read had a similar take on this–citing the NYT article and then saying that anyone who agrees to this code of conduct is (paraphrasing) “emotionally immature, mentally undeveloped, and unable to deal with bad ideas.” It was also called “Orwellian.” Somehow, the exact details of all the cases cited in the article and the fact that it is voluntary and being enacted on an individual basis with no government involvement was just kind of ignored. It just amazes me how much ordinarily very progressive people suddenly whip out the “get a thicker skin” argument whenever someone is attacked like Kathy Sierra was. It’s utter BS. Please create a table that shows just what sort of people can make what sort of comments or what sort of jokes about what sort of people under what sort of circumstances. How about you just don’t be a jerk? The definition of a “jerk” is: Someone who makes malicious jokes about or otherwise causes harm to those who have less power and status than they do and/or are not able to fight back. Fill in your own damn table.
Oh, please don’t call me a concern troll. Before you make me an unperson and direct your two minute hate to my post, let me say, I vastly prefer crimethinker. Even though many women value the achievements the women’s movement has made, most are reluctant to call themselves a feminist outright. Just a quarter of women say they consider themselves a feminist; 70 percent do not. These numbers have changed little over the years. How has being society’s foremost thought police and speech police worked out for you?
Kos really is a knuckle-dragging idiot. I just submitted him to Democratic Underground’s Top Ten Conservative Idiots of the Weeks. Even though he’s not a conservative I think he deserves to be made an honorary one for his latest bout of blogger diahrea regarding Sierra.
Sorry, I don’t see where you get justification for the “she probably made up” part of your characterization. Kos writes: Most of the time, said “death threats” don’t even exist — evidenced by the fact that the crying bloggers and journalists always fail to produce said “death threats”. You don’t get how this implies that she’s making shit up?
How has being society’s foremost thought police and speech police worked out for you? This from a guy calling himself orwell? Yep. Called it. Concern troll. “You ladies are never going to advance your cause if you don’t suck up to the men.” Shoo, now.
I’m not sure I see the problem with what he posted. He was reacting to her call for a “code of conduct” for bloggers. As if that would actually stop deranged idiots from being deranged idiots. Read the BBC news article to which he links, and from which he’s apparently drawing his conclusion. There’s nothing in there about most of the things the commenters here report (pornographic images, posted addresses and SSN) and in fact the article directly contradicts one of the claims made (the death threats apparently started 4 weeks, not a year ago). Based on the available evidence, I don’t think there’s enough for a conviction. libdevil: The blogger “code of conduct” has been widely criticized by just about everyone, including those who spoke out in defense of Kathy Sierra. That’s not the issue. The problem is that he belittled Sierra and dismissed her valid concerns. The “if you can’t handle the heat, get out of the kitchen” line of thinking is obnoxious. Why should it be acceptable or expected for bloggers to receive death threats and hateful, sexualized attacks? Is that the kind of public space we want to inhabit? Further, Sierra’s no controversial, in-your-face political blogger who could expect to get hate mail. The woman writes a freaking tech blog for Christ’s sake. Too much of the commentary on these events has been smug, macho (masochistic?) “well I got hate mail and I wasn’t a whiny bitch about it” stuff that doesn’t address the real problem.
Very disheartening this. There were some brilliant female commenters back in the early days of Kos, many of whom were run off by the pie wars. This is a good step toward running off the rest. I can only hope that being the father of a daughter will bring him some enlightenment over the coming years.
Sigh… a usually very progressive blog that I read had a similar take on this–citing the NYT article and then saying that anyone who agrees to this code of conduct is (paraphrasing) “emotionally immature, mentally undeveloped, and unable to deal with bad ideas.” I don’t think a code of conduct is going to do much, either. But the solution is not to minimize and dismiss threats or tell the recipients (and, gosh, who are the recipients of sexualized violence?) that that’s just the way it is and you’re just going to have to have a thicker skin.
Oh, “orwell,” you should really call yourself “O’Brien”, you know. The straw-women, the projection, the yes, concern-trolling – please, your attempt at irony is pitiful.
It just amazes me how much ordinarily very progressive people suddenly whip out the “get a thicker skin” argument whenever someone is attacked like Kathy Sierra was. It’s utter BS. Yeah, nobody wants to own their own shit. I’m always surprised at how people will fight like ravening wolverines for their perceived right to say appalling, harrassing, unproductive, hateful, and often just plain incorrect things. If someone is offended or pissed off by something I did not intend to be incendiary, my first thought is often, “gee, I guess I didn’t get my point across very well, I should work on more specificity in my writing/speech, so it’s not prey to misunderstandings”, not “gee, why are you so offended? clearly you just don’t understand and you are horribly wrong and you should grow a thicker skin”. Oddly, what bothers me most about kos’ post is that he’s just factually incorrect about the whole Sierra situation.
How has being society’s foremost thought police and speech police worked out for you? Bwahahahaha! I love it. Kos is totally free to be a misogynist fuckwit, but Zuzu is so not free to criticize him for it ’cause that would make Zuzu an enemy of free speech. Nice logic. Have you ever actually read Orwell?
LGF was desperate to find evidence that a liberal is racist, and they leaped on a throwaway joke at the end of the post that’s more about Condi’s suspected affair with W than it is about her race. LGF’s overblown “Gotcha!” attitude aside, why make the throwaway joke at all? It’s not like Wolfowitz’s unethical conduct doesn’t stand on its own. As for orwell… How has being society’s foremost thought police and speech police worked out for you? Perhaps the reason so many women reject the label of “feminist” is that feminists are so often pilloried as shrill thought police? Just a thought.
I have have you? Yes, and in fact, Kos is totally free to be a misogynist fuckwit and Zuzu is totally free to call him on it. But look at this thread. “Kos needs to bleed” And exaggeration and misrepresentations of Kos’ speech — “bitch!” And then the attacks on TBogg and SN! all smack of the ThoughtPolice and crimethink and thoughtcrime and the need for TBogg and SN! and Kos to engage in crimestop. In the meantime, polls seem to show that women recognize the importance and the gains that feminism has brought us all, but they still don’t want to be associated with it. It’s because most people can smell bullshit a mile away. So yeah, I’ve read Orwell, you may wish to read it again, because no one is criticizing zuzu for making a critique, the criticism is over the content of her critiques (by her referring to this entire thread and the feministe in general.)
And exaggeration and misrepresentations of Kos’ speech — “bitch!” Oh, no! Not EXAGGERATION! Why, that’s unheard of! That’s worse than being the foremost thought police and speech police! So yeah, I’ve read Orwell, you may wish to read it again, because no one is criticizing zuzu for making a critique, the criticism is over the content of her critiques (by her referring to this entire thread and the feministe in general.) Let me guess: you’re one of the S,N! regulars who is still miffed about the Daffyd ab Hugh thing.
Fellow males: get a clue. This isn’t about Markos’ freedom of speech, it’s about his position as the most prominent lefty blogger on the planet. If Kos chooses to anger significant portions of the left, it only stands to reason that Daily Kos’s readership will decline and another blogger will take on that mantle. Markos is free to say whatever he likes, but if his beliefs estrange him from his readership, well, we’re free to go elsewhere for our news. Alpha dogs don’t pick themselves you know. Personally, I think he’ll review Sierra’s situation again, will realize that he was out of line, and that he’ll apologize. If not, I’ll take down my link to Daily Kos and will stop touting Yearly Kos.
Christ, why is this guy still one of the standard-bearers of American liberalism? You got me. Technorati still has him at over eleven thousand links. christ knows what he makes in ads per year.
But look at this thread. You’re reading an awful lot into a 15-word post. Albeit with an 18-word title. And I don’t write the comments, dear, except when I do. Commenter/blogger distinction, hear of it?
But so what? It’s not as if those cowards will actually act on their threats. What is he smoking? For fuck’s sake. well, i hope he’s right for his own sake.
o one is criticizing zuzu for making a critique, the criticism is over the content of her critiques ooh! i know this one! Who’s on First?
Oh, “orwell,” you should really call yourself “O’Brien”, you know. If i had a dime for every wanker who quoted Orwell in hilariously ironic/unconscious service of some smelly little orthodoxy, i’d have just a lot of dimes.
Please create a table that shows just what sort of people can make what sort of comments or what sort of jokes about what sort of people under what sort of circumstances. someone clearly missed ebogjohnson’s flowchart… we should really make sexist/homophobic/etc. versions thereof. his was really fucking funny though
LGF’s overblown “Gotcha!” attitude aside, why make the throwaway joke at all? It’s not like Wolfowitz’s unethical conduct doesn’t stand on its own. Republicans (Wolfowitz) getting their girlfriends promotions vs. Republicans (Bush) getting their (rumored) girlfriends promotions. It’s pretty much a 1:1 comparison of Wolfowitz vs. Bush.
What a complete fucking idiot. He missed the entire point and his writing is garbage. And it wasn’t Sierra who called for a “code of conduct;” that was Tim O’Reilly. And as written, I think O’Reilly’s proposal is awful in a lot of ways. But that’s not what Kos goes on about; no, it’s whining about what he presumes are bogus death threats. So, yeah; the factual incorrectness pisses me off a lot, too, because so many people are just going to believe what he said without doing their own research, because he’s Kos, and he wouldn’t be – couldn’t be – wrong, could he?!?! And he looks it up by reading one or two whole articles about it? Wow. Such impressive research. I’m sure it TOTALLY captured the WHOLE thing. I guess he missed how it mentioned, in one of those very articles he linked to, the police are involved. Yeah. That sounds like bogus threats to me. Complete fucking idiot. The more I hear from him, the more I wonder how the hell anyone thinks he’s got two brain cells to rub together. That post was so bad in so many ways. Kudos to Keez-R for the nomination of Kos for the DU’s Top Ten Conservative Idiots.
And then the attacks on TBogg and SN! all smack of the ThoughtPolice and crimethink and thoughtcrime and the need for TBogg and SN! and Kos to engage in crimestop. Uh-oh. We’ve got yet another “liberal” upset because we make him feel guilty for thinking that women are inferior. As I’ve said before, I’ve actually found this to be somewhat disassociated from the political spectrum. I’ve met conservatives and Libertarians who treat me as their equal, and I’ve met liberals who pat me on the head and tell me to go make them a sandwich while the men talk about “real issues.” Gosh, I have no idea where that stereotype of angry feminists could possibly have come from!
Playing devil’s advocate here… I think Markos, who admits to paying far less attention to the blogosphere of late (because of his new child), made the mistake of letting his feelings about a “blogger code of ethics” taint his assessment of the original controversy that inspired the calls for that code. He saw those magic words and, in a knee-jerk fashion, posted a strongly negative response. Unfortunately, he then went on to assess the original controversy. He stuck his foot in it by commenting on something he is not involved in and something he has only a passing knowledge of.
we should really make sexist/homophobic/etc. versions thereof. That’s right, you really should. But you also need to include: obesity (SN! issue) as well as religion (make sure you include scientology, mormons, jehovah’s witnesses) gender identification (include M2F) age national origin (include swedes, norwegians, italians, irish, canadians, new zealanders, japanese) military service and status mental abilities (include morons, idiots, crazies, village idiot) Maybe you should just go through Lenny Bruce and George Carlin and see who and what they make fun of. Then make your flowcharts, and that way we will all know who we can make fun of, why, and when. And we will be that much better prepared to prosecute Sadly, No!
christ knows what he makes in ads per year. Check out this chart, it shows what he makes for his Blogads. Looks like 400k/year for the premium spot, plus several hundred thousand more for the standard ads and the secondary slot. …And then the attacks on TBogg and SN! all smack of the ThoughtPolice and crimethink and thoughtcrime and the need for TBogg and SN! and Kos to engage in crimestop. There should be a version of Godwin’s Law for Orwellian comparisons.
Kudos to Keez-R for the nomination of Kos for the DU’s Top Ten Conservative Idiots. okay, when you’re an old-school online “liberal” and you’ve pissed off DU, i’d say you’ve officially jumped the shark.
(1) Secondly, several of the comments take him to task about his dismissive comments… stating that she was a tech blogger, or what if it was his wife or daughter. I’m sorry, but that is just as bad as saying she’s a sex blogger… so she had it coming. Damn, maybe she shouldn’t have worn that skirt… It’s not okay to threaten any woman the way that she was. Period -Those people were contradicting Kos’ claim that she wrote about “contraversial” subjects. (2) I noticed that some of Kos’ defenders responded to his critics’ who pointed out that he didn’t know what he was talking about by complaining that “now Kos’ can’t write about subjects he doesn’t know about?” (That’s another discussion, how much knowledge a blogger should have on a subject before writing about it.) They totally missed the point that he made up the facts of the story he was commenting on. Progressives like to criticize conservatives for making up their own facts on topics like global warning, Iraq, or EC- they need to recognize when one of their own is doing it. (3) Also, I noticed this going on re. the topic of sexual harassment in the early 90’s. Cases of sexual harassment would involve facts like men decorating a woman’s cubical with porn, asking her crude and graphic questions about her sex life, linking sexual favors to promotions, etc. Critics of women claiming sexual harassment wouldn’t discuss the specifics of what happened- they’d use a catch-all word like “courtship behavior” or say “these women are complaining about men giving them flowers.” (I specifically remember that “genius” woman who writes for Parade Magazine (Marilyn Vos Sant?) writing that last one.) I think the important thing is to not let critics characterize what happened- but emphasize the specific facts as much as possible.
And we will be that much better prepared to prosecute Sadly, No! Orwell, this is not going to be a thread to rehash that whole mishegoss. So take your whining about how the feminists are stepping on your fun by criticizing your choice of gendered insults elsewhere. We’re here to talk about Kos today. Mmkay?
Shankar, concerntroll is a neologism that just begs for inclusion in the newspeak dictionary. It fits all of the criteria of the Newspeak’s dictionary “B” words. I am not sure if it should be concerntroll or trollconcern. What are your thoughts?
(okay, sorry about that last post then, I was researching it and didn’t refresh soon enough.) +25 points to you for using “mishegoss” in a sentence, correctly.
Owell, I think the idea of dismissing people as concern trolls is bullshit, too. I’ve been called one before, also. I don’t think your argument should be dismissed because you are a concern troll. I think your argument should be dismissed because it is ridiculous. I imagine, from your chosen handle, that you think Orwell is a pretty smart guy. I’d agree. But I think his work–especially 1984–has been made utterly useless as a political lesson, because people–like you–are utterly unable to discern the different between Orwellian thought control and criticism. Orwellian thought control is impossible without coercion. Zuzu & Co. do not advocate coercion in this circumstance. Therefore, your criticism, despite being laden with catchy snippets from the Newspeak dictionary, is inoperative.
Shankar, concerntroll is a neologism that just begs for inclusion in the newspeak dictionary. You do realize that Feministe did not invent the word, don’t you? Funnily enough, the first Google hit for “concern troll” is a dKosopedia entry.
He stuck his foot in it by commenting on something he is not involved in and something he has only a passing knowledge of. As may well be. Which is why he shouldn’t have written it without, you know, getting more than just a passing knowledge of it. I’ll agree with Mark above–I think that Markos will apologize for this. But if not–well, I’m sick of how women are told their experiences aren’t that important, and I’m not a woman. I can only imagine how much sicker I’d be if I was. Kos owes Kathy (and Melissa, and Amanda, and Jill, and dozens more) an apology.
The predictable outcome of all this is that feminist sites with mostly women bloggers will justifiably flog Kos with this, but nary but a few men, and certainly no A-listers (other than said feminist blogs) will pick up the stick. It’s the same old-same old we bloggers of color deal with when some purportedly liberal blogger puts up Lieberman or Blitzer in blackface or as a geisha, or calls American Indian oversensitive whiners when their alumni mascot is forcibly retired, or, well, I could go on for many bytes. It’s not just about calling Kos on it – but the people who tacitly lend their approval by remaining silent. Their justification, of course, is that they’re remaining “above” it all, since, of course, it’s just a “cat-fight”. So, yes, let’s all vent today, maybe tomorrow, about Kos’ misogyny, which we’ve of course known about for years. But nothing’s going to change unless, like with Imus, we force others to confront Kos’ attitude. If you don’t want to hurt the feelings of your sometime blogger allies, then go right to Kos’ bottom-line – his advertisers and the politicians who use his site to reach potential volunteers and contributors. Send them copies of Markos’ post, and the responses (many of which, even at dKos, were very insightful.)
Something that has not been mentioned…The problem with low-threshhold participation is that there is no social contract. People with computers who technoblog (who are the people we’re discussing initially) are unlikely to really absorb the reality of violent personal threat and abuse, partially because many of them have been shielded from it by the culture, and because many of them are men, who are less likely to encounter this kind of sexual and invasive threat as a part of daily life. Sorry guys, but it’s true. The tendency to underestimate the threat level is a natural and regrettable result, as is the issue of territoriality and the more global issue of censorship. I like anarchy. If we weren’t poo-flinging, baby-eating monkeys at heart it’d be great. Very few monsters view themselves as monstrous, but the attacks (and yeah, that’s what they were) on Kathy Sierra make it clear that there a criminal abuse issue that is stepping across into the manipulable physical world, and that is what must be addressed.
Oh, please don’t call me a concern troll. Cope. We call ’em as we see ’em. I love the idiots who go on and on about TEH THOUGHT POLICE!!!1!! Since, you know, agreeing to standards of conduct is the exact same thing as the government censoring people. It’s just like that. And if you don’t agree, you have no right to say so, because you’re advocating censorship!1! And bleat on and on about “mob justice” when in reality, it was a mob of people going after Sierra. Nice attempt at a turnaround though. Bonus points for equating calling people on their shit to a lynching, since ZOMG! it’s like totally the same thing as killing Black people in the Jim Crow South! Srsly!!!!1!! (And yeah, I saw that rhetoric, and was accused of being part of a lynch mob for having the gall to say that threatening someone is fucked up.) I don’t think these idiots have even a nodding acquaintance with logic. As for Kos, he proved himself completely irrelevant ages ago.
So why do I have the Terrence and Phillip song “Uncle Fucka” running through my head when I read orwell’s posts? Somebody tell me!
There should be a version of Godwin’s Law for Orwellian comparisons. that’s the problem with godwin’s law – like the law of averages or the law of gravity, it’s so damn hard to enforce.
Shankar Gupta: Just try < … the < symbol tells the browser that some HTML tag is coming and not to print anything between the < and > symbols. Thus by typing <3 it shows up as <3.
Shankar, if you see a heart here (this is an experiment), you make it by using no spaces when you type — & hearts ; IOW, start with & finish with ; and close all the spaces. ♥ It worked! Let’s see if I can make it bigger by using <font size=”+2″> followed by </font> ♥ Yay! And, what the hay, let’s surround it with <center> followed by </center> ♥ StarWatcher proudly buffs fingernails I’m so good!
I just remember the vitriol he spewed against the feminists on his blog when they objected to some of the objectifying ads he was selecting to run. He really does think his shit doesn’t stink. He’s Kos, he’s the voice of liberal males, he is above reproach in all things progressive. Whatever, Kos. Frathouse liberalism is soooo 1997.
Well, uh… the sizing and centering worked in the preview. Why not in real? Oh, well, at least the heart came through.
I love his site and the moderators he’s chosen to handle the site … but I get the feeling that if he was one of my coworkers, I’d have shoved him down an elevator shaft by now. The stupidest part of all that is that he thought she was a good example to use of why a Blogger Ethics Council isn’t necessary. Instead, he makes himself an example of why a Blogger Knowledgability Test might be neccessary.
What the hell is wrong with our guys? This isn’t exactly rocket science: women are people. Writing off women as unimportant is exactly the same as the conservative trick of writing off everyone who’s not a rich, white conservative–the only difference is scale. Only thing I’d say to that is … what if you’re not writing off women as unimportant, so much as writing off that one particular person, who happens to be a woman? I mean, I’m not an expert on foreign policy, but isn’t Condi just about the most impotent member of Bush’s cabinet? Hasn’t her department been overruled by Cheney or Rumsfeld on almost every occasion she’s even attempted diplomacy? And wasn’t the previous holder of that same office Colin Powell (also black) and didn’t he go through the same thing? I thought the name-calling was crass, but I didn’t get a woman-hater or racist vibe from it, so much as a failed attempt to show the disdain BushCo directs at their own SecState?
Can somebody please design a Scoop-like site that would take the traffic from Kos’s right-hand panes? Those diaries are the only reason people click through, and even still, it’s obvious the promotion algorithm is half-assed. This is a simple, cheap mission for a young liberal entrepreneur: develop a clear, simple pro-Democrat mission statement, and design a next-generation version of Kos’s format.
So would Femineste or another big blog be willing to have a petition for Kos where we submit our blog posts? I’ve seen quite a few go up all ready, and plenty more that frankly not many people will know about. I think it should be noted how many people are offended that kind of post is up at a liberal blog. Or is that wishful thinking?
i think a delinking/mocking campaign would be more effective. his currency is in traffic; hit him where it hurts. if possible, at his size.
for that matter: why the fuck do people keep their diaries on his site? what do they get from it that they wouldn’t by just opening up a free blog account?
Only thing I’d say to that is … what if you’re not writing off women as unimportant, so much as writing off that one particular person, who happens to be a woman? What if you’ve repeatedly and nastily written off women’s issues as “unimportant”, because you know that your fans will rush to your defense? Kos is part of a long and hallowed tradition of “progressive” men getting their tighty-whities in a knot when teh bitches get out of line.
belledame: they get a large large readership and commentorship. Way bigger than they’d get just posting on their own personal blogs alone. I’ve seen interesting posts on group blogs that were cross-posted at the author’s personal blog, and gone over to the personal blogs to look around– the personal counterparts invariably have less traffic and fewer comments in the personal posts.
Okay, I’ll say it. It has been brought to my attention by a few commenters here that Kos is terribly distracted because he has a new baby, and therefore couldn’t possibly mean to come across as a clueless, sexist asshole. Now, I haven’t had a baby of my own in the house for about three years, but I distinctly remember blogging and posting on message boards when my youngest was a newborn. Sometimes, I’d breastfeed him with one hand and type with the other. And yet, somehow, I managed to refrain from making sexist, racist, or anti-semitic comments. I also managed not to dismiss or mock anyone’s genuine fears for their safety out of hand. It could be because that sort of hostile attitude toward people who are Not Me isn’t in my general makeup, just waiting to jump out the second I have low biorhythms. Of course, I’m female, so having a newborn doesn’t take nearly as great a toll on me as it does on a man, so what do I know?
Oh, what horseshit: “He’s just posting like this because he’s got a newborn and is TOTALLY STRESSED.” Yeah, whatever. I’ve taken care of *two* newborns, thankyouverymuch (tho not both at once), and trust me, if there are two gr’ups there taking care of the baby, ONE of them will have time to dash off a quick apology for being an asshole on their blog. Especially if they’re the dad. No sympathy here. None whatsoever.
Of course, I’m female, so having a newborn doesn’t take nearly as great a toll on me as it does on a man, so what do I know? Bwahahahahahhaa. That’s exactly what those defender/enablers are taking as a given, too: that even just having the baby around is a serious strain on the poor not-made-for-babies menz – which seems to operate pretty independently of the particular dad’s level of involvement, conveniently giving absolutely no credit to dads who carry equal parenting weight (who, y’know, deserve no credit for nonsense like taking on women’s work).
I’m suddenly even more embarrassed than I was before at the fact that, last year, when a middle-aged centrist-liberal upper-class white guy asked me for recommendations to political blogs, I sent him toward Kos and Atrios. I thought he wouldn’t be up for the stuff I actually read, but…
… I just started reading Kos this month, but if this is what is “par for the course” with them… I think I’ll stop before my worldview is dimmed to the point where I have no hope for humanity at all.
I saw a similar dismissal of Kathy Sierra at (oh dear) Something Awful, in which Kyanka basically elided the whole sexism aspect of the story, and, similarly, concluded that death threats are something all internet users are going to have to contend with regardless of gender. Which is a little odd, since he admits that, of late, the majority of death threats he’s received aren’t against him, but rather against his two year-old daughter. Hmm…
Well, uh… the sizing and centering worked in the preview. Why not in real? Let me ask – where did you learn to type HTML entities where you didn’t also learn that it’s unwise to run an SQL-based backend that doesn’t strip HTML for safety’s sake? It works in preview because the preview is a bit of dynamic HTML that runs your literal text through the page engine. It doesn’t work in post because the PHP strips most of the HTML so that there’s no danger of a post breaking the whole page – or worse, running unauthorized code through the browsers of everybody who’s reading and (for instance) grabbing the credit card data from all of their cookies. I’m just guessing, anyway. I don’t work here or anything (but I assume Feministe runs on some kind of LAMP setup.)
I saw a similar dismissal of Kathy Sierra at (oh dear) Something Awful, in which Kyanka basically elided the whole sexism aspect of the story, and, similarly, concluded that death threats are something all internet users are going to have to contend with regardless of gender. Which is a little odd, since he admits that, of late, the majority of death threats he’s received aren’t against him, but rather against his two year-old daughter. I read a takedown of that ( ) and that was the thing that struck me most, too. That his DAUGHTER was getting threats and it apparently did not set off any “Hm, I wonder why they’re going after her,” bells in his head.
I read a takedown of that ( ) and that was the thing that struck me most, too. That his DAUGHTER was getting threats and it apparently did not set off any “Hm, I wonder why they’re going after her,” bells in his head. i bin sayin’. people like that, the light doesn’t dawn when you go, “but what if it was your wife/granny/daughter?” because those are still OTHER PEOPLE, see. does not compute. -whirrrrr-
gotta love the “but the internests are full of crazy people saying crazy things! only stupid people take them seriously!” argument look, my dear wee Kossacks – the kinds of threats that Kathy Sierra, Amanda, Shakes, Jill, etc. have all been talking about are more accurately described as “crazy ass sexual harrassment” than “crazy people making anonymous threats”. (as they keep fricking pointing out themselves) There is a difference between the crazy person on the street who shouts at everybody and nobody – and the violent obscenities about a particular student that have been carved into the stalls in the boys locker room by a variety of individuals. The difference being that the latter is vastly more likely to result in serious harm coming to the person being threatened. Despite your patronizing assurances otherwise, you do not have more experience with this than we do. We are not crazy or silly or stupid for taking such threats seriously. A great number of us have learned the hard way what can happen when we don’t. Dana – a thousand “thank you”s ’cause you gotta also love all the times when stuff that’s usually thrown in our faces to show that women are more emotional, unstable, and riskier than men is then turned around and used as an excuse for the most idiotic behavior on their part. I bitched to my brother about something Matt Stoller said a while back * and his response was “well, he just broke up with his girlfriend.” Needless to say I was all “WTF? And that excuse would fly for the girlfriend? Without making her look like another example of why women can’t? And wtf does that have to do with anything anyway? How would a recent breakup affect his views on the nature of democracy and progressive action?” *”Not everybody has to be part of that conversation… for the most part, people….will go on with their lives knowing that good people are making good decisions and policies on their behalf.”
So this morning we find out that in the Imus froufrou, the TEAM has been receiving death threats and hate mail since Imus made his comment. Surprise, surprise! Should they just develop a thick-skin? Should this be the inevitable result for being alive and female? NO, Kos needs to get a clue and he needs to makes sure his posters and commenters and lurkers get it too. People can’t thrive on being influential and not take responsibilty for what their influence causes.
Now, I haven’t had a baby of my own in the house for about three years, but I distinctly remember blogging and posting on message boards when my youngest was a newborn. Sometimes, I’d breastfeed him with one hand and type with the other. And yet, somehow, I managed to refrain from making sexist, racist, or anti-semitic comments. I also managed not to dismiss or mock anyone’s genuine fears for their safety out of hand. Flea and Dana: Word. Tina
Kos helped put the blogesphere on the map and for that I’m grateful. But he’s past his prime now, I don’t think he’s necessarily moving right so much as many of his readers are moving left. He could have made this point about the code of conduct in a thousand different ways, I actually think he was deliberately being provocative. I think he wanted to insult women, maybe because he sees feminism as a “special interest” group that’s interfering with the his great vision of a Blue America (one in which he’ll have a nice cozy spot at the table with the big boys). The message of the piece seemed to be “Hey, bitches, you want to play with us tough guys you better shut up and grow some big balls like me, or you should just fuck-off and leave the blogging to us real men!” Anyway, there’s a line in Bonnie & Clyde that goes “Just cause this is the car we came in, doesn’t mean we have to leave in it.” Time to hitch on with a more progressive car than his. Thanks for helping to start this Kos, but clearly you ain’t gonna be the one to finish it. Welcome to the dustbin of history.
Chet — Let me ask – where did you learn to type HTML entities where you didn’t also learn that it’s unwise to run an SQL-based backend that doesn’t strip HTML for safety’s sake? I learned what very little HTML I know by being given the codes, and trying it, and it worked. “SQL-based backend that doesn’t strip HTML for safety’s sake” means absolutely nothing to me. I can push on the gas to make the car go, shift into the appropriate gear when necessary, and push the brake to slow down and stop. Everything else I leave to my mechanic. Ditto with HTML. Different sites behave differently – [ and ] may or may not work; even < and > aren’t 100% certain. Things would be a lot easier if HTML / web actions were standardized, but it’s already grown too big to backtrack and implement that. *shrug* I wipe the egg off my face and move on.
Here is a chart for you it is simple and easy to remember: Stop being such an asshole. Making the same jokes you made in the 7th Grade, when you are an adult interacting with other adults, generally makes you an asshole. So just stop it. If you don’t we are well within our rights to call you an asshole. Contrary to what this adolescent “politically incoorect” popular culture might have told you that is not a worthy thing to be.
Here is a chart for you it is simple and easy to remember: Stop being such an asshole. Making the same jokes you made in the 7th Grade, when you are an adult interacting with other adults, generally makes you an asshole. So just stop it. If you don’t we are well within our rights to call you an asshole. -ovation-
Kos helped put the blogesphere on the map FYI Ann Coulter and other routinely cited blogstars did that actually – being “put on the map” means “being put on the map by FOX”, and anything FOX notices is gonna suck or blow dick cheney, usually both. Kos is little more than a glorified BBS moderator – and Dkos is his BBS.
libdevil: The blogger “code of conduct” has been widely criticized by just about everyone, including those who spoke out in defense of Kathy Sierra. That’s not the issue. The problem is that he belittled Sierra and dismissed her valid concerns. The “if you can’t handle the heat, get out of the kitchen” line of thinking is obnoxious. Why should it be acceptable or expected for bloggers to receive death threats and hateful, sexualized attacks? Is that the kind of public space we want to inhabit? Further, Sierra’s no controversial, in-your-face political blogger who could expect to get hate mail. The woman writes a freaking tech blog for Christ’s sake. Too much of the commentary on these events has been smug, macho (masochistic?) “well I got hate mail and I wasn’t a whiny bitch about it” stuff that doesn’t address the real problem. Exactly. Christ. It’s like the difference between saying, “I think that VAWA will fail to prevent violence against women because…” and, “I think that VAWA isn’t necessary because most women lie about being raped and get all hysterical about the threat of rape. I got shoved by some drunk guy in a bar once. Suck it up, ladies!”
Without meaning AT ALL to equate racism and sexism, I wonder if the feminist-baiters, misogynist trolls, and others manifestly-bereft-of-clue types would understand the problem with the following: Unrepentant White Racist #1, circa 1920: What’s all this whining about lynching? UWR2: Tosh! Bunch of drivel! UWR1: I mean, they say they face this threat of violence that white people don’t face. Can’t be true — I’VE never felt threatened by lynching! Have YOU, Fellow White Person? UWR2: Not at all. Our white experience of relative safety disproves non-whites’ claims of raced-based violence. Impeccable logic. UWR1: And anyway, murder is ALREADY illegal, people. Hel-LO! They HAVE recourse — in the form a legal system that I know benefits ME, and so I’m pretty sure that means it’s fair for everybody. UWR2: How right you are. There’s no threat at all. Nothing even to talk about, really… why are they overreacting? UWR1: What they’re PROBABLY talking about – and I know this because my experience is universal – is just the normal everyday business of dealing with jerks. UWR2: Jerks, yes. Threats of lynching = jerkiness. UWR1: Well, I’ll tell you: I have to deal with jerks. You don’t see me complaining, do you? UWR2: Nope, you and I are paragons of dealing effectively with jerks. One needs to develop a thick skin, is all. UWR1: Exactly – a thick skin!! It’s an essential skill. And these people wonder why they’re not more successful!
The only hyper-sensitivity is from bigots who believe the very existence of women and girls is an offense on par with evil. We may “cry” about the real possibility of being savagely raped and/or killed by a man, which has been glamorized in mainstream film thanks to “torture porn,” but they have to content with the brutality of women hurting their feelings. Death threats targeting bloggers versus those targeting female tech blogger is the same as a crime versus a hate crime.
I learned what very little HTML I know by being given the codes, and trying it, and it worked. “SQL-based backend that doesn’t strip HTML for safety’s sake” means absolutely nothing to me. Wow, really? I apologize for my tone, I just really found it weird that you knew entity codes but didn’t know how blogs like WordPress work. I’ve been developing half-assed webpages for years now and I still have to look up entities in a book if I want to use them. People learn differently, I guess. I didn’t mean to shoot a bunch of jargon at you. Things would be a lot easier if HTML / web actions were standardized Well, HTML is standardized. Different blogging software, though, allows different HTML tags in posts. If they allowed every tag, you could make a post that disseminated malicious code to everybody that viewed your post. So they strip all HTML tags but a few exceptions (the style codes, basically.) Different blogs, different exceptions. Some strict software strips all the codes. It’d be easier to remember if everybody had the same standards, but with so many different, competing blog backends, that’s not likely to happen any time soon. Like I said sorry for not making sense. Back to your regularly scheduled topic!
Chet – I just really found it weird that you knew entity codes but didn’t know how blogs like WordPress work. If you mean codes for italics, etc – they never change. And I had a liking for “secret codes” as a kid; basic HTML plays into that same mindset. People learn differently, I guess. That’s it exactly. It’d be easier to remember if everybody had the same standards, but with so many different, competing blog backends, that’s not likely to happen any time soon. Yes, that’s what I meant. (Though I wouldn’t use those words, <g>) The HTML itself is standardized, but the uses that are allowed are not. And I visit so many different blogs – with different “backends” – that I haven’t yet got a handle on what works where. Like I said sorry for not making sense. Not a problem; at least now I know there’s something else out there. Old dogs learn slower, but we do learn. One of these days, I’ll get it all figured out, but I find that I don’t learn something new until I, personally, feel the need to use the information. Till then, as a 55-year-old non-techie, I’m quite pleased with myself. When I went to college, an electric typewriter was hot stuff; I’ve come a long way, baby!