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The Backlash Against the Edwards Bloggers

witch
If I had known there was going to be a witch hunt, I would have ridden in on my good broomstick.

UPDATE: Because I’m a moron, I forgot the most important part of the post: Contact the Edwards campaign and voice your support of Amanda and Melissa. Do it now.


As Zuzu says,
the conservative attacks on Amanda and Melissa have gone way too far. It is amusing, though, to see people who support interning American citizens and people who are loud-mouthed anti-Semitic bigots complaining about Amanda’s supposed hostility towards Constitutional rights and religion.

One thing is clear: The people who have problems with Amanda and Melissa’s employment are not moderates. They are among the most hateful, foaming-at-the-mouth, low-IQ, bottom-feeding maggots in this country. They are people who openly support hate groups. These are not people who are going to vote for any Democrat, or who Democratic candidates should be taking seriously.

So let’s clarify a few things. First, the Duke case. Half-witted conservative bloggers ’round the sphere have been accusing Amanda of violating the civil/Constitutional rights of the Duke lacrosse players who were accused of rape. They point to this paragraph of Amanda’s as evidence of her supposed harassment of these fine young men:

In the meantime, I’ve been sort of casually listening to CNN blaring throughout the waiting area and good f*** god is that channel pure evil. For awhile, I had to listen to how the poor dear lacrosse players at Duke are being persecuted just because they held someone down and f*** her against her will—not rape, of course, because the charges have been thrown out. Can’t a few white boys sexually assault a black woman anymore without people getting all wound up about it? So unfair.


Conservative bloggers are quick to note the “innocent until proven guilty” standard as evidence that Amanda has done something horribly wrong here. Newsflash, kiddies: Amanda is not a court of law. A stunning revelation, I know. Individual citizens can say that they believe someone accused of a crime is guilty without violating the accused’s Constitutional rights.

Now, I have a particular bias when it comes to these issues, not only as a feminist who recognizes that women who report being sexually assaulted should be believed just as automatically as people who report being robbed or otherwise victimized, but as a liberal law student who believes very strongly in the rights of the accused, and as the daughter of a criminal defense attorney. Had the accused lacrosse players been given an unfair trial, or had their Constitutional rights violated, or been, say, detained indefinitely, I’d be the first one raising hell — even if I thought they were guilty. But the Duke men did not have their rights violated by Amanda or the courts or anyone else. Is there an argument to be made that charging the men was a political move? Yeah. I don’t buy it, but it can certainly be made. Is there an argument to be made that the Duke lacrosse players are innocent? Well yeah, obviously, since the charges were dropped.

The Duke case caused a national media frenzy. We all weighed in. I stand by my earlier comments that the case does raise important issues about race, class and privilege — after all, according to the facts on which we all agree, a mostly white team of men who attend an elite college paid for a black woman, who was a low-income student at a less elite local school, to strip for their entertainment. The next night, one member of the lacrosse team sent out a deeply disturbing email, using his Duke student email account, referring to the strippers at “bitches” and fantasizing about killing them, “cutting off their skin,” and ejaculating in his Duke-issued spandex.

Does that make him guilty of rape? Of course not. But it does make him a sick individual who is well worth criticism. It does contribute to an over-all view of Duke lacrosse players as misogynist assholes who eroticize sexual violence. I’m sure it informed Amanda’s opinion that the lacrosse players are privileged white boys who victimized a black woman.

And for all the conservative hemming and hawing over Amanda’s characterization of the lacrosse players, I still haven’t heard any of them defend the woman against right-wing slander. Has she recanted? Has it been proven that she wasn’t raped? Not as far as I know. What’s been shown is that the charges were dropped, and that there was insufficient evidence to prosecute the three arrested players. If we should “wait for the facts” before we assume the players’ guilt, shouldn’t we do the same before we say that the woman is:
A ho
A vindictive ghetto-fabulous slut-whore
A drunken slut-stripping whore
A woman who sluts herself out for a living
An old nigger whore
etc etc?

The conservative bloggers and commentators argue that Amanda is unfit for her position with the Edwards campaign because she made it obvious that she thought the Duke lacrosse players sexually assaulted the woman they hired to strip — or at the very least, that the woman who reported being raped was telling the truth. Those same conservative bloggers call the woman who reported the rape a liar. Well, geniuses, false reporting of a crime is a crime. A crime that the woman has not been found guilty of, and, as far as I can tell, hasn’t been charged with. In other words, their argument that bloggers should assume the innocence of the criminally accused — and the criminally un-accused — only applies when we’re talking about privileged white men accused of rape.

Pot, kettle. Kettle, pot. Talk amongst yourselves.

Amanda-related issue #2: The potty mouth. I really have nothing to say here, since I curse along with the best of ’em, and I’m of the opinion that hand-wringing over a swear word is pretty silly. But if a few f-words on a personal blog are enough to get a lady fired, then perhaps we should reconsider the employment prospects of our fine vice president.

Issue #3: Amanda and Shakes’ supposed anti-Catholic bias, as evidenced by the fact that they criticize the Catholic church for their regressive reproductive health policies. If Amanda and Melissa are anti-Catholic, then perhaps this organization should be qualified as a hate group.

Pathetically, even bloggers for the New York Times are jumping in — and linking to the looniest proto-fascists on the right, including Michelle “Intern the Arabs” Malkin. When people like Malkin pass for credible commentators, you know you’re in trouble.

Salon says that Amanda and Melissa have been fired. I haven’t seen this reported anywhere else, so I doubt its accuracy. But at the very least, the campaign does seem to be “reconsidering” their employment in the face of right-wing backlash.

Hiring Amanda and Melissa made me re-consider Edwards as a candidate, and pledge my early support to his campaign. He was, I thought, the candidate who represented my primary concerns — poverty, women’s rights, the war, the environment — and the candidate who purposely reached out to human rights advocates like Amanda and Melissa, and chose wisely when he asked them to join his staff. I hope he doesn’t make a decision that will make me reconsider my opinion of him. Because if a candidate isn’t even loyal to his own hand-picked staff, how can we expect him to be loyal to our interests?

And, not that Mr. Edwards cares, but should Amanda and Melissa’s employment with his campaign go the way of the Dodo, I’ll certainly be working extra hard to make sure that someone else takes the Democratic primary.


113 thoughts on The Backlash Against the Edwards Bloggers

  1. Jill, I couldn’t agree with you more. I just wrote to the Edwards campaign and also called them to voice my support for keeping both Amanda and Melissa. I agree: the Slate article looks unsubstantiated. I hope Edwards doesn’t do what so many other Dems have done, which is betray the potential for articulating and standing for liberal/progressive values for the (always or ultimately) failing strategy of trying to not offend. As you point out, these groups wouldn’t vote for Edwards. They’re just trying to sabotage him…as well as women’s voices and discussion of issues they don’t want broached.

  2. I think that it’s a bad idea to fire Amanda, and especially Melissa, at this time. However, I’m going to admit that when I first heard Edwards had hired Amanda, I thought “what is he thinking?”

    Don’t get me wrong. I love Amanda’s writing at Pandagon. It’s smart, funny, well-written, passionate, and strong. It expresses strong opinions and holds back nothing. At Pandagon, Amanda doesn’t pull her punches.

    And all I could think was that writing for a presidential candidate, she would have to dilute her writing. That she was going to lose the great style and panache, including frequent random references to anal sex, that we all love. And that someone was going to go into her archives and pick on the frequent use of the word fuck, on the sexual connotations, on her great language that is perfectly appropriate for a lefty blog but not quite right when it comes to close association with a presidential candidate.

    Oh, but you’re totally right about the “innocent until proven guilty” thing. That’s for courts, not for commentators! And thanks for pointing out the hypocrisy in their calling the complainant a liar.

  3. Using the Duke case against Amanda is beyond low – and I am speaking as someone who disagrees with her on this case.

    These people need to grow up.

  4. And, not that Mr. Edwards cares, but should Amanda and Melissa’s employment with his campaign go the way of the Dodo, I’ll certainly be working extra hard to make sure that someone else takes the Democratic primary.

    Amen to that, Jill. Hillary will get my money and my time in that event.

  5. He was, I thought, the candidate who represented my primary concerns — poverty, women’s rights, the war, the environment — and the candidate who purposely reached out to human rights advocates like Amanda and Melissa, and chose wisely when he asked them to join his staff. I hope he doesn’t make a decision that will make me reconsider my opinion of him. Because if a candidate isn’t even loyal to his own hand-picked staff, how can we expect him to be loyal to our interests?

    Right on. At your suggestion, I just wrote the Edwards campaign to tell them such. Here I’ve been excited about Edwards for the past three and a half years and he screws it up. I hope he does the right thing.

  6. if the banshee-like squeals of the right-wing noise machine can conjure a “controversy” based on such absolute, mind-blowing ridiculousness, i shudder for what we have in store when the real shit starts hitting the fan. it’s odd really, how a group of folks with such utter disdain for the “MSM,” can so easily penetrate it and swirl it around at their fancy. first obama and his madrasssa, now edwards and his evil cadre of foul mouthed harpies. why are they being taken seriously? the media apparently is now reporting whenever the right-wing cesspool gets a case of the vapors. This is not news, this is the media reporting on faux right-wing hysteria. ugh.

  7. Wingnut logic would almost be funny, if it weren’t so dangerous. First, they basically argue that Democrats are spineless, agendaless losers. Then, they raise this ridiculous hue and cry when Edwards dares to hire some of the smartest, most spine-intensive people in the blogosphere. Shocker! Why would Edwards even think about listening to the supposed complaints, since they’re just riddled with hypocrisy and contradiction? I dunno, maybe it makes sense if you’re a rightwing wackjob.

  8. My message to them:

    “We’re always looking for fresh ideas. This campaign is driven by people like you.”

    People like me include the two young women whose employment is currently in the balance. If I’m looking for a corporatist, stale, endlessly capitulating campaign, there are many other camps that already offer that alternative.

  9. Also worth noting is that only the rape charge was dropped against the 3 Duke lacrosse defendants — because Nifong didn’t believe he could prove that specific charge beyond a reasonable doubt — and now that the case has been transfered to the state, that charge may be reinstated after a full review of the evidence.

    The other charges — kidnapping and sexual offense — are still pending. So any claim that Amanda stated an opinion that has been legally disproven is false.

    The only thing that’s been proven is that Amanda’s critics disagree with her. I guess that’s the real problem.

  10. So Hillary demonstrates the ability to stand up to the Right whereas Edwards doesn’t? I think you may be elevating this episode into a much bigger deal than it is.

    After all, does Amanda’s voice and views really fit with any mainstream candidate? I think Edward might not have realilzed the extent of her writings and now is discovering what a liability she is. Can you imagine how easy it would be to come up with attack ads in crucial Catholic areas?

    I know it’s not fair that the Right created this little episode. It’s extremely hypocritical of them. But at this point Edwards has to worry about moderate and Democratic voters–and yes, many of them primary voters.

  11. Speaking as a yellow-dog Democrat, Amanda Marcotte was a terrible choice. Once they made the mistake of hiring her, the campaign was in a no-win situation. At this point it’s just a matter of cutting their losses.

    Probably the best thing they could do would be only to fire Marcotte, since she seems to be the biggest offender, and keep the other one.

  12. I find it hard to believe that a candidate for the primary for the presidential office would hire someone like Amanda without really looking into her work.

    I don’t always agree with Amanda either, but isn’t that why there is such intelligent discussion at Pandagon and feministe, etc. There is room for dissent. It makes people think and educate themselves.

    I, for one, think that it was an interesting move on Edwards’ part. I won’t say it was positive or negative because ultimately, any little thing in these early days is liable to make a candidate plummet quickly. I also have much more respect for anyone who stands up and voices an opinion than someone who simply allows others to beat them into compromise or assent.

  13. Jason, Rob: Do you believe Ms. Marcotte speaks truly, and that she’ll be able to help clue people in the Edwards campaign to do the same?

    Because that’s what matters. Political calculation, at this point, is horseshit, because any tricks a Democratic candidate tries to pull are going to get steamrollered — haven’t we seen enough of that already? And even if somebody could politics his way past that and into the office, it’ll be nothing but eight more years of the shit they pulled on Bill Clinton, except times about a thousand.

    Honesty and courage and standing up for what’s right might just manage to make a difference, if the message gets out. I suspect Ms. Marcotte can and will help with that a hell of a lot. (I can’t speak for Ms. Shakespeare’s Sister since I don’t read her blog yet.)

    On the other hand, like norbizness said: if it’s interminable capitulation you’re looking for, you’ve already got plenty of places to find it, and feel free to go find it if that’s what you want but be prepared for inevitable disappointment because it won’t take you anywhere but where we’re already headed.

    Cowards.

  14. And, not that Mr. Edwards cares, but should Amanda and Melissa’s employment with his campaign go the way of the Dodo, I’ll certainly be working extra hard to make sure that someone else takes the Democratic primary

    I’ve told him the exact same thing–and I was strong on board with Edwards this morning.

    It’s not just firing Amanda and Mellissa–it’s the fact that he’s wilting the first time the right wing slime machine fires up. If he can’t fight for Amanda and Mellissa now, how will he be able to fight for himself in 2008?

    (And yes, Amanda was a daring choice–but if you’re going to dare, dare.)

  15. I emailed the Edwards campaign. I was kind and eloquent. I let them know in no uncertain terms that part of the reason I decided to support Edwards in the primary season was his hiring of Amanda and Melissa, because of what I thought it said about him. I let them know that letting Amanda and Melissa go would speak even more loudly about him as a person and a candidate unable to stand up to the far-right propoganda machine.

    I also let him know that (a) Wingnut views on contraception and coerced birth are not, in fact, shared by any substantial majority of the population; (b) an opinion that the far-right viewpoints on women’s sexuality, contraception and abortion are misogynistic and oppressive is not, in fact, equivalent to being anti-anything but misogyny and ignorance; and (c) I will actively campaign against any Democtratic candidate I view as being shakey on reproductive freedom and a woman’s rights to privacy and bodily integrity.

    I then told him that giving in to some crazy campaign by hate-mongers would result in my dropping my support and picking a new candidate.

    I will be so angry, and so discouraged, if the looniest of the far-right are going to be allowed to define the (imaginary) middle.

    And you know, the Democrats were catering to the middle and pretending to be “Republican Lite” for a long time. It did them no good. That sort of thinking was NOT what turned things around last November. I do not believe for a minute that a candidacy is doomed if it acknowledges the left-wing base and actively stands against misogyny and homophobia. The Republicans don’t apologize for their base and it works for them.

  16. Aaron – based on my exposure to her, no, I do not believe she speaks truly. She speaks foolishly, and rashly, and is apt to open her mouth without first engaging her brain. I think she’d be an ongoing liability to any campaign.

  17. I hope Bill Maher invites Amanda to his Real Time panel, whether Edwards fires her or not.

    Since it’s HBO, she could say “fuck” and talk about anal sex if she wanted to.

  18. Salon says that Amanda and Melissa have been fired. I haven’t seen this reported anywhere else, so I doubt its accuracy.

    Then why don’t you ask Amanda and Melissa? That no one is denying it does not bode well.

    Because if a candidate isn’t even loyal to his own hand-picked staff, how can we expect him to be loyal to our interests?

    Shouldn’t his own hand-picked staff be loyal to the candidate? If their employment is going to hinder his ability to be elected, they shouldn’t stick around. If they don’t leave, this issue will never go away.

  19. I know she doesn’t have a damn clue about the Duke lacrosse case. Zero. Nada. None whatsoever.

    Whereas you, having been there that night and seen everything with your own eyes, know exactly what happened?

  20. I’d be curious to know how many of the people who are incensed — incensed! — by Amanda’s words about the Duke case have said they believe Juanita Broaddrick’s every word about Bill Clinton, even though he was never even indicted, unlike the guys at Duke.

    It would be an interesting comparison, n’est-ce pas?

  21. I know better than she does. And better than you do, I’d wager. Have you read the police reports? The transcript of the bogus “lineup”? All the motions?

  22. Then why don’t you ask Amanda and Melissa? That no one is denying it does not bode well.

    Because they’re a little busy dealing with this, and probably talking to their employer. It could very well be up in the air, and they can’t confirm either way.

    Shouldn’t his own hand-picked staff be loyal to the candidate? If their employment is going to hinder his ability to be elected, they shouldn’t stick around. If they don’t leave, this issue will never go away.

    Amanda and Melissa didn’t apply to work for the Edwards campaign. They were contacted and their services were requested. And the issue will certainly go away. First, only the right-wing nutjobs are up in arms about this. How many members of Edwards’ base, and how many American people, give two shits about what Michelle Malkin thinks? Believe me, the story will get old. I don’t think this is going to drag on for two years.

    As for Amanda and Melissa being loyal to Edwards, they haven’t done anything to be disloyal to him. None of the supposedly inflammatory posts have been put up since they were hired. As employees, they haven’t done anything to compromise the campaign. Everything that the wingnuts are focusing on was out there before Edwards hired them. It’s not a matter of their views being distasteful, it’s a matter of the Edwards campaign bowing to the slightest conservative criticism, and abandoning their own in the process.

  23. I know better than she does. And better than you do, I’d wager. Have you read the police reports? The transcript of the bogus “lineup”? All the motions?

    Have the conservative bloggers who refer to the victim as a liar and a slut? Do you criticize them the same way? Would you agree that they shouldn’t be hired by a political campaign because they haven’t read every single document related to one single criminal case?

  24. I can’t speak for anyone but myself, but I for one don’t give a rat’s ass about Juanita Broaddrick, or Gennifer Flowers, or Paula Jones, or Tawana Brawley for that matter.

  25. I don’t know if they have or not. I seriously doubt it. But since I don’t read conservative blogs as a general rule, I couldn’t really say.

  26. Rob, unless you ARE one of the “Duke Boys”, I suggest that everyone, including you, is working from incomplete information.

    Regardless, having an opinion about a rape or sexual assault case is not a felony offense…

  27. Rob, in earnest, why don’t you read the conservative blogs? I’ve never yet seen you agree with a post either here or at Pandagon, and your disagreement usually takes the form of defending the conservative view that the post is attacking. You’ve made it more than clear that you don’t like the company here. Why on Earth do you stay? Why not spend at least some of your time with people you actually agree with?

  28. I can’t vote in the US elections (that pesky UK citizen thing), but I hope Edwards does right by Amanda and Melissa. I sent the following:

    I sincerely hope that you will not let the manufactured controversy brought up by some right-wing bloggers and media outlets influence you into letting Amanda and Melissa go.

    I know that Amanda in particular has strong, sometimes controversial opinions. However, she is one of the most intelligent, persuasive and brilliant bloggers writing at the moment.

    I am a UK citizen and as such cannot vote for you. However, I was very impressed by your decision to hire two of the most interesting people writing on the left at the moment. It raised my interest in your campaign.

    I hope you will have the courage of your convictions and keep these two superb writers working for you. The right-wing bloggers have been looking for a fight and are trying to turn this into news, hoping to claim some scalps. Giving in to this kind of manufactured outrage will only encourage them to think they have the power to influence the left.

    The world needs a good and decent president of the United States who won’t back down when faced with this kind of brazen bullying. I hope I can count on you to stand up for what’s right.

    (As a non-American, I’ve just been forced to enter “California” as my state and “90210” as my zip code in order to submit the form… Thank god for bad 80s teen dramas.)

    Possibly I’ve been watching too much West Wing recently and am hoping for President Bartlet (if anyone hires Allison Janney as their Press Secretary, they’ll have my vote immediately). I hope Edwards doesn’t cave – giving in to the first attack from the rabid right sends a terrible message.

  29. Everyone, including the accused, is working from “incomplete information”. No one knows why the accuser made up the story she did, though we can make a pretty good guess (to keep from being hauled off to the drunk tank at the county jail). No one knows why Mike Nifong chose to indict the three people on the basis of no evidence but a no-wrong-answers photo identification that violates every procedure in the book, though we can make a pretty good guess (he needed to indict SOMEONE before the primary election, or he was out on his keister as soon as Freda Black took office).

    There’s incomplete information, and there’s information enough to form an informed opinion.

    And in Amanda Marcotte’s case, there’s information that is clearly at odds with established facts. And that information appears to be precisely what she bases her foolish opinions on.

  30. Oh please, tell me a single “conservative view” that I agree with. This should be entertaining.

    Much as the right wing would like it to be so, believing that innocent people should be exonerated is not a conservative view. Believing that it is wrong to slander innocent people without having a clue what you are talking about is not a conservative view.

    And I guess the reason I hang around here is because I think liberals – like me – should be sticking up for innocent people. And frankly, it saddens me greatly that the places where people are galvanized about this case are mostly overrun by racists and wingnuts. How the hell did we let those assholes – pardon the term – those assholes be on the right side of this issue while our side seems determined to back the false accuser to the hilt?

  31. Rob is a fucking ‘derail from the real issue’ troll and should summarily be placed on ignore.

  32. Everyone, including the accused, is working from “incomplete information”.

    So, Rob, what’s your take on the e-mail that the Duke lacrosse player sent out fantasizing about the strippers he’d seen the night before? I guess that’s just normal guy behavior, blowing off some steam, huh?

  33. I think it was a dumbass kid sending out an email to some friends that was a ripoff on Bret Easton Ellis’s novel American Psycho, which is pretty familiar to Duke students because there are a number of classes in the curriculum where it’s part of the assigned reading (the film is also apparently popular with kids in that age range, from what I understand). I would imagine if he had any idea anyone other than his buddies was ever going to see it, I suspect he’d never have sent it.

    But I presume you’ve never said something inappropriate to anyone in a private email, right?

    Next?

  34. So, really, WHAT DOES IT MATTER what Amanda believes about one case? Should everyone who works for any candidate be vetted to make sure they’re 100% in agreement with the candidate on every single news story that has ever happened?

    My problem with Edwards is as beautifully mentioned by Jeff”
    “it’s the fact that he’s wilting the first time the right wing slime machine fires up”. If he’s this spineless against Michelle Malkin over a campaign employee, how’s he going to be in a G-8 summit???

  35. Actually, car, I kinda agree with you. I don’t think they should have ever hired Marcotte in the first place, but it may be even worse that it seems like they dumped her only after getting pressure from the so-called “Catholic League”, which is actually just a right-wing front organization (check out who’s on their board – it’ll make your skin crawl).

  36. Rob,
    heads up–here’s a conservative view that you clearly seem to share: misogyny.

    The dancer was beaten, robbed, and demeaned.
    They may not be guilty of rape, but they ain’t exactly innocent either.

  37. Here to troll. Thanks for clearing that up, Rob.

    I’m with Tiffany. Letting Bobby-boy derail the thread for a second day in a row is giving him what he wants – and far more importance than he deserves. This thread is *not* about the Duke Rape Case, unless we let him make it so.

    Rob, we’re all very impressed that you have Amanda on the ropes. You’re clearly enjoying it. I’m sure it’s a big help that she has her back turned and isn’t swinging back.

    Keep yammering as long as you like – I’m sure you will anyway – but be aware that you’re persuading no one. Even if it turns out that this was, indeed, one of the extremely rare cases of a woman lying about being raped (and that has *not* yet been settled – not all charges have been dropped, after all), no one here is going to fault Amanda for taking an alleged victim at her word (as we do for most other crimes) and assuming that the alleged rapists were, as many actual rapists do, applying the extemely-effective “the slut is lying!” defense. We will not think less of her for making that mistake, still less for being vehement about it.

    There. Since I’m not at all convinced that you give a damn about the Duke case beyond its utility as a club to beat Amanda with and a lever to derail threads, perhaps you’ll find something else to troll with now.

  38. Chris Clarke: If Edwards won’t defend a woman’s right to an opinion, how will he defend a woman’s right to choose?

    As usual, you have won the soundbite award. That’s exactly the line Edwards needs to take to stand strong.

  39. Do I have my timeline wrong? I was rather under the impression that the Duke post drawing the majority of the idiots’ ire was one that was made before much of the exonerating information was available to the public. But I didn’t follow the case closely enough to match dates, so I could be wrong.

  40. LS –

    Seriously – Tiffany’s right. Ignore him. You may have good intentions, and you may be right, but you’ll just encourage him.

  41. My e-mail to the Edwards campaign:

    Dear Sir/Madam:

    I was pleased to see the addition of Amanda Marcotte and Melissa McEwan to your staff, and have recently been made aware of the possibility that they may be fired. I confess I’m confused; did the Edwards campaign not read their blogs before hiring them? I’m sure that the campaign knew exactly what it was getting: two intelligent, prolific bloggers capable of pithy, trenchant writing.

    It would be a bad omen indeed if this campaign capitulated so quickly to conservative harassment. In such a case, I would surely have to reconsider my vote.

    Yours,
    [name]

  42. But I presume you’ve never said something inappropriate to anyone in a private email, right?

    I’ve never said in an e-mail that I wanted to kill someone who accused me of rape, no.

    But it’s starting to seem like you have an awfully personal stake in all of this, Rob. Still desperate to prove to everyone that she lied about what you did, even though you know deep down in your little brain that you really did rape her?

  43. Amanda and Melissa didn’t apply to work for the Edwards campaign. They were contacted and their services were requested…It’s not a matter of their views being distasteful, it’s a matter of the Edwards campaign bowing to the slightest conservative criticism, and abandoning their own in the process.

    So the Edwards campaign was either too lazy or disorganized to read the content of the blogs, or the campaign is “bowing to the slightest conservative criticism…”.

    It really doesn’t look good for Edwards. It shows a campaign in disarray, for one. And I’m pretty shocked that the campaign made these hiring decisions and that those making decisions are unwilling to back up their employment choices or handle rhetorical attacks.

    For me, this means that the Edwards campaign isn’t ready for prime time and someone else ought to be supported for the Democratic candidate.

  44. if the banshee-like squeals of the right-wing noise machine can conjure a “controversy” based on such absolute, mind-blowing ridiculousness, i shudder for what we have in store when the real shit starts hitting the fan.

    Well, let’s think here. The three front-runners are:

    1) Clinton, whose name will conjure up so much bile from the right that we’ll drown. She also has the added disadvantage (in many voters’ eyes) of being female.

    2) Obama, who is both black and has a “funny” middle name, will be fighting an uphill battle to convince many people to not discount him simply because of the color of his skin or sound of his name.

    3) Edwards, who is probably the most bullet-proof of them all due to being white, male, and from the South (or close enough). However, he still carries the burden of advocating for the poor and being a Democrat, so the noise machine will get some hooks in–just not nearly as deep as the others.

    Candidates (1) and (2) are easy prey for the noise machine, despite their huge appeal and/or monetary backing. (3) is tougher and they’ll have to work hard to get at him. These are, as mentioned above, just the opening shots. Edwards will be the subject of many, many more attacks like this one. And they will increase in volume and become more serious as well–even though there will be relatively nothing to them.

    And, as much as I would LOVE for him to run, Gore would be eviscerated even faster than Clinton if he joined the race.

  45. I’m impressed she managed to get “beaten” without so much as a scratch or a bruise. Check the SANE nurse’s report. Granted, the nurse was a trainee, but I think she’d have seen bruises, no?

    And the post in question was put up on 1/21/07, which is well after all the exonerating information came out.

    And the email you’re all so hot and bothered about was sent before anyone was accused of rape. Really, don’t you folks pay *any* attention to the facts in this case before spouting off about it? It makes you look pretty stupid.

    Here to troll? Yeah, right. It’s interesting to see that even liberals can be as closed-minded and dismissive as wingnuts. I expect better, and so should you.

    Oh, and nice try, Mnemosyne. Unfortunately for you, I can also prove that I was nowhere in the vicinity that night. Of course, we already know that wouldn’t make any difference to Mike Nifong if he needed someone to indict – nor to many of the posters here, sadly, it seems. Who cares if someone is demonstrably innocent, the false accuser picked them out of a no-wrong-answers line-up, so they must be guilty, guilty, guilty!

  46. Still desperate to prove to everyone that she lied about what you did, even though you know deep down in your little brain that you really did rape her?

    This is the stuff Republican strategists’ dreams are made of. Bless you, Mnemosyne. You’re still birthing muses.

    Bravo.

  47. Look, guys, you really don’t have to know about these so-called “facts” to decide that these guys raped her.

    I mean, seriously, this stuff just confuses the issue. She’s poor and black, they’re white and rich. How could they NOT rape her?

  48. This is the stuff Republican strategists’ dreams are made of.

    Yes Pablo (Howdy there!), Republican strategists do dream about phrases which, removed from their context, conform precisely to their preconceived notions of what liberal feminists think. These strategists would love to rip that comment from the context of Rob’s incessant trolling–you know, the fact that he’s on every single thread here talking about the Duke case–and turn it into a general indictment.

    What else is there to say? They love their still-born muses.

  49. There is an enormous difference between disagreeing with the Catholic Church on an issue and writing vulgar, insulting things about the core beliefs of a billion people. No campaign should sanction any form of anti-religious bigotry, be it toward Muslims, Christians, Jews, or anyone else.

    be honest. if Muslims had been described in the tone used for Catholics, would anyone here really support their continued employment? I wouldn’t. There are certain bases on which it is not cool to slag people. Race, sex, gender, sexual orientation, and religion form a short list, and I think a very uncontroversial list.

    There are two reasons this is not cool. First: it’s wrong. Second: it’s stupid. it’s very rare in politics that doing the right thing is also doing the smart thing, and in this occasion, the decision to fire both people is so very much both that I can’t believe it’s taken this long.

  50. Still desperate to prove to everyone that she lied about what you did, even though you know deep down in your little brain that you really did rape her?

    This is the stuff Republican strategists’ dreams are made of. Bless you, Mnemosyne. You’re still birthing muses.

    If Republican strategists are that interested in what a completely anonymous commenter on a (sorry, guys) quite minor feminist blog thinks, Republican strategists clearly have WAY too much time on their hands and need a hobby.

  51. I know she doesn’t have a damn clue about the Duke lacrosse case. Zero. Nada. None whatsoever.

    And this is relevant to a Presidential campaign — how, exactly?

    Sorry, Rob. You’re trolling. You’re on moderation from here on out.

  52. If Republican strategists are that interested in what a completely anonymous commenter on a (sorry, guys) quite minor feminist blog thinks

    Hey!

    We’re actually a big feminist blog. And we’re in the top 250 of all blogs, dammit!

  53. Oh, and nice try, Mnemosyne. Unfortunately for you, I can also prove that I was nowhere in the vicinity that night.

    I wasn’t talking about the accuser in the Duke rape case, but that’s an impressive misreading.

    It’s just been my experience that the men who are most vocal about how women constantly lie about being raped are ones who have quite questionable things in their own pasts that they’ve rationalized to themselves weren’t “really” rape.

    I’m sure it was years ago — during your own college days, or perhaps even in high school? — but you know the incident I’m talking about, don’t you?

  54. Rob – I haven’t followed the Duke case in any detail, so I won’t argue details. But to bring up a point of fact – no. The nurse would not have seen bruises that soon after an attack. Unless the beating is severe in the extreme, bruises can take hours to days to crop up – and sometimes the deeper the bruise, the longer it takes. It hurts the entire time, but it won’t show until later. Someone can be quite badly beaten, and yet show no visible bruising up to several hours later.

    So speaks the woman who collects bruises several times monthly for her hobbies.

  55. Yes Pablo (Howdy there!), Republican strategists do dream about phrases which, removed from their context, conform precisely to their preconceived notions of what liberal feminists think.

    As opposed to what liberal feminists really think. You only assume GOP strategists need to take this out of context. Who needs a preconceived notions check more?

  56. We’re actually a big feminist blog. And we’re in the top 250 of all blogs, dammit!

    You’re definitely bigger than Pablo’s blog. 😉 But you guys aren’t, like, DailyKos or Democratic Underground. You’re a boutique, not a Wal-Mart like Kos or DU.

    But, yes, Pablo, please tell the whole world that a completely anonymous commenter on Feministe totally said, like, bad things about rapists and stuff. And then after that, you can show them how fire works!

  57. Yes Pablo (Howdy there!), Republican strategists do dream about phrases which, removed from their context, conform precisely to their preconceived notions of what liberal feminists think.

    That one works in context, SEK. In fact, it owrks best in context.

    There. I raped you. Goodnight.

  58. So speaks the woman who collects bruises several times monthly for her hobbies.

    Oh, you can’t drop a comment like that without an explanation.

  59. OHNOES, didn’t we ban you like, ages ago?

    I know you don’t agree with me. but I also know from long experience that you’re smart enough to argue with me rather than just shutting me up. 🙂 you’re welcome to do either, of course.

  60. oh, no, sorry. I just meant I’ve read the site for a long time and have seen that you are sharp argumentatively, in the substance of your posts and in comments discussion.

    that is why I post comments only rarely. most of the time I find myself largely in agreement with what’s written, so on occasions I don’t, it’s worthwhile to say so in the interests of a good argument.

    I’ve tried arguing with conservatives but there is not much fun in beating up on intellectual 9-year-olds. 😉

  61. of Rob’s incessant trolling–you know, the fact that he’s on every single thread here talking about the Duke case–

    And what’s up with the fixation on the Duke case? There’s no new news, it looks like it’s still going to trial, and as far as I’m concerned, the next news will come out in the testimony at the actual trial. (And we won’t get much solid information until the trial.)

    (Alright, – here’s my short feminist analysis on why the Duke case triggers the men who are fixating on the case.) The charge of rape can go to trial on the word of one woman. Of course, this is how all physical/assault cases work. Witnesses or physical evidence are not necessarily required to press criminal charges.

    However, I think the fact that rape charges can be brought on the simple word of a woman freaks out certain men.

  62. Ian, I’m sure you can tell the difference between trolling and legitimate disagreement.

    Believe me, I love a good argument, but people like Rob and OHNOES don’t provide it. Which is why they get banned or moderated.

  63. It’s not about Amanda and Melissa.

    It’s about every progressive blogger: does a gay-bashing Jew-baiting right-wing thug get to bully our progressive blogging culture? If not, we have to be prepared to pull the political trigger on those who refuse to get our back.

  64. I have been watching from up in Canada and am astonished that any political candidate would take on this sort of liability. I am all for passionate prose but it is a grave error to mistake profanity for passion or bigotry for insight. Ms. Marcotte is literally blinded by hatred and on reading her blog any relatively savvy campaign manager would have gone, “Next”.

    Here’s the thing: if you want to blog with abandon, great! But remember that the ‘net never forgets. In the real world serious political candidates cannot have people working for them who want to chat about the Virgin Mary’s plan “B” any more than they can have Islamists who refer to Jews as monkeys and Christians as pigs or fundys who want to run with the “gay’ is a disease trope.

    People have every right – in the US, though not up here where we have hate speech laws- to spread whichever vile brand of hatred they want; but unless they want to be Lyndon LaRouche’s blog wrangler, they can’t expect to last long on a campaign.

  65. Ian,

    How can one discuss birth control of any kind without stepping on the toes of Catholics? It is literally impossible the way that cookie crumbles. Catholics have every right to believe that contraception is a sin, just as any human has a right to argue for birth control and a woman’s right to choose. Furthermore, we can put forward arguments about how anti-contraception measures exacerbate several types of public health issues, and we can put forward arguments that the Catholic Church is directly responsible for some of these policies. This is not disrespectful, even if someone says “I think Catholicism is a lie, however you are free to believe as your conscience dictates and I will fight for your right to do so.” Just as Catholics’ core beliefs could be considered deeply offensive on any number of grounds, we must function as a society and tolerate each other at the highest possible level, without infringing on each others rights. Please spare me your 1 billion offended and belittled. There either is a heaven full of saints and angels or there isn’t, whether I say there is or isn’t has no bearing, so why would you possibly be offended? We could play this game forever, or we could grow up.

  66. oh heh. i am a poop. I didn’t realize “OHNOES” was the name of an actual poster, I thought you were just talking to me.

    re: Bruce. To an extent, your point is right: Donahue and his crowd are hypocrites. on a more important level I think you are missing the point. Equal concern and respect for all people is a core Democratic/liberal/progressive value, and that means equal concern and respect for *all* people. religious intolerance in any form is just not compatible with that.

    so, as an old friend used to say: the sun shines occasionally even on a retard’s ass. donahue can stumble onto a correct point without being someone we need to listen to on a regular basis.

    when we criticize intolerance by the far right in America–that is, when we call them out for frothy-mouthed rants about “ragheads” and the various other slurs they have cooked up for people that are insufficiently like them–that criticism needs to come from a position of strength. The only way to do that is to have a hard-edged policy that says “no religious intolerance,” even when that hard-edged policy harms people we might like.

  67. Gosh, Jay Currie, you’ve really convinced me that you’re an oh-so-neutral, oh-so-reasonable outsider who just doesn’t understand how the US political system works.

    Particularly when the first post on your page is entitled “F****** Awesome” and reads, “Amanda Marcotte revealed…” with the text linked to Iowahawk’s smear job.

    So neutral. So reasonable. So very Canadian.

  68. Pinko Punko: I agree. Nothing in your post is out of bounds. No one needs to worry about “stepping on the toes” of Catholics. what we should worry about is the sort of thing that was written by one of these bloggers: really vulgar, insulting stuff, meant clearly to cause offense. Well, congratulations; it caused offense, and now the Edwards campaign has to figure out what to do.

    there is an enormous difference between me saying “I disagree with the policies of many mainstream Islamic religious leaders” (true) and “all muslims are ragheads 9/11 never forget.” I think that difference is captured in your post (more like the former) vs. Amanda’s (more like the latter).

    I am not saying anyone should be censored. I am saying that if you want to participate in mainstream political discourse you have to check this kind of vitriol at the door. You can’t run around throwing bombs and then act like a wounded pup when one of your bombs explodes.

  69. I love that Pablo is going to be running around going, “OMG, an anonymous commenter on Feministe accused Rob of raping the woman in the Duke rape case!”

    Stupidity, thy name is Pablo.

  70. I don’t think I suggested I didn’t understand how the US political system works. I’ve been following US politics since Watergate.

    My sense is that IowaHawk wrote a pretty funny piece but if you can’t laugh at it I suppose you can try to dismiss it as a smear job. After all, the man actually quoted Ms. Marcotte which is pretty darned low.

    And, my point was that no serious political candidate or intelligent campaign manager wants to spend any time at all being laughed at or pilloried for hiring a potty mouthed loose cannon. It was a dumb hire and the faster Edwards turns the page the better his chances of it all being forgotten by the time it matters. Move On and all that.

  71. Stop yer whining; Austin is a better place for Amanda than NC. Fate is called fate for a reason.

  72. Ian,

    this is the problem. The Edwards campaign contacted Shakes and Amanda and then hired two “radical” feminist bloggers who don’t hold their punches. Like, this isn’t a secret, yes?

    Ok – so one of two things happened. (1) The Edwards campaign is incompetent and hired bloggers without reading their work. (this seems improbable as they contacted Amanda and Shakes.)

    or

    (2) The Edwards campaign has no balls and is caving into the complaints of far right-wing commenters.

  73. Pinko Punko, #78

    How can one discuss birth control of any kind without stepping on the toes of Catholics? It is literally impossible the way that cookie crumbles. Catholics have every right to believe that contraception is a sin, just as any human has a right to argue for birth control and a woman’s right to choose.

    Have you read the Amanda’s actual comments? Just because it may be a touchy subject does not give one carte blanche to be deliberately vile. In fact, it could be argued that it would be advisable to handle such discussions with decorum & civility. Asking “What if Mary had used “Plan B” after God had filled her with his hot, sticky, Holy Spirit” and her answer to that hypothetical is most certainly not what passes for decorum & civility. Given a choice between the proven electorial value of Catholics as a Democratic voting bloc and the rather questionable value of the Netroots as such, Edwards made the smart choice in canning these two. (Though it would have been smarter still to have done a bit of vetting ahead of time and never have had this mess come up in the first place…)

  74. Mnemosyne, it’s an impressive misreading that I apparently wasn’t the only one to make. The rest of your mistaken assumption is both laughable and offensive.

    I don’t have a particular bee in my bonnet about rape (other than some people close to me who were victims many years ago, but that’s neither here nor there), but what you don’t understand is that this case is not about rape. How could it be, since by every account there was never a period of time where she actually could have been raped?

    It’s about a couple of average people who were falsely accused of a heinous crime, and but for the fact that they were “fortunate” enough to have families and friends who could come up with THREE MILLION DOLLARS (and counting!) to defend themselves against charges that it’s patently obvious to anyone whose actually been paying attention (which seems to exclude pretty much everyone here, if you’ll be honest about it – nothing wrong with that, but at least admit that you haven’t been following it closely enough to fairly dispute the facts with those of us who have) that they are totally innocent of. Could you come up with a million bucks to defend yourself against criminal charges based on the absolutely nothing but the word of a total stranger of, shall we say, questionable credibility? I really doubt that I could, and I expect that would be a pretty serious issue for most people. Perhaps you’re independently wealthy and are rolling in the dough from Shrub’s tax cuts, but I’m not.

    Scott, your claim that I am “trolling in every thread” is complete crap, and you know it. I’m only discussing this in the context of poor, poor Amanda Marcotte, who according to the collective groupthink here has done nothing wrong. She’s welcome to her opinions, but the way they are expressed make her a pretty questionable choice to work in a high-profile position on a presidential campaign, IMHO. That being said, the problem I have with her is that she insists on slandering three demonstrably innocent people because of her own ignorance and irresponsibility.

    And how about a little honesty, zuzu? The real reason that you are accusing me of “trolling” is because I have the temerity to disagree with the collective (and uninformed) opinion on this issue. In fact, I’ll ask you to ban me the first time I bring any of this up outside of the context of either a post about it or a post about poor mistreated Amanda Marcotte, who was only speaking the truth about that black honor student who was so viciously beaten and raped by those misogynistic privileged lacrosse players. Bollocks!

  75. Tapetum – I don’t know that I agree, but fair enough. Let me rephrase, then. She claimed to have been beaten, and raped vaginally, anally, and orally by three men over a period of 30 minutes. They take her later that night to a SANE nurse, and that nurse documents only that she had a small non-bleeding cut on her knee and one on her heel (which she had before the supposed “attack”, because they are visible in the time-stamped photographs taken earlier in the evening),and diffuse edema of the vaginal walls (easily explained by her driver’s statement that he had taken her to fulfill a variety of one-on-one “appointments” earlier that day).

    So tell me, do you really think her “injuries” as documented by a medical professional are consistent with her claim of having been beaten, strangled, and raped by three men over a period of 30 minutes? Come on.

    I have no idea what percentage of rape claims are false. (I can’t imagine it’s very many.) But even if it’s one in a million, it should be obvious to Amanda Marcotte and pretty much everyone else that this is that one in a million case.

  76. I am saying that if you want to participate in mainstream political discourse you have to check this kind of vitriol at the door

    Ever been to America? Ever heard of our President and most of the last Congress, or are they not participating in mainstream political discourse? Ever checked out the op-ed page or switched on CNN, Fox, MSNBC any source of Tv punditry? Own a radio? What’s mainstream political discourse, the letters page of the London Review of Books?

    Amanda didn’t call Catholics the equivalent of ragheads, and it’s very likely many if not most Catholics would laugh at that post, I did. Her intent is to cause offense to whom? The Pope? “Catholic” is not synonymous with “reactionary mysoginist homophobic authoritarian wannabe theocrats”. There are at least as many Catholics who are vehemently critical of the Church and its positions as there are Donohue style Catholics, and those of us in group A find group B just as distasteful. And, you know, if we didn’t have to go out of our way to find a Church where our elected officials (who are actually present for Mass) aren’t given public tongue lashings for voting the wrong way and we aren’t subject to anti-abortion propaganda in the pews and anti-gay marriage films and Church leaders weren’t up to their necks in political manuvering, then this probably wouldn’t come up.

    Amanda doesn’t hate Catholics but she’s sick of religions trying to bring about theocratic control of the government. She’s not intolerant of their beliefs, she just thinks they’re irrational, and she doesn’t want to force them to stop practicing or punish them for doing so, all she wants is the freedom to live in a religiously neutral state. I don’t see why Amanda can’t have a position on mythology if the Bishops can try and tell elected officials and parishioners how to vote and tell athiests they’re going to hell. Religions are no different from ideologies, they’re going to be critiqued, especially when their leaders get involved so deeply in politics. That’s completely different from hate speech, especially when you’re talking about a religion that isn’t exactly in the position of an oppressed minority here, unlike Muslims, Jews, and Athiests. I’m personally more worried about someone who wants to take custody of my uterus with help from my local priests than someone who makes a joke about Jesus, Mary, and Joseph leading to an anti-Catholic pogrom down at Bingo.

  77. Ok. The post is about Amanda, and the Duke issue is only relevant in so far as to whether or not Amanda’s coverage of it disqualifies her from her position as a blogger for John Edwards. Drop the back and forth about the details of the case. It’s off-topic, and it’s damn tiresome at this point.

  78. God, I’m tired of this. I’m tired of people piling on to Amanda for daring to be critical of religion. I’m tired of people piling on to Amanda for daring to express her opinions (whether you agree with them or not) with a bit of fire. I’m tired of the hypocrisy that says it’s okay to be vile about the very existence of a group as long as you do it in a mealy-mouthed way, but it’s not okay to say that someone’s attempt to force their morality on to other people isn’t on.

    I don’t know how atheists survive in the United States. I live in a nominally religious country where our head of state is also the head of the official church, and I can’t imagine a reaction like this to someone basically saying “I don’t believe in this and you’re using it to justify political positions that I find repugnant”, albeit in a robust manner. The US is founded on the the greatest Enlightenment principles, but in practice it seems to be a hanging (or at least firing) offence to exercise your freedoms as laid down in the Constitution. How on earth do atheists get by when the pressure not to offend ANY religious sensibilities, no matter how extreme, is as fearsome as this? Have people lost the ability to read in a nuanced way? Have they lost the ability to read critically at all? Can no one say anything even slightly intemperate or do they have to watch every word in case someone uses it against them in later life? Is everything anyone who is loosely associated with politics has ever written now fair game? Politics is going to become a field into which only room-temperature-plain-yoghurt-bland people can enter if we carry on like this (and I’m speaking about the UK too) – we’ll force the brilliant visionaries out and end up with a government of barely competent, unimaginative plodders who will always take the safe way out because they don’t dare to take a chance. And we’ll be the worse for it.

    I read an article comparing the blogging revolution to the pamphleteers of the 17th and 18th centuries. It’s messy, untidy, passionate, often angry, often single issue, but it’s got vitality and spark. Just watch that spark of engagement go out as all voices that might possible offend some mythical middle ground are silenced. No one is ever be polite enough, well-researched enough, balanced enough to be above some sort of criticism if someone really wants to take you down.

    This has been a sad, ugly little episode in blogging history.

    A very tired, very demoralised, very disillusioned,

    thegirlfrommarz.

  79. Ever been to America? Ever heard of our President and most of the last Congress, or are they not participating in mainstream political discourse? Ever checked out the op-ed page or switched on CNN, Fox, MSNBC any source of Tv punditry? Own a radio? What’s mainstream political discourse, the letters page of the London Review of Books?

    Our President, the last Congress, FOX “News,” talk radio, etc., are complete disgraces to political argument. Largely because of exactly this kind of rhetoric and vitriol. When we criticize it, it must come from a position of strength and that means we can’t be hypocrites.

    I have little to argue with in the rest of your post. You don’t think her remarks are that offensive; I do. That’s a completely subjective judgment call. But I don’t think it’s unreasonable to be offended when the purpose of a remark is to offend. There is something inherently risky about out-group criticism of religion. Especially sustained, vulgar criticism of one particular religion. As an experiment, rewrite her remarks to be about Jews and then ask yourself if you’d really feel comfortable posting them on your blog/anywhere/saying them out loud. Maybe I’m a weenie when it comes to taking people’s religion out to the woodshed, but I don’t think so. You can’t go after people’s religious identity the way you go after a political party.

    I agree w/ the commenter above who said this shows some deeply stupid decision making by the Edwards campaign. How hard is it to vet a blogger? Their blog is on the Internet. It’s not like you have to go to the Madison Department of Records.

  80. Speaking as a Canadian, I’d like to note that Jay Currie is about as representative of mainstream Canadian opinion as his hero, Mark Steyn. Case in point: his climate change section (complete with requisite scare quotes).

    That totally gets the Fraser Institute seal of approval!

  81. OT – to respond to zuzu.

    I’m heavily involved in the martial arts, just about to start the run up to black belt. At the moment I have 3-5 classes a week with two different instructors and varying degrees of violence. I usually have four or five bruises in some stage of healing at any given point (right now I have a fist imprint just below the ribcage, a jammed finger, and a bruise on my heel). Forearm bruises are the most common, but I’ve had everything, up to a knee in the face, so I’m pretty familiar with what the results of hitting look like.

    My personal favorite moment was when a client slipped me a business card with the domestic violence hotline number on the back. I couldn’t even claim that my husband hadn’t done it, since he takes one of the classes (though not all of them) right along with me.

  82. CoRev, I deleted your comment because I already said to shut it on the Duke issue. This thread is about the right-wing backlash against Amanda.

  83. You know, the question shouldn’t even be whether Amanda’s ever said anything offensive to anyone (“Construed, schmonstrued! It was meant to be offensive!”). Of course she has. So have I. So have most people. This isn’t preschool. But you know, I know, everyone knows that someone at the Edwards campaign read every little smitch of writing of Amanda’s they could track down before they hired her. Firing her for being herself on her own personal blog is beyond ridiculous.
    I just emailed them to say so; I told ’em, if they won’t stand up for Amanda, why would I think they’d stand up for me?

  84. I think if they didn’t want bloggers who would say things that might offend the crocodile tears criers on the right they should have not hired them from the get go, instead of letting everyone get excited and then caving in to pressure.

  85. If Edwards can’t weather the storm on a non-issue like this, how can we expect him to handle real problems for the entire country?

    And seriously folks, those of you who are insinuating that a campaign staff blogger’s past PERSONAL writings could sink the entire campaign of a Presidential candidate hopeful are smoking crack.

  86. And seriously folks, those of you who are insinuating that a campaign staff blogger’s past PERSONAL writings could sink the entire campaign of a Presidential candidate hopeful are smoking crack.

    If I was running a hypothetical campaign against Edwards, I’d be drooling at the thought of the mailers, radio ads, TV ads, robocalls, push polls, etc. that I could use against him just by quoting Marcotte’s past posts.

    They’re poison. I can’t understand what they were thinking hiring her in the first place.

  87. Just gotta say: that’s a pretty hot witch up there.

    I know a few self-proclimed witches, and they look nothing like that. If they did, I might take them up on their offer to join their coven.

  88. In light of the overall tone of the MSM these days, we should refuse to let a fellow feminist be taken down merely for being off-color and controversial. At least not until I see Pappa Bear roasting on a spit. Where were all those hand wringers when Dear Leader appointed Fox News correspondent Tony Snow as press secretary, who not only had said some very controversial things on TV, but who also had an obvious conflict of interest since in “theory” it had been his job to offer a fair and balanced opinion about Dear Leader. So come see me about Amanda when Tony is excommunicated from the church of journalism for having so curried favor with the powers that be while he kept on little toe in the objectivity wading pool that he became the White House sock puppet officially.

  89. Jill, I’m sorry to see that. I submitted a very similar post in the comments to Amanda’s offending post re: Duke and the Atlanta delay, and it never saw the light of day. Contrarian views are not threatening.

    I will not repeat my analysis of the politics. I do believe them to be cogent and untouched here, as yet.

  90. If I was running a hypothetical campaign against Edwards, I’d be drooling at the thought of the mailers, radio ads, TV ads, robocalls, push polls, etc. that I could use against him just by quoting Marcotte’s past posts.

    I guess first you’d have to explain what exactly a “blogger” even is to most of the people you reach out to. Honestly, the impact of a candidate’s blogger on his or her campaign chances is such a non-issue it makes the right-wing response to her hiring all the more unhinged–that’s the term they like to throw at liberals, right? Most of America lives in blissful ignorance about the controversies that rage across the blogosphere. Your hypothetical campaign would get a lot more mileage out of all the “evil trial attorney” stuff they trotted out last time.

  91. I guess first you’d have to explain what exactly a “blogger” even is to most of the people you reach out to. Honestly, the impact of a candidate’s blogger on his or her campaign chances is such a non-issue it makes the right-wing response to her hiring all the more unhinged–that’s the term they like to throw at liberals, right? Most of America lives in blissful ignorance about the controversies that rage across the blogosphere. Your hypothetical campaign would get a lot more mileage out of all the “evil trial attorney” stuff they trotted out last time.

    The heck with that. In my hypothetical smear campaign, I’ll attribute her statements to a “senior campaign official”- with some thought, I can probably come up with some wording that makes it sound like it came from Edwards himself. Once I push that out to the low-information voters who decide elections (i.e., the dopes who bought – and still believe – all that swift-boat crap about Kerry), it’ll be all over.

  92. Cybrludite,

    Yeah, I’ve read those comments, as well as 5 million other posts at Pandagon. And for the most part none are offensive like that one, and on top of that you can comment at Pandagon and argue about the language and further the debate. It is part of a conversation. This is what blogs can be. Amanda was being provocative and in doing so she probably obscured her main point, her point being that misogyny exists under the heading of religion, but does not necessarily spring from it, and if Christianity did not exist, we would still have people oppressing women, and using a particular world view, possibly religion to do it. She was not effective in doing this, most likely because she really laid it on strong. I know the words matter a lot, but do they really, deep down in this case?

    “What if Jesus were just another dude…”

    “What if Jesus didn’t exist…”

    “What if Mary and Joseph had sex and Jesus were not the son of God…”

    All of the above can be taken either to propose a hypothetical (meaning imagine a world where the above are true, different from the world we have), which most likely is the only way Amanda’s statement can be taken, or the above could be proposing alternate factual realities for our world, thus suggesting Christianity is false. However, Amanda’s statement can’t even be the latter because Mary did not have access to Plan B. Amanda may have been offensive in how she phrased an alternate reality where Jesus doesn’t exist, but why not read the actual words? And the problem with religion is, if Jesus means as much to Amanda as any random individual in existence, why does she have to show reverence for Him?

    I don’t even want to defend her language because it was unfortunate (very much so) in this case be it obscured her point. Given that she writes thousands of words a week, I can allow some intemperance because if she did something to shit on my head, I would say so. If you care about the conversation, join it. I don’t like it when people offend other people, but those of certain religious persuasions perhaps don’t have any clue what it is like to be treated like unethical garbage, which is exactly how atheists are treated. Add that to the institutional misogyny of certain creeds and beliefs, you might understand better where Amanda’s anger is coming from, anger that might cause her to offend people occasionally.

  93. For those asking whether we’d be defending Amanda if she’d made intemperate remarks about other religions–guess what? She has. Catholics aren’t the only group she’s picked on. I’m amazed we haven’t heard anything from the SBC yet. Pretty much all the christian denominations I’m aware of believe in the Virgin Birth. That’s the thing with us atheists. We don’t take any religion seriously.

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