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What’s wrong with princesses?

I finally came unhinged in the dentist’s office — one of those ritzy pediatric practices tricked out with comic books, DVDs and arcade games — where I’d taken my 3-year-old daughter for her first exam. Until then, I’d held my tongue. I’d smiled politely every time the supermarket-checkout clerk greeted her with “Hi, Princess”; ignored the waitress at our local breakfast joint who called the funny-face pancakes she ordered her “princess meal”; made no comment when the lady at Longs Drugs said, “I bet I know your favorite color” and handed her a pink balloon rather than letting her choose for herself. Maybe it was the dentist’s Betty Boop inflection that got to me, but when she pointed to the exam chair and said, “Would you like to sit in my special princess throne so I can sparkle your teeth?” I lost it.

“Oh, for God’s sake,” I snapped. “Do you have a princess drill, too?”

She stared at me as if I were an evil stepmother.

“Come on!” I continued, my voice rising. “It’s 2006, not 1950. This is Berkeley, Calif. Does every little girl really have to be a princess?”

My daughter, who was reaching for a Cinderella sticker, looked back and forth between us. “Why are you so mad, Mama?” she asked. “What’s wrong with princesses?”

Read the whole article.

She writes about the difficulties in raising her daughter in a culture that still constructs childhood along a clear gender binary — but one in which “female” not only means pink and princesses, but ambition and success, too. We rightly celebrate feminist milestones, like the fact that more girls are playing sports, that most colleges are at least 50% female, that medical and law schools have more female applicants than male applicants, that high-school girls are more highly-achieving than ever. The problem, though, is that these girls are loaded with the burden of not only being as successful and ambitious as their male peers, but looking and acting perfect while they do it. I look back at the girls in high school who were the Homecoming and Prom queens and princesses, and they epitomize this pressure: a single girl would be a two-sport athlete, a cheerleader, a club president, a member of Honor Society, and preparing to head off to a good four-year college. And sweet. And beautiful. I wasn’t exactly one of those girls (I was too mean), but I can certainly relate to the pressures of having to do well academically while being self-effacing and feminine enough to not come off as threatening. It’s exhausting. It takes a whole lot of effort, and a fair amount of money, too — because femininity is more of an achievement than a natural state, and it takes products and processes and little rituals and repeated denials and lots of work, on top of the “real” work of getting straight A’s or doing well at your job. So how Orenstein phrased it really hit home with me:

It doesn’t seem to be “having it all” that’s getting to them; it’s the pressure to be it all. In telling our girls they can be anything, we have inadvertently demanded that they be everything. To everyone. All the time.


102 thoughts on What’s wrong with princesses?

  1. I’m glad you wrote something about this; I was trying to get my thoughts together about it. And I realized that I had one of those “unisex” childhoods she discusses. Even though I really didn’t — I definitely had girl toys and my brothers had boy toys, but it just seems like it wasn’t nearly as in-your-face girly. Certainly not packaged, marketed girly.

    The thing that really gets me about the Disney Princess thing is the inclusion of Mulan, who had to pretend to be someone she wasn’t and finally got the man, and the honors, and defeated the Mongols, when she was confident enough to just be herself, which meant that she accepted that she was not going to be a mincing princess and she couldn’t deal with that by living as a man. And she’s included here mostly in the clothing she rejected as not being true to herself.

    God, I hate Disney.

  2. I actually like pink and purple as colors. I don’t even mind the princess thing in and of itself. It’s the incessant marketing of those as the only “feminine” choices for girls that rankles me. A girl should be able to be a pink princess one minute and a khaki-clad park ranger the next, if she is so inclined, and she shouldn’t have to be “pretty” or perfectly slender while doing any of it.

    But of course, we’ve all seen girls who grow up with “unisex” toys and colors and then, by their teens, refuse to play soccer because it’ll muss their nails and play dumb to attract (dumb and/or insecure) boys. So I’m not sure what buying tchotchkes at Club Libby Lu at age 7 actually portends. Maybe nothing.

  3. Maybe I don’t see it in gender terms; I just think that we’re superficially “treasuring” children way too goddamned much these days.

    I don’t think the Princess trope is about treasuring, exactly–it’s a kind of Pink Think, and the treasuring goes hand in hand with objectification. The princesses they’re told to model themselves after, particularly when they become the Princesses like those in the Disney collection, are all about looking beautiful.

  4. for christmas, my four-year-old niece got a pretty absymal gift – Princess Ariel’s preening station. Everyone cooed as she ran around in her pink princess dress and waved a purple plastic hairdryer over her hair, while her two-year-old blue-PJd brother played nearby with his racetrack.

    i was delighted when, after watching his sister dart off to play chase with her dad, my nephew sidled over, plunked himself on the little plastic tool, and started pretending to spritz hairspray, trim his bangs, and primp in the mirror. We were also pleased that my niece came back, changed into a dark green jumper that she unwrapped, and started doing tanagram puzzles and commandeering her own cars and space on the racetrack.

    she’s THE target audience of the Princess invasion, and they do know what little girls like and what they’d been told to like. but seeing her eventually drift to the racetrack and seeing my nephew primp at the mirror was just a nice reminder that disgusting as it may be, the Princess perpetuation is still wrong – any little kid is naturally interested in bright colors and baubles and simple characters, but it’s not taking over their lives. i liked sparklies and dolls and dresses when i was little too, but it wasn’t as all-pervasive then. I desperately wanted to have red hair like Ariel – but I wanted to BE Martin the Warrior, the little mouse hero in the Redwall series who just happened to be male. Hopefully despite Disney’s increased fervor lots of these little girls will eventually realize that “Cinderella just doesn’t DO anything.”

    (a good anecdote that I’m glad I bought for my niece last year is “Do Princesses Wear Hiking Boots?” Not particularly earth-shattering or Feminist-Perfect, but cute and well-intentioned and not dripping Disney from head to toe)

  5. I think maybe that the use of the term princess may have skipped a generation in terms of positive usage; my mother would use the term favorably, but I would generally use it negatively, as in a spoiled, imperious child. The cheap T-shirts at K-Mart tell the story now for children, I’m afraid.

  6. I look back at the girls in high school who were the Homecoming and Prom queens and princesses, and they epitomize this pressure: a single girl would be a two-sport athlete, a cheerleader, a club president, a member of Honor Society, and preparing to head off to a good four-year college. And sweet. And beautiful. I wasn’t exactly one of those girls (I was too mean), but I can certainly relate to the pressures of having to do well academically while being self-effacing and feminine enough to not come off as threatening. It’s exhausting.

    The word “threatening” leaps out at me, because that was a lot of this. I have a lot of female friends who are these ultra over-achievers and that’s the crux of it, this fear of being threatening. It really shows that society isn’t as cool with high-achieving women as we say we are, since we require said women to make a huge show of their submission to sexist norms. Like you are more permitted to have masculine achievements only if you can demonstrate that you are fully committed to your feminine role, somewhat like you only get your dessert if you eat your dinner.

    As for the overcherished children thing—I agree, but I don’t think that’s really a new thing. It’s just a new version of the old middle class hyper-pressure on children to conform.

  7. There are also pitfalls to not letting your children experiment with gender norms. I wanted nothing more than to be a pretty princess and my family wouldn’t let me. They were not feminist, but my grandmother hated long hair and dresses.
    To this day, I feel so much resentment that my family didn’t let me be feminine. People thought I was a boy a lot of the time. So now my hair is past my butt and I wear skirts about 70% of the time. I like it, but I also feel that I HAVE to do it. I think I would have always wanted long hair, but i’m also so attached that I have horrible dreams about my grandmother cutting it off. if i’d just been allowed to look how I wanted, I might not be so fixated.

  8. In a lot of ways, princess is to girls what superhero is to boys. You can argue that we need to present more and better superheroes to girls, but the princess thing will probably never disappear entirely. I agree that it shouldn’t be tied into a single company’s product, though.

    The princesses they’re told to model themselves after, particularly when they become the Princesses like those in the Disney collection, are all about looking beautiful.

    Don’t you dare insult my girl Belle like that! Don’t you remember that the best gift that the Beast gave her was full and free access to his library? I was drooling after it myself.

    But there’s a reason I was never big on Cinderella or Snow White. Too much primping and sighing involved. Wendy (not a princess) was bossy and a little whiny, but at least she got to do stuff.

  9. Mulan fucking rocks.

    That’s really all I have to say. And, I mean, yeah, it does suck that Disney’s all “look Mulan is a pretty pretty princess!” even though the whole AWESOME point of the AWESOME movie was that she wasn’t. But I mean, any kid that watches the movie is gonna get that badass-soldier-Mulan is the Mulan worth caring about.

    Also, “I’ll Make A Man Out Of You” is the best Disney song ever. And one of the best movie songs ever.

  10. I think Amanda is right to emphasize the “threatening” part of Jill’s analysis. Although both gender have all sorts of absurd rules about what they’re not allowed to do lest they be deemed “threatening,” the rules for girls are especially bad. There’s really no way to reconcile anything more thoughtful or ambitious than “Thinking causes wrinkles” with the princess version of femininity. As Amanda says, “you are more permitted to have masculine achievements only if you can demonstrate that you are fully committed to your feminine role,” but that seems to me to be that same as saying, you really aren’t permitted any masculine achievements. You can play at them, but in the end (or whenever a man tells you), you need to know your place and get back to enthusizing over dresses and make-up.

    For all of that, though, I don’t think that women should feel “guilty” or anything for wanting to be princessy or what have you every once in a while (not that my opinion on this subject should be of any real significance to anyone). But I think that version of femininity should be something they can pick up and play around with light-heartedly, and cast away again with the same insouciance, rather than some imprisoning set of rules or expectations that keep them cowed. It should be like listening to ’80’s music, harmless fun that you can’t be either completely serious or completely ironic about.

  11. I’m glad I’m not the only one that’s noticed this. I agree that there’s nothing wrong with the existence of Princess toys, but the coupling of the brand with the mini-purses, practice-primping tools, et cetera, is troubling. And I have DEFINITELY noticed the ‘resegregation’ of the toy sections. When I was little, my mom wouldn’t shop anywhere where there was a ‘boy aisle’ and ‘girl aisle’ clearly marked…now I think she’d have a hard time finding such a store.

    Princess Leia is the kind of princess I like. And mostly you find her, these days, in the ‘boy’ aisle, with, I kid you not, an employee apologizing to a shopper that he doesn’t have any versions with Amidala. Sheesh.

  12. In a lot of ways, princess is to girls what superhero is to boys.

    But Wonder Woman is a princess and a superhero.

    Which goes back to what Jill was saying, we have to look and act like princesses while doing the job of superheroes. Boys just have to be superheroes.

  13. Which goes back to what Jill was saying, we have to look and act like princesses while doing the job of superheroes. Boys just have to be superheroes.

    Because it’s so easy on boys when we tell them that they need to be fabulously wealthy, exactingly trained, the world’s greatest detective and a “millionaire playboy” in the tabloids. It’s not that unusual for male superheroes to be kings/princes, like Aquaman.

    Though I can’t think of too many princess/superheroes out there other than Wonder Woman. Maybe Princess Leia, though she doesn’t have any superpowers. Oh, and Storm from the X-Men. Other than that, it’s an either/or of superpowers or royalty.

  14. Because it’s so easy on boys when we tell them that they need to be fabulously wealthy, exactingly trained, the world’s greatest detective and a “millionaire playboy” in the tabloids. It’s not that unusual for male superheroes to be kings/princes, like Aquaman.

    Batman doesn’t have to have lipstick, perfectly coiffed red hair and high heels. He gets to run around unshaven and dissheveled underneath his cowl.

  15. It really shows that society isn’t as cool with high-achieving women as we say we are, since we require said women to make a huge show of their submission to sexist norms. Like you are more permitted to have masculine achievements only if you can demonstrate that you are fully committed to your feminine role, somewhat like you only get your dessert if you eat your dinner.

    In The Beauty Myth, Naomi Wolf credits this same reasoning with the rise in eating disorders. Women compensate for having more opportunities by limiting themselves in some other way.

    As a lifelong tomboy, I have to say that the rise of the princess culture makes me incredibly sad. As is mentioned in the article, when something becomes so pervasive, it actually begins to limit choices. If I were a child now, I’d probably have a pretty difficult time.

  16. It’s hard… I have a two year old girl and she loves the disney princesses. She also loves things that are typically “boy”. For instance, for Christmas we got her the Itsy Bitsy Spiderman, a toolbox with plastic tools so she can “work” (as she calls it) and building blocks along with a kitchen set, a Bella Dancerella DVD set (it’s a learn to dance set based on Cinderella), some dress up clothes and a Dora shopping cart. We also got her a few gender neutral music toys, bath stuff, puzzles, etc… I have to say that it’s gratifying to see her making dinner on her kitchen one minute and then playing with her tools the next, even if I do cringe when she watches the inane Bella Dancerella video. “Oh, we’ve been invited to the ball, we’ll have to do our hair and our nails and learn how to curtsy”. It’s definately something I struggle with, how do I teach her that she doesn’t have to be perfect, or beautiful or perfectly coiffed to be a kick-ass woman? Do I not let her play with the princess stuff at all? Right now I’ve gone for in moderation, but I worry when I hear her say stuff like “Look at me mommy, I beauful” (Isabelle talk for beautiful). I’m not sure I know what the answer is, but it is definately a struggle.
    I struggle with the idea of how all of this is going to affect my son as well. How do I teach him that he doesn’t just have to be into trucks, sports and guns in a world that says a “real man” must be macho and tough and not show emotion? Especially in my family where sons are desired and daughters are a disappointment. My father has already started with his “I have big plans for my grandson, we’re going to go fishing and build engines, etc…” while apparently his granddaughter can stay home and bake cookies. When Shawn was born, you would’ve thought I’d given birth to the second coming of Christ by the way my extended family acted “Oh, your father finally has a boy!!” (I come from a family of 5 girls, my parents never had a boy) “Isn’t it wonderful having a son?” and so on and so forth until I wanted to throw up. There’s not a thing that Shawn can do that Isabelle can’t, but you would never know it by the way people act. My hope is to raise them both with the knowledge that they can do anything they want and push them both to go as far as they can without expecting perfection from either one of them. How I am going to do this, I don’t know yet, but it’s something I’m working on.

  17. Batman doesn’t have to have lipstick, perfectly coiffed red hair and high heels. He gets to run around unshaven and dissheveled underneath his cowl.

    And never show one whit of emotion, except anger. And be tall, muscular and athletic. And speak in a deep, commanding voice. Each characteristic as damning as the coiffed hair & high heels.

  18. Disney appears to be marketing overtly to little girls, but they’re also (obviously) hitting up parents. I recently attended a baby shower for a good friend of mine (the first time one of my friends has had a baby), and was truly alarmed by the volume of PINK. Obviously, the friend has told everyone that she’s expecting a girl, but I was stunned by the number of “Thank Heaven for Little Girls” onesies, “Daddy’s Little Princess” bibs, etc. Just as bad was the woman who announced that men think they want sons, but really, they want to have daughters because they enjoy doting on them and having a “daddy’s girl.”

    (Tangent: Am I the only one who thinks there’s something fundamentally kinky/oedipal about the whole “daddy’s little girl” concept? I find the implication that women need to be sheltered and protected, the implication that men want to be manipulated, and that idea that’s a healthy relationship between fathers and daughters truly alarming.)

    I’m all in favor of letting children play creatively–I think it’s good for development and teaches them valuable skills (how to negotiate with others, how to play fair, etc). But forcing girls into princess mode needlessly limits their options. Children will certainly invent whatever it is they want, but presenting princessess as central component of a girl’s childhood is limiting at best and damaging at worst.

  19. We simply gave girls what they wanted

    A-yup. Girls were being hit with the feminine hammer long before Princesses came along to capitalize on it. The Princess line of products codifies the roles and makes them normative.

    When one thing is so dominant, then it’s no longer a choice: it’s a mandate, cannibalizing all other forms of play.

    A-yup. Really, there’s nothing wrong with the Princess message. It’s the absence of other messages which is the true evil.

    Disney found that a groom or prince is incidental to that fantasy, a regrettable necessity at best. Although they keep him around for the climactic kiss, he is otherwise relegated to the bottom of the toy box, which is why you don’t see him prominently displayed in stores.

    I don’t know from toys b/c I don’t shop for them. My 6-yr-old niece-in-law had a book of Disney Princesses (and a bed spread, and a trash can, and a million other things). The inside cover had a picture of each princess with a prince. The presence of a man in the life of the princess becomes codified and normative. I started reading Cinderella* to her and to my 8-yr-old nephew-in-law**, and very near the start of the story there’s a line about Cinderella dreaming of falling in love. I added “going to college and becoming an accountant” in front of the falling in love part. Back to the point, right up front in the story, finding a prince is laid out as the goal.

    *I must say, that book used some pretty advanced vocabulary, which I have to applaud. I stopped to explain a word about once per page.

    **Man, those kids totally had the gender roles down. Earlier in the evening, during a discussion of Santa’s reindeer, I told them to goal should not be to pul the sleigh, the goal should be to be in the sleigh being pulled. I directed the comment to the girl that she could be Santa instead of Rudolph. They both instantly came out with, “But she’s a girl! She has to be Mrs. Claus.” Oh well, there is only so much a spinster aunt can do in the course of one evening.

  20. And never show one whit of emotion, except anger. And be tall, muscular and athletic. And speak in a deep, commanding voice. Each characteristic as damning as the coiffed hair & high heels.

    TPHMT. These posts always seem to devolve into how bad things are for men too.

    Look, there’s no doubt that the current social structure does have harmful impact on men as well. Nonetheless, as men still hold the vast majority of power in this world, that selfsame social structure also benefits men. It keeps (white) men in power. How does it benefit women? There would have to be some sense of equality of impact for the characteristics to be “as damning”. Yet, there isn’t. Men benefit, thus getting a trade-off for the harm. Where’s our trade-off?

  21. I struggle with the idea of how all of this is going to affect my son as well. How do I teach him that he doesn’t just have to be into trucks, sports and guns in a world that says a “real man” must be macho and tough and not show emotion?

    And how do we teach our sons that girls don’t have to be perfect and have their nails done and know how to curtsy? How do we teach our daughters that boys don’t have to be into trucks and guns and are allowed to show emotions other than anger?

  22. My kids were totally into the pink girly ruffles when they were `princess’ age (4–7?). The older one went thru a harry potter all in black, and now is wild for anime characters and goth. Younger one is more mainstream in outlook—long hair, necklaces, makeup , as opposed to alternating between her father’s wornout clothes and goth lolly. To the point where she actually attempted _Lolita_.

    I used to worry about it, but I stopped wearing dresses when I was a young teen, cuz I could see women were the underclass, and I didn’t like it. Otoh, I adore frills, glitz, beads, —bling (and texture) in all its forms, though I can’t be bothered to wear it.

    The thing is, like some other posters have noticed, we’ve associated all that color and texture and sparklies with being girly, as opposed to being something many people of both sexes [would if allowed by cultural constraints] enjoy. *Any* kid will draw all over hirself with markers if allowed; then they learn, boys aren’t sposed to, girls put it on the face and nails. Really it’s too bad that `dressing up’ is no longer a sex-neutral activity for kids.

    And I note, even my girly girl is *disgusted*, with very little input from me, with all the pink. Made me smile, and the shopping endurable, to listen to her in high dudgeon.

    So long as you have discussions with kids about what’s going on, I think letting them experiment allows them to figure out the best way to cope with this crap.

  23. What really gets me is the lasting impact and associations that this stuff builds up. At 23, I was told twice in the last week that I “don’t seem like the kind of girl who loves pink”. Which is odd, because I do love pink. And it turns out I’m perfectly capable of loving it without having any interest in the hair/nails/fashion/Princess vibe it apparently implies.

  24. Look, there’s no doubt that the current social structure does have harmful impact on men as well. Nonetheless, as men still hold the vast majority of power in this world, that selfsame social structure also benefits men. It keeps (white) men in power. How does it benefit women? There would have to be some sense of equality of impact for the characteristics to be “as damning”. Yet, there isn’t. Men benefit, thus getting a trade-off for the harm. Where’s our trade-off?

    Men die earlier, it’s not acceptable for men to step off of the career track to stay home with the kids, men are overwhelmingly the victims of testostorone fueled violence. Look, I agree the princess thing is a bit strange, but let’s not pretend that woman are the only ones harmed by societal norms and expectations.

  25. Something tells me Jeff hasn’t tried to run in high heels and a bustier.

    Actually, you’d be wrong ’bout that — at least the heels (and not very often).

    But I think you missed my point. Superheroes are to boys as princesses are to girls — an impossible to obtain role model. No argument that the average female superhero is even more ridiculous than the average male one.

  26. JeffL said:

    But I think you missed my point. Superheroes are to boys as princesses are to girls — an impossible to obtain role model. No argument that the average female superhero is even more ridiculous than the average male one.

    The point is that we’re talking about girl role models here, not boy role models. I understand that it’s very hard to wish you had Batman’s steely gaze and rugged jaw line, but it’s not relevant to this particular discussion.

    Incidentally, I think it’s sort of funny you cited Batman as the epitome of an impossible-to-emulate role model, given that in the traditional line-up of the Justice League, he’s the only one who’s completely human.

  27. Agreed Frumious B… I did mention that in passing, but it’s definately my biggest concern. Not in the exact same words, but I did say I struggle with how to teach my daughter that she doesn’t have to be beautiful, perfect or perfectly coiffed to be a kick-ass woman, especially in a society that tells her that she must be or she is not acceptable. The fact of the matter is, I’m not really into make-up, nails, curtsying or dancing, so I suspect (hope!) she’ll get a fair dose of that from me the older she gets, but it’s hard when they’re in high school and society is telling them one thing while you try to tell them another. I think my daughter will also pick up on the “boys are allowed to have feelings and show emotions” from her father, who is actually more emotional than I am. However, in a different household (like the one I grew up, where my father had a long list of stuff men were simply not allowed to do, because it would make them “girly” or “gay”) I don’t know what the answer is. And not to make it sound like we’re perfect, because we’re most certainly not… my husband buys into a lot of this “pink is for girls, blue is for boys” crap and I don’t know how to get him to understand that by supporting that, he supports the rigid gender roles he claims to despise. The biggest struggle for me, is how do I teach my children (I have a 2 year old daughter and 5 month old son) that it’s ok to be whatever they want when society is screaming that they must fit into these rigid gender roles. Also, how do you teach your daughter that she doesn’t have to be thin, beautiful, nice, perfectly made up, with a perfect house and a perfect job when you yourself feel like a failure on a daily basis because you have stretch marks, are overweight and hate cleaning? It’s bad enough that I’ve internalized this crap, I really don’t want her to, and I don’t know how to avoid it at this point.

  28. But I think you missed my point. Superheroes are to boys as princesses are to girls — an impossible to obtain role model. No argument that the average female superhero is even more ridiculous than the average male one.

    Thing is, superheroes aren’t the only role model for boys, certainly not like princesses are for girls. Boys have cops, firemen, cowboys, Indians, construction workers (i.e., the entire lineup of the Village People), most cartoon characters (animals are defaulted to male), doctors, lawyers, presidents, mad scientists, robots, race car drivers, congressmen, astronauts, bikers, you name it. Most with a more complex set of allowable emotions than Batman.

    Girls, OTOH, get princesses. And even the role models who aren’t princesses are getting shoehorned into the category regardless of how well it fits (i.e., Mulan or Pocahontas). Or they get toys geared to shopping, beauty or taking care of infants.

  29. It all starts so early, now.

    I recently had a boy baby, and thus have been haunting stores that sell “kid’s” clothing and toys. My disturbance has two parts: first, how girly and pink all the “girl” crap these stores have, and second, how the little that’s out there for boy babies MAKES SURE that you know it’s for a boy, so you don’t mistakenly dress your little girl in it.

    I was in an infant clothing store yesterday–a store that advertises itself as INFANT, not girl infant–and browsing through their after xmas sale racks. Rack after rack after rack of clothing that was pink or had flowers and ruffles. Even the clothing in the traditionally “neutral” colors had pink thread and ribbons attached. Someone else finally asked where the boy’s clothing was. The salesperson pointed back to a corner of the store. There was an itty bitty section of wall dedicated to boy’s clothing–mainly blue, and all with things like #1 boy! on it. None of it on sale, either.

    That’s been my experience with almost all the stores dedicated to kid’s clothing–the boys are an afterthought, and the girls’ clothing is awful.

    And I get yelled at for letting my boy suck on a pink binky. Hey, it came in a multi pack and given our ability to lose binkies, I really don’t care. And, if a pink binky “turns him gay” well, then, he was well on his way already, I’d guess. 😉

  30. Superheroes are to boys as princesses are to girls — an impossible to obtain role model.

    No offense, but that’s bunk.
    Male super-heroes are a fantastically varied bunch, and you’d be hard pressed to find an over-arching stereotype that fits them all now. You picked Batman as an impossible archtype to pick- but that’s the wonderful thing for boys in comics- they don’t *have* to pick Batman.
    They could pick the Thing- ugly as sin, but heart of gold.
    They could pick Sandman- Middle-aged, slightly over-weight guy who uses his brain to solve problems.
    They could pick Spider-Man- wise cracking science geek turned super-hero by accident.
    There are over-weight, thin, tall, short, attractive, ugly, smart, stupid, straight, gay, young, old, and everything in between heroes for boys to choose from. Sure, your son will never gain the powers of a spider after being chomped by a radioactive one, but that’s not even the point, and the comics are pretty good about pointing that out- the powers aren’t what make them a hero (they’re just what make them interesting to read about), it’s the willingness to “do the right thing.”
    If every hero were like Batman, I might bite, but, as it stands- no way.
    Moving on:
    I feel for the author- I have a 3-year-old niece, and buying presents for her was a real struggle. The father’s family are rather more “traditionally” minded, and have flooded my niece’s toybox with “pretty pink princesses,” toy kitchens, toy vacuums, etc. The father was rather annoyed when I gave her a bunch of toy robots and Marvel heroes that she found in my old room. Trying to find toys that I didn’t find objectionable to buy for her, but that he wouldn’t pitch the minute my back was turned, was a challange. Mr. Potatohead with a variety of extra parts wasn’t bad (although even that suffers the princess syndrome- the extra parts come in sets like “Glamour Spud” or “Princess Spud”), but I figured that Lincoln Logs, building blocks, and Marble Madness were safe.

  31. Not trying to derail this, but I think there are fundamental difference between princesses and superheroes:

    Superheroes, though they have power, are defined in a large part by what they *do* rather than what they *are*. This is why Batman and Iron Man get to be superheroes despite not having powers. There’s even a lesser cadre of male role models in most of these books – there’s typically the young male sidekick (Robin, Jimmy Olsen, etc.) and a whole host of police, firefighters, etc. Indeed, a super that takes the position that their abilities make them the only important one is almost always a villain (the only exception I can think of, The Incredibles, is another Disney creation).

    If you’re not a princess, though, you’re nothing. Sure, you’re not allowed to *say* that, because it’s not princessly, but there’s no respect for the royal entourage; there’s no message that it’s all right for a girl to be anything *but* a princess (indeed, making Mulan a princess co-opts any such message). Part of it may be this weird aristocracy-meets-democracy idea Disney has that a princess is just someone who’s especially attractive and nice.

  32. My daughter seems to have lived her life in fast-forward. She cut teeth at 2 months, walked at 8 months, and spoke in complete sentences by the time she was a year and a half old. We had the terrible twos early, and we’re doing teen angst now at 11 and a half. When I look back over her likes and dislikes, I remember her liking the princess thing for about 2 months, very violently, when she was about 2 and a half, then she moved onto Xena and Buffy as her major heroes. She ran around pretending to slay vampires and threw pie plates and hollered. We called her Danger Dork.

    Now at 11 she’s got a trail of dismembered Barbies and Bratz dolls in her wake and she’s full on techno-obsessed. Laptops, iPods, Fly computers, cell phones, the works. She’s brilliant and ambitious and couldn’t give two shits if her hair isn’t perfect (although she’s the pickiest about clothes I’ve ever seen – everything earth toned or you can bugger off). She’s kind of a bitch, but in the best way – you can always rely on her to bring the snark, and bring it hard. I

  33. I don’t want to hijack this thread & turn it into a Superhero discussion. So my last thoughts on that:

    Zuzu@30, you’re right, and I hadn’t considered how many other role models boys have, compared with girls.

    Roy@32, as a life-long comics geek, I disagree with you pretty strongly, but this isn’t the place for that discussion. If you want to talk about it at http://www.79soul.com/, do a post & I’ll happily comment.

    As for girls and princesses:

    My 6 year old has, for at least the past 3 years, played the “Princesses Game” with 4 of her friends, all girls. Basically, they each pretend to be one of the Disney princesses, and rescue each other from imagined horrors. It’s a game that started in pre-school, and continues to this day.

    One girl doesn’t like princesses. Doesn’t own any princess stuff, doesn’t wear princess dress-up clothes, none of it. But she wants to play, too, so somewhere along the way came up with a creative solution. Each and every time they play, she’s Raja, the tiger from Alladin.

  34. They could knock off the pink assumption. But remember, “Well, not just me, all girls are princesses. Even snotty, two-face bullies like you, Lavinia!”

  35. I think the important thing, as several commenters have pointed out, is not a not princess message so much as a princess or whatever message. My brother and I were both raised with a lot of freedom in terms of gender roles; although one side of the family pushed kind of princess, and the other side pushed more anti-princess, my parents stayed decidedly princess-neutral. My mom loves to tell the story of the Christmas she spent hours in line for a Cabbage Patch doll that I left face-down under the tree – until my brother came along and “adopted” it. And one of my favorite pictures is of the tea party I had with one of my friends where she and I dressed up in my dad’s suits, and my brother and his best friend put on my dress-up dresses. I grew up wanting to be either a ballerina, a race car driver, a horseback rider, or a helicopter pilot, all with equal intensity.

    Now that I’m (ostensibly) an adult, I do wear some makeup, and I do wear heels to work, but my brother’s the better cook and I’m the one with the awesome tool kit (got a laser level for Chrismas – so excited). And while I definitely did feel that societal pressure to be everything, I also felt a lot of freedom to not be anything I didn’t want to, since I’d been raised with the freedom to be anything.

  36. One of the first toys I gave my twin grandsons once they moved from generic infant toys was a toy kitchen. They loved pretending to fix me tea and cook me lunch. Now, at four, they are dragging chairs across the kitchen to help with food prep, either with me or their grandfather. They also help with sweeping the floor and vacuuming.

    My own daughters, when they were little, all went through tomboy/girlie phases … and I tried to give them a wide choice of what to wear. Mostly they chose jeans. Even today, as young adults, they vary their wardrobes and tastes as suits them. IE #1 & #3 have to wear uniforms at work (paramedic & restaurant manager) so they tend to dress up when not on duty.

    The best advice to give parents is “RELAX”… regardless of marketing YOU hold the checkbook, YOU make the purchasing decisions, and that all children are going to try just about everything because everything is new and exciting. Give both boys and girls a wide selection, and if they gravitate towards one thing more don’t start overanalyzing it (one of my friends, a lifelong tomboy – has a three year old daughter who will not leave the house without necklaces, bracelets, a purse and her babydoll … friend agonized over ‘what she did wrong’ but now realizes that her daughter is not a clone of mommy). Very few preschoolers in love with Ariel are going to be dressing as her as college freshmen.

  37. You know what? I adored dress-up, played almost exclusively with dolls and tea-cups and little embroidery kits and jewelry-making thingies while I was growing up, and still wound up in a competitive profession, far outside of the heteronormative in a lot of ways.

    I spent adolescence as a goth, which is an overt refusal of gender norms, sure, but still involved a tremendous amount of self-generated pressure surrounding my appearance. I can remember lying awake late after a night of studying (I was also a compulsive academic overachiever) being unable to go to sleep until I had mentally picked out an outfit that was going to be “cool” enough for the next day. The only thing goth got me out of was being treated like a girl (which meant being treated like I was stupid, in the part of the country where I grew up).

    Given my history, I’m surprised the extent to which I am completely, irrationally enraged when one of my sisters (not her mother) gives to one of our nieces all sorts of Disney princess paraphernelia, and gives her talks on how you have to make your ears all sparkly and paint your nails and do your hair and walk pretty. Tea parties and costume jewelry didn’t turn me into a mindless Stepford wife — why am I so afraid that will happen to my niece?

  38. Actually, on the note of the ‘impossible standard’ to be successful yet beautiful and non-threatening…

    I’d say I’m an attractive young woman, or something. I think so, and it seems that for once in my life, other people think so. Many men on campus talk to me and show some sort of intetiful. Alright, nice.

    Then I noticed something about my conversations with the majority of men. Mind you, I am not ‘successful’ by society’s standards — I make mediocre grades at a community college and can’t work because I’m disabled. However, I can talk a lot about social issues, astronomy, spirituality, religion, a little bit of history… in any case, I think I’m pretty intelligent. But we would be talking, and I’d start talking, and I could tell that they were not interested in what I was saying, but were interested in talking to me. This confused me a lot because it made absolutely no sense to me. WTF? If you want to talk to me, shouldn’t you show a vague amount of interest in what I say?

    One day I’m walking around with my now ex-boyfriend. We went to the Starbucks and started talking to another man who was outside drinking coffee on the patio furniture. he and my then-boyfriend talked for at least an hour. This guy hardly made any reference to my existance, and when I did talk, I knew he wanted me to just shut up.

    Then it hit me — the reaction I get from men is that they think that because I’m beautiful to them, that I have little other purpose than to be on their arm or on my boyfriend’s arm. To be intelligent, to talk about feminism or the big bang theory or religion, is me talking out of turn and being out of line. I am apparently not allowed to be goodlooking and intelligent at the same time.

    That was a wicked depressing realization.

  39. Lorelei

    I’d say your experience was one of being with boys, not men.

    One of the things I love about Beauty and the Beast is that “beauty” in the title doesn’t really mean “Belle”.

  40. Darleen, there’s a wide selection of things you could buying your children that isn’t gendered if you have money. If you’re keeping low budget and trying to buy stuff at KMart and Kohls, you’re not going to have that many choices.

  41. Lorelei

    I’d say your experience was one of being with boys, not men.

    One of the things I love about Beauty and the Beast is that “beauty” in the title doesn’t really mean “Belle”.

    First of all, I hated Beauty and the Beast because here’s the Beast abusing her and she MAGICALLY CHANGED HIM SO THAT HE DIDN’T HURT HER ANYMORE. I rewatched the movie when I was older and all I could think was, ‘DTMFA!’

    I’m also liking this implication that you think that I think my beauty is skin-deep or some shit. Did you miss that I think I’m intelligent?

    Secondly, I have that problem with the talking-to-men for people who are 18/19/20 and men who are in their late 20s, and men who are in their 30s, and middle-aged men. I get the exact same reaction from the majority of them.

    I am so tired of this ‘boys do that, not *men* thing,’ because in the end, men were boys and men have usually not outgrown their socialization.

  42. I’m also liking this implication that you think that I think my beauty is skin-deep or some shit. Did you miss that I think I’m intelligent?

    I only take that back, I read a little bit too far into your comment. Sorry about that!

  43. I’m late, and still reading the article, but:

    “I look back at the girls in high school who were the Homecoming and Prom queens and princesses, and they epitomize this pressure: a single girl would be a two-sport athlete, a cheerleader, a club president, a member of Honor Society, and preparing to head off to a good four-year college. And sweet. And beautiful.”

    In my high school (1996-2000), every single one of the people who held offices in student government was female. All four years. Many of them played sports, were in band, etc. and etc. They were the center of the social life at our school among the preps and jocks and probably wore themselves out every day.

    Scary how much it matches the above-quoted observation.

  44. double post… sorry, but:

    Lorelei

    I’d say your experience was one of being with boys, not men.

    “No true Scotsman…”

  45. Lorelei

    Whoa! You know that ass-u-me meme, right? I wasn’t implying a thing about you. I was addressing the “beauty v brains” statement.

    The core theme of BATB deals with not judging people on their looks. Beast became beast because as a callow youth he treated an old woman horribly. Beast doesn’t love Belle because she’s “pretty” (Belle is not the most beautiful girl in her village), he falls in love with her over the course of time… in the library, playing in the snow, seeing her compassion. His love of her is so true he lets her go, even if it means his death.

    Beast matures (maturing can seem like magic) and sees that beauty truly is something more than the skin one is draped in.

    My most rewarding relationships with males have been with men who both recognize and enjoy the intellectual side of the relationship. A lot of people don’t adequately mature, but there are plenty who do.

    and when I was raising four girls I didn’t have much $$ at all…my shopping was done at Target, Mervyn’s or some second-hand kids clothes stores. It’s a little harder, but choices are there.

    Heck the kitchen set I got for the twins I got out of a mailorder catelogue for way cheaper than any toystore.

  46. Where did the boys learn it, if not from the men?

    Sometimes they learn it from the women.

    Please tell me this is not a variation on “well, she was wearing a miniskirt, what was I supposed to do?!”

  47. How does it benefit women? There would have to be some sense of equality of impact for the characteristics to be “as damning”. Yet, there isn’t. Men benefit, thus getting a trade-off for the harm. Where’s our trade-off?

    There used to be a trade-off: financial security in return for subordinating yourself to a man. But the rules have changed.

    It’s true that patriarchy favors rich, white, old men. The rest of the men get screwed, thrown crumbs from the table and told that maybe, someday, possibly, they too might someday be rich and get all of the privileges that their “betters” get. And, hey, in the meantime, you get to have your own group to oppress the same way you get oppressed.

    The only way to dismantle the patriarchy is to point out to men that under a patriarchy, they lose, too. Otherwise, all they see is that women and minorities are taking away the few tiny crumbs that they do get, and they will dig in their heels and resist any progress.

    Why do you want to create enemies where we could have allies?

  48. Please tell me this is not a variation on “well, she was wearing a miniskirt, what was I supposed to do?!”

    Oh no no. This is just a variation on “it’s always Mommy’s fault.”

  49. The rest of the men get screwed, thrown crumbs from the table and told that maybe, someday, possibly, they too might someday be rich and get all of the privileges that their “betters” get.

    And making more money on average with a high school diploma than women do with two years of college. And get the privilege of seeing their incomes rise when they have children, rather than decline, like womens’ do. You know, little meaningless table scraps like that. Crumbs.

    The only way to dismantle the patriarchy is to point out to men that under a patriarchy, they lose, too.

    I am not really enchanted by this vision of man as sociopathic six-year-old. They “lose” inasmuch as profiting from others’ subordination is bad for one’s character, and sure, that’s bad for them, and sad, too. It’s not equivalent to “getting screwed” materially.

    Lying to men in order to get them somehow on our side is not a good idea, because men are not that stupid. Appealing to their sense of morality and basic decency, which, you know, many of them do have, is a much better idea than making up stories to make them feel like oppressed victims too. Most men smart or decent enough to be feminists are insulted by that kind of patronizing nonsense, and the ones who aren’t are not reliable allies.

  50. #52 evilfizz

    No, I’m addressing the mothers who cater to their boys so much they grow up not ever making their own beds or doing their own laundry or ever entering the kitchen at all.

  51. sophinisba

    Point of curiousity…

    I have never personally witnessed a man getting a raise, nor concurrently a woman getting a pay cut, based on the birth of a child.

    In what industry/business did you see that occur?

  52. I did say I struggle with how to teach my daughter that she doesn’t have to be beautiful, perfect or perfectly coiffed to be a kick-ass woman

    Julie: I’m not picking on you in particular, you just happen to have brought up a point which I feel needs further inspection.

    My point is that it is not enough for women to teach girls that they don’t have to wear pink and be agreeable. It’s not enough for men to teach boys that they don’t have to be rugged and hide their emotions. Women have to teach both boys and girls that girls have other options. Women have to teach both boys and girls that boys have other options. Likewise, men have to direct those lessons to both (all) sets of children.

    Girls can have all the powerful, female role models in the world, but eventually, like at birth, they have to enter a world which includes boys. If those boys haven’t seen powerful female role models, they will expect the girls to be pink and agreeable, and girls will probably acquiesce. Males do, after all, account for around 50% of the population, and there is something to be gained from getting along with them.

    Regender that for boys.

  53. Darleen, I’ll venture to unpack what I think Sophonisba is referring to. Let’s say that I work in an entry-level job, and Matt, who was hired at the same time I was works in the same job. When we started, we might have had the same qualifications, and we’ve both done pretty well at our jobs. Two years into the job, I get pregnant, and I go on maternity leave for as long as I can (here in Canada, that’s close to a year). When I come back, Matt has a year of seniority that I don’t have, because although his wife is expecting, he won’t take parental leave. He gets his third-year annual pay raise. I don’t get mine. So his income is now higher. When our supervisor’s job opens up, Matt’s got a year of experience that I don’t have, and while I may have worked really hard to catch up, that year really means a lot, when it’s the difference between two and three years. So Matt gets the promotion, and jumps up a pay grade.

    Fast forward another three years, when hypothetical hubby and I sprog again, and again, I take my mat. leave in order to do so. I’ve got two kids at home, and I’m working the second shift. Matt’s wife takes care of the second shift in his household, which is great for his career. He can work late, because his wife picks their kid up from daycare. He’s up for another promotion–one that I’m not even considered for, because I’m too far down the ladder at this point–and he gets it, and jumps another pay grade, bully for him. I’ve sacrificed another year’s seniority and opportunity for promotion to my family.

  54. Darleen,

    I took back the assumption I made about your comment on Beauty and the Beast. Sorry about that.

    But the Beast was abusing her! He hurt her father, he was hurting her, she was scared shitless of him, if he got pissed about something she said, he’d start throwing things around and breaking her stuff…

    A lot of abusive men have, um, ‘reasons’ for being that way (abused as children, saw their mother being treated that way, whatever), but that doesn’t excuse their behavior and I feel like BATB taught girls to ‘wait around’ until their asshole boyfriend ‘matured’ and became a Prince Charming. This does not often happen in real life: abusers stay abusers.

  55. there’s a wide selection of things you could buying your children that isn’t gendered if you have money.

    Shop Goodwill in the rich neighborhoods. Why does anyone buy new toddler clothes, anyway? OK, they do eventually wear out so at some point new things need to be introduced, but geez, it’s not like the a toddler or infant knows what’s what. And considering how quickly they grow, buying new stuff is like throwing money out the window.

  56. Shop Goodwill in the rich neighborhoods.

    I definitely advocate this, using second-hand clothing for infants and toddlers because, wtf, they outgrow it and mess it up anyway.

    What I was trying to say was more that, at least IME, less-expensive clothing tend to be terribly gendered, but if you go to a nicer store, you have slightly better luck finding neutral baby clothes.

    Rich neighborhood would probably help that, although not everyone has a rich neighborhood around them. But that’s besides the point! You are absolutely right. 🙂

  57. Jennie, wouldn’t that kinda balance out in the long run given that your hypothetical hubby has the same advantages at his job that Matt has at his?

  58. jennie

    Well, I don’t see your scenario as being some sort of any female conspiracy…if all other things are equal and promotion depends on seniority

    At my office I’ve seen women attorneys coming back within a couple of weeks of birth (their husbands stay home with the newborn) and I’ve seen a lot of men attorneys take paternal leave (which gets them transferred to a non-critical position until they can regain the time)

    Life is full of tradeoffs. We are faced with choices over and over again.

    Sexism does exist. Without a doubt. My eldest daughter is a paramedic (private amublance service) and one of the reasons she will not apply to become a paramedic with fire department is because the rampant big boys with big toys attitude she has already encountered when dealing with them is, for her choice, not worth going through.

    She’s halfway through RN training right now and loving it.

    However, if person “A sacrifices family to get ahead in business/entertainment/et al, while person “B” sez ‘it ain’t worth not seeing my kids and spouse regularly”…it doesn’t make person “B”s choice less valuable.

    It’s just different choices.

  59. Okay, Darleen, I created a story to illustrate a broader social trend: woman are under far greater social pressure to stay home with kids and their careers suffer more than men’s do, even when women and men both have kids.

    Where, precisely did I cry conspiracy?

    You commented that you’d never seen a female get a pay cut and a male receive a raise. I don’t think women get pay cuts, but I think that overall, women’s salaries don’t keep up with men’s, especially if the women have kids and take mat. leave.

    Sure, you can say it’s all about “choice,” but no choice is made in a vaccuum. Lots of factors combine to make it more difficult for women, in particular, to keep their footing in a society that priviliges men, men’s experiences, and men’s goals.

    If my hypothetical Matt chooses to stay late and never see his kids, he’s not going to receive nearly as much censure as I would for the same “choice.”

  60. I don’t discount that societal expectations for men and women differ. Heck, any individual’s behavior is under lots of conflicting pressures from the moment we hit the snooze alarm until we flick off the tv/radio/puter at night and our head hits the pillow.

    Where the rubber meets the road is how we each individually assess what we actually want out of life, what we truly value and what we can do to achieve the goals we want to reach..not what we think others want us to reach.

    I was a SAHM for 16 years. It’s not been easy to realize that moving back into the working world puts me 16 years behind everyone.

    But I wouldn’t trade one day of my life I had with my daughters during that time.

    My choice, my responsibility, and I’m not a societal “victim.”

  61. My choice, my responsibility, and I’m not a societal “victim.”

    Oh, lookie, she mentioned victims! Of course we all know that feminists have created in women a belief in their own victimization—instead of, you know, women being victimized, both by sexism and attempts at denial. I do love the implication of ‘Oh, just deal with it’—is that boasting? By the way, the ‘Blog for Bush’ button on your blog does tend to suggest your agenda here is closer to Phyllis Schlafly’s than, say, Gloria Steinam’s.

    However, if person “A sacrifices family to get ahead in business/entertainment/et al, while person “B” sez ‘it ain’t worth not seeing my kids and spouse regularly”…it doesn’t make person “B”s choice less valuable.

    It’s just different choices.

    Except in the real world, where the choices are often limited specifically to one gender or another, and where women do not make as much money as do men. It’s not ‘choices’—-it’s sexism. The business world is designed for men by men. You’re very eager to dismiss sexism as something that’s just an accident or merely one of several equal factors, instead of the factor.

  62. ginmar

    How about doing a search on my site and seeing if I agree with Schafly on anything? I’m old enough that I found her a cartoonish hag back during the ERA days.

    Jaysus on a Pony, get OVER the straw-conservative thing.

    I live in the real world and live in America where Sharia doesn’t exist (yet) and I have had freedom to pursue what ever I want.

    The reality is (as this post was about) no one can have it all.

    You know, it’s not like it’s only women who walk away from [potential] lucrative careers…but men do, too.

    What kind of egalitarianism is being promoted that says men and women are exactly the same and only the stereotype male template of predatory in career and eschewing family is genuine?

    There is always going to be someone who makes more money, paints a better picture, sings a sweeter song, writes a better novel, invents a better mousetrap than you do … so you can either get on with your life and enjoy it, or sit in a dark room and spin soulsucking stories about the unfairness of it all.

  63. Yeah Frumious B, I actually couldn’t agree with you more. I’m sort of a newcomer to feminism, so a lot of what I post is me trying to flesh out ideas and I don’t always do so completely. This an area I’ve been struggling with a lot lately, so all the comments and discussion are great. I don’t feel picked on, more than anything I wanted to clarify that I wasn’t trying to turn this into “but what about the boys?” because while I am worried about how to teach my son, I am far more concerned about the effect of this stuff on my daughter. I think you are absolutely right though, that teaching our boys that girls can do anything they want is a huge part of it.

  64. Uh, Darleen, saying Person B and Person A doesn’t cut it, and your anecdotes simply don’t impress. I remember you from other boards. If you don’t want to live under something appraoching shari’a law, I do suggest you reconsider your political choices. You as an attorney may escape the fate of the peasants, but that’s exactly the point. You can also pretend that scads of guys are staying home with the kiddies, but down the economic ladder both men and women are working—while women do all the housework and the childcare.

  65. Jennie, wouldn’t that kinda balance out in the long run given that your hypothetical hubby has the same advantages at his job that Matt has at his?

    And you wonder why people find you irritating.

    Darleen, I think where you’re tripping up is on the choice aspect — just because there are options available to work or not to work after having a kid, or how much time is taken off, or what have you, doesn’t mean that there’s real choice operating.

    A woman who’s trying to juggle career and family is the one doing the juggling. More often than not, her husband — you know, the father of her children — will not take any significant, career-harming leave after a child is born. Nor will he, even if he has the best of intentions, shoulder an equal burden of the childcare later on. There are several reasons for this: one is that there’s more societal pressure on the woman to take on the burden of childcare. Another is that there’s less social sanction to the man if he doesn’t take on an equal share or quit his job. But there’s also, despite stated policy in some workplaces and federal law, considerable pressure on a man not to take any kind of leave lest he be viewed as not terribly committed to his career — moreso than a woman, in fact, since she’s expected to take time off.

    That’s, of course, if leave time is available at all to either parent without the threat of losing one’s job entirely.

  66. Back when I was a young boy, I used to really like “My Little Pony”. The thing is, admitting this to anybody but my closest friends would’ve been social suicide, and as a child, I didn’t see that a girl would be castigated for liking, say, “Transformers”.

    I did live in a very liberal neighboorhood, though.

    I think comic books really aren’t analogous to toys; the superhero comic is, generally speaking, a male power fantasy, and it often involves reversing expected roles; the scrawny, unpopular nerd becomes the super-strong hero, the conventionally powerless man finds a way to be the equal of god-like beings, etc.

    Toys, on the other hand, generally reflect a conservative adult set of specified roles; the narratives created to market toys are about caracters enthusiastically throwing themselves into perscribed roles.

    The villains are inherently evil, with no redeeming features, and the heros are unblemished bearers of light (Dissastisfaction with this is one of the reasons anime became popular, incidentally; Villains that care about each other or that are actually threatening are more interesting then the 1d dorks that American cartoons have always had).

    One thing I didn’t notice as a young boy was that, while I, essentially, couldn’t be girly, a girl couldn’t really be, uh, boy-y; female characters may be “tomboys” but they generally still adhere to feminine beauty standards. You’ll very rarely find an exceptionally hairy heroine.

    See, the thing is… in this patriarchal society, you can’t switch roles; look at how the term “metrosexual” is used as an insult.

    Not, of course, to say that rich white men aren’t at the top of the heap; women certainly suffer disproportionately. But to say that the patriarchy doesn’t hurt men is to assume that men inherently want to be shoehorned into the stereotypically male role, which in itself strikes me as… patriarchal.

    Anyway, one thing that adult analysts overlook in these kinds of things are the way children actually play.

    I grew up in the late 80s and early 90s, and one of the things my mother worried about was that all these liscenced toys would stifle the imagination, by creating backgrounds for charcters rather then letting us imagine our own. In reality, though, I generally didn’t care about or even know the background for the characters. I can still remember the powers I made up for them, but I have no idea what the marketers said.

    Actual reseach about how kids play, and what attitudes they have towards toys, would be fairly useful for these kinds of discussions.

  67. There are also very different attitudes towards a mother on mat leave and a father on pat leave. Men who decide to concentrate on families for a year (or however long) are considered stable and loyal; for them, having a family and caring for it is a sign of being well-rounded and an all-around good guy, qualities that are definitely considered in an application for promotion. When a woman takes her mat leave, it’s assumed that she considers the family to be more important than her job, she won’t be loyal to the job in the long run, and so instead of it making her look well-rounded, it means she’s considered a risk for leaving her career to be with the family, and why bother grooming her for the management slot, then? That double-standard is definitely sexist.

  68. Oh, and my mother also worried that violent toys would make me violent.

    Ultimately I’ve grown up to love fake violence but to intensely dislike real violence.

    Kids are more complicated then people realise.

  69. I was young when I had my kids and removed from the pressures of middle class acheivement. I had one boy and two girls over the span of a little over three years. I was idealistic and very poor.

    I could not afford to shop at regular retails outlets nor have television for most of their early years. But still, even among yard sales and thrift stores, I had to make a conscious effort to find clothing and toys that were not part of Disney, Hans-Barberra or any other cartoon – kiddie franchise. Even the beloved Sesame Street of my own childhood (I remember seeing the first episode on a portable television in kindergarten) seemed polluted with mass marketing gimickry.

    My problem with mass producers of fantasy toy items is the pre-packaged, off the shelf, prescripted story line, in full stereo and color. Mermaids look like this, Fairy god mothers look like that, Beauty and the Beast is told this way.

    Parents don’t have to think, children learn they don’t have to think either. Corporate toy manufacturers tell the story in a way that encourages brand recognition and future sales and discourages imagination and individualization. I found myself fiercely defying and filtering this, even as I pawed through the unwanted cast-offs of marketing seasons and trends old and forgotten.

    But, for all my efforts, my daughters still had plenty of Ariel dolls and Disney stories given by others, my son had Nintendo and army action figures. And despite my best efforts, they still managed to pick up and internalize the most sinister sexist messages in our culture by the time they were in their teens.

    I can’t help but get disgusted with the mass marketing directed at children and parent’s gleeful lack of questioning of inculcating the habit of mindless consumption in their children. Parents, overworked and with little clue how to or time to, have quality time with their children buy into the marketing myth that a ‘princess’ birthday party at $32.50 a head or a Sony Playstation will somehow compensate for their lack of involved parenting.

    Mind you, I don’t blame all parents, many of whom are struggling far too much to hold onto far too little.

    I also can’t help but see in each budding ‘princess’ the stereotype of the middle class competing, husband clutching, consumer driven shop-a-holic uber mom.

  70. Jennie, wouldn’t that kinda balance out in the long run given that your hypothetical hubby has the same advantages at his job that Matt has at his?

    If he stays. Notice the huge, huge contingency required for a woman to even break even here.

  71. Evil Fizz, you’re assuming that my hypothetical hubby and I are going to stay married, that I’m going to be content to be the secondary income-earner in my household, and that I consider his advantages in his career adequate compensation for the losses in mine.

    What if I leave hypothetical hubby? What if he’s abusive? What if he leaves me?

    While it’s nice for the family that hubby’s career advances at the same rate as co-workers (assuming that hubby’s career has the same prospects and scope for advancement), I can’t say that leaving women more financially dependent on the men in their lives seems like a sensible thing to me.

  72. There used to be a trade-off: financial security in return for subordinating yourself to a man. But the rules have changed.

    You have a very different definition of “benefit” than I do. I’ll agree that’s a trade-off. I don’t agree that having to be subordinate to a man in exchange for financial security is a benefit. I asked where the benefit was.

    The only way to dismantle the patriarchy is to point out to men that under a patriarchy, they lose, too. Otherwise, all they see is that women and minorities are taking away the few tiny crumbs that they do get, and they will dig in their heels and resist any progress.

    Why do you want to create enemies where we could have allies?

    I specifically said that men have problems under the patriarchy too. I took exception to the idea that somehow men have it as bad under the patriarchy as women do. I’m sorry, but it is quite common for discussions about women’s problems to devolve into focusing on men’s problems. This is not a unique or rare occurrence. When men move the discussion in that direction, it’s often (not always) because they want to deflect any focus on women’s problems. By diverting the discussion, they can yet again have their concerns be topmost. That is not the action of an ally. That is the action of an enemy.

    Also, there are other kinds of privilege that men have regardless of social status. It’s just not true that only rich white men benefit from the patriarchy. I realize a lot of men don’t understand that, but if we pretend it isn’t true and baby them by not correcting them when they make that mistaken assumption, what do we accomplish?

  73. Evil Fizz, you’re assuming that my hypothetical hubby and I are going to stay married, that I’m going to be content to be the secondary income-earner in my household, and that I consider his advantages in his career adequate compensation for the losses in mine.

    No, no. I’m agreeing with you here: the stability of your hypothetical marriage is a damn big if. That’s Darleen’s point in blockquote.

  74. One other thing I’d like to point out, now that it occurs to me. That whole thing about creating enemies rather than allies? How come that question isn’t directed at men about women? It’s only as I’ve gotten older and been faced with the exact same responses over and over and over no matter how nicely I’ve said things or how much I’ve admitted that men have problems under the patriarchy too that I’ve gotten to this point. Why is it, then, that I’m the one allegedly creating enemies?

  75. All right, I’m an idiot. I did ask where the trade-off was, not where the benefit was. What I intended was how was this beneficial. I apologize for the last sentence of my first paragraph in my response to Mnemosyne.

  76. And zuzu says what I was trying to say, but she does it far more eloquently and with far less recourse to hypothetical anyone.

  77. Lorelei
    Darleen, there’s a wide selection of things you could buying your children that isn’t gendered if you have money. If you’re keeping low budget and trying to buy stuff at KMart and Kohls, you’re not going to have that many choices.

    And for those parents for whom low budget is the only choice? Many people shop at KMart and Kohls because they can’t afford to shop elsewhere; do the have-nots not deserve gender-neutral kinderstuff?

  78. And for those parents for whom low budget is the only choice? Many people shop at KMart and Kohls because they can’t afford to shop elsewhere; do the have-nots not deserve gender-neutral kinderstuff?

    Dude, that’s not what I said at all, or tried to imply. I was just stating how it is. I hate how just because you don’t have amazing amounts of money for clothes that they don’t even FIT you right. I think the fact that they’re inexpensive clothes means WICKED GENDERED.

  79. And you wonder why people find you irritating.

    Actually, that was me being irritating, not Darleen.

    More often than not, her husband — you know, the father of her children — will not take any significant, career-harming leave after a child is born.

    Why would a woman have children with such a man if it’s important to her that he be willing to take parental leave? The men willing to do so may be rare, but they do exist; I know three of them myself. They all took more time off than their wives (knowing what the consequences would be) because it was beneficial to the family (their wives earned more money). They decided that the trade-off was worth it for the family as a whole. I’d have done it too if I were in their shoes.

    Kinda related, I think that many men are attracted to women who wish to be sahm’s. I don’t think women are as attracted to men who wish to take the chance of harming their carreers in order to be a more involved parent. Am I wrong about this?

    you’re assuming that my hypothetical hubby and I are going to stay married

    That’s the biggest reason I’ve never had kids. I’m surprised that it doesn’t prevent more people from having any.

  80. I tried the stay at home mom thing… I can’t tell you how disheartening and depressing it was to not have a paycheck or money of my own coming in. I don’t regret the time I spent with my kids at all but the realization that I was completely, totally financially dependent on my husband did not work for me at all. Now I’m back at work and I miss my kids like crazy during the day, but I’m far less depressed and I feel a lot better about myself on the whole. In order for me to go back to work, my husband had to rearrange his schedule and his boss has been a complete jerk about it, because apparently his job should come before mine despite the fact he works at a restaurant and should be able to have a more flexible schedule than mine, which is administrative and involves a set schedule.

  81. RM:
    You’re assuming that people talk before they get married about who will take parental leave when children are born. I can guarantee you, most don’t. And many people simply don’t question the idea that it will be the woman who takes time off, because “babies need their mothers”. And many *people* question men who take large amounts of time off to care for their kids/wives who just gave birth, like they are not serious about their jobs/careers. And MANY places in the US still do not offer good maternity leave OR paternity leave at all.

    So you see, the assumptions run subtly and deeply. It’s not something that most people wear on their sleeves. Unlike which sports teams they support. *rolls eyes*

  82. Kinda related, I think that many men are attracted to women who wish to be sahm’s. I don’t think women are as attracted to men who wish to take the chance of harming their carreers in order to be a more involved parent. Am I wrong about this?

    RM, I can’t tell you, because I don’t speak for all, or even for most, women, and I can’t think of a creditable survey that asks this question.

    For myself, if I were to marry anyone, ever again, I’d go for someone who was not only willing, but also eager to take on their fair share of the parenting, and accept the possible career outcomes.

    And I’m old, and crusty, and experienced enough to insist that this sort of conversation be part of the pre-nuptial negotiations.

    In my immediate experience, men get all kinds of praise and kudos for being competent parents, while women are subjected to intense scrutiny by other women who need to affirm their own worth by attacking another woman’s parenting. Women, when they announce their intentions to return to work, are faced with “But won’t you feel terrible about missing the baby growing up?” or nonsense about “letting a babysitter raise your kid.”

  83. But, for all my efforts, my daughters still had plenty of Ariel dolls and Disney stories given by others, my son had Nintendo and army action figures. And despite my best efforts, they still managed to pick up and internalize the most sinister sexist messages in our culture by the time they were in their teens.

    Yeah, that’s the problem. My mom recently told me about how she bought my eldest sister tools to play with when she was a very little girl. As soon as she went to kindergarten, she developed ideas about what girls are supposed to do, and playing with tools wasn’t one of them. Well meaning aunts, uncles, grandparents, family friends, whatever, will buy Barbie sets for girls and action figures for boys. That’s why I think those mix your own cosmetics kits are sheer genious. If a girl has already developed an interest in cosmetics and things girly, I think you will get further by giving her gifts which cater to those interests. My neice-in-law, for instance – if I were to buy her a gift with the aim of introducing some non-girly interests, I might buy, say, some electronics with Princess branding, or Bratz branding (assuming such a thing exists). I wouldn’t bother with the black and yellow walkie-talkies, I would totally go for the pink, sparkly walkie-talkies. Or a pink, sparkly chemistry set to go with the mix you own nail polish.

    Kids are going to absorb gendered messages no matter what you do. Your job as a parent is to provide additional messages to absorb.

  84. Great FSM, but the last quoted line in the post rings true.

    On another note, I just finished knitting a little stuffed turtle for my bf’s niece. When I was looking for yarn, I was thinking about color combinations that would work well. A pale-and-dark pink set looked good, but I initially stayed away from pink in order to avoid the “girls automatically get pink!” appearance.

    Well, it turns out her favorite color is pink. So, the turtle was pink.

  85. RM, it’s a little hard to be ‘wrong’ if you phrase your suppositions in extremely vague, non-falsifiable terms. But you knew that.

    The reality is (as this post was about) no one can have it all.

    Funnily, only women are scolded with this platitude. Nobody tells men that they’d better figure out whether they want to be CEO or Daddy, buster, because you “can’t have it all”. Nobody tells men they need to think hard about juggling childcare and their career. (Also, nobody ever puts “career” in quotes.)

    As for the article itself, I found it immensely irritating for the author’s propensity to impose her What About Finding a Man? neurosis on little girls. The Paper Bag Princess is not a cautionary tale–the prince is a jerk and the princess happily dances off into the sunset. And she doesn’t seem to notice that little boys aren’t poking dejectedly at their Bionicles saying “Who are they going to marry if Toa Hahli is the only girl?”

  86. They’ll just have to get gay Bionicle married.

    This is a complete tangent, but one of the things I used to ask about my action figures was “How can they sit down for dinner when their legs won’t bend?”

  87. The thing is, people are actually belittling these girls, and preparing to belittle them in future, when they call them “princesses”. If you think about it, if a little girl really is a princess, shouldn’t she pretty much be able to do whatever she goddamn wants, as in sit in the princess throne if she wants, screw it if she doesn’t, order people around, decide never to brush her hair again, etc. But no! That’s not what society wants of them. They want sweet little girls who will dress up nice and make themselves look all pretty, and do whatever the men and the elders tell them to do, not ask questions, or god forbid, act like they don’t enjoy the whole charade.

    I have been thinking lately that the patronizing patriarchal behavior I have to deal with daily as a 24-year-old, smallish, reasonably attractive and non-threatening looking woman is just an outgrowth of this princess thing. I can be walking around minding my own business and random strangers will walk up to me and tell me to “smile”, like part of my goddamn job is to sit around and look pleasing for them. I was sitting in Waffle House the other day at 2 am just trying to get some freaking food, and some mildly raving drunk woman starts wondering loudly if my quietness and attention solely to my food means she’s frightening the poor little “sweetheart”. When I look up, smile, and wave her off, the manager of the place walks by me and whispers that I’m nice but I should be just a little “more sweet.” WTF! I am a person, not there for cuteness and to be patted gently on the head.

    That I think is the real message that the princess thing is intended to give to girls: sit there, shut up and look pretty. Don’t get any ideas of your own, and for god’s sake, don’t express dissatisfaction or try to rock the boat in any way. The whole thing is about teaching girls to be submissive, and act like they like it; heck they should even feel grateful people paid them the compliment of noticing them.

  88. I had only sons, and so managed to miss out on a lot of the princess crap. But yes to the difficulty of finding boy clothing.

    One year at Halloween my eldest decided he wanted to be a ghost. So in the interests of the sheet not slipping we cut the brim off a ball cap and sewed the sheet and various other wispy, fluttering bits of fabric to it, and he wore white sweats underneath. I had to go to the “girls section” to get white sweatpants and sweatshirt. Since when has WHITE been a girl’s color?!? Since when has royal purple, which happens to be my older boy’s favorite shirt color (and he does look good in it) been a girl’s color?

    Even as an adult woman who is quite curvy I have a hard time finding just. plain. clothes that aren’t gendered. (Owing to the breast and hip thing, men’s stuff isn’t always an option.) I don’t WANT sparkly beads and embroidery on my denim shirt, damn it. And I don’t want something cute on it either.

    The thing which I find infinitely amusing, however, is this. We participate as a family in medieval reenacting, and our period is the early fifteenth century…a time when men wore either long robes or tight hose and there was much color and foof going on. It is utterly hilarious to me to see the preteen who has to have it pointed out to him that he can’t wear the old shirt with the permanent ketchup stain on it anywhere but home fussing to get the pleats in his houppelande to fall -just- right.

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