Holy Shit October 11, 2006 zuzu Small plane strikes NYC apartment building. Probably just a shitty pilot. Right? … right?
Evil thought: They better not shut down the subway, dammit, I’ve got a job interview to get to in half an hour!
Really looks — from the specifics and the way it’s being reported on the local news — like an accident. For starters, the building hit isn’t of any terrorist interest, or particularly near anything that is. It’s only a block away from the East River, which is the site of a huge amount of aircraft traffic. And it’s a very cloudy, foggy day in NYC today. My money’s on mechanical failure or pilot error.
i don’t think anyone’s doubting that this was an accident, but it is REALLY insulting to hear someone call “shitty pilot” as soon as something crashes. as someone who recently lost a close friend, who was an extremely talented pilot, in a small plane crash, it’s a pretty ignorant way of viewing a plane crash, especially when it happened about a minute ago and you have no information whatsoever. (sorry – it’s just a troubling assumption, and it’s a pretty close issue at the moment). that said, i’m surprised small planes are allowed to fly in cities – the wind conditions and obvious obstructions seem like a recipe for disaster. at first glance, perhaps someone was wrong with the plane. or maybe al-qaeda’s new master weapon is single-engine Cessnas. I’m sure that’s what the media will say.
Plane may have been registered to yankees pitcher Airplane crashes into Manhattan high-rise – CNN.com
First thing I thought when I saw “airplane,” “building,” “crash,” and “fire” all together was 9/11. But this does look like an accident. So far.
Shades of Thurman Munson. Apparently the plane was owned (and often flown) by Yankee pitcher Corey Lidle.
CNN is reporting that Lidle was in fact piloting the plane and is believed to have been killed in the crash.
i don’t think anyone’s doubting that this was an accident, but it is REALLY insulting to hear someone call “shitty pilot” as soon as something crashes. as someone who recently lost a close friend, who was an extremely talented pilot, in a small plane crash, it’s a pretty ignorant way of viewing a plane crash, especially when it happened about a minute ago and you have no information whatsoever. (sorry – it’s just a troubling assumption, and it’s a pretty close issue at the moment). You know what’s a close issue? Planes flying into buildings in Manhattan. I’m very sorry about your friend, but if I have to make assumptions about shitty pilots to keep my sanity, I will do it.
Okay, WTF? Everyone (including pilots and people close to pilots) are worried about terrorists flying into buildings in New York. But that DOES NOT give you the right to say “shitty pilot” like that just because there was a crash. It’s just as psychologically comforting to say “probably was an accident”, and that doesn’t involve slur every pilot who’s ever had a crash or near-miss.
antigone: not only did you take the words out of my mouth, I have a creeping suspicion, after a brief look at your blog, that we are probably thinking of the same recent event and the same pilot here. Wow… zuzu: my regrets for making this into a big deal, it wasn’t my intention (I really enjoy reading your blog), and I hope I didn’t come across as trying to insult you. I was just hoping to help you avoid an unfortunate and all-too-common misconception, namely that people prefer to slap “pilot error” on accidents rather than confront more complex reasons…although liek antigone, I’m not sure why simply assuming “accident” isn’t sufficient for you to “keep your sanity”.
Okay, Antigone? Remember this: I live just a bit closer to planes flying into buildings in Manhattan than you do. Like, I live mere blocks and work mere blocks from them, so I do get a bit tetchy about that sort of thing. Em: point taken in re accident vs. pilot error affecting sanity, but if you’ve been reading this site, and my posts, for any length of time, you’d know that I worked a whole block from the WTC when 9/11 happened. So, really, from my perspective, it really doesn’t matter to me if it was some kind of new pilot under rainy/hazy conditions like Corey Lider (and it was damn grey today), or a shitty pilot. The effect was the same — a plane crashing into a building in Manhattan and freaking us all the fuck out.
Calm down, zuzu. A lot of people get twitchy about planes and buildings meeting up, and pilots get really twitchy when the rest of you start getting twitchy about us. It’d be good if you could calm down and let us do our job. I’m betting if you do, we can go back to arriving at the airport less than an hour before the flight and keeping our shoes on. And seriously, kneejerking to collisions? Copycats or not, does it really matter WHO crashed the thing into the building? Once that’s happened, it’s well far and away out of your control, and if it was terrorists, the government will deal with it as they see fit, which tends to be precisely how the rest of us don’t. So your reaction needs to not be screaming about pilots and instead calmly considering who you’re putting into office and how to keep pilots like me (and Antigone, btw) doing our job while maximizing safety and effectiveness. Trust us, we’re the experts here. TRH
And I’m training to be a pilot. And you just slurred me and everyone in my profession. Look, I know it’s a little scary to hear a plane crashes into building, ESPECIALLY after what you lived through. But that doesn’t give you the right to insult people who had nothing to do with it. Em, probably.
No offense to anyone, but if someone crashes a plane into a building, aren’t they a shitty pilot? If not, what would make them one?
Heraclitus, Good pilots can crash planes. Extraordinary environmental circumstances, equipment failure, getting shot the fuck down, midair collisions, medical problems (hard to keep a plane level when you’ve just had a stroke)…. Good drivers can crash cars… and for more or less the same sorts of reasons. Besides, aren’t shitty pilots flying well and good pilots flying shittily, singing together, singing apart, and making multiple emergency water landings into what is and is not the same river? And then their souls are wet, so they get led around by beardless boys.
No offense to anyone, but if someone crashes a plane into a building, aren’t they a shitty pilot? If not, what would make them one? It depends on why the aircraft crashed into the building. Pilot was having sex and not paying attention? Shitty pilot. Control cable broke and rudder no longer operable? Not the pilot’s fault. Most accidents are combinations of problems. For example, a mechanical problem is compounded by a pilot not doing “exactly the right thing” in that instance. Note that general aviation aircraft (small planes) have much less stringent safety requirements relative to airliners, and therefore a much higher accident rate. And I guess no matter what it is it will reflect badly on some group of which I am a member, since I’m both a private pilot and an aircraft designer. Those who think “pilot error” is a slur: It’s really not. Pilot error just means that the pilot maybe didn’t do the best thing possible. We all panic, or don’t remember our training, or whatever, sometimes. And sometimes it’s fatal. Similarly, “mechanical failure” is not a “slur” on aircraft mechanics and aircraft design engineers. These categories exist so that the authorities can help prevent future accidents. For instance, a pilot error classification can help us design better interfaces and indicators, or improve training. Sorry for getting all technical on y’all.
Probably just a shitty pilot You don’t know how much flak I took (mostly from women, for whatever reason), when I said the same thing about JFK Jr’s crash.
You know what’s a close issue? Planes flying into buildings in Manhattan. I’m very sorry about your friend, but if I have to make assumptions about shitty pilots to keep my sanity, I will do it Replace “shitty pilots” with “Muslims” and I doubt any of us would defend, much less promote, this rationalization.
Look, I know it’s a little scary to hear a plane crashes into building, ESPECIALLY after what you lived through. But that doesn’t give you the right to insult people who had nothing to do with it. Jesus, why are you taking it so personally? The only person whose ability I questioned was the guy who actually crashed the plane into the building. Not you. If you want to feel personally aggrieved on behalf of your profession, have at, but I never said that all pilots are shitty. I don’t get personally offended and insulted when someone makes a comment about a shitty lawyer. Because I know that because someone else is a shitty lawyer, it doesn’t affect me. I also don’t question the appropriateness of other people’s visceral reactions to stressful events, which is what you did. I wrote that post mere minutes after the crash happened, with sirens going outside my window, and no clue whether this was intentional or an accident, and if it was intentional, whether other things were coming down the pike. And you come in here hectoring me with the “everyone’s worried about planes flying into buildings in New York, but you can’t insult pilots!” stuff. Whether pilots get insulted by my comments was not high on my list of things to worry about at that moment. Replace “shitty pilots” with “Muslims” and I doubt any of us would defend, much less promote, this rationalization. Well, I didn’t replace “shitty pilot” with “Muslim,” now did I? It’s my psychological coping mechanism, Joanne. I’m not asking you to defend, much less promote, it. I’m not even the one making a big deal out of it.
I understand that good pilots can crash planes due to circumstances beyond their control. The point I was trying to make in zuzu’s defense, although I did so too obliquely or tersely, was that thousands or tens of thousands of planes fly every day, and none of them crash into buildings. If one does, it doesn’t seem like slandering an entire profession to suggest that the pilot was shitty; the point rather seems to be the opposite, that the profession as a whole obviously usually does much better. And Dennis, you’re right. I don’t know how I forgot myself. One must realize that shitty pilots are the father of all, and that all things come to be through planes crashing into buildings, and that it is so ordained.
Pot-stirrer: no, pilot’s who crash planes. No, you never said all pilots are shitty, but you did imply with your statement that every pilot who crashes a plane is shitty. That’s not true. Sometimes shitty pilots go years without crashing, and sometimes good pilots crash. To imply otherwise impunes the profession. It doesn’t matter why I’m taking personally: my motivations are my own (No, I’ve never crashed a plane). Maybe you should worry about whethere or not you insult pilots. If I sounded off on my blog that some lawyer got a guy off and then said it was a result of “all of those evil lawyers” you probably would be offended. You have an even bigger responsiblity because you have a higher traffic. I’m not the one who’s making a big deal about this. If you would have just said “sorry, I didn’t mean to slur pilots” I would have probably shrugged and said “No big deal, heat of the moment”. But you’re the one who’s not admitting to doing anything wrong: you’re the one who’s dragging this out by not caring about people who read your blog. And I know that pilot error =/= bad pilot, and neither does mechanical error = bad mechanic. But she didn’t say “probably was a pilot error” she said “probably was a shitty pilot”.
No, you never said all pilots are shitty, but you did imply with your statement that every pilot who crashes a plane is shitty. Where? No, really, where? If I sounded off on my blog that some lawyer got a guy off and then said it was a result of “all of those evil lawyers” you probably would be offended. Or not. People have been making lawyer jokes for centuries. I do my job nonetheless. You have an even bigger responsiblity because you have a higher traffic. Responsibility to do what? Anticipate that someone might personalize something I say and feel wounded? Look, I’m just one person on the internet. See Jill’s post above as to why we’re not role models here. But you’re the one who’s not admitting to doing anything wrong: you’re the one who’s dragging this out by not caring about people who read your blog. I’m supposed to be holding your hand or something? If you want me to “admit” to doing something “wrong,” you’re going to have to make a valid argument that I did actually do something wrong. Which you haven’t. Saying that I implied that all pilots were shitty pilots doesn’t make it true. If I thought that, I’d never get in another plane. Just because you made an inference doesn’t mean there was an implication.
You did imply that all pilots who crash are shitty. Cute, how you ask where. Implications can’t be pointed out, they’re based on how the receiver percieves the thing, but yeah, you did. “Just another shitty pilot” is indeed an implication that if I crash my plane, I’m a shitty pilot, or at least that if I crash my plane you’ll think me a shitty pilot. If I call you a shitty lawyer for losing a case, do you take offense? Do you enjoy that? I take a very personal pride in my flying skills, my tiny little pin with wings on it is my most prized possession. Call me a shitty pilot for crashing (I haven’t, and don’t have any particular plans to either) and I will be personally offended. Presumably, this pilot would be offended by the same, and I stand up for my fellow aviators, just like you would probably stand up for a fellow lawyer, because you hope that someday if needed they would do the same for you, because you feel a sense of pride in what you do. I work in the most legally regulated industry to be found in the US. What I do, what I love to do, is dictated very much by lawyers, and it would not be hard for me to be contemptible to you. I’m not, because I think most Lawyers do all sorts of good stuff for people. So yes, an apology to the Aviation community would be appreciated. We don’t appreciate being called Shitty, even if we are. It’s quite insulting, and much less than we deserve for the time, money and effort we put into learning how to do this thing. TRH
If I call you a shitty lawyer for losing a case, do you take offense? Do you enjoy that? I take a very personal pride in my flying skills, my tiny little pin with wings on it is my most prized possession. Call me a shitty pilot for crashing (I haven’t, and don’t have any particular plans to either) and I will be personally offended. Presumably, this pilot would be offended by the same, and I stand up for my fellow aviators, just like you would probably stand up for a fellow lawyer, because you hope that someday if needed they would do the same for you, because you feel a sense of pride in what you do. You know, you really, REALLY seem to have a problem with differentiating between someone calling you to your face a shitty X, and interpreting someone calling some entirely unrelated person a shitty X as calling YOU a shitty X. As you said, you haven’t crashed. So you are not in the group of people covered by “shitty pilot” in my post. In fact, there are two possible candidates for that sobriquet, and since you are sitting at your computer telling me what a horrible person I am instead of being scraped off E. 72nd Street, then you are not one of the two people. Get over it already.
Well this thread has been sufficiently derailed. I spent all of last year living at 68th and 1st — four street blocks and one avenue from the building at East 72nd. Kind of scary. And you bet your ass that when I saw at the gym that a plane had hit a building on the Upper East Side, I freaked out a little bit. And I breathed a major sigh of relief when I realized that it was “just” an accident. I think that zuzu’s post reflects the tension that a lot of us here feel when something like this happens — we want it to just be a “shitty pilot,” because that’s short-hand for “not intentional.” Mistaken short-hand in many instances, sure. But an off-the-cuff remark about a highly stressful situation that probably does not warrant all of these criticisms.
Why does this thread derail remind me SOOOOO much of the “Not all men are Rapist!!!11eleventy!11 argument”?? Does that equate projection and a bit of a guilty conscious, hmm? I know when my ex husband did the projecting on to me by calling me a liar, I had to develop some awesomely good detective skills to find out wtf he was lying about again. Defense mechanisms work so weirdly sometimes. But ultimately, Zuzu didn’t do anything wrong here. Your projecting, and privelging yourself just like a guy would when a girl refers to a guy who’s raped her. If you weren’t involved then it wasn’t meant for you personally. If you take it as such and accuse someone of saying “All men are rapists!11eleventy11!!” You have the issues, not the one saying it. ON TOPIC: Isn’t it odd how they mentioned that the building didn’t fall. Isn’t it also odd that the planes weren’t that much different? Oh, man are they going to have a hard time explaining why TWO ginormous buildings collapsed /w two small planes hitting them, and this medium sized building didn’t. I wonder what this evidence will spawn next. I studied architecture and my favorite subject of all time is physics. Bet you can guess which camp I am in?
As I wrote elsewhere, this accident is the nightmare of people who live on high floors or in the bad weather landing path to an airport. (In my case, it’s both, in the bad weather landing path and on the next to highest floor of the building. Last night was so foggy, you could barely see the plane lights and the planes were coming in to LaGuardia at 3-4 minute intervals.) Usually you don’t think about it, but every so often you realize that a plane could “land” in your living room and you say prayer of thanks to your favorite deity that it hasn’t happened. (Someone upthread mentioned living near Teterborough airport and fearing plane accidents — I guess we’re two sides of the same coin.)
Fine, the reason I’m so upset about this is because a very good pilot, Heather, who I went to school with, died in a plane crash in Colorado. She wasn’t a bad pilot, in fact, she was a fantastic pilot. Things went from VFR to IFR (it happens) and she was in a cloud bank and crashed into a cliff. You’re slurring her. You’re slurring the pilot who crashed into the building (who, by the by, was a STUDENT pilot in horrible conditions). Loosely Twisted: Wrong. 767 are HUGE airplanes. This plane was a single engine. Big, big, big difference. I know the pictures make it seem like there were small planes, but those are some of the largest commercial planes there are, versus this little plane which was a two-seater (if that).
IMO, this is getting a bit silly, Antigone. Zuzu was upset and said something about ONE PILOT being shitty. Considering the fact that a plane smacked into a building, and unless you can pull up his past records, she has a point. But that’s neither here nor there…) Now it’s beginning to sound like some kid on a playground going “Well, I want to a Fireman, so don’t you say mean things about firemen, cuz my dad is one too and they’re the best!” People give Lawyers shit all the time — how many lawyer jokes have you heard? People give strippers a hard time. People flipping burgers for less than one quarter of what a pilot makes are given a hard time. MOVE ON. Your profession is hardly “slurred” and unsalvageable because Zuzu said some guy did a shitty job of it.
For all people who think it’s a terrible slander to call some rich baseball player (who had his license for less than a year) a “shitty pilot” just because he crashed a plane into an apartment building(!), please see this article in Salon. The writer is a commercial pilot himself and though he cautions not all the evidence is in yet, he does say, “There’s not a whole lot, free of human error, that can send one careening into a skyscraper. ” Read the article for his detailed analysis of how the crash probably happened.
Whoops, too many quotes in that link tag: the article is at http://salon.com/tech/col/smith/2006/10/12/askthepilot205/index1.html