Shaving

125 thoughts on Shaving

1. I trim, although I’m lazy about it. I would never wax it off (eee, the pain!!!), and I shave only for beach/vacations, and it usually itches like hell. I’ve only been in a few serious relationships, but I’ve never had anyone say anything about it. As it should be. If they asked me to change it, I’d say, hey baby, I’ll wax if you will 😀

2. I have a fairly old school feminist attitude about this. If my partner started telling me what to do with my body, other than suggesting we take a slow walk together when I’m feeling crummy or the like, I’d have a fit. (And I would never make such a request of him– if he wanted to grow facial hair, well, it’s his body. If it affects my attraction to him, that’s one thing to be dealt with, but I still do not get to dictate or whine for a certain look.) I think the current cultural feeling that women should be as shaved or waxed as possible is repugnant and just one more example of patriarchy controlling women. Why is women’s hair more repellant than mens? Look at the money it costs to buy Mach 3 razors or get waxed! It’s just another ploy to get us to spend money, conform, be infantalized, and exist in a state of disconnect with our natural bodies.

   I do not buy the argument that men are subject to the same societal pressure to mold their bodies that women are. The very idea makes me want to howl with laughter. Does the average American man feel guilt or concern when he goes to a job interview without makeup on? Does he spend money on $18 dollar nylons because it makes his bare legs kosher at work? Did he grow up with a close friend with an eating disorder? Does he feel entitled to go shirtless in the summer no matter how exercised his physique?

   I think this is a very ‘personal is political’ area. And until I can walk around town with my legs unshaven and NOT get dirty looks, and not get verbally chastised by family that LOVES me, I’ll still think that being told to shave my crotch is an abhorrent statement of control or a marker of being immersed in a porn culture I want nothing to do with.

3. No answers specifically to the grooming question, but I do know some men who shave their pubic hair and claim that women prefer it that way, so I think it’s a preference that can go both ways. Some people get grossed out by the hair, especially when performing oral sex. I would imagine though that a lot of younger guys who claim to prefer bare pubes have probably never been sexually active with a girl who didn’t shave or wax, and thus have no point of comparison.

4. When my partner makes a suggestion, I take it as just that. It’s a suggestion, and if I don’t want to do it I definitely am not going to do it. Sometimes it’s interesting to experiment with different types of grooming, but ultimately whatever makes me comfortable is what I’m going with. [Same goes for my partner – he takes my suggestions in to consideration the same way I do his, but thankfully neither of us feels obligated to change our comfort-zones for the other.] I consider grooming of the pubic hair similar to grooming of my eyebrows, or the hair on my head. It’s all based on what makes me attractive to me, bonus if other people think I don’t look like I just rolled off a garbage heap, but the end result is not targeted specifically towards them.

   I’venever understood the association between “shaven genital area” and “child’s body”. I’m a woman. I very clearly have a woman’s body, and no lack of body hair is going to make me look childlike, on any level. I honestly can’t remember a time when I didn’t have pubic hair [I guess before it grew in I just never really thought about it], so it doesn’t really remind me of being physically younger, either.

5. I think the manner of asking is vital. A playful suggestion is one thing, a repeated fixation something altogether different. Over a long-term relationship, one’s partners body is going to undergo a huge number of changes due to ageing and other life factors. It one’s desire is contingent on a certain look, we gots trouble.

   I had an ex-girlfriend who wanted me nearly hairless. She waxed my chest, my legs, and trimmed everywhere else. (I am fortunate to not have loads of back hair.) I think she had a thing for guys who looked like swimmers; my father’s Jewish ancestry shows up in my tendency towards hirsuteness. I’m glad I found out what it was like to be waxed, but I refused her request to keep myself smooth and hairless. Our relationship ended soon thereafter, albeit for different reasons than grooming differences.
   But it would have become an issue very fast had we stayed together.

   My wife likes me bearded; I like being clean-shaven. The goatee (I know, not as fashionable as it once was) is usually our compromise. And there’s lots of room for compromise on this sort of thing.

6. Before moving away from LA I was big into this place on Ventura Blvd. called Pink Cheeks. Cindy could wax anything. I loved having whats called a playboy; pretty much a brazilian but not so skinny up top. Now I’m in a place where the waxing is a bit more primitive so I’ve been putting up with tweezing and trimming. Personally, I like being trimmed and maintained and my husband made me realize that men have just as many issues with their own body hair. He has hair in all the right places but still feels compelled to trim his chest, the area around his belly button, and pubic hair even though I have told him on more than one occasion how sexy I think his hair is, and in the event I haven’t kept up with any trimming on myself (while I was pregnant because you can’t even see your crotch for a good 5 months) he could care less. Interestingly enough I just waxed his bestfriend’s back hair last week and it was the funniest thing I’ve ever seen. He was screaming and writhing in the kitchen like the scene from that stupid movie The 40 Year Old Virgin. Perhaps men don’t have as much of a pain threshold. Even so, the ones that make demands should be kicked to the curb cause real men don’t care!

7. Quoth Ann: “I think the current cultural feeling that women should be as shaved or waxed as possible is repugnant and just one more example of patriarchy controlling women”

   My GF shaves it, and I happen to like it because it minimizes the amount of hair that gets stuck in my mouth during certain acts. Just pointing out that there is, in fact, a practical reason to favor the shaved look. For the record, I keep my pubic hair trimmed for the same reason.

   And regarding your not buying the argument that men are subject to the same pressures … I’ll agree they’re not, but at the same time, ask many women what they think of back hair on a guy. The common response is “Ewwwwwwww.”

8. Personally, I get annoyed, as it’s a very personal area for me, and having beauty standards apply on my crotch seems very invasive. Also, it makes me wonder if you have a lolita complex. I hate those, and think they should be killed, killed with fire.

9. Ann (#2) —

   My mom and sister came down to visit last month, and I greeted them in my shorts. First words out of my sister’s mouth? “Damn, hairy legs.”

   I decided to try shaving earlier this year. It was interesting, but the itchiness and Xtreme! stubble got annoying. So I decided to use a “personal trimmer” on setting 1, about once a month.

   My husband knows better than to make demands on my appearance. He also doesn’t really care. Though he does sigh wistfully and wonder what I look like with long hair…

10. Sorry for posting so much lately, but the reason I worry is I’m not as tall as other people, and people are constantly commenting on how they think I’m like 12 or 15 or something. And yea, I have A cups.

11. The only reason I could possibly conceive of shaving down there is the one jt brought up – does it actually cause discomfort? Does the guy get a major rash on his face? Likewise, asking a guy to either have a beard or nothing so as to avoid getting beard-burn on sensitive areas. That’s just being kind to your partner.

    Otherwise? It’s all aesthetics. No body is perfect like a porno mag. It’s up to the individual.

12. I dated a guy who used to lecture me about how sloppy I looked because I didn’t wear tight-fitting clothes. He, however, was often unshaven and unshowered. Apparently it was different for him.

    Needless to say, I kicked his ass to the curb soon after.

    It’s not as if these guys had asked her to trim because it made going down easier for them. They asked her to give herself a pubic mohawk (which looks fucking ridiculous). I have never done that, and I won’t. You don’t have to take that much off to keep things comfortable for your partners.

    And regarding your not buying the argument that men are subject to the same pressures … I’ll agree they’re not, but at the same time, ask many women what they think of back hair on a guy. The common response is “Ewwwwwwww.”

    Maybe so. But we do learn to deal with it. And there aren’t endless products thrown your way with messages that you’re disgusting or horrible for not getting it waxed, or that you’re less of a man for refusing to do so. More men are doing it now, and I have to wonder if it’s due to a backlash from women who are fed up with being made to feel that they’re ugly if they don’t wax, pluck, shave, and coat their faces in makeup.

13. Sorry for posting so much lately, but the reason I worry is I’m not as tall as other people, and people are constantly commenting on how they think I’m like 12 or 15 or something. And yea, I have A cups.

    Yeah, the only reason I can see shaving requests as being completely divorced from the Lolita thing is simply because I will never be mistaken for a child. If I were small, slim and had small breasts, I’d sure as hell worry.

14. I have never been asked by ANY partner to modify my hairiness (armpit, leg, or crotch) in ANY WAY EVER, but I imagine that this is because my Personality is so scary.

    But it’s a good thing they never mentioned it, because I agree with Ann, poster number two. Wake UP ladies, this is OBVIOUSLY a control issue with overtones of pedophilia. It IS Pornification. It is not normal, not natural, and patriarchal.

    When we look back at History, and see footbinding, corseting (to the point of guaranteed death at childbirth) stacking neck rings, and female genital excision, it is best to come to a rule off thumb: whatever your body does naturally is probably the most civilized beauty standard, plus cleanliness. Once it becomes mandatory to customize the female body for our lord and masters pleasure, it is a DAMN slippery slope. One we are better off not starting down.

    Of course shaving body hair isn’t permanent, and for the most part it’s voluntary. But who on God’s earth likes it? MEN don’t even like to shave their faces.

    Of course I grew up in the seventies and I miss the idea that we are each and every one of us beautiful just as we are. I wish everyone could wear loose comfortable natural fiber clothes and sensible shoes and get six weeks vacation a year and free medical care. Yes, I long for a hippie utopia……..where females don’t have to spend all their time customizing their bodies for the male gaze.

    But I digress. Women should not have to worry about their pubic hair in addition to everything else.

15. I don’t mind if he asks, as long as he doesn’t mind when I say no. As far as I’m concerned, the costs of shaving, waxing, or otherwise trimming pubic hair (pain, discomfort, money, time) far outweigh the benefits (a few minutes of increased arousal).

    The hair on my head, however, is a more contentious issue. I like it one way; he likes it another. I style it the way he prefers, mostly because I know that he’d find me less attractive if I didn’t, and usually it doesn’t bother me. But every once in a while I get angry that he can’t just say, “I’d rather you be happy with your hairstyle than wear it in a way you don’t like just to make me happy.”

16. I trim close with an electric razor around the edges when I wear high-leg swimsuits. The rest of my pubis is trimmed, though not as short. It cuts down on odor when I sweat (which I do, a lot), and on hairy teeth during oral sex.

    My partner tried shaving off his pubic hair a couple of times, and I *hated* it–both the look and the feel.

17. Suggestions are OK and it depends on the rationale; is there a valid reason that makes sense to me? However, when it’s more than a suggestion, that’s my cue to run away.

    The man I used to be married to was so obsessed about the hair on my head that even when I got it trimmed, he’d get mad at me. I can’t tell you how many times I cried after getting my hair cut because I knew what was coming and I just couldn’t bear NOT to cut it.

    The final straw was when (referring to MY hair), he stated, “That’s MY hair and I get to say how you wear it”. Ugh.

    After 19 years of that, it’s very easy to dump any guy who wants to tell me how to wear my hair, how to dress, how to keep my house, how many pets to have or whatever.

    Not only that, I’m ten years older than the woman asking for advice and I haven’t had any problems finding partners who like me as I am (even though I look very plmp and grandmotherly, I’m more popular now than I was when I was 18. I can’t figure that one out).

18. “More men are doing it now, and I have to wonder if it’s due to a backlash from women who are fed up with being made to feel that they’re ugly if they don’t wax, pluck, shave, and coat their faces in makeup.”

    Well, I also suspect that manufacturers of household grooming products looking to increase their market share are also doing their part, of course. When you’ve successfully conquered the market for one gender, you gotta look elsewhere to keep growth steady.

19. I’ve had the request from several partners. I don’t mind. I’ve tried it every way possible. I’m not partial to the bare look but I’ve done it.

    I’m not a big shaver, though. I don’t shave my legs (I have very fine strawberry blond hair that people can rarely even see) and I shave my pits seldomly.

    My last partner liked au naturale and I was happy with that.

    I’ve had partners who have shaved and others who haven’t. Personally, I don’t care. I want him to be happy with himself and with his self-image and would hope he’d want the same for me. If not, it’d be adios, amigo.

20. Of course shaving body hair isn’t permanent, and for the most part it’s voluntary. But who on God’s earth likes it? MEN don’t even like to shave their faces.

    Which men? All men? Some men? My husband detests facial hair on himself, the longest he’s gone without shaving in the entire time I’ve known him, has been almost five days. [Because we were both deathly ill with a stomach virus and grooming was the last thing on our minds. I didn’t shave for those five days, either.] And this is a man who barely looks stubbly after five days without shaving.

    As for shaving my own crotch, yes, I do it and quite regularly. It’s about my comfort, no one elses. And I’ve been shaving since I was 14, long before anyone around me was in a position to see what’s under my panties. I can’t really agree that I do this for someone else benefit, because I don’t.

21. Shave or don’t shave, it’s your business. I prefer hair. I prefer low-maintenance people. I prefer people who are OK with themselves as-is. But it’s not a huge deal. I trim my facial hair. shrug.

    And speaking of shrugging, god-damn if I’m not this close to writing an unnecessarily unconstructive “fuck off and die” blog post if I read one more reflexive dismissal of back hair as disgusting. You don’t like my fur, that’s your problem, not mine. Just because your erotic sensibilities are stuck back at puberty doesn’t mean everyone’s should be. I’m proud to be a mammal, dammit.

    (I know Hugo will take that personally, so let me reassure him that I’m talking to the “generic you.”)

22. My boyfriend and I have a “one for one” arrangement. He shaves his face so I shave my pits. Anything after that, he has to start shaving something else. Want my legs done? Do yours. Want my pubic hair done? Do yours. It’s worked out well for us.

23. Wake UP ladies, this is OBVIOUSLY a control issue with overtones of pedophilia.

    I had a couple of girlfriends who asked me to shave my pubic hair (they both were shaved too). Are you suggesting that they were control freaks or pedophiles? It just seemed to me that they preferred their partners to be hairless in that region. Don’t we all have our preferences?

24. I don’t shave my legs, armpits, or pubes. It has never been a problem for me, and has actually been attractive to the people I’ve dated (I’m a lesbian, don’t know if that has anything to do with it, and have had the opinion of both women who shave and women who don’t). If a partner asked me to shave my pubic hair I’d want to know why, and I’d consider it if it was reasonable, but I’d much prefer to just do as I do now and trim it neatly (because I’m a wimp and shaving itches like a you know what!).

    However, if a woman was demanding about it I’d probably be kind of skeeved. If she’s grossed out about a natural part of my body, I don’t think I want her near it.

25. The problem with invasive pubic grooming is the really yucky-looking phenomenon of pubic 5 o clock shadow. It’s really unsightly, and if you’re as white as me, it can appear even before the hair is poking out enough to shave, let alone wax. My compromise is very short trimming, which affords a pretty decent view of the genital area, can be done easily with a beard trimmer, and is never pokey and uncomfortable. Everyone wins.

26. Wake UP ladies, this is OBVIOUSLY a control issue with overtones of pedophilia. It IS Pornification. It is not normal, not natural, and patriarchal.

    This seems way over the top and not at all obvious. It is a only a control issue if your partner states a preference, requires you to meet it, and punishs you for not meeting it. I don’t think anyone should be making acusations about “normal” with sex. That’s the stick used to beat all kinds of people I respect. There is a huge difference between footbinding and shaving.

    And what is it with pedophilia? People have quirky preferences, so what? I’ve dated swimmers and cyclists who shaved their bodiesl. If I prefer a hairless man now, it doesn’t mean I want to boff a child, it means I became accustomed to the feeling of smooth skin.

    And may I just say I’m amused by the phrase “giant baby’s crotch”? That’s an image that would never have come to mind on its own.

27. My mons topiary is purely for comfort and not for aesthetics. As I’m one of those pale and sparsely-planted types to begin with, maintenance is no great ordeal.

    I do have some pretty strong feelings about being asked to alter my appearance, however. WYSIWYG, and vice versa. I quit playing with dress-up dolls a long time ago, so it’s come as you are. Yes, even if you have back hair.

28. (I know Hugo will take that personally, so let me reassure him that I’m talking to the “generic you.”)

    No offense taken, Chris, nor intended. I wasn’t trying to suggest that I would be unhappy if I did have lots of back hair — my good fortune was that with that ex-girlfriend, she didn’t need to wax my back.

29. I want my partner to tell me what makes them happy. I may or may not do it, and they may or may not elect to stay with me. But why not be honest? Saying you like shaved armpits (or _____) is no different to me than asking someone to say your name in bed if it turns you on.

    Sure, we can just “accept people as they are” and there’s certainly some point at which it becomes rude or over the top (“Honey, would you mind losing 45 pounds, working out daily, getting butt implants, jaw surgery, and cutting/dying your hair so you look more like Brad Pitt?”) but truth be told it’s not easy to find someone with whom you are compatible.

    And if you’re mostly compatible and would like to be even more so, there’s nothing wrong IMO with at least having a conversation about it.

    Personally, within the above “nonobnoxious” limits I think it’s a good thing. A lot of stuff related to my appearance is reasonably optional. I’m clean shaven but don’t really mind stubble or a beard; I like a lot of different haircuts; I’m not attached to hair colors; I’m not all that picky about clothes. I don’t know if I’d bother changing my appearance just to appeal to someone random, but someone I cared about? Sure.

30. yucky-looking phenomenon of pubic 5 o clock shadow. It’s really unsightly

    Sara, I have very soft bodyhair, and when I shave (often), my wife can’t wait for the eighth-inch phase, where my public mound feels like a soft brush on her clitoris. De gustibus non disputandum est.

    Like Zuzu, I don’t associate bare pubic mounds with pedophilia at all. Before it got popular, pubic shaving was really a kink thing, usually among BDSM submissives; men and women both. I’ve seen plenty of women with bodies that make it clear that they are women — hips, breasts, bellies and sometimes stretch marks — with no pubic hair. It doesn’t look remotely evocative of prepubescence to me.

31. I don’t have any strong opinions on body hair, so I’ve never asked my girlfriend to shave anywhere. She complains about the hair on her legs, but says she’s too lazy to shave them. Honestly, I can’t imagine how uncomfortable it would be to shave my legs, so I wouldn’t expect anyone to do it. She is naturally not very hairy, but I’ve given it some thought and I wouldn’t really be turned off by more hair. And aesthetically, I definitely prefer pubic hair to razor burn. I honestly don’t understand why people are so intolerant about hair, body shape, height, etc. None of those have ever had a significant affect on whether I was attracted to a person. So I’m inclined to consider demands to shave as pretty extreme and unreasonable.

    On the other hand, my girlfriend tends to bug me to get my hair cut, my moustache shaved, etc. I see this as an aesthetic preference, not a control thing nor a relationship-breaker. So I get my hair cut and shave when I feel like it, and that’s about it.

32. My girlfriend and I have never had any body hair issues because we were both self-groomers before we even met; for us, at least, it’s not an attraction issue, but just general practicality—I trim my absurdly long aureola hairs (why is my chest smooth as a baby’s bottom but my nips like squashed spiders?) and my manly region, and she keeps it neat as well. She also shaves her legs for the same reason everyone else seems to, but stopped shaving her arms when I told her I didn’t care if she had hair on them.

    The long and short of it is, modern culture does not favor the hirsute—admittedly, there’s significantly more pressure on women, but even hairy guys are generally considered less sexy than their than shaved and/or well-trimmed counterparts.

    I think it’s likely that men tend to have very strong subconscious opinions about hair: for my part, I realize that I very much associate hair with manliness, which is why I enjoy growing facial hair in a ridiculous analog of self-affirmation. In much the same way, I imagine that we tend to dislike hair on woman because the hair is associated with strength and manliness, and we don’t like our woman strong or manly. Over the years, I’m sure it’s developed into an æsthetic preference as well, and there are a lot of comingling factors that make the hair issue a hard nut to crack.

33. I remain wholly baffled by the “ewww, back hair!” phenomenon. I actually dated a guy once who apologized to me for being a little furry. I sort of stared and explained that the issue had never crossed my mind. Have I really been in a cultural black hole my whole life?

    On the topic of shaving down south, I prefer a bit of a trim, and I think it looks odd on most people to be completely clean shaven.

    As fas as asking goes, I think mentioning it once is fine. Pestering someone about or whining incessantly about how much better oral sex is sans all hair is not.

34. How do you feel about being asked by your partner to groom differently?

    Honestly? I’d dump him. I already maintain the legs and the pits and keep the hedges trimmed, for crying out loud. But I’m not getting ingrown hairs of the pubic variety just to meet some guy’s pornspectations.

    How do you feel about asking your partner to do something different?

    I wouldn’t. How he is, is how he is.

35. Cunnilingus is a little more up-close-and-personal with hair than fellatio, and trimming both (a) prevents hair from getting in the way, and (b) prevents long hair from getting in my teeth and throat. As I have a relatively tickly throat and strong gag reflex, this is sometimes important to me, as I imagine that there is very little as off-putting during oral sex as a crotch full of vomit.

    That’s, again, a preference, not a command.

    I find total shaving looks a little creepy.

    — ACS

36. I have requested the shaving of my spouse once or twice, she now does it occasionally because it’s fun and different. I hate the brazilian because it’s hair in exactly the wrong place, it tickles my nose during oral sex and makes me sneeze (it’s even worse if we’ve had corn for dinner). That’s not true of a fuller style, which she sports occasionally. She requests that I keep beardless, but when I have a few days growth, it doesn’t stop our relationship.

    I don’t think it’s a control issue or a pedophilia risk. Pubic hair grows in earlier than 18 for most, so it’s not a perfect match, and grows thinner as we age, so it’s not a risk for geratriphilia (sp?) either. It’s also a choice, both for my wife and I, as are the frequency, location, and page number of the carma sutra (just kidding, I know page 82 is off limits…)

37. The pubic hair shaving thing does damage to both women and men. Women feel pressure to shave their pubes because “everyone is doing it” or “that’s the style” or “that’s what men like.” But, are those statements true? Obviously everyone isn’t doing it – but we definitely get the message that if you want to be hot, you’d better do it. It also does a disservice to men, because they’re assumed or expected to like it. My bf doesn’t like it. He likes au natural. And according to the popular societal perception, now, he shouldn’t exist.

    It really makes you realize that actual people’s tastes are many and varied; the “popular perception” applies to only a few.

38. Cunnilingus is a little more up-close-and-personal with hair than fellatio, and trimming both (a) prevents hair from getting in the way, and (b) prevents long hair from getting in my teeth and throat. As I have a relatively tickly throat and strong gag reflex, this is sometimes important to me, as I imagine that there is very little as off-putting during oral sex as a crotch full of vomit.

    Andreas, interesting that you say that. This just proves my point that everyone is different! My boyfriend’s take is, he likes having hair there during oral sex, because it makes him feel like he’s “burying [his] face in it” more (to use his words).

39. This was a big issue with my husband. I married a much younger man who had been a bit of a loner in highschool. Thus just about every woman’s privates (lots of porn and a few girlfriends) he saw were depilated. To him it seemed a reasonable request, and when I told him I was shocked (mostly over the porn/pedophilia connotations) he said it was NOT about hairless kids, it was all about the eroticism of seeing “everything.” Sort of an ultimate nudity.

    I’ve gotten a Brazilian for him a few times, but the cost and inconvienience is a bummer. I have a high pain threshhold. I’d NEVER shave that area the stubble, itching and ingrown hairs would be a nightmare. But I do use a little groomer/trimmer thing to keep the hair short as a compromise.

    So anyway he is at least not aware that there are any pedophilia issues, and he seems sincere. This is VERY much a generational thing. My lefty male friends (in their 30s) have too look for 80s era Playboys now to see the naked women they prefer with hair, fewer implants and less airbrushing.

40. Oh, forgot to mention. I certainly believe that the total hairless look is really replusive on men and women. I had to not look at myself in the mirror until my hair grew out, or looking at myself destroyed my sex drive. REALLY not flattering to most people, I’d say.

    And having no hair makes clothing seem VERY itchy.

41. I think there’s also a perception of what pubic hair is “supposed” to look like, independent of what someone’s actual preferences are. I’ve had new partners express surprise when they see my pubic hair for the first time, as if it’s unusual that I don’t shave. And it’s never surprise-with-disgust, either. I’m wondering where they’re getting the idea that this is unusual from — pop culture? Porn? Other women they’ve been with? Men that they talk to?

42. I don’t shave my legs, but maybe I would if the hair were visible or coarse. I shave my pits when I’m going to be displaying them, but my husband prefers them unshaven for the smell and usually I have no preference, so right now they’re unshaven. For many years my crotch was au naturel: bushy and curly and wild. Now it’s usually trimmed. I do this because I am a huge fan of cunnilingus and my husband and friends find it easier to eat me out when I am trimmed.

    Both my husband and I are annoyed with the bare crotch on women trend, because it impacts us when we seek out extramarital casual sex. I’ve been pressured to shave or wax by men I’ve casually hooked up with. We’re not even in a relationship and they think they should tell me what to do with my body! My husband finds that bare women’s vulvas don’t have any scent, and so he has a hard time getting turned on by a shaved woman. He doesn’t pressure the people he sleeps with to change, but he will stop having sex with them, as he just doesn’t enjoy it, and I think that’s fair.

    I prefer men without facial hair. It’s entirely up to a man whether or not he wants to grow a beard, but if my husband chose to do so, I’d let him know (he already knows, actually) that it influences my attraction and we’d work it out, just like everything else in our marriage. He expresses disappointment when I shave my pits, but I certainly don’t interpret it as pressure or him trying to control me. Yes, our bodies are our own and there’s a lot of baggage around men’s control of women’s bodies (reproductive freedom anyone?) but in a relationship, I tend to believe everything is negotiable. If we can negotiate sex and money and who’s career is going to determine where we live, we can negotiate those things about our bodies that are easily changeable.

43. My preferences are a fairly old-fashioned. My range of ideal runs from full-on hippy/feminist no maintenance to classic-Playboy shaved legs, pits, and old-school bikini wax, but honestly I prefer more-hairy to less-hairy. Everybody has their own preference for their own reason, though — even though I’ll make my preference known, I won’t turn it into a request. I’m a hairy guy myself, and I have no intention of shaving (nevermind waxing), so I have to affirm that everybody’s choice is their own and I’ll go with it.

44. But it’s a good thing they never mentioned it, because I agree with Ann, poster number two. Wake UP ladies, this is OBVIOUSLY a control issue with overtones of pedophilia. It IS Pornification. It is not normal, not natural, and patriarchal.

    Depending on your culture body hair removal can be quite normal; in some cultures it’s been practiced for centuries. No, I’m not suggesting that this makes it “right,” I’m merely illustrating that it is, in fact, “normal.” It is only a control issue if a partner or potential partner insists that your body hair be groomed to his/her liking. Otherwise, it’s a preference -and possibly a request- and as easily disregarded as it is acquiesced to. Asking a woman to shave her pubic pair may have undertones of pedophilia –for some men- but I doubt that’s the driving force behind most men’s interest in the practice.

    It is to some extent “pornification” and there’s no denying that point. Men, not all but many, look at porn. Having done some informal polling of my guy friends I’ve found that their interest in the bare look has less to do with wanting a woman to look like a porn star and more to do with how much of a porn star’s body they can see. They like to look; the hair obscures the view. Simple and anecdotal to be sure, but it is a consideration and something that opened my mind a bit. It’s definitely patriarchal. I’m just not sure what can be considered non-patriarchal when it comes to Western (or Eastern for that matter) standards and practices for women’s beauty. Our entire concept of female beauty is patriarchal.

    Of course shaving body hair isn’t permanent, and for the most part it’s voluntary. But who on God’s earth likes it? MEN don’t even like to shave their faces.

    I like shaving my legs. I like the way it looks and I like the way it feels. My current partner likes it though he never complains when I don’t shave. I suspect that more than a conscious desire to subjugate women through grooming, many men like body hair removal because it seems feminine in the one of the most basic senses of the word: the opposite of masculine. The same reason that they like breasts and hips and rarely obsess over the womb-pooch (my expression for that lower belly that upsets so many women and, in my experience, is rubbed appreciatively by men) and long hair, and perfume, and soft skin. Hair removal enhances the tactile sensation of soft skin and many men like it.

    I’m not attempting to downplay the restrictive nature of the beauty myth as created and perpetrated by the patriarchy. I’m merely trying to point out that the whole pubic hair/no pubic hair/ groomed pubic hair rigamarole is not necessarily nefarious.

45. I never shaved my legs or pits because I didn’t see the point. (Social pressure never worked well on me.) I did trim/shave my pubes for a while because I read somewhere it made oral sex more intense. (I didn’t notice any difference.)

    My ex was covered in body hair and incredibly sensitive about it. He wouldn’t even go swimming because he didn’t want people to see his chest and back. I used to think if I could “fix” one thing about him, I’d open his eyes and make him see what a lovely body he really had.

46. Sigh, the body hair thing has been a point of contention in my current relationship. And I’m a bisexual female dating another bisexual female for almost two years.

    My girlfriend would never even trim her pubic hair if I didn’t remind her. Which she hates and gets uncomfortable about. However on the other side of the coin, she has very very thick very very long pubic hair and if it is not trimmed, I need two hands to hold it back so I can just find her vulva, which is always uncomfortable for me to get my hands in there to part it or else it sheds in my mouth. There is kinda a bad taste factor too, but I’ve never told her that because I think she would cry. If she trims it every couple months, it is tolorable. But she always acts like being asked to do so is hurtful, and I don’t know what to do about it. If she had her way, she would never do anything with it and I would never be able to go down on her without gagging. If I had my way and she just trimmed it monthly without being nagged, she would feel like she has to change her body to please me, which is kinda fucked up. So we’re just stuck. Sigh.

    Any help would be appreciated.

47. If an SO asked me, occasionally, to shave (legs, pubes, pits), I probably would – as long as it was only occasionally. If it became nagging or a demand, there would be trouble. I’ve only completely shaved my pubes off once, and as best I can remember, it was because I never had, and was curious about the result. It itched so much growing back that I have no desire to do it again (though I generally trim just a bit off when I go swimming). According to one SO, I’m hairier than a lot of women, but he didn’t have any problem with it.

    My first SO actually convinced me I should _stop_ shaving my legs: he found leg stubble uncomfortable, and thought shaving legs was kind of silly regardless, and I find shaving enough of a nuisance (I get stubbly again within hours), that I didn’t mind quitting, though it took me a long time to get used to the way my legs look when they are all hairy, and they get _really_ hairy. Later SOs have either stated an outright preference for hairy women, or said (next to) nothing, though one says he prefers the feel of shaved legs – but he’s never asked me to shave, and convinced one of his exes to stop shaving, because she tended to get keloids on her legs from shaving.

    Nowadays, I trim my armpit hair short with an electric trimmer – means less need for deodorant, and less moisture, so more comfortable – and trim my legs a bit in the summer, because it feels cooler, and because I’m really self-conscious about how hairy they are below the knees. I’ve grown the hair on my head long in part because an SO really likes long hair, though I think I will get fed up and hack it short(er) well before it hits the length he really likes. He didn’t ask me to, and we met when I had very short hair, so I’m not concerned he’d find me unattractive even if I returned to a really short haircut.

    I prefer clean shaven faces on my SOs (or a grown-out beard, since stubble is uncomfortable), but I’d never insist on it, and even with the guy who has said, “If you want me to shave, just say so,” I feel uncomfortable asking (and he shaves every day or two anyway). I’ve never had an SO with a hairy back, nor do I think I’d find it repulsive, since I like playing with thick chest hair. I’ve come to prefer hairier chests over smoother ones, probably because my favorite lovers have been hairier guys, though I must admit that it always bothers me when a guy wearing a button-up shirt has a few renegade hairs protuding from above the top button.

48. Lizzie, if her objection is that she doesn’t want to be bothered, you could take the burden and annoyance off of her by trying to make it part of the erotic experience: bath, trim, massage and head; or whatever dynamics work for the two of you.

    If her objection is really that she just wants to grow it long, that suggestion would just piss her off, and you’ll probably have to make you peace with it.

49. There’s ANOTHER column by the same author on leg shaving.

    HERE.

50. If I had my way and she just trimmed it monthly without being nagged, she would feel like she has to change her body to please me, which is kinda fucked up.

    See, maybe it’s me, but I honestly don’t think that is intrinsically fucked up. I’ve always been of the attitude that if you can do something that isn’t too labor-intensive or uncomfortable for you that will make your partner much happier, why wouldn’t you want to consider doing it? (Before anyone pounces on me about a laundry list of unreasonable demands by men of women, please note the “not too labor-intensive or uncomfortable” part.) I trim my pubic hair and keep my face smooth and stubble-free because I generally don’t find these things difficult and my girlfriend likes it that way, and if she’s happier I’m happier.

    As for advice, unfortunately, I dunno. It seems that your girlfriend views your issue with her fur as a personal rejection of her. Perhaps you just need to make it abundantly clear that this has nothing nothing NOTHING whatsoever to do with not finding her attractive and wonderful and etc. but just has to do with making the mechanics of sex that much easier.

51. For anyone as basically clumsy-fingered as me, shaving anything is just an invitation to a bloodbath, so I don’t do it. I’ve never understood how anyone gets their armpits completely clear of hair, anyway; the few times I tried it one shaved clean and the other had stubble. My husband knows better than to suggest any grooming changes. But then I’m not very hairy to start with.

52. I prefer a trim on women because I like to be able to go down on them without too much hassle. Some women need that more than others, as has been noted above. I’ve always shaved mine to a certain extent, because it’s not thick but extensive, and I don’t like its extensiveness, and never have. The fact that my husband REALLY likes that is just a nice side benefit.

    He’s not extensively hairy…his Native background is responsible for that, I think…but I’ve never asked him to shave anything for me. Except that since he will not grow out a beard (he’s blond, it comes in bright red), I do insist that he takes care of the stubble before he goes rubbing his face anywhere. Thirty-grit sandpaper is not appreciated.

53. a crotch full of vomit

    Great name for a punk band.

    it tickles my nose during oral sex and makes me sneeze (it’s even worse if we’ve had corn for dinner).

    I’m trying to figure out if this is some sort of euphemism that I’ve never heard before.

54. I’m not at all hairy; I only need to shave my face twice a week, so I get few grooming requests. The only thing I’ve asked of partners is to trim the pubic hair when it gets too long. That is only because too long of hair makes oral sex a lot less pleasant. I only ask that is is trimmed, not shaved or waxed.

    Spouse prefers to wax. I get the willies just thinking about it. It took some getting used to on my part, but if she wants to put herself through that, it’s her business.

55. Pingback: life inchoate » Blog Archive » shaving

56. My preference is for anything but wild growth. I enjoy giving head to my partner, but I enjoy it a lot more if I can find my way around. I have no strong preference between bare and trimmed, although bare is off-putting when all that has transpired is the replacement of hair by razorburn.

    For my own part, I shave somewhat infrequently (only when I know I’m about to have a visitor down there, and after that expect to have time to grow it out to a non-prickly length before another encounter), but keep a close trim in between.

    Further, it unsettles me when people accuse anyone who’d glance sidelong at a shaven crotch of pedophilia. Drawing on zuzu’s

    it’s hard to look at a naked body that has both bare pubes and G-cups and see anything remotely childlike about it

    I must say that breasts and pubes are not the only markers of feminine adulthood. There’s little reason to worry that you’re actually going to pass for a child… and if want to screen pedophiles out of your dating queue, cracking down on those with a preference for shaven crotches is going to give you a lot of both type 1 and type 2 errors.

57. The pubic hair shaving thing does damage to both women and men. Women feel pressure to shave their pubes because “everyone is doing it” or “that’s the style” or “that’s what men like.” But, are those statements true?

    I agree that the perception that “all women should be shaven/trimmed” is damaging to both genders in that it enforces the belief that women need to alter themselves for other people/that men are allowed to have unrealistic physical expectations of women. No one should force their preference on someone else, especially not for something as personal and subjective as physical grooming. And no one should be judging each individual partner by the generic, cookie-cutter mold that society tells us we need to fit in to.

    But I would definitely say the statement after is not true, at least not for me. I don’t shave to make men happy, or because I think I have to. I honestly can not stand having body hair on my own body, I’m extremely hyper-sensitive to how it feels, and to me it is not attractive [on my body – I’ve never had any problem with hair on other people, my preference is for my body alone.] I also simply like the act of shaving – maybe I’m a weirdo, but I find it enjoyable. It’s never bothered me, just like I never have any problem with stubble or itchiness. It’s a little irritating to hear people say I’m doing it for reasons I’m clearly not. I don’t care what’s beneath your undies, why do you care what’s beneath [or not beneath] mine?

    It’s ridiculous to tell all women who groom their pubic areas that they are doing it for patriarchal reasons. Yes, a lot of women do feel pressured to conform to some idiotic, unattainable standard, but not everyone who shaves their pubic hair does so because they want to look like a porn star, or, God forbid, a 12 year old girl. Isn’t it possible that for some of us, it’s just…actually more comfortable? [And my apologies if my quote tags don’t work.]

58. When my pubic hair is too long, it becomes really itchy and uncomfortable and wearing underwear in that state makes me wanna die. So I trim it with an electric razor. Yayyyyyy. 🙂

    As for asking a partner for some sort of grooming request… I DO have a huge thing about excessive body hair. I don’t like having a really hairy partner. And this is only limited to partners; I don’t care what friends, family, acquantainces, etc do. I simply look for men who are already not that hairy so there are no grooming requests to be made. o.O

59. I don’t shave, trim, etc. My problem with this whole shaven vs. unshaven debate is the judgements made against me because I don’t “groom” my pubic hair. Just last weekend I was having brunch with friends. Two of them waxed, I don’t. Then they bust out the, “well it just feels cleaner.” To which I have to remind them, “What you feel is hairless. You are no cleaner than me. The only thing that makes your pussy clean is soap and water (and there are some gynes out there that say you don’t even need the soap.)

    I really, really don’t like that I’m being made out to be somehow dirtier and less clean because I haven’t shaved my pubic hair into a replica of Elvis or something.

    Also, as someone who visits a sex site regularly, I see a little of picture of men’s penises. :::Sigh::: Not because I want to, trust me, but somewho they have it in their heads that women are just dying to see their “3-inch dagger of despair.” Anyway…what overwhelmingly see are men that are trimmed and/or shaved…completely. I’m not saying guys that flash their bits on a sex site serve as a sample of men as a whole, just saying that I’ve actually noticed it.

    Bottom line, I believe as a sign of sexual maturity and just plain old respect for your partner, you should accept and respect whatever choice your partner makes in grooming their private parts. I want my partner to feel his absolute best and feel his sexiest be with his pubic hair or without. It almost goes without saying that he must have the same respect for me and what I choose to do…or not.

60. I trim about once a month before my period hits — I happily wear pads, but I hate having to pick tissue outta my pubes in my morning showers. Thus: trim. As for legs, I shave ’em whenever I stop feeling lazy and decide that I’d rather like to feel silky and velvety in my jeans. The pits get shaved when the aggravation from the prickly stubble outweights the aggravation of shaving spots I can’t specifically look at without a mirror.

    My current beau doesn’t care what fur I wear down there, and he doesn’t seem to mind furry legs either — he claims he can’t really feel the difference, unless it’s there one hour and gone the next. Which is nice, because it means I can be as lazy as I like 🙂 My ex used to wheedle me to keep it trimmed, if not shaven, because he’s a bit body-hair phobic (shaves all of his, etc.) and prefers the feel of bare skin. I groomed more often when I was still sleeping with him, but all in all I prefer the lack of pressure.

61. I used to trim when I was very sexually active, but those days have changed and I don’t bother anymore. No man has ever asked to me to shave my pubes — or not to, I did it as young woman and mostly for own satisfaction and thinking it was ‘sexy’. I know some men mentioned it as in, “Oh, you shave.” but that’s as far as it would get.

    The first time I did a complete was when I was about seventeen, read about it in a porn mag and wanted to try it. My beau was unimpressed and I did get bothered by the fact that when I looked down I seemed to be looking at myself at the age of 10 or earlier.

    In my present relationship, my partner has a lot of chest hair, which I love. He has hairy legs, chest and ass and some on the back. The back I don’t care about either way, the rest I adore. I wouldn’t say I would select or reject a man based on body hair or lack thereof (I’ve fallen pretty deep for sparsely haired men), but I do find the hair-bear sexually appealling to me.

    My life is my work right now and that involves wearing jeans and boots and T-shirts, no hairy skin shows so I don’t bother.

    One thing that really bothered me in the past though was wearing panty hose with unshaven legs. That can get uncomfortable and the jobs or occasions that required a skirt or dress with panty hose, a leg shave was mandatory.

    Also, my present man, the hairy one, much to my surprise upon our getting to know eachother, confessed that he prefers women who have pubic hair and lots of it. That was a first and quite amused me.

    He is definately a ‘come as you are’ type of guyl and wouldn’t think of telling me what to wear or how to look, in fact, I have often joked that it seems to matter so little to him that I swear if I walked out in public with him with bedhead, he’d never say a word. He’ll usually tacitly agree, telling me that how I look is my deal to worry for, not his.

    I know that I have attached a lot of my esteem to my appearance and how well it conforms with the latest, or exudes some sort of statement to or impression upon, others. I realize my shortcomings and have learned to live with those I can’t change. Being clean, neat and at least not a shock to the eyes is what I strive for on a daily basis. The rest is extra work and worth it to me only if its to acheive a specific goal (in business let’s say).

62. My first boyfriend pressured me into shaving my pubic hair completely fairly early on in our relationship (I think I may have been 15), and all his negative comments when I let it grow back stuck with me. Even after that relationship eneded I stuck with shaving becuase I thought “well, that’s what I have to do to be attractive”. But there came a point where all I could think was “god damn, I hate having to deal with ingrown hairs every day. This is painful. Why do I still do this?”.

    So now I’m not always sure what my opinion on the body hair issue is. I don’t care what my partner does. It’s his body, he’s free to make his own descisions. And he lets me make mine as well, which at this point is keeping things a bit more natural. I shave my legs and underarms once every week or two when I’m not terribly busy. And I’ve grown to really like having pubic hair. So it’s been there to some degree for the past year. Honestly, not dealing with razor burn has been the biggest plus.

63. Kate, your guy reminds me of myself in some ways, but not in others.

    I’ve kind of become one of the girls with some of my friends, in that I’m able to hold my own in conversations about clothes and hair and stuff. I keep it to myself, though, when I’m getting to know a girl, and certainly in the “courtship” phase. I’d be a lot more comfortable talking clothes at the relationship stage. I guess my point is that it’s not that I don’t care what my friends (or women I date), but that I only care when we can bond over it.

    I’ve never understood, and can’t fucking stand, guys who think it’s their place and their right to tell their girlfriend what to wear. I think it’s closely tied to the idea that the girlfriend in an accessory that he can use to impress other people. See the “no fat chicks” syndrome for a parallel.

64. Shasta, that drives me nuts too! Or when it’s refered to as hygeine, as if you know, not shaving your pubes is the same as not taking a bath. Of course, the worst thing ever was when someone on vaginapagina actually believed her dumbass boyfriend when he said that this girl had slept with once had pubic dreadlocks. Because you know, he slept with a chick who never bathes, I guess.

65. Oh what an interesting thread!

    First off, let me amend my previous comment thusly: I wholly support the right of each and every one of you to do whatever you want with your own body! I really am a live-and-let-live bleeding heart Liberal.

    THAT SAID, I DO think EVERYONE should think about WHY they do what they do, look into their underlying assumptions, and seek to discover if they are being manipulated by, say, big business, for instance, or by anti-feminist forces, and the like. I think at one time this was known as consciousness-raising, and it doesn’t just apply to the issue of feminism, sometimes it applies to issues like racism, and class issues. It is a process of Questioning your assumptions, and I think it is invaluable to any intelligent person. We don’t live in a vacuum. We are told all the time in myriad ways how we “should” be. How we “should” be benefits someone, usually. Sometimes it is US (don’t smoke cigarrettes) and sometimes it is OTHERS (Buy cigarrettes!)

    There is NO DOUBT that females are expected and sometimes REQUIRED to modify their bodies to conform to societal standards in ways that MEN are NOT. There is NO QUESTION that this is unfair, and suspect. When the only defense of a body-modification behavior is “everyone is doing it” or “it’s unfashionable NOT to”, those are cases where it warrants a deeper look.

    In regards to my statement above:”MEN don’t even like to shave their faces”, I will amend that to say “No man I have ever known enjoyed shaving their face, and usually only did it every few days, at most.” It’s true I am given to Hyperbole, I need to watch that. Shaving is No Problem for the non-hairy, and if you are not hairy at all, you probably aren’t really experiencing what the rest are. For people with nice thick hair, often BLACK, ever springing…..! My stepmother had WHITE skin (she was a New Yorker) and BLACK leg hair, and as the Pubic Five O Clock Shadow Person commented above, you could see it LONG before it broke the skin. THis is the case for many people re: Underarms and pubes. Why should these people be made to feel badly? All over the world people are natural, and don’t give it a thought. Only in America are we “disgusted”. I think that as a culture we are being manipulated to the MAX by people who want to
    1) make money off of selling us stuff to make our bodies “acceptable” and
    2) Keep females in particular so worried and obsesssed with their appearances that we never pay any attention to issues that REALLY affect us, such as, I don’t know, Healthcare and equal wages and blame-the-victim rape laws and goddamn CHILDCARE for WORKING MOTHERS and things like that that actually MATTER.

    I guess I’m taking up enough space. My final comment is, I think making men feel badly about chest hair and back hair and (now, apparently) the Hair on their BALLS (!) is equally ridiculous and manipulative. The answer to requiring women to constantly fiddle with their body hair ISN’T to require that men do it too.

66. I really, really wish I could edit my comment. For cripes sake, the typos! Anyway, yeah Shannon, when one tries to make a character assumption about you based on your pubic hair, things are out of control.

    And I am soooo made at “pubic dreadlocks!” LOL. No WAY! I’m mad that dude had the balls to say that, even madder that chick believed it!

    :::Sigh::: “Intelligent Design” my big, beige ass…

67. I don’t like stubble, and neither does my SO. Neither of us shaves anything. I used to shave my pits, legs, and crotch, but gave it up years ago (and I haven’t since) because I kept cutting myself and getting painful, infected ingrown hairs. As I’ve been getting older, my hair has just been getting curlier and curlier, so that’s a problem. Besides, my SO keeps telling me how much he likes my “bush,” so why not keep it bushy? 🙂

    I’d never even think of waxing anything; I have enough pain just in my normal existence to want to deliberately inflict that on myself. I’m also allergic to nylons; they break my legs out in red welts, so if I ever wear skirts (hardly ever), I wear long skirts and tall socks. Nobody really ever even sees anything of mine that the culture dictates “should” be shaved.

    I think there’s a tremendous amount of social pressure to do so; the people here who refer to being “groomed” and “maintained” to me bespeak that quite handily. Personally, I don’t think this phenomenon is much different from the sentiments in the douche ads that were up at Pandagon yesterday. Could be that “hairy” is the new “stinky.”

68. Sigh (again). On the subject of pubic dredlocks, I can verify their existence. Bathing really has nothing to do with them. My girlfriend bathes almost every day (multiple times a day in the summer with no A/C), and she gets them. Don’t ask me how, because I have no clue, but she gets them with some regularity.

69. I agree that the perception that “all women should be shaven/trimmed” is damaging to both genders in that it enforces the belief that women need to alter themselves for other people/that men are allowed to have unrealistic physical expectations of women.

    YES. From the time when I was old enough to grow leg hair, I did not like shaving. I’d cut myself, it was a pain in the ass, it took a long time, I had to wash the tub out after – I just didn’t like it. After a while, I stopped caring what people said at school and just quit shaving. But I’d still have arguments with my dad that went like this.

    Dad: (catches a glimpse of my hairy legs) Shave your legs!
    Me: No.
    Dad: You NEED to shave your legs! That’s gross.
    Me: Dad, they’re my legs and I’ll do what I want with them. Mind your own business.
    Dad: Just shave your damn legs! That’s completely disgusting.

    This was my father. And this didn’t just happen once, it was a constant thing. Whenever I was wearing something that allowed him to notice my leg hair we would have this argument. So yes, it is completely and totally fucked up that women are expected to shave their body hair for men. This is the kind of thing you get.

    don’t shave, trim, etc. My problem with this whole shaven vs. unshaven debate is the judgements made against me because I don’t “groom” my pubic hair. Just last weekend I was having brunch with friends. Two of them waxed, I don’t. Then they bust out the, “well it just feels cleaner.” To which I have to remind them, “What you feel is hairless. You are no cleaner than me. The only thing that makes your pussy clean is soap and water (and there are some gynes out there that say you don’t even need the soap.)

    …And this, too. I got this just last month from my best friend. You know what, if someone WANTS to shave their pubic hair, I don’t have the first problem with it, but don’t fucking tell me it makes you cleaner and then give me a horrified disgusted look when I disagree, like I’m too dirty to sit on your fucking couch.

    Oh and for the record? I never would have dreamed of asking a guy to shave his pubic hair, even if it did make oral easier. It simply would never occur to me in a million years. Yet the people closest to me WHO I AM NOT EVEN HAVING SEX WITH feel like they get to judge what I do with my body hair? Screw that.

70. Most shavers leave the triangle and get rid of the rest. No baby look, but easy to clean.

71. i personally go shaved. well, mostly. when i remember to shave. its always at least trimmed. and my boyfriend keeps his hair trimmed as well. for us, it is just about comfort. we have both gone thru phases where we didnt shave and let it grow all wild and neither of us minded. there are certain things that are “easier” if the hair is at least kept short. but i dont think it makes you cleaner. you can be bare, but if you dont wash, its just nasty anyway. so as far as the cleaniless goes, it doesnt matter if you practice good hygeine. it should only be a personal preference and if your partner doesnt like your preference then they are not the best partner for you then.

72. I’m naturally hairy all over, and I leave all my hair (even the legs) as is (well, other than the obvious combing and haircuts for the hair on the head). I find hair removal painful even on my relatively insensitive lower legs; I’m sure not about to try it on a more sensitive part of my body. And my husband’s fine with me hairy, and I like his beard, chest hair, and even his back hair, so we’re well matched in that way.

    As a matter of general principle, I agree that suggestions about appearance are OK, as long as they’re just suggestions or requests and not pressuring or whining after someone has said no. But for me, they need to be very gentle suggestions indeed, because the one friend who was most forceful in telling me how I ought to be dressed also turned out to be the friend who basically attacked me. So telling me to do anything about my appearance is triggering for me.

    Joel’s allowed, though, to suggest that I buy myself new clothes once in a while :-).

73. [I should note that I’m male in case that’s an important distinction for the discussion, since my name might not make that readily apparent.]

    I found this post through a chain of links and wanted to chime in on a few of the things in the original post. I haven’t had the time to read all the comments yet, although the ones I’ve read have been interesting.

    I’m a pretty hairy guy and I will say that the back hair issue noted in the original post is really quite prevalent — much more so than a lot of people think. I can’t even count how many times people made jokes about men with back hair, equating it with all kinds of things from being unintelligent to being unclean to being barbaric and violent. I’m also fat, and having lived my whole life with both issues, I will say that having a lot of body hair is the one that I find harder to deal with. In 2001, I went on a Caribbean cruise with my wife and brought a book along for a sailing and snorkeling tour she wanted to do because I didn’t feel comfortable taking my shirt off in front of other people. The people running the tour eventually cajoled me into doing so but it was the first time I’d ever had my shirt off in public since hitting puberty, and even then it was only something I managed because there were only three other people (plus the two guys running the tour) there and they were all already in the water. I’ve gone swimming at beaches a couple of times since, but only with great trepidation and discomfort each time and only when we’ve been on vacation and whoever I was with really wanted to do whatever water-based thing we were going to do, such that I felt guilty about possibly making them miss out. I haven’t yet gotten the courage up to go to any of our local beaches. I *love* swimming, but I find it impossible to do so. I don’t go to pool parties or to the local YMCA. Even small pool parties at friends’ places get some excuse made up. I’ve been trying to nerve myself up to go to the beach because I feel that it’s something I *should* be able to do and because I want any other guys who might have the same issue to feel like they can too, but I’m not quite there yet. Heck, I still not only cover up completely all the time, but I shave the back of my neck between my haircut and the tops of my shoulders so there’s not even the hint around the collar.

    Mostly I wanted to say that it’s pretty meaningful to me that the article acknowledged the existence of the issue at all.

    [In terms of the pubic area issue at hand, I’ve shaved, trimmed, and neither-ed at various times, mostly for comfort rather than aesthetics. I think, from discussions with other men, that more men do this than people think. Still, I know the pressures on that front aren’t the same as for women. I’ve been with partners who have also trimmed, shaved or neither-ed and it’s never made a huge difference to me. None of my partners have had physiques that would allow even the slightest interpretation of their bodies as pre-pubescent, regardless of the state of their public hair. Sometimes the variations were interesting just in that it changed the way things felt, but it’s not anything I would ever think to make any sort of requirement, even if I thought making such requirements were a valid thing to do.]

74. Mostly I wanted to say that it’s pretty meaningful to me that the article acknowledged the existence of the issue at all.

    Thanks. I’m working up a post on what it feels like for men to be desired, or not, though I haven’t quite worked it out.

    If I may ask, where did you link from?

75. I’m so glad we’re having this conversation! It’s something I’ve wondered about a lot. I feel incredibly lucky that my boyfriend, whom I’ve dated for the past 2.5 years, actually prefers my vagina totally unshaved. Though I don’t mind shaving my underarms and legs every few days/week respectively, I’ve always hated the itchy red bumps I got from shaving my bikini line (and don’t talk to me about waxing; in my mind, having your pubes waxed = paying someone to torture you).

    But I’d always worried that I would have a hard time finding a man who was attracted to me. After the ease and comfort of not shaving at all for several years, I can’t bear the thought of going back to the red bumps, stubble, itchyness, and pain. So, I think I’ll be staying au natural for the long term. But it’s nice to hear that trimming is a painless, itch-less option for a compromise, AND that there are other men out there who don’t need a hairless woman. This conversation basically reminds me that these questions don’t come with one-size-fits-all answers, and so much depends on context.
    One of my favorite recent awkward moments was when, a few years ago, I was in a conversation with a number of people, male and female, that I knew but didn’t know *that* well. Somehow (yes, “somehow,” I honestly don’t remember how) the conversation turned to waxing. I was too shy to state that I did not shave/wax, and that my bf preferred it that way. One man in the group, however, after listening to a couple of the women talk about how necessary waxing was, said shyly, “I feel like there’s really been some sort of misunderstanding about this whole thing…” He was too embarassed to go on, but he clearly wanted to say that he didn’t think that as many men as we thought preferred women shaved. He definitely gained points in my book.

76. Thanks. I’m working up a post on what it feels like for men to be desired, or not, though I haven’t quite worked it out.

    I’ll be interested to read that.

    If I may ask, where did you link from?

    A friend’s livejournal. She didn’t actually link to this article, but rather to the blog in general as the source of a quote she liked.

77. If,
    Thanks for speaking out. I think the pain that a lot of men feel at their intense embarrassment about their non-airbrushed, non-perfect bodies is not spoken about enough. My boyfriend will not take his shirt off in public. Ever. No Matter What. Because he thinks he’s too fat. Which makes me so sad. He’s maybe 20 lbs overweight. But he hates hates hates his body so much. I certainly won’t argue that there’s as much (in terms of quantity) pop culture obsessing over men’s bodies as women’s, but there’s quite enough to make a lot of men ashamed. And that’s a terrible thing, as much as it’s a terrible thing for women to feel ashamed.
    I know it’s a tempting thing for feminists to make fun of the appearance of women-hating men for being fat, hairy, small-dicked, etc. But I think that’s ultimately a destructive way to approach the problem.

78. Ah, the Dworkin quote. That one’s getting around.

79. Thanks for speaking out. I think the pain that a lot of men feel at their intense embarrassment about their non-airbrushed, non-perfect bodies is not spoken about enough. My boyfriend will not take his shirt off in public. Ever. No Matter What. Because he thinks he’s too fat. Which makes me so sad. He’s maybe 20 lbs overweight. But he hates hates hates his body so much. I certainly won’t argue that there’s as much (in terms of quantity) pop culture obsessing over men’s bodies as women’s, but there’s quite enough to make a lot of men ashamed. And that’s a terrible thing, as much as it’s a terrible thing for women to feel ashamed.

    It was actually a comment on the Fat Boyfriend thread that helped me see that a new crush’s behavior probably had less to do with rejection of me or game-playing than body-image issues — issues I never really thought of men having, because they’re the ones who are supposed to be looking, right?

    I’ve also seen some posts, or at least comments, on other blogs — though one reason I hadn’t really formulated a post on it yet was that one of the best posts I’d seen on it tied male body hatred into rape, and it was just too close to those goddamn missing-the-point threads on Jennifer Moore for me to pursue them.

80. I don’t believe that anyone has the right to demand anything from another person. In my opinion, if you don’t like the way someone looks, then don’t date them. Grown people have hair. We need to get over it. Some people are hairier than others. In general, you can tell in their clothed state if they’re hairy or not…although I had a boyfriend with sparse arms and legs, but he had mondo chest hair and pubes. He even had a hairy ass, which I don’t like. But you know what? I learned to like it, b/c I liked him, so I liked his hairy ass.

    I have trimmed a couple times, and I have shaved a couple times. I don’t like the feeling. And it’s not the feeling of ingrown hairs that I don’t like. It’s the feeling when I pee. For some reason, surface tension comes into play when you have no hair, and when I pee, it goes ALL OVER. I have to use a ton of toilet paper to wipe it off, b/c it just runs everywhere before it finally gets into the toilet. Anyone else have this problem? And when I was younger, the big problem when I had my period was the blood gushing out the back. When I’m trimmed and/or shaved, the blood actually gushes out the front. Apparently, the hair (I have a dense area right over my clitoris) acts as a barrier for the menses.

    So, I have decided to stop shaving and trimming and just let it go back to the way it was in my 20’s. And since it never occurred to me to trim it or shave it until recently, it’s obviously a cultural phenomenon. The women all look like that in porn nowadays. Men oftentimes will claim that it’s some sort of inborn desire they have, but it’s all manipulation by the media. People are attracted to images that they see over and over. It’s simple.

81. There was a great scene in The Sopranos with Steve Buscemi playing Tony’s cousin Tony Blundetto, who’d gone to prison with another guy for 15 years taking a dive — anyway, they’re at the Bada Bing, and all they can talk about is how the girls all have shaved pubes now.

    So, yeah, fashions change. Like I said, just look at vintage Playboys.

82. Two comments I’d like to add to my previous male-body-image comment (then I’ll stop, I swear): although there are a lot more messages telling women to judge their bodies then there are telling men to judge theirs, there’s also a lot more support for women than for men who are trying not to do so. My boyfriend would never dream of telling another soul how he feels about his body; there’s just no precedent for men to share things like that with each other, or even with most women. I also think that a by-product of a certain strain of sex-positive-feminism and/or raunch culture is that more women than ever feel comfortable talking about how they love hot hard male bodies and generally evaluating male bodies the same way they expect men to evaluate theirs: critically.
    Ok, I’m done. Sorry to ramble off topic so much! I’m really looking forward to your post, Zuzu.

83. You know, I can’t think of a time when I’ve been asked by a partner to shave any part of my body. I had a boyfriend a long time ago who said he wasn’t too keen on hairy armpits, but it was a statement of preference (almost like he was saying he likes strawberry ice cream more than vanilla) rather than a request. Early on when I was dating my fiance, I made apologies for my hairy legs (I usually do shave my legs but since I normally wear pants, I never quite see the point of shaving if no one is going to see them. They tend to remain noticeably hairy.) But my fiance usually reponds with “Well, people have hair on their bodies,” and leaves it at that. I don’t think it has ever really bothered him. I don’t shave below simply because I never have. He’s never asked me to and I don’t think he would, but if he did, I’d probably answer with, “You first.”

84. I had a European boyfriend (he didn’t speak my language and I barely spoke his, *insert gratuitous “international language” comment here*). He was about a foot taller than me and had thick hair on his chest. The hair wasn’t the problem, but the fact that he did not carefully wash it was. My nose was there a lot of the time and the smell made me gag.

    As for me, I’m HIRSUTE and if we get close, look for that cute little pilonidal cyst scar at the top of my buttocks crack. I’m still pretty young and I hear I’m quite attractive. But, boy, am I hairy.

    If I had a dime for every woman who has said to me, “Oh, I would give anything for your hair,” you know what I would be. But, you know, that luscious blonde mane on my head means lotsa hair everywhere. The older I get, the more hair I have in places women aren’t “supposed” to have hair. Pubes down my upper thighs and up to my belly button, around my aureolae, on my feet, on my toes.

    In the shower, I “shampoo” with liquid Dove, so cleanliness is not an issue. If I shave, I IMMEDIATELY break out in painful, itchy, red bumps. If I trim, I can’t leave my house because I have to stay home to scratch my crotch. I had given up swimming entirely before Land’s End came out with their bottoms shaped like shorts and those have air-bubble issues, so I’ve since switched to boy trunks. And get an alarming amount of hostility about it, especially from the women in my life.

    And I agree that this is a recent cultural preference. Disgust over my body hair has been a deal breaker only in the last five years or so (and I really mean disgust). European dude loved my body, hair and all, and much older men never say a thing. It’s peers and younger. And from my arms, it should be obvious that I’ve got a ton of hair.

    Sigh, makes me wistful for the days when men were dying to see my pubic hair to see if that blonde hair was real or came out of a bottle.

85. I don’t know if anyone has mentioned the COST of waxing (yeah, I know you can try the at-home waxing or depilation, or just shave, but it doesn’t always turn out very well). If you want to get it done where it’s sanitary for sure (i.e. the most upscale salon with a reputation to maintain), a Brazilian bikini wax goes for $72. That’s in the suburbs, too, I don’t even live in an expensive big city like NYC or San Francisco where I’m sure it costs even more. And you have to get it done several times a year, too, so that’s likely going to be upwards of $200. Considering how many financial problems most Americans allegedly have, it seems like a pretty expensive “preference” for these women to maintain.

86. Hmmm. My hubby is the other way around – he likes women au natural. I DO shave my pits and my legs (though the latter not too frequently), at which point he pouts at me for depriving him of his toys. He really cannot understand why I would want to remove the “soft, yummy fuzz” (his words) mother nature graced me with.

    I, however, am a true victim of the patriarchy, and find it difficult to expose fuzzy pits or wlk around with hairy legs in summer.

87. I’ve asked all the boys and men I’ve been with if they think I’m too hairy. (And believe me, I am hairy. I see it as an adaption to the cold climate of my birth place.) The response is usually a Crocodile Dundee style “You think that is hairy? _This_ is hairy!” or, for the less hairy men, “As long as you’ve got less leg hair than I do, it’s OK.”

    I’m quite proud of my fur.

88. Before I was married I was creeped out by anyone who had any “suggestions” as to how I should look. My spouse has never made such a suggestion, which I have always appreciated. In my younger, pre-married days, I was too young and lacked enough self-esteem to say anything to those ever-so-helpful partners about how offensive and creepy such suggestions were to me, the relationships never lasted long after the suggestion was made. I find that yes, shaving/waxing said pubic areas has some practical (i.e. intimate) applications, but my feeling is that if things are too wooly, I am more than happy to hold the hair out of the way. And as for me, I’m willing to hack up some hair in order to have fun. I would never make such a request of my spouse, and never made a comment to the guy I dated with back stubble (because, yes he shaved his back, although I never worked out who was helping him – his sister, mom or dad) or a suggestion that he try hair implants (because the hair on his back never made it to his head), or for goodness sake, trim the forest that was HIS pubic area. Why? Because it’s not my stuff to trim/maintain/live with and if I want it bad enough, if HE wants it bad enough, then such goodies should be taken, accepted, and enjoyed in whatever form said goodies are packaged. I guess that’s why I always found those requests repugnant – because some things are mine to maintain and groom as I choose and if my intimate partner cannot deal with it, then that’s too bad. It isn’t that I feel all “delicate and precious flower” about my vagina, but my goodness, it’s mine!! And it is delicate and gives me a lot of pleasure, so I will tend it in the way that causes the least discomfort and is most comfortable for me!

    Just my feeling, I certainly understand that others feel differently and I respect such feelings – if you are brave enough to wax, heck, if you like to wax, then wax-on my friend. I choose to wax-off. For me, the pubes are non-negotiable, don’t like wax, and barely tolerate the razor. It is enough that I muster enough alertness in the morning to shave my legs and underarms. DO NOT ask me to tackle my pubes without coffee as well.

89. I would like to amend my above post to clarify that I don’t particularly care about where the hair on my partner grows or does not grow (I made a comment about a former partner’s back hair and lack of hair on the head). It is only when “suggestions” i.e. criticisms of my own hair growth patterns or preferences comes into question that I feel unusually snarky. I truly do not care where or if the hair grows, as long as my own hair – head, leg, underarm, pubic, etc. – is left out of the conversation. I mean, who can truly control hair?!?

    Just wanted to clarify that I am, at heart, a hair lover. Or at least don’t care about the quantity or location of a partner’s hair. And now want to break into any number of songs from the musical Hair.

    Ann

90. Like I said, just look at vintage Playboys.

    After January, 1971. Before that, the centerfolds were a bit more coy, shall we say.

    But it’s a very good point. One of the many (many) reasons I prefer vintage to the new stuff.

91. You know, my shaving of my pubic area is only for practical use.
    But I don’t shave the entire thing, that’s way too painful and uncomfortable for me to just “put up with.” I used to shave the whole thing but as I said, was just too much for me to “deal with” so I freaked out and stopped totally.

    My boyfriend made the suggestion that I shave and I finally gave my complaints and then he said NO NO NO I don’t want you to shave the whole thing! and then explained what he wanted. It made much more sense and *sigh* It’s just good.

    I hate totally shaving, I have a big pubic mound that I have to play down with hair. haha

92. I’ve been asked to shave that area before, and my response was always the same: “Sure, honey. We’ll shave together.” None of my partners ever brought it up again, which pleased me because I still believe that anyone who can’t handle a bit of pubic hair isn’t worth keeping around and is probably broken on some level.

    That said, I don’t think that everyone who enjoys the shaved look/sensation is a pervert. I do, however, believe that people who are that involved in their partners’ grooming habits are not as interested in the emotional and intellectual aspects of their relationships as they might be. Admittedly, this belief is a generalization based on my own experience, but it’s one that has served me well.

    For the record, I am now married to a man who doesn’t care if I shave my legs or not. In fact, he once dared me to let my armpit hair grow into bushes. He did ask me to shave my head once, but that was only because he likes the way it’s shaped and wants more access to it. Sadly, he will never have it; I like my hair long, and I would never stop shaving my armpits. Acculturation will out, I suppose.

93. Grooming is such a personal thing. Still, when I love and trust the people I’m in relationship with I’ll do anything in my power to humor them, including shave the pubies if it turns them on.

    I have a hair disorder, so shaving is generally a non-issue. I lasered off what remaining hair bothered me (generally, anything that would stick out of a bathing suit). Consequently, from the neck down I’m (almost) as bald as a hairless cat!

    When I have hair between my legs (it comes and goes), I keep the triangle trimmed and shave what’s below. I keep my naughty bits smooth because I’ve noticed men like to spend more time with their faces between my legs when I’m bare, and I really, reaaaallllly like that.

    For the record, I think goatees and back hair on attractive, non-obese men are sexy. I love furry men!

94. I’d just like to give a great big bravo/brava to everyone who has posted on here. I’m WAY too shy to discuss my bodyhair, even on the net. You’re a braver lot than I am.

95. I’ve shaved since I was about 15, and I don’t recall ever doing it because of any kind of outside pressure–more than likely I got the idea from some smutty story site. I stopped shaving my legs about the same time and stopped shaving the pits at 17, meaning the poon is the only area I’ve shaved for 5 years (minus one singular pit-shaving experiment, done for the benefit of my easily-embarrassed mother on a familiy vacation). I would say overall I’ve been with many more women who were unshorn (or merely trimmed) than shorn. I’ve only been with one other woman who shaved completely (as I do- leaving a triangle, in my opinion, is silly).

    My current SO just tried waxing for the first time (she’s pretty hairy and regularly gets lasered) and is pretty smitten with it, but it was by no means my idea. Did I find her bush a little annoying? Yes, at times. Did I ever tell her she should shave? Never, and I wouldn’t have considered it.

    As for the aesthetics of the thing- I’m not sexually attracted to little girls, nor do I want anyone to treat me like a little girl. I think sometimes a bush is just a bush.

96. Kathy McCarty: I definitely agree that for a lot of people, not shaving is much more comfortable. A close friend of mine from military cadets had very dark hair, and a lot of body hair. Shaving her legs meant horribly irritated skin and ingrown hairs that were very noticeable. For her, I’m sure not shaving at all would have been the better option. [I, on the other hand, have very light hair that isn’t much more than peach fuzz. It’s all over my body except for my pubic area, but almost completely invisible. It does, however, make it impossible to use stuff like Spirit Gum to attach masks/prosthetics to my face or body. I found that out the hard way last Halloween when I glued an eye-mask on and ripped out copious amounts of hair trying to remove it. Don’t even get me started on those “peel-off” skin masks…Ouch!]

    And I think you make a good point that society tries to distract women by focusing on completely ridiculous “beauty standards” instead of real issues that affect us. Pubic hair doesn’t rape someone. Underarm hair doesn’t abuse it’s spouse. Not wearing make-up isn’t going to cause someone to bomb an abortion clinic. It’s such a trivial issue, 1) because we’re people, not pre-packaged Barbie dols, and 2) because it has absolutely no bearing on the world around us, yet we’re told every day by the media that it is. The entire news media is on “Celebrity Baby Bump Watch” 24-7 while women and men every day are being murdered, raped, beaten, abused, and harassed. And we’re being told that we need to center our lives around the daily doings of people we don’t even know!

    While I’m definitely not advocating people insist their partners change personal grooming habits to conform with what they prefer, I don’t really see most suggestions as being too nefarious. My husband and I both know that if the other person has really noxious breath, we’re free to let them know. In our relationship, the pubic hair issue is basically the same thing – if it’s affecting the other person in a way, it’s totally kosher to make a small request or talk to the other person about it. It’s never phrased like a demand, merely a statement or request. The other person can do something about it if they like, but they’re not under penalty of death or the relationship-ending for not complying.

    And I’ve definitely thought a lot about my own personal preferences and how they’re influenced/not influenced by society/patriarchal “norms”. While I know it’s “expected” of women to shave or trim their body hair, I don’t feel that’s why I have to do it. When I had pubic hair, it was constantly getting stuck through my underpants and pulled out [extremely painful, long a prolonged tweeze :(]. My body also loves to produce natural lubricant, and having pubic hair usually meant that between one shower to another, I’d end up with a gross, sticky and tangled pubic area. One night after peeling my underpants off myself for the six millionth time, I took some scissors and started trimming. By the time I finished, I decided I might as well go whole-hog and shave it all off. I was 14 at the time, definitely not sexually active and not really thinking of what other people would care about the hairstyle below my belt buckle, since no one else was going to see it. I’ve partially grown it in a few times [mostly on the pubic mount, not near the lips], but find that even sparse pubic hair is still less comfortable for me than none at all. My most close female friends never cared about what I did with my pubic hair, and those are the ones I bathed with/was naked with on a regular basis. Funny enough, a lot of female friends who aren’t close feel perfectly fine about telling me how “crazy” I am to shave because “it makes you look like a baby down there” [uh, no, it doesn’t], and “It’s so itchy and uncomfortable!” [not for me]. And these are women who’ve never even seen me naked! [Of course, these are also the women who quite regularly make cracks about my breasts/weight/hair colour. You know what, ladies? Being called a “skinny blonde bitch” hurts just as much as any “fat” comment. And no, they’re definitely not doing it in a joking or friendly manner, no matter how they try pass it off.

    [And I hate to say it, but I’m honestly shocked at the amount of people who are told their pubic hair is “dirty”. Hair does not create dirt, dead skin cells and sweat make us dirty. Does having hair on your head mean you’re automatically filthy? FWIW, I wash the hair on my head every two or three days. I was my crotch a helluva lot more than that.]

97. first, anatomy: The vagina is INSIDE and is naturally hairless. The parts females shave are the vulva and pubic mound (or mons pubis if you like latin).

    the comments here remind me of the Great Blowjob Debate in the sense that just because one is female, and does something, does not mean there is no subtext. as usual, there are proximal causes and ultimate causes. assigning greater attractiveness to childlike features in the adult female is well established as a societal trend. many studies have established that child-like faces, with a small jaw and a large forehead, are found to be more attractive than adult faces. (Heather Graham has this type of face, as well as enormous boobs, for an example of someone who is clearly an adult yet still has childlike features). these studies generally take the form of asking a bunch of people to rate two pictures for attractiveness, and then examine the common features of more attractive vs less attractive pictures. one very interesting study took an iterative approach and somehow digitally merged the last more attractive picture with the next set of selections. the details escape me now; I read this a long time ago. after x iterations, the viewer had a picture which approached his or her attractiveness ideal, and inevitably, the final result resembled a teenager. I could look this up, but I am feeling lazy. maybe I’ll dig around over lunch.
    removal of body hair in females fits this pattern of preference for childlike features. removal of pubic hair is just the next iteration. of course, this is a societal trend, and the expression of this trend in the individual will vary. it comes as no surprise to me that individuals deny that their preference for shaved pubes has anything to do with pedophilia. I’m sure it doesn’t. but everyone’s preferences are in some way shaped by the culture in which they live. we live in a culture which does rate childlike features as attractive in adult women. the individual’s preferences should always be examined in the context of the greater culture.
    so, yeah, that was just a pedantic way of saying that shaving of pubic hair infantilizes women.
    other general notes:
    the hair on my legs is blond and not that dense. I shave sporadically. the comments I get are along the lines of “well, your hair doesn’t show, so it’s ok.” which makes my head spin. my hairiness is ok b/c you can’t tell I’m hairy. right on.
    and has anyone else noticed that men in movies and magazine ads all shave their chests these days? it weirds me out. I prefer less hairy to more hairy, but all the shaving is just too much.
    finally, in the dance culture which I inhabit, the dancers generally have bare midriffs. there was just a discussion on the message boards of waxing belly hair. ARGH! I might add, this is a very body-accepting sub-culture where fat chicks definately need apply, apparently as long as they wax their bellies. wtf?

98. b- You make some good points, and I’d be really interested to see the iterative approach study you mention. But when you say “the individual’s preferences should always be examined in the context of the greater culture,” I wonder if you’re considering that we’re not all living in precisely the same culture. A lot of these comments seem to be coming from queer perspectives, for example; are lesbian preferences presumed to be different from a heterosexual woman’s? That is, would I come up with the same composite picture as my straight roommate? I find it hard to believe that the nebulous “American culture” (I’m assuming you mean American culture) impacts all of us the same way, providing the same subtexts to our patterns of desire, despite differences in gender, race, sexuality, religion, how much television we watched as children, and so on.

    Also, I find it interesting that if pube removal among adult women is so widespread (as I mentioned in my previous comment, I haven’t really seen it; I’ve been with very few women who shave, and in other contexts where I was around naked women–ie, my boathouse locker room–I made a fierce effort not to look too closely) no one suggests that a preference for said hairlessness (as in a sexual desire, among men or women) might not have anything to do with pedophilia or infantilizing women, but rather with a genuine preference for a hairless adult woman. After all, if you come of age sexually in a time when a lot of women shave their pubes, it becomes a viable option for you to prefer, just like women with large breasts, short hair, blue eyes, or whatever.

99. I like to talk, but would like to submit that a lot of people are seeing images of the shaved porn star before they ever see a real woman. Also, to me, the shaving is even creepier as by age 10, I had a full bush. So I’m like !!!!

100. A million or so years ago my then girlfriend shaved off her fuzzies, as kind of a surprise “gift” for me. This was back in the early 70s, when this wasn’t a pop style as it is today. It was weird but OK – naturally I was flattered! – but she wasn’t interested in doing all that work every day, so she let it grow in again. Well, from about day three to day fourteen she was going absolutely nuts with itching. The only thing that helped the itch at all was repeated topical application of Johnson’s Baby Oil, which left me with vivid, delightful memories of those two weeks! Conversely, many years later I went with a woman who used not to shave anything anywhere; but eventually she felt social pressure (not from me) and started shaving her legs and underarms. I had liked it and was a little disappointed when she gave up the all-natural look, but really, I’m pretty much OK with however a woman wants to deal with body hair.

     Plus I will be damned if I ever give a lady asking me “I did such-and-such to my hair/clothes/personal appearance; do you like it?” the wrong answer, “No, I don’t like it!” The correct answer to that question, as all married men except Mr. Dhaliwal are aware, is always “It’s very nice, you look lovely!”

     As for me, no one has ever asked me to shave anything except my face, which I do only about four times a year. While I do hate to deny an adoring world the sheer delight of beholding my ruggedly handsome cheeks and jaw (yeah sure), I always get this very annoying rash around my neck whenever I shave my face more than about three days in a row. Given a choice between possibly irritating onlookers who are out there, and definitely irritating my neck which is directly connected by short, highly conductive nerve fibers to the Lobe of Bodily Discomfort up in my cerebellum, onlookers lose every time. As far as shaving my body, I wouldn’t be exactly mad or offended if some woman asked me to, but I wouldn’t do it either unless she was extraordinarily persuasive in her importunity, and even then I can’t imagine doing it twice! That’ll never happen anyway.

101. I keep seeing the hair removal options listed as “shave or wax.” There is another alternative which is those hair removal devices. Its not the Epilady – its the one that is kind of computer mouse-shaped w/tweezing disks.

     Its the only thing I’ve used on my underarms and bikini area for years. It works on legs but I prefer a razor for a closer shave – finer hairs get left behind. If you are a darker haired woman its really great for your underarms b/c its pulling the hair out at the root (much like waxing but much less mess!) and there’s no dark stubble/shadow.

     Regarding some previous comments – lack of hair doesn’t make a person cleaner, but hairs do trap and retain odors. If you are person who perspires a lot keeping sebaceous(?) gland areas hair free or trimmed really helps.

102. mk: we may not all be affected the same way by the culture in which we live, but we are all affected by it. individual expression of cultural norms is, well, individual.

     I tried to find the reference, but couldn’t. I found a site which mentions it and a bunch of other sites. here they are:

     Caroline Keating, Gender and the Physiognomy of Dominance and Attractiveness.

     Babyfaceness (with online experiment)

     Daniel Akst in Wilson Quarterly – look for description of work by Pettijohn and Tesser

     mentions the iterative study but doesn’t give a reference (warning, NSFW, but the entire site is highly worth reading)

     some references that I don’t feel like looking up:
     Rhodes, G. Hickford, C., Jeffrey, L. Sex-typicality and attractiveness: Are supermale and superfemale faces super-attractive?” British Journal of Psychology, 91, 125-140 (2000)
     Cunningham, M.R. “Measuring the physical in physical attractiveness: Quasi-experiments on the sociobiology of female facial beauty,” Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 50, 925-35 (1986)
     Johnson, V.S., Franklin, M. “Is Beauty in the Eye of the Beholder?” Ethology and Sociobiology 14 (1993): 183-199

     not necessarily relevant, but showed in the google search and disgusted me so I had to share

103. I read a thread a while ago on figleaf’s blog about how people often talk about “looking like a child” when it comes to shaving pubic hair, but you never hear that same sentiment when it comes to shaving any other part of the body – legs, armpits, face, etc. The fact of the matter is, adults have hair on all those parts, so why do we only jump to the pedophilia assumption when it’s pubes? Is it because, culturally (in the U.S. anyway) we are more accustomed to seeing people with shaved faces, legs, etc.? I don’t know, but I thought it was an interesting conversation.

     For me it’s all a matter of personal comfort. I don’t shave my legs very often because I don’t see much point in it – I wear pants most of the time, and also, I really don’t care much one way or the other about my leg hair. I had my armpit hair lasered off because it was very annoying to me (itchy/ticklish) and I would nick myself whenever I tried to shave. I keep my pubes trimmed neatly just bc if it gets too long, it starts to annoy me; but it’s pretty close to au natural.

104. I asked my man how he felt about pubic hair, and he said he thought completely shaved was weird, because a lot of porn stars are totally shaved, and they don’t seem like they’re really enjoying sex (i.e. they’re faking it). So, I asked, you don’t want a completely shaved woman because you don’t want her to fake it? Yup, that was it. Weird, huh?

105. For any guys on here who might be considering shaving their balls: DON’T use aftershave on there after you do. I learned that one the hard way.

106. I read somewhere that guys shave down there so they’ll look “bigger.”

     (rolls eyes)

107. I don’t shave my legs very often because I don’t see much point in it – I wear pants most of the time, and also, I really don’t care much one way or the other about my leg hair.

     I wear pants most of the time, too, but most of mine are pretty figure-hugging jeans and my legs get TERRIBLY itchy in them if I go too long without shaving. I did start shaving as a result of peer pressure (I’m dark haired and pretty hairy for a girl and in sixth grade some kids started calling me “werewolf”) but once I started I found it hard to stop. Besides I admit I do like the way my legs feel when they’re freshly shaven, all silky-smooth:) I shave armpits because I smell more if I don’t.

     I trim the pubic hair, but that’s another result of the itch-factor. I told my partner up front I’d never shave and he sort of shrugged and said he didn’t care one way or another. If I know I’ll be swimming soon I might give myself a makeshift bikini line. Also, I depilate my facial hair because I’m vain (but I never wear make-up). If a guy asked me to shave i’d feel really weird.

     Also, may I add that hairy men get a bad rap (maybe because of Hollywood? the only hairy man I can remember seeing in a movie is Austin Powers ^_~) Granted before my current partner I would have said I preferred unhairy, but now I really don’t have a preference.

108. Cassandra, the hairlessness of Hollywood men is fairly recent. Remember Burt Reynolds? For that matter, didn’t Harrison Ford have plenty a chest hair as Indiana Jones?

109. Ha-ha, if you remember that stupid movie Bird on a Wire, Mel Gibson had quite the hairy ass.

     Just a bit of trivia.

110. Damn you people, you made me think of Harrison Ford’s naked chest and Mel Gibson’s naked ass.

111. I don’t worry about the feminist ramifications of what I do with my pubic hair anymore than I do about cutting the hair on my head or plucking my eyebrows. I have very pale skin (under my clothes anyway) and dark, coarse hair, so I usually remove what I don’t find attractive, as well as any hair in places I enjoy having licked, and trim the rest. I get bumps, but a combination of exfoliating, moisturizing, changing razors frequently, and Bikini Zone deals with them for the most part, though I don’t get bumps anywhere important, it’s strictly a visual thing that bothers me. Occasionally, I’ve taken it all off for a guy (reason #237 why I’ll be up against the wall when the feminist revolution comes) just for fun, not because any of them harassed me about it. If they had, I wouldn’t have done it because I’m contrary like that.

     My current partner removes some of his pubic hair too, but that’s because he loves having his balls sucked on during oral sex (reason #168!) . Since I don’t enjoy gagging on his hair, I appreciate it, although it’s not my favorite look on a man.

112. Granted before my current partner I would have said I preferred unhairy, but now I really don’t have a preference.

     Interesting how a certain partner can change all your previously held ideas about your “type,” isn’t it? Before I met my boyfriend, I thought of my “type” as thin, kinda nerdy guys with not a lot of body hair. Most of the guys I’d dated or had sex with fit that mold. But my boyfriend is basically the complete opposite; I never thought I’d be attracted to a guy like that, but it just goes to show that if you’re in a long-term relationship with someone, their personality serves to make them infinitely more attractive than the physical stuff alone. Or at least, that;s how it works for me anyway!

113. And I should add that I DON’T think my boyfriend is not physically attracted. I realize my previous comment may have made it sound that way. But actually, I think he’s the embodiment of hotness, and it’s just interesting bc I never would’ve thought I’d be drooling over someone who wasn’t a skinny nerdy boy.

114. # Bertson Says:
     August 10th, 2006 at 12:51 pm

     For any guys on here who might be considering shaving their balls: DON’T use aftershave on there after you do. I learned that one the hard way.

     ROTFLMAO

     heh.

     If anyone starts trading the shaving-public-area horror stories I’m going to have to stop drinking coffee while I read, to protect my computer screen from splatters.

     Though I’d note that menthol shave cream can also be somewhat… problematic.

115. Dragging the thread sideways momentarily – I know Feministe has covered advice columnists and bad advice repeatedly, and I’d love to see what y’all have to say about Dan Savage’s latest column: No more helping married “straight” cocksuckers till gays can get married, he says.

116. I think that anything that forces Dan Savage into early retirment can’t be all bad.

     Seriously, though…He makes a good point about privilege. Then again, he freaking took the job of giving straight people advice for money, so the defensiveness is a little unwarranted, I think.

117. Savage. I have mixed thoughts on him. On one hand, I like to see frank discussion of sexuality. On the other, he often strikes me as having a really misgynist tone. He’s quite unsympathtic towards females who have sexual standards and want to enforce them. She dosen’t like pron? DTMF. Doesn’t like givin’ blow jobs? DTMF. And he seems more sympathetic towards the males that have complaints. I dunno. I really wish that he could come to the realization that you don’t have to do everything sexual under the sun in order to have a fantastic sex life.

     That column? The advise he gives? I think if it were a male, he’d tell him to do whatever he wants and if the partner doesn’t like it? DTMF. For the female, he counsils giving into the unjustifieable control of someone who, quite obviously, has control issues. And that’s dangerous.

118. Exactly. That’s a ludicrous demand, and in this case it speaks to a profound irreconciliability. I say DTMF, if he persists with his ban on toys, for the luvagod.

119. Cassandra, the hairlessness of Hollywood men is fairly recent. Remember Burt Reynolds?
     I’m 18, so… no. Heh. But point taken.

     And, Amber, I totally know what you mean; I used to head towards skinny and nerdy too, and God help them if they have facial hair! Now I like my boyfriend’s goatee, it amuses me.

     Dan Savage… on the one hand is sort of unashamedly an asshole, and a lot of times doesn’t really answer people’s questions, and definitely not exactly feminist… and on the other hand is really entertaining, and does print frank discussoins of sexuality, and I’m horribly horribly addicted to advice columns, so… I hate myself a little for it, but yeah I’ll read him. (The only advice column I cannot abide is, relevantly enough, Cary Freaking Tennis, like, just ANSWER THE GODDAMN QUESTION, CARY, NO ONE CARES ABOUT YOUR PHILOSOPHICAL MEANDERINGS). That said, I have seen Dan Savage tell a fair number of women to DTMFA to their men for various reasons, including wanting different levels of commitment out of a relationship, sexual selfishness on the part of the guy, and so on. Plus, he usually does tell men to indulge their women’s fantasies as well, at least in what I’ve noticed.

120. It seems to me that Savage’s general rule is that if your partner is demanding that you do something to/for him/her that he/she is unwilling to do to/for you, you should say no. Or, in some cases, DTMFA. (F’rinstance, he’s always pretty much held the line that reciprocated oral sex should be part of the package in a sexual relationship, unless you have scary history that makes it a trigger for you.) And piny, I don’t think he took the job explicity to give advice to straight people–he’s always explicity had a queer audience (and ‘clientele,’ if you will) along with a straight one.

     Anyway, yeah, he clearly doesn’t want to answer women’s questions a lot of the time, particularly lesbian women, because he’s all about dick and proud of it, and yeah, he does tend to be an asshole to certain groups (like bisexuals) more than others, but I for one am still a fan. (Though his column, in general, is way better written than his books that aren’t just compilations of the column.)

121. Damn you people, you made me think of Harrison Ford’s naked chest …

     That’s a problem?

122. Several years ago I went without shaving for a long time. I eventually went back to shaving my legs (too itchy with hair, but fine enough hair to not be itchy when it’s growing back in, go figure) but I really loved the look of having unshaved armpits.

     Maybe I’ll do that again.

123. I shaved once on a whim, the SO didn’t say anything about it, so I figured he didn’t care/hadn’t noticed. A year later we were having a conversation with my friend and her SO, who told us that sex with a shaved woman felt different. I told my SO and he replied that it does feel different, because I had done it once and he had noticed a difference. After that, I did it occasionally to provide a change of pace, but for the most part I just trim everything to prevent it getting too itchy/uncomfortable/out of control. Honestly, I started shaving more when I got pregnant, simply because I didn’t want my doctor to think I was a complete slob. I do shave my underarms, because the idea of hair there is completely uncomfortable to me, I hate having hair under my underarms. My legs I shave maybe three or four times a year, but I am extremely unhairy… I counted last time I shaved my legs and I had 15 hairs on the front of my lower leg and that was it, so you can’t really tell if I don’t shave and it’s not uncomfortable for me or the husband. If my husband asked me to shave, it wouldn’t bother me as long as he didn’t care if I said no and didn’t give me crap about maintaining it. I have tried growing my head hair out a couple times because he likes it better long and he has so far resisted his desire to go completely bald based on the fact I like him with hair on his head, so I feel pretty comfortable with our attitudes on the whoel grooming thing. I would be pissed if he started making demands or expecting me to keep it a certain way.

124. Polyamory makes this more complicated. I have two partners – one has expressed a preference for fur, the other has expressed a preference for shaved skin. Neither have pressured me, but there’s a certain amount of implicit positive reinforcement that goes on. (We *are* talking about sex, here. If I show up for a weekend together looking like my partner’s hottest fantasy of me, that can pay off even if neither of us says anything about it.) I end up shaving occasionally. Sometimes I just shave my pubic hair and leave my legs furry, which is awfully peculiar.

     I figure the polite thing is to avoid *repeated* requests that can sound like pressuring. I’d like one of my partners to grow a beard. I suggested it once, about 5 years ago, then dropped the subject entirely. It’s his face, his decision.

125. Coming into this late, but I’ve always found the feminist politics of body hair interesting. I shave my legs and underarms every other day, wax my arms, and get Brazilians monthly. I’ve never had a partner request that I remove my body hair, but I have had partners respond positively to its removal. I’ve heard lots of women say that they wax their pubic hair “for themselves,” and maybe that’s true — but I sure don’t. I would say that I shave my legs and underarms “for myself,” because I hate the feeling of hair rubbing against my pants and I really hate the feeling of stubbly or hairy underarms — and in the winter, when goosebumps on just-shaved legs are uncomfortable, I shave my legs maybe once a week.

     But the waxing I do for sexual pleasure, and because I have a fear that a sexual partner will be turned off by the au natural look (a ridiculous fear, sure, and I’ve had partners say flat-out that they don’t mind it at all. But during sex I’ll be focused on my body hair, which makes it obviously less enjoyable). Less pubic hair also makes oral sex better, on both ends. My long-term partner, knowing that I had been getting waxed for years, starting shaving his balls and trimming the rest of it. He eventually ended up waxing his chest for aesthetic reasons (chest hair doesn’t bother me, and he continued to wax it after we broke up, so I know that I had nothing to do with it) because he decided that personally, he didn’t like body hair. I don’t like body hair either, but absent porn and social pressures and whatnot, I’m pretty sure that I wouldn’t be getting monthly bikini waxes. I’ve been in Europe for 2 1/2 months, partner-free and without my wonderful waxer who I’ve been going to for years, and I haven’t touched my pubic hair the entire time (I absolutely refuse to shave it — ingrown hairs and itchy stubble are horrible). So it’s not the nicest looking thing when I’m wearing tiny bikini bottoms, but I’ve been kind of surprised at how little I actually care. And while I don’t get Brazilians specifically at the request of my partner, I think there’s an understanding that he prefers them.

     What I won’t argue is that waxing off your pubes is somehow feminist or empowering (haven’t seen that argued on this thread, but I’ve heard it before), or that most women do it simply out of their own personal desire, absent social expectations and what they think their partner wants. I’m not sure that waxing is anti-feminist, but I also don’t think that it’s a neutral act. And I certainly feel some feminist guilt for doing it, if only because I feel like I’m personally reinstating porn-influenced unreasonable expectations of what women’s bodies are supposed to look like, and ideas about how hard women are supposed to work in order to make their bodies desirable.

     But I do it anyway.

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