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Blacks in America: Victims of Too Much Respect and Deference

Apparently, white people are afraid to speak up and challenge black people. This is because anyone who second-guesses a black person is likely to be labelled a racist, says Dennis Prager. That, or we’re all afraid that the black guy will pistol-whip us and steal our wallets, while his girlfriend tricks us into impregnating her and then drains the economy for more welfare dollars to buy Cadillacs and diamond jewelry.

I was recently shown a videotape of people reacting to radio talk shows. Organized by a firm that specializes in analyzing radio talk shows, the members of the listening panel were carefully chosen to represent all major listening groups within American society.

But I quickly noticed something odd – I saw no blacks among the selected listeners. I asked why. And the response was stunning.

Blacks had always been included, I was told, but no more. Not because the firm was not interested in black listeners – on the contrary, blacks are an important part of the radio audience. They were not invited to give their opinion about various radio shows because in its previous experience, the company had discovered that almost no whites would publicly differ with the opinions of the blacks on the panel. Therefore, once a black listener spoke, whites stopped saying what they really thought, if what they thought differed from what a black had said.

So the totally non-racist and equitable solution, naturally, is just to stop inviting blacks. Because otherwise, white folks might not get their say.

But I still needed to test this thesis. Do most whites really not publicly say what they believe, if what they believe differs from what a black believes – even when the subject has absolutely nothing to do with race (i.e., reactions to a radio talk show discussing other subjects)?

So I posed this question to my radio audience, and, sure enough, whites from around the country called in to say that they are afraid to differ with blacks lest they be labeled racist.

I posed this question to the audience of my extremely conservative talk radio show, and whaddaya know — they’re afraid of black people! Clearly, this is the fault of liberals.

And on which issues are they afraid of being labeled “racist” on? Race issues, perhaps, that white people may not have quite as much personal experience with?

I could not imagine anything more detrimental toward abolishing racism and to enhancing black progress in America than such an attitude. But apparently it is the norm in American life to so fear being called a racist that individuals as well as institutions react to blacks as they would to children – humoring them rather than taking them seriously.

Now, I can think of a few things that are more detrimental to abolishing racism and enhancing black progress in America, but Dennis and I clearly have different worldviews.

This also explains why, if one differs with a black, one is not perceived as merely disagreeing with him, but as “dissing” him. That is what started the liberal hatred of former Harvard University President Lawrence Summers. After asking Harvard professor Cornel West to engage in more scholarship and less rap music making and politicking (West was a major figure in the Al Sharpton campaign for president), West announced that President Summers had shown him “disrespect.” Even a Harvard president doesn’t tell a black professor what to do.

See, I was under the impression that the feminists caused Larry Summers’ demise. But hey, if it’s convenient to blame the blacks this time around, let’s go for it. I wouldn’t want to “diss” Dennis’s ideas here.

Every time liberals force universities to lower standards for black applicants, and every time liberal activists force civil-service exams to be rewritten so that more blacks can pass those exams, another person learns not to treat blacks and their ideas as he would anyone else’s.

That is why most whites won’t differ publicly with most blacks. And that is why liberals and Democrats will have to answer to history for the harm they have done to at least two generations of black Americans.

And not, for example, the people who have crippled our education system so that wealthier whites have access to the best schools, whereas low-income people of color are often trapped in under-funded and under-performing districts. Not the people who continue to cut funding for social services like aid to families with dependent children, head start and early childhood education programs, and daycare for working families. No, it’s easier to blame black people and liberals.


34 thoughts on Blacks in America: Victims of Too Much Respect and Deference

  1. Guilt is a powerful drive in Western Civilization. As compared to other Civilizations like the near east where Islam controls through shame.

    Prauger is hardly the first commentator to note this pervasive phenomina in its relation to race in America.

    Shelby Steele has recently written an excellent book exploring this phenomina called:
    White Guilt : How Blacks and Whites Together Destroyed the Promise of the Civil Rights Era.

    Or ask a black person if they feel treated paternalistically often by whites (especially liberals)

  2. Why would conservatives be afraid of being labelled racist? Aren’t they the ones who are always lambasting liberals and progressives for our damned “political correctness”? And if they think there is such a dialogue problem, wouldn’t it be better solved by opening up new conversations rather than just shutting their mouths?
    This is just excuse-making. People aren’t generally called out for being racist unless the things they say are racist. It’s just like most white conservatives to shift the blame to liberals and blacks rather than accept any personal responsibility. Ironic, considering personal responsibility is one of the foundations of conservative ideology.

  3. Let me get this straight: Larry Summers questions Cornel West’s dedication to scholarship, Cornel West objects to the implied disrespect, and this guy says that’s why white people are afraid of black people?

    “Even a Harvard president doesn’t tell a black professor what to do,” he says. Does he have any idea who Cornel West is? His scholarship was highly-esteemed (at least in the Left) years before anyone ever heard of Larry Summers. Asswipe.

    White people need to learn to deal with our guilt and channel it into productive anti-racist work. More exclusion just excaberates the problem.

  4. “Does he have any idea who Cornel West is? His scholarship was highly-esteemed (at least in the Left) {only on the Left} years before anyone ever heard of Larry Summers. Asswipe.”

    Larry Summers was/is Treasury Secretary in the Clinton Administration, University Professor at Harvard, and Chief economist for the World Bank. he had the temerity to meet with Cornel Alphonse Fletcher, Jr., University Professor of Afro-American Studies at Harvard University. (He is also, incidentally, head of Al Sharpton’s presidential exploratory committee.) and suggest that he turn his hand to some serious scholarship-West’s most recent production was a rap CD called Sketches of My Culture-and lead the way in fighting the scandal of grade inflation at Harvard, where one of every two grades is an A or A-. What an outrage! West went to sulk in his tent, announcing on the way that he was applying for another year’s leave of absence (he had just returned from one) and letting it be known that he might just up and leave Harvard. As he did.
    West, of course, loves to mau-mau; and the confrontation with Summers was simply too good an opportunity to pass up.

  5. Prager says:

    This also explains why, if one differs with a black, one is not perceived as merely disagreeing with him, but as “dissing” him.

    It couldn’t be because the white person is mocking the black person’s background by saying “dissing” instead of “treating him disrespectfully.”

  6. I think the myth that black people play the supposed “race card” at the drop of a hat* has taken root.

    Basically, white people are always saying they were accused of racism, even though, after thoroughly examining their own actions, they determine they were not falsely attributing negative attributes or applying erroneous stereotypes to black people. So these stories spread — and grow in the telling, perhaps, as stories will — to the point that other white people become convinced that if you ever say or do something a black person doesn’t like, he or she (usually she, since we all know women of all races are manipulative and conniving) will call Al Sharpton to hold an angry press conference outside your home.

    So white people basically fear that anything they disagree with a black person on will be labeled a race issue. Admittedly, this is very nearly reinforced by the fact that white privilege blinds a lot of people to what issues do go back to race, at least when there are people of different races involved. The thing a couple of weeks ago about hair-touching is a good example. Even a lot of people who agreed it was inappropriate didn’t see it as being about race.

    *I mean, I’m sure some do, because some of everyone are assholes.

  7. Studying rap is serious scholarship, not releasing a CD.

    It’s very telling that Prager writes “a black” not, say, “a black person” or “an African-American.”

    Every time liberals force universities to lower standards for black applicants, and every time liberal activists force civil-service exams to be rewritten so that more blacks can pass those exams, another person learns not to treat blacks and their ideas as he would anyone else’s.

    If anything, they learn to undervalue the opinions of African-Americans.

  8. It seems to me that getting scholars involved in more arenas of popular culture is not necessarily a bad thing. I think it would help ameliorate the strain of anti-intellectualism in our culture.

  9. Studying rap is serious scholarship, not releasing a CD.

    I think it’s possible for a rap album to be a work of serious scholarship. I don’t know if West’s album qualifies, but I think it’s possible in theory. I’m a big fan of interdisciplinary approaches to scholarship and if done in a tasteful and intelligent manner, an album could function as a form of new media scholarship. It could certainly work from the perspective of ethnography or sociology. It may have to be accompanied with a bit more content (written, interactive, etc.) but it could be done!

    It’s very telling that Prager writes “a black” not, say, “a black person” or “an African-American.”

    No offense, but I’m not sure how telling this is particularly. This is an old debate that will never be settled. There are plenty of black people who refer to themselves as any number of things (specifically the above terms listed) and there are as many arguments for any particular terminology than there are against. Unless someone is calling a black person by an absurdly outdated term I wouldn’t read too much into the word choice. Prager’s little scare quoted “dissed,” on the other hand, is much more telling slip.

  10. Let me preface this by saying, I am not at all qualified to say ANYTHING. I personally am not afraid to voice my opinions around black people. I have never been called a racist by a black person, but I have been nicely “warned” by other whites that I may appear to be a racist.(?) THis leads me to think that other whites are probably afraid to differ with blacks, at least more afraid than I am, just like this guy postulates.

    Have you seen the story about the teacher who got run out of her job in NYC because she read her third grade class a race-positive difference-celebrating book by a Black Person called “Nappy Hair”? Here is the link.

    http://www.adversity.net/special/nappy_hair.htm

    This story DOES suggest that you may be pilloried for having racist beliefs when you CLEARLY do not, just because you are white and even approach the topic of race.

    It makes me want to vomit that we have made almost zero progress in this country regarding race conflict since 1975. I end up thinking that racism is SO entrenched that it can’t even be addressed or something. I suspect that half the people in this country (you know the half I mean) would probably lynch a black person if they thought they could get away with it. (At the same time, there ARE black REPUBLICANS !!!! Do they know they belong to the “Lynch Party”? Black republicans, Gay republicans….they might as well wear a T shirt that says “STOOGE”).

  11. I can honestly say the whole room balanced this issue without ever playing the “race card”. I’m starting to get a soft side for you progressives. Too many times I’ve heard this debate and it goes nowhere. You guys actually tried to understand the psychie on both sides. As a right-leaning independent I admire fairness.

  12. Larry did get in loads of trouble right when he got to Harvard with West. At that time, in the early 2000’s, the African American and African Studies Department (AAAS) was booming, thanks to West’s popularity. While Henry “Skip” Gates was the chair (and still is) West was, as I like to think about it, the poster boy, who was/is one of the most renowned African American scholars in the world. A lot more happened behind closed doors than just Summers asking West to focus less on pop culture and politics (and, side note: if Summers ever read some of West’s work, like Race Matters than he would have noticed that West’s work is a lot more comprehensive.) Anyway, West’s leaving cost the AAAS department greatly, and did not help Summers’ transition. To make matters worse, Summers got in trouble in 2004 with the new department’s “poster boy,” Lawrence Bobo, when he declined to grant tenure to Bobo’s wife who had been recommended by her department and was enormously qualified. Bobo packed up immediately, and was gone to Stanford by the end of the year. (Btw the Harvard president has ultimate authority on tenure decisions and the proceedings are never made public, so this denial was greeted with much skepticism.)

    Thus, there was a lot more to Summers resignation than just the West incident — his repeated denials of tenure to female and minority staff, his virtual destruction of the AAAS department, his not very thoughtful comments about women and science, and the TWO votes of no confidence from his college faculty. And, as a Harvard undergrad, I can happily say that we (meaning those that don’t fall into the legacy-millionaire-white-male category) are a lot prouder now that he’s gone (imagine my shame having to call Summers and Bush my presidents!)

  13. No, blacks in republican party is a good thing. So would a white man heading the NAACP. Anything that would make a step towards civility. Because race relations hasn’t went anywhere since 75. A black republican president would be the equivalent of Jackie Robinson breaking the color barrier. Except it would be in the political arena and that would be a major step in changing things. I have met Herman Cain in person and debated with him briefly. He will debate any of the “sensitive” issues and do so in a way that is civil. I found him to be an outstanding man that cares about issues instead of playing political games.

  14. Kathy McCarty,

    Might I remind you that we had a president from that “evil half” that you speak of. And did you know that he lost his life at Ford Theater for freeing the people he lynched. That is the most absurd thing I’ve ever heard Lincoln is rolling over in his grave.

  15. Yes, Brandcn, the Republican Party is just as it was in the days of Lincoln, as if suspended in amber.

  16. No, Bryan, they don’t. They do, however, belong to a party that cynically or no exploits racist beliefs in order to consolidate power. Does that mean all Republicans are racists? Of course not. Does that mean all Republicans support those members of their party who are racists in the extreme, ideologically, emotionally, financially? No. But they do contribute to and support an organization that benefits heavily from racism, that uses racism to its advantage, and, yes, offers support to and accepts support from racist organizations like the CCC and the NAAWP, which in turn are connected to the worst neo-Nazi and white-supremacist elements in the country.

    Would every Republican like that this is where their party support goes? No. Of course not, nor does that contradict that their party does many, many things, of which this element is only a part. But does that support go there anyway? Yes. Kathy was exaggerating to make a point, but she wasn’t completely off the mark.

  17. Kathy, the “Nappy Hair” brouhaha wasn’t a matter of a white person saying something innocuous to a black person who took offense, though. It was a case of a white person’s actions being misconstrued on the basis of misleading second-hand accounts. It’s also worth noting, I think, that the teacher in question was backed up by her school and urged to stay on. She chose reassignment to another district, and was granted it.

    It’s an ugly story, but I’m not sure it’s directly relevant to the question of how whites and blacks interact face-to-face.

  18. This story DOES suggest that you may be pilloried for having racist beliefs when you CLEARLY do not, just because you are white and even approach the topic of race.

    It can happen. The old “talking about race = racism” thing is probably the greatest barrier to progress on racial issue today. Well, when coupled with “looking racist to anybody is bad and will end your life as you know it” thing. I don’t think either one of those can be fairly attributed to liberals. There are a lot of liberals who believe them, but I think it’s more a function of good intentions and a tin ear for privilege, which is _not_ exclusive to liberals.

  19. Prager sounds like one of those good white folks who would help my “self-esteem” by doing away with affirmative action. Don’t do me any favors, Dennis.

    If anything, I would suggest that white Americans benefit from a complaint deficit on the part of African-Americans. In so many ways, blacks folks are not conscious of all the things of which they could be conscious, not angry about all the things they could be angry about. What I see in my world is black folks still going to work, still sending their kids to school, still obeying the police, and, above all, still enduring, entertaining, managing, buying from, trying to influence, and putting up with white people. Through everything, regardless of our experience. When I think about American racial history, I can only think about all of the riots that didn’t happen, all of the “incidents” that could have mushroomed into larger conflicts but did not. And no matter how angry we get, even with all our marching and protesting, we always, and I mean always, stop well short of a full-scale assault on the system. If that’s not giving white people, and America, the benefit of the doubt I don’t know what is.

    I realize that I’m more radical than most, but it seems remarkable, given my reading of history, that even after everything that’s gone down such a modest remedial measure as affirmative action is the closest we’ve been able to come to a true redistributive program, that it’s actually taken us this long to oh-so-tactfully broach the subject of reparations (and even that is bound to be a lot less radical in implementation than it seems prima facie). Nothing would have made more sense after the Civil War than the redistribution of land to the newly-freed slaves, and yet it didn’t happen. In the present, there’s all kinds of evidence of the most radical asymmetries of wealth, power, and opportunity between blacks and whites, but the only response we’re usually able to muster is to be occasionally grumbly about it. And regardless of the facts we put forth, the “race cards” we play, whites are able to persist in their heroic denial of racism’s reality and salience. Whatever it is that people like Prager think we’re doing to them, it doesn’t appear to be working very well.

  20. African-Americans seem very conscious to me. Last I heard, Bush has a two percent approval rating among African-Americans. Only ten percent of black people supported the war in Iraq in March 2003. It seems like black Americans are the least complacent and most aware group of people in this country.

  21. African-Americans seem very conscious to me. Last I heard, Bush has a two percent approval rating among African-Americans. Only ten percent of black people supported the war in Iraq in March 2003. It seems like black Americans are the least complacent and most aware group of people in this country.

    Heh. I read a blog post–not long after Katrina, IIRC–in which a commenter posted statistics that showed Bush’s approval rating among African-Americans to be well within the margin of error.

  22. In so many ways, blacks folks are not conscious of all the things of which they could be conscious, not angry about all the things they could be angry about. What I see in my world is black folks still going to work, still sending their kids to school, still obeying the police, and, above all, still enduring, entertaining, managing, buying from, trying to influence, and putting up with white people.

    Part of a very well written comment.

    As a white person, I can only observe and consider your experience and also draw on my experiences as a white person stuck on the lower end of an entrenched class system. And I see the same behavior on the part of poor whites, who believe with all earnesty, the lie they are told that if they just get better, get lucky and keep believing and supporting the powerful, their number will come up and all will be fine.

    Or, just keep going to church and praying and if all else fails at least Jesus will take you up and you can find that promised seat somewhere on his right hand, which must be awfully crowded by now.

    Compliance is absolutely essential for the status quo and those who have an interest in keeping the status quo will always discount and devalue anything that threatens it.

    I think groups that are on the receiving end of this discredit begin to finally internalize it and take it on the chin.

    Also, I have to say that I have been a dumb white person and stuck my foot in my mouth where I shouldn’t have, trying to ‘not offend’ and also have seen white folks stick to their stupid beliefs and insist that black folk play along. When they don’t, they are accused of ‘whining and playing the race card’.

    White people need to work with eachother to overcome their confusion and guilt and that I think is where the slide comes in; ‘this shit is painful and yucky, lets just blame the other folks for not understanding us (thus still retaining their dominant status) and leave it at that..’

  23. In so many ways, blacks folks are not conscious of all the things of which they could be conscious, not angry about all the things they could be angry about. What I see in my world is black folks still going to work, still sending their kids to school, still obeying the police, and, above all, still enduring, entertaining, managing, buying from, trying to influence, and putting up with white people.

    Yes. It’s simply shocking that black people still aspire in a society that facilitates social mobility and adamantly wants to extend it to black people on the lower social rungs.

    It’s amazing that people put up with other people being different. Blacks accomplish nothing by eschewing mainstream society and its values, except to harm and isolate their communities and get themselves locked up. This whole concept of looking upon mainstream culture as “white” and therefore “un-black” or dishonest for blacks to subscribe to is patently ridiculous.

    Even hip-hop presents conventional success as a point of pride and a worthy aspiration, through its celebration of wealth and conspicuous and flamboyant consumption of the hallmarks of traditional white luxury.

    What other norm can you subscribe to, other than some sort of resistance to perceived whiteness that leads you to self-destructive behaviors? Plenty of black scholars have argued that this very idea is a large factor contributing to the various problems that disproportiately affect blacks.

    Through everything, regardless of our experience. When I think about American racial history, I can only think about all of the riots that didn’t happen, all of the “incidents” that could have mushroomed into larger conflicts but did not. And no matter how angry we get, even with all our marching and protesting, we always, and I mean always, stop well short of a full-scale assault on the system. If that’s not giving white people, and America, the benefit of the doubt I don’t know what is.

    Black advocacy accomplished great strides in the 20th century. It influenced millions of white people to recognize that the second-class status forced upon blacks was an unbearable moral wrong that they could no-longer be complacent about. And many blacks have, like each of the disparate immigrant populations you lump under the banner of “white,” adopted and adapted to the norms and values of the society, have prospered within it.

    The civil rights movement was about letting blacks in; into schools by ending segregation, into neighborhoods by ending housing discrimination, and into the upper echelons of American society by using affirmative action to speed the progress of minorities into the bastions of white privilege. I’m not sure what your objection is to a society that is clearly committed to opening up opportunities to black people in education, in business and in government.

    As a white person who considers himself fairly liberal on this subject, I’ve always understood the notion of equality and civil rights to mean that black people should be able to have the same things white people have. Everybody should have a fair chance at a piece of the pie, and I think there’s been a lot of progress. To the extent that you reject this, I don’t know what else you could want that I could support you in wanting.

    I realize that I’m more radical than most, but it seems remarkable, given my reading of history, that even after everything that’s gone down such a modest remedial measure as affirmative action is the closest we’ve been able to come to a true redistributive program, that it’s actually taken us this long to oh-so-tactfully broach the subject of reparations (and even that is bound to be a lot less radical in implementation than it seems prima facie).

    So what you want isn’t a radical societal shift toward a more just distribution of resources and proportionate black representation in the halls of power. What you want is a check. And who pays for it? The descendants of Union soldiers who fought to free the slaves? The descendants of immigrants who came to this country after slavery ended? If you say they all benefited because America was built on the backs of slaves, well, step forward and take your piece of America.

    Nothing would have made more sense after the Civil War than the redistribution of land to the newly-freed slaves, and yet it didn’t happen.

    What do you want? Land in Oklahoma? The descendants of people who owned small farms in 1860 now live in manufactured housing. I don’t think anyone can seriously blame current problems on his great, great, great grandfather getting screwed out of 40 acres and a mule in 1865.

    In the present, there’s all kinds of evidence of the most radical asymmetries of wealth, power, and opportunity between blacks and whites, but the only response we’re usually able to muster is to be occasionally grumbly about it.

    Some blacks are well off, and some whites are poor. Blacks are still disproportionately poor, and remedial measures are in place. Lots of resources are being poured into creating opportunities. Lots of contracts are reserved for minority businesses. Lots of universities want minority students.

    The whole immigration issue stems from the fact that brown people from other countries see opportunity in America, and want to come here, and they don’t have the benefits of citizenship and often can’t even speak English! There’s no conspiracy holding black people back, everyone wants to fix this problem.

    White people have done some unforgivable things to black people in this country, but a lot of black social scholars now feel that black problems don’t arise entirely from white racism and have to be addressed in black communities.

  24. I could not imagine anything more detrimental toward abolishing racism and to enhancing black progress in America than such an attitude. But apparently it is the norm in American life to so fear being called a racist that individuals as well as institutions react to blacks as they would to children – humoring them rather than taking them seriously.

    No, the real issue is that this man can’t get his mind around, is that racism is so powerfully imbedded in our culture, that white people have no ability to see black people as just plain people.

    That he conveniently throws the responsibility for all this on the ‘liberals’ is unbelievable, but not surprising.

    As someone else here said, conservatives have made political hay for centuries by playing on, constructing policy by and supporting racism and its deep social divisions.

    That we even sit here and speak in about eachother in a construct invented solely for the exploitation of people by other people speaks volumes.

    On government applications and forms everywhere white and black are considered ethnic groups. We make distinctions about eachother based on skin color and then we act all shocked when we can’t even see anyone beyond that, that we first make that seperation and all else follows after.

    ‘white’ people constantly assume their social position based on skin color. Lower class whites are all up in a tizzy because the realize, however in a flawed way, that their issues of economic injustice are ignored. Unfortunately, because they have their color blinders on, they can only couch their oppression or progression based on their advancement up the social color line. They fail to understand that there are many peoples who share their frustration and that they are disempowering themselves and serving the powerful by seeing only race as an issue in their oppression.

    Also, ‘white’ folks constantly assume that all people are like them , that they make their value judgements and assignments of ideology and heirarchy first based on skin color. Racial slurs and comments are expected to be approved and shared by the all in the group. Even though some may not go so far as to scream ‘race traitor’, those who disagree still fear the retribution of ostracization should they speak against racist assumptions.

    Among the middle class ‘white’ folks, this gets even stickier as discussions of controversial topics are left unsaid in polite conversation. This serves to tacitly accept assumptions based on their skin color and the racism that their skin color and priviledge supports. To even bring up the issue can serve to make one a social pariah in no time flat.

    Then there’s those in positions of power who make their skin priviledge known, not only among people of color, but also among other like them. They make it clear that they demand compliance to their ideology and again, a lost job, promotion, inlaw discord, lost business could result if one speaks against the assumption of compliance.

    Civility, to not offend. That is the watch word of classism in America and the way in which ‘white’ folks maintain their precarious position in a carefully orchestrated and unjust system. Their compliance is required and even if ‘white’ folks don’t support the system as it is, they will none the less, be fearful to ‘make waves’ and do anything to venture outside the lines, for fear of being caught and brought down.

    There needs to come about among persons who are identified as ‘white’, a movement to deny this classification and begin to deconstruct by their actions and daily decision making, the very construct of racism they are forced to support and accept.

    And of course, to blame people of color for this problem is again, playing the ‘ole race card and as most usual the ones at the table dealing the cards are the ones who have the most to gain by keeping the game going — those in power.

  25. It’s amazing that people put up with other people being different. Blacks accomplish nothing by eschewing mainstream society and its values, except to harm and isolate their communities and get themselves locked up. This whole concept of looking upon mainstream culture as “white” and therefore “un-black” or dishonest for blacks to subscribe to is patently ridiculous.

    With a few caveats, I would agree, which is why I never suggested any such thing. For the record, I don’t think that black people should quit going to work, stop sending their kids to school, or quit obeying the police. I was simply trying to reframe the discussion about the supposed hypersensitivity of black folks, as postulated by Dennis Prager and others, by making the (wholly unoriginal) observation that, in just about every way that matters, black people are, and have been, loyal to the system. I said nothing at all about whether I saw this as a good thing or not.

    But since you are kind enough to coax me, I will say that, while it may be wrongheaded for African-Americans to completely eschew mainstream values (as if there were ever any real danger of that happening), there is enough in our history to suggest that a robust skepticism toward American society is in our best interest. What’s to be feared about that? Well, other than that it might make us less likely to swallow the American Success Story that appears to have crept into your thinking.

    Let me say as well that I don’t equate skepticism with pessimism, despair or resignation. Skepticism is simply skepticism. It’s keeping oneself at a critical remove from the society and its sustaining mythologies. I would encourage everyone to do this, not just African-Americans.

    The civil rights movement was about letting blacks in; into schools by ending segregation, into neighborhoods by ending housing discrimination, and into the upper echelons of American society by using affirmative action to speed the progress of minorities into the bastions of white privilege. I’m not sure what your objection is to a society that is clearly committed to opening up opportunities to black people in education, in business and in government.

    Well obviously, we disagree on just how “clearly committed” this wonderful society is to opening up opportunities to blacks. Of course, there’s every possibility that you and I have differing standards of what should be taken as evidence of “clear commitment,” owing to a more fundamental disagreement about the nature of American society. If you’d like to pit your evidence against mine, I’d be happy to do it via e-mail as I don’t wish to derail the thread here.

    As a white person who considers himself fairly liberal on this subject, I’ve always understood the notion of equality and civil rights to mean that black people should be able to have the same things white people have. Everybody should have a fair chance at a piece of the pie, and I think there’s been a lot of progress. To the extent that you reject this, I don’t know what else you could want that I could support you in wanting.

    Well, I could lay out a bunch of specific policy proposals, from putting real teeth into anti-discrimination enforcement, to defending and expanding affirmative action, to real investments in public education and job training, to ending the racist War on Drugs, etc. that I would hope that you, as a self-professed liberal, would be able to get behind. You can “support me” on whichever ones you feel comfortable, and I would be fine with that. But it’s disingenuous for you to pretend that you have no idea where a radical black guy like me is coming from. I’m unquestionably weird, but my thinking on civil rights is tethered to a tradition–I come from somewhere.

    So what you want isn’t a radical societal shift toward a more just distribution of resources and proportionate black representation in the halls of power. What you want is a check. And who pays for it? The descendants of Union soldiers who fought to free the slaves? The descendants of immigrants who came to this country after slavery ended? If you say they all benefited because America was built on the backs of slaves, well, step forward and take your piece of America.

    I didn’t put forth any specific reparations proposal, did I? With reparations, I’ve only gotten as far as wishing for a public conversation that establishes the base legitimacy of the concept. I leave the details of implementation to more supple intellects than mine. Once the legitimacy of the idea has been established, society is within its rights to accept or reject any specific proposal. We’re talking about something that would be the result of a deliberative process, however much some might try to construe it as a mugging.

    What do you want? Land in Oklahoma? The descendants of people who owned small farms in 1860 now live in manufactured housing. I don’t think anyone can seriously blame current problems on his great, great, great grandfather getting screwed out of 40 acres and a mule in 1865.

    Actually, it’s been suggested by some scholars that had the “40 acres and a mule” actually been granted it might have obviated the need for a Civil Rights Movement later. The unfeasibility of the idea in the present doesn’t mean that it made any less sense in the past, which is the only thing I was speaking to.

  26. Per original piece/post:

    Whoa.

    One doesn’t know what else to say, really.

    Well, this: so they call you a racist. So the fuck what? I mean:

    …well, it comes down to this, again, I guess:

    for too many people the equation is no more than:

    1) A racist is a Bad Person
    2) I am not a Bad Person
    3) Therefore, I cannot be racist.
    4) Lather, rinse, repeat.

    It’s not totally without reason, that: yeah, for a lot of people, expressing any sentiment that might smack of racism=you are a racist, categorically=you are a bad person, categorically.

    One more reason why shaming, or at least a certain *kind* of shaming, doesn’t really do very much. What you want is “reintigrating shaming” (tip to Bitch Lab for the term).

    On the other hand: it’s hard to have much empathy for people who can’t or won’t see that they’re hardly the only ones who get their feelings hurt, and that indeed there are worse injustices in this world than being shamed by a total stranger who has effectively no material power over you, individually or collectively.

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