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Fat Chance

Jill

Will we ever see an article about fat women and widening beauty standards that doesn’t feel the paternalistic need to mention all the health issues associated with obesity (because the fat girls might not know)?

I’d rather just focus on Mo’nique:

“I hope that when women walk away from the show … they sleep better at night and wake up feeling better about themselves,” Mo’Nique told the Post. “If the media never ever says, ‘We think fat people are beautiful,’ so what? We don’t need their approval. Now you be a fat man, a gay man, a black woman, a white woman — whomever you are — when you say goodnight, it’s like, ‘Oh! You know what, I’m OK.'”

…

She told the Post that she wished celebrities like recently booted “View” co-host Star Jones, who is rumored to have had weight-loss surgery, would return to the “F.A.T girl” fold. (FYI: Oprah, Queen Latifah, Camryn Manheim and Rosie O’Donnell are also deemed “F.A.T.” by Mo’Nique.) “What I say to those beautiful women is, come on back! Be healthy, but come on home! Don’t be afraid of that big juicy steak with that baked potato and sour cream, baby, on top of it! That is heaven!”

Sounds good to me. And now I want a steak…

54 thoughts on Fat Chance

  2. Yeah I love Mo’nique. She is one of the few that don’t come off cheesy to me when telling people that being fat isn’t the end of the world. She also presents herself as a sexual person, which media NEVER does (fat women are sexless humor objects).

    Although I do have a little bit of a grudge about that Phat Girlz movie. Didn’t see it, but from the trailer she definitely had that Hollywood “imaginary fat person” thing going on (tries to eat her facial mask because it has avocado in it, the usual jokes).

    But yeah, I’m really glad that article mentioned the DANGERS of fat acceptance. Cause I totally didn’t know. (eyeroll)

    I repeat: Health at every size, people. Health at every size.

  3. I watched the first Miss F.A.T. pageant last year, and it was really amazing to see some of the contestants move into a more self-accepting place. There was one woman who lived in Texas but wore sweaters all summer because she didn’t want to show her arms, and by the end of the pageant, she was wearing a sleeveless dress.

    Unfortunately, because one of the prizes was a modeling contract for Just My Size (I think), I knew that the large-but-not-too-large younger girl with longish hair was going to win, not the gorgeous quite large woman or the stunning bald woman. Damn, I wanted the bald woman to win. She rocked silk pajamas like no one I’ve ever seen.

  4. I didn’t see the movie either, and I know what you mean by the stereotypical fat person in movies or on tv who is constantly stuffing her/his face, but one thing that Mo’nique is saying is that people shouldn’t be afraid to eat, that people should enjoy eating. Personally, I love me some avocado, so if I had an avocado facial mask, I might want to eat it too. And after all, avocados aren’t pork rinds. They’re good for you! (Oh no…here come the calorie police.)

  5. What does “health at every size” mean? Aren’t some sizes by definition unhealthy? Like way to thin, and way too fat?

    Now, having respect for people at any size, that I can get behind. Just because someone does something unhealthy doesn’t mean I can’t respect them. Folks who drink too much caffeine put their heart at risk. But we don’t treat them with the disdain with which we treat fat people. So I realize there’s a double standard that needs changing, but I don’t think that means we need to promote the idea that fat is somehow just as healthy as normal weight.

    Or do I misunderstand the meaning of “health at every size?”

  6. Of course, out popped all the tut-tutters who can’t read anything about weight without a diatribe on how their “concerns” over health. They are like Calvinists when it comes to weight. Fat is something that is a punishable offense. You can practically hear them panting in excitement as they rant about cancer and diabetes, because it fits their view that the way of the transgressor is deservedly hard and painful.

    There was a great comeback to all that in the comments:

    It’s rather stunning the way people seem to wish pain, illness and death upon those of us whose bodies don’t “fit.” They want it to be true that our feet will rot off, tumors will sprout from every body part, and that we won’t be able to get from the bed to the bathroom without being hooked up to an oxygen tank. We shouldn’t be allowed to get away with being fat, they think, because after all, they had to starve and puke and pant and white-knuckle their way through every freaking day of their lives worried about what might jump into their mouths if they allowed themselves to look at it. They paid the price to fit in, to be considered “real women.” Who do we think we are, thinking we can skip all that?

    It would piss them off no end to think we could actually live long, happy, healthy lives exactly the way we are. Because — oops — that would mean they had wasted their own worrying about what others would think of them.

  7. Kevin, what I mean by “health at every size” is that you can strive for health at whatever size you are. That health is not just reserved for the thin.

    I have normal blood pressure and cholesterol. I have a low resting heart rate. I make healthy nutritional choices. I ran 3 miles this morning. I’m going to my cardio funk class tonight, and I weight train 4-5 times a week.

    I’m also “obese” at 218 pounds and 5’5″. I guess a lot of people would consider my size unhealthy, but I am a healthy, fat athlete.

    I’m just saying you can do it with the body you have, no matter what that body is.

  8. “It would piss them off no end to think we could actually live long, happy, healthy lives exactly the way we are. Because — oops — that would mean they had wasted their own worrying about what others would think of them.”

    It doesn’t piss all of us off. I was once classified by that lovely title “morbidly obese”. I lost a lot of weight, thinking that my world would be perfect if I did.

    It wasn’t. It took a while before I could call my world “good” and it had nothing to do with my weight loss.

    Don’t get me wrong, I was very unhealthy and since all that’s good now it was a good thing to have lost it. Some of it.

    My regret is that had I not be trying to fit someone else’s idea of what is acceptable, I might have enjoyed my early 20’s more. I feel cheated, in a way, that I wasted a lot of time feeling bad about myself, even mid loss when I was perfectly fine.

    That poster is 100% right.

  9. Amber, I do understand that there is a much wider range of weight in which it is possible to be healthy than would be suggested by fashion magazines.

    However, I, too was technically “overweight,” and nearly at the border of “obese” at 220 pounds, despite feeling like I was in good health. (BTW, I believe you when you say you are in good health – I’m not challenging that.) Blood tests for an unrelated issue turned up liver damage, for me, however. The culprit? Fat in my liver.

    The liver doctors I spoke to said that this was one of the biggest undiagnosed health issues in this country today. Many overweight folks are killing their livers, and have no symptoms, and won’t until the liver is already damaged.

    Granted, this won’t happen to everyone who is big – some people don’t seem to store much fat in their liver. But the doctors I talked to said obesity-related liver disease was going to threaten to overtake heart disease and cancer as big killers in the next two decades unless the average weight of Americans came down.

    My doctor said I had two choices: get down to my college weight (170), or face degenerative liver disease for the rest of my (shortened) life. I followed his advice, and now my liver is healthy.

    The point I want to make is that a rise in average obesity on this level has never been seen before in a human population (at least not that we know of)- this is a huge health experiment, and we don’t know the outcome. And health issues we didn’t forsee may arise.

  10. I see your point, Kevin. And I see the point of everyone who MUST mention obesity health risks on every single size-positive discussion EVER.

  11. Tylenol will kill your liver too (and it only takes a few pills to OD, or a slightly larger than normal dose over a period of time), but people don’t bring that up on every discussion about pain relievers.

  13. Responding to the #6 quote: I also think it has become de rigeur to obsessively point out obesity health risks because it allows thinner people to convince themselves that they are immune from those health risks– or at least that it’s Not Their Fault. I think in general people like the idea that they can equate scary possibilities with an identifiable characteristic or behavior. It’s a form of scapegoating.

    Amber, I’m with you on the “health at any size” tip.

  14. The no-judgment argument usually goes in the wrong direction. The usual argument is that you shouldn’t judge fat people because one out of a hundred might eat healthy, or you shouldn’t judge that obese person buying a dozen donuts because maybe he or she is buying it for the office. This argument is ass-backwards. No judgment should mean that fat people can eat what they want, healthy or unhealthy, without judgment.

  15. Erika, I was about to let you have it but I reread your comment. I’m really glad I did haha. I read the last sentence as “No fat people can eat what they want, healthy or unhealthy, without judgment.”

    That being said I completely agree.

  16. I agree with Amber’s comments regarding health at any size. A sedentary lifestyle is more dangerous than obesity, which is genetic in a lot of people. I’d like to point out, though, without offending anyone, that if we were all active and made healthy food choices, as a country, we would be much slimmer. It’s not fat acceptance that’s leading to the rise in national (and worldwide) obesity–it’s a sedentary lifestyle and poor nutrition. And THOSE are the real health risks–of which fat is often an indicator.

  17. Jenny’s got it. And yeah, you’re right about the being slimmer thing, when I became active and made healthy food choices, I lost 40 pounds (and still losing). But this is so true: the health risks that are automatically associated with being fat are the same health risks you see in a sedentary lifestyle of ANY size person.

  18. I am sorry but I don’t buy this “why does every discussion of fat have to mention the health risks” argument. The fact is, if those who trumpet the “size-positive” position really were secure in their position, why would they care when people bring up the health risks. “So what! I know it may be risky. But I’m proud of who I am and I don’t think it matters one bit if I’m overweight.”

    The fact is, the mere fact that the discussion of health risks is a tell that behind all the bluster, there are real insecurities. Indeed, it seems like many folks would like to be able to maintain a certain level of denial that they may be shortening their lives.

    Look, all the issues about body image and patriarchy and artificial standards of thinness are quite real. And so is discrimination against overweight and even normal weight people, and that is a very bad thing. But really, there is a health issue here, and whether or not the media talks about every other health issue or not, there’s a big difference between taking legitimate offense because someone says something insensitive about overweight people, and taking offense because someone mentions the connection between weight and physical health.

    During the early years of the HIV epidemic, some gay rights activists tired of hearing about how gays had to use condoms and close bathhouses and get HIV under control. But those sorts of statements, it seems to me, were in a very different category from people who were calling gays names or advocating discriminatory treatment. One could certainly disagree as to how serious an issue it was and whether those measures were necessary, just as one can disagree about how great the cost to one’s health is of maintaining a particular weight. But it’s just not the same to say “X is bad for your health” as it is to say that “I have the right to mistreat you because you are doing X”.

  19. I am sorry but I don’t buy this “why does every discussion of fat have to mention the health risks” argument. The fact is, if those who trumpet the “size-positive” position really were secure in their position, why would they care when people bring up the health risks. “So what! I know it may be risky. But I’m proud of who I am and I don’t think it matters one bit if I’m overweight.”

    The argument is actually that weight per se is not an indication or cause of poor health, not that people should be shielded from discussion of health risks in general.

    And this is just not true. Confidence does not require ignoring offensive derails. If someone chimed in to talk about the health risks of taking testosterone every single time I posted about transition, I’d start to suspect that person of an agenda, given their inability to either trust me as a patient-consumer or focus on the topic at hand.

  20. Oh look, Dilan’s back to put the fat chicks in their place again! Your concern for us just touches me in a really, really special place. I thought you should know that.

  21. The fact is, the mere fact that the discussion of health risks is a tell that behind all the bluster, there are real insecurities. Indeed, it seems like many folks would like to be able to maintain a certain level of denial that they may be shortening their lives.

    Um, so because most fat women probably have insecurities about their weight, you feel it’s necessary to reinforce those insecurities by pointing out the health risks every time they try to be positive about their size?

  22. there’s a big difference between taking legitimate offense because someone says something insensitive about overweight people, and taking offense because someone mentions the connection between weight and physical health.

    Is there though? How often are the people who “mention the connection between weight an physical health” actually doing it in a respectful (and knowledgeable) way. It seems like what you are really saying is: Fat people are just too damn sensitive. And, they need to be reminded hedonism will be punished (even if said reminders are scientifically inncorrect or medically dangerous.)

  23. I don’t want to put anyone “in their place”. What is happening here is that there are two different kinds of actions: (a) statements about the links between health and weight, and (b) insults, insensitive statements, and discriminatory acts against those who are overweight.

    The argument that is being made here is to say that (a) is exactly the same as (b), when it is perfectly clear that they are different. What I haven’t seen is one persuasive reason why people shouldn’t say things in category (a), other than that they may offend some people who are overweight. But all offense is equal– there’s a question about the legitimacy of taking offense.

    I do realize that some people may be taking pleasure in saying (a) because they really believe in (b). (Just as, in my HIV example, there were those who claimed to express concerns about gays becoming infected who were really motivated by homophobia and wanted to cast gays as typhoid Marys.) But that really doesn’t deligitimize the discourse. If people had a responsibility to refrain from saying anything that, while not itself an expression of prejudice, might also be said by someone who is prejudiced, we wouldn’t be left with much to say.

    And since someone characterized my argument as “fat people are too damned sensitive”, I might as well take this on. First, that comment overgeneralizes what I am saying. I have no idea (and neither does anyone else) what the majority of overweight people think about discussions in the public sphere about the links between obesity and health risks.

    But with respect to people who really do take offense at such discourse, yes, I do think that this is a certain form of oversensitivity, at least in the sense of objecting to the discussion of a subject-matter that is perfectly proper to discuss.

    And if you disagree, I would ask you this. Should we NEVER discuss the health risks of obesity? Only some of time? In what forum?

    For those of you who don’t remember the previous discussion that Amber is alluding to, it occurred when someone was complaining in a post or a comment that she didn’t like that her doctor brought up the issue of her weight during a medical consultation. In other words, even DOCTORS aren’t supposed to discuss a patient’s weight with the patient.

    Look, I think fat acceptance is a great thing. Indeed, I would favor anti-discrimination legislation to combat discrimination against people because of their weight. I also think, in the end, that a person has the right to maintain any shape he or she wishes to. And I think people who make insensitive comments about weight should suffer the same sorts of condemnation and shunning that people who make insensitive comments about race and gender and sexual orientation do (or at least do in enlightened communities).

    But there’s a big difference in life between knowing the risks of a particular type of activity and deciding to take the risks (e.g., motorcyclists who do not wear helmets and who are constantly made aware of the fact that they are taking a risk by doing this) and asking that nobody else mention the risks a person is taking because it causes offense to do so. Why, exactly, does it cause offense? The members of ABATE aren’t offended by discussions of Ben Roethlisberger’s or Gary Busey’s accidents. If it causes offense to discuss the risks, it must be because this is something other than a transaction where a person decides to voluntarily run a risk. Either there is denial about the nature and extent of the risk (or if there even is a risk), or the person– despite mouthing the rhetoric of “size-positiveness” and “fat acceptance”– actually does not believe the words he or she is saying. This almost seems like the textbook definition of “thou doth protest too much”– if the espoused position reflected the person’s actual thoughts, discussion of the relationship between health and obesity would simply be sluffed off with an “I already know that”.

    I come at this from the attitude that we all benefit from hearing things we don’t want to hear. Not slurs– which have no value because they don’t impart any information (except about the fact that the person who utters them is a jerk). But yes, actual information. The fact that someone is tired of always hearing about the link between obesity and health doesn’t diminish its value as information.

    One more point. Has it occurred to you that even if some people takes offense at this topic being brought up, that it might cause a different reaction in another person? I am thinking about the person who is overweight, isn’t proud of her weight and is trying to find the willpower to diet, and after the third or fourth time that she hears that she may be taking a few years off her life by maintaining her weight, decides that she has to go on a diet, take the weight off, and keep it off. Why is her reaction less important than yours? Or how about the poor immigrant who received very little information in his home country, where he consumed a diet full of fats and sugars and starches, then came to the US where he learned from our media that this could jeopardize his health? So he decides to change his diet and his lifestyle. Again, why is his reaction less important than yours?

    There is a certain group of people who are offended at the discussions of weight and health, to be sure. But that is not the only view of the matter. There are others who just don’t care about it. And there are others who do care about it and for whom this discussion might spur them to do something they would like to do but which is difficult to do. I don’t see what the case is for privileging the views of the first group over everyone else and refraining from discussing this topic.

  24. Another issue is the idea that somehow fat people have never heard that being fat will give them a huge range of maladies. I mean, it’s not like we have panicky articles about how we are so fat in every magazine and newspaper, or whole shows about how children are getting fat, omg, they’ll be so unhealthy on TV. Yea. fat folks, they’ve never heard of the idea that eatiing ten krispee kremes is bad for their health

    Also, why is it only fat people who need to know?

  25. For those of you who don’t remember the previous discussion that Amber is alluding to, it occurred when someone was complaining in a post or a comment that she didn’t like that her doctor brought up the issue of her weight during a medical consultation. In other words, even DOCTORS aren’t supposed to discuss a patient’s weight with the patient.

    Oy. I remember that discussion well, Dilan. And the thing is, the complaint was that the doctors defaulted to weight as an explanation without further investigation of the underlying cause, like they would with a thin person. And I also remember that you didn’t have much of a response other than, essentially, “fat people need to be reminded that they’re fat.”

    Sure, we can discuss the health risks of obesity. In an article about health. Which this wasn’t.

  26. My mom led a fairly sedentary lifestyle for many years, and only started really working on healthy eating and regular exercise when she was almost fifty. She’s still a size 16, in part because it seems a lot harder to drop weight once you’ve been through menopause, but according to her doctor she has the blood pressure of a 25-year-old. Possibly because she cycles just about everywhere, including to and from work.

  27. Dilan I have read your argument but I still think that it reeks of paternalism. This quote in particular gets me.

    Either there is denial about the nature and extent of the risk (or if there even is a risk), or the person– despite mouthing the rhetoric of “size-positiveness” and “fat acceptance”– actually does not believe the words he or she is saying. This almost seems like the textbook definition of “thou doth protest too much”– if the espoused position reflected the person’s actual thoughts, discussion of the relationship between health and obesity would simply be sluffed off with an “I already know that”.

    So a person (fat or not) who is into “fat-acceptance” and is annoyed by constant –fat talk– is either a) in denial and therefore mad about it or b) lying and therefore mad about it….?

  28. Alby:

    I think the paternalism argument goes both ways– are we not being paternalistic if we DON’T talk about the issue of weight and health because some people may be offended by the discussion?

    But on the merits of your point, the problem is what you characterize as “fat talk”. There is plenty of discourse out there about weight that I wouldn’t blame anyone, whatever their weight, from being annoyed with. I think the basic feminist critique about the pressure on people to stay rail-thin has plenty of merit.

    But that’s not what we are talking about here. We are talking about discussions about the relationship between weight and health. The mistake you and the others make is assuming there is no difference between this and the sorts of things that Naomi Wolf wrote about in “The Beauty Myth”. And the fact is, a person who accepts their own weight– and accepts the risk that he or she is taking– shouldn’t be offended at all at discussion of this relationship, any more than any risk-taker is offended by discussion of the risk that he or she is taking.

    As for what is going on in the head of the person who takes offense, I don’t think “lying” is the proper characterization of my argument. Rather, I think that for some people, fat acceptance may only be the top layer below which lurk attitudes that are more conflicted, including more ambivalence towards one’s weight. I am not a psychologist and I don’t know exactly how one should characterize this. But I do know that people who really are unambiguously “proud” of their taking a risk are not going to object to discussion– even widespread discussion– of that risk. There is a lot more ambiguity here– and if I am right about that ambiguity, that strikes me as a reason to bring these discussions out into the open, not to stifle the conversation.

  29. And if you disagree, I would ask you this. Should we NEVER discuss the health risks of obesity? Only some of time? In what forum?

    Dilan, I’ll be honest, I just barely skimmed your subsequent comments because it’s almost my bedtime and frankly you bore me to tears. I remember that other thread about doctors too, hence the instant boredom upon reading the same old shit from you on this thread. But I’ll just get to my point.

    Should we NEVER discuss the health risks of obesity? Um, no. The argument went like this: Why – even when a discussion or an article is about something positive like Mo’Nique simply trying to help herself and other fat women feel good about themselves – does someone ALWAYS have to bring up the dreaded health risks of obesity? Do you really not realize that we (and by “we” I mean anyone – fat or skinny – who ever reads a newspaper or a magazine or watches the news) are bombarded with these messages all the time? There’s a story in some news forum every freaking day about the “obesity epidemic.” If there’s ever a post about the health ramifications of obesity on this blog, then have at it (and I’ll be sure to skip that comment thread). Otherwise, just shut your piehole, because everyone’s heard it all before ad nauseum.

    Yeah, that was curt, but I’m cranky.

  31. Dilan is out to save us dumb, lazy fat folks.

    Thanks Dilan, I couldn’t never have understood it myself. I’ll have a pint of ice cream in your honor.

  32. Should we NEVER discuss the health risks of obesity? Um, no. The argument went like this: Why – even when a discussion or an article is about something positive like Mo’Nique simply trying to help herself and other fat women feel good about themselves – does someone ALWAYS have to bring up the dreaded health risks of obesity? Do you really not realize that we (and by “we” I mean anyone – fat or skinny – who ever reads a newspaper or a magazine or watches the news) are bombarded with these messages all the time? There’s a story in some news forum every freaking day about the “obesity epidemic.” If there’s ever a post about the health ramifications of obesity on this blog, then have at it (and I’ll be sure to skip that comment thread). Otherwise, just shut your piehole, because everyone’s heard it all before ad nauseum.

    Exactly. It’s like thinking that an atheist has never heard of Jesus.

  33. Again, you protest too much. Lots of things are overdiscussed– Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes’ baby, the alleged hostility of Democrats to religious people, astrology, Zidane’s head butt, and Katie Couric’s taking over the CBS Evening News, to name five things at random. But you don’t respond to any of those (I don’t think) by raising a huge stink and telling people to “shut your piehole”.

    The fact is that THIS subject– which may well be overdiscussed– causes more offense than it should. And whether you like it or not, the fact that people don’t ignore this one but instead take huge offense– when A FACTUAL RELATIONSHIP is discussed– is very telling.

    Further, I would not assume that everyone knows as much about this subject as you do. That is a very strange, rather classist, assumption to make in a country where so many people eat fast food (for instance) while having not the foggiest idea what it is contained in it. Certainly most college-educated Americans know the relationship between obesity and health (though I might add that I’ve seen a fair amount of denial about this from people who should know better), but that doesn’t mean that everyone else does. If they do know it, many of them very well could have learned it from the very media coverage you decry.

    I understand that this subject causes offense. But nobody has yet offered an explanation as to why a person who “feels positive” about his or her weight SHOULD be offended, even if the subject comes up over and over again. If you feel positive about your weight, that means that you know the risk (as you all assert you do) and have decided to take it.

    It’s not enough to say “well they mention it all the time”, because that doesn’t differentiate this from anything else the media mentions all the time. What’s the specific offensiveness here?

    Finally, since everyone seems to think I am being paternalistic, let me be clear here. On both feminist and libertarian grounds, I don’t think it’s any of my business to tell anyone that they should lose weight. (I do think that it is a doctor’s business, if he or she thinks there is a serious health threat, but that’s a different issue.) In an earlier comment, I made it clear that I have no tolerance for those who trash people because of their weight, and think that discrimination against the overweight should be illegal.

    Therefore, the fact that you are assuming that I am butting in and telling you how to live your lives is another tell about the ambivalence beneath some pleas of “size positivity”. Go back and read what I said in these comments– I said NOTHING about anyone needing to lose weight, and in fact I said NOTHING about anyone’s weight at all. So the concept that I am “out to save all us lazy, fat foks” has absolutely nothing to do with what I actually said. It must therefore be a background assumption that some people are making whenever anyone talks about weight in a way that they don’t agree with.

    Break down your argument logically. Why should the words “obesity causes a health risk”, even if overrepeated, be perceived as the same thing as using a slur against those who are overweight? Why does this particular repetitious media theme, rather than any others, bug you so much? And why is it that anyone who questions whether this is, in fact, a big plot to stigmatize overweight people is suddenly assumed to be a paternalistic busybody who wants to tell you what you should look like and what you should way? There’s a ton of projection here.

    At bottom, I really think weight is a matter of individual choice, that it’s possible to be big and beautiful (as it is possible to be thin and beautiful), and that we would benefit from more role models like Mo’Nique who represent a greater diversity of shapes and sizes. And don’t get me started on the fashion industry and how many designers treat plus size customers as second-class citizens. And I think that there are a lot of things we should do to deal with the body image problems and unrealistic expectations about weight that are foisted on many young women (and, to a lesser extent, men). This is who you are arguing with– not some lout who wants to tell you what you must look like.

    Where I get off the bus is when you start treating a FACT that makes some people uncomfortable (i.e., the relationship between obesity and health) as if it is no different than a slur against the overweight, i.e., that it is something that needs to be rubbed out of the discourse (or at least not talked about so much). Facts that may cause offense to some people are simply in a different category than content-less slurs, commercial appeals to sell a certain body image, or outright discriminatory acts. But you will notice that my argument depends on two things– that this is a fact, and that I don’t think that anyone should be legitimately offended by hearing the fact– neither of which is based on any paternalism or any condemnation of anyone’s choice as to what they want to look like.

  34. Dilan-

    I’m not so much offended as annoyed. I write a post specifically about embracing your body and enjoying food, and comment that it’s really irritating that every time someone writes about fat women being happy, someone has to jump in and bring up the health issue. And then what happens? You jump in and bring up the health issue.

    It’s paternalistic to assume that you’re doing everyone a favor by bringing up the health facts about obesity and weight. I’ll say it again: WE KNOW. And I was attempting to start a conversation, for once, about body image and weight without the health issue coming in. We’ve had that conversation dozens of times before.

    So ok, we get it, there’s a relationship between weight and health, you win. Now, for the love of God, please, before I scatch my own eyes out, let’s move on and talk about something interesting that hasn’t been repeated ad nauseam.

  35. nobody has yet offered an explanation as to why a person who “feels positive” about his or her weight SHOULD be offended, even if the subject comes up over and over again. If you feel positive about your weight, that means that you know the risk (as you all assert you do) and have decided to take it.

    Quit telling everyone what should or shouldn’t offend them. Quit telling fat people they’re oversensitive, and SINCE the subject comes up over and over again, and SINCE we all assert that we KNOW about the risks, then STOP FUCKING BRINGING IT UP, especially in posts that have nothing to do with health issues.

    God, can we move on already?

  36. But you don’t respond to any of those (I don’t think) by raising a huge stink and telling people to “shut your piehole”.

    I apologize. “Shut your salad hole” probably would have been less offensive to you.

    I think the problem here is that at bottom, you just don’t actually believe that it’s possible for a fat person to be healthy. Fat does not necessarily mean unhealthy, just as skinny does not necessarily mean healthy. You can’t tell just by looking at a person how healthy or unhealthy they are, yet fat people have this visible marker that makes everyone assume that they are unhealthy and that they need to be informed of the risks associated with that. Fat people don’t need to be told how unhealthy they are, because they’re not all unhealthy.

  37. The idea of “fat” in many cases, is subjective. In the hoopla over the Dove ads last year, male columnists shrieked that the models were “chunky” and enabling the obesity epidemic, although it turned out a lot of them were size 8-10 (thinner than the average size 14 woman) and likely medically fit and healthy. I’m 5″4 and 115 lbs, which is kind of normal, but if I was a ballerina or a gymnast I would be considered obese. Conversely, other people would probably accuse me of being too thin.
    It’s been frequently remarked upon that as Americans get heavier, the beauty ideal gets thinner and thinner, so there’s a much bigger gap between the ideal and the real. Which is why I think the point here, about Mo’nique, is to make (often perfectly healthy) women who don’t fit the narrow Hollywood demand of a size 0 Nicole Richie body feel ok about themselves. And there’s a huge difference between being over a size 0 and being overweight enough to have health problems.

  38. I agree about the ideal- I’m at my smallest healthy weight (102, don’t try this if you’re not 4 feet 11) but I still don’t fit the ideal because I have large hips and thighs. When I click on the TV, there are diet ads, where the before girl in the bikini looks like me, and the after girl is even skinnier. And don’t tell me about Kiera Knightly.

    And you know what? a lot of the fat folks aren’t going to lose enough weight to be skinny. I know a guy who lost twenty pounds, which they say is a good loss to improve your health, but he’s still like 300. Even if he was on an intense diet and exercise plan, it could take years or never(probably never) until he is thin enough to be ‘acceptable’. Should he put his life on hold for years because he’s fat?

    And that’s all the fat positive people are saying. Sometimes you just need to live your life without worrying about what someone else thinks of your azz, you know?

  39. Again, you protest too much. Lots of things are overdiscussed– Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes’ baby, the alleged hostility of Democrats to religious people, astrology, Zidane’s head butt, and Katie Couric’s taking over the CBS Evening News, to name five things at random. But you don’t respond to any of those (I don’t think) by raising a huge stink and telling people to “shut your piehole”.

    The fact is that THIS subject– which may well be overdiscussed– causes more offense than it should. And whether you like it or not, the fact that people don’t ignore this one but instead take huge offense– when A FACTUAL RELATIONSHIP is discussed– is very telling.

    If I were a Democratic blogger, I would indeed get shirty if someone responded to every post about the Democratic party with a tangent about Democratic hostility to religion. Somehow, we manage to have long discussions about the Democratic party without those trainwrecks. Could it be because our readership understands that there are other issues important to Democratic voters and fellow travellers?

    You didn’t respond to my analogy about transition and testosterone risks, either.

    Or take this one: say that I were here as a plain ol’ gay man, posting pretty exclusively about gay issues. Gay comedians, gay nursing homes, gay marriage, gay television shows, gay hate crimes, gay bars, gay people in the media, gay candidates for political office, gay republicans, you name it. And every time I mentioned gay men, even when I wasn’t talking about gay health or sexual practices, someone brought up AIDS, seroconversion risks, and unsafe sex in the gay community.

    Now, if I started to get a little annoyed, would that be unreasonable? If I started to suspect that person of having an agenda, would that be unreasonable? If I complained, would that be an indication that I was insecure in my sexuality or irresponsible in my sexual practices? No. Because it’s homophobic and extremely annoying to divert every discussion of gay life–which is a pretty big category–into one side issue. It is fatphobic and extremely annoying to divert every discussion of fat people into health risks which are neither the defining circumstance of their lives nor remotely underdiscussed.

  40. Oh my gosh thank you piny. You said everything I wanted to say but couldn’t make my brain formulate because it was too filled up with cusswords.

    Oh and cheeseburgers and greasy fries. (eyeroll)

  41. Not just that, but fat people discuss health risks and health issues all the time. In the year plus that I’ve been reading Alas, Amp has posted something like a dozen articles about health risks and obesity. Mind, he rejects the idea that obesity is a health risk, but they’re elaborate posts on available scientific and public-health data. Chris Clarke wrote a long and much-discussed-by-fat-people post about obesity and health just a couple of months ago. Fat people do not ignore the issue. They resent it when it’s brought up out of context.

  42. I agree that we’ve pounded this topic into the ground. But 2 quick responses:

    1. I do think it is possible to bring this issue up for the sole purpose of demonizing overweight people, and that would be quite wrong. That would be the analogy to the situations piny is talking about re: transgender issues and issues involving gays. The problem is, I don’t think that’s what happening here. I think the media brings this up because it is quite relevant to the issue of size-positiveness. Indeed, it is the explicit trade-off that many people are concerned about, i.e., will changing our approach to body image have the side effect of harming some people’s health? I would make the trade-off anyway, because I think that the current system puts lots of people through hell as they try to maintain an artificial standard of thinness. But the issue is a real issue, not simply a contrived way of stigmatizing overweight individuals.

    2. Piny’s last comment, though, indicates that at least some people are trying to have it both ways. If everyone knows about the health risks of obesity, then why is a size-positive blogger posting numerous posts arguing that there is no relationship between obesity and health? Arguing that this proves that there is discussion about the issue among those who are overweight is akin to arguing that of course the religious right respects gays and lesbians because they talk about them all the time!

    Similarly, some comments here question the link that people are saying “everyone knows about”. One can be overweight and healthy, these comments say. That is true, but it doesn’t mean there isn’t a correlation between weight and health risk, any more than the fact that George Burns lived to 100 indicates that smoking a cigar every day is healthy.

    At bottom, if the point is that obese people already know about the health risk (something, I might add, that may apply to college educated commenters in this thread but may not apply to lower-class individuals with less education) and therefore don’t need to hear it again, then that argument is undermined by pointing to people who deny the existence of the health risk.

  43. 1. I do think it is possible to bring this issue up for the sole purpose of demonizing overweight people, and that would be quite wrong. That would be the analogy to the situations piny is talking about re: transgender issues and issues involving gays. The problem is, I don’t think that’s what happening here. I think the media brings this up because it is quite relevant to the issue of size-positiveness. Indeed, it is the explicit trade-off that many people are concerned about, i.e., will changing our approach to body image have the side effect of harming some people’s health? I would make the trade-off anyway, because I think that the current system puts lots of people through hell as they try to maintain an artificial standard of thinness. But the issue is a real issue, not simply a contrived way of stigmatizing overweight individuals.

    How would my examples not be similarly pertinent, then? Greater acceptance of homosexuality arguably does lead to more gay sex, doesn’t it? Greater acceptance of transsexuality increases the prevalence of transition. Why is it not therefore important to bring up the dangers of unsafe gay sex and the statistical incidence of HIV in the gay community every time someone discusses gay men? It’s important that gay men be aware of them. And it’s possible that they haven’t already received all the information.

    2. Piny’s last comment, though, indicates that at least some people are trying to have it both ways. If everyone knows about the health risks of obesity, then why is a size-positive blogger posting numerous posts arguing that there is no relationship between obesity and health? Arguing that this proves that there is discussion about the issue among those who are overweight is akin to arguing that of course the religious right respects gays and lesbians because they talk about them all the time!

    …Because he does not believe that weight and health are related, for reasons he lays out in a clear, cite-heavy format. Maybe you should go check out his posts; they seem to be more constructive than your comments. He also allowed debate in comments about the connection between weight and health, so there goes the religious-right strawman. Are you arguing that fat people must admit that overweight is unhealthy per se before they’re allowed to complain about it being brought up constantly in unrelated comments threads? There’s significant debate about whether or not it is; most studies point to other factors, and your public health argument applies to them.

    Similarly, some comments here question the link that people are saying “everyone knows about”. One can be overweight and healthy, these comments say. That is true, but it doesn’t mean there isn’t a correlation between weight and health risk, any more than the fact that George Burns lived to 100 indicates that smoking a cigar every day is healthy.

    Oh, God. Yes, definitely go read his posts. People are not, repeat, not arguing that a less-than-one-hundred-percent correlation between obesity and morbidity is proof that obesity is not unhealthy. That would indeed be really fucking stupid. They are arguing that there is no correlation between weight and health that is not superceded by the far more reliable, sensible correlation between activity and diet and health.

  44. “How would my examples not be similarly pertinent, then? Greater acceptance of homosexuality arguably does lead to more gay sex, doesn’t it? Greater acceptance of transsexuality increases the prevalence of transition. Why is it not therefore important to bring up the dangers of unsafe gay sex and the statistical incidence of HIV in the gay community every time someone discusses gay men? It’s important that gay men be aware of them. And it’s possible that they haven’t already received all the information.”

    Actually, it’s not the same. There is nothing per se about homosexual as opposed to heterosexual activity that leads to HIV. Gays (but not lesbians) do have anal sex, which is somewhat more risky than vaginal intercourse, but so do heterosexual couples. And gays and lesbians also have oral sex, which is somewhat less risky than vaginal intercourse. Thus, anyone who believes that gay sex = HIV transmission, at this point, is a homophobe. That is not true about the connection between obesity and health.

    Note as well that 20 years ago, when the AIDS crisis first hit, many media discussions of what we now call GLBT issues DID feature prominent discussions of HIV, because at that time, gay males were one of the populations most at risk (along with hemophiliacs). What changed is that this is no longer true. HIV is now a heterosexual epidemic as much as it is a “gay plague”.

    “Oh, God. Yes, definitely go read his posts. People are not, repeat, not arguing that a less-than-one-hundred-percent correlation between obesity and morbidity is proof that obesity is not unhealthy. That would indeed be really [bleeping] stupid. They are arguing that there is no correlation between weight and health that is not superceded by the far more reliable, sensible correlation between activity and diet and health.”

    You miss the point. It’s fine to argue this (though I think that there’s a bit of slight-of-hand going on here). But if you argue this, you can’t also argue that it is such a terrible thing to discuss the issue in the media because every obese person knows it. Obviously, some people don’t know it– they deny it!

    Since you brought it up, I certainly take the point that activity and diet, rather than weight, are probably responsible for most, if not all, of the correlation between weight and health. But so what? Is there any serious claim that most of the persons of size in our community are overweight or obese solely because of factors that have nothing to do with activity and diet? Is there any serious claim that the effect of a more “size positive” society (something I should repeat that I support) would be that those persons of size whose weight DOES correlate with a risk to their health will be among those who benefit?

    I don’t see how denying that it is actually weight rather than activity and diet that causes the correlation is the argument-stopper you think it is. Indeed, I think that if the discourse shifted to discussions of activity and diet in the context of discussions of size-positiveness, rather than the relationship between weight and obesity in that same context, many people would raise the same objection to that discourse. Indeed, they might raise an even more vehement objection, on the grounds that people are assuming that if they are overweight, in fact, they don’t eat well or don’t exercise enough.

  45. Re: Health and Obesity

    I have many friends in the medical field as doctors and surgeons, and yes, there is definite medical risks associated with being overweight. However, a lot of people have an incredible skewed idea of what “overweight” is because of the media. What is being touted as “healthy” or “acceptable” weight is indeed unhealthy for most people to achieve. My friend, who is a general practioner, will preach to everyone about a healthy diet, not smoking, wearing sunscreen, eating more veggies, being active, etc. If she sees, as a doctor, that a woman is heavy-set, doesn’t smoke, has a great diet, great blood pressure, and has an active lifestyle, then she’ll do what people are supposed to do-encourage her to keep active and keep a healthy lifestyle- nothing more, and not a word about her weight unless it is causing her health (often orthopedic) problems that could be alleviated by weight loss. However, she will do a blood panel because a lot of people suffer from hypothyroidism and other health issues that makes them heavier than their normal weight, and she will suggest exercises that will be easier on their joints and to see a physical therpist to prevent worsening of the situation. She feels that even doctors tend to give thinner people a pass for less-than-optimal lifestyles because they are thin- while berating or not acknowledging healthy lifestyles in heavier people. It’s really unfortunate because it ends up affecting the quality of medical care for everyone. nothing wrong with telling people with unhealthy lifestyles- regardless of their weight- that it’s a good idea to take care fo themselves IF YOU CARE ABOUT THEM AND KNOW THEM, or if you’re a medical professional in charge of their health. On the other hand, it’s rude for a complete stranger to assume and deride people based on weight alone, which is what people do. The accepted standard of beauty- which has a definite component in the socially accepted, visual representation of health- is unhealthily thin, and weight is not always an indicator of a person’s psychological, emotional or physical condition.

  46. Actually, it’s not the same. There is nothing per se about homosexual as opposed to heterosexual activity that leads to HIV. Gays (but not lesbians) do have anal sex, which is somewhat more risky than vaginal intercourse, but so do heterosexual couples. And gays and lesbians also have oral sex, which is somewhat less risky than vaginal intercourse. Thus, anyone who believes that gay sex = HIV transmission, at this point, is a homophobe. That is not true about the connection between obesity and health.

    You argue against this kind of reasoning here; apply it to your arguments about obesity and health, and maybe you’ll see why it doesn’t make sense to connect them.

    You miss the point. It’s fine to argue this (though I think that there’s a bit of slight-of-hand going on here). But if you argue this, you can’t also argue that it is such a terrible thing to discuss the issue in the media because every obese person knows it. Obviously, some people don’t know it– they deny it!

    You’re arguing that obese people don’t discuss it. That’s not true. They discuss it all the time. You’re also arguing that they disagree with you about the correlation between obesity per se and health. That’s true, with a great deal of good evidence, but that’s not a good reason to insist that fat people are ignorant or that they need you to bring the subject up for them.

    Since you brought it up, I certainly take the point that activity and diet, rather than weight, are probably responsible for most, if not all, of the correlation between weight and health. But so what? Is there any serious claim that most of the persons of size in our community are overweight or obese solely because of factors that have nothing to do with activity and diet? Is there any serious claim that the effect of a more “size positive” society (something I should repeat that I support) would be that those persons of size whose weight DOES correlate with a risk to their health will be among those who benefit?

    You’re changing arguments. First you argued that obesity is a health risk. Now you’re arguing that obesity correlates with unhealthy behaviors that are health risks. See the difference? Thin people also eat poorly and get too little exercise. Most Americans eat poorly and get too little exercise.

    I don’t see how denying that it is actually weight rather than activity and diet that causes the correlation is the argument-stopper you think it is. Indeed, I think that if the discourse shifted to discussions of activity and diet in the context of discussions of size-positiveness, rather than the relationship between weight and obesity in that same context, many people would raise the same objection to that discourse. Indeed, they might raise an even more vehement objection, on the grounds that people are assuming that if they are overweight, in fact, they don’t eat well or don’t exercise enough.

    Assuming that they are unfairly targeted for public-health announcements that most of the people in this country need to hear, they would have every right to object–just as gay men would have the right to object if they were unfairly targeted for safe-sex information that applies to everyone. This is particularly true if you have no reason to believe that the fat people you’re talking to are unhealthy or believe that they should not have healthy diets and exercise routines.

  47. Forgot to add: What many people consider “overweight” can very possible be healthy weight for the individual. People talk about “thinness” being a natural state of the human body- not true. you look at pictures of Brughel, you do see women with healthy weight, not sticks walking around- and that’s when food issues were still a problem.

    The one thing I will say- on a off tangent- is the link of poverty and obesity, and the resultant obesity often resulting- not from laziness, but from people unable to afford / have the tools (time, ability, energy, etc) to maintain a healthy diet. I’ve worked with impoverished women, and I am often infuriated by comments like, “how come she’s so fat if she can’t afford food?” In this day and age, ample weight does not equal copious consumption, and the lack of compassion for people in dire straits that are overweight are infuriating and disgusting.

  48. The problem is, the analogy to gays isn’t borne out by the facts. In the 1980’s, when gay sex really did correlate with HIV/AIDS– through an intermediate step of the particular epidemiological aspects of the disease and the particular sexual practices of the late 1970’s and early 1980’s that meant that it first struck hard in the gay community– media discussions of AIDS, even by non-homophobic reporters, contained repeated references to these issues.

    Now that this is no longer true, media discussions of AIDS no longer bring up gay sex all the time. Because as you say, at this point the safe sex message applies with equal or similar force to everyone.

    But does the message about the relationship between obesity, or diet and activity, and health, really apply with equal or similar force to everyone in the same way that safe sex does now? Or is it more analogous to the early days of AIDS, when the message applied with special force to certain populations?

  49. I meant to say food supplies, not food issues.

    Also, i should have said heavy set compared to the accepted social standard, because that’s what it’s about- not a state of health but actually conforming to a social (unhealthy) standard.

  50. …a more “size positive” society (something I should repeat that I support)…

    Pfffft. Some support.

    You are so utterly annoying I’m not sure why I’m responding. (Piny, I’m glad you’re doing it.) How can a size positive environment ever be created when there’s always someone like you butting in with your faux health concerns?

  51. raging:

    I am not butting in. I am simply defending the media discussing this issue.

    The way you create a size positive environment isn’t to stifle discussion about health issues. It’s to deal with body image, anorexia and bulemia, marketing of an impossible ideal of thinness, and promotion of more role models of all shapes and sizes, among other things.

    The problem isn’t with me– it’s that some people can’t tell the difference between discussing the issue of obesity and health and dictating to people what they must weigh or slurring overweight people.

  52. The problem isn’t with me– it’s that some people can’t tell the difference between discussing the issue of obesity and health and dictating to people what they must weigh or slurring overweight people.

    No, that’s not the problem. You said we should “[promote] more role models of all shapes and sizes.” What the hell do you think Mo’Nique is trying to do? She is not advocating an unhealthy lifestyle…

    Mo’Nique, who had just returned from the gym before the interview, seems to advocate a healthy lifestyle — and a healthy relationship to food. […] “What I say to those beautiful women is, come on back! Be healthy, but come on home! Don’t be afraid of that big juicy steak with that baked potato and sour cream, baby, on top of it! That is heaven!” Sounds downright revolutionary, doesn’t it?

    …yet, the author still felt the need to do a little hand-wringing:

    It’s hard not to be inspired by Mo’nique’s message — though it’s also hard to imagine it truly penetrating our thin-obsessed culture. Her message may also raise tricky questions about the potential dangers of fat acceptance. As Broadsheet’s Kathane Mieszkowski noted in a post about “F.A.T. Chance” last March: “As our nation’s waistlines widen, are we — finally! — widening our beauty standards, too? Hooray! But if so, is that really a good thing, given the health risks associated with being overweight or obese?”

    I fail to see how there are any “dangers of fat acceptance.” I’ll repeat – Mo’Nique isn’t advocating an unhealthy lifestyle. What is the danger in fat women feeling okay with their bodies? Do you think a bunch of skinny women are going to be so inspired by Mo’Nique’s message that women can be “fabulous and thick” that they’re going to start stuffing themselves with fast food and sitting on the couch all day long just so they to can have beautiful, fat bodies like her? Do you think fat women are going to be so enthralled with themselves and their beautiful, fat bodies that they are going to ignore their doctors if they tell them they have high blood pressure or high cholesterol or heart disease?

  53. Dilan said:

    I am sorry but I don’t buy this “why does every discussion of fat have to mention the health risks” argument. The fact is, if those who trumpet the “size-positive” position really were secure in their position, why would they care when people bring up the health risks. “So what! I know it may be risky. But I’m proud of who I am and I don’t think it matters one bit if I’m overweight.”

    It’s because talk about “health risks” is used to justify discriminatory beliefs and behaviours.

  54. Piny, thank you for all you have said here. I want to put some of the arguments you’ve put forth into an entry about this on my site, but I know there will be at least two or three “well did you know that obesity REALLY DOES carry health risks?” comments, and I just really can’t take that this morning.

    I’m gonna go eat about fifteen of those PMS candy bars Jill just posted about instead.

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