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Monitering Mosques?

Ben Shapiro proves yet again that he is a complete idiot.

Mosques across the globe have provided material aid to terrorist groups ranging from al-Qaeda to Islamic Jihad to Hezbollah to Hamas. Muslim terrorists use mosques as networking sites and often as recruitment centers for future terrorist comrades. There is no doubt that law enforcement should be heavily scrutinizing the membership and administration of mosques. Doing so before Sept. 11 could have prevented that catastrophe, just as scrutiny of a small, seemingly insignificant storefront mosque may have prevented major terrorist attacks in Canada. Muslim terrorists are, above all, religious. They will attend mosques, even if only to pray. Forget racial profiling—monitoring mosques is simple common sense.

So we assume that everyone who goes to pray at a mosque is a terrorist? And what, exactly, do we do after we moniter the mosques and get a list of their members — search their homes? Tap their phones? So much for the Fourth Amendment and probable cause.

These kinds of suggestions are deeply troubling. How would Ben like it if Christian churches were monitered for hate speech? I mean, we all know that gays and lesbians are often attacked because of their orientation, by people whose Christian beliefs tell them that being gay is immoral. These people probably go to church, if only to pray. And many churches are used as recruiting centers for homo-bigots. Why not spy on them?

Ben also makes the common mistake of assuming that terrorism and Islam are inextricably interwined. Islam does not create, breed, promote or foster terrorism. Terrorism is a product of feelings of anger, displacement, and powerlessness. It is reactionary, and, as McBoing points out in a fantastic post, certainly not confined to Islamic communities.

Michelle Malkin makes the same dumb mistake as she argues that Islam is the “common denominator” in terrorism. She supports her assertion by listing a series of terrorist activities perpetuated by Muslims. Now, no one is denying that many terrorist acts are done by people who believe in Islam. But her choices are highly selective, and indeed she defines certain actions — like driving a car into a crowd of people — as terrorist attacks simply because they were perpetuated by Muslims in the name of a radical ideology. Would she similarly define as “terrorism” a right-wing Christian driving his car into a crowd at a gay pride parade? I doubt it.

Further, let’s take a look at the history of ideologically-motivated bombings, killings, and other terrorist activities here in the U.S. The most obvious example is Oklahoma City. But Malkin also fails to mention the hundreds of incidents of bombings, shootings, anthrax mailings, arsons, stalkings and threats targeted at abortion clinics and abortion providers. And what about violence targeted at people of color or gays and lesbians? If driving one’s car into a crowd in the name of Islam is terrorism, then certainly beating a man, tying him to your druck and dragging him three miles until he was decapitated in the name of white supremacy is terrorism. Or how about tying a man to a fence, beating him, robbing him and leaving him to die in the name of heterosexuality? James Byrd’s murder was intended to target and terrify the black community, and to make a larger statement about race. Matthew Shephard’s murder was intended to target and terrify the gay community, and to make a larger statement about homosexuality.

You can bet that if the perpetrators of these acts had been Muslim, they’d be on Malkin’s list — but they don’t fit into her narrow formula, and so she pretends that they don’t exist, or perhaps that they aren’t “real” terrorism. And here’s where the right gets itself into trouble when it talks about terrorism: It assumes that terrorism and Islam are so intertwined that it’s nearly unable to come up with a definition of terrorism that leaves religion out of it. The fact is that terrorism is an incredibly old tactic, and has been utlized by people of all kinds of ethnic groups, religions, nationalities, and belief systems. It is not a Muslim creation, and to define it as a “Muslim thing” is itself a threat to our national security and ability to combat violence world-wide.

Further, when our conversations about terrorism target Muslims and hurl stereotypes and hateful language at them, we do ourselves no favors. See Michelle:

A Royal Canadian Mounted Police official coined the baneful phrase “broad strata” to describe the segment of Canadian society from whence Qayyum Abdul Jamal and his fellow adult suspects Fahim Ahmad, Zakaria Amara, Asad Ansari, Shareef Abdelhaleen, Mohammed Dirie, Yasim Abdi Mohamed, Jahmaal James, Amin Mohamed Durrani, Abdul Shakur, Ahmad Mustafa Ghany and Saad Khalid came.

“Broad”? I suppose it is so if one defines “broad” to mean more than one spelling variation of Mohammed or Jamal. Or perhaps, as Internet humorist Jim Treacher (jimtreacher.com) suggests, “broad” refers to the “strata” of the suspects’ beard lengths.

What, exactly, is the point in mocking their names and their appearance? This is the same woman who, justifiably, get pissed when people make Filipino-whore jokes about her or call her by her maiden “ethinic-sounding” name — so where does she get off writing this?

That and she’s a complete idiot for suggesting that just because people share a religion they aren’t from different social stratas. I (very loosely) share a religion with George W. Bush, farmers in Sudan, Serbian mountain-dwellers and missionaries in Southeast India. Are we from the same stratas of society? I would say no. Common religion does not necessarily equal common experience.

Assuming that terrorst = Muslim is incredibly dangerous. But I’m not surprised to see people like Michelle and Ben are doing it. They claim an interest in national security, when the reality is that they’re more interested in hate-mongering.


85 thoughts on Monitering Mosques?

  1. By Shapiro’s and Malkin’s logic, Christianity was responsible for slavery, lynching, Jim Crow, and segregation. I wish these guys would just openly admit they hate Muslims: gimme that ol’ time bigotry…

  2. Would she similarly define as “terrorism” a right-wing Christian driving his car into a crowd at a gay pride parade?

    When did that happen?

  3. Check the straw in your own eye here.

    I mean, we all know that gays and lesbians are often attacked because of their orientation, by people whose Christian beliefs tell them that being gay is immoral. These people probably go to church, if only to pray. And many churches are used as recruiting centers for homo-bigots.

    Christianity is linked to homo-bigotry and churches promote it…

    Ben also makes the common mistake of assuming that terrorism and Islam are inextricably interwined. Islam does not create, breed, promote or foster terrorism. Terrorism is a product of feelings of anger, displacement, and powerlessness.

    Yet Islam does not promote terrorism.

    What is good for the goose, is good for the gander. Why not assert that homobigotry is created by feelings of anger, displacement, and powerlessness?

  4. There was that recent episode in Massachusetts when a young guy attacked a gay bar with a gun and a hatchet and then shot and killed a cop before being killed by the police. I don’t think he was a practicing Christian, but if he’d been named Muhammed bin Islam and had attacked a McDonalds, I’m sure he would have made Malkin’s list even if he never attended Friday prayers. And of course, Eric Rudolph bombed a gay bar, and he was coming from an explicitly Christian perspective.

    Malkin’s argument is self-evidently dumb. The only people who will buy it are people who want so badly to believe it that they’ve intentionally turned off their critical faculties.

  5. this is obvious to any who read this site, i imagine, but i still can’t get over how Terrorism has replaced Communism as the boogeyman du jour.

    all “those people” who live “over there” are “terrorists.” therefore, be afraid of them. because they are different than you, they are not content to live their lives and be left alone – really, they want to destroy “our way of life.” they are out to get “us,” because of course, we are the center of the universe and the focal point of all thought and opinion around the globe.

    the hubris, and the ignorance…

  6. Ben Shapiro is an idiot, but he is not a Christian – he’s an Orthodox Jew.

    Which makes his desire to monitor and approve the religions of others even more disgusting, in my opinion.

  7. Holy crap!

    Every mosque in the world has provided aid to terrorists!

    Wow, the Vigin Ben must be divine or a spy master with intell from all the mosques. We must protect this putz…..er person at all costs. He must be allowed to bring his proof of all this material aid to the Great Decider, the UN and Rush Limbaugh must be briefed!

    What to do? What to do?

  8. Michelle Malkin makes the same dumb mistake as she argues that Islam is the “common denominator” in terrorism.

    She never heard of the IRA? Or Basque separatists? Or the Sons of Liberty, for that matter?

    The “common denominator” in terrorism is that it’s a tactic used by the weak (actual or self-styled) against the strong. Period. Terror is a tactic.

  9. Christianity is linked to homo-bigotry and churches promote it…

    Is it, now? My unitarian dyke aunt would be surprised to hear that.

  10. Piny:

    Someone, a christian, angry at the fundies, suggested calling them “christianists” rather than christians in the manner that we differentiate the whack moslems from the decent ones by calling them “islamists.”

    zuzu:

    Missed ya. Somebody please tell Michelle that Turkey is a member of NATO. You do not want to be caught doing terrorist naughties in Turkey. Or Singapore, or Malaya, or Indonesia.

  11. Is it, now? My unitarian dyke aunt would be surprised to hear that.

    I didn’t originally write: “And many churches are used as recruiting centers for homo-bigots.”

    And many mosques are used as recruiting centers for terrorists.

    Are both allowed, neither, or only one? The last option is hypocritical no matter which one you choose.

  12. Michelle Malkin makes the same dumb mistake as she argues that Islam is the “common denominator” in terrorism.

    It seems to me that the common denominator in terrorism is personhood.

    Fortunately for us, the Bush administration has taken it upon themselves to mine private phone call data for tens of millions of Americans, while simulataneously wiretapping untold thousands without requisite warrants. Obviously if we cast a net so big that everyone’s included, we’ll never be wrong!

  13. Tuomas sez:

    Check the straw in your own eye here.

    I mean, we all know that gays and lesbians are often attacked because of their orientation, by people whose Christian beliefs tell them that being gay is immoral. These people probably go to church, if only to pray. And many churches are used as recruiting centers for homo-bigots.

    Christianity is linked to homo-bigotry and churches promote it…

    Ben also makes the common mistake of assuming that terrorism and Islam are inextricably interwined. Islam does not create, breed, promote or foster terrorism. Terrorism is a product of feelings of anger, displacement, and powerlessness.

    Yet Islam does not promote terrorism.

    What is good for the goose, is good for the gander. Why not assert that homobigotry is created by feelings of anger, displacement, and powerlessness?

    Dictionary.com sez:

    i·ro·ny Audio pronunciation of “irony” ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-n, r-)
    n. pl. i·ro·nies

    1.
    a. The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.
    b. An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning.
    c. A literary style employing such contrasts for humorous or rhetorical effect[…]

    And piny, everyone knows that Unitarians aren’t real Christians, so your aunt doesn’t count. 😉

  14. Ack…everything between “Tuomas sez” and “dictionary.com sez” in my comment 15 comes from Tuomas’ comment 4…blockquote doesn’t work like i think it does…

  15. Yes, Irony is what leftists alwaysclaim when they are nailed on hypocrisy/inconsistency/bigotry (righties claim “un-PC”). Bottom line, such opinion did not seem ironic when considering rest of the content, like the true, and horrid Matt Shephard case. Yet Jill specifically absolved Islam of responsibility toward terrorism, something she did not choose to do with the regard of Christianity.

    But hey, tee hee! Can’t you take a joke? Perhaps I’ll post a dictionary definition of irony!

    Tiresome, RL. Tiresome.

  16. Tuomas, you need to read the statement in context.. Jill was implying that monitoring churches for the hateful actions of a few of its followers would be EVERY BIT AS ABSURD as doing the same for mosques. There’s no hypocrisy that I can see.

  17. Yet Jill specifically absolved Islam of responsibility toward terrorism, something she did not choose to do with the regard of Christianity.

    No, she didn’t. She absolved Muslims of their collective culpability in terrorism–which collective guilt she dismisses entirely with regard to Christianity and homophobia. My unitarian dyke aunt bears zero responsibility for homophobia in the Christian faiths she does not belong to and does not agree with. She doesn’t have some special responsibility as someone who also happens to be a friend of Jesus to distance herself from their behavior any more than she has already done. Anyone not a bigot would know better than to confuse the two belief systems.

  18. No, she didn’t. She absolved Muslims of their collective culpability in terrorism–which collective guilt she dismisses entirely with regard to Christianity and homophobia.

    Oh? Where does she do this?

  19. Jill wrote:

    Islam does not create, breed, promote or foster terrorism.

    I wrote:

    Jill specifically absolved Islam of responsibility toward terrorism

    Entirely correct reading.

  20. Uh, right here:

    These kinds of suggestions are deeply troubling. How would Ben like it if Christian churches were monitered for hate speech? I mean, we all know that gays and lesbians are often attacked because of their orientation, by people whose Christian beliefs tell them that being gay is immoral. These people probably go to church, if only to pray. And many churches are used as recruiting centers for homo-bigots. Why not spy on them?

    See how the whole post was about how bad an idea this would be? What an assault on civil liberties, and how unfair to the believers themselves? She’s saying that Christianity, like Islam, cannot be tarred with this broad a brush. Nowhere in this post does she argue that all Christians are bigots, or that Christians as a class bear collective responsibility for the actions of some Christians, or that we should monitor churches to catch homophobes. Her whole point is that this is a really counterproductive way to think.

  21. Yet she never once affords the same benefit of doubt to the faith of Christianity she so very easily gives to the faith of Islam. I got the civil liberties gist, and I got the unfair generalizations.

    What she says here that Christian beliefs tell that being gay is immoral, but apparently Islam does not say anything supportive of terrorism.

  22. Jill specifically absolved Islam of responsibility toward terrorism

    Sadly, No! Here’s the rest of the quote:

    Ben also makes the common mistake of assuming that terrorism and Islam are inextricably interwined. Islam does not create, breed, promote or foster terrorism. Terrorism is a product of feelings of anger, displacement, and powerlessness. It is reactionary, and, as McBoing points out in a fantastic post, certainly not confined to Islamic communities.

    She’s arguing that terrorism is neither characteristic of Islam, and that Islam is not more susceptible to it than, say, Christianity. You’re arguing that she said that people who call themselves Muslims cannot be terrorists, and that terrorists cannot use Islam as an excuse. That’s different. If I had written in a post about Matthew Shepard and my unitarian dyke aunt, “Christianity does not create hatred,” you’d be trolling if you read me as arguing that Shepard’s killers were actually atheists.

  23. What she says here that Christian beliefs tell that being gay is immoral, but apparently Islam does not say anything supportive of terrorism.

    No, she didn’t. She said that some people who call themselves Christian can also be homophobes. Some Christians, on the other hand, consider homophobia to be anti-Christian. The difference is how much they want to hate gay people, not how closely they’re reading scripture.

  24. No. You wish she had said that. I kind of wish that too.

    “people whose Christian beliefs tell them that being gay is immoral.”

    Let me highlight:

    Christian beliefs tell them that being gay is immoral.

  25. Christian beliefs tell them that being gay is immoral.

    Right, because Christianity holds as much potential for excusing hatred as every other ideology. There are Christians who commit and support acts of violence against gay people. My unitarian dyke aunt, on the other hand, shows how easy it is to glean the reverse.

    She also says this:

    Now, no one is denying that many terrorist acts are done by people who believe in Islam.

  26. Wow, way to thread hijack, Tuomas!

    Anyway, I can’t believe this is still a topic so many years after 9/11, but duh, Islam actually does not create, breed, promote or foster terrorism. Most Muslims aren’t even from the Middle East. Only like 18 percent of Muslims in the world are Arab. Most Muslims are Asian, from places like China and Indonesia. Where are the hordes of Chinese anti-American terrorists if Islam inherently fosters terrorism?

    Maybe it’s the political, social, and economic realities of life in the horrible Middle Eastern dictatorships that foster terrorism, rather than Islam (which actually has rather strict rules about warfare that *specifically prohibits* attacking civilians and tactics like suicide bombing). If history had been different and the region were populated by Hindus rather than Muslims, then they’d be bombing shit in the name of Krishna.

    And to comment on the other post about the patronizing of Muslim women by Western feminists, this attitude is prevalent towards Muslim women in America, who are American by birth. Pretty much every Muslim woman I know has had someone express to them that they don’t have to wear the veil if they don’t want to (duh,I’m sure they know that), or else they assume there’s a man somewhere controlling how they dress. The idea that they could possibly choose to wear hijab never even crosses the minds of the nosy busybodies offering assvice.

    (In interest of full disclosure, I was raised Muslim but am a total athiest. I have problems with Islam…and all religions…but the idea that its ‘fostering terrorism’ is not a serious issue for anyone who’s not an idiot.)

  27. I’m happy for your aunt. It wasn’t the subject here, or included in the post.

    Christian beliefs tell them that being gay is immoral.

    Now, no one is denying that many terrorist acts are done by people who believe in Islam.

    These two are not analogous, in the Islam part, the belief is not the causal agent of terrorism (according to her), whereas in the Christianity the belief is the causal agent of considering gayness immoral (according to her).

  28. I’m happy for your aunt. It wasn’t the subject here, or included in the post.

    Yes, it was. Jill acknowledges people like her; you’re intent on reading her as though she hadn’t.

    These two are not analogous, in the Islam part, the belief is not the causal agent of terrorism (according to her), whereas in the Christianity the belief is the causal agent of considering gayness immoral (according to her).

    Wrong. Homophobia and tolerance are both Christian beliefs in the sense that they can be held by believers who use scripture to justify them. This is different from saying that either Christianity or Islam cause hatred and violence, or that Matthew Shepard’s murderers would not have found some other excuse had they belonged to a different faith.

  29. Wrong. Homophobia and tolerance are both Christian beliefs in the sense that they can be held by believers who use scripture to justify them.

    How is this different to terrorism and non-terrorism in Islam?

  30. Tuomas:

    You miss the point…entirely.

    Dyke aunt can say, “My Christian beliefs tell me not to hate (fill in group).

    Fundie can say, “My Christian beliefs tell me that (fill in group) are immoral.

    Jill is making a judgement about Islam but not about Christianity. The first is a statement but the second is a reinteration.

    Next dictionary entry will be for “obtuse.”

  31. Oh, you folks crack me up with your dictionaries.

    About as much as you crack me up by pretending that Jill’s post had anything at all to do with Piny’s aunt.

    Jill is making a judgement about Islam but not about Christianity.

    Precisely! She is making a positive judgement about Islam, but not of Christianity.

  32. How is this different to terrorism and non-terrorism in Islam?

    Terrorism is a tactic, not an ideology.

  33. About as much as you crack me up by pretending that Jill’s post had anything at all to do with Piny’s aunt.

    Right. It was really all about how Christianity is worse than Islam.

    Precisely! She is making a positive judgement about Islam, but not of Christianity.

    Christ on a crutch. Remind me never to make an analogy in your presence again. The post goes like this: “Why would you apply this dumbass logic to this group of people? It’d be just as stupid as applying it to that group of people! Would you like that? Would that be fair? Is that an accurate description of you, since you belong to that group of people? Of course not!”

    The whole point is that generalizations about religion, or the idea that any given belief system causes terrorism, are stupid. Obviously, that goes for Christianity as well as Islam.

  34. Listen. Carefully. Point. Of. Post

    Should we monitor ALL mosques because terrorism is fostered in SOME of them?

    If yes…

    Should we monitor ALL churches because terrorism is fostered in SOME of them?

    Nothing more, nothing less.

  35. Terrorism is a tactic, not an ideology.

    and…?

    The whole point is that generalizations about religion, or the idea that any given belief system causes terrorism, are stupid. Obviously, that goes for Christianity as well as Islam.

    Oh, right. So if you have a belief system that’s holy texts directly advocate terrorism as a viably tactic, it’s just stupid?

  36. Oh, right. So if you have a belief system that’s holy texts directly advocate terrorism as a viably tactic, it’s just stupid?

    You mean, like that passage in Leviticus about how men who lie with men deserve to die? Funny how the Lutheran majority in your country doesn’t seem terribly invested in their duty to God.

  37. You mean, like that passage in Leviticus about how men who lie with men deserve to die? Funny how the Lutheran majority in your country doesn’t seem terribly invested in their duty to God.

    Boy, am I glad about that.

    So, could one say that that Christianity is bigoted against gays?

    In my opinion, yes.

    On the other hand, JC brought an aspect of forgiveness to the faith, essentially transforming it into nonpolitical hippy pacifist religion of the heart.

  38. So, could one say that that Christianity is bigoted against gays?

    In my opinion, yes.

    I disagree. See below:

    On the other hand, JC brought an aspect of forgiveness to the faith, essentially transforming it into nonpolitical hippy pacifist religion of the heart.

    Except for all the Christians who don’t feel that way about their faith at all. In other words, Christianity is completely flexible. There’s nothing about being Christian that makes you tolerant or intolerant. Some people get into it for the love, and some people come for the abuse. A homophobe who did not have access to Leviticus would go with pseudoscience or historical revisionism or something else entirely.

  39. Oh, you folks crack me up with your dictionaries.

    About as much as you crack me up by pretending that Jill’s post had anything at all to do with Piny’s aunt.

    I won’t if you won’t.

  40. So if you have a belief system that’s holy texts directly advocate terrorism as a viably tactic, it’s just stupid?

    Are you saying Islam’s holy texts say this? (Honestly just asking for clarification.)

  41. Bigotry has all to do with being the social animal we call “human being”, not Christian or Muslim or whatever. Religion is one of the elablorate excuses we use to justify our bigotry and as was stated above terrorism is a tactic very often used to implement the outward expression of our social dominance and hatred.

    Face it, human beings have the propensity to be social tyrants because we don’t like it when others fuck about with our view of how things should be ordered. It makes us insecure, it could, in the past, play hell with our ability to survive (remaining upright and breathing or food in our bellys and having babies).

  42. Maybe it’s the political, social, and economic realities of life in the horrible Middle Eastern dictatorships that foster terrorism

    I’m getting kind of sick of this explanation for terrorism, specifically in regards to Al Qaeda. Osama bin Laden is a multimillionaire. Most of the September 11th hijackers were relatively well-educated and wealthy. One of them received $2,000 a month from his family in Lebanon. The money usually goes in the opposite direction. A third-world family has to be extremely wealthy to afford to send that much money to a relative in the States.

    If poor, uneducated men were involved, I might buy the argument that feelings of powerlessness are fueling Al Qaeda, but poor, uneducated men seem to be too busy trying to survive to be interested in terrorism.

  43. plucky punk:

    Are you saying Islam’s holy texts say this? (Honestly just asking for clarification.)


    Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah’s Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.


    Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.

    My emphasis.

    Kind of sounds like it. Of course, there are verses of opposite kind, too — but the adamant claim that Islam does not condone terror is unsupportable.

    (I wonder which of the common excuses I’ll be hearing, next).

  44. If poor, uneducated men were involved, I might buy the argument that feelings of powerlessness are fueling Al Qaeda, but poor, uneducated men seem to be too busy trying to survive to be interested in terrorism.

    I didn’t say that poor people caused terrorism. I said economic, social, and political realities had to do with it. These would include western cultural imperalism, different cultures smooshed together into falsely created borders as a legacy of colonialism, theocratic dictatorships, etc. Not just poor people. (And for some in the Arab world, like for instance a Palestinian suicide bomber who is promised money and care for his family after his death, terrorism *is* a way to survive.)

    And ’cause’ is not the same thing as ‘excuse.’ To give a really over simplified analogy, if there were all sorts of social problems leading to high crime rates in inner cities, making an effort to fix the social problems doesn’t mean you don’t also punish the criminals.

  45. Tuomas, that’s pretty weak. Striking terror into the hearts of enemies is pretty standard fare, but it’s not “terrorism.” Which, as I’ve been saying, is a tactic, and a specific one.

    And you want to talk about violent talk, let’s quote Jesus here:

    “I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence. (Luke 19:26-27)

    “Do not think that I have come to send peace on earth. I did not come to send peace, but a sword. I am sent to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law” (Matthew 10:34-35)

    The devil can quote Scripture, etc., etc.

    And the Old Testament is chock full of smitings and baby-killing and rapes.

    Your point?

  46. Tuomas, I’m not going to get into a ‘quote-off’ with you, because I’d have to get my dad on the phone to pull out the really juicy ones and because the argument that Islam = terrorism is a really stupid one when you notice that, say, the 100 million Chinese Muslims don’t want to kill you. Are the Chinese translations of the Quran somehow flawed? There are something like 1.6 billion Muslims in the world today. If terrorism were somehow inherent to Islam, then every single country in the world would be in chaos.

    And to use your own logic, if there are verses of the ‘opposite kind’ (and there certianly are…there are many that specifically deal with civilians in warfare and suicide in warfare and how if they knew anything the so-called ‘martyr’ suicide bombers are going straight to hell…) then wouldn’t that mean, since using one verse you’ve made a judgement about an entire religion, that from the other verse you could make the opposite judgement with equal authority?

    This is one of the main reasons I’m an athiest. All religions I’ve ever studied have stupid, contradictory dogma (thou shalt not kill…or suffer witches to live). All religions.

  47. I didn’t say that poor people caused terrorism. I said economic, social, and political realities had to do with it. These would include western cultural imperalism, different cultures smooshed together into falsely created borders as a legacy of colonialism, theocratic dictatorships, etc. Not just poor people.

    Ho hum… The classic fare of non-responsibility of the noble savages. Add crusades to ratchet up the outrage.

    Terrorism is caused by terrorists.

    And the Old Testament is chock full of smitings and baby-killing and rapes.

    Yes!

    It’s the “but Bible has that too“! :p

    My point?

    I was asked for examples of Islam condoning terror tactics. Presto. For more, read this site.

  48. I was asked for examples of Islam condoning terror tactics.

    And you came up with striking terror into the hearts of enemies.

    For crap’s sake, football teams talk like that to psych themselves up for a big game. And we don’t call them terrorists.

    So, no dice.

  49. There are something like 1.6 billion Muslims in the world today. If terrorism were somehow inherent to Islam, then every single country in the world would be in chaos.

    You might want to look how the Muslim majority countries are comparing, especially non-secular ones. You might also note that almost everywhere Muslims have to coexist with other religions (unless suppressed by a police state like China you keep talking about… It might be because Chinese Muslims have more pressing concerns) are waging various levels of war on their neighbors (to be fair, some are totally the other ones fault e.g. Chechnya).

    So because there’s so many Muslims, Islam can’t possibly be bad? Bullshit.

  50. comparing to Western Democracies, I mean.

    But that must be those Finnish and Icelandic Imperialists stealing from the Ummah? Right?

  51. (I wonder which of the common excuses I’ll be hearing, next).

    Is an admonition to resist invading armies or even to conquer other lands necessarily the same as saying terrorism is acceptable? After all the Koran specifically forbids making war on women and children which is the whole point of terrorism. Historically, Islam has been much more tolerant of other religions living in their conquered lands than Christians have; e.g., the Egyptian Coptics. They are considered “Peoples of the Book.” They took no mercy, however, on idolaters or unbelievers which doesn’t necessarily include Christians and Jews.

    I’m not a fan of Islam nor an apologist for it. However, the point was whether we should bug mosques but not Christian churches.

  52. Ho hum… The classic fare of non-responsibility of the noble savages. Add crusades to ratchet up the outrage.

    Wow. You are like the best troll ever. I never get people this good at my blog.

    Did you read the next paragraph in my post? Because something influences someone to do something, doesn’t mean they don’t have a responsibility to try and resist those influences. But if you don’t make the influences go away, the person is probably going to eventually do that thing.

    I’m about to give birth any day now. If I spend every day with my new baby beating them with a stick, the likely hood of them growing up to beat their own child with a stick will probably increase. Now, that doesn’t mean they don’t have a choice to beat their kid with a stick or not, and if they do choose to beat them it doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be locked up and kept away from children forever, but it also means I probably shouldn’t have beat them with a stick in the first place.

  53. Is an admonition to resist invading armies or even to conquer other lands necessarily the same as saying terrorism is acceptable?

    No, but Muslims are urged to use any means necessary to do this.

    And what the hell do you mean it can not be terror if it’s mere men?

    . Historically, Islam has been much more tolerant of other religions living in their conquered lands than Christians have; e.g., the Egyptian Coptics. They are considered “Peoples of the Book.” They took no mercy, however, on idolaters or unbelievers which doesn’t necessarily include Christians and Jews.

    I’m well aware that Islam considers Christians and Jews brother faiths, it is the third, youngest Abrahamic religion and can thus have specific rules for treatment of the other two.

    However, not good enough. Wanting (and often managing to do that, historically and now) to kill polytheists and atheists is a deal-breaker.

  54. So because there’s so many Muslims, Islam can’t possibly be bad? Bullshit.

    Nooo, because there are so many Muslims and they don’t all want to kill you, means that all Muslims don’t want to kill you and therefore shouldn’t be treated as though they do (have their places of worship monitored, the whole point of the thread before you hijacked it).

    Seems pretty clear to me.

  55. plucky punk:

    I don’t even agree that some of the things you listed are anywhere near legitimate causes for outrage, like the vague “cultural imperialism”.

    (And on a side note, I honestly congratulate on the coming baby… I still disagree with you on these issues.)

  56. If people belon ging to my demographic would be disproportionately involved in attacks against, say, Germany, and I went to live in Germany, it would be commonsensical and not offensive should the authorities want to look upon my activities little closer. Draw the conclusions to this case.

    Bugging a mosque? Horrible, I’m sure.

  57. If people belon ging to my demographic would be disproportionately involved in attacks against, say, Germany, and I went to live in Germany, it would be commonsensical and not offensive should the authorities want to look upon my activities little closer.

    If that were the only reason they had for looking into your activities closer, it would be racial profiling and offensive to me. If you don’t care if you’re racially profiled then bully for you, but that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be an injustice.

    And while it’s very sweet of you to offer congradulations, you think my baby’s grandfather should be monitored as though he’s going to whip out an explosives vest and kill all the infidels at any second, so thanks but no thanks.

  58. And what the hell do you mean it can not be terror if it’s mere men?

    In the Koran, specifically from the mouth of the Prophet, war on women and children is dishonorable. It is forbidden. Since terror attacks are generally indiscriminate or even specifically aimed at non-combattants they are, therefore, forbidden. Some of the modern mullahs have, of course, found ways around this. Kind of like we’ve found ways around “You cannot server both God and Mammon.”

  59. He probably doesn’t have to, all he has to do is get passive-aggressive and make it darn hard for officials to get their hands on the actual radicals.

    That’s how it works. If the majority of Muslims truly rejected terrorism, the problem with terrorism would be minuscule.

  60. And when the men are killed, what does the Prophet command to be done with the women and children (who Islam treats so well generally…)?

  61. And when the men are killed, what does the Prophet command to be done with the women and children (who Islam treats so well generally…)?

    Dude. If you’re going to condemn a religious text for either condoning or advocating war, let alone for being sexist…there’s really not much point discussing this any further, is there?

  62. Well, if people insist on putting a dishonest positive spin to something that does not have IMO many redeeming qualities, I protest.

    … But probably not much point anymore, eh?

  63. Well, if people insist on putting a dishonest positive spin to something that does not have IMO many redeeming qualities, I protest.

    The dishonesty is in pretending that Quranic approval of warfare, hard-sell conversion, sexism, and the killing of men in combat as distinct from the massacre of women ‘n’ children as civilians is somehow unique to Islam, or that it must affect Islam more than similar proscriptions in the Bible affect Christianity today. “How evolved were the attitudes of seventh-century patriarchs towards the women and children of a conquered people, hmmm?” is really reaching.

  64. He probably doesn’t have to, all he has to do is get passive-aggressive and make it darn hard for officials to get their hands on the actual radicals.

    That’s how it works. If the majority of Muslims truly rejected terrorism, the problem with terrorism would be minuscule.

    This is my father. The fact that you think, based only on his chosen religion, that he should be treated as though he is some sort of threat to you, when he has spent the years since September 11th working his ass off trying to prove otherwise is insulting in the utmost extreme.

    Oh, and to answer your other question, the Prophet commanded that war widows and non-combatants be cared for.

  65. “When Allah permitted [the Muslims] to respond to aggression [by saying] ‘ Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed [Koran 22:39],’ he laid down principles that would guarantee noble human behavior [on the part of the Muslims]. The Muslim responds only to someone who has attacked him, without deviation [as stated in the Koran 2:194]: ‘ And one who attack s you, attack him in like manner as he attacked you, ‘ [and also:] ‘ Fight for the sake of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities [Koran 2:190].’

    “It is forbidden to attack noncombatants, even if they belong to the attacking countries. The soul of man is sacred and an attack on it is an attack on all humanity. [This is because it says in Koran 5:32:] ‘W hoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men.’

    “The Prophet [Muhammad] forbade the killing of women and children, saying ‘Do not kill a small child’ and ‘Do not kill descendants and simple laborers,’ [i.e.] anyone who hires him to carry out services that are not connected to fighting. Similarly, Islam has forbidden the murder of hostages and [priests] who dedicate themselves to God.

    “Islam does not permit the capture or abduction of noncombatants. In the event that [noncombatants] are captured, Allah commanded [Muhammad] his Messenger to treat them well [as it says in Koran 76:8]: ‘And they feed, for the love of Allah, the indigent, the orphan, and the captive’ [and Muhammad said] ‘Treat prisoners well.’

  66. The point is, men=/=combatant.

    Yes, but a civilian population in civilian setting probably won’t consist of men only. The division between “men” and “women and children” is a traditional division between combatant and non-combatant.

  67. I grossly misjudged your father, but then, it was mostly a generalized statement.

    Oh. Well. That’s all right, then.

    Oh, it isn’t unique to Islam. But it won’t change by living in denial, as didn’t other fundamentalisms.

    Yeah, see, this here is a hijack. You’ve gone from “ungenerous and senseless reading of what Jill said,” to, “way the fuck out in left field.”

  68. I grossly misjudged your father, but then, it was mostly a generalized statement.

    Yeah, that’s the problem with racial profiling, and why it’s odious, and why all people of conscience should speak out against it.

  69. Oh. Well. That’s all right, then.

    No, I really am sorry.

    Yeah, see, this here is a hijack.

    I mostly responded to questions posed to me, which I believe is good manners. I admit that I have strong feelings on the issue — which is why I originally intended to limit my discussion into pointing out the discrepancy in treatment of Christianity and Islam in the article.

  70. He probably doesn’t have to, all he has to do is get passive-aggressive and make it darn hard for officials to get their hands on the actual radicals.

    The same could be said for the good Christians who hid Eric Rudolph for years.

  71. which is why I originally intended to limit my discussion into pointing out the discrepancy in treatment of Christianity and Islam in the article.

    The article is about how Ben Shapiro is wrong for wanting to treat Islam different than Christianity. What’s the issue?

  72. If you were really concerned for national security you’d be really, really afraid of the terrorist = Muslim meme. Because if terrorist = Muslim, well, we’re going to have to either close the borders, end the global economy (including oil imports) and retreat behind an economically self-sufficient but depressed fortress America, or kill or convert about a billion people before we ever have security. Neither of these, it should go without saying, is a particularly appealing option from the perspective of America’s, or the world’s best interest. The only hope of living in both a secure and prosperous America lies in the fact that terrorism is in no way inherently connected to Islam (the suicide bombing, for one, was invented by the Tamil Tigers) but rather a product of irrational, desperate political extremism, often combined with disenfranchisement or colonial conditions.

  73. Wow, Tuomas, I had no idea that my post could be willfully misinterpreted so severely.

    I wasn’t saying that Christian beliefs = homobigotry. I was using the same framework that Ben Shapiro did, and imposing it on Christiantiy to demonstrate how ridiculous it is. i.e., Ben essentially says, “We all know that terrorists are Muslim…” and I follwed with, “We all know that homo-bigots are Christian…” Neither of these statements are entirely true. Are some terrorists Muslim? Yes. Are some homo-bigots Christian? Yes. But does Muslim = terrorist any more than Christian = homo-bigot? Of course not. Does it make sense to monitor mosques because of our flawed assumption that Muslims are terrorists? No. Does it make sense to monitor churches because of our flawed assumptions that Christians are homo-bigots? No.

    I thought it was clear enough.

    And before you suggest that I don’t give Christianity the same benefit of the doubt that I give Islam, or that I’m somehow anti-Christian, check your assumptions about what my own faith is.

  74. bellatrys and Zuzu:

    I am aware of horribleness in the Bible and I would not make excuses for Christians who side with murderers, like the ones who hid Eric Rudolph, (which, again, I admit was an unfair accusation toward plucky punk’s father).

  75. And before you suggest that I don’t give Christianity the same benefit of the doubt that I give Islam, or that I’m somehow anti-Christian, check your assumptions about what my own faith is.

    Leftism.

  76. The only hope of living in both a secure and prosperous America lies in the fact that terrorism is in no way inherently connected to Islam

    ?

    When you wish upon a star…

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