In defense of the sanctimonious women's studies set || First feminist blog on the internet

Suitability

So I was reading the New Yorker profile on Sarah Silverman (not a pop-culture post! I promise!), in which Dana Goodyear opens its meditation on women in the industry with this line:

“Comedy is probably the last remaining branch of the arts whose suitability for women is still openly discussed.”

I’m sure there are plenty of women who could come up with examples besides standup–Ginmar, most notably.

I take art classes whenever I can fit them in. These openings are mainly restricted to evenings and weekends, which means I get a lot of continuing-education classmates: middle-aged people and retirees who want a new and interesting hobby. Maybe they’re just starting, maybe they’ve painted all their lives, and maybe they even attended art school at some point. It’s gratifying to paint with them. They love what they’re doing entirely for its own sake, and a lot of them have incredible patience. They’ve had decades to experiment with techniques and media. A lot of them are women–the stereotype of the old-lady watercolorist holds a kernel of truth, although there are certainly men in these classes.

Listening to them is a little bit like listening to my mom tell stories about what it was like to apply to grad school programs in the mid-sixties.

My last painting teacher told me that he abolished class critiques (we all take turns putting up work; everyone else takes turns telling us what they think; in night classes it’s mostly, “That persimmon looks kind of lonely all the way over there by himself…”) because a lot of the women would drop out rather than participate in them. He encountered women in his classes whose hands would shake whenever they picked up a paintbrush. All of them art-school dropouts, and all of them terrified of painting.

And he recalled art school as he experienced it, and completely understood why. It wasn’t just a boys’ club. It was the Citadel. The guys in the class would band together and completely savage the work of any female students. The professors–virtually all male–would most likely join in. The women would not be part of a pack at any point during the class critiques; they’d be alone, alone, alone, shut down as artists and shouted down as evaluators. And as he remembered it, the criticism that flooded over them was almost always more vicious and less constructive than what the men heard. A lot of these women would leave in one way or another; if they kept creating and attending, they would not draw primary support from that place.

Fast forward thirty years, and he’s teaching them watercolor.

I think his solution is not such a bad one. His students can still receive advice from him and from other students; he’s just opted out of the all-against-one format of the critiques, which can be overwhelming. And I’m glad that he understands the problem itself, and doesn’t dismiss their fear as trivial or stupid.

Although the women in my classes are perfectly functional painters, I do encounter a great deal more reflexive self-deprecation from them than from the guys. Since night classes are very relaxed, and since watercolor tends to involve intermissions while you wait for your last layer to dry, it’s common to wander around and look at everyone’s work.

When I compliment any given woman, the response is usually some variation on, “Thanks, but it’s not very good.” Since I started passing consistently, the response has started to include, “Yours is much better.” When I compliment any given guy, the response is usually some variation on, “Thanks! I’ve been experimenting with blah on the blah blah blah. I’m really happy with it too. This blah technique on the blah blah is frustrating.”

The guys are also much more likely to walk around and offer advice, sometimes more so than the professor: “You should try blah with the blah.” Or, “I like this, but it’s sort of blah over in the blah area.”

And during the critiques, when we have them, the women are much more likely to respond to any suggestion, no matter how stupid, extreme, or labor-intensive, with, “Yes, you’re right. I should try that.” The guys, on the other hand, tend to respond with either, “Nah,” or, “I already tried that, and it didn’t work.” They have a more durable sense of artistic self, and a much clearer idea of what they’re doing. The class is there to serve them. It’s enviable.

Some of my teachers have encouraged this dynamic. There’s a particular kind of male art professor. He’s progessive, kind, generous with his time and his advice, and entirely respectful towards every one of the women in his class…but. He loves the idea of himself as a mentor, and would very much like to forget that he’s teaching an afternoon class at a cultural center to a cohort who will spend the break talking about the cheese counter at Whole Foods. He talks constantly about the famous artists he’s known and the squalid New York apartments in which he’s lived; he rhapsodizes about the Impressionists and the time he spent in Paris. If he can, he will tell you what lavender in Provence really looks like (purple), and what Louise Nevelson is like in person (weird).

And he’s got himself a protegee who is always, always, always a guy. That guy is a personal friend. That guy talks to him before class and after class. That guy is going somewhere, even when he really isn’t. That guy receives the highest praise, even though that guy usually isn’t much better than the other students. That guy is an artist. The women next to him are just little old ladies with paint sets.


45 thoughts on Suitability

  1. This post reminded me substantially of “Schoolgirls” by Peggy Orenstein. The book looks at self esteem drops among middle school girls at two schools (one affluent and mostly white the other inner city and black/hispanic primarily).

    Many of the observations in the book mirror yours in art class.

  2. I’ve seen this kind of stuff almost anywhere I look, in any context of critiquing. I’ve made it a point, for probably a decade now, to NOT self deprecate on a compliment but to answer much more like the men aboved are described as doing.

    But now I’m going to add in the same kinds of responses to critiques now. Excellent notion.

    I haven’t the faintest for how to go about fixing this besides one person at a time (me), though 🙁

  3. I’ve made it a point, for probably a decade now, to NOT self deprecate on a compliment but to answer much more like the men aboved are described as doing.

    It occurs to me reading this that “Thanks! I’ve been doing blah blah blah…” is also much better for the complimentee’s development: it carries the potential for further discussion than, “You’re very sweet, but my work blows dead wharf rats.”

    I haven’t the faintest for how to go about fixing this besides one person at a time (me), though 🙁

    If you’ve ever been in a classroom setting, you know how easily one disruptive student can derail a discussion into negative worth, right? Your own efforts will probably be very effective in your immediate sphere.

    Maybe you could also talk to your professors?

  4. That post was extremely moving and well-written, and I personally found a great deal to appreciate and agree with.

    However…when I watched Dave Chappelle’s Block Party about a week ago, I was equally as moved by Wyclef Jean’s admonishing the high school band to not allow racial discrimination to be an obstacle to them in their lives. “Go to the library,” he told them, “and if you have no library, petition the city to build you one.”

    When a man shouts at an artist in a classroom, what exactly is she afraid of? What about all the people in other parts of the world who have no classrooms to be intimidated in, and yet make amazing art anyway?

    Besides, how is art or comedy or poetry “suitible” for anyone, fer crissakes?

  5. However…when I watched Dave Chappelle’s Block Party about a week ago, I was equally as moved by Wyclef Jean’s admonishing the high school band to not allow racial discrimination to be an obstacle to them in their lives. “Go to the library,” he told them, “and if you have no library, petition the city to build you one.”

    In other words, “Don’t listen to the people who tell you you’re of lesser worth! Complain about inequality until it changes!”

    When a man shouts at an artist in a classroom, what exactly is she afraid of? What about all the people in other parts of the world who have no classrooms to be intimidated in, and yet make amazing art anyway?

    Um, being shouted at. There and everywhere else. It’s not about fear, although verbal abuse can be damaging. It’s about being deprived of the educational resources–in this case, a teacher who supports you, classmates who work with you, and a classroom that you can stand to enter–that the men in your class take for granted. Inequality, which Wyclef Jean says we should complain about.

    And what about those other people–many of whom, I’m sure, are pretty pissed off themselves? They manage without, so women should never question why they must go without? Some of them manage to succeed despite overwhelming odds, so no woman should feel overwhelmed?

    >

    Besides, how is art or comedy or poetry “suitible” for anyone, fer crissakes?

    What position do you think you’re arguing with here?

  6. Another thing I noticed in night classes is the difference in subject matter between men and women.

    In a creative writing class I once took [which I left because the tutor was one of those guys who had a “studio” aka garden shed out his back garden, long pony tail & beard and used the phrases “adventures with the pen/drawing on the inspiring muse” liberally]

    Where was I?

    In a creative writing class I once took, all the men seemed to choose “grand” themes and topics like politics, religion, death, etc. What were the women [mostly well to-do housewives, a tad on the golf-playing, snotty side] writing about? Their hate towards their husband’s mistresses.

    Ja, I shit you not. 80% of the class was female, and all they ever wrote about was their hatred towards their big bad husbands and how cruel the world is, and how *ever* so devoted they had been, and now this was the thanks they got… for all the world, they sounded like Prince Charming had just cheated on Cinderella with the Fairy Godmother and poor old Cindy is PMSing.

    Sorry for the novel-length comment, but I can tell you, I was just as embarrassed as the men, having to listen to them. Sure it may have been carthartic for these ladies, but it sure smacked of letting the side down.

  7. Sounds like poor facilitation (which I can understand given the context). It’s not a perfect solution, but if the gender bias is so strong, maybe a woman-only class?

    Public critiques are a really important part of the process for artists, so it seems like too much of a compromise to avoid them altogether. Art is communication, so it’s important to hear what viewers see. If the artists intend to go out into a larger community, it’s a huge disservice to keep them isolated from criticism. Seems to me that learning how to take and parse criticism is the hardest lesson for artists to learn. If the facilitator more actively moderates the criticism and keeps it in a positive place.

    From what I see the art world has come a long way from what your teacher described 30 years ago. Still harshly sexist though if you look at the proportion of women showing (and I’ve noticed that while artists like to buy the myth that they’re living outside convention, unfair beauty standards are damned obvious).

  8. Public critiques are a really important part of the process for artists, so it seems like too much of a compromise to avoid them altogether. Art is communication, so it’s important to hear what viewers see. If the artists intend to go out into a larger community, it’s a huge disservice to keep them isolated from criticism. Seems to me that learning how to take and parse criticism is the hardest lesson for artists to learn. If the facilitator more actively moderates the criticism and keeps it in a positive place.

    Criticism definitely didn’t disappear from the class. It seemed to flourish, actually, when the students could talk amongst themselves. There was less pressure and more equality. Plus, the critiques tended to be more reciprocal–“I see you’re working on blah; I’ve been doing blah blah….” and informal.

  9. From what I see the art world has come a long way from what your teacher described 30 years ago. Still harshly sexist though if you look at the proportion of women showing (and I’ve noticed that while artists like to buy the myth that they’re living outside convention, unfair beauty standards are damned obvious).

    I think some of it is access and clannishness. The boys’ club is not necessarily an active wish to discriminate; it’s a tendency to identify with people most like you combined with a particular tendency to draw gendered lines. That’s the impulse behind rejecting the idea of lady comics out of hand. Jokes are based on shared understanding. Things are funny because they’re true, that is, agreed. Women are a separate species who think about things completely differently; ergo, they can’t say anything that will make me laugh. The debate over women as profound artists runs the same way, and probably includes a lot of similar unexamined borders: you’re less like me, so your art means less to me.

  10. Indeed, great post.

    As a teacher with a pro-feminist commitment, I’ve worked hard to make sure that I don’t end up giving more attention to the young men whom I might be inclined to see as potentiall proteges. I also have to be careful not to take classically feminine self-deprecation at face value; I’ve gotten better at being truly gender-neutral in my teaching, and I think I’ve become a genuinely good mentor to some young women — but it’s taken lots of conscious effort.

  11. Petioning for libraries is not compaining. Nor is seeking redress for the actions of an abusive professor. Wyclef’s point (and mine) was clearly not to

    complain about inequality until it changes

    but rather to refuse to allow discrimination to hold one back from what one wants to do. Wyclef was actually admonishing the students not to complain about discrimination, but to do something to improve one’s own situation.

  12. Petioning for libraries is not compaining. Nor is seeking redress for the actions of an abusive professor. Wyclef’s point (and mine) was clearly not to

    How is it not complaining? You can’t have a petition to address grievances unless you complain about the grievance in question. You go to the people in power and say, “Hey! We don’t have a library!”

    Wyclef was actually admonishing the students not to complain about discrimination, but to do something to improve one’s own situation.

    Right. Something like demanding that other people change.

  13. I have a friend getting her MFA in nonfiction writing. She once expressed her fear of being the worst in her year to a professor. Her professor said that she didn’t have to worry because it was usually a guy who was the worst. Not because men are inherently worse writers but because men tend to have much more confidence and thus don’t feel the need to work as hard as the women. And that man will never know he is the worst one.

  14. A greater variability on most traits? What are you basing this on?

    Sociological, psychological, medical, educational, criminal justice, and genetics literature.

  15. I’ve made it a point, for probably a decade now, to NOT self deprecate on a compliment but to answer much more like the men aboved are described as doing.

    It’s very hard to say “Thanks” when complimented, and once you’ve trained yourself to do that, to just stop there and not continue with some deflection of the compliment.

  16. Look, no one: not the President, not Wyclef, not you, not a man, not a woman, can demand that someone change. The origin of the post was the perception regarding the “suitability” of women in the arts, which is very subjective. If there are obstacles to being an artist, that’s something different. No one removes obstacles by complaining about them. Sure, you might call attention to those obstacles, but you’re still going to have to get down in the dirt and find a way around them.

    Now, if someone thinks the obstacles to being an artist lie in other people’s perceptions (re: “suitability”), then I would seriously question that person’s artistic desire.

  17. When a man shouts at an artist in a classroom, what exactly is she afraid of? What about all the people in other parts of the world who have no classrooms to be intimidated in, and yet make amazing art anyway?

    She’ been conditioned to obey, to dismiss, ignore and disavow her own feelings and her own importance. If this has been the paradigm she has lived in all her life, wouldn’t expecting her to act otherwise be a little demanding to say the least?

    Why dismiss their experience out of hand as not justified’ and/or a thoughtful illustration of women’s common, conditioned behavior; to demur.?

  18. E, in comment # 6, wrote:

    In a creative writing class I once took, all the men seemed to choose “grand” themes and topics like politics, religion, death, etc. What were the women [mostly well to-do housewives, a tad on the golf-playing, snotty side] writing about? Their hate towards their husband’s mistresses.

    While I agree that it may have been tedious to listen to housewives writing about their lives, and perhaps their writing wasn’t really “good”, this comment really bothered me. Good writing often comes from writing about what you know, and women’s spheres of reference are frequently restricted to the house and family. Women are refused access to serious conversations about politics and religion, and they are dismissed and ignored when they try to offer their opinions on them, so why would a woman write a story about such topics? Feminist movements were based on the idea that “the personal is political”, for just this reason – to show that women’s experiences can be as important as seemingly “grander” themes.

    Perhaps those housewives in your class were truly poor writers, or perhaps you couldn’t judge that accurately because you were simply dismissing their experiences because they were not “grand” enough for you to relate to.

    I agree much more with piny’s statement in comment #9 that

    The debate over women as profound artists runs the same way, and probably includes a lot of similar unexamined borders: you’re less like me, so your art means less to me.

    I write about my cats, about riding the bus, about sweeping the floors – if those subjects are unfamiliar or uninteresting to my readers, that does not make my art any less profound.

  19. Tangoman

    Although variability for mathematical ability has recently been a subject in the news, the rest of those traits really need links to be believable.

    alby
    When a man shouts at a woman in a classroom, what is she afraid of? Well, it’s time to hit the wayback machine and think about the role of women in the fine arts (crafts have not generally presented the same hurdle). There were few women painters in the 50s and 60s, though things start to look up with (surprise!) feminism in the 70s. Women were rarely respected as artists, especially if they weren’t some famous guy’s s.o.). So male artists had both aesthetic authority and patricarchal authority. It’s disingenuous (or forgetful) to think that these things aren’t real.

    Oh and though people making amazing art without classrooms? Exactly what’s the gender ratio on those artists? hmm?

  20. rrp,

    Not just mathematical ability. When you look at education, consider the negatives aspects of drop-outs, behavior problems, ADHD, etc.

    As for the other issues – in no particular order, here are some samples that come up in a quick google:

    But unlike the Aka women, the men had greater reproductive variability (e.g., Bokoka male variance = 8.64 while female variance = 5.20). Some Aka men had no children while others had fourteen, whereas all Aka women had at least two children, but none had more than eleven. This pattern of greater male variability is consistent with that found among the !Kung San (Howell 1979) and Yanomamo (Chagnon 1979).

    The key processes in sexual selection (preferential mate choice and intra-sexual competition) can be understood in terms parental investment theory. This suggests that the higher-investing sex (usually female) will tend to become a more limiting resource for the lower investing sex. In bi-parentally investing species (e.g. humans), male parental investment tends to be less than the whole but more than a half of the female investment (Trivers, 1972). This is because unlike males the variable portion of the female’s investment potentially begins from a non-zero threshold. This suggests that there may be greater male than female variability in parental investment in bi-parentally investing species, and consequentially greater male variability in sexually selected attributes. The prediction of greater male variability was tested through meta-analyses of variance ratios for data sets involving sexually selected characteristics (including physical aggression) and those unlikely to have resulted from sexual selection (including anger and self-esteem). Variation was significantly greater for men than women for most of the former data sets (including physical aggression), and was similar for men and women for the latter data sets, broadly supporting the predictions.

    Here is the Amazon search that might help your research efforts.

    Here is a Canadian study:

    Zhang & Manon, 2000 looked at two standardized tests over two years for grades 3, 5, 8 and 10. They do not observe differences in mean performance on the whole, but do observe gaps among the highest and lower 10 percent of students.8 Han & Hoover (1994) note that male performance on standardized tests in the U.S. between 1963 and 1992 tended to be more variable and that differences favoured females at the low end of test results and favoured males at the high end. Fan et. al. (1997) found similar patterns for the National Education Longitudinal Study (NELS) as did Lauzon (1999) in the 1995 Canadian TIMSS.

    Lastly, take a look at prison populations, take a look at successful suicide ratios, see here for incidence data on Parkinson’s and Schizophrenia.

  21. Now, if someone thinks the obstacles to being an artist lie in other people’s perceptions (re: “suitability”), then I would seriously question that person’s artistic desire.

    My boyfriend once told me that he never wondered whether his success as a computer programmer had anything to do with his gender. I was shocked. How can you not think about suitability? It doesn’t mean that you give up; it only means that you recognize the existence of obstacles to success over which you have no control. They’re absolutely there; you can’t just ignore them.

    As a woman–I use that phrase deliberately–I wonder how my experiences in this cultural environment affect my interests, my talents, and my life all the time. It’s quite a privilege not to ever consider these things, because it means they don’t affect you.

  22. Look, no one: not the President, not Wyclef, not you, not a man, not a woman, can demand that someone change. The origin of the post was the perception regarding the “suitability” of women in the arts, which is very subjective. If there are obstacles to being an artist, that’s something different. No one removes obstacles by complaining about them. Sure, you might call attention to those obstacles, but you’re still going to have to get down in the dirt and find a way around them.

    No, the origin of the post was the entrenched sexism that women face: the perception that they cannot be artists that leads to discrimination and hostility. For example, critiques that damage rather than aid their creative process.

    Now, if someone thinks the obstacles to being an artist lie in other people’s perceptions (re: “suitability”), then I would seriously question that person’s artistic desire.

    People tend to act on their perceptions.

  23. Now, if someone thinks the obstacles to being an artist lie in other people’s perceptions (re: “suitability”), then I would seriously question that person’s artistic desire.

    Again, art is communication, so to be commercially viable (even outside of the commercial gallery scene commerce plays a role in what art is supported and shown) it needs to have an audience. Art is neither made nor consumed in a vacuum. The “starving artist” working in obscurity is a myth supported by a few random successes.

  24. While I agree that it may have been tedious to listen to housewives writing about their lives, and perhaps their writing wasn’t really “good”, this comment really bothered me. Good writing often comes from writing about what you know, and women’s spheres of reference are frequently restricted to the house and family. Women are refused access to serious conversations about politics and religion, and they are dismissed and ignored when they try to offer their opinions on them, so why would a woman write a story about such topics? Feminist movements were based on the idea that “the personal is political”, for just this reason – to show that women’s experiences can be as important as seemingly “grander” themes.

    …Yeah, I missed this one earlier. See my previous post about male vs. female subjects for writing. As I remember it, most of the men in my creative writing classes wrote either thinly-veiled smut, craptacular Star Wars (or Ender’s Game) ripoffs, or some combination of the two. I feel this way not because this is true of men in general, male creative writers in general, or even of the men in my creative-writing class. I feel this way because those pieces of writing were so irritating–and long!–that they blotted out everything else.

    This kind of dichotomy just doesn’t wash, particularly if you’re going to attempt to argue that talking-heads plots aren’t interesting, or that they cannot serve perfectly well to tell the larger stories. The Good Soldier. Madame Bovary. Jude the Obscure. As I Lay Dying. The Remains of the Day. Enemies: A Love Story. Everything is Illuminated. Love in the Time of Cholera. Lolita. The House of the Spirits. I Stand Here Ironing. To Kill a Mockingbird. The Shawl. Most best writing can’t be sorted into “political” and “personal.”

  25. Again, art is communication, so to be commercially viable (even outside of the commercial gallery scene commerce plays a role in what art is supported and shown) it needs to have an audience. Art is neither made nor consumed in a vacuum. The “starving artist” working in obscurity is a myth supported by a few random successes.

    I would add to this that creativity is communication; so’s development.

  26. The kind of elaboration on your work that can happen after a good critique. Most good artists have some idea of what they want to do. Some good artists are total loners who cannot develop in communities. Most, however, do well when they can talk to other creative people and get ideas. Egon Schiele and Gustav Klimt, for example. When that kind of community does not exist for you, it can be very difficult to get the kind of perspective on your art that will allow you to take it further. Being shut out of critiques–or, even worse, having them turned into punishment for daring to create–is a concrete loss. It’s not just about not being able to sell your work; it’s about not being able to vet your work.

  27. Ok, different stages in an artist’s career. A support community that enables the artist to develop their work, then an audience that recieves the work (and provides money to support the artist through showing and selling the work, grants, etc).

    Seems to me that the second phase is where institutionalized sexism is most apparant and having the bigger impact on silencing women artists. It’s well and fine to make work in a vacuum, but if you’re talking about being a “profound” artist that makes an impact on the larger art world (or better yet breaks out of that bubble and reaches through to mainstream culture), that’s the boys club. (though thankfully not a straight boys club)

  28. Seems to me that the second phase is where institutionalized sexism is most apparant and having the bigger impact on silencing women artists. It’s well and fine to make work in a vacuum, but if you’re talking about being a “profound” artist that makes an impact on the larger art world (or better yet breaks out of that bubble and reaches through to mainstream culture), that’s the boys club. (though thankfully not a straight boys club)

    I agree with this in terms of sexism being most apparent, but I’m not sure I’m communicating clearly about the role of critique and support. I guess I’m saying that many people don’t make work in a vaccuum. And that it’s not exactly about having help for drafted work or work in process, but about having a climate that allows for inspiration. In other words, not that your ideas will all be locked up in your head or your garage, but that they might not ever fully form without some other interested people around you to bring them out. It’s not exactly artists shut out of a community, but people who never get to the point of being artists. Dropouts.

  29. Sorry, I completely understand what you’re saying. I just didn’t address it because I see many fewer problems with that phase – I’ve seen that there are supportive communities for women artists (that does not in any way dismiss your valid points about the silencing of women in a sexist group setting. Those mechanics are really important and cannot be repeated enough – understanding that women need to be encouraged to speak out in a group and that men need to be directed (and we need to make an effort ourselves to listen more and talk less) are really important to instructors.

    I agree that most artists (I would venture just about all professional or full-time artists) work in a community where they develop their ideas in collaboration and/or dialog with other artists. I think it’s horrible that you’re seeing that happen in your class, and I think it’s a failure of the instructor to moderate the discussion in a constructive way.

  30. Sorry, I completely understand what you’re saying. I just didn’t address it because I see many fewer problems with that phase – I’ve seen that there are supportive communities for women artists (that does not in any way dismiss your valid points about the silencing of women in a sexist group setting. Those mechanics are really important and cannot be repeated enough – understanding that women need to be encouraged to speak out in a group and that men need to be directed (and we need to make an effort ourselves to listen more and talk less) are really important to instructors.

    Sure. I suppose I’m thinking this through more for the sake of how women artists should just do something (as if they haven’t). It’s not that this dynamic functions merely to silence or exclude talented artists, not exactly on that level. I think it can also keep people from really getting started. You can’t participate, and eventually you got nothin’. It’s not about weakness or strength of character, it’s about developing in the same climate as most creative people do.

  31. In every community I’ve lived in there has been a strong community of women artists (sometimes separatist lesbians, which is problematic, but a different topic). Sometimes that community is hard to find, so it’s natural to turn to educational institutions, where you’re more likely to encounter typical classroom sexism. Especially in the beginning it’s important that an artist community is supportive, so yeah, it’s a serious problem.

    It would be interesting to see a directory of women-oriented art spaces, though then how to you reach out to women with internalized sexism that need it the most?

  32. It would be interesting to see a directory of women-oriented art spaces, though then how to you reach out to women with internalized sexism that need it the most?

    Well, probably at the night class and high school level, so that these women can start getting a portfolio together before too many people tell them they suck. It’s much easier to internalize sexism if you have no body of work with which to counter the idea that you aren’t really an artist.

  33. Good post. I particularly identified with the automatic self-deprecation and self-doubt in regard to compliments and praise. It’s so hard to turn off.

  34. This made me think of my mother, sort of … She started a mentoring program at her school for girls interested in science (and to a lesser degree math), to encourage them to persue it in college. For whatever reason, some boys wanted to join this club too. So she let them, with a very important, written-in-stone rule: The second they tried to shift the focus from women in science and math to themselves, they were out. Her reasoning for this was because the “normal” science and math classes and clubs already mostly focused on the boys, because after all, men are still considered the “default” for careers in math and science.

    It’s apparently worked out really well, because the boys she hasn’t kicked out yet are learning that sometimes it’s not all about them, and it helps the girls learn to assert themselves and not be afraid when boys are present to be smart and thoughtful and interested and outspoken. Most of them do go on to major in sciences and math … and then come back to talk to and mentor Mom’s new batch.

  35. Er, as for the arts, I’m a stagehand (electrics mostly, which is traditionally male … unlike, say, being the wardrobe mistress), and if that counts, my suitability gets questioned all the time. After all, I’m a woman, so it must mean I’m afraid of heights/can’t lift a 2 pound light/can’t keep track of circuits/might overload a dimmer because math is hard/get PMS and piss off my coworkers. And my favourite, I’m only there because the person filling the call list wanted a token pretty girl on site for … some reason.

    To be fair, I experienced most of this working on the East Coast in New Jersey and New York with mostly all-male-but-me crews. It’s a lot better here in the Bay Area, mostly (I suspect) because there seem to be a lot more women doing electrics and carpentry, so I’m not nearly as out of the ordinary as I used to be.

  36. Interesting. I’m currently in a masters program in architecture, and I don’t think I’ve noticed any differences between how the women and the men present themselves, respond to compliments or criticism, or to how the instructors or critics talk to us, but I’m going to start paying more attention. Perhaps the fact that most of my classmates are in their 20s and 30s has something to do with it? I haven’t noticed any obvious sexism in the way the instructors deal with us, unless it is sexist for one of them to have noted (to another architect), “Over half my students in this class are women, so it would be really great if I could get more women to come in and critique the students’ work.”

    A lot of my male classmates do that stupid self-deprecating thing, but so do a lot of my female classmates. I have been trying hard not to do it, myself, although I do (sometimes) consciously say, “thanks, but I’m a little disappointed with how this other thing came out,” in the hopes that remarking on that will lead the other person to offer some suggestions. I guess I could be a little more assertive in asking directly though, huh?

    Also: I have yet to have a Jury from Hell, one that totally trashes the students’ work and leaves people stunned and in tears. I think this is partially due to NOT being at a top-notch school which will be inviting big name, big ego architects who get off on saying, “Quit now and save yourself further disgrace,” and partly due to a larger trend in architectural education to give useful critiques, instead of just picking on people.

  37. I take art classes at my local museum, but so far all the teachers I’ve had have been women, and the classes have been predominantly female as well (with the exception of my figure drawing and painting course.)

    I am more likely to respond to a compliment – to my art, at least, with “Thanks, I’ve been trying…and been happy with…” but some of the women in the classes with me – most of them of an earlier generation than mine – are much more self-deprecating, even when they do painstakingly-detailed, very impressive work.

    I’ve also had teachers encourage me to go to graduate school for art. I got my Bachelor’s degree in creative writing, and looking back I can’t off-hand remember any stark gender differences in the subject matter chosen by my fellow students, in fiction OR poetry. I just know that there were very few students interested in writing anything other than “literary” fiction, who probably were less than thrilled when I brought in a science fiction or fantasy story for them to workshop. But I always tried to tackle big themes in my work.

    Strangely enough, the writers I remember being the worst happened to be women; however, I think about 2 in 3 students in the creative writing program at my school were women. It seemed that, at least at that level, writing for a living was seen as a feminine pursuit.

  38. Also: I have yet to have a Jury from Hell, one that totally trashes the students’ work and leaves people stunned and in tears. I think this is partially due to NOT being at a top-notch school which will be inviting big name, big ego architects who get off on saying, “Quit now and save yourself further disgrace,” and partly due to a larger trend in architectural education to give useful critiques, instead of just picking on people.

    Well, I’ve heard that that’s getting better, too. People are realizing that verbal abuse does not a good critique make, and are attempting to make criticism constructive (try this, think about this, work with this, instead of, this sucks).

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