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Rescued from Caperton’s Recycling Bin: “You’re kidding me! I’ve never been asked that question before.”

Caperton

Periodically, I get around to clearing off my desk and flattening out crumpled magazine clippings and saying, “Huh. Look at that.” Today: Marie Claire‘s Carrick Mollenkamp interviews Sallie Krawcheck, “[o]ne of Wall Street’s most powerful women” who “was ousted from her job running Bank of America’s wealth management division last fall.”

“Taking the Fall–Again: Sallie Krawcheck,” Marie Claire, May 2012

MC: Your career has been marked by early-morning starts and constant travel. Do you have regrets about how you raised your two children, now 18 and 15?

SK: Not really. I try not to spend too much time obsessing over what I can’t change. Long ago I came to the view that kids have two parents for a reason. When they were toddlers and screamed, “Mommy!” they meant a parent of either sex. My son was never disappointed when my husband [financier Gary Appel] entered the room. There was always someone there for the medium-important to very-important range of things–just not always for the not-important stuff. But when my daughter played Annie in Annie Jr. and there were four performances, I was there for four performances.

…

MC: Why do so few women make it to the top in finance?

SK: That’s a loaded question. The facts are that women are half the workforce. We have about 15 percent of the senior roles in corporate America–as CEOs, on executive committees, on boards. On Wall Street, that’s a low single digit. We are significantly underrepresented there. But if you look around Wall Street and corporate America, we’re putting women on diversity councils; we’re putting them in mentoring programs; we’re giving them special leadership training, telling them how to ask for promotions–but we are not promoting them. My goodness, we’re just making women busier. There needs to be a rethink about how to make them successful in these organizations.

MC: What should a woman working on Wall Street wear?

SK: You’re kidding me! I’ve never been asked that question before. Let me put it this way: I’ve thought a lot about the issue of stereotypes, particularly on Wall Street. I can’t count the number of times I have seen men slam something on a table, even throw something. You sort of do a mental eye roll and move on. I can count on one hand–on one finger–the number of tantrums I’ve seen a woman have. As she was having it, I remember thinking to myself, Bitch. So if I’m having that view, it’s hard to imagine that someone else isn’t having the same view. Women need to operate in narrower emotional channels than men. But it doesn’t mean you need to be an emotional soldier. Now to your question, what does one wear? Look to what your boss is wearing. If he or she dresses conservatively, do the same.

Full interview available online

28 thoughts on Rescued from Caperton’s Recycling Bin: “You’re kidding me! I’ve never been asked that question before.”

  2. I appreciate her honesty and candidness about her reaction to her female colleague’s tantrum. While I personally can’t relate to that reaction, I suspect it’s not uncommon.

    Also, the following quote brought back a memory, and I’d like to share a story.

    Women need to operate in narrower emotional channels than men. But it doesn’t mean you need to be an emotional soldier.

    One of my colleagues was recently diagnosed with a potentially life-threatening illness. Rather than immediately take some time off to take care of her health, she insisted on sticking around and finishing a major project she was working on. The project was very demanding and already testing her last nerve. It had a deadline that absolutely could not be missed, with millions of dollars at stake. Anyway, she had a mini-meltdown in her cubicle in the final minutes. This involved very audible crying and being very curtly dismissive toward the two people who offered to help her, myself included.

    This woman is generally very competent at her job, and she also happens to be one of the funniest, warmest, and most genuine people I have ever known, much less worked with. The combination of excessive project stress and not knowing how long she had to live clearly pushed her over the edge into a mini-meltdown.

    What I found interesting – and disturbing – was the reaction from two separate female colleagues. One emailed me from a few yards away to recommend that I help calm my colleague down, because the meltdown sounded really bad. I wrote back and explained about this woman’s recent diagnosis (explaining that I wouldn’t normally share someone else’s news in that manner, save for the awkward circumstances), and how I suspected that it had a lot to do with the ongoing meltdown. Whereas I was expecting a response filled with understanding, the reply I received made it clear that this other person was unimpressed and un-empathetic.

    Worse yet, a female colleague on our same small team had very harsh words about the mini-meltdown. She waited until the colleague-in-meltdown-mode went home for the evening, and then she angrily ranted to me about how inappropriate and unprofessional the meltdown was (let’s not even go into how inappropriate it was to angrily trash a colleague to a superior team member). No amount of pointing out that – a) hello! on some level, meltdown-woman is worried that she MIGHT BE DYING, and this was probably resulting in a huge amount of additional stress for her, and b) omg, just about anyone else would have dumped the project on us and taken time off, so maybe cut her some slack – seemed to register. And the ranting didn’t include any concern that the mini-meltdown might damage our colleague’s career. Nope – this was merely about this person’s selfish reaction to another human being’s distress.

    I don’t know whether I’m “right” or “wrong” about my take on this, and I don’t know whether this is just as likely to happen in non-corporate environments, but I really don’t want to live in a world where people treat each other this way. F*ck the corporate performance bullshit. We’re all people, human beings – and life and health and happiness is far more important than “acting professional.” I’m disgusted that a potentially-dying person (thankfully, my colleague is alive and well and now thriving again) can’t even be afforded some wiggle room. Perhaps my own struggle to completely obscure my PTSD symptoms while on the job has made me more able to empathize, but good grief.

    …anyway, I’ve seen far too much of this expectation of “professionalism” = “emotional soldier” in my corporate experience. I don’t adhere to it, and I’ve still made progress in my career (relatively speaking, of course, as I am a woman in corporate America), but IMHO far too many people adhere to and/or enforce this mentality to the detriment of everyone involved. (And now I’m going to search to see if there’s a Harvard Business Review article, or similar, that backs up this notion.)

    1. Well, yeah, and the flip side of that is why are abusive tantrums from men considered at all appropriate? Perhaps we are socialized to keep the wrong emotions indulged as opposed to restrained? I think it would be a lovely thing if empathy was as acceptable as anger.

      1. I like how she brushed the questions aside and brought up points that pretty much shut down the stupid questions mobile.

        I am often disturbed by how often it is frowned upon in corporate America (I work there) that a woman have an outburst or act emotionally (she then gets labeled as emotional and unstable), but men are free to raise voices, berate, and target other people with their own bullying and emotional instability.

        In fact, most women that are high on the ladder in my company are pretty darned cold. Not that they are evil or anything, just aloof, and I believe that they have been forced to become that way in order to succeed.

        I’ve seen men that are angry, abusive, loud, arrogant, selfish, etc. and it is all labeled as “passionate” by themselves and others. Even though, if you talk to people privately, they will tell you what assholes they think that those people are.

        I had a review at the beginning of this year when I was 7 months pregnant, stressed out, busting my ass without direction or support, and getting questioned every step of the way. The stress of the entire situation caused me to literally cry in the middle of the review because it did not go well. I think that the culmination of everything hit me at once and I finally could not withhold my feelings anymore. I still feel bad about having said “episode”, but after being treated poorly and dealing with a difficult pregnancy, I was entitled to my moment of doneness. I’m still not sure how this will affect my career and my boss is actually an understanding person, but I cannot believe how much we are emotionally pushed to take and not show that anything affects us as humans.

      2. I hate how men are always insisting they are less emotional, without admitting that “angry” is an emotion! They think if they’re not crying they’re not being emotional.

        1. Yes, me too! When I saw I’m an ’emotional’ person, I don’t just mean that I’m not afraid to cry–I’m also a person who yells and gets angry easily. I’m working on it, but its something I have struggled with since childhood. I’ve heard my sister refer to my father as “emotionless” and I had to remind her that he actually is extremely emotional, but it wasn’t until he was in middle age that those emotions were expressed in ways more diverse than rage and contrition.

        2. That is such a huge point. Men show emotion all the time! They are just socialized to show different emotions than women are. A guy who’s lost his temper is no less out of control than a woman who starts crying. Heck, when I’m angry, I cry (which drives me nuts).

    2. That’s an awful story. It’s telling, too, that it was women who were complaining about the “meltdown.” Oppressive structures enlist the oppressed to do the policing and depend on such interactions to ensure compliance with the restrictive behavior codes. I’ve been in those situations, too, where I’ve caught myself thinking “well, there she goes, hysterical woman stereotype in action, making us all look incompetent” and had to really work to stop, backtrack, and examine where this thinking was coming from.

      And I’m not even in the corporate world (I feel nonprofits and CBOs tend to if not encourage, then tolerate some forms of emotional processing); I can only imagine that the pressure on women in the corporate world to project “competence” is immense. And, of course, who defines “competence” and how is a whole other can of worms.

  3. I’m wondering if Sallie Krawcheck was being sarcasting is saying she’d never been asked that question before.

  4. You’re damned either way, I think. Women who aren’t “emotional” get criticised as “ice queens” (and worse) in work place situations.

  5. Interestingly enough, I think the question of what to wear is a really important one, but is to be asked of an HR specialist, not a wealth manager (god it’s hard to be sympathetic to someone with that job title.)

    In my 20’s when I worked in marketing, I moved from being a Marketing Coordinator at a hip downtown PR firm to being a Marketing Manager at a law firm with it’s main office in New Jersey. For six months I thought I was dressing perfectly well, especially since I am extremely neat, and always got random compliments on something I was wearing being ‘cool’ or ‘groovy’ or some sort of variation on that. Six months into the job I was sat down and given a full lecture and written warning about wearing inappropriate clothing to a law firm (red shoes apparently are a no-no for men.) I ended up leaving the firm when I started working for Comedy Central in their writing department, where my clothes were not an issue. However I’ve still got three shit-brown suits that I haven’t worn in over 10 years hanging in my closet.

    1. I had, at one point, five separate wardrobes at home. I had the usual slacking-at-home wardrobe; the boring suit/blouse/modest pumps invisible-officer-worker wardrobe from when I was a paralegal right out of college; the trendy wardrobe from when I worked for a fashion magazine (which of course is two sizes smaller than any of the others); the nice-casual wardrobe that was appropriate for my current creative job when I first got here; and the business wardrobe I had to acquire when they changed the dress code because they felt business-y clothes are necessary to convey professionalism. (For the men in the office, that transition seemed to be about Buying More Khakis than anything else, but for the women it was a little more involved.) Culling them all down to something that would fit in my closet took a full month, two trips to the clothing bank, one trip to consignment, one trip to Our Working Closet, and four boxes set aside for a yard sale that will probably never happen.

      And dude, all I want to be is a writer. With a varied and elegant collection of PJs.

    2. It was a more relevant question about 10-15 years ago, when the idea that Women Can Wear Pants To Work and Still Do Their Jobs was taking hold of the more conservative precincts such as law, banking, financial and business.

      Granted, there’s been a recent return from business casual to more business wear, but that could have been covered by asking about dress code.

      1. It was a more relevant question about 10-15 years ago, when the idea that Women Can Wear Pants To Work and Still Do Their Jobs was taking hold of the more conservative precincts such as law, banking, financial and business.

        I work in a conservative industry where lack of pantyhose is enough to win yourself a reputation as a slattern sleeping her way to the top. Today. In 2012.

        No additional commentary, just OMG.

    3. I have always liked your fashion sense, Steve. I scandalized my grad school department by not only wearing red mary janes to my job interview, but by deciding not to die my hair back to all brown (I have two bright red streaks in it). Fortunately, I was interviewing with a department that could not have cared less.

  6. Four small stories from (and/or relating to) my transition process seven years ago at the small/medium sized New York City law firm where I’ve worked for the last 17 years:

    1. At the meeting where I informed my two bosses that I was transgender and intended to transition about 8 months later, one of them said: “Is it OK if I still yell at you after your transition? Or are you going to start crying or something?” He was only half-joking (ha, ha, so funny); I think I just smiled. He has more than taken advantage of what I’m sure he took as my implicit consent. And I have, so far, managed (just barely) to avoid tears. Or walking out of the room in the midst of a tongue-lashing, except for the one time he called me a “bastard.” (Hey, if you’re going to curse me, at least use a properly-gendered term and call me a bitch, you know?)

    2. When I jumped the gun and had my ears pierced about a month before my official transition date, and so was presenting a guy with earrings, the same boss said: “either be a man or be a woman; none of this half-way stuff.”

    3. My first summer living and working as myself, at a firm where the only other female attorney at the time was significantly older and dressed quite formally year round, and the only rule was “business casual,” I inquired of the firm administrator (who, fortunately, is a woman; I can’t imagine asking this of a man) whether it was permissible to go barelegged and wear sandals in the summer, or, on days when I wore a dress or skirt, was required to wear hose and closed-toe shoes. She actually had to undertake a lengthy process of consulting with other people on her law firm administrators’ email list, before giving me permission. It was unbelievably embarrassing.

    4. Male lawyers can get away on a regular basis with being far more disheveled — rumpled, stained suits or pants, shirts with frayed cuffs and collars, etc., all of which can be tolerated as the hallmark of an eccentric genius — than female lawyers, who are expected to be impeccably put together at all times. Although there are days when I rebel by showing up at work in an old pair of pants and wearing sneakers, and never bothering to change into an appropriate pair of shoes.

  7. I have a comment in moderation with a few stories reflecting the differing sartorial and behavioral expectations for male and female lawyers at one New York City law firm. A subject on which I am, I believe, uniquely qualified to comment.

    1. The ways in which stereotypically behavior of men versus plays out in attorney land is very interesting, isn’t it? What is often considered good, aggressive lawyering by men is still often considered bitchy/nasty/unseemly in women. The same also seems to be true so often of managerial behavior by men versus that by women. Men can swear and yell and get in the face of opposing counsel or an underling associate (or even a fellow partner) and it rarely is seen as being a bad member of the firm or as a being a bad attorney. But if women do it, get ready for your pillorying.

      I do think that that the appropriate/inappropriate dress issues is a bit more regional. Here in Chicago, which is generally a more casual place for working or living, the dress codes in corporate and legal settings are often more on the casual side. But the East Coast/NYC seems to still be much more formal.

      I admit to being quite curious to see what your personal perspective is on this, Donna.

      1. I agree, @Lolagirl. Chicago seems to be much more ‘business casual’ and dress was not a huge deal, although most of us female associates were very thin and pretty well dressed (the thin thing is an observation that I’m sure has deeper issues underlying it). When I worked in Chicago, one of the partners I worked for (who was, incidentally, pretty loud and “aggressive”) pretty regularly wore sneakers around the office–up until she went to court, of course. And her suits were bright colors like purple, pink, etc. She used to pace her office with her sneakers on, talking on speaker phone and biting her nails. She was pretty widely seen as an excellent attorney with a ‘colorful’ personality and sense of style. Although she definitely almost made me cry on a few occasions and she was intimidating to be sure, I’m glad there was a woman partner like her at the firm. She had a powerful vibe about her and she seemed to be so strong and unapologetic about what she needed from everyone.

        Anyway, I would also say that I’ve heard from friends practicing in the South (Georgia) that skirt suits are still expected on interviews and in court.

        1. I would also say that I’ve heard from friends practicing in the South (Georgia) that skirt suits are still expected on interviews and in court.

          Wow. In New York City, I believe that the very last judge who required women attorneys appearing in his courtroom to wear skirts or dresses was forced to change his policies close to 30 years ago, around the time I began as a lawyer. Although I don’t think I’ve ever appeared in court at any time in the last 7 years wearing anything other than a skirt suit, simply because there’s something about wearing a suit with pants, in any setting, that brings back bad memories for me. So I’ve never worn one to the office, either. I wear pants to the office often, just not with a jacket or as part of a suit.

        2. Just thought I would clarify further, I’m pretty sure Donna’s a partner at her firm and I was wondering what she might think about men/lawyering behavior from the associate v partner perspective.

          Sarah, the partner you describe sounds familiar, as in I may have enountered her when I was doing litigation work. Was she plaintiff side or defense side?

        3. I’m pretty sure Donna’s a partner at her firm

          Very sadly for my finances, no — I’ve never been “partnership material” for a variety of reasons (particularly a lack of interest or talent in generating business), so I’m one of those middle-aged perpetual non-partners one finds. “Counsel” rather than an associate, but with no real difference from an associate in terms of the organizational hierarchy.

        4. “Counsel” rather than an associate, but with no real difference from an associate in terms of the organizational hierarchy.

          Surely there’s still time for at least an ‘Of’?

        5. I would also say that I’ve heard from friends practicing in the South (Georgia) that skirt suits are still expected on interviews and in court.

          Uh, yeah. Down here in Atlanta it’s an unspoken interviewing rule that if you are presenting as/assumed to be female, you’d better show up wearing a skirt suit, plain pantyhose, and fashionable-but-not-too-sexy heels, or you’ve blown the interview before you open your mouth. For just about any “professional” level job, not just formal/conservative areas like law, either. It’s ridiculous. (I could go on and on about Southern “rules,” ugh.)

  8. This isn’t a story from executive-land, but I vividly remember temping in an IT department where I found the boomer-age women lovely, great to work with, supportive….but when a newer hire cried at work sympathy was nil. You do *not* cry at work *ever* was the consensus….

  9. @Rachel W. …yeah…I can see the logic of that. They were coaching the newbies about being seen to be vulnerable and less then professional. Where are the mentors agreeing that you do not *yell* at work *ever*, though? Because it’s okay for men to yell at work all the damn time. All the times I’ve cried at work…have been because I was really, really angry/frustrated with something/someone. And I’m pretty sure a big part of that is my having been taught that it is wrong FOR ME to yell. Something is either okay or not okay. Half the working world shouldn’t get to vent on colleagues and underlings while the other has visible expressions of emotion immediately equated with incompetence/lack of leadership ability regardless of other working abilities

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