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Shorter Daniel Fincke: “TONE.”

Daniel Fincke asks: “Do marginalized people need to be insulting in order to be empowered”?

Caperton replies: Have you tried asking a marginalized person?

Over the summer, Daniel Fincke of ethics/atheist/religion blog Camels With Hammers (which, full disclosure, had never really stumbled across my field of interest until today) explicated his comments policy (which he totally gets to do), which includes banning insults like “asshole” and “douchebag” (which is totally within his rights), for which he received some pushback (which happens sometimes), against which he defended himself by pondering whether marginalized people working to defend their rights might not be a little more effective if they were a little more polite.

The specific argument to which Fincke was responding noted that words like “asshole” and “douchebag” really do have a place in social-justice rhetoric, and that sometimes it’s the only weapon available to a marginalized person. In part:

The creators, active perpetrators, and passive beneficiaries of unjust norms all have the luxury of treating their behaviors and ideas and institutions as dispassionate matters. Members of marginalized groups need to have the right to shock and offend the complacent privileged classes with language that defiantly unsettles them and warns them that if they do not start taking the marginalized groups’ basic humanity and basic needs seriously they will start being the ones who suffer great social costs.

In response, Fincke acknowledges that disempowered people are disempowered, that they should never be forced to abide by the rules of an unjust system, and that Martin Luther King, Jr., was disobedient without sacrificing civility, which through the wonder of television won the civil rights movement. However, “[w]ithin justly and ethically carried out debates, people should feel no need to defy the rules. … Rules of discourse that require everyone to be treated with basic civility do not put any one [sic] at an inherent disadvantage and so they [sic] members of marginalized groups do not need to take recourse in incivil language to correct for any such disadvantage.”

1. There has to be some kind of Godwinesque law about privileged white guys invoking the name of Martin Luther King, Jr., to convince marginalized people to behave themselves.

2. Show me a “justly and ethically carried out debate” that fully accommodates a marginalized group’s disadvantage.

3. Show me a marginalizing party whose frames, dog whistles, and outright aggressions aren’t more uncivil than any name I could possibly call them.

Fincke feels that marginalized groups have plenty of civil recourse available to them without getting nasty about it.

[W]ithin the realm of civil discourse, superficially polite but actually harmful language can be spotted and queried, with no recourse to insults necessary. And there are two major reasons for this. One is that marginalized groups already do have powerful weapons available in the forms of harsh moral condemnatory language specifically designed to stigmatize bigotry. In our culture, bigotry is considered one of the greatest evils. Even many racists, for decades now, have tried to refuse the label. In just the last twenty years I have heard some fundamentalist Christians who think sexually active gays are sinners move from denying the existence of homophobia to acknowledging its existence but denying they suffer from it. Neither do misogynists proudly accept themselves to be misogynists.

While I think ethically we should be careful not to carelessly toss around charges that others have bigoted characters (rather than that they said or did a particular thing that has racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, etc. connotations), the threat is implicit in our discourse. When someone civilly say something that has the potential to reinforce unjust social systems and silence or otherwise Other a marginalized person or group, our standards of civility allow for that person to be called out with probing questions that have equally hostile connotations. [emphasis mine]

So what, then? We shouldn’t use inflammatory language because “misogynist” should be sufficient to shame the misogynists who deny being misogynists? It’s just a matter of asking the right questions, because “bigot” will have them stumbling over their feet to convince us otherwise.

Here’s the thing about charges of bigotry: They’re easily pushed aside with the word but. Three letters can change the course of the conversation. “I’m not homophobic, but I believe that gay people shouldn’t be allowed to adopt.” And unless you’re being interviewed by Samantha Bee, the interlocutor never responds, “Are you sure you’re not homophobic?” I’m not homophobic, but is sufficient to fuel a respectful and reasonable discussion, as if but takes homophobia off the table and makes the argument automatically worthy of examination. “I’m not a misogynist, but I think society is collapsing because women aren’t focused on being good mothers.” Sure, let’s talk about those shitty moms. “I’m not a racist, but.” Oh, well, that settles it, then.

Fincke does have a point when he says,

We should call people out for jokes that contribute to social marginalization. We should query people about whether they are implying harmful stereotypes are true when they casually allude to them. We should constantly be drawing attention to all the invidious assumptions that might be loaded into each others’ beliefs and practices and be asking those people to either renounce those implications, justify them as true or good, or face fair moral and social consequences if they neither renounce them nor prove them true or good. [emphasis mine]

That’s absolutely true, for all cases where “we” are members of the non-marginalized group. That civil approach to discourse is perfectly applicable when “we” are sufficiently privileged that the offending parties will hear “us” and listen to “us” without the need for shouting. Those of us who have the power to speak civilly and still be heard have not only the ability but also the responsibility to use it. If we have that power.

Women, however (just for example), have been speaking politely since time immemorial. You might not have noticed this, because people who speak politely are easy to overlook. People who have been invisible don’t become visible simply by saying, “Pardon me, but I’m afraid I have to take issue with some of your assertions.” (Just imagine how many rapes, assaults, and murders could have been avoided if that were the case.) The ability to change hearts and minds through civil speech is reserved for those who are listened to when they open their mouths.

Moreover, civility from the marginalized doesn’t guarantee civility from the marginalizers. Think back a few months to Sandra Fluke. Her civil, reasoned testimony in front of House Democrats earned her the brand of “slut” and “prostitute,” explicitly from professional blowhard (whoops!) Rush Limbaugh and implicitly from numerous other “respectable” news sources. And while Limbaugh was excoriated for it, the absurdly named (oops!) Erick Erickson suffered no consequences for implying basically the same thing. (Retired Vitalis model and insufferable godbag [dammit!] Mitt Romney only said that it’s not the language that [he] would have used,” leaving us to assume he’d use other words to call her a slut.) If that incivility on their part were enough to discredit them and tip the debate in your favor, that would be swell. Also swell? Having a pony.

It’s at the end, though, where Fincke unashamedly cribs from “Derailing for Dummies” and reminds us that denigrating and dismissing others is what their side does, and that “trying to insult people into agreement or submission” makes us just as bad as they are. Because, evidently, calling ignorant douchebag Todd Akin an ignorant douchebag (rats) is on a level with fighting to take control of a woman’s body, and is somehow trying to force my beliefs on him when instead I should be laying out my logical and reasoned arguments against the implication that I’m just a walking homunculus carrier and should make lemonade out of rape-lemons. And I’m sorry, but fuck that. Fuck it all the way. I know a malignant fucknose when I see one.

Oh, bother.


323 thoughts on Shorter Daniel Fincke: “TONE.”

  1. Excellent post!!

    I’d also like to point out to Mr. Fincke that Martin Luther King wouldn’t have been able to accomplish nearly as much if it hadn’t been for Malcolm X, Stokely Carmichael, the Black Panthers, and other folks who weren’t nearly so civil.

    Also, In my experience as a transgender person, I’ve found that when someone is being truly offensive about that aspect of myself, they aren’t going to change their ways regardless of whether I respond to them civilly or not so civilly. But if I’m forceful and rude back to them I’ll maintain my sense of self respect going forward. . .whereas if I’m civil back to them I’ll walk away feeling like a coward and a fool.

    1. Martin Luther King wouldn’t have been able to accomplish nearly as much if it hadn’t been for Malcolm X, Stokely Carmichael, the Black Panthers, and other folks who weren’t nearly so civil.

      THIS. Sometimes I think – and feel free to tell me if I’m being too cynical – that marginalising groups deliberately pick out the “best-behaved” (i.e. most kyriarchally compliant) marginalised person to hold up as an example, simply to enable this kind of tone argument bullshit. King over Malcolm X. And, to get way more Indian, Gandhi over Bhagat Singh, Tagore (poet focused on reclaiming Indian culture, deeply spiritual) over Bharatiyar (fiery feminist socialist poet, better quality poetry IMO) even though they were producing at the same time. Etc, etc, etc.

      1. Actually, I think you’re being just the right amount of cynical. That is what marginalizing groups do, seems to me.

        And also, I love poetry, and I’d never heard of Bharatiyar. He sounds pretty badass though. I want to check out his stuff.

      2. Excellent points. And despite being “the best behaved”, MLK & Ghandi were STILL assassinated. Go figure.

        Also while MLK advocated civil disobedience & noncompliance, his rhetoric was nevertheless cutting and righteously outraged.

        “Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed. ”
        “A riot is the language of the unheard.”
        “America has given the Negro people a bad check which has come back marked ‘insufficient funds.’ But we refuse to believe that the bank of justice is bankrupt. We refuse to believe that there are insufficient funds in the great vaults of opportunity of this nation. So we have come to cash this check — a check that will give us upon demand the riches of freedom and the security of justice.”

        These are not the statement of someone content to play along. These are also NOT the statements MSM quote on MLK day. Funny that.

    2. “Martin Luther King wouldn’t have been able to accomplish nearly as much if it hadn’t been for Malcolm X, Stokely Carmichael, the Black Panthers, and other folks who weren’t nearly so civil.”

      I don’t think that’s because they won so many people over. It’s because people were so afraid of what they represented, that they were more willing to listen to King’s message of peaceful change. They were the boogey men who made King and the ACLU in a palatable alternative.

    3. “Martin Luther King wouldn’t have been able to accomplish nearly as much if it hadn’t been for Malcolm X, Stokely Carmichael, the Black Panthers, and other folks who weren’t nearly so civil.”

      I don’t think that’s because they won so many people over. It’s because people were so afraid of what they represented, that they were more willing to listen to King’s message of peaceful change. They were the boogey men who made King and the NAACP in a palatable alternative.

    4. Martin Luther King wouldn’t have been able to accomplish nearly as much if it hadn’t been for Malcolm X, Stokely Carmichael, the Black Panthers, and other folks who weren’t nearly so civil.

      Don’t forget the riots of the 1960’s.

      White, middle-class people were freaked out by seeing them on TV, and there were definitely deep, if seldom spoken, fears that those scenes might be repeated in their own neighborhoods.

      Before the riots, I had the definite impression that most white people were looking for a way to keep the “negroes” quiet without actually having to change anything. Afterwards, they were thinking of how to avoid violence (directed at them.)

      1. I think you have the timing backward on that one. By the time the riots reached their most violent in ’67 and ’68, the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act had already been passed, not to mention the most important Supreme Court decisions on segregation.

        What the riots did accomplish was to empower Nixon and the backlash.

      2. Also, the violence wasn’t directed toward “them.” If you look back on the archival footage, you won’t see white neighborhoods on fire.

    5. Great points. Also, Bobby Rush to Barack Obama. The German Social Democratic Party to Bismarckian old-age social insurance. Vladimir Lenin to John Maynard Keynes.

    6. I’d also like to point out to Mr. Fincke that Martin Luther King wouldn’t have been able to accomplish nearly as much if it hadn’t been for Malcolm X, Stokely Carmichael, the Black Panthers, and other folks who weren’t nearly so civil.

      I agree about their contribution, but I’m struggling to see how people like Stokely Carmichael, Malcolm X, Eldridge Cleaver, Bobby Seale, Angela Davis, etc were uncivil. Committed, yes, willing to break rules, perhaps, but in terms of civil discourse they were topnotch. Stokely Carmichael is credited for introducing the term ‘institutional racism’ into the popular lexicon which hardly makes his example parallel to a group that introduced the term ‘asshattery’ into the popular lexicon.

      There’s a scene in Spike Lee’s film Malcolm X, where it cuts to the two FBI agents assign to eavesdrop on Malcolm while his wife’s away so they can catch him in a compromising position with another woman. One is bemoaning the lack of any action and says ‘Jeez, this guy’s a saint compared to King.’ Now I don’t think he meant with that scene to say that Malcolm was better than King, just that they had their own personal strength and weaknesses.

      So I guess that I’m saying how civil we perceive people to be may be more a reflection on us. I think that someone whose opening conversational gambit is ‘Would you like a glass of champagne, motherfucker?’ is far more civil than someone who opens with ‘With all do respect, that Todd Akin is a clever chap’.

      1. Hmmm, well I’m hesitant to opine on this at too great of a length since I’m white and also not particularly knowledgeable about the Black Power movement. But I do know that Stokely Carmichael regularly referred to white people in his speeches as “honkies,” a word that’s often considered derogatory by white people. One speech of his I looked at also referred to white people having “filthy white hands” and “stringy hair.” And my impression is that many of Black radicals in the 1960s and 1970s spoke similarly.

        Now, in my opinion, such strong language was completely justified and necessary for these activists to get their point across, and I agree with the majority of their political positions on racial matters also. But I’m not sure if that type of discourse–while appropriate and insightful–qualifies as “civil.” I’m pretty sure it doesn’t qualify as civil by Fincke’s standards, at any rate. So I still think those folks serve as an example for how sometimes being less than civil can be empowering for marginalized people and can also prove to be politically effective, contrary to Fincke’s thesis.

        Oh, and Malcolm X is a great movie.

        1. @Tinfoil

          That’s a really good example of how a civil tone can sugar coat the most offensive of attitudes. Which is another argument against Fincke’s premise.

        2. Fat Steve, I wouldn’t characterize that comment by Carmichael as “civil” in any way. I don’t think he was trying to “sugarcoat” anything. What part of his comment is the part he was trying to ne nice about?

        3. Fat Steve, I wouldn’t characterize that comment by Carmichael as “civil” in any way. I don’t think he was trying to “sugarcoat” anything. What part of his comment is the part he was trying to ne nice about?

          I wasn’t saying his comment was civil, merely his verbiage was ‘civil’ in the sense that Fincke is talking about, that it didn’t use swearwords.

          I was using this as an example of why Fincke was wrong.

        4. Fuck, I’d never heard that quote. I fucking hate it when people I’ve admired to turn out to have been assholes in other dimensions of their lives.

        5. Sorry, Fat Steve. I misread. I have terrible insomnia and at this time of night, I get foggy. But not enough to sleep, dammit.

        6. Sorry, Fat Steve. I misread. I have terrible insomnia and at this time of night, I get foggy. But not enough to sleep, dammit.

          God, I empathize. There’s nothing worse than being bone tired and absolutely not sleepy. It sounds like a contradiction and I wish it was.

    7. I think that it also stems from the fact that very few civil rights/feminist activists are taught in school/commonly discussed by marginalized groups, and the few that are tend to be the least threatening ones.
      To say it more plainly, school curriculums teach about martin luther king but not malcom X, and most people who benefit from racism don’t feel compelled to go do more research on their own.

  2. Doesn’t this all depend on the context how you use these words?

    There is a huge difference between using them in childish ad hominem attacks, or just for added emotional emphasis within a solid line of argument.

    There is also a separate tactical question of how much non-civil language really helps. You run the risk of being dismissed as hysterical and irrational which can make it very unproductive. This obviously also depends on context and audience.

    1. You also “run the risk of being dismissed as hysterical and irrational” when you ever bring up anything marginalizing done to you, no matter how politely and carefully you word it. That’s part of how the kyriarchy works to protect itself.

      And if the bigot you are arguing with doesn’t see your argument about their behavior as “solid” or rational in the first place (which they don’t, or they wouldn’t still be fighting you and trying to shut you up), then to them there is no difference between a “childish ad hominem attack” and an ‘acceptable’ use of the insult. To them they haven’t done anything wrong, so it’s always a “childish ad hominem.”

      Being civil to one’s own oppressors as a form of fighting back does not work. If it did the fucking oppression wouldn’t be continuing. A requirement for marginalized people to be “civil” is inherently oppressive. It takes weapons away from them and hands them to the ones marginalizing them, who are the ones who get to fucking DEFINE “civil” in the first place.

      1. “It takes weapons away from them and hands them to the ones marginalizing them, who are the ones who get to fucking DEFINE “civil” in the first place.”

        THIS.

    2. There is a huge difference between using them in childish ad hominem attacks, or just for added emotional emphasis within a solid line of argument.

      In my experience, people will seize on curses added to a “solid line of argument” as an excuse to dismiss the argument.

      In my experience, that’s the usual function of an anti-profanity policy.

  3. I also find the example in the OP of Sandra Fluke an interesting example of the “pseudo-civility” often found in American discourse.

    Typically, “serious people” do not use words like “slut” but implying exactly the same thing using “acceptable” words is perfectly Ok. It becomes a game just of word choice as opposed to the actual meaning of the speech.

    It is pretty much the same thing as Fincke’s policy of disallowing some specific words. I am not convinced it adds much to the level of discourse.

  4. 100% absolute spot on.
    I would add the insufferable (damn) [drat] ([fuck, I just can’t do without]) classism of actually having all the polite language tools at hand that a good college education offers you.

      1. Yes, that’s exactly what Gilliel meant.

        I have sprained eyes now,from the disingenuity-induced rolling.

        Fincke isn’t. just talking about insults. He expects marginalised people to be able to outline the reasons that they deserve full humanity in detached, academic, philosophically-approved language.

        I’m educated to MSc level, and some of his rules and his verbose pontification are still virtually impenetrable to me.

        How is the average marginalised person, (especially one whose societal disadvantages throw up multiple barriers to even secondary education, let alone tertiary or higher ed.) given anything like a fair chance to defend themselve as per his “moral” communication guidelines?

        He’s so ignorant of his privilege that he has no problems with putting minority group members on notice, simply because they say “You’re a racist/sexist/classist” rather than “You’re in a kyriarchally advantageous position, and you are using that to negatively inform your perspective on racial/sexual/socioeconomic politics”.

        As per my earlier comment, fuck that. Not only is it unfair, but as I’ve found to my cost, being able to engage on that level often incurs judgement such as “How can you be [minority group member] if you can debate like this? You’re a liar, making up anecdotes to get sympathy for [minority]”.

        There is no way for marginalised people to be on a level footing with their oppressors, unless certain people can put their privilege in a hole in the ground.

        1. Here’s what Fincke actually said:

          So within the realm of civil discourse, superficially polite but actually harmful language can be spotted and queried, with no recourse to insults necessary. And there are two major reasons for this. One is that is marginalized groups already do have powerful weapons available in the forms of harsh moral condemnatory language specifically designed to stigmatize bigotry…[E.g. “racist”, &c .–lambda]

          Fincke argues that it is permissible for a moderator insist that participants aspire to better than calling their opponents “asshole” and “douchebag”, not that they must confine themselves to “detached, academic, philosophically-approved language”. If there is no third alternative, then you really are implying that one must go to college to learn how not to curse.

          I’m educated to MSc level, and some of his rules and his verbose pontification are still virtually impenetrable to me.

          I don’t want to draw out the implications for your MSc, but I didn’t think so, and neither do any of the common metrics for estimating readability. Fincke is actually bending over backwards to consider the arguments of objectors (e.g. you) and address them candidly. Whether he succeeds is another question, but you can hardly say that he’s intentionally obfuscating. To be honest, I wish that more people grappling with these issues would write that clearly and thoroughly.

          he has no problems with putting minority group members on notice, simply because they say “You’re a racist/sexist/classist”

          Fincke never says that. He specifically argues that this is preferable to calling people assholes and douchebags, precisely because he thinks accusations of -isms are (1) more accurate and (2) more powerful than mere abusive insults. While he makes a point in passing about being careful to distinguish charges of racist behaviors from charges of intrinsically racist natures, that’s a point that many other people have made here and elsewhere without controversy. Perhaps your admission that you could not read the article explains the fact that you have got the author’s entire thesis backwards?

        2. and neither do any of the common metrics for estimating readability

          I botched the URL, but the metrics assess that the text is written at about the pitch of the Wall Street Journal, or a 7th grade reading level.

  5. If a group is really marginalised, won’t they only ever get power by persuading the non-marginalised group to give it up? An entirely male Parliament votes for women’s sufferage, an entirely white Congress votes for civil rights. So your “tone” should be whatever’s most effective at convincing the non-marginalised group to cooperate. Of course this doesn’t necessarily contradict what you say, swearing a blue streak could be the most effective way to signal your convinction and seriousness. On the other hand, we have a Maori politician in New Zealand who has referred to the Prime Minister’s “house niggers”, accused “white motherfuckers” of “raping our land” and asked the public to mourn Osama Bin Laden as a man who fought for the freedom of his people. Fine so far. But he’s achieved notably less of his policy goals than other, more civil, Maori politicians. So perhaps he could be more effective if he changed his tone.

    1. What this person said about Maori politics is not true. He is talking about Hone Harawira http://mana.net.nz/ there is no reason Americans would be interested so he thinks he can say that.

      It proves the point of the original post, there is no point responding politely to this. His agenda is obvious but if you weren’t a member of the marginalized group he’s talking about you wouldn’t probably even notice. There are no swearwords in his comment, his lies are civil but if I were to respond I would seem insulting and uncouth, Daniel Fincke wouldn’t like it!

      1. So how do you think talking about house niggers has helped Hone Harawira get his message across and achieve his goals?

        1. Do you think omitting swear words from your comment makes your agenda any less obvious? Do you think slandering Maori on American websites makes whites in NZ look civilized and rational? If you think Maori are interested in persuading you of anything or begging settlers to be kind to the natives you have no idea what our goals are.

        2. I, for one, appreciate having a direct link that confirms Gareth’s lack of reading comprehension. No where did that guy ask the public to mourn OBL. He said Maori tradition dictates mourning of everyone, and he asked to acknowledge that even the evil folk may have reasons (messed up reasons, IMO) for evildoing.

          So, thanks.

    2. That doesn’t sound like tone being the only problem, the content sounds problematic too. Regardless of how he asked the public to mourn Osama bin Laden, it wouldn’t go over well with most people.

      1. You’re right the content is Indigenous rights and sovereignty, that’s what racist white people in NZ find ‘problematic’. If only we were polite they would give back our land right.

        1. Sticking to Rhoanna’s actual point- no matter the tone, celebrating bin Laden’s actions is going to piss people off. I’m pretty sure the problem is not politeness, if you’re discussing how much you love a prolific mass murderer.

        2. He didn’t say he loved prolific mass murder, the polite commenter above was lying to advance his impolite agenda.

      2. Harawira pointed out that OBLs people will grieve for him & OBL’s positions had/have resonance for colonized and marginalized people everywhere. There was neither lie nor offense in either sentiment, that I can tell.

        That said, the assumption that “celebrating” Bin Laden is de facto “going to piss people off” is problematic. Because it neglects that there ARE lots of people, who do in fact qualify as PEOPLE, who do NOT view OBL as The Enemy. And lots of them full on qualify as USian PEOPLE.

        True story: I have a very good friend who teaches high school in NYCs South Bronx. On 9/11, there were kids cheering. Now, grab holda that knee here for a second (to quote ABB). Let’s remember the MLK quote I posted above – “A riot is the language of the unheard.”

        These students are almost without exception POC, and some of the poorest residents of the US.
        These are the kids being victimized by NYCs “Stop and Search” policies, and it was so LOOONG before 9/11.
        These are almost without exception part of the 50% of black men under the supervision of the US “Justice” system – if they themselves haven’t been in jail or juvvy, their fathers, brothers, mothers, uncles, aunts, &etc. HAVE.
        These are the kids whose schools and neighborhoods have been consistently underfunded and neglected.
        These are the kids whose NUMBER ONE cause of death is gun violence.
        These are the kids who are looking forward to (or in some tragic cases backward AT) (for women) ~50% chance of being raped, 1/100 chance of being shot to death before the age of 35, >25% unemployment and close to 70% UNDERemplyoment, and (for men) ~35% chance of being incarcerated.

        By the time they’re in HS, these kids know FULL DAMNED well that the US gives not ONE fuck about them, except how Rich White Dudes can make money and/or political careers off of them in the US Miliatry & Prison Industrial Complex.

        These kids were ALREADY dying young of violence – in the THOUSANDS – without ANYONE giving a shit. So they were supposed to grieve when Rich White Dudes died by violence? The same dudes exploiting them – or at least full partners making money off the systems that exploit them? Yeah, fuck that noise, these kids said. And if you can *blame* THEM for that, I suggest your compassion and understanding are really fucking broken. Get thee hence and read Richard Wright until you get it. Also Caleb Carr’s “The Lessons of Terror”.

        1. So they were supposed to grieve when Rich White Dudes died by violence?

          Oh, fuck you so hard, asshole. That’s pretty much the most ignorant thing I think I’ve ever read.

          Really impressive, how those 747s managed to selectively only hit wealthy white men. Good thing no fucking POC died in the Twin Towers. Good thing there weren’t any women aboard those planes, or any foreign nationals. Good thing you didn’t just fucking erase the tragedies of thousands of people and families in the service of making some bullshit political point.

          I have a very good friend who teaches high school in NYCs South Bronx. On 9/11, there were kids cheering.

          You’re full of shit, you know that?

        2. @IrishUp: Seriously. This is the type of comment that does not get moderated?

          This is just fucked up beyond words.

        3. aa – why am I not surprised you didn’t read for comprehension?

          1. Nope, absolutely not FOS – at least on the topic of this comment. That word I got everyone to accept during the Scrabble game without challenging me, OTOH …

          2. Look, people I know died in 9/11. Someone who was meant to be in the same wedding party I was that following weekend, WASN’T because he was somewhere in the building trying to help other people out AFTER having seen his wife and co-workers get safely outside. Another friend from junior high school was in FDNY Rescue 1. My aunt was a nurse in Bellevue and worked 72hrs straight.

          I know full well that not only white people, or rich people died.

          I do apologize for not rounding the post out a bit. So let me try this. People cheered when OBL was killed, and personally I find that heinous, but understandable. Same for when Saddam Hussein was killed. Because as ugly and dehumanizing as *I* find violence and vengeance, I grok that retribution and retaliation can bring a sense of satisfaction and closure.

          But violence begets violence. In that moment, one group of young people, violently discarded and exploited by our society, cheered. From THEIR POV right at that moment, it wasn’t THEM who was being attacked. They are disenfranchised from the US. They do not feel connected to the Rich White Manhattanite. Working in the Financial District someday and being a Wall Street Big Shot was NOT on these kids’ radar – and for good reason, since the White Supremacist society in which they live makes it clear that they Need Not Apply*. Someone had gotten to THE MAN, and they could cheer that.

          This is not some “bullshit” political point. As a result of the attacks of Sept 11th, supporting “our troops”, supporting the “war on terror” were framed as things that Real Amurkins(tm) do. ERGO, anyone opposing these moves or Dubbya or The Patriot Act were de facto NOT Real Americans. And this Real Amurkin vs Not dichotomy is STILL being used by the right wing. But the disenfranchised, marginalized, and colonized here ARE fucking real people (whether or NOT they care to identify as USian) and DESERVE to be better served, and NOT to be dismissed.

          Last thing: I’m 2nd & 3rd generation American, but family originally came from Northern Ireland. Lots of members of the IRA. When I was 16, I stupidly supported the IRA – emotionally (as a 16yo USian, I was not running guns or raising funds). Young, wanting social justice, wanting to make a difference, romanticized notions of “fighting back” in my head, the nuances of terrorism were lost on me. And I wasn’t even a Northern Irish Catholic citizen, directly affected by those marginalizations. I very soon learned to feel very differently about using tools of war to win peace. But I can full well understand the feelings of anger and injustice that would lead people to cheer others’ violence, or engage in it.

          The post is about “Tone”. When the dominant group silences marginalized people, when they declare “I won’t listen because…” and tick down the list of problems (Tone, Rationality, It’s Not Really That Bad….) as a way not to hear, when they selectively pick out what they WILL hear so they can be all like “See how you are?” and “This is Why We Won’t Give You Nice Things”, what recourse is left? How much injustice and silencing and exploitation *should* be borne by the oppressed before they stop Using Their Words? And are the oppressors at ALL justified, if the hitting starts, in saying “See how you are”?

          *For clarification, I’m not talking about whether or not a specific individual had aspirations of this kind. I’m discussing the fact that our society doesn’t market The American Dream to children of color, and they know it. I am absolutely positive at least one kid in that room DID aspire to something like investment banking DESPITE a culture conspiring to tell hir “This is NOT FOR YOU”.

        4. Well, maybe I am in moderation, or maybe just my lengthy response to amblingalong.

          But seriously, what did I say that needs moderating out?
          I did not attack or insult a person. I did not claim that the in-the-moment perceptions of a group of YAs were in fact How The World Is. Nor even that ALL the YA in the South Bronx were uniform in their reaction. I pointed out an illustration of the old “one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom-fighter”.

          Here is the tl;dr version of my other comment, should it appear. Violence and terrorism = BAD. But visiting violence and terrorism upon people – by acts of systemic exploitation, marginalization and colonization, will in fact lead to retaliation from some of those people. Which is what Caleb Carr’s book is about. Violence begets violence and terrorism requires othering and dehumanizing our fellow people and all that. This outcome is understandable. Understandable is NOT the same thing as JUSTIFIABLE, ftr.

        5. IrishUp, I’ve always respected your comments, but I’m 99.99% sure nothing like that ever happened. I don’t care what your friend told you; unless you saw it yourself, it doesn’t even remotely ring true to me. Why? The media was all over every rumor like that in the aftermath of 9/11 — specifically the rumors that Muslim people in Paterson and Jersey City were celebrating the attacks. Not one of those rumors was ever proved, and the vast majority were conclusively debunked. There were definitely racist rumors like that about cheering in Harlem — also debunked. So although you may not view the claim as slandering an entire neighborhood, that’s exactly what it is. Were you even in New York that day?

          And stop with the Rich White Dudes crap. I guess the 600 or 700 women who were killed, and the 500-600 people of color, don’t count? And do you really think all the white people who were killed were rich? It was an office building, for God’s sake.

          What’s next, repeating the rumor that no Jews died that day?

        6. IrishUp, I didn’t see either of your two most recent comments before I wrote mine, and I must say that your original comment gave no indication whatsoever that you don’t personally believe the “Rich White Dudes” thing. Thanks for clarifying.

          But, sorry, I still don’t believe that what you say happened did happen. There is no way that it would not have gotten out and been reported. And I don’t think it was. And wouldn’t it be remarkable, with all the poor young people in New York City (and even 11 years ago the South Bronx wasn’t the poorest, or the way it had been in the ’70’s), that that would have been the only incident like that? Because there weren’t any others, either.

        7. Thank you DonnaL.

          I have to admit, that I am surprised a bit that “there were kids cheering” appears to be being read as “All the Kids In The Bronx Had a Huge Celebratory Parade Across the Borough”. The news was announced over the school speakers. Some kids in class cheered. My friend took the opportunity to make the class a “safe space” for the kids to talk about what they were feeling and WHY they were feeling it. I gave it gussied up language and socio- political context, but the reasoning above represents how cheering kids felt. Not cheering kids felt differently. There were crying kids and worried kids too. They were all American kids.

          Also, yeah, conditions for kids in the south Bronx, still not good:
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bronxpoverty.JPG

          Rumors of it’s gentrification are greatly exaggerated:
          http://bronxmatters.com/2012/03/26/its-official-the-times-declares-south-bronx-is-gentrifying-but-is-it-true/

          In contrast, the poor neighborhood of people who’d lived in their apartment buildings for generations that I lived in in Manhattan, gentrified long ago. My mom is the last rent controlled tenant in her building.

        8. Bin Laden didn’t blow up the projects, right? True. I agree with your comments. We’re not supposed to talk about colonization, we’re supposed to pretend we are ‘1 nation’ 1 volk, white people find it rude to be reminded of reality.

          I don’t remember 9-11 I’m not American so I don’t have any feelings about it. I remember when the Americans killed Osama Bin Laden they called him ‘Geronimo’ apparently they thought he was an anti-colonial hero fighting for his land and his people!

        9. @amblingalong men swearing at a woman because they don’t agre with/understand her comment is ok eh? Swearing in defense of the status quo is always acceptable.

        10. Bin Laden didn’t blow up the projects, right?

          He did not. But he did blow up a shitload of busmen/women in the restaurants and cleaning staff, many of whom were of color and not fluent in English.

        11. @amblingalong men swearing at a woman because they don’t agre with/understand her comment is ok eh? Swearing in defense of the status quo is always acceptable.

          You’re right, in my anger I forgot that women are delicate flowers and that swearing at them (or even in their vicinity!) can provoke fainting and hysteria. Apologies, asshole.

        12. Excuse me? “Fuck you” donna l, 1 nation is a direct reference to the nazi slogan. I didn’t make it up, “asshole”. Take it up with settlers in NZ & Australia if you think they’re infringing your copy right.

          People who were not white died in that terrorist attack, the blame is on the policies of the American government that caused it. These policies benefit white people, especially rich people at the expense of everybody else. It is about class position not identity.

          I don’t think anybody on this thread has referenced Fanon yet, revolutions are never polite. Eh gareth – ka whawhai tonu matou, ake, ake, ake. You like that language cuz? 🙂

        13. Fuck you. The objection wasn’t to “one nation,” but to “one volk,” which is a Nazi reference, and comparing New Yorkers to the Nazis is a fucking insult particularly to New Yorkers who lost family in Holocaust, such as, for example, Donna.

          the blame is on the policies of the American government that caused it

          No. The blame is on the people who planned and carried out the attacks. There are numerous ways to respond to horrific injustice. Mass murder is only one. And if you think the 9/11 attacks were some kind of revolutionary act designed to empower the subjugated, you’re delusional.

        14. These students are almost without exception POC, and some of the poorest residents of the US.
          These are the kids being victimized by NYCs “Stop and Search” policies, and it was so LOOONG before 9/11.
          These are almost without exception part of the 50% of black men under the supervision of the US “Justice” system – if they themselves haven’t been in jail or juvvy, their fathers, brothers, mothers, uncles, aunts, &etc. HAVE.
          These are the kids whose schools and neighborhoods have been consistently underfunded and neglected.
          These are the kids whose NUMBER ONE cause of death is gun violence.
          These are the kids who are looking forward to (or in some tragic cases backward AT) (for women) ~50% chance of being raped, 1/100 chance of being shot to death before the age of 35, >25% unemployment and close to 70% UNDERemplyoment, and (for men) ~35% chance of being incarcerated.

          These are kids who are human and don’t like the idea of planes crashing into buildings in their city.

          I disagree with Donna’s assessment where she said she was ‘99.99% sure nothing like that ever happened.’ I definitely call this 100% bullshit. What did they cheer at? The news that the first plane hit? The news that the second plane hit? The collapse of the towers? The announcement of the number of dead?

          And her reaction to kids cheering mass murder was to make the class a ‘safe space’? WTFuck? Didn’t happen.

      3. Nadine, you already said you don’t remember 9/11 and that it doesn’t mean anything to you, and you obviously have zero knowledge about the crimes of Osama bin Laden and his acolytes, or the demographics of the people he killed, so why are you even bothering to comment on the subject? Do you have any justification either than a burning desire to be a fucking asshole? And please don’t try to suggest that “1 volk” wasn’t a deliberate Nazi reference and attempted analogy. Even though I strongly suspect that you know even less about Nazi Germany than you do about 9/11.

        1. Furthermore, speaking of “rich people,” I assume you’re aware that Osama came from an extraordinarily wealthy Saudi Arabian family, and that most of the hijackers came from affluent Saudi families as well, and not one of them was exactly an oppressed person except in the sense of having the hegemony of their religious views challenged? Not that he ever hesitate to perpetrate mass murder on other Muslims.

        2. not one of them was exactly an oppressed person except in the sense of having the hegemony of their religious views challenged?

          Well, many of the hijackers wouldn’t pass as white in the West. Also, the West has a neo-colonial relationship with the Middle East, in general, including Saudi Arabia, and this hardly benefits the region. So actually, I do think it’s accurate to point out many of the hijackers were oppressed in certain ways.

          But overall, I agree with you and EG. What the hijackers chose to do was absolutely reprehensible, and they are the only ones responsible for those choices. The policies of the American government only “caused” the attacks in the same sense that the Big Bang “caused” the attacks or Osama bin Laden’s mom having the sex that led her to get pregnant with OBL “caused” the attacks.

          And what those hijackers chose to do was horrible, and it was the wrong choice. Eight children were murdered in the crimes of September 11, ranging from ages 2 to 11. It may also interest Nadine that large numbers of people from formerly colonized countries died in the attacks, presumably mainly from being burned alive: 47 people from the Dominican Republic, 41 people from India, 16 people from the Philippines, 16 people from Jamaica, 15 people from Mexico, 14 people from Trinidad and Tobago, 13 people from Ecuador.

          And I can’t believe Nadine was evoking Franz Fanon in a seeming attempt to imply that Al Qaeda was radical (in the leftist sense). Nadine, are you fucking kidding? Al-Qaeda’s political goal is to set up a global Islamic theocracy. Sound progressive? This totalitarian religious dictatorship would involve the oppression of all non-Muslims, as well as minority sects of Muslims such as Shiites and Sufis, who do not practice Al-Qaeda’s particular form of Islam. Sayyd Qutb, Al-Qaeda’s biggest ideological influence, was explicitly opposed to socialism and liked to talk about the conspiracies of “world Jewry.”

          In short, these people are regressive pricks who have caused a huge amount of suffering around the globe. It’s true they have one thing in common with me, being opposed to the US military. . .but, you know what? Most Neo-Nazis in America are also opposed to the US military, and they are complete scumbags. So I’m not going to give Al-Qaeda too much credit for this opposition.

        3. LotusBecca, I agree with you; what I meant was that I don’t think they were “oppressed” in any meaningful sense in their own country.

        4. Ahhh. Well, you’re right, Donna: most of them were pretty affluent. Mohamed Atta’s father, for example, was a lawyer and his mother came from a wealthy business family. And, of course, they were all men! Not a surprise as they were advocating a religious ideology that treats women as subhumans.

      4. @ LotusBecca
        “Not a surprise as they were advocating a religious ideology that treats women as subhumans.”

        and here again with more of the BS. Its really infuriating, as a Muslim woman, to hear this shit over and over and over again. there is a difference between culture and religion, and much of what the taliban practised was pretty much non Islamic most notibally banning women from getting an education (an Islamic right). its no wonder POC have issues with feminism when this is the kind of shit we have to see. next time you want to comment on somthing you know fuck about, dont.

        1. Becca didn’t say a religion that treated women as subhuman; she specified a “religious ideology.” The ideology of the attackers was indeed a religious one. Regardless of what Islam in its purest form advocates, the Taliban does commit its crimes against humanity in the name of what it calls Islam, and it promotes an ideology that invokes religion as its justification.

        2. They do follow a religion that treats women as subhumans.

          Whether their interpretation of Islam is “correct” or not is a theological question but not really a meaningful question from outside the religion.

          The strongly misogynistic strains of Islam are not just a marginal phenomenon. This can not be just waved away with a “no true Scotsman” argument.

        3. Laini, I can see how that would be infuriating. I myself am disgusted by the anti-Muslim sentiment in Western culture. As an atheist with a Christian background it’s not something I personally have to contend with, but I can see how it would be alienating and enraging.

          But basically, I meant the same thing EG is saying. I never intended to imply that Islam was inherently anti-woman. What I meant is that the specific ideology that Al Qaeda advocates is anti-woman. I don’t believe that Osama bin Laden spoke for all Muslims any more than I believe that Jerry Falwell spoke for all Christians. And as to whether Al Qaeda is even legitimately Muslim or not I’ll leave for Muslim people to discuss amongst themselves. All I know is that they identify as Muslim. . .as an atheist it’s not my really concern whether this is a valid identification or not. My main concern is regards to them is simply that I oppose what they stand for, regardless of what its particular religious, cultural, or political derivation might be.

        4. I never intended to imply that Islam was inherently anti-woman.

          To respond to this and try to clarify my above post: What does this even mean?

          Teachings of Islam includes deeply misogynistic interpretations as well as liberal ones. There is no obvious reason to say that the liberal interpretations are more “true” or “correct” than the misogynistic ones.

          If you are a Muslim, you can say that a specific interpretation is incorrect, since it is not [whatever interpretation you believe to be true], but as an outsider this is not a meaningful criterion.

          How should I decide what is the “real nature” of Islam or any other religion? Alternatives:

          * Look at the original texts
          Problem: Tend to favour fundamentalist and literalist interpretations. It does not give a positive picture.

          * Look at the teachings of respected authorities within the religion.
          Problem: Which ones? Opinions and interpretations can and do differ dramatically. Also tend to give a less relaxed and liberal view since it is the view of people taking religion very seriously.

          * Look at what the adherents actually believe
          Problem: This makes it virtually impossible to disentangle religion and culture, and it can often be argued their theological understanding is weak.

          I tend to go with the last one. Islam is whatever actual Muslims believe.

          When looking at the current mainstream interpretations of Islam, misogynistic beliefs are sadly fairly dominant.

        5. To respond to this and try to clarify my above post: What does this even mean?

          matlun, it simply meant that, like you, I recognize that there are misogynistic forms of Islamic thought and practice as well as non-misogynistic forms of Islamic thought and practice. I recognize the internal diversity of opinion that exists among Muslims on women’s rights as well as on everything else. So I don’t generalize and say “Islam is anti-woman” when the more useful generalization is “religious fundamentalism is anti-woman.” Even this isn’t absolutely true, but it seems to hold for the most part across a variety of religions. Furthermore, it’s a framing device that clearly supports cultural liberalism, whereas an anti-Islam view can just as easily support illberal cultural imperialism as actually progressive ideas.

  6. Ah yes, Dan “being called stupid is worse than being called tr***y” Fincke.

    He’s been challenged over this in the past, the Stonewall riots, the suffragettes and their campaigns, but he’s sticking with his belief that it’s somehow immoral to get angry at privileged arses like himself

    And, as he reaps, so shall he sow, with comments from MRAs already, thanking him for protecting him from meanie straw feminists.

    His former fellow FTB colleague, JT Eberhard, once banned a slew of LGBT commenters, using his “ally” status as a defence. His co-blogger Christina wrote a disgustingly transphobic piece, and the bigots came out of the woodwork to help her JAQ-off in the direction of LGBT commenters who were trying very calmly to explain why she was wronp.

    So JT stormed in, threw his privilege around, claimed he was an amazing ally and was therefore above criticism, and essentially doubled down on Christina’s original fail.

    He then made a fresh post, calling out LGBT commenters by name, and banning them, without banning the provocateurs because they were “just asking questions”, and had to right to demand education from marginalised people.

    The female bloggers on the site are receiving rape and death threats daily, from MRAs and people who believe feminism is evil. Two are on writing breaks because of the stress, and Daniel “Verbosity is my philosophy” Fincke is defending the rights of those doing the terrorising, using “both sides are at fault” and “incivility toward your abusers isn’t moral” arguments.

    Well fuck that privileged noise, and fuck educated, cisstraight, able-bodied, white, financially secure, male “philosophers” who think they’re the arbiters of decency and morality.

    1. Well fuck that privileged noise, and fuck educated, cisstraight, able-bodied, white, financially secure, male “philosophers” who think they’re the arbiters of decency and morality.

      QFT. Also, the bit where he says that insults and calls of racist/misogynist/etc. are “equally hostile” to the marginalizing language of the privileged really, really irks me. No, Dan, they are NOT equally hostile. Calling someone a misogynist asshat and insulting them personally is nowhere near as hostile as their denying my humanity and claiming the right to take away my bodily autonomy. Fuck that shit.

      1. You bigotist! Have you no fucks to give for the feelings of the oppressors? How uncivil of you. For shame!

        Calling out the people who deny our humanity is nasty and spiteful, it hurts their delicate feefees. Their brittle veneers crumble into dust at words like “misogynist” or “racist”. They can be permanently damaged, and develop PTSD – Post Truth Sadness Disorder.

        Repent, and swear from now on to play nice, and remember always to kneel and crawl before their abuse, and limit your dialogue to things like “I can see that you’d prefer that I didn’t have rights Sir. Thank you for being honest”.

        See? Easy!

        1. No, I have no fucks to give. WE ARE ALL OUT OF FUCKS. Sorry, oppressors, your feelings will have to stay hurt.

          Post Truth Sadness Disorder = WIN. SO MUCH WIN. 😀

        1. I saw that change, and I will openly admit JT should also have looked into that last group of questions that pushed Anna over the edge.

    2. I agree with your assessment generally, but I think it’s overstating it to refer to a mild piece objecting to ‘DIE CIS SCUM’ as ‘disgustingly transphobic.’ We can still build a convincing argument that JT and Christina were in the wrong without using that sort of hyperbole.

      1. She was perpetuating tropes that lead to trans women being murdered. Natalie Reed had already discussed it several times. Christina had a direct line to Natalie through the backchannel.

        Had she been genuinely curious or unsure she could have brought it up on Natalie’s posts or with her. Instead she unleashed a wave of putrid transphobic and homophobic shit that’s still reverberating.

        To do that to a fellow blogger who’d put time and effort into explaining it all, to perpetuate and allow harmful tropes throughout the post, and to handwave it away with the equivalent of “Well what do you people expect if you act like this? I’M AN ALLY DAMNIT!” Then for JT to wade in, throw his cisstraight privilege and ally medals around and BAN marginalised people for reacting to JAQ-off trolls. That’s pretty disgusting to me.

        No wonder Natalie doesn’t feel safe box more. Straight white dudes and their little buddies have fucked her over good and proper, to the point that I’m surprised she’s not dead.

        The dudebrahs have helped the trolls to overpower people like Jen, Natalie, Greta, Ophelia and Stephanie, then they’ve scuttled off to Patheos. Good fucking riddance to them.

        1. Read my comment again – I don’t think we disagree WRT the aftermath of Christina’s post. It was appalling. But we wade into questionable territory when a person can’t even object to eliminationist rhetoric without having that objection dismissed as transphobic.

        2. PH, I just read that post, and while I don’t think the post itself was objectionable, the comments were…uh… .fuck me, really a lot objectionable. I don’t think that stating discomfort with eliminationist rhetoric is being disgustingly anything, though. Even from the context of having been a person from a colonised country, white elimination rhetoric (and you’d be surprised how much there is) makes me incredibly uneasy.

        3. Sorry for the delay in responding to this, but I did want to say something, even belatedly. Partial Human, you are a terrific ally to trans people, and I always very much appreciate your efforts, but (there’s always a but!), I read those threads, and strongly disagree with your characterization of Christina’s thread as being “disgustingly transphobic.” At worst, it was cluelessly cissexist, and I do think it’s important to preserve the distinction between active transphobia (Janice Raymond, Germaine Greer, Mary Daly, et al.) and oblivious cissexism (Naomi Wolf!). Truly “Disgusting transphobia” is all over the Internet — things like saying that trans women are rapist tools of the patriarchy by virtue of merely existing. That if a trans woman has a vagina it’s not “real,” just a mere “second asshole.” That you can always tell a trans woman’s “constructed” genitals from real female genitals because they smell like rotten meat.

          If Christina’s thread is “disgusting transphobia,” then what in the world do we call things like that?

      2. And on the “Die Cis Scum” rhetoric. Yes, I do get the point. I know it’s entirely absurd to interpret it as any kind of real threat to cis people. And if Natalie Reed or any other trans woman feels empowered or otherwise wants to convey a message by wearing a tattoo or T-shirt that says that, then more power to them.

        But as a method of communication on the Internet, at a place like — for example — this one? Not so much. In the time I’ve been commenting here, I remember exactly one person (not a regular commenter) who used that phrase here, as a blanket attack on all the cis commenters here, including those who have proven themselves to be real allies to trans people. I hated it, and said so.

        I’ve gotten a lot of positive feedback here in the last 9 or 10 months, largely by being more patient with cissexism (but not when the same person persists in it, repeatedly and aggressively, and not with actual transphobia) than I would if I responded as I’d sometimes like to when I get tired of repeating myself. As I’ve said before, the people I’m really trying to speak to are not necessarily the ones I’m directly addressing or arguing with, or the people I know are allies already, but readers who might not know very much about trans issues, and/or may never have met or interacted with a trans person, and/or may be undecided about what’s being discussed. Does anyone really think that I’d have gotten the same generally positive reception here if I’d adopted a different, angrier “tone,” even short of responding to everything with “die cis scum”? Sure I shouldn’t have to, but trans people represent such a tiny, tiny minority — of LGBT people and feminists alike — that persuasion is, I think, the only way of accomplishing anything tangible.

        Plus, like macavity, I’m also uncomfortable with any sort of eliminationist rhetoric. I get the sentence-diagramming justifications, but I don’t think there’s any reasonable way of denying that “die cis scum” gives the impression of being directed against all cis people, not merely those who are “scum.” So I could never, ever, ever say it myself, not in a million years. Because the person I love most in the world, my son, is cis. As are most of my friends. How could I even think such things, let alone say them? Not.

        And I’m no Uncle Tom, or Aunt [insert stereotypical trans woman’s first name, your choice] by any means.

  7. 1. There has to be some kind of Godwinesque law about privileged white guys invoking the name of Martin Luther King, Jr., to convince marginalized people to behave themselves.

    We can call it Fincke’s law! Let’s make this a thing.

      1. When I get a chance, hopefully in the next day or two, I’m going to look into adding it to TV Tropes.
        Also, “Martin Luther King, Jr. was a Republican!” should be a variation of Fincke’s Law

  8. “Please, Sir, may we same-sex couples have two more of those over one thousand rights exclusively granted to couples who are legally married?”

    “No, Oliver, you may not. In fact, you are causing me deep distress by making such an unreasonable application. You were granted one such privilege as recently as three years ago, which brings you up to a total of five. You may request one additional privilege next year, and perhaps it will be granted. Now sit down.”

    “Yes, Sir. Thank you, Sir.”

    Well, that conversation definitely works – for one participant.

    Brilliant bit about the All-Cleansing But. One sees this time and time again. And there’s that wonderful equivalence always being drawn about how those who ask for Tolerance, by wanting to stop the dominant group imposing on the rights of others, are themselves being (shock! horror!) Intolerant!!! Totally the same thing – just as your last paragraph points out.

    (Quick Aside: Are there any other spelling wonks who’d enjoy a fun thread sometime delving into such matters as Ess-v-Zed?)

  9. He can ban personal insults. He can’t ban inflammatory language. Patrick Henry and (Finck me, please) Dr. King come to mind as masters of the inflammatory phrase, also known as the quote.

    No matter how many insults he bans on his blog, other comments on other blogs almost certainly will refer to him as “that douchebag who resists being dragged, kicking and screaming, into the 21st century” to paraphrase another master of inflammatory language.

    1. MLK:
      “Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word “tension.” I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, so must we see the need for nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood. The purpose of our direct action program is to create a situation so crisis packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation.”

      He was not the milquetoast teddy bear he’s made out to have been by the privileged.

      1. Yes. I came here to post the exact same thing, but you put it so much better.

        And let’s not forget that the most “dangerous” part of the Black Panthers to the U.S. Government was their program to provide free breakfast for poor black children. It all comes down to which is more effective to your survival and resistance. Within limits, of course.

      2. MLK, Jr. was about nonviolence, not nonconfrontation. People who try to hold him up as an example of their so-called “civility” do so in an effort to shut down confrontational language and it is so sad to see, especially when that is the image of him often thrust forward in schools and by the media.

  10. Yes, I’m a privileged, straight, college-educated white guy, but there is a point that language use changes how the argument is received. If language is perceived as irrational and overly-emotional, it’s more easily dismissed by those who think the marginalized group is irrational and overly-emotional (stereotypes often thrown at women, minorities, gays, etc, etc).

    “Calm” language, on the other hand, is more likely to be perceived as rational and logical, and therefore maybe more convincing. Maybe.

    But sometimes a fucktard just needs to be told they’re a fucktard, even if it makes them close their ears that much tighter.

    1. For the record, if I’m talking about queer rights with straight people, anything other than simpering subservience will get me labelled as irrational and aggressive. That is, your argument sounds fine, until you’re a member of a marginalised group talking about your rights and you notice that no matter how you phrase things, people are going to call you overemotional. Accusations of irrationality occur regardless of the language used by a marginalised person.

      1. Like I said, sometimes a fucktard needs to be called a fucktard, and the stereotype of irrationality is often used against the marginalized.

        But don’t the privileged need to be shocked, shaken, to create movement? Which is more shocking: something that conforms to your bias or something that runs contrary to it?

        There’s a difference between subservience and civility.

        1. The thing is, the very act of explicitly or implicitly calling out a marginalizer’s actions as oppressive, or suggesting that the effect of hir language regardless of intent is oppressive, is itself seen as inherently irrational and overemotional. Because to the marginalizer their behavior or words are not oppressive, and their intent magically wipes away any possibility that it could be so. For someone to be upset at them and imply that they could be contributing to marginalization in any way already crosses that line and brings into play the stereotype of irrationality: if the marginalized person were “rational”, they wouldn’t be objecting at all. They would see things the way the marginalizer sees them: as not problematic in the first place.

          The blindness of the privileged regarding the real state of things is what creates the conditions for any supposed irrationality on the marginalized person’s part, not anything inherent in the latter’s speech, tone, or choice of words.

        2. I don’t know whether anyone actually needs to be called a fucktard, but even if that’s the case, this is not the place to do it. Choose a different invective.

        3. For someone to be upset at them and imply that they could be contributing to marginalization in any way already crosses that line and brings into play the stereotype of irrationality: if the marginalized person were “rational”, they wouldn’t be objecting at all. They would see things the way the marginalizer sees them: as not problematic in the first place.

          But doesn’t that mean there’s no useful discourse possible? No way to convince or change minds? A black hole, with no solution, because you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t?

          I really should just sit down and shut up, because of my privilege, but I can’t help but think, or just hope, that there’s the possibility for useful and beneficial discussion of one intelligence convincing another.

        4. Useful discourse is possible, but it requires that the privileged be willing to listen even if a marginalized person is angry at them, insulting, etc. It requires that the privileged try to listen both *past* the insults – to hear the grievance – and *to* the insult, as an expression of rightful anger. It can only happen if no *requirement* for a certain kind of language be placed on the marginalized person. Certainly they can use rational, civil discourse and logical argument (whatever those things mean in context), but it’s entirely their choice, with no pressure to do so.

          And see, the marginalized cannot make a privileged person be willing to listen to any sort of argument; that’s part of the privileged person’s privilege, that they get to choose how to respond and thus the potential success of the argument. They can listen, or turn it into a frustrating debacle. When engaging with someone who chooses not to listen, but merely to continue their denial and marginalizing, civility is already beside the point. When engaging with someone who does choose to listen, the marginalized person gets to speak however they feel they *need* to for their own sake and as might best communicate their situation *and* feelings. An expression of anger itself has communicative value, because the subject is not simply abstract but has concrete, hurtful effects. Their anger and pain are not irrelevant; they need to be heard as much as any logical argument for equality does. Civility can be a useful tool, but if someone’s not willing to listen to an expression of anger and pain without rejecting the argument itself, they aren’t willing to engage in a meaningful way at all.

          Plus, what has already been said downthread regarding the purposes of standing up and being angry beyond as it relates to convincing someone not to marginalize you. The communication of the oppressed is not solely focused on the privileged, and has other purposes too, some of them for the benefit of the marginalized person in question and other marginalized people nearby. It’s really not all about you.

        5. Shorter tl;dr: useful discourse is possible, but it requires the privileged to set aside the stereotype of irrationality and go into the discussion assuming that maybe there is something legitimately wrong, and that the marginalized person knows what they are talking about better than the privileged person does.

          Plus, it’s not only about convincing the privileged. Oppressed people communicate with and for each other, as pointed out downthread.

      2. It took a little polite tea-dance at the Stonewall tavern to get the gay rights movement some attention. Civility is vastly overrated.

      3. Simpering subservience – EXACTLY!!

        That is just what so many straight people expect, even among those who really want to be supportive instead of just feeling entitled to wear the Ally label without particularly doing anything to earn the distinction. It reminds me of Lady Marchmain not giving Sebastian a proper allowance and letting him order his own life, however poorly by her standards he might do so, because she liked everything to be a little gift. It’s understandably tempting to an extent to enjoy feeling generous and starting out several Brownie Points ahead of other people on the Decent Human Being score because the bar is set lower.

        1. The new film (which I was going to see until I read that they turned Charles into a scheming predator) or the miniseries version that was adapted by John Mortimer?

          But, back on track:

          [Plus, it’s not only about convincing the privileged. Oppressed people communicate with and for each other, as pointed out downthread.]

          And let us not leave out the Movable Middle, which reminds me of something I’ll start as a new comment.

        2. The miniseries. I hadn’t heard about the film (and WTF with that character change?)

          I’ll look for your comment – good point to raise.

  11. “Civility” is spectacularly relative as well. My recollection of original sources (newsreels, mostly) from history class is that the privileged white power structure against which MLK was demonstrating found him spectacularly uncivil.

    Uncivil enough to jail him, multiple times. In hindsight, in a modern world where marches and sit ins and singing protesters are part of our context, such demonstrations have been ‘civilized’ – sometimes.

    No one screams about ‘tone’ when pro-life demonstrators behave incredibly uncivilly towards employees and clients of clinics. But the Occupy camps were very uncivilized places, we were told time and again.

    No, tone policing is absolutely a tool of the privileged; it’s absolutely a tool of gaslighters; it’s absolutely manipulation of a moving line. Speak a little nicer, and don’t block the sidewalk and don’t make people uncomfortable, in fact, why don’t you go stand over here in this tidy little “free speech zone” so you don’t interfere in the camera shot, because that would just be rude.

    I love everything about this post. Also, we should totally make Finke’s law a thing.

    1. My recollection of original sources (newsreels, mostly) from history class is that the privileged white power structure against which MLK was demonstrating found him spectacularly uncivil.

      Precisely.

      This identification of MLK with “civility” is one of the most egregious examples of the de-fanging of MLK’s image by white America. It’s as if this man, who was a fiery rabble-rouser, a warrior, politely invited the white supremacists to take tea with him and, after offering them scones and finger-sandwiches, gently asked them to maybe please consider not lynching him. It’s as if he never used inflammatory rhetoric, when he was a master of it. It’s as if he wasn’t radical or dangerous.

      “Peaceful” and “non-violent” do not equate to “nice.” MLK wasn’t nice. He scorned niceness.

      1. No he wasn’t nice, but his public discourse was a perfect example of civility

        “I have a dream that one day, down in Alabama, with its vicious racists, with its governor having his lips dripping with the words of interposition and nullification; one day right there in Alabama, little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers.”

        Not nice, but civil.

        1. I’m asking this completely without sarcasm:

          Do you think being civil is always the best course of action? If so, why? I’m honestly just not sure why we need to place civility on such a high pedestal, especially since “civility” doesn’t have an objective definition.

        2. I will second Katniss’ question. I would also point to what others like mcavitykitsune here have already noted: that while *we* here and now consider King’s words as “civil,” *at the time* they were considered very UNcivil. That they are considered “civil” now is an indication that the system has become relatively more comfortable with them and sees them as less threatening than certain other expressions of resistance.

          Plus, even if we retroactively apply our view of his words to the time period, he STILL was assassinated.

        3. Okay, in this context civil is using direct, supportable descriptions, not devolving the conversation to blatant namecalling. There is nothing wrong with saying “You are a cis-gendered bigot because …” Saying “You’re an asshat” however adds very little to the discussion.

          And yes, while back in the day, most would call MLK uncivil, I would argue that many, including the Kennedy’s supported him precisely because his words were civil.

        4. In that case I think civil might not be the best word choice, because accusations that marginilized people are being “uncivil” get thrown around when they DO make statements containing “direct, supportable descriptions”. People who want to maintain their privledge and had having it mentioned will accuse anyone who calls them on anything, no mater how gently, of being “uncivil”.

          Anything along the lines of “be more civil”, “use a nicer tone”, “don’t be rude/unreasonable”, etc will rankle because marginilized people hear it no matter how nicely they try to put things.

  12. The problem to me is that he conflates things that make privileged people feel uncomfortable with things that are dehumanizing and othering. I actually totally agree that calling people names or acting as if they are “evil” is really harmful to building a world where people aren’t othered. Also, using shame (“you are an asshole”) to try to control people being oppressive is a bad strategy for trying to change them, because they are already so full of shame, and it is driving their behavior. But:

    1) I don’t want to hear it from a privileged white dude. Privileged people don’t get to critique liberation movements for oppressed groups they are not a part of, because they always and inevitably understand that oppression and how best to respond to it less well than an oppressed person who is actively trying to understand and respond to their own oppression. Preferential option for the oppressed, and whatnot. Listen. Help if you can. But leave the philosophizin’ and strategy to oppressed people.

    2) I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone other than a cis white guy with class privilege use the words “civility” and “rationality” unironically.

    3) Sometimes you aren’t calling someone an asshole because you are trying to exercise optimal strategy, like some sort of robot. Sometimes you are doing your best to cope with a despair-inducing situation, and anger is your last psychological straw–your way of avoiding despair. Privileged people don’t get to tell oppressed people what the acceptable means of avoiding despair are.

    1. The problem to me is that he conflates things that make privileged people feel uncomfortable with things that are dehumanizing and othering.

      Yes, I agree. And this automatically short-circuits the attempt to actually incite change, because in order for things to change privileged people need to be made to feel uncomfortable. (I include myself in that, re those axes on which I am privileged.) It’s a necessary part of fully grasping the injustice of the situation for the marginalized. The dehumanization and othering need to stop, which can only occur if the discomfort of the privileged continues, as long as is necessary to get us/them to stop being oppressive.

    1. I don’t think Fincke would claim that it should be. I think he would claim that the terms should be mutually decided by the parties involved in the discussion; and that either party attempting to leave that context basically chooses to end the discussion.

      1. How can anything be mutually decided, truly, when one party starts out with substantially more power than the other, and they both know it? Especially when the discussion itself is all about taking away some of that power and giving it to the less-powerful? The assumption that the decision can be mutual and fair requires an assumption of the very equality in power whose lack is the problem!

        1. Then what is the point of conversation? If it is just rhetoric, then it’s not a conversation, it’s a show.

          Either we are talking about a serious exchange of serious ideas, in which case any resort to insults should be avoided anyway; or we aren’t, in which case Fincke isn’t arguing against insults.

  13. My parents always said that if it can’t be expressed without profanity, then it shouldn’t be said at all.

    1. Ah, yes… Right up there with “if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all.” Nothing like a trite aphorism to silence a child.

      The thing is, oppression isn’t “nice” and calling out oppressors isn’t “nice” and the feelings that I have when I am confronted with oppression frequently do require profanity to properly express. “Polite” language cannot convey the depth of my feelings of powerlessness, anger, fear and my furious rejection of the oppression. The “polite” language used to disempower me is empowered because of who says it. In my mouth “polite” language becomes background noise. When I “use my inside voice” I am easily talked over.

      So I shout, and I swear and I make them uncomfortable. Because fuck them and their comfortable privilege.

      1. Yeah, but if someone starts out a conversation with me with something like “Hey, asshole!” (especially if it’s someone I don’t know) then I am not likely to take anything they say seriously and may even be inclined to oppose whatever it is the conversation-starter was advocating.

        1. A number of points:

          1) The context of this discussion is the use of profanity or rude or shocking expression by marginalized people in response to being marginalized. I don’t believe the context includes the concept of marching up to random privileged-looking-cis-white-dudes and saying “Hey Asshole,” unprovoked.

          2) Even the above example might be nonetheless useful, relevant, and appropriately expressive. Sometimes the person you are addressing is not necessarily the intended audience. When someone attempts to silence me, they have already indicated they will not hear my arguments, no matter how politely I articulate them. When I respond to silencing behaviors in others, loudly, with profanity, I am communicating to everyone, not just the silencer, that I will not be silenced. I am communicating that I can stand up to privilege. I am communicating to other marginalized people who may be in the vicinity that acquiescence is not the only option.

          3) If I call someone an asshole, it is because xe is being an asshole, if xe reacts poorly to that, that’s not actually my problem. It’s not my job to convince others to treat me with decency and respect. If they have already failed to treat me with decency and respect, then I will not afford xe courtesies that xe has not afforded me.

          4) If someone calls you an asshole you have an understandable emotional reaction. It doesn’t preclude you from also, maybe, considering why someone has just called you an asshole. Maybe it’s because you actually, in fact, are an asshole.

        2. I don’t think someone has to have relative privilege to be a jerk to be someone else. And I don’t think that only the less-privileged can call out the relatively more-privileged.

        3. “may even be inclined to oppose whatever it is the conversation-starter was advocating”

          Think hard about what you’re saying here. I get that it wouldn’t be pleasant to have someone talk to you in an aggressive or angry tone, but when we talk about marginalized people being angry in this post we’re talking about them being angry because people are trying to deny them basic rights.

          So do you really want to say that if you were, say, having a discussion with a marginalized person and they used a tone you didn’t like, you’d “be inclined” to OPPOSE THEIR RIGHTS just on principal?

          If so, you’re not a very good ally.

    2. Fuck that. Anger has a place in discussions, and pretending that one must silence anger in order to have a “proper” conversation doesn’t do anyone any good in the long run.

      1. Does anger necessarily need profanity?

        Like bhuesca, my mother always said that cursing was an unthinking form of expression. To her, it was a sign of disorganized thoughts or something unconsidered. I’ve realized since growing up that there’s a time and a place for swearing, a cultural linguistic context like any dialect, high or low. But her opinion isn’t a rare one, and any communication has to take the listener into account, right?

        There are plenty of ways to express anger within a civil context, though uncivil language can still communicate the idea faster and more directly.

        1. Sometimes cursing when you’re angry can be cathartic, yes, so maybe for some anger does need cursing. Regardless, it’s not up to the oppressor to decide what’s “needed” in discussions of oppression.

      2. Why should a discussion of oppression be on the terms of the oppressor?

        How is civility the terms of the oppressor, though? People have already pointed out the response to Fluke, and the spittle-spewing screams of pro-life demonstrators outside clinics. My mother, I think, bases part of her opinion on the response she got as a protester back in the 60s and early 70s. All very uncivil actions. Not to mention that oppression itself is inherently uncivil.

        The response to oppression should be done on the terms of the oppressed. It’s just a question of what those terms should be. I have no real right to present an opinion on it, since I am privileged, but I think, when the choice is available, civil discourse is better than uncivil.

        1. “Civility” is always defined by the oppressor. That’s one of the perks of being an oppressor–getting to define things. As I mentioned in the original post, in the case of Sandra Fluke, conservatives decided that calling her a slut was Completely Out Of Line!!! but that implying that she’s a slut is perfectly acceptable, and that any further response from her is just a request for more abuse. “What we do is acceptable, and what you do is unacceptable” is how the system is designed to keep oppressed people oppressed.

      3. I agree with you. Profanity feels pretty good and I hate the fact that there are lots of people out there that like to put certain words on the “naughty list” just because they are considered offensive to them. I just get such a puritanical vibe from the no cursing crowd. MAYBE its about context (but sometimes I just like to say ‘fuck’ just because), but if the context is responding to someone who is marginalizing you and denying you basic humanity? That’s the perfect context for profanity, even if you are generally against it (which I’m not). I just don’t see how someone can deny me profanity when they are saying that my marriage is illegitimate or that my child is less than their child because of the color of his skin. There is nothing in the world more hurtful than someone targeting you and/or your family (however one defines family). NOTHING. If calling someone an ignorant asshole hurts their feelings or ‘shuts down the discussion’ that is nothing compared to the feeling that you are arguing for the worth of your LIFE. And, as has been pointed out before, the ‘discussion’ is often shut down the moment the marginalized person opens their mouth to say anything at all in response.

    3. I would like to say, as an Australian commenter, we tend to casually swear a lot more than say, people in the US do. We do it often enough that a lot of the time we’re swearing just because the extra syllables alter the cadence of our sentences in pleasing ways. See “Time for some more goon!” being less aurally attractive than “Time for some more fucking goon!”

      1. Same here in the UK, especially in this region. “Fuck” is very versatile. Adjective, verb, and noun.

        It’s fucking cold up here, conversation needs to be quick and to the point. If someone shouts “Filthy d+kes!” at us, I’m not going to approach them to discuss the kyriarchal axes of oppression, and the nature of reflexive bigotry. I’m going to lob a “Fuck off! ” in their general.

        Sometimes simple catharsis does the job for me, and the response shuts them up for a minute. Some people are too insulated by privilege to realise the strain of constant microaggressions.

    4. The part you’re missing is that by the time people start cussing, it HAS been said without profanity. It’s been said at length and in pithy aphorisms, through emotional anecdotes and clinical statistics, re-phrased, paraphrased, translated into machine language and rendered into verse. And none of that worked, which is why people start cussing.

      1. The part you’re missing is that by the time people start cussing, it HAS been said without profanity. It’s been said at length and in pithy aphorisms, through emotional anecdotes and clinical statistics, re-phrased, paraphrased, translated into machine language and rendered into verse. And none of that worked, which is why people start cussing.

        QFT.

    5. My parents always said that if it can’t be expressed without profanity, then it shouldn’t be said at all.

      Really? Well, my parents swear all the time. So where does that leave us?

      Besides, as I probably would’ve said to my parents had they said anything like that, I can express myself without profanity. I just choose not to.

      1. My ex and I swear in front of my daughter all the damn time. She is very judicious with her invectives, at least in front of me, as I tend to reserve them for bigoted assholes.

  14. Fincke is a fucken philosopher, and as such is obsessed with “arguments” and “debates” and “clarification of terms” and all the other shitte that allows semantic masturbators like him to feel superior and smart. He isn’t comfortable with any context in which jizzing out longwinded treatises isn’t privileged.

    1. Fincke explicitly agrees.

      Calls for order and civility that operate within a moral, legal, or linguistic system that is inherently unjust are calls to surrender to an unjust system and should be resisted with civil disobedience or–if the oppressive regime is too physically violent–violent revolution as a last resort.

      1. That paragraph is meaningless when he is defending as just and reasonable a system or part of the system that itself is unjust and oppressive. The moral and linguistic system that requires the oppressed to set their anger and pain aside for the sake of their oppressors is fucking unjust.

        1. Is there any potential for meaningful conversation between individuals?

          If there is, then Fincke is saying those individuals should be doing their best in the course of that conversation to communicate meaningfully, and without intentional malice.

          If there isn’t, then Fincke says sure, go ahead and express your pain and anger, insult away, but be aware that you are not engaging in meaningful conversation.

        2. This is a false dichotomy. I’ve been in plenty of meaningful conversations that have included open expressions of pain and anger and sometimes even a few insults. Logical, dispassionate debate isn’t the only way that two people can communicate about an important topic in good faith.

          I believe that if someone is angry or hurt about something. . .the best way to effectively communicate one’s point is usually to express those emotions. . .not to suppress them in the interest of supposed rationality. I’m white, for example, and I don’t think I would’ve ever begun to understand how horrifically racism affects people of color if I hadn’t had my eyes forced open by hearing classmates or friends of color expressing their pain and anger. Another example: my mom lately is coming to understand how difficult it is for me to be transgender person living in a transphobic society–not by me calmly presenting a point-by-point analysis of all the struggles transgender people face (although I’ve tried to do that), but by the times I’ve snapped at her after she said something really offensive or broke down in tears as I remembered a difficult period in my past.

          So your apparent opinion that important ideas can only be communicated via logic and not via emotion is, I believe, completely bogus, contrary to my personal experience, and also counter to an accurate understanding of how human neurology and society works. For most people, emotions help us in communication and learning. . .they don’t hinder it.

        3. So your apparent opinion that important ideas can only be communicated via logic and not via emotion is, I believe, completely bogus

          I didn’t say “without emotion”, I said “without intentional malice”.

          No one is saying that you can’t have emotionally charged and yet productive conversations. Only that there is at least some context where insults for their own sake are not appropriate. Providing examples of some cases where they are doesn’t demonstrate that there are no cases where they are not.

      1. If an insult as mild as this is enough to make you think that, you weren’t much of an ally to begin with.

        There is this strange belief amongst the most privileged that those of us lacking privilege are all, always, actively evangelising, that we’re on a never-ending recruitment drive to get MOAR MEMBERS.

        Personally I’d rather have 5 allies that actually mean it than 500 that will hold their alliance hostage whenever they feel like it to try and control how I express myself.

  15. Fincke unashamedly cribs from “Derailing for Dummies” and reminds us that denigrating and dismissing others is what their side does, and that “trying to insult people into agreement or submission” makes us just as bad as they are. Because, evidently, calling ignorant douchebag Todd Akin an ignorant douchebag (rats) is on a level with fighting to take control of a woman’s body…

    I didn’t read Fincke as arguing that. He explicitly said that there are contexts where insulting is fine. He would be fine with you using this page to insult Todd Akin.

    I read Fincke as saying that there is at least some context where resort to personal insults is inappropriate. In a respectful debate, where each side considers it worthwhile to engage with the other, and is choosing to do so, and hopes to accomplish something worthwhile, and legitimately believes that the other side is also arguing in good faith, resorting to a personal insult accomplishes nothing, is not legitimate, and does not carry moral force.

    The earlier comment in this thread:

    Fincke is a fucken philosopher, and as such is obsessed with “arguments” and “debates” and “clarification of terms” and all the other shitte that allows semantic masturbators like him to feel superior and smart.

    is a great example. Yes, he IS a philosopher who is interested in formal debates without any emotional recourse. Declaring that you want emotional recourse doesn’t actually make an argument. And it never can. Fincke is going to do all he can to argue rationally and dispassionately, which is all anyone can do. He doesn’t see it as worth his time to engage with people who intentionally choose to be disrespectful for its own sake, and I still don’t see an argument that convinces me he should.

    1. Then he’s willfully choosing not to listen to people with reasons for being emotionally charged (pretty easy to be dispassionate about stuff that doesn’t effect you) because it doesn’t fit his tidy idea of proper intellectual discourse. That’s pretty ridiculous and lacking in empathy. When it’s impersonal for you and personal for the other party, you take that into consideration in order to continue the discussion and your own understanding. It would, in fact, be the most rational thing to do. This is social skills 101.

      1. He’s choosing not to listen to people who cannot or will not refrain from direct personal insults. That is quite a bit different than “emotionally charged”. Fincke isn’t saying that you can’t get upset. He’s saying that if you can’t control your being upset to the point where you are personally attacking the person across from you, you have given up talking about the issues, and there isn’t a moral imperative for the other person to continue talking to you.

        We aren’t talking about drastic, inhuman stoicism. We are talking about a basic adult level of self-control.

    2. The idea that he, a privileged person, gets to define in which contexts an insult or other expression of anger and pain is ‘appropriate’ is the problem. That’s not his to decide; it’s for the marginalized to decide. But the entire implicit point of his article is to claim the power to define those contexts – otherwise he would shut up and trust that marginalized people know how to do it for themselves, leading to no article.

    3. It’s easy to be rational and dispassionate when the issues being discussed do not affect you personally.

      Intellectual wanking about the nature of oppression is all well and good when you’re not oppressed. Dissecting the effect of the denial of rights of marginalised groups can, no doubt, feel very productive, the views expressed can even seem novel and inspiring, as long as you’re not on the receiving end.

      Those imbued with privilege can have their rational discussion, shake hands, and switch off. People who feel the crushing weight of oppression constantly cannot switch off. It’s not an intellectual exercise, or fun debate club sparring, it’s reality.

      Seeing people toss it around as a way of filling time, or handing out (what they believe are) novel. solutions to the myriad problems of marginalised groups is more than annoying.

      There’s a disability activism maxim, “Nothing about us without us”. Minority groups are not children. We don’t need, or care for, the pontification of oppressor classes. We’ve heard every suggestion, every solution, and every glib platitude before.

      Fincke is using classic silencing tactics and there’s just no getting away from that.

      1. Word. If you’re not listening to the marginalized people responding to you, you’re doing being-an-ally wrong.

        1. That’s why I’m not an ally any more. Although I do still listen. It would be stupid to not avail myself of information. But I will not trouble myself to justifiy my machinations. When they are done, I will see whether you are happier or less happy.

    4. As I said, Daniel Fincke is certainly welcome to his comments policy on his blog. If he wants to declare that all comments starting with pronouns will be deleted, that’s his call. The problem isn’t that he wants to define discourse for his area but that he’s trying to prescriptively define discourse at a universal level. It’s not just a matter of him not wanting to engage with disrespectful people; he’s giving a list of reasons why people should never be disrespectful, and that’s a different story entirely. The world outside his blog doesn’t sit politely to hear silenced people make rational arguments. That’s where the silenced part comes from. And at the risk of making unfounded assumptions, I have to wonder if someone who can’t seem to recognize his own privilege in the matter would be able to recognize silencing if he saw it happen.

      1. He’s a philosopher, they all think they are the center of the universe, as such they may not be careful distinguishing between their controllable realms and the universe at large. Not saying it’s right, just saying it’s a predictable personality quirk

    5. I read Fincke as saying that there is at least some context where resort to personal insults is inappropriate. In a respectful debate, where each side considers it worthwhile to engage with the other, and is choosing to do so, and hopes to accomplish something worthwhile, and legitimately believes that the other side is also arguing in good faith, resorting to a personal insult accomplishes nothing, is not legitimate, and does not carry moral force

      Uh, I doubt anybody here would argue with this too much. I mean, really, if you’re having a respectful debate, with full engagement by both parties, working towards something worthwhile…. then yeah, sure, probably using intemperate language isn’t going to be useful.

      Note this scenario explicitly claims that the oppressed party in this debate actually views the debate this way, which… yeah, that’s great! Kudos to the debaters! Ponies for everyone!

      But, as the OP says:

      Show me a “justly and ethically carried out debate” that fully accommodates a marginalized group’s disadvantage.

      Bueller? Bueller?

  16. Fincke is going to do all he can to argue rationally and dispassionately, which is all anyone can do

    That’s the thing. It is not all that anyone can do. Declaring one sort of method of discourse the only proper and effective one is silencing.

    There is something between civility and violent overthrow. Incivility is one of the options. Being civil to those who are uncivil to you doesn’t give you any kind of high ground. It’s playing directly into the game.

    Anyway, no one’s saying that Finke should try out other methods of discourse, just that maybe he shouldn’t get so high handed about how others communicate their feelings and reactions to marginalization and oppression.

    He doesn’t see it as worth his time to engage with people who intentionally choose to be disrespectful for its own sake, and I still don’t see an argument that convinces me he should.

    I think it’s more people being disrespectful because the people they’re addressing are undeserving of respect. They have lost their right to be treated with civility and respect by being disrespectful and uncivil.

    This whole argument of Finke’s reeks of punching down, lecturing from a position of privilege and telling the marginalized how they ought to behave. It’s gross. It’s always been gross. It’s been used since the dawn language against marginalized people and it’ll forever be gross.

    1. I mean that it is all anyone can do to within the context of a particular discussion. Right here for example, all you and I can do is attempt to understand each other and respond where we see sources of disagreement.

      Declaring one sort of method of discourse the only proper and effective one is silencing.

      I’m not sure what to do with this. There’s a difference between “the one method of discourse” and “discourse that attempts to discover truth”. Eventually we have to agree that we are talking about SOMETHING or why ever discuss anything?

      1. I wouldn’t bother if I were you msgd. Regardless of who is right, you aren’t going to convince anyone or receive answers which are any more helpful than screw privileged white dudes.

        Your reading of the post is clearly entirely different from the regular posters here and as such you are talking past each other arguing about things the other person didn’t say.

      2. The conversations we’re talking about isn’t about discovering truth. Unless you’re suggesting that those who oppress have some “true” reasons for oppressing that ought to be heard out and considered.

        We are discussing something; we’re discussing whether it’s “appropriate” to use invective when a marginalized person is responding to the actions and arguments of those who marginalize and oppress.

        No one should have to convince someone else to treat xir with common human decency. There’s no “truth” to discover here. The truth is that marginalized people experience death and deprivation by a million tiny cuts and by massive horrendous blows. And in the face of all that, demanding that we be civil to those who do this to us is is to rub shit in the wound.

        It’s the infection that kills you.

        1. No one should have to convince someone else to treat xir with common human decency. There’s no “truth” to discover here. The truth is that marginalized people experience death and deprivation by a million tiny cuts and by massive horrendous blows. And in the face of all that, demanding that we be civil to those who do this to us is is to rub shit in the wound.

          It’s the infection that kills you.

          QFFT.

          Also the notion that the only way to get at “truth” is by being dispassionate and calm and logical already sets aside the possibility that the anger and pain of the oppressed are themselves truths worth hearing. It’s not a fucking abstract problem to be solved; it’s immediate and continuing pain for whole classes of people. That’s the fucking point.

        2. The conversations we’re talking about isn’t about discovering truth.

          That is exactly the kind of conversation that Fincke is talking about though: the kind that happens between two mutually respectful people attempting to reach a common understanding.

          He says numerous times that insults have places, and are perfectly legitimate in various circumstances. He is just trying to say that there is at least some conceivable space in which personal attacks are not helpful or appropriate.

  17. “You fucking god damn no good cuntbag”

    Damn that was hard to type, but it gets the point across. The atheism movement has been hit with a wave of sexist vile and vitriol, while he may have failed at articulating it, his policy will prevent slurs and slander from sidetracking discussions. This is not only his right, but his responsibility. Personal insults do nothing to further comment based conversations and more often then not, encourage people no to join in on the communication. Furthermore, this statement of non-tolerance is exactly what we need to get Natalie Reed and Jen McCreight back.

    1. You do understand the difference between a privileged person using oppressive language, and an oppressed person calling out their oppression angrily, don’t you? And that Fincke’s post is explicitly aimed at oppressed people not being “civil” enough towards their oppressors? It’s not about calling out the sort of oppressive language you use as an example. Based on your comment you fail at reading comprehension.

        1. What, using insulting language? No, not really – because the oppressed will be insulted by their oppressors regardless of how ‘civil’ they are, regardless of what language they themselves use. That’s part of the goddamn oppression. And if it were a ‘double-edged sword’ like you suggest, if it were the case that oppressive language were brought out only in response to ‘uncivil’ language from the oppressed, that’s no reason to defend it. Telling someone that they must ask nicely to please have some rights, or they might be verbally abused, is emotional abuse and extortion. It’s also victim-blaming.

        2. You seem to be under the misunderstanding that a blog is a public space. If it were your comments would be perfectly valid, and I would defend them. A blog however is not a public space.

        3. A blog however is not a public space.

          Which is why Fincke is free to dictate the standards for discussion on his blog. But he went further and spoke about civility in a broader sense, beyond what can and cannot be done on his blog to what should and should not be done in general discourse.

        4. I know what a fucking public space is, and it is irrelevant here. Victim-blaming language is victim-blaming language regardless of where it is spoken; the public space aspect would only be relevant if the question were Fincke’s legal right to engage in it. But that’s not the question. The question is the nature of his statements, including the moral rightness of them. He’s free to set his comment policy however he likes; on his blog he’s also free to tell oppressed people to ask nicely for respect and not be so damned uncivil about being hurt. Doesn’t mean it’s not abusive, oppressive behavior.

    2. wait so this whole discussion is about athiests being the subject of profanity leveled at them by members of another marginalized group(s)? I thought atheists were marginalized…what is this the oppression olympics – do more marginalized groups get to use profanity towards less marginalized groups – can I get a chart? I need to know where I fall so I can start cursing at the right people. Maybe we should all just start swearing at each other.

      1. Atheists are marginalized but much less marginalized than they were a few years ago. White atheists are the least marginalized of all, of course. If we didn’t have religion passing privilege we would be having a horrible time compared to what we do have.

        Atheism has for a while been kind of a white guy’s club because those are the people most liekly to be the scholars who could figure out the atheist truth in the first place. Not suprisingly it is now having inclusivity fail.

        A bigger problem is that a whole bunch of idiots who are smart enough to figure out that God does not exist but not smart enough to not be sexist and racist are joining up. Some of them think that they can yell ‘SCIENCE’ and justify whatever based on evo-psych or whatever. (I ssupect they are not real scientists.)

        1. The media likes to distort science, and so do ideologically motivated scientists. I’ve grown weary of seeing evo-psych abused by the media and ideologically biased scientists to justify a societal problem. Some people here poo poo evo-psych way too much. There is a lot of good data out there explaining the median behavior of societies under certain/current conditions, that of course is not to be confused with the idea that people SHOULD behave a certain way and that data is being ignored. Science should limit itself to studying WHY a median group of people behave a certain way and leave the SHOULD to the ethicists.

          Here’s an example of some good science on mate selection norms among heterosexuals and the way they have changed due to increased equality:

          http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/releases/gender-equality-influences-how-people-choose-their-partners.html

  18. I like Fincke’s blog, although I don’t always understand what he’s talking about. I think his commenting policy is his own business. What I notice is that it seems to be an ‘ideas’ blog more than a ‘social justice’ blog, so he may have different priorities, as msgd touched upon.

    The way I see it the substance of an argument and the way its presented are two different things. Just because something is presented agreeably doesn’t make it correct and even if someone says something in a way you find objectionable doesn’t make it wrong.

    I think when talking about how we communicate, there IS room for context and ultimately it comes down to pragmatics–not so much about what is right, but what is effective.

    The last thing I thought was also that there’s something to be said for people being true to themselves too. I thought Greta Christina’s article on “Letting Firebrands be Firebrands and Diplomats be Diplomats” put it nicely.

    1. I like Fincke’s blog, although I don’t always understand what he’s talking about. I think his commenting policy is his own business. What I notice is that it seems to be an ‘ideas’ blog more than a ‘social justice’ blog, so he may have different priorities, as msgd touched upon.

      Philosophy is only as useful as the effort put into actualizing it.

      The way I see it the substance of an argument and the way its presented are two different things. Just because something is presented agreeably doesn’t make it correct and even if someone says something in a way you find objectionable doesn’t make it wrong.

      Absolutely! People need to learn to identify and call out the BS presented in a way designed to exhaust the person challenging it. Also the correct thing presented in the same way. Is it a technically self-refuting as a strategy? Yes, but it is meant for extraordinary circumstances, which I would argue minority bloggers deal with all the time.

  19. The only remotely good argument I’ve heard for not swearing was “profanity and obscenity entitle people who don’t want unpleasant information to close their ears and eyes to you”.

    However, take that with a grain of salt, as it did come from a presumably straight, white, male. And in these types of debates, the eyes and ears of the marginalizers have likely already been closed long ago. But it does give people who already don’t want to listen reason to derail away from the into “But you don’t have to be so MEAN about it, blah blah my hurt feelings blah blah all about me, the oppressor and my hurt fee fees and what were we talking about again?”

    1. And why do we want to chase after the people who don’t want to listen, again? It’s not the responsibility of the marginalized to make sure their marginalizers grow up; it’s the responsibility of the latter to grow the fuck up by themselves.

  20. It’s interesting, I asked him about the very real situation where Blaghag felt the need to stop blogging, and her father became the target of her abusers. I left a very challenging and relevant comment after wading in and proceeding to heap what I see as justified abuse on the abusing posters. He has not had anything to say about that yet.
    http://kingmccreight.blogspot.se/2012/09/learn-some-civility.html#comment-647139131

    Honestly, I don’t need the eye bleach. I’m a guy, from a military fundamentalist christian family. I don’t have the layers of experience that cause trauma from massive doses of this. I’ve basically decided to mime Hitchens as best as I can in attitude from now on.

    I know the shit that causes people to act like this either first or second hand, and I’m really good with research. I have no sympathy for what is essentially an attitude based on: cherry-picking and stereotype, willful ignorance, distorted second-hand narratives, and good old fashioned “The way I was raised is sacrosanct”. Fuck pretending to care for the quality of their opinions anymore. They are allowed to have them, but I don’t have to pretend that they are anything more than utter crap.

    There were two goals, emotional suppression, and unreasonable portrayals of positions designed to exhaust the persons trying the reasonable approach. Why should the person on the defense have to be in the position of wading through that crap? Until the “tone” gets to the level where people being targeted with comments about abuse and rape can feel that they are being heard and understood, I don’t give a fuck about the feelings of some other guys.

  21. Fincke is kind of a tool.

    But the thing about profanity as social policing is that it goes both ways. A comment policy that allows profanity lets a marginalized person call a bigot an “asshole,” but it also allows the bigot to respond in kind. A comment policy that bans profanity takes that weapon away from them both.

    You might say, then, that the bigot has lots of alternate weapons to use. But even if you allow profanity, the bigot still is better-armed than the marginalized person. Does profanity really help us THAT much?

    I really don’t know about that. I know that I oppose commenting policies that strictly enforce “civility” because sometimes telling an important truth is uncivil. But I can’t think of a situation where profanity is really necessary to tell an important truth.

    I can think of situations where a marginalized person gets rightly angry, and curses out of that anger, because an oh-so-civil bigot keeps on politely and “reasonably” calling them a sub-human. And I would never blame that marginalized person at all, or ban them for it if I was a mod. But I also don’t know if the profanity makes her/his point any better than some other word would.

    1. I think a personal example would go perfectly here. Early on in my days commenting on this blog I took an opposing opinion to Jill. Everyone assumed I was a troll, yet those that chose to continue the civil portion of the debate gave me enough information for my thinking to change. A couple weeks later, after much thought, my position reversed to more closely align with the things I value, personal agency in this case.

      Just thought you would like to know that sometimes civility does work. I have yet to see a single success from namebashing.

      1. In my experience, “bashing” type behavior tends to start after whoever has the opposing opinion has proven themselves to be a bigot who isn’t going to change their tune, or has shown they’re just there to JAQ-off, play “devil’s advocate” for fun, etc. I’ve rarely seen someone who seemed civil and actually willing to listen and learn get piled on.

        If someone gets rightly piled on for being bigoted and obviously unwilling to listen, I have a hard time feeling sad that we didn’t “help them come around” or change their minds. Maybe some people aren’t worth wasting our time trying to change their minds.

        1. In my experience once bashing starts, the conversation is gone. It is rare that any benefit can be found in comments following the first punch (no matter who threw it). I can be as guilty of it as anyone, but that does not make it right.

        2. I’ve rarely seen someone who seemed civil and actually willing to listen and learn get piled on.

          I’ve seen this happen a few times–not most of the time, but more often than “rarely.”

          It’s unfortunate when it does. Usually the genuinely-civil, willing-to-learn person is asking about some topic about which there are many faux-civil people.

          My usual habit is to be civil for the first and second exchange or so, and then, if the person exhibits doubling-down rather than any considered thought (I don’t mean they have to totally agree with me, but at least acknowledge my point), I’ll know they’re not worth engaging with. Even though it’s not our job to educate people, it can sometimes be helpful (and low-effort) to simply link them to something and say “Read this, then you’ll get it.”

          If they’re genuine, they’ll respond by saying, “Thanks for the link, will check it out.” And then they’ll go away and actually read it.

        3. Lyanna, no it isn’t your job to educate, but I am wondering if you find pleasure in knowing you have done so? In other circles I am the expert, not the person learning, and while it takes a great power to suspend my ego, watching the change in people as they ‘get it’ is so rewarding.

          I have been piled on before and I am a strong enough person to take it. Every time I read some comment about someone delurking from the comments to issue a quiet thank you I wonder if that person would have commented earlier if there were a lower risk of pile-on. If maybe the conversation would become a little more important or informative if they too were involved.

        4. @Icaarus:

          I’m going to engage you in good faith here, even though your comments are to be honest rubbing me the wrong way. And I want to make clear that I’m speaking from the perspective, not only of someone who is marginalized in some ways, but also who is privileged in some ways and has gone through the sort of fear of being piled on and quiet lurking in those discussions (rather than asking questions I was struggling with) that you seem to me to be alluding to. I *get* that fear of being dismissed with insults, angry words, etc. I also get some of why people get angry in those discussions.

          Yes, it’s possible that if a given conversation were gentler a certain privileged commentator or commentators might have engaged earlier. The thing is, 99.99999999999% of the time, their questions aren’t new questions, overall. Someone somewhere else has already gone through that process of learning, someone marginalized has taken the effort to spell out (usually again and again) exactly what is wrong with X, Y and Z. The privileged would-be commentator? Has Google available, and if they really do *care* about the feelings of the marginalized, will use it to see if they can find answers elsewhere first, rather than issue a demand for education to someone right now, who is already clearly dealing with enough shit from trolls. Even if they aren’t at all sure that it might have been answered elsewhere, they will *check* first, to avoid putting a greater burden upon an oppressed person unnecessarily. Wading into a space in which oppressed people are dealing with shit, and are clearly hurting from it, and demanding to have *them* answer questions, *right now,* instead of using Google? Is fucking disrespectful.

          There are multiple spaces with varying degrees of ‘civility’ in which a privileged person can learn about oppression, on their own time, if ever. An oppressed person does not have the luxury of multiple spaces and times away from the shit flung at them and in which they can be angry always being available. They have only the spaces they carve out for themselves by dint of great effort. Due to this fundamental imbalance, the feelings of a given privileged commentator in a given thread are not the most important thing. They have the choice to disengage, or to engage and deal with their discomfort. If they are banned, even mistakenly, from a feminist/etc. space it’s not IMHO nearly as great an injury as that they inflict even unwittingly upon the marginalized people they have demanded education from or told to not express their anger.

          There *should* be spaces in which precisely the sort of angry, ‘hostile’ response Fincke decries can exist, because marginalized people are people, who deserve the space to express their real and ongoing pain, anger, and unwillingness to shut up and play nice. A privileged person does not get to wade into such a space (their own choice, I would point out) and demand that the hurt people there be polite and not say anything that might make them uncomfortable. Nor, in fact, do they get to decree the terms in which marginalized people respond directly to incidents of being oppressed, anywhere, ever. To do so is to continue being oppressive.

        5. I recommend this for people who don’t care to be directly confrontational, but not tolerant enough to get into discussions with people who have dumbass and patronizing questions.

          A bit passive aggressive, yes. But if someone is going to be all disingenuous with their questions, I don’t see how they don’t deserve some bullshit back at them.

  22. I think if a marginalized person believed that a listener is listening to hir in good faith zie would be less inclined to use invectives. However, we usually can tell when someone isn’t going to give a rat’s ass about what we say about how we are marginalized by that individual person, regardless about how we say it, so why the fuck should we be unable to vent our spleen against them? I would much rather think that I was some strident feminist who was rude and disrespectful than have to spend days and days wasting my time trying to gently convince someone to come around to my way of thinking that never was going to in the first place.

    1. Word. Also add in the fact that, in attempting to have a conversation with a privileged person about something marginalizing they’ve just done to [general] you, you are in that very moment being hurt by them, and are hurt again with every denial or evasion. Trying to be civil then requires ignoring your own pain while someone is sticking knives in you at the same time as trying not to hurt their ego-feelings in the process of asking them, kindly to stop. It’s impossible to not sometimes lose it in those circumstances and just be harsh: you’re in pain and you want the other person to know it!

        1. Thanks. The subject hit close to home for me, it seems. But you and quite a few others have been making very excellent points too.

  23. We have run this experiment.

    “If you’d said it nicely I would have listened,” is, in many cases, a demonstrable lie. Because it had been said nicely to exactly that person, and they not only didn’t listen, they didn’t even remember the conversation. Until someone started cussing.

    We have run this experiment, but the consistent, oft-reproduced results don’t count. The investigators are not straight able-bodied white guys, you see, so the “experimental evidence” is just a lot of anecdotes. All isolated occurences. There is no pattern. Couldn’t be. So we should substitute their judgment for our own, do what keeps *them* feeling safe and comfortable, and under no circumstances fail to be civil.

    Fuck that.

    1. The investigators are not straight able-bodied white guys, you see, so the “experimental evidence” is just a lot of anecdotes.

      And the fact that they are not cis straight able-bodied white dudes in fact inherently renders their view suspect, if not immediately dismissible, because they aren’t “objective;” they’re “too close” to the subject and their subjectivity makes their opinion wrong. Gah!!

    2. Yep!

      I usually operate under a “three strikes” system.

      If I butt up against someone who appears just naive, but genuinely willing to learn then I’ll give a detailed, friendly answer.

      If they reject that, and start with “But…” and trying to justify bigotry, or use “fault on both sides” then I’ll coolly state the points again, trying to point out why the “But” is offensive.

      Third time of asking, of failing to grasp even basic concepts, and repeating the same lines? They’re into JAQ-off territory. Time for my not-quite-human self to lay down some truths.

      When you’ve already been relegated to partial human status, on account of perceived flaws, you’re aware that the privileged hardly give a fuck about equality.

      They’re all comfy and snug in their advantage blankets. They don’t want the awareness of how awful it is for those of us shivering under torn sheets. They don’t want to huddle up with us and share.

      Sometimes they think we’re trying to steal their blankets, but we’re not, we’re trying to make things warner so we don’t need them in the first place.

      They don’t lose anything if everyone is designated fully human. We all win, we can live and work together without the constant stress, fear, and pain.

      If only.

      1. Do you have a blog Partial Human? I hope you do because I’d love to read it. I normally agree with most the stuff you say, and I wish I could say it as well as you do. That blanket metaphor is top notch.

        1. Thank you! My cheeks have gone quite pink.

          No blog, I’m too dizzy. Thanks to a combination of ADD and some brain stuff, I start things and I never finish them!

          I’m the type of person who puts the oven on, gets distracted by a shiny or an internet debate, and three hours later wonders “Why am I so wheezy? Is Paul next door burning rubbish? Oh SHITTING FUCK!”

          So I just drift around the intertubes dispensing my blanketty wisdom.

          Thanks to. MXE too!

        2. Hehe. . .well I suppose if it’s a matter of either blogging or not asphyxiating yourself, then I’ll have to be content with merely reading your blanketty wisdom on here! Keep being your awesome self. 🙂

  24. @moviemaedchen

    I am moving this out of the place you chose to put it because frankly, while you may be trying to “engage in good faith” doing what you just did, take a conversation about the positive aspects of engaging, and choosing that place to inject your questions is quite rude to Lyanna and Katnis. So I am moving it to it’s own thread area.

    “You asshat grandbitch teabagging cunt you have no fucking Idea what the fuck I am trying to talk about. ”

    See that, that does not help the conversation. It doesn’t help anyone. the only thing it does is feed the trolls. If you don’t like the questions, don’t answer them. No I am not victim blaming. I think trolls are the scum of the earth. But while there are many aspects that are very googleable, it took me reading Natalie Reed for a year to see how privileged my privilege really is. I am not saying to never stand up for yourself. I am saying “Stay on Target”. I’m not saying don’t get angry. Get Fucking ANGRY. Yell at your computer screen. Bitch to your friends over a drink. Hell PM me and cuss me out in an email. But derailing a conversation does a disservice to the oppressed more than the oppressors. That reason alone should be enough to convince you that a certain level of discretion is important.

    1. Moderator: Please delete my last, on further thought I am obviously not adding much to the discussion, which I will admit is due primarily to a difference in definitions for commonly used words. I would hate to spiral a conversation away from it’s original intent any more than it already (partly my fault) has.

  25. Why should the privileged be given the benefit of being shielded from the emotional responses that oppression elicits in the marginalised? It might be uncomfortable to be confronted with the effects of your bigotry, but isn’t that the point?

    To a privileged person, discussing oppression may feel emotionally neutral, but to a marginalised person it’s not. Expecting the same level of civility places a far heavier burden on the marginalised person and forces them to play by rules that are defined from the perspective of the privileged.

    1. Precisely!

      I’m white. I grew up in an area with no POC. I went to school for six years before I shared a classroom with someone who wasn’t white. My secondary school of 1200 pupils never had more than four POC attending.

      It wasn’t until college (16-18) that I actually worked alongside a WOC.

      Result? Naivety, ignorance, and stuffed full of white privilege. I was about 21 when I first encountered the power+privilege definition. I was shocked, I wasn’t racist! I wasn’t privileged! I was resistant to accept it.

      It took a call-nut, and a link to Peggy McIntoshes “Unpacking the invisible knapsack” before it sank in.

      Without that I don’t know how I’d be now. Did it hurt, make me feel flushed and embarrassed to be called out? Of course it did. But it was nowhere near the shit dished out constantly to POC. I needed that short, sharp, shock to show me how toxic privilege is.

      Being honest end truthful is what it is. If that embarrasses someone, if it makes them feel bad, then it’s up to them to examine why the truth hurts so much.

      1. Being honest end truthful is what it is. If that embarrasses someone, if it makes them feel bad, then it’s up to them to examine why the truth hurts so much.

        THIS.

  26. I have run into this mindset a few times (usually, though not exclusively, among white male skeptical progressives), and it nearly always seems simultaneously tied to a belief that the point of social activism is to change everyone’s minds.

    This, to me, is *not* the point of activism. At least not mine. In my experience and from my observations of the world, at least, I don’t think this is plausible or necessary. I’m not interested in convincing every person to join my cause. I’m interested in convincing *enough* people, particularly people who are motivated based on the ideals they have already embraced, to recognize that the world’s current state is not actually in concert with the ideals they already embrace. It is much easier to do that then to change someone’s deeply-held values about how the world ought to work.

    And, frankly, sometimes a little passion and even profanity have been helpful to me in convincing someone that the world is not as they thought it was. It certainly was for me – the depth of pain, anger, hurt, and sorrow that were expressed to me by marginalized people (and my growing awareness of my own pain, anger, hurt and sorrow that I had been putting off as “personal” without realizing that I was not alone and that it was *not* inevitable or “just how things are”) were what helped turn my head and open my eyes.

    No amount of passion OR calmly stated logic has ever been enough for me to change someone’s mind on what they think the world *should* be. And the people who have asked me to “tone down my rhetoric” are invariably the people who want me to cater to their every hypothetical and prove invariably to them something they have no interest in even entertaining as plausible, to beat me by wasting my time and energy and then just walking away. True allies work for themselves – they do not ask marginalized people or other allies to work for them.

    I will admit, sometimes my anger has gone toxic on me. But so has my civility. One flays me open, the other one chokes and suffocates me.

    Anger is not about persuasion (though it is not necessarily always unpersuasive). Sometimes it is about burning out an infection with a high fever. Or keeping up a fire as a signal to friends, a warning to enemies, and a warm place for the weary to gather around. Sometimes anger is what keeps us going when nothing else will.

    1. I didn’t finish my thought… I think the *point* of activism is to challenge the status quo and shift the structures of power. While sometimes having the support of the masses can do this, it’s not always necessary to have every single person on board that you can. Quality counts, I think more than quantity. Quality lasts longer and does more with less. That’s why I don’t think it’s a problem if activism sometimes alienates, especially when the people being alienated weren’t likely to genuinely help or participate anyway, which is my experience. It does vary from context to context and I think co-operative relationships are good, but only when they aren’t taking more in compromise then they are giving in progress, which is too often the case.

      1. Jadey, I love these comments soo much I will bake them my biggest batch of internet cookies and crochet them a matching tea cozy.

        The older I get, the less I care about changing hearts and minds. I just want to change the BEHAVIORS. The notion you have to do the first to get the second presumes *willing change*, but some days, I will just TAKE reluctant or resentful shutting the fuck up, yanno?

        1. The older I get, the less I care about changing hearts and minds. I just want to change the BEHAVIORS.

          I wish more people adopted this philosophy SO much! I personally hold very dear the idea that I don’t want to stop bigots from being bigots or racists from being racists, because everybody has a different idea of what those words mean. I just want to come up with more commonly accepted set of social rules that allow people to stay out of each others way as much as possible.

          The idea that somebody who believes that abortion is murder is “simply incorrect and needs to have their core belief changed” is VERY invasive and the idea that somebody should be attacked and punished for something they believe irks me even more. The point of tolerance is to find a way to stay tolerant of other people’s beliefs (how ever wacky you may think they are) but still be able to DO what you want, right?

    2. Can I frame this, or leaflet people with it, or give you an award or something? Because this is beautifully expressed, and so so true. Thank you.

      (I want to add something about learning to establish a real relationship with anger, but the thought isn’t fully formed yet, so it may have to wait a bit. But I think you touched on something really important in your paragraph about anger especially.)

    3. Jadey, would it be alright if I quote your last paragraph (“Anger is not about persuasion…”) on my Facebook page? I’ve got some friends who are scolding people about getting “emotional” whom I think would understand the value of anger the way you have explained it here.

  27. Any policy that has forbidden colourful insults like ‘asshole’ and ‘douchebag’ has effectively sucked all vitality out of the language. Some ideas merit strong expression. Forcing a marginalized party to use anemic language hamstrings their ability to most effectively communicate, in a situation where they already face unacceptable disadvantage. The policy is bullshit.

  28. Right, so if some guy tells me I’m subhuman who doesn’t deserve rights, and I say that belief makes him an asshole (which it does), then I’ve ceded the “high ground” to him. Uh huh. Riiiiiiight.

    Pardon my French, but that is one fucking stupid double standard of a commenting policy. Why is it that the marginalized people being shit on in a conversation are always the ones whose expressions get policed? Why not make it the shitty dehumanizing “arguments” that bigots make that aren’t welcome?

    1. Yes, exactly. And the mindset I occasionally detect that the only way to avoid actual oppressive language is to ban all “uncivil” language, of all kinds, is fucked up and flawed. There is a key difference between, for example, calling someone an asshat and calling them a cunt: rectal haberdashers are not a marginalized class of people, and so the negative implications of the insult do not add to the real oppression of actual people. Women and other vagina-bearing folk are marginalized, so making an insult out of a feature of their anatomy? Is inherently marginalizing. Anyone who bothers to apply the least bit of thought to the question could see that banning oppressive language =/= banning all insults or expressions of anger. Of course, this isn’t Fincke’s concern, because he’s explicitly and directly telling marginalized folk not to show their anger, but it’s a related mindset.

  29. Another thing that bugs me: holding up MLK as the one acceptable discourse model is really REALLY side-eye worthy, because what Fincke glosses over out is that that model doesn’t just require “assiduously maintaining the high ground” as a means for change. It very specifically requires that the dominant class of people attack and hurt you in horrifying and shocking ways (so that third party members of the dominant class will see it happening and be shocked and horrified. That’s really the crucial thing that makes this model work. “High ground” alone, as we’ve seen from all recorded history, does pretty much zilch.) So when you as a privileged person say that’s how the unprivileged ought to effect change, you’re basically saying we have to be attacked and hurt in horrifying and shocking ways over and over and over again… because anything else would be “uncivil.”

  30. Here’s the thing about charges of bigotry: They’re easily pushed aside with the word but. Three letters can change the course of the conversation. “I’m not homophobic, but I believe that gay people shouldn’t be allowed to adopt.” And unless you’re being interviewed by Samantha Bee, the interlocutor never responds, “Are you sure you’re not homophobic?” I’m not homophobic, but is sufficient to fuel a respectful and reasonable discussion, as if but takes homophobia off the table and makes the argument automatically worthy of examination. “I’m not a misogynist, but I think society is collapsing because women aren’t focused on being good mothers.” Sure, let’s talk about those shitty moms. “I’m not a racist, but.” Oh, well, that settles it, then.

    I’m not exactly sure what you are getting at here. Are you actually suggesting that people buy the bit after the ‘but’?

    I assumed that everyone knew that no one in the entire universe starts a sentence with ‘I’m not a racist,’ unless they’re about to say something racist and therefore would be even more dismissive of anything said after the ‘but.’ If someone starts a sentence with ‘I’m not a sexist,’ they’re going to say something sexist. If someone starts a sentence with ‘it’s not about the money,’ it’s about the money, and if someone starts a sentence with ‘With respect,’ you can be damn sure they’re going to say something disrespectful.

  31. Sometimes words like “asshole” are necessary just because the are the truest way to express what is wrong with a particular belief or behavior. For example, I think that most sexism and anti-choice ideology comes from a place of simple unkindness, and for people who are not heavily invested in those beliefs, pointing them out in as simple a way as possible can be effective. A lot of people are going to think you are being far too philosophical or “PC” when you say “I find your actions to be misogynistic,” but sometimes they hear you when you say “dude, don’t be an asshole.”

  32. To the extent that speech is an expression of the way things are, speech that does not do justice to the magnitude of the way things are is insufficient speech. That’s where uncivil language comes in– sometimes, uncivil language best expresses the true nature and reality of the oppression at hand. Because the latter is so powerful, speech that fully expresses it can only be uncivil speech and it, too, is powerful.

    On the other hand, I do think there can be cases where uncivil speech is inappropriate– where the substance of what is being discussed is not enough to warrant it. That’s going to inevitably be subjective to some degree, and whether such speech is successful or not often just depends on the mood of the majority of people at the time.

    1. I agree with your first paragraph. RE your second paragraph, I just have to say this:

      I get what you’re trying to say here, and that you aren’t being deliberately hostile. Also, I don’t know what your privileges/marginalizations are, so if I’m off-base and reading you as more privileged than you are, I’m sorry. But the thing that I can’t help but hear, every time someone brings up (even well-meaningly) “but there are places/times where it’s not appropriate!” is the unspoken “and marginalized people can’t be trusted to know/decide for themselves what those places and times are.” That’s the polite version, anyway.

      Marginalized people know that situations vary, and are capable of analyzing those situations and responding how they feel is appropriate. In fact, they are the closest thing to fucking experts that exists on how to respond to oppression and privilege, because they do it every damned day. Will they always respond perfectly? No – not because they are marginalized, but because they are human and every human being fucks up now and then. But overall, they can tell what they are dealing with and who they are talking to, and they do not need instruction from privileged “philosophers” in how to behave.

      They do not need to be reminded, again and again, that some situations require different language and approaches than others. The compulsive need to remind them of this that I see displayed in this thread and in Fincke’s post to me speaks of nothing so much as, on the part of the privileged, a fundamental lack of trust in the marginalized to do their own damn deciding about what is and is not appropriate, where. And with a moment’s inspection the implied “You might get it Wrong!” very quickly reveals itself to be nothing more than a concern-trolling cover for “You might make someone [privileged] Uncomfortable!”

      It also echoes the racist, colonialist notion that some people just need to be “civilized” by the benevolent hand of white male superiority, they just don’t know any better, the poor things. Fuck that shit.

      And I mean, so what if an angry marginalized person fucks up and annoys someone privileged who might have actually had their mind changed, had they only been more polite? It is not, in fact, the end of the world. I’ll rank the needs and feelings of the marginalized person here way over the privileged person’s ego any day. The latter has a million opportunities to come around to anti-oppression thinking, if they ever choose to.

  33. Came on here to add a +1 to the post and discovered as usual that others had said what I wanted to say much more eloquently than I can manage. Partial Human and moviemaedchen in particular have been hitting it out of the park.

    Ian Cromwell (Crommunist) over at FTB has also commented recently on the ‘civility’ issue. I’ll quote a part of it here because he uses an analogy I particularly like:

    The issue of “civility” is one that I find very tiresome, because it is based on extremely flawed assumptions of de facto equality between groups. To use an extreme example, if a man calls me “nigger” I am not being ‘equally uncivil’ when I call him a “racist cockbucket”. To use a less extreme example, it is not “equally uncivil” to call out someone who suggests that pregnant rape victims should “see it as a blessing in disguise”, even in extremely harsh language. To use an even milder example, it is not “incivil” to identify someone as homophobic when they say that while they don’t “have a problem with gay people”, they don’t think they should be allowed to marry each other because it will destroy society.

    There are a number of high-minded and “civil” ways to dehumanize minority groups. There are comparatively fewer ways to mount an appropriate defense that will not be seen as “incivil”. Demanding “civility” often results in a restoration of the status quo of power divides, in which minority groups must sit mutely in the face of politely-worded abuse (or worse, appease their abusers with equally politely-worded responses). The problem that the “incivility” argument has is that it assumes that any level of incivility is equally bad, and that cracking down on it punishes/restricts both groups evenly. In reality, it is somewhat like watching someone defend themselves with their fists against someone with a gun, and deciding that the answer is to simply demand that they stand on opposite sides of the room.

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/crommunist/2012/09/13/divisive-a-conversation-with-tauriq-moosa/

    Myself, I used to think that calls for civility in blog discussions were a good idea. Then about a million internet-years ago (maybe 5-6 ‘real’ years) at another blog with a well-publicised ‘civil’ comments policy, I watched as a WoC was silenced and told outright that her experiences could never have happened (only without outright swearing), only for her to get banned when she eventually lost her temper and called another commenter an asshole. It was an explicit lesson for me that civility is not the language you use but the understanding at the outset that your interlocuter is another full human being. And sometimes humans lose their tempers, particularly if they are explaining their experiences for the umpteenth time to people who *just* *aren’t* *listening*.

    1. Oh, I love that analogy. And word on treating people with the understanding that they are full human beings – yes. The notion of “civility” that gets brought out in these discussions is as you point out not this fundamental respect, but one more tool of the oppressor to deny the oppressed power, standing, means of fighting back. It is endlessly flexible, because at root it’s meaningless. I went through the change-of-mind you describe myself; it’s easy to call for “civility” when you’re still seeing through your own privilege, instead of seeing the privilege itself.

      (And thanks for the nod – back at you.)

      1. I think it’s difficult for privileged people to put themselves in another’s shoes. I can think of a couple of issues where my ability to keep my tone ‘civil’ is significantly lowered. If I, as a white, cisgender, (mostly) heterosexual, able-bodied white woman have these rage-triggers, how much more likely am I to trip the triggers of someone less privileged through carelessness? For me, in that situation, the most useful thing I can do is to realise that this person has probably gone over this a hundred times before, seen it on countless blog posts, and doesn’t know (well-intentioned but careless) me from Schrödinger’s racist/transphobe/*ist, and to say to myself not ‘this person is a mean poopyhead’ but ‘how have I fucked up? What part of this person’s experience have I ignored?’.

        1. One of the hardest things for me, as someone with tons of privilege, is learning to shut up, as much as I might want to put my two cents in. We all want to share our opinions and stake out our space in the arena to defend all comers, but, for some of us, that space is already the entire arena, and we need to learn to just sit on the sidelines and listen, instead of jumping in. We need to cede the ground we were already born “owning,” and suck it up.

          While part of it is a difficulty in placing ourselves in another’s shoes, I think part of it is the difficulty of taking ourselves out of the conversation and just listening. That’s nothing compared to the difficulties of those without privilege, but it’s still not easy for the individual to do.

        2. @Astronomer: Yes, especially your closing lines. That is it precisely.

          @Gomi: You hit on a very key point, thank you. I think you’re right, the need to claim rhetorical space is a big part of the issue. And yeah, one key thing people with more privilege can do is exactly what you say: cede the ground, sit on the sidelines for a bit, and listen. It can be very hard, yeah. In retrospect I’m glad that a major portion of my early intro to SJ – and specifically anti-racism – was through reading conversations that were already finished, because that instinct to jump in and put in my ever-so-important 2 cents was very present, but was automatically frustrated at those times. After thinking for a while I was able to see that yeah, it would not have been helpful at all to have jumped in, and all my questions got answered anyway. Google was my friend! But I hear you.

          Also, in RE listening: thanks for handling my smackdown of you earlier as well as you did.

        3. @moviemaedchen, regarding your smackdown, I was biting my tongue, LOL. My instinct is to argue whether the sky is blue or water is wet, but I’ve learned that what I see as entertaining intellectual sparring, another person very well might not. I can thank my wife for that lesson, and her patience in teaching it.

    2. It was an explicit lesson for me that civility is not the language you use but the understanding at the outset that your interlocuter is another full human being.

      So true. Years ago, I used to participate in a discussion board with a very strict “no personal attacks” policy, and where most posters self-identified as liberals. Long time regulars might get a second chance if they apologized quickly, but most “offenders” just found themselves gone without even one “we don’t do that around here” warning. And yet, whenever SSM came up, you’d get ever-so-polite slippery slope bestiality comments. And totally off topic, but whenever I think of that site, I remember the time one of those guys said, in a thread on spanking, that he spanked his 14 year old twins (girl and boy), but “only when they needed it”.

  34. Several posts have reminded me of how saddened I was after the terms were set for the Savage-Brown dinner debate (Dan Savage made negative comments about the Bible during a speech at a journalism school[?], some students taking various degrees of offense walked out, NOM took up the matter, Brian Brown said he’d debate Mr Savage anytime/place, Mr Savage told Mr Brown, “my home, after a family dinner, neutral moderator, unedited footage”).

    The point was supposed to be that each would have to “acknowledge the other’s humanity” and the Movable Middle would be won over in droves, especially if there were any ground gained in the debate.

    Tactically, I thought the idea dubious. Has anyone made much headway in debating for or against the merits of a religious text against intelligent and dedicated opposition? On the personal level, it would not be that hard for either side to proclaim the acknowledgment insincere, particularly as Mr Savage didn’t moderate any of his rhetoric about Mr Brown before the event. But mainly I thought that the message the Movable Middle would be most likely to take away was that, if the King of Queers willingly hosted Public Homophobe #3, we didn’t really take equality issues all that seriously, and that to the relatively disengaged observer it would resemble some of those weird aisle-crossing friendships in Washington DC. Also, as Mr Savage takes a firm line with the recently out that their greatest weapon when they are marginalized by family members is the threat of cutting them out of their lives, he seemed to be undercutting his own advice.

    What saddened me was the overwhelming euphoria in the reactions of the posted comments in related threads, almost entirely from straight people. Some were mostly just glad Mr Savage had resisted the temptation to arrange a hostile environment for Mr Brown. At the time, my main impression was that people were just glad to get a circus where nothing of personal value to them would be at stake. I did get a glimmer of what’s been expressed so well here in the OP and many of the comments – how pleasing it is to the Privileged (even some Allies of reasonable merit) when the Marginalized behave with “proper” civility – even excessive and insincere civility.

      1. As this was from the perspective of Mr Savage, #1 would have to be his former college roommate, Mr Santorum, leaving the #2 slot for the ever-uncharming Ms Gallagher, who is, somewhat more than Mr Brown, the public face of NOM.

    1. how pleasing it is to the Privileged (even some Allies of reasonable merit) when the Marginalized behave with “proper” civility – even excessive and insincere civility.

      Bingo. It’s comforting to the privileged – because it doesn’t challenge their comfort in their position in any significant way. And word on the circus aspect, too.

  35. I would argue that general context has a lot to do with weather or not a verbal attack is appropriate also. If I oppress somebody then I would say they are technically allowed to be as vile and livid as they want in their response countering my oppression of them, but it does NOT make it appropriate for that same oppressed person to attack others.

    If I step on your foot by mistake, I would HOPE that you would have the ware – withal to notice it was an accident and respond without biting my head off but since you don’t have to. That is your right as the person with the hurt foot, to smack me back if you feel it appropriate. That being said, if you point out I stepped on your foot, ill probably apologize, if you smack me up side the head instead then ill probably just beat you back, leaving me still an oblivious asshole and you oppressed AND bloody (loose loose if you ask me).

    You do NOT however have the right to start screaming at people with big feet because a person with big feet oppressed you, even if they believe that “people with small feet should look where they are going” because while they believe something you don’t, THEY did not oppress you, and are thus not deserving of your wrath.

    In short, if your going to scream at somebody, its your job to make sure you’re screaming at the right person.

    1. If I step on your foot by mistake, I would HOPE that you would have the ware – withal to notice it was an accident and respond without biting my head off but since you don’t have to. That is your right as the person with the hurt foot, to smack me back if you feel it appropriate. That being said, if you point out I stepped on your foot, ill probably apologize, if you smack me up side the head instead then ill probably just beat you back, leaving me still an oblivious asshole and you oppressed AND bloody (loose loose if you ask me).

      I don’t know whether you mean to, but what you’re basically saying is: “If I say something hurtful and you respond by getting upset or angry, I will then try to take away rights from you and everyone who shares a specific feature with you because you’re all the same. I’m doing this because I believe that my feelings are more important than your rights.” If that’s not what you’re going for, you should probably clarify.

      The problem with your analogy is that it fails to take into account the power differentials and the levels of harm involved. We’re not talking about situations where someone steps on the foot of someone who has an equal ability to respond, because society is going to tend to take the side of the oppressor over the oppressed person. Additionally, we’re talking about a situation where the person’s metaphorical foot is already hurting from the number of times it’s been stepped on in the past.

      It’s like, if you step on the foot of someone whose foot was broken when someone stepped on it in the past, they’re going to react worse than if you step on the foot of someone with an uninjured foot. That’s not blaming you for the actions of whoever broke their foot. It’s just a reflection of how context matters. If someone says something sexist or racist or homophobic or any other sort of -ist – even if they don’t mean to – it’s rubbing in all the pain and oppression that person has already experienced. Whatever your intent, it’s contributing to a society where that sort of prejudice is okay and that has real consequences for people who are subject to oppression.

      The truth is, most oppressed people will moderate their response based on context. We’re not idiots. However, making the oppressor the arbiter of what’s appropriate, with an implied threat of being left metaphorically “bloody” (really poor choice of words when oppressed people are sometimes left literallybloody), is problematic when the oppressor has a habit of pretending that a response to oppression is a terrible thing while minimising the severity of the oppressive act. For example, me calling someone a homophobe is not as bad as that person saying I should have less rights than straight people; me calling someone sexist is not as bad as them trying to limit the opportunities I have available as a woman. Trying to place those things on the same level is a false equivalence.

      1. It’s like, if you step on the foot of someone whose foot was broken when someone stepped on it in the past, they’re going to react worse than if you step on the foot of someone with an uninjured foot.

        This is a much better analogy than the one I posed, so lets go with your version for the continuation of this 😉

        That’s not blaming you for the actions of whoever broke their foot.

        disagree 100%

        It’s just a reflection of how context matters.

        agree 100%

        The truth is, most oppressed people will moderate their response based on context.

        This has not been my experience in any way but the frequency that this occurs isn’t part of of my point so I’m going to not address that further in an effort to not tangent the conversation

        stepping on the foot of a person with a broken foot sucks worse for them, I get that, I understand the heightened emotional response, that doesn’t make it OK.

        the idea that victims get different “rights of appropriate response” does not seem like equal treatment to me, it seems like the exact opposite. The mistake is just as bad no matter who it effects? Your score in the oppression Olympics shouldn’t dictate your access to fair treatment IMHO.

        (for the record, I’m saying this is how I manage my own tone when responding to oppression, and I encourage others to do the same. I’m not telling other people they should watch their tone, If their tone offends me I’ll just stop engaging with them and leave them alone)

        1. If I step on someone’s broken foot, I’m going to be more concerned with having hurt them than whether they call me an asshole.

        2. the idea that victims get different “rights of appropriate response” does not seem like equal treatment to me, it seems like the exact opposite. The mistake is just as bad no matter who it effects? Your score in the oppression Olympics shouldn’t dictate your access to fair treatment IMHO.

          …except that I don’t think that’s what anyone’s saying. What people are saying is that if you say something hurtful (and racist/sexist/homophobic/transphobic/ableist/etc stuff is hurtful) you shouldn’t be surprised if somebody calls you on it. Additionally, what you say will be more hurtful to someone who suffers that sort of prejudice, so you shouldn’t be surprised if that person reacts more strongly.

          I’m not sure how you’re drawing this to say that there are different standards of conduct for different people or that more privileged people are somehow treated less fairly (WTF?). I think the argument here is that prejudiced bullshit is more offensive than bad language, so if someone says something prejudiced the person who is the victim of that prejudice has a right to respond. Here’s the analogy: if I start punching someone, that person has a right to shove me away in self-defence in order to protect themself.

          And trust me – outside the very limited scope of the SJ blogosphere, oppressed people are not given greater scope to respond. For example, someone can me “unnatural” or a “pervert” or say that I’m harmful to children as a result of the simple fact of my sexuality: and that’s seen as just a political opinion rather than an assholishly inappropriate thing to say. However, if I call that person an asshole I’m seen as the rude one. That’s what this conversation is about in a nutshell. Oppressed people should have a right to call a spade a spade as opposed to always sugarcoating out words for the privileged. Can you agree with that statement?

        3. Oppressed people should have a right to call a spade a spade as opposed to always sugarcoating out words for the privileged. Can you agree with that statement?

          Yes

          But asshole (and similar insults) are subjective value judgements, not objectively descriptive adjectives.

        4. But asshole (and similar insults) are subjective value judgements, not objectively descriptive adjectives.

          So, if someone says something hatefully prejudiced at me I’m not allowed to call that person an asshole? Because that’s a ‘subjective value judgement’ on my part? After they’ve said something hurtful, shouldn’t I be entitled to make a ‘subjective value judgment’?

        5. I mean, fucking hell. Using the same examples as I did above. Let’s say that some homophobe calls gay people ‘unnatural’ or ‘perverts’ or ‘sinners’. Let’s say that they compare our relationships to bestiality or pedophilia. Let’s say that they say any of the bigoted bullshit that we hear over and over.

          I have two choices. I can mentally assign them the label ‘asshole’ and decide that I have no respect for their opinion and that it doesn’t reflect on me. Or I can decide that they are a reasonable person, with the corresponding implication that they are right and that there is something wrong with me. In those circumstances, I think I’m entitled to make a ‘subjective value judgement’ and lower my opinion of them as opposed to myself.

          Tell me: do you have a solution that does not involve the making of a ‘subjective value judgement’? If not, please stop telling people how to respond to other people saying hurtful shit. There’s a reason that I drew an analogy to self-defence here.

        6. You can respond however you like, all people are equal to decide how much punishment they are going to take and or dish out.

    2. All your comments reveal is that you have frequently stepped on other peoples’ feet many times in the past and keep doing it. If you know your feet are big and awkward and you have a tendency to step on other peoples’ broken feet then you should learn to be more careful where you put your feet. If you did it once or twice I would understand it was accidental but according to your comments you have extensive experience with stepping on feet. How many times do you need to step on other people’s feet before you learn that people don’t like it?

  36. One thing I will agree about not using words like ‘douchebag’ or even ‘idiot’, is that you can craft a brilliant 5000 word argument that demolishes very single aspect of that person’s position point, but if you start by calling them an asshole or a douchebag, they can dismiss your entire argument with ‘you’re just name-calling.’ The likelihood of this happening is even greater with a person who happens to be an asshole douchebag or idiot.

    Therefore, in terms of my own rhetoric, I will use all those insults towards people who insult marginalized groups I’m not a member of and have no business speaking for just to show my vehement disapprobation, but if I’m addressing something Anti-Semitic I will probably tone down the swear words in order not provide ammunition for the ‘how dare you call me a…’ crowd.

  37. Daniel Fincke asks: “Do marginalized people need to be insulting in order to be empowered”?

    … That’s actually a good question. And also subject to the definition of insulting. While tone-trolling is problem, I suspect its less clear-cut than we are talking about.

    I personally get more annoyed when marginalized people try to analyze me away or get so busy norm-busting that they can’t see the culture for the norms. (I’m looking at YOU, Tranarchism). I also think that the tendancy to do this may actually be MORE damaging to a movement than a moderate level of insultingness and that doing it a lot may be the sign of an ideology in decay.

    Incidentally, I really like Daniel Fincke on a lot of points, especially his philosophy which has helped me even out my own utilitarianism. I hope he realizes his mistake here.

    My own opinion: Calling people assholes is probably neccesary, but I REALLY think that using the privleged class membership like a slur is not a good idea at all. Fortunately, people don’t do that much at all, but it can be pretty frustrating when it does happen. It’s part of why I now consider myself a utilitarian who recognizes a need for improvement on the part of PoC and women, not a PoC or feminist ally.

    1. It’s part of why I now consider myself a utilitarian who recognizes a need for improvement on the part of PoC and women, not a PoC or feminist ally.

      Either this is poorly phrased or deeply fucked up. Did you really mean to say the problem is that PoC and women need to improve themselves?

      1. Is it really so wrong not to want to be a part of a group who inherently thinks your opinions on everything are ultimately irrelevant and deserve to be spat upon for not being part of the oppressed group?

        people who take pride in the idea that “you can never be to radical if your right” and gleefully advertise their uncompromising stance don’t want to have a conversation, they just want to beat up on people who believe something different then they do because greater society beat up on them.

        1. Is it really so wrong not to want to be a part of a group who inherently thinks your opinions on everything are ultimately irrelevant and deserve to be spat upon

          Is it really so wrong not to give a shit about people who seem to have no consciousness of the fact that this is the status quo for women, PoC, and other oppressed groups, and that just maybe the person who should bend in that conversation is the person for whom it’s a novel experience?

      2. It’s part of why I now consider myself a utilitarian who recognizes a need for improvement on the part of PoC and women, not a PoC or feminist ally.

        Either this is poorly phrased or deeply fucked up. Did you really mean to say the problem is that PoC and women need to improve themselves?

        Poorly phrased, I think. PoC and women suffer varying levels of marginalization and oppression, and that needs to stop. Therefore I can persuade and harrass those who perpetuate this. Such as calling out my constantly-rape-saying roommates. I’m mainly saying that I don’t take orders from you. (not implying that activists give orders very much, but I am reserving the right to make independent decisions you may not like. )

        @deadleaf: I’m not sure what you are saying, but if you are saying what I think you are saying, take a hike! Most people don’t act that way.
        (although attitudes similar to what you are saying were a factor .)

        @EG: I pretty much agree with you.

  38. Oh look, how new and fun:

    A bunch of affluent, college educated white American women convincing themselves that, because they are a tiny, tiny, micron less privileged then the most privileged people on this planet, they are exempt from basic human decency in conversation with their “oppressors,” and citing the civil rights movement they are not tangentially involved in nor alive during in their arguments.

    It must be a day that ends in “y”!

    Next, sing the International Hymn of the Proletariat before your 1pm pilates class!

    1. *snorts*

      Like I’ve said, I think “civility” gets used to shut down conversations a lot, and I disagree with the implication that a college-educated American woman can only be a “tiny micron” underprivileged, but your comment is…kind of spot on.

      1. White women appear to have it pretty good but not THAT fucking good. Do you even listen to people?

        That said, feminism has and has had a huge race problem plus (in radical circles) a tendancy to compare black women to white men and then attribute it all to gender.

    2. A bunch of affluent, college educated white American women convincing themselves that, because they are a tiny, tiny, micron less privileged then the most privileged people on this planet, they are exempt from basic human decency in conversation with their “oppressors,” and citing the civil rights movement they are not tangentially involved in nor alive during in their arguments.

      You’ll note that many people posting here are not affluent, college-educated, white or American.

      1. A bunch of affluent, college educated white American women

        You’ll note that many people posting here are not affluent, college-educated, white or American.

        …or even women.

    3. Fuck off. The oppression caused by sexism is not a “tiny, tiny” thing for any woman, regardless of how privileged she is in other ways.

    4. Actually, I take back my prior approving comment. LotusBecca is right, and you’re e douche.

      (and gosh, how lacking in human decency of me! Better get your smelling salts!)

    5. So, what you’re saying is that gender is not actually an axis of oppression, and that the only true axes of oppression are race and class. If gender is an axis of oppression, it is in fact possible to be white, affluent, and college-educated and yet be oppressed on the basis of gender.

      As to your “micron less,” that’s not how I would describe being subject to job discrimination, sexual harassment and assault, and/or second-shift work of domestic labor. But you must be right; those things must be no big deal. That’s why men are so free and easy about changing them.

      1. Litta’s comment kinda reminded me of some horrible mutant offspring of bell hooks (who I love) and Rush Limbaugh (who I, er, don’t love). I’m a bit surprised ze didn’t throw in references to how annoying rich, white feminists are driving Subarus and eating arugula.

        1. Yes. In fact, I myself am so pretentious that the chardonnay I sip is latte-style, mixed with fair trade hemp milk and organic non-dairy creamer.

      2. As to your “micron less,” that’s not how I would describe being subject to job discrimination, sexual harassment and assault, and/or second-shift work of domestic labor. But you must be right; those things must be no big deal. That’s why men are so free and easy about changing them.

        How can one even measure such things as oppression?

        I feel pretty safe in saying that a majority of the actual “affluent, college educated white American women” posting on here would be perfectly happy to admit that women of color, in third world countries, living in poverty have it a lot worse than they do. So, Litta’s comment, which was little more than a snarky joke implying they would not, doesn’t pass the smell test on many levels.

    6. A bunch of affluent, college educated white American women

      Hi! I am mac. Here are some things I am not:

      Not affluent.
      Not college educated (fully yet).
      Not white.
      Not American.
      And let me add some more “nots” to that:
      Not straight.
      Not fertile.
      Not Christian.
      Not a first-world citizen.
      Not able.
      Not neurotypical.

      Not being all these things that I am not, how about you go fuck yourself for completely erasing my identity in order to get gotcha points on a feminist site? And let me speed you on your way by calling you a disingenuous, marginalising, putrid sack of rotting second-hand thoughts and a most delicate turd-nibbler.

      1. Yes, I understand all that, but have you ever done pilates? I’m not sure if Litta can listen to people who do pilates.

        1. Hmm. . .I really don’t know. I would guess that a majority of trolls who come to this blog take the anti-yoga position, but I don’t have hard statistics on the topic.

        2. Gwyneth Paltrow does yoga, y’know.

          Oh, god, she’s one of my ragefroth buttons. I’ll clearly have to give up yoga promptly.

          I would guess that a majority of trolls who come to this blog take the anti-yoga position

          Now I’m leaning towards yoga again. Cursed indecision!

        1. Word. What an idiot.

          (Incidentally, I would like it if people would not tar atheists with that brush. Some of us are really trying to get more inclusivity, some of us have suffered.)

    7. Do people not realize that comments decrying whining over (alleged) trivia are, themselves, the pinnacle of trivial whining?

      Although, I must admit to a weak spot for the good self-undermining comment. Sometimes low-hanging fruit tastes the sweetest.

    8. affluent

      I’m financially dependent on my family and unemployed.

      college educated

      I’m not even done with two years of community college, and I still need to transfer.

      women

      I’m cis male. You got me at the white and American part, though. Two points for you!

      convincing themselves that, because they are a tiny, tiny, micron less privileged then the most privileged people on this planet, they are exempt from basic human decency in conversation with their “oppressors,” and citing the civil rights movement they are not tangentially involved in nor alive during in their arguments.

      Only a “tiny, tiny micron less privileged”? Don’t pretend that women aren’t underprivileged to a significant degree; oh wait, you’re not pretending because you also seem to think that women aren’t being oppressed as a class. How charming.

      Also, “basic human decency”? I didn’t know that calling people as you see them was oppressive and against human decency – oh my. I suppose that, instead of calling folks like Todd Akin and Pat Robertson misogynistic shitheads, I should instead be a Respectful Human Being and merely inform them of their reprehensible characters and behavior. I won’t, though, because it’s absolutely pointless. Civility in argumentation is only important when it comes to arguing with people who are on the fence regarding many issues and actually care about learning things.

      Your point about folks bringing up the civil rights movement is even more laughable. That the movement isn’t active anymore is totally irrelevant. Likewise, the fact that we aren’t involved in it means nothing. I hope you know what a red herring is.

      Next, sing the International Hymn of the Proletariat before your 1pm pilates class!

      What a shame – I’m awful at singing and pilates.

    9. Um, have the college-educated white American women on here missed 90% of the social justice writing about white women? The two groups of people I have seen describe white American women as “the most pampered, spoiled creatures on the planet” are MRAs and people blogging about social justice who are not college-educated, white American women. I am surprised people are so dismissive of this comment.

  39. It’s a bit of hilarious to read it after reading Jill’s post about Feministe commentariat being constantly inch away from calling everyone on (well, guest bloggers) about pretty much everything, in not very civil words.

    Is there really any doubt why Feministe comments section is such a lovely civil place? 😀

  40. If anything this article has made me reflect on the fact that “asshole” is probably the least offensive thing I can think of to call a person. “You sound like an asshole,” is fair warning. What you are saying makes you seem like bigot/idiot/douche.

    Huh.

  41. So, recently a woman on my local news stations FB page told me I looked Mexican and then asked if I was legal.

    But my TONE in responding to her is the problem. Not, yanno, her racism.

    *snorts*

  42. I’m with everyone who thinks that Fincke should immortalized with a Godwin-esque rule. Privileged people who insist that the oppressed should speak their hurts nicely and quiet are obnoxious fuckers (Oops!) Most of them are offended if we speak out at all. I know people were furious with Cesar Chavez and the UFW just because they let the nation know that farmworkers needed water, a place to relieve themselves, and basic human respect.

    Thinking of the talk about 9/11 and instances when actions by relatively marginalized people against privileged people, I think 9/11 shows that sometimes in that process marginalized people end up hurting other marginalized people in the process. The Cortina Wars were kicked off by police bruality against Mexicanos and Tejanos, but by the time they were over, my Tejano 4th great-grandparents on my grandmother’s side of the family (Cortina is likely a relative on my grandfather’s side of the family) were without jobs or a home because they were laborers on an Anglo-owned ranch that Cortina’s men destroyed. I understand, and empathize with the motivations for why Cortina and other Tejanos/Mexicanos would want to rebel, but I know it’s complicated.

    Anyway, struggling to keep my eyes open, sorry if this wasn’t coherent. I should probably sleep now…

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