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The problem isn’t the breastfeeding, it’s the enormous ass writing the article.

There are certainly lots of good criticisms to be made about attachment parenting and probably lots of interesting things to say about the impacts of long-term breastfeeding on a marriage, but “Eew breastfeeding is gross” is not one of them.

As Amanda points out, the problem here is the sexless marriage, not the breastfeeding. And the root of that problem seems to be that James Braly sees sex as something for men. As Amanda puts it, “He frames sexual desire as something only men have, and sees women’s bodies as machines that serve the needs of men and/or children. The possibility that women could also be frustrated and unhappy when cut off from sex therefore doesn’t occur to him.”

This is probably where I diverge a little bit from some feminist writers, but I do think that in a long-term romantic/sexual relationship, ideally both people make a reasonable effort to meet their partner’s needs — including sexual needs. That doesn’t mean that one partner is obligated to have sex they don’t want, or that a woman’s breasts are shared property; it does mean that even if you have a child, your relationship with your partner needs care. It means making time for sex in a long-term relationship. It means being open to your partner’s sexual desires, and being open with yours. And it means being frustrated in a sexless marriage (or with extended co-sleeping or breastfeeding until the kid is 5) doesn’t make you a bad person.

Unfortunately James Braly sounds like a total dick, and I feel bad for his wife, and he does kind of come across as a bad person with really disturbing views of sex and biology (I definitely would not want to be sleeping with someone who thought I was basically doing sex for him). But it would have been nice to see a decent take on the impact that attachment parenting can have on a marriage when it becomes a barrier to intimacy, or an article about how attachment parenting very much feeds into traditional ideals about women existing to serve and sacrifice for their children, or a piece on how sharing a bed with a kid until the kid is in third grade really puts the kabosh on sexytimes. That wasn’t this piece. This piece was James Braly whining about boobies. And his complaints and his presentation were terrible, but there’s a little nugget of truth buried somewhere deep in there.

Are a woman’s breasts hers? Yes, of course. Are they sometimes for feeding babies? Yes, of course. But they’re also sexual and often an integral part of a couples’ sex life. Breastfeeding for five years can be a real issue; denying that isn’t particularly helpful. And the comeback always seems to be, “But breasts aren’t for my husband! My breasts are mine! They’re for feeding a baby!” But well, yes, of course, but also no. Breasts are yours — they’re also for your own sexual pleasure, among many other purposes. And they can be for feeding your baby. But breasts-as-sexual doesn’t have to be a male-centered, male-serving thing. Unfortunately in these discussions, breasts are inevitably framed as “for” someone else — “for” a baby if you’re breastfeeding, “for” a man if they’re involved in your sex life (heteronormative phrasing intentional there — no one seems to ever suggest that a lesbian woman’s breasts are “for” her partner). And just, no. A lot of women like sex too. And if your marriage is sexless and one partner is unhappy about that, then something has to give. I imagine that it’s rare where both partners are 100% happy in a sexless marriage (I’m sure it happens, but it’s unusual); I imagine it’s also rare where one partner in a sexless marriage is totally happy and the other is miserable. Usually these things cut both ways. Which is why Braly’s piece was so obnoxious — his wife’s feelings don’t even register, other than he assumes that while he’s biologically driven to want sex, she’s biologically driven to want to breastfeed a five-year-old, and so they’re at odds.

There are real problems with schools of thought that don’t take into account whole-family health, and instead focus entirely on the myriad ways a woman can sacrifice for her children. Parents do what they need to do, and for a lot of families, some attachment parenting techniques work. That’s great. But the whole philosophy was spelled out by a right-wing misogynist who saw women’s “natural” roles as mothers and servers of children; his view, basically, was that women should sacrifice everything for their kids and center their entire worlds around those kids, because that’s what good women do. In my view, that’s not particularly good for women or for kids (have you met adults who grew up believing they were the center of the entire universe? They are not pleasant or well-adjusted people). That said, most parents use some hodge-podge of parenting techniques that seem to work best. Some of them seem pretty crappy — and of course they are, because some of anything people do is pretty crappy, being that we are all just human beings — and some of them do seem to insist that EVERYTHING THE KID NEEDS gets placed far, far ahead of anything that the parents need. I’d be interested to read a thoughtful take on how hyper-child-centric methods of childrearing have damaged the parents’ relationship with each other (and whether that even matters, or if putting kids first is so important that a marriage that can’t withstand it isn’t worth having in the first place).

But the Braly piece wasn’t that. It wasn’t a critique of mother-martyrdom, or a look at how these practices can alienate husbands or destroy a couples’ sex life. It isn’t about much more than how Braly’s own wife should also sacrifice for him — as if sex is a “sacrifice,” and something that good women do in order to serve the kings of their castles. And I’m sure when his wife sees her body described as repulsive in the New York Times and reads all about her husband fantasizing about cheating on her, their sex life will greatly improve.

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178 thoughts on The problem isn’t the breastfeeding, it’s the enormous ass writing the article.

  1. He does come across as a super creepy a-hole.

    There’s also some seriously weird conflating happening at times–he can’t seem to parse out the difference between his sexual interest in his wife’s breasts, and the biological interest that his children have in them: “Seeing my wife’s breasts through my boys’ eyes…given the choice, I knew I’d do what they were doing. Before they came along, I did.” Of course, maybe I’m wrong, but I strongly suspect that he was not, in fact, doing to the same thing they were doing before they came along. Unless he’s suggesting that his children are engaging in sexual behavior with his wife, or he’s suggesting that she was breastfeeding her husband, that is.

    And, certainly, I think that it’s important for all parties in a relationship to have honest conversations about where they are and how they’re feeling about the relationship, including conversations about their sex lives. If her breast feeding is bothering him so much (“As their mother’s husband, however, I was dry-heaving — and bile is not an aphrodisiac.” Really?), he should absolutely have had conversation with her about it.

    And I’m sure when his wife sees her body described as repulsive in the New York Times and reads all about her husband fantasizing about cheating on her, their sex life will greatly improve.

    Soon to be ex-wife (shockingly).

  2. You know as a mother who nursed til three– I still feel like being intimate with a man puts a strain on my relationship with my son. Because really, when you become bonded to a little person, you get sensitive to how much of sexual relations CAN be about a man drinking from your sexuality in a way that is intense and sometimes difficult and abrasive and the hormones and experience of giving birth and seeing such an innocent and non-sexual human being– and know what that depth of intimacy that has nothing to do with sex feels like– it can really change how a woman might feel about sex.

    It might make her more sensitive to aspects of how her partner sees her and uses her and relates to her sexually and might make the experience of sex more intimidating rather than mutually enjoyable.

    I think in relationships where this is high communication and genuine love and empathy- the transition back to having sex that is mutually enjoyable is more easy to navigate– but I dislike the idea that any loving female who cares about her partner will inherently feel the same about sex or even ok with the kind of sexual relationship that existed before th child–

    Many women will shift after birth and there really might be situations where discoveries a woman has about her emotions and sexuality after processing the experience of birth and caring for a small infant and child might mean that she can’t supply her mate in the way she didpreviously without causing harm and not listening to herself and her emotions.

    It’s possible this might mean the relationship should end, especially because for me personally if I am emotionally retreating from sex because it feels harmful and scary and not right for me, there is no amount of pressure to “come around” or “work on it” that will hasten the process.

    In fact even the idea of that pressure being applied to me makes me feel horrified. I can’t imagine having a therapist or peers or anyone encouraging me to push myself into accepting or wanting sex that my system is telling me genuinely is not good for me to have.

    The man who wrote this article sounds scary. There is no way I would feel safe or comfortable being vulnerable with him or letting him do anything sexual to me or force myself to want to engage in sex with someone like him. If I had been blind to how harmful his “energy” if you will might be for a woman to endure, I can only imagine childbirth and bonding with child would make want to retreat from a man like him even more, to protect myself from being harmed by him so that I could be a better provider for my child.

    Sex can harm women, and if your partner wants to do sexual activities when your body is just not wanting someone elses sexual energery running through it, it very well can be a choice between keeping yourself healthy for your child and pleasing a partner.

    These are things I think people should talk about before having babies (or getting married) and how to support each other when sexuality changes and grows. At some point, change and growth might necessitate the end of a relationship. And it’s important before having kids to talk about how you would make their lives happy and healthy even if the sexual dynamic shifted a lot.

    Of course to me, after birth and while caregiving for small people..I am more senstive about aspects of my partners sexuality that might be dominant, sadistic, overpowering, possesive– that I might not be sensestive to or even previously enjoyed when not in a position of being a caregiver to a tiny being which shifts my nature to not frequently NOT wanting to be involved with ANY energy like that at all.

  3. I understand the feminist critiques of attachment parenting, I really do.

    But where I live, in middle-class East Coast suburbia, attachment parenting is not at all the dominant paradigm. It’s more like something that most parents have only vaguely heard of, if at all.

    So I don’t understand the substantial amount of attention paid to attachment parenting by people writing as feminists. I’ve probably read 30 feminist pieces opposing attachment parenting for every committed attachment-parenting parent I’ve ever met.

    What am I missing? Do I live under a rock?

  4. Past my expiration date: In the Minnesota suburbs attachment parenting seems to be alive an well. It could be a demographic thing though, we have a pretty big conservative christian SAHM chunk of the population as well as a decent sized crunchy granola population which with our US culture of competitive parenting can make a perfect storm of women’s place and the naturalistic fallacy.

  5. So I guess in defense of women who have such a shift without realizing it can happen, I think in general and empathetic man who wants to understand why a woman might be more senstive or need a shift in how intimacy is explored (i.e. shifting focus to hugs and warmth over and orgasm or performance focused intimate experience) — it will feel more instinctual to rekindle the sexual life.

    But there may be an aspect of the way the man wants to interact sexually that is inherent in his make up and can’t exactly change– that the woman simply becomes more sensitive to and rightly knows she needs protection from. Some men have sexual energy that is just really intense even if they are genuinely good people, it just might be too much for a mother who is not wanting to feel, uh, violated while in nurture mode. Of course, I had to just stop interacting with men entirely because I do feel bad for men desiring sex and want them to have what they want and have a hard time standing up for the fact that I quite frequently don’t like the kinds of sex or relationship set ups that men who want sex from me want.

    And I feel exhausted thinking about the world putting any more pressure on me to fill those male needs than I already feel which is overwhelming.

    1. i had exactly the opposite problem with my ex while i was breastfeeding our daughter—he didnt want anything to do with my leaky breasts—it was very frustrating

  6. That article is so offensive and disgusting I’ve feel physically ill after having read it. I’m so upsent I’m finding it difficult to even come up with an intelligent response. Which I think is part of the point when it comes to people like Braly, shut those b*****s down by shaming them in such an ott manner that all they will do is cry and run away.

    What am I missing? Do I live under a rock?

    No, no you don’t.

    Here’s the thing that Jill and Amanda and other prominent members of the Feminist commentariat don’t seem to understand, in the rest of America people find themselves on the receiving end of nastiness and criticism like Mr. Braly’s on a near daily basis for our parenting decisions. Attachment parenting and breastfeeding are still considered far outside the mainstream once one leaves the confines of NYC and other more liberal areas. I’m not even much of an APer, although I have ebf all of my kids so far to at least a year old, and the sort of disgusting and offensive criticisms I have received for those choices from friends and strangers alike have been truly hair raising.

  7. Oh hai, CreepyMcRaperson!

    Ikr?

    The sexist notion that men have needs, that women just don’t, and that we make it into some sort of cruel game to put men and their needs off, is wrong in so many ways. It sounds like Braly is nothing more than a misogynistic, sexist, overgrown child himself, and he’s throwing a big childish tantrum because now he has to share his wife’s boobies with their new baby.

    Gross, with a side of perviness.

  8. BTW as someone who could easily retreat sexually when a man is putting on the pressure for sex to happen, there are ways to let a woman know you want her sexual attention (which I think is sweet) and there are ways to demand ‘sexual attention or I’m out and I’m mad and frustrated at you’ which is not the sort of thing that is likely to warm someone up to sex.

    You could try… saying some sweet things, telling her how much you miss/love sharing sex with her and how beautiful she is… asking her what kind of intimacy she might be yearning for and how you can show her your love— and telling her you miss recieving her attentions because of how wonderful they are.

    there are ways to create a mood and there are ways to demand the mood that make the very idea of sex become a terrible forced technical ultimatum inducing thing that anyone would want to avoid. At least take your wife on a date and try to swoon her the old fashioned way before taking her a therapists office to negotiate the sexual demands she must henceforth perform.

  9. I’m rather perplexed as to how breastfeeding in and of itself “ruined” sexytime for this man.

    I nursed my son until he was 3, and it had no impact on my sexytimes. I mean, in the first few months there is a little extra sensitivity, so gentleness was needed, and the occasional bout of thrush made my breasts a “look but don’t touch” zone, but overall there was no impact on my sex life as a result of breastfeeding (infidelity and subsequent singledom were the bigger obstacles).

    I mean, unless he wanted sex every time she happened to be nursing (which are two things that really can’t be done in a multi-tasking kind of way) I don’t see how breastfeeding was the cause of their sexless marriage. It seems way more likely that his being a self absorbed dick was the issue. Maybe someone can explain to me what I’m missing here?

  10. (Anyone else half expecting Mike to show up on this thread and start demanding we institute a quota to make sure James Braly ends up with full custody after the divorce?)

  11. I couldn’t really make it past this sentence without gagging:

    I know, most women think their breasts are theirs. I’ve been hearing this since I was a toddler being cautioned, “Don’t touch!” But most guys just want to touch. Most girls, thank God, eventually make some guys lucky.

    The jokes you think are funny, Mr. Braly…they are not. I was also icked out by his weird, sexualized competition with his male son…would he have felt the same way about a daughter? Unclear.

    (FWIW, there is no objective reason for breastfeeding–even extended breastfeeding–to kill your sex life.* I can see some women having trouble re-integrating their sexuality into their new identity, and I’ve heard of women making the breasts a no-fly zone for a few months…but it doesn’t have to be that way for an extended period of time. I’d go so far as to say that if it IS that way, it’s a symptom of one of a few things: internalized misogyny/madonna-whore complex, something hormonal being off, birth trauma, or not getting enough physical help with the baby. ) But that isn’t the point–the point is that this man is. an. ass.

    *You don’t have to co-sleep with an older child to keep breastfeeding. They do not physically need to nurse at night, for one. Also, most older kids (18mos+) nurse maybe 2x-5x/day, AFAIK.

  12. If the internet, and 90% of every marriage I’ve ever seen, is any indication, the primary purpose of having kids is to make everyone thoroughly miserable.

  13. To add to my comment in mod–I don’t want to sound like “there are no real reasons to stop breastfeeding EVAH!” If it isn’t working for your sex life, it isn’t working for your sex life, and that’s a totally valid reason to switch infant feeding methods if so desired. Female sexual satisfaction is important too, natch.

  14. It seems way more likely that his being a self absorbed dick was the issue.

    I think that you hit it on the head here.

    Maybe someone can explain to me what I’m missing here?

    Nope, you’re not missing anything.

    Like lots of people who do the gross, breasts are for mens’ sexy times bit, Braly is relying on the notion that breasts are for his sole use and enjoyment and that he is owed sex on demand regardless of the wishes or other demands put on his partner. I suspect that he also failed utterly to understand why he would need to carry his own weight in his marriage or where his kid was concerned. You know, because it’s always got to be all about James, all the time.

  15. I actually knew this guy, over 10 years ago he hired me and a friend of mine to coach him on his bringing his writing to the stage which clearly he’s done with some success. I didn’t read past a few paragraphs because he was moaning about this same kind of shit back then and he was always a bit of a tool, he had this infuriating habit of treating myself and my friend as ‘regular guys,’ he was slumming around with. And as far as his constant man based complaining, well, I can’t believe his marriage lasted this long.

  16. This article made me feel so gross and even bad about myself, as someone who’s been on the receiving end of that type of pressure to have sex with someone who was only looking out for their own needs. I will never understand why men think that shaming their partner will lead to more sex, or dangling the possibility of infidelity over their head. If my partner said to me something along the lines of what was written in this article, “Of course I just want to have sex with other women, but I’m a married man, WHAT A CONUNDRUM!” I would probably throw up and then throw that person out of my life forever.

    Y’know, perhaps talking to your wife, being close with her, listening to what she’s going through might be a start. That might make her feel more comfortable than acting like a complete lech. Making a woman feel bad about not having sex with you, is just going to make her feel bad about herself, it’s not going to turn her on.

    I’m also confused about the fact that he said seeing his son nurse made him lose his appetite and want to throw up. Was he trying to say that he found nursing to be disgusting or was it just the age to which his son as still nursing that he found bothersome?

  17. That article was revolting. Why does Braly deserve the slightest bit of relevance, again? As far as I can see he’s just abusing his public platform to write vindictive, publicly humiliating screeds about his soon-to-be-ex-wife’s body. And I feel pretty awful for his son, too.

  18. If the internet, and 90% of every marriage I’ve ever seen, is any indication, the primary purpose of having kids is to make everyone thoroughly miserable.

    Did you hear that from your parents?

  19. Past my expiration date: In the Minnesota suburbs attachment parenting seems to be alive an well. It could be a demographic thing though, we have a pretty big conservative christian SAHM chunk of the population as well as a decent sized crunchy granola population which with our US culture of competitive parenting can make a perfect storm of women’s place and the naturalistic fallacy.

    I was not aware of this but I’m guessing you are referring to the EveryDay I Need Attention crowd.

  20. 19
    Angel H. 7.17.2012 at 2:45 pm | Permalink
    If the internet, and 90% of every marriage I’ve ever seen, is any indication, the primary purpose of having kids is to make everyone thoroughly miserable.

    Did you hear that from your parents?

    Heh. Well, I don’t know how miserable I made my parents but I know that they didn’t move back to their native country to make sure we got an education in the US and they were miserable a lot of the time because of that.

    I can count on one hand my friends mine whose parents are still (happily) married. Either they’re divorced or they hate each other. People in my age bracket with kids are exhausted or split up. Everyone on the internet is angry about parenting, all the time.

  21. I mean, unless he wanted sex every time she happened to be nursing (which are two things that really can’t be done in a multi-tasking kind of way) I don’t see how breastfeeding was the cause of their sexless marriage. It seems way more likely that his being a self absorbed dick was the issue. Maybe someone can explain to me what I’m missing here?

    Thank you! I’m currently nursing my 5 month-old daughter, and there haven’t been any issues with breastfeeding getting in the way of sex. Sure, at the beginning, I was so exhausted and still in pain (you know, from giving birth, and not sleeping, like, ever) that sex was pretty much out of the question, but now? The only real impediment to sex that’s different than before my daughter was born is that yes, we are co-sleeping (in a next-to-the-bed co-sleeper, not in the bed with us), and she has an uncanny ability to wake up and start crying right in the middle of it. But the co-sleeping is, at this point, for my own sanity because she still wakes often at night to nurse, and I’d rather just reach over and pick her up than trudge into another room. But I digress (sorry, I’m a little tired of hearing that breastfeeding and co-sleeping are akin to “helicopter parenting.” Sometimes a woman breastfeeds simply to give her child what she feels is a good nutritional start to life; sometimes, she co-sleeps because otherwise she wouldn’t be able to sleep, period).

    In any case, if my husband was so self-involved and immature that he couldn’t comprehend that my breasts are, in fact, useful both sexually and for my daughter’s nutritional needs, I can’t imagine I’d want to have sex with him anyway. Which, come to think of it, might have had something to do with why the author’s wife, apparently, wasn’t that interested in sex with him.

  22. while watching my wife sit under a tree with my older son, a five-and-a-half-year-old young man with a full set of teeth and chores, stretched out to roughly the size of a foal, suckling. By the time they strolled back to me and my already-nursed toddler son on the picnic blanket, I had lost my appetite — and not just for the smoked salmon. There are some things in life most men cannot share with first-graders, and two of them used to be called breasts.

    A few things:

    1) He calls a 5 year old a “young man.”

    2) He describes this 5 year old breastfeeding as a baby horse suckling.

    3) He thinks this is so disgusting, he loses his appetite.

    4) He thinks he “shares” the boobs with first graders.

    Folks, that’s misogyny 101.

  23. I don’t see how breastfeeding was the cause of their sexless marriage. It seems way more likely that his being a self absorbed dick was the issue.

    Ding ding ding!

    Let’s just stop and think, here. Since women are perfectly capable of having sex even during the breastfeeding period if they want to, what does it say, Mr. Braly, about your wife’s level of desire for you that she seems to prefer a sexless marriage? I wonder why she doesn’t want to fuck you. No, wait, I don’t wonder at all. It’s because you’re a chauvinist asshole.

    in the rest of America people find themselves on the receiving end of nastiness and criticism like Mr. Braly’s on a near daily basis for our parenting decisions. Attachment parenting and breastfeeding are still considered far outside the mainstream once one leaves the confines of NYC and other more liberal areas.

    Seconded. And speaking as somebody who has known quite a number of mothers with babies and small children in more than one east coast liberal city, attachment parenting is far from dominant here, too.

  24. What Millie said! And I breastfed our daughter for almost 4 years. Not a problem in any way except for all the other people outside our immediate family who felt they should share their feelings about our parenting. Extended nursing, and cosleeping even, do not have to get in the way of a happy sex life, but both parents need to behave like adults and not entitled jackasses.

  25. A couple of things:

    1) It’s not breastfeeding necessarily that can get in the way of having sex, it’s giving birth and having small children altogether. It’s exhausting, there are enormous physical and emotional demands on your person, and sometimes the last thing a person wants is another set of hands and mouths on her. This is standard information in basically every baby and parenting book ever written ever, so why it’s attributed to breastfeeding is beyond me. The exhaustion also plays a role in the emotional distancing of partners which can also lead to a lack of sex, also well-trod ground in all baby manuals ever.

    2) Nobody ever talks about this, but I will, so. Maybe someone can chime in and let me know whether I’m totally alone here. Having a baby profoundly changed the way I saw and experience my body. Not just the first time, but also the second more recent time. The first time around, it took me 2-3 years after the baby was born before I felt normal and “one” with my physical self again. I’m about a year out from having my last child and I’m only now able to look in a mirror and have any familiarity with my body from the neck down. It may be because I’m an assault survivor and have a profoundly bizarre, mostly negative relationship with my physical self, but the physical experience of pregnancy, childbirth, and post-partum recovery has neither been good for my mental health or my sex life, which is basically nil. Am I ringing any bells with anyone else here?

    3) It’s pretty common for men to have jealous feelings about the bond between mother and child. Sometimes the jealousy is aimed at the baby having access to the mother all the time, and some if it is resentment that the mother has emotional reserves for the baby that he doesn’t have access to anymore. It’s pretty common for women to ignore or roll their eyes at this jealousy, which can take root in marital arguments and even sometimes as domestic violence (I can’t remember what the stats are for this, but pregnant women and mothers of young children are pretty vulnerable to assault by the father). This, too, is documented in all kinds of parenting materials. I can’t assert whether this is cultural or what, but it’s there.

  26. Okay, I’m glad to hear other women were able to breastfeed and carry on sex lives. I was starting to think maybe I was the only one, and that maybe something was wrong with me! You’d think, from what Braly wrote, that as soon as lactating begins the vagina actually disappears from the body.

  27. It’s not breastfeeding necessarily that can get in the way of having sex, it’s giving birth and having small children altogether. It’s exhausting, there are enormous physical and emotional demands on your person, and sometimes the last thing a person wants is another set of hands and mouths on her.

    I agree with you on this. However, being an adult requires one to realize that becoming a parent will often translate into your life being altered significantly and that your personal wants may very well have to take a back seat to the wellbeing of the family unit as a whole. That, and the reality that babies are 100% dependant on their parent(s) for everything the first few years of their lives means that you don’t get to be a selfish, overentitled cretin and get all butthurt about not getting nooky whenever and as often as you demand it without caring about what your partner may think about it.

    It’s pretty common for men to have jealous feelings about the bond between mother and child. Sometimes the jealousy is aimed at the baby having access to the mother all the time, and some if it is resentment that the mother has emotional reserves for the baby that he doesn’t have access to anymore.

    See my above comment about putting on your adult pants and getting over yourself. While I can understand and have myself felt frustration at the drain our kids have had on myself and my husband emotionally and physically, as the adults in the family it’s up to both partners to get a handle on it and not take it out on one another. Or, worse yet, to take it out on your kid(s).

    Because in the big picture, the baby years are a very small part of one’s life. That baby will soon grow up and no longer want to nurse, or need constant care, and will become self sufficient. What sort of example are you setting for your kid if you are constantly living in a state of frustration over how they inconvenience you and ruin your sexual mojo? Not a good one, James.

  28. Lauren, i didn’t see your post when I had typed my comment @ 26– It was in response to may, millie, and others. As soon as I posted I saw yours, so I wanted to clarify my quip was referencing Braly’s weird preoccupation with nursing = nosexever. It looks super jerky posted under yours!

    It may be because I’m an assault survivor and have a profoundly bizarre, mostly negative relationship with my physical self, but the physical experience of pregnancy, childbirth, and post-partum recovery has neither been good for my mental health or my sex life, which is basically nil.

    sometimes the last thing a person wants is another set of hands and mouths on her

    I’m sorry your experiences were upsetting… I had body issues with my pregnancy since I struggled with anorexia prior to having my son.
    As far as having the extra set of hands on a new mother, I actually had more issues with how often my son wanted to nurse (especially after the first year) than I did with having a partner want me sexually. I felt like having sex was a way to reclaim my body, since the physical demands of a small child (breastfeeding, constantly wanting to be held) made me feel like I had no say over my body anymore. At least sex was something I wanted and got to do for me when I wanted it. I can understand how it can go the other way, though, for other women.

  29. @ Lauren–yeah, I felt strange within and disassociated from my body postpartum, too. And I’m not an assault survivor, so I can only imagine how much it could be magnified. I still feel a bit strange, but the effect on sex passed after a few weeks.

    RE: jealousy. Yeah, it’s common. Doesn’t mean it’s an appropriate adult reaction. I can see feeling that way–I can’t see voicing it or using it to bludgeon your parter (in some cases literally).

  30. Just wanted to make sure that Lauren understood I was using her comment as a jumping off point to further address the Braley article. I did not in any way intend to imply that she needed to get over herself or anything of the sort.

    Sorry if it came off that way, in my anger I didn’t think through the tone of my comment.

    1. Am I the only one to think that breastfeeding a five year old kid is extremely weird?

      You most surely are not — lots of people, all over the country, think it’s weird. It’s not exactly my jam, but I think it’s weirder to write an aggressive shitty article about it in the New York Times.

  31. If by “weird,” you mean “unusual,” sure. It is.

    What I want to know is, am I only one who wonders if she’s going with the prolonged breastfeeding so as to be able to more easily avoid sex with her horrible excuse for a husband?

  32. Am I the only one to think that breastfeeding a five year old kid is extremely weird?

    Didn’t we already have a billion-comment thread about that?

  33. @37 EG-
    I was wondering the same thing, especially in light of their impending divorce, per another poster.

  34. What I want to know is, am I only one who wonders if she’s going with the prolonged breastfeeding so as to be able to more easily avoid sex with her horrible excuse for a husband?

    This. If I had to choose between having a kindergartener hanging off my tit or this asshole, I’d pick the kid.

  35. Can’t really be bothered reading Bayly’s article so I will just second the comments that have confirmed that lack of interest in sex is more likely caused by lack of rest/sleep (don’t need to cosleep to have lack of sleep), lack of time alone with partner and/or partner acting douchy about stuff. I nursed to 14 months with first and almost 3 years with second. The nursing itself doesn’t necessarily put one off sex, it’s the other factors I’ve mentioned.

  36. I refused to breast feed after being forced to try by over zealous breast feeding pusher nurses. I didn’t like it and KNEW I wouldn’t before they even walked in the door. Mine are sensitive, I don’t even like them touched sexually. Doesn’t feel good. At all.

    That refusal got me sent to a 4 fucking hour breast feeding class (because I was on WIC).

    There are very few (if any) conversations about how poor women on welfare are fucking badgered into breast feeding so as not to spend tax payer money on formula. Had I caved and been forced to breast feed, the idea of another person so much as looking at my breasts would have pissed me off. So it doesn’t shock me to hear that a woman breast feeding might not be too happy to have some dude pawing at them.

  37. pheenobarbidal

    So sorry you had that awful experience. I knew there were social pressures to breastfeed and I’ve hear stories –like my brother in law told his wife that she “had to” breastfeed her twins, despite the fact that it meant a baby on one or another breast constantly for the first few weeks. But, I had no idea low income women were pressured into it to save $. Super gross. Your body is not a soda machine dammit!

  38. Braly isn’t exactly a reliable narrator, either. I wonder if he’s telling the whole story about his wife breastfeeding a 5-year-old. He makes it sound like she does it regularly, but he only describes one incident. He wants to portray himself as the regular guy who’s being put upon by the crazy attachment parenting mom who’s–get this, breastfeeding a first grader.

    The 5-year-old has a younger brother who’s still a toddler, who’s still being breast-fed.

    I wonder if the 5-year-old was really feeding, or whether he just asked for a taste because he wanted a taste of what the 2-year-old was having and his mom humored him.

  39. I knew there were social pressures to breastfeed and I’ve hear stories –like my brother in law told his wife that she “had to” breastfeed her twins, despite the fact that it meant a baby on one or another breast constantly for the first few weeks.

    I agree that people should chose for themselves whether or not to breastfeed. It’s a very personal one that must take into consideration one’s personal circumstances. That being said, I’m still, after 7 years of being a mother, waiting to encounter social pressure of any kind to breastfeed. Because what I have encountered repeatedly was lots of pressure to not breastfeed, because it’s gross and stupid and perverted and because those boobs are for my husband, and I’m not a cow, right?

    Breastfeeding twins is definitely doable, however. I did with my twins for 13 months. I don’t expect a mommy cookie for it or whatever. 13 months out of my life is just not that big of a deal in my bigger picture. Everyone else’s mileage may vary and all that. But from the very beginning in the hospital I was bullied by the nurses to not breastfeed because it was so impossibly pointless to even try. It then continued on with my FIL who tried to recruit every other member of the family to form an intervention to get me to stop and then to disapproving “friends” telling me how gross they thought it was.

    As far as I’m concerned this all just comes back to the bigger point that women have every single one of their personal choices policed to a ridiculous extent here in the U.S. in a way that men never do. And the u r doing it rong will come from both sides of the fence on every possible issue, the what hardly even matters.

  40. What I want to know is, am I only one who wonders if she’s going with the prolonged breastfeeding so as to be able to more easily avoid sex with her horrible excuse for a husband?

    I suppose it’s not in our purview to psychoanalyze why she might breast-feed for what you or I may consider an prolonged period, but surely his being a fucking idiot is driving her away from him. But she did marry him, so one imagines at one point she was attracted to him, and I would say it’s his contempt for her that’s pushing her away rather than her contempt for him, no matter how contemptuous we may feel toward him.

  41. cherrybomb and Lolagirl, no offense taken.

    Regarding jealousy, it’s common enough that I think that dynamic of new parenthood is worthwhile to discuss especially from a feminist perspective, where all the talk about what a woman’s body is “for,” whether “for” babies or men or herself, diminishes the woman’s desires and the ability to be an active agent in her own life. But this:

    And I’m sure when his wife sees her body described as repulsive in the New York Times and reads all about her husband fantasizing about cheating on her…

    This is disgusting. Clearly Bialy was trying to be hyperbolic and funny about the issue, but the net effect is abusive to his soon-to-be ex and adds to the exhausting pile-on on moms. He tries for funny introspection, but ultimately repeats the anxiety-inducing message that if you’re not physically available for your man on demand, and meeting his sexual needs always and without question, he’ll not only fantasize about the babysitter but will probably fuck her under your nose while you’re attending to the dirty work of running a household. His role and responsibility to the relationship is erased. He blames his wife. The whys and hows of breastfeeding are ultimately besides the point, because his real message is that women ought to be sexually available regardless of the health of the relationship or pay the consequence. Jealousy, then, is an expression of entitlement to his partner’s body, and fuck that.

  42. I couldn’t get past the line “Your breasts, our nookie” without feeling disgusted.

  43. That being said, I’m still, after 7 years of being a mother, waiting to encounter social pressure of any kind to breastfeed.

    Go sit in on a mandatory for welfare mothers meeting.

    There were women breastfeeding IN the meeting, but because they were on WIC it’s assumed they’re stupid poor people who don’t know about the positives of breastfeeding and oh hey, were you aware formula is expensive and takes from your WIC allowance and food stamps (that should be used for other things since you’re the free cow who shouldn’t waste government money)

  44. stay classy, WIC, stay classy. And at the same time formula companies overwhelmingly target women of color, and just. try. finding a breastfeeding photo with someone other than a thin white woman. Gotta love the no-wins of patriarchy.

  45. Go sit in on a mandatory for welfare mothers meeting.

    That is reprehensible.

    Like I said, breastfeeding is a choice that should be made by the person with the breasts, nobody else. I have been fortunate enough to have my husband’s enthusiastic support throughout the time that I’ve breastfed. I don’t kid myself that it wouldn’t have been all that much harder if not for that (and all of the pressure not to just made me more resolute to do what I wanted, but I’m stubborn that way.)

    I’m feeling quite confident in surmising that the pencil pushers who required you to attend that meeting couldn’t begin to care about you, your child or your personal set of circumstances.

  46. And, of course, not only should women be sexually available, but, by gods, they should do so in approved ways.

    The complaint in the article, at least as far as I can see, isn’t that his wife wasn’t interested in sex with him–it’s that he wasn’t interested in her because she had the audacity to breast feed their son.

    And this is just one in a line of swings at his (ex?) wife. He’s the author and performer of “Life in a Marital Institution” which, apparently, opens with a variation of the “take my wife, please!” joke (in which he tells his dying sister he loves, and she asks “enough to trade places with me?” and he replies “Would you really want to be married to my wife” and she says she’d rather die, first).

    He’s an asshole, and self centered to boot. Of the NE blackout, he wrote: “Which would be great news if I wasn’t staring out the window considering that what I care most about was almost taken from me, starting with what I like to call my career. Which, for an awful, terrifying moment, mattered more to me than my own flesh and blood.”

    @Lindsay: I definitely question his reliability, but, from what he’s written about in other places, her plan is to breast feed to about 7 years. I have no idea if that’s true, but that’s what he says. Honestly, if that’s what she wants to do, I feel like it’s none of my business, and he’s an asshole for making a big deal about it the way he has. He’s got a damn big platform to sling mud at a woman he was with for over 20 years, and it’s easy for him to make her look like “Wow, my wife, she’s ker-azy! Am I right?”

    Whether she breast fed to 8 months or 8 years, he’s an asshole. He should have had a discussion with her about this if it bothered him, not written a nasty article about how repulsed he is by her.

  47. I’ve been on three sides of the sexless marriage issue and two of them suck – being the one who wanted sex and with a partner who didn’t, and being the one who didn’t want sex with a partner who did. There is a medical reason for the shift I experienced, but it still was unpleasant. Today we both are not interested in sex and are happy with that.

  48. My tiny fruitless hope is that she somehow profits from this shit he has written about her. It’s perhaps childish, but that is my hope.

  49. and just. try. finding a breastfeeding photo with someone other than a thin white woman.

    Let me chime in to say that, having reviewed WIC’s materials in my planning area, I’m hard-pressed to find women who aren’t of colour in the educational materials — they’re definitely keen on representing women of colour in order to better persuade them. It’s possible that WIC in your area is less progressive than mine…?

  50. The author of the article is a sad person – and no amount of bravado can quite cover it up. His marriage troubles most likely started waaaaaay before his wife declared her intention to breastfeed to a certain age.

    I’m also sure that he will write a self-important, creepy screed about whatever woman he encounters next. And the one after that. And the one after that.

    Also, rox,

    …but I dislike the idea that any loving female who cares about her partner will inherently feel the same about sex or even ok with the kind of sexual relationship that existed before th child

    Really? Let’s see, I had a child a year ago to this day… His daddy and I went back to sexytime when the kidlet was about six weeks old… I read a lot of writing on the subject of what it’s like between two partners in the context of a heterosexual relationship when a kid enters the picture before I gave birth, and I thought a lot about my own relationship to post-baby sex, but I don’t think I feel any differently about it. And I’m certainly OK with going back to the kind of sex we had before the kidlet was born – in fact, I’d really missed it! It was ultimately a huge relief to reconnect with my old self and realize that she’s still around, in spite of the physical stress and lack of sleep.

    I don’t think this has anything to do with how “loving” you are, or whether or not you “care” about your partner – I think it’s an issue of personal preference, where you’re at emotionally and physically, what your needs look like, what your partner’s needs look like, whether you two are on the same page, how you two relate to the child, etc.

    I don’t think that anyone would argue that having a child results in a tremendous shift on different levels. But neither do I think that you must feel very differently about sex after a child enters your life, you know?

  51. Ah, well I can clarify that I did not say anyone MUST feel any shift after child birth. But simply was stating that I did. And that others MAY. And that their feelings might not have to do with not being loving or caring about their partner or wanting to be Good Giving and Gaim, but about a lot of different things shifting at once and hormonal difference and also… hightened awareness of just how abusive and dickish your partner might be. And not really into it any more.

    That’s just me. I know it’s easy to make up words that other people are saying (trust me, I see things that aren’t there all the time!) but really I stated pretty clearly that my point was that many (of unknown quantity or percentage) women do have a lot of shifts and might be more sensitive/feel different after birth and while caregiving and having someone laying out ultimatums about sexual performance while you’re sleep deprived and reliving various traumas and needing emotional support that they sure as heck aren’t into providing is not fun.

    Sometimes you get pregnant by a man who turns out to be really crappy at caring about what pregnancy and birth and parenting are like for you and then have the audacity to throw out their complaints about not being sexually satisfied when they are doing NOTHING to contribute to their partners well being or even give a shit about finding out what those things might be.

    So in long, of course no one must feel differently after having a child. Which has nothing to do with what I said, but despite that I will validate for you that of course no one must feel anything at all. : )

  52. Rox, sorry that I misunderstood you!

    Also, I think Lauren’s point is well worth re-visiting (I somehow skipped the original comment). Having kids is hard. Stuff happens between two people when they have a child. The relationship either makes it – or it doesn’t. Almost everything else is usually a red herring.

  53. Hmmm, now how did I manage to cut off the bottom half of my comment? Wonders never cease.

    Anyway.

    Almost everything else is usually a red herring. Because you discover things about yourself you didn’t know previously. And you see your partner in a new light. It’s not only differences that are exposed between people at this time, it’s also some deep, fundamental stuff about who you really are. That picture is not always pretty – and sometimes, it can be downright frightening. In that light, it’s not necessarily a bad thing that some marriages end after the birth of a child. I sure as hell don’t think that divorcing a James Braly type of the “Your body! Our nookie!” mindset is ultimately a tragedy, for example.

  54. Let me chime in to say that, having reviewed WIC’s materials in my planning area, I’m hard-pressed to find women who aren’t of colour in the educational materials — they’re definitely keen on representing women of colour in order to better persuade them. It’s possible that WIC in your area is less progressive than mine…?

    Wow, I guess so. I remember looking at innumerable “breast is best” photos in the ob office and recovery ward…and even the disembodied boobies were Caucasian.

  55. Look at this guy’s overall work and style. This latest piece is just one more example of how he conducts his life and how he uses it to create monologues: (1) repress yourself, (2) agree to things in relationships that you don’t necessarily like or agree with, (3) try to be grateful for being loved and having a decent wife and kids, and then (4) complain about it with smart-ass jokes and one-liners.

    http://blogcritics.org/culture/article/theater-review-nyc-life-in-a/

    http://www.downtownexpress.com/de_184/takemywife.html

    http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/jbraly/2011/09/21-questions-with-james-braly/

    The problem with his article is that, if you are a fan of his, his work does not translate to a NY Times blog post.

  56. The problem with his article is that, if you are a fan of his, his work does not translate to a NY Times blog post.

    Who on earth is even a fan of this creep? Aside from Braly himself, that is.

    I think the real problem is that the NYT ever gave Braly a platform for his dreck by publishing this piece. I agree with other commenters here that his column (as well as much of his comic schtick) is borderline abusive of his ex-wife and their kids. He’s now been given an international platform to trash talk her and call her out for issues that should never be broadcast in such a public manner.

    It’s deeply disturbing.

  57. anybody else here remember the infamous andrew dice clay?—women—WOMEN!!—-sat there and laughed at this douchebag as if he were actually funny—-when he was scheduled to appear on saturday night live, only nora dunn and sinead o’connor had the courage to refuse to appear with him—-and lordy, lordy i remember the tantrum he threw—-but it sank his popularity for good—some years ago he tried to stage a comeback and it fizzled—apparently some ppl’s memories are not so short—-

  58. Who on earth is even a fan of this creep? Aside from Braly himself, that is.

    I think the real problem is that the NYT ever gave Braly a platform for his dreck by publishing this piece. I agree with other commenters here that his column (as well as much of his comic schtick) is borderline abusive of his ex-wife and their kids. He’s now been given an international platform to trash talk her and call her out for issues that should never be broadcast in such a public manner.

    It’s deeply disturbing.

    Well, a couple of years ago my friend Neil produced an Edinburgh show on which Braly appeared, which was basically storytelling as opposed to the usual stand up comedy. I assume his ‘fans’ are fans of the ‘storytelling’ genre, of which deeply personal revelation is de rigueur. I do have a number of female friends who perform in this genre that are far more invasive of the privacy about their partners and if your spouse/partner does this kind of thing you do have to expect it, so I’m not going to judge him on that.

    However, I should again point out that I met Braly long before he had this kid, and even at that point he seemed to have an overall shitty attitude towards his marriage, one which could be roughly summed up as a complaint that his wife was somehow getting in the way of his getting laid.

  59. Nursing in noway cuts down on sexual intimacy with one’s partner. I don’t understand why people think this? Women don’t stop having sex because they are nursing. Partners of nursing women do not stop touching their partners breasts just b/c their partners is nursing. Having been both a feminist for almost all of my life and a practitioner of attachment parenting for the past 13 years (I have 4 children), I can say with confidence that attachment parenting is not about martyrdom or self-sacrifice. It is about a whole family approach – -it is about both parents (or how many care givers are in a relationship) working together to respond to children’s needs and see their family as the focus of their life. It is not about putting sexual intimacy or one’s life on hold. It is not about reverting to traditional values, whatever those may be. Do conservatives practice attachment parenting? Yes. And they likely have their own spin on what they do as parents. But just like the concept of what is “feminism”, the concept of what is “attachment parenting” changes and adapts based on the practicing parent. I know attachment parenting families that are headed by one parent, headed by same-sex couples, headed by grandparents, headed by a mother as a breadwinner (me), headed by a mother who choses not to breastfeed, etc., etc.

    The statement in this blog post, “and some of them do seem to insist that EVERYTHING THE KID NEEDS gets placed far, far ahead of anything that the parents need.” is a misunderstanding of what attachment parenting is. I understand why that misunderstanding exists, but it is not accurate. Attachment Parenting is not about parenting without boundaries or discipline and it is not about never saying no. It is instead about parenting with empathy, that is really it. Seeing a child as a person with needs and desires separate from what the adult wants for them — does that mean we always say yes? Definitely not. Does that mean the child is the center of the household? Definitely not. Can you find examples of households who do this — definitely (and they likely are not all attachment parenting focused households, I have seen many many non-AP families afraid to draw boundaries or use discipline). (Sidenote: Discipline does not equal spanking, I am using discipline as guidance and enforcing rules). Just like Rush Limbaugh supporters can find examples of feminists who hate men. There are always going to be outliers, but outliers do not define the whole. Anyway, maybe I should do a blog post or write an article about what mainstream attachment parenting by a progressive is like.

  60. There’s something wrong if breasts have been sexually fetishized to the point that they’re resented for their primary biological purpose. Mis-ordered.

  61. There’s something wrong if breasts have been sexually fetishized to the point that they’re resented for their primary biological purpose.

    This.

  62. While I’m on the warpath can I also say that eye-roll worthy comments like this:

    I really love threads like this, because while I didn’t think I could be more sure about not wanting kids, it turns out I can.

    Only come off as goody for me, too bad you loser breeders haven’t gotten clued in like I have. If only you would smarten up, you wouldn’t be on the receiving end of criticism and policing like Braly’s.

    I know that Amanda wrote a take down of this article on Slate, but I think it’s obvious that breastfeeding could easily be swapped out for some other issue that could still be used by Braly to shame and harass his ex in the New York Times.

  63. There’s something wrong if breasts have been sexually fetishized to the point that they’re resented for their primary biological purpose

    I thought one of the primary tenets of feminism was that biology does not equal destiny, and that “primary biological purposes” are really an attempt to inscribe objective “purpose” onto womens’ bodies.

    Does the vagina have a “primary biological purpose”? Is penetration with a penis the “primary biological purpose” of the vulva? Who gets to decide what a “primary biological purpose” is? Does the discourse of “primary biological purpose” privilege reproduction as the primary biological purpose of the human body? Why do we give a shit about “primary biological purposes” anyway?

  64. Join my voice to others raised in perplexity at the notion that breastfeeding and/or co-sleeping inherently or necessarily cuts down on sexyfuntimes with partners. Please. Seriously. Has there been research done on this topic? With comparisons to new mothers who don’t breastfeed past the first few weeks (which group, btw, includes the majority of American women)? I can see that parenthood can change the dynamic in a relationship in all kinds of complicated ways, and the stereotype that once women become mothers they drop all interest in sexyfuntimes and are too exhausted to care has some truth in it. We have a lot less sex than we used to. But it has zero to do with breastfeeding. (I mean seriously, so few women bf past 1 year, and if you are nursing past 1 year, you know that a 2+ year old is not nursing constantly – maybe once or twice a day at the absolute most and usually for a very short period of time). Cosleeping (which is a completely different thing from bf) might interfere more with sex – but do you know that not all sex needs to happen in a bed? At night? That people can actually have sex in different places and times? And they do, when they want to? And some people even have sex when their kids are asleep, even if they are bed sharing (as humans did for thousands of years before private bedrooms were invented)? My sexual identity and my parenting identity are not either/or. I know tons of bf mothers and none of them seem to be suffering more than any other mothers I know from sad/declining sex lives. I think mothers should talk more about our sex lives, but this whole “breastfeeding is terrible because it takes away a woman’s sexual autonomy!” is tired, reductive, and a little silly.

  65. Only come off as goody for me, too bad you loser breeders haven’t gotten clued in like I have. If only you would smarten up, you wouldn’t be on the receiving end of criticism and policing like Braly’s.

    You have to understand how much pressure those of us who are childless regularly get from family, friends, everyone really…anything which provides actual affirmation of that choice is a bit of a port in a storm. Maybe she did mean it how you say, but as a fellow childless, that’s not how I read it.

  66. You have to understand how much pressure those of us who are childless regularly get from family, friends, everyone really…anything which provides actual affirmation of that choice is a bit of a port in a storm.

    So that means pointing and laughing at a woman and mother getting humiliated and abused by her ex-husband in the New York Times?

    Maybe she did mean it how you say, but as a fellow childless, that’s not how I read it.

    I’m actually inclined to give Amanda some slack on this because she is a well-known Feminist commentator. On the other hand, she is also known for having tunnel vision where mothering/parenting issues are involved.

    Like I also said in my comment, I think the breastfeediing is just a vehicle for Braly to continue being an abusive, vindictive ass to his ex. He could have easily substituted any other reason for his withered sexual desire for his wife, her weight, her complexion, her fashion style, whatever. It’s still a shitty and hateful way to talk about his ex, and the whole article is mired in sexism and misgyny as well.

  67. Amanda states: “I really love threads like this, because while I didn’t think I could be more sure about not wanting kids, it turns out I can” Pretty sure the comment was replying to some of the comments (she refers to the thread, not the Braly article) stating that having children changed their sexuality in what for some of us would be frightening ways. It did not suggest “glad I’m not a stupid breeder because then my bad choice in partner would be even worse because he would have more excuses to shame me” There was no laughing or pointing, just relief.

    As another child-free person, I can understand her reaction, but I am confused by the willful misinterpretation of it. She says nothing about being smarter nor does she use words like “breeder,” and there is certainly no reinforcement for Braly’s behavior.

    As Fat Steve points out it is quite lonely being child-free in our repro-normative culture. Reinforcement is slim.

  68. Oh, I get it…she only meant to snark at the expense of women who have had their sexuality “changed […]in frightening ways.” So it’s cool, then.

    Look, I don’t go around to my childfree friends and gloat about how empty their existence is, lolwut your pain at this moment is totes reinforcing my decision to have kids! Awesome!

  69. As another child-free person, I can understand her reaction, but I am confused by the willful misinterpretation of it. She says nothing about being smarter nor does she use words like “breeder,” and there is certainly no reinforcement for Braly’s behavior.

    I may be overstating, I already acknowledged that. I took the referring to the “thread” to being a discussion of Braly’s article. If the intention was to refer specifically to how childbirth, breastfeeding and parenting can have a deliterious effect on a partnered relationship, then I think she did a lousy job of expressing that in a clear or obvious manner. Even so, the problem with that is Braly’s article reveals that he was actually complaining about his boner no longer coming to attention for his wife. Who cares about the excuses he comes up with for why that happened, he’s a gross and despicable excuse for a human being. Period.

    I also said nothing about Amanda’s comment reinforcing Braly’s behavior. Dunno where you got that from. Maybe if the comment hadn’t come off as being so glib, I wouldn’t have been so annoyed by it.

  70. I do think that people who do not want and do not have children will sometimes underestimate the amount of pressure that those of us who want/have children feel. We still care about our sexuality; we feel anxiety about the massive physical, emotional, sexual, and financial changes we are going or will go through; having somebody come along and say “hah! That sure sucks! I’m glad I don’t have to worry about it!” is more than a little obnoxious. It’s not like I go onto threads about people without kids and say “Man, sometimes I worry about how my decision to have kids will change my life, but seeing you guys talk about your pathetic problems always convinces me that I’m making the right decision!”

  71. I do think that people who do not want and do not have children will sometimes…

    To assume that do not want = do not have is exactly the insensitivity that I’m talking about.

  72. That was not an assumption; it was a qualification. I was speaking specifically about the group of people who neither have nor want children, i.e. those happily without children. I was not speaking about those who have but don’t want, or want but don’t have.

  73. To assume that do not want = do not have is exactly the insensitivity that I’m talking about.

    I read EG’s comment as directed at people who do not want AND do not have kids, not that all people who don’t have kids don’t want kids. And people who don’t have kids who DO want them generally don’t make comments to the effect of “wow, hearing about your parenting experience makes me so glad I don’t have kids!!!”

  74. I read EG’s comment as directed at people who do not want AND do not have kids, not that all people who don’t have kids don’t want kids. And people who don’t have kids who DO want them generally don’t make comments to the effect of “wow, hearing about your parenting experience makes me so glad I don’t have kids!!!”

    Well, I read them as being directed at me, due to the first sentence seemingly being a parody of what I said. But I’m willing to give EG the benefit of the doubt as she has always been very fair even when disagreeing with me.

  75. And people who don’t have kids who DO want them generally don’t make comments to the effect of “wow, hearing about your parenting experience makes me so glad I don’t have kids!!!”

    Uh, yeah, whilst undergoing tons of infertility treatments I never got laughs at the expense of child having types for their child-having related troubles. Ditto with before I was married laffing at marrieds.

    Just admit it was an unnecessary potshot already, because that is exactly what it was. Why one feels the need to take such potshots is beyond me, but then again I also can’t understand why someone like Braly is so insistent with conflating comedy and craft with doing so at the expense of the dignity of his ex and their kids.

  76. I did assume that you were without children by choice, Steve, because you were referring to Amanda as being like you, and I’m quite certain that she is both childless and happy to be so. It was an assumption, but one based on your post, not on your status. I apologize for my mistake. I still stand by the post and what it says about the discourse surrounding people who have/want children.

    The first sentence was not a parody of your post at all. It was a point of commonality with your post and a reach for understanding.

  77. I did assume that you were without children by choice, Steve, because you were referring to Amanda as being like you, and I’m quite certain that she is both childless and happy to be so. It was an assumption, but one based on your post, not on your status. I apologize for my mistake. I still stand by the post and what it says about the discourse surrounding people who have/want children.

    Well, y’know there’s happy and there’s happy. Like you could describe yourself as happy to be single, but that doesn’t mean you wouldn’t be happy if you found the right person as a partner.

    Plus, you make choices for a variety of reasons and though I am happy with the choices that we made regarding children (not to risk my wife’s health, not to adopt,) you always have ‘might have beens’ and possible regrets. God, I’m about to start crying…I think it’s a bad time of the year for me…

  78. Good god it is awful awful awful awful in every way for me to be stuck in a marriage without sex. (I pause to acknowledge that some people don’t want sex in their marriage, and that’s OK as long as both partners agree). Agreed, the Braly article demonstrates that he is a jerk, and nursing at 5 seems to be at the far edge of our cultural norms. But. When sex goes out of a marriage it is really painful – it takes me back to feelings I had in school when girls were mature and graceful beings and I was a purple faced pimply weirdo who had yet to learn how to be a human being (much less a gentleman, or a mensch if you prefer.) The anger and frustration is something to confront and control every day.

    Imagine having an intimate and loving connection with someone for years, and then having that break down. We talk about it. Our conversation goes something like this.

    Me: You know, we have a real problem to deal with here.
    Her: Yes I know, but we can’t address it now. I’m burnt out and don’t have the energy to deal with it.
    Me: But we need to work on this now.
    Her: Yeah. Well, (our youngest) will be in school full time next fall, and maybe I’ll be able to pick up the pieces then.

    We’ve been having this conversation for years now, and I can’t help but think that maybe when I finally win the lottery we’ll be able to use our newfound wealth to make the problem go away. But I think more practically, we’re either going to have to open up our marriage to other people or divorce.

    So I give Braly credit for shining a light on a problem that actually does exist – the sex going out of marriage. I don’t give him any credit for the way he wrote it and the underlying attitudes the article revealed.

  79. it takes me back to feelings I had in school when girls were mature and graceful beings and I was a purple faced pimply weirdo who had yet to learn how to be a human being

    I get tired of this trope. We were not mature and graceful. We were just as anxious, humiliated by our appearance, weird, and miserable as you were.

  80. Archie: personally, I wouldn’t want to fuck someone who puts his orgasm ahead of the welfare of his children. Maybe your wife feels the same way.

    And if painful = being an adolescent with zits, it’s no wonder you aren’t able to support your wife in her process of raising your children.

  81. Agreed, the Braly article demonstrates that he is a jerk, and nursing at 5 seems to be at the far edge of our cultural norms

    nursing at 5 may not be the norm, but nursing past the first few months is also not the norm. That doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with it, though, aside from the fact that people feel the right to opine on how other people feed their kids.
    (My son nursed til 3, we’re vegans and I thought boobjuice was better than soy formula, or cowmilk formula. I was also POOR and couldn’t have afforded either, anyway. Free milk is awesome.)

    and last I checked the average age of weaning worldwide is about 4; a natural age of weaning humans is between 2 and 7, according to the American Academy of Family Physicians.

    But. When sex goes out of a marriage it is really painful

    Agreed, doesn’t mean that nursing was to blame. My ex cheated because he wanted to, not because I was nursing, and not because I was unwilling.
    From what Braly describes, he is the one who is unwilling, just because he thinks boobs are icky when they get used for their biological purpose, so much so that he’d rather cheat with some non-nursing woman than have sex with his wife while she isn’t feeding their kids. (which really is the ideal time for sex– While not feeding kids, regardless of how they’re being fed.)

  82. We’ve been having this conversation for years now, and I can’t help but think that maybe when I finally win the lottery we’ll be able to use our newfound wealth to make the problem go away. But I think more practically, we’re either going to have to open up our marriage to other people or divorce.

    Archie, assuming for the sake of discussion that you aren’t trolling, I would tell you that some serious introspection on your part together with a healthy dose of compassion and understanding where your wife is concerned is the only way you are going to get a handle on such a situation.

    Fapping around on the internet (or worse yet, in a major U.S. newspaper) about how your hard it is for you to not get laid will get you nowhere. Maybe, just maybe, all of your whining and pressuring and treating your wife like she’s either the babymama or the sex receptacle is a big turn off for her. Be someone she wants to fuck, and maybe it will start to happen a whole lot more easily, for both of you.

  83. Archie: We have a problem!
    Archie’s wife: Yes, we do. The problem is that I’m burnt out from meeting the needs of our children.
    Archie: No, the problem is that I’m not getting any.

  84. Yeah, from the conversation you report, it sounds like “have sex” is one more damn thing your wife feels like she’s “supposed” to be doing. That is not a turn-on. She’s telling you the reason is that she feels burnt out. What is it that’s burning her out, and how can you help make that stop?

  85. LOL, Past my expiration date.

    That sound you hear, it’s the point sailing right over Archie’s head.

  86. I am sure that there was a study recently showing that men who did more housework had more sex. Which seems obvious…unless you’re the All About My Boner sort like Archie here.

  87. So I give Braly credit for shining a light on a problem that actually does exist – the sex going out of marriage.

    Archie, while I do have some sympathy for your plight, I think that between pop culture and the patriarchy informing us of it every six second as a Real Problem(TM), pretty much all women are ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that the sex going out of marriage is an actual problem. Seriously.

  88. I sympathize with anyone in Archie’s position myself, because I know what that can be like, but what exactly is he doing to try to help the situation so his wife doesn’t feel so burned out? Obviously, whining and complaining isn’t doing the trick.

    I wish that my being in that position had been something that could have been worked on in some way. In my case, my former spouse’s stated reason for no longer being interested in having sex for the last ten years of our marriage (beginning about six months after our son was born) was “I don’t find you physically attractive anymore.” There wasn’t much I could do about that. So I just never mentioned the subject again for the next ten years.

  89. I hope his wife has kicked this clown out of her bedroom. What an asshole. Who would want to have sex with him?

  90. wait this was supposed to be a comedy piece?

    Of course, really, it’s supposed to be funny, why aren’t you all laughing?

    No one gets to call me savage without buying me a leopard-print short frock first.

    Savage, and fierce…

  91. I sympathize with anyone in Archie’s position myself, because I know what that can be like, but what exactly is he doing to try to help the situation so his wife doesn’t feel so burned out? Obviously, whining and complaining isn’t doing the trick.

    I doubt that Archie is all that reliable of a narrator, what with his disinterest in solving the whys of his wife being burned out juxtaposed with his laser like focus on his neglected penis.

  92. @ Lauren-

    “I have a profoundly bizarre, mostly negative relationship with my physical self, but the physical experience of pregnancy, childbirth, and post-partum recovery has neither been good for my mental health or my sex life, which is basically nil. Am I ringing any bells with anyone else here?”

    I am not an assault survivor, but I, too, have never felt the same about my body or about sex since I had my children. My screwed up view of my body and my lack of libido since having children have caused my marriage to become almost sexless. The saddest part of that fact? That I’m not sure I care. Everybody’s experience of pregnancy, childbirth and motherhood is different, of course, but I think it’s not uncommon for women to view their bodies and sex differently after they become mothers.

  93. Savage, and fierce…

    Lolagirl, I will expect my short frock AND high boots in the mail… and coupons for those Impeccable Waxes the “women of the jungle” always seem to have…. 😛

  94. Wow. I write about intimacy and connection going out of my marriage, and immediately @pmed @lolagirl and @Q grrrl assume -that it’s about my boner and my orgasm, that I’m deficient as a husband and a father, that I put my sex life ahead of my childrens’ welfare, that I lack compassion for my wife, that I’m disinterested in solving “the problem,” that I need to be more introspective, and ha ha ha ha that I have a laser like focus on my penis. On the one hand, I have to hold myself accountable for some of that response because maybe I didn’t, or couldn’t, lay out the whole story of my marriage of 20 years in a few paragraphs. And it’s not like I come to Feministe looking for sympathy – to the contrary, I’m interested in hearing people who do not share my background/point of view/point of reference. I’ve commented here before. But on the other hand, sometimes people are just unkind.

    Anyhow – @eg – yes I’m tired of that trope too, but I was only speaking about my experience. No doubt many of us, male and female alike had an awkward and miserable adolescence. But then we grew up! We had wonderful friendships and found fulfilling relationships! We made each other feel good!

    I don’t know @macavitykitsune – maybe pop culture and patriarchy are to blame for my feeling that maintaining sexual personhood throughout my adult life is important. Anyhow, my wife and I are a good team. We are good parents to our children and we BOTH work hard to make our home a happy and loving home. ‘The Problem’ is that even though we like each other and help each other every day, we don’t have sex at all now – haven’t for years. As to why I commented, what I’m hoping to learn is whether anyone knows of someone who has “made it back” from our situation, and how they did it.

  95. @Archie,

    There are acceptable ways to negotiate sexual differences in a relationship and unacceptable ways. If you believe that she is exhausted then you have basically there options 1) find a way to relieve that exhaustion, 2) wait patiently for life to sort itself out, or 3) leave. Note none of these options include public shaming or rudely disregarding your wife’s feelings or attempting to coerce or nag her into fulfilling your needs.

  96. @Archie,

    I think the fundamental disconnect is you’re talking about your own experience, but you’re speaking in the context of an article about an utter douchebag who positively oozes misogyny and a creepy pedo edge (in sexual competition with his sons? really?). So, you coming in to talk about how he’s brought a major problem “to light” is like my going into a comment thread on starving London orphans in WW2 and saying “but at least we got the Lord of the Rings out of this war!” or something. I get that you’re trying to get advice/offer perspective, but this thread really, really isn’t the place. Sorry, dude.

  97. Ok, this comment is WRT the alleged “lol stupid breeders” sentiment, and the claim that people without children have no idea how stressful/exhausting/emotionally-fraught parenting is.

    I read the “reinforces my beliefs” comment not in a “Haha stupid parents” way, but in the spirit of “This confirms to me the life-altering commitment, the increased public scrutiny/pressure/body-policing, and the complete inability to win, regardless of the path(s) chosen- involved in parenting. It confirms to me that my choices were the right ones, as I’d rather regret not having children, than regret having them”.

    Perhaps my interpretation is overly generous, who knows.

    I do not have children, I will never have children. When I see comment threads where people discuss being shamed for breastfeeding alongside people who’ve been shamed for not breastfeeding, criticised for being too attached or not attached enough, for using a pushchair* and not using one, for co-sleeping and for using a cot^, etc, then I’m relieved that I’m not a parent. It doesn’t come from a place of inner superiority, in fact, it’s quite the opposite. It reinforces my belief that I’m simply not a good enough person to go through it all, that any child of mine could not get the 110% she deserves.

    I’ve been accused, along with virtually every other childfree person I know, of not giving the idea of parenting enough thought. For me, personally, I’ve put an immense amount of thought into it. I care so much for the purely theoretical child that I’ve chosen to let her remain theoretical.

    I’ve been accused of hating parents and children, solely for the fact that I won’t be having children. I don’t though, and it’s often curiously bittersweet watching friends and family members raising their children, knowing that it’s not something that’s ahead of me.

    I’ve seen how difficult it is, how rewarding it is, how frustrating, joyful, maddening and delightful it is. The relief/envy confirms my choices rather than making me doubt them, but it’s hard to explain that in any concrete manner (even anon like this) because it’s so bloody complicated and emotional.

    I’ve been called a monster, selfish, evil, hateful, immature, pathetic, childish and much, much more, just because I am steadfast, and refuse to “just think about it” any more.

    Those insults and labels, although they’ve often resulted in tears and not insignificant distress, still confirm I’m on the right path. They clarify the reality that unwarranted criticism/abuse is hard enough for me to handle, that the same metrics applied to a tiny person and the choices regarding their care, would be devastating. As every single decision contributes to who a child becomes, as every word and deed has to be measured and mindful, it’s not a task to be taken on by the likes of me.

    So, it’s because of the respect I have for parents and parenting, that I’m not going down that path. It’s got nothing to do with sex, money, or free time, and everything to do with an appreciation and admiration for how all-consuming and life-altering it can be.

    For me to say “This confirms my choices” means only that with every passing year I get an even deeper insight into how wrong it would have been for me to have had children.

    I’m sure I can’t be the only one with that viewpoint, who’s making their decision on behalf of that potential child.

    *stroller, **crib

  98. I’ve never been a fan of the tired old trope that women prefer jerky guys, but I have to say that the reaction to this article makes me see how that mis-impression is fostered. I don’t think Braly could have said anything at all positive towards women which would have received this much attention in the feminist blogosphere. Now, I know attention does not equal positive interest, but as I said, I can see why situations like this cause stupid people to come to that conclusion.

  99. I think the fundamental disconnect is you’re talking about your own experience, but you’re speaking in the context of an article about an utter douchebag who positively oozes misogyny and a creepy pedo edge (in sexual competition with his sons? really?).

    This is also what set off my radar.

    Listen Archie, I think I still gave you some solid advice in my previous comment. Do more than just be a good parenting partner to your wife, be the person she wants to fuck. Figure out why she’s burnt out, and how you can both alleviate that situation. Even though you claim that you work hard to make your home a happy and loving one for your kids that doesn’t tell us (or you or your wife) anything about what you do for her.

    Of course it isn’t supposed to be a one way street in favor of your wife, but if you come to place like Feministe with this sort of comment we are going to point out that men’s perceptions that they are splitting household and parenting duties 50/50 are often way, way off. I’m too lazy right now to google around for statistics and studies, but there have been oodles of them backing up the position that men who think they are doing their fair share are really doing more like 20% to 30% of the total load of work around the house and that even partnered women who work outside the house still disproportionately do something like 70% of the household and parenting duties in comparison with their spouses.

    That is why I and others here are skeptical of your utter cluelessness and lack of ownership wrt the decline of your sexual relationship with your wife.

  100. and coupons for those Impeccable Waxes the “women of the jungle” always seem to have….

    macavitykitsune, you got yourself a deal! But I’m keeping a couple for myself as well. From what I hear, that sort of stuff is supposed to turn the husbands right on…

  101. I think, @macavitykitsune, you need to re-read Jill’s original post. It was about the need for thoughtful discussion about a real problem. I’m not Braly, (I was disgusted by his article,) but there is a similar problem in my marriage. I know you think its a trivial problem, but that says more about you than about what people go through in their lives.

    @lolagirl you can speculate about why, or my degree of ownership of the problem, or point out the famous studies about household duties, but you don’t know me or my life.

  102. @lolagirl you can speculate about why, or my degree of ownership of the problem, or point out the famous studies about household duties, but you don’t know me or my life.

    In other words, I’ve tried nothing and nothing’s worked.

    I’m still not going to back down and tell you it’s all on your wife. You seem pretty determined to insinuate it’s all her fault and that we are all ganging up on you, so whatever. Nobody here has said that diminished sexual frequency in a marriage/partnered relationship is a trivial issue, that’s you once again missing the point entirely.

    If your wife was once good and game and is no longer good and game, then there are real, concrete reasons for that happening. You have 3 options here, you can get a divorce, let inertia continue to get in the way of a solution or you can do the real work involved in saving your marriage.

    To summarize, marriage is a two way street, sex drives can diminish in either one or both partners for a myriad of reasons post-pregnancy and babies, men often underestimate their own contribution to their wive’s diminished sexual drive by not carrying their own weight, fapping around on the internet is not going to get you husband cookies or solve your marital woes and James Braly is a sexist, degenerate attention whore of the first order.

  103. I’ve never been a fan of the tired old trope that women prefer jerky guys, but I have to say that the reaction to this article makes me see how that mis-impression is fostered.

    Really? It reads more like a cautionary tale combined with a whole lot of fear mongering for women to renew fear about how parenting can get in the way of their husband’s sexual desire for them.

  104. Really? It reads more like a cautionary tale combined with a whole lot of fear mongering for women to renew fear about how parenting can get in the way of their husband’s sexual desire for them.

    I wasn’t saying that’s how the article read, I was merely saying that in my opinion the attention given to the article was far greater than it or the author deserved mostly because he was such a jerk.

  105. @macavitykitsune, you need to re-read Jill’s original post. It was about the need for thoughtful discussion about a real problem. I’m not Braly, (I was disgusted by his article,) but there is a similar problem in my marriage.

    Facefuckingpalm.

    First off, the thesis of the article is:

    But it would have been nice to see a decent take on the impact that attachment parenting can have on a marriage when it becomes a barrier to intimacy, or an article about how attachment parenting very much feeds into traditional ideals about women existing to serve and sacrifice for their children

    Jill goes on to discuss those issues. So, you’re having an issue with a sexless marriage? Right. What are you doing about that, aside from repeatedly bringing up that you have a problem? If you want advice tailored to your situation, you might try giving us your situation. Do you know how exhausting burnout is, and are you doing anything to alleviate it?

    I know you think its a trivial problem, but that says more about you than about what people go through in their lives.

    Archie, I never said it was a trivial problem. Seriously, point out where I even implied that. You can’t, can you? In fact, if you recall, I was one of the ones who actually expressed sympathy for you. Of course, when I pointed out that women are aware that this problem is a problem, you responded with some bullshit about how I think the patriarchy’s telling you you should have sexual personhood even though you shouldn’t. I’m rapidly losing this patience in the face of the waaaaahhhhfest you’re putting up, particularly since you’re deliberately misreading everything that’s being said.

    And frankly, with how skyscraperiffic your defensiveness is, if you were doing anything around the house or with the kids for her, instead of just blaming your finances for everything (which, as a kid who grew up surrounded by both financial issues and a loving, egalitarian partnership), you’d have brandished it triumphantly in our faces by now. So yeah, I’m thinking you’re in the whole providing=love trap. Fix it, and in the meantime jerk off a lot and hope for better days. Or, you know, open up your marriage like you said and stop pestering the woman.

  106. I’ve never been a fan of the tired old trope that women prefer jerky guys, but I have to say that the reaction to this article makes me see how that mis-impression is fostered. I don’t think Braly could have said anything at all positive towards women which would have received this much attention in the feminist blogosphere.

    Steve, I…really don’t get what you’re after, with this comment. I don’t think anyone would prefer Braly because of this attitude. Hell, isn’t the woman he’s writing about divorcing him right now? (Which just adds a whole other layer of public shaming to this, btw, don’t you think?)

  107. the claim that people without children have no idea how stressful/exhausting/emotionally-fraught parenting is.

    Partial Human, nobody said that. What I said is that people who are happily without children sometimes underestimate the amount of pressure those of us who do want/have children are under.

  108. I’ve never been a fan of the tired old trope that women prefer jerky guys, but I have to say that the reaction to this article makes me see how that mis-impression is fostered. I don’t think Braly could have said anything at all positive towards women which would have received this much attention in the feminist blogosphere. Now, I know attention does not equal positive interest, but as I said, I can see why situations like this cause stupid people to come to that conclusion.

    Of course we wouldn’t. Portraying women like regular people with their own problems instead of blaming them for their own is basic decency. Feminists would not go out of their way to fawn all over a person meeting the baseline requirement for not being awful. Insert that annoying joke complaint about Whatchoo want a cookie? here.

    Meanwhile, feminists have to write and write to counter crap like this in the mainstream that attempts to further normalize sexism and misogyny among nice guy types who think their misogyny and sexism is normal, just to get to the point where women are portrayed as regular people and not sex villains.

  109. Ms Donna, I am truly sorry you had to go through ten years of such stalemate. Even when choices available aren’t particularly pleasant, lack or reduction of choice(s) can often make a situation feel worse.

    As for the post/thread as a whole, my general ideas are close enough to Ms Jill’s as to make very little difference.

  110. Steve, I…really don’t get what you’re after, with this comment. I don’t think anyone would prefer Braly because of this attitude. Hell, isn’t the woman he’s writing about divorcing him right now? (Which just adds a whole other layer of public shaming to this, btw, don’t you think?)

    Sorry, mac, I guess i worded that badly…I meant that feminists are now paying attention to this guy and writing articles about him, despite him being a quite insignificant figure.

  111. Of course we wouldn’t. Portraying women like regular people with their own problems instead of blaming them for their own is basic decency. Feminists would not go out of their way to fawn all over a person meeting the baseline requirement for not being awful. Insert that annoying joke complaint about Whatchoo want a cookie? here.

    Meanwhile, feminists have to write and write to counter crap like this in the mainstream that attempts to further normalize sexism and misogyny among nice guy types who think their misogyny and sexism is normal, just to get to the point where women are portrayed as regular people and not sex villains.

    Karen, YES! That is what I meant. I was not at all implying it was a good thing, just a vicious cycle/circle.

  112. “To summarize, marriage is a two way street, sex drives can diminish in either one or both partners for a myriad of reasons post-pregnancy and babies, men often underestimate their own contribution to their wive’s diminished sexual drive by not carrying their own weight, fapping around on the internet is not going to get you husband cookies or solve your marital woes and James Braly is a sexist, degenerate attention whore of the first order.”

    FTW! (although I do wish $X_whore insults would just go away already, I agree with the sentiment).

    Partial Human – I really appreciate your comment. There are myriad ways in which P tries to box us in, and I really think a lot of the vitriol aimed at people who are childfree by choice has to do with how “non-compliant” that choice is, particularly for women. I also think a lot of what you relate has to do with the “crabs in a bucket” mentality that many people who *are* chafing inside their boxes feel. Not to excuse this at all – if there is anything that grates my gorganzola, it’s people who seek to drag others INTO their misery, rather than work to alleviate the misery.

    The meta part of me thinks that it wasn’t until I became a mom that P *really* got it’s hooks into me. It feels like the consequences of “non-compliance” got exponentially steeper at that point. Not getting married entailed legal problems (eg custody, medical decision making, increased taxes, &etc) that were really big risks and costs. So we went ahead and got married almost a year ahead of when we were talking about – and with some major stuff unresolved. Now, where once we could each just have gone our separate ways, there are Consequences that make dissolving our P-approved family formation a non-viable option at this time. We’re essentially coerced into making the choice for the status quo on financial and social grounds.

    Upon my new motherhood status, my career began to suffer. While lip-service is given to “family first”, in reality, all that FMLA* time impacted my evaluations, my raises and my promotions.

    And certainly, my vulnerability to P-inspired charges of Not Doing It Right(TM) increased. No choice that a woman makes goes unscrutinized or uncriticized, but once I occupied the role of The Mom, I felt quadruplely exposed. The more so because there WAS, in fact, another person who *would* suffer the consequences of my Not Doing It Right. I could blow a lot of that ridiculous stuff off much more easily during my first 4 childfree decades, than I have been able to in my last decade as a Mom.

    And here is another tidbit; I’m not sure how exactly this plays out for non cis/het families, but this is a consequence of when Mom isn’t able to bring home the bacon fry it up in a pan and never never let him forget he’s a man: Mom is tired from All The Mother Things. Nooky is relegated – whether from fatigue, the parent’s mix of emotions regarding kid’s needs & new mommy body, lack of time, whatever – to the background. Mom has new priorities – ones with legal AND social ramifications disproportionately attributed to Mom rather than her partner. Partner is dissatisfied with Low Nooky Levels. So partner decides (and people advise) “Divorce!” *Then* the current system penalizes Mom. Mom & child(ren) experience up to a 50% drop in income, increased likelihood of poverty, and increased likelihood of future underemployment.

    Of course, the answer here is NOT staying in unhappy marriages, but creating systems where parenting is better supported and people are better able to choose without strong societal coercion.

    (* Family Medical Leave Act, a US law intended to protects your job if you need maternity or sick leave to care for yourself/your immediate family.)

  113. Hey, Mac, I really do appreciate your taking the time to address my comments here. It is educational. I know that posting anonymously on the internet can make one a “straw Archie,” so I don’t take what you are saying all that personally. Lolagirl – I don’t think anyone would ever take your advice seriously – even if it were good advice – because of your hateful mode of expression.

    As tempted as I am to provide more detail, I think the best thing is to let this one go, and see you around on another thread.

  114. IrishUp – exactly. If the P keeps hammering at my non-compliant status, and I buckle under the strain of not being heterosexual, of not being able to work, of living with and loving another woman, then I go down. But I have a safety net of sorts. My partner can support me, I don’t have to focus on anything but getting better, and the fallout is localised to our house.

    If there’s a Little partially human person, buckling isn’t an option. Not only because the Little PH would require care, but because (as any minority will well you) if I can’t put 150% in, if I stumble and fall, I’m suddenly a reflection on every disabled parent, on every same-sex parenting unit. It’s “That’s why PWD/queers shouldn’t be allowed to have kids”, rather than “That’s why the Ms. P Humans shouldn’t have had kids”.

    Whatever we choose we bear the weight of non-compliance to patriarchal norms. At least this way though, no innocent child is caught in the crossfire. Thank you for getting it.

    @EG – once again, maybe we DO get it. As I’ve already said, have you ever thought that maybe that’s why we’re happy, because we’ve already seen (and often experienced) that exact same pressure, and we know we’ve escaped it.

    I don’t live in a bubble on Childfree Island. My friends have children, my family members have children. I don’t have special CF earplugs or a CF blindfold. I fucking know only too well that no woman can do anything right, that the judgement and pressure magnifies tenfold for every child placed into the equation.

    Actually, I was full-time carer (guardian, 24/7 for almost a year) for a baby who’d been removed from a family member. If that didn’t screw the nails into the coffin of my motherhood, nothing else could. I loved her, I hated the judgement.

    I’ve been told I’m !a freak, unnatural, not a real woman, because of my choices. Hurts like hell, but it’s preferable to a life that could see me producing a child that would have been better off not being born, because of what such pressure and scrutiny could do to me personally.

  115. Lolagirl – I don’t think anyone would ever take your advice seriously – even if it were good advice – because of your hateful mode of expression.

    As tempted as I am to provide more detail, I think the best thing is to let this one go, and see you around on another thread.

    Archie, I know you are gone and this seems like a waste of my time to respond to you, but perhaps a Future Archie will read this and consider.

    If you think Lolagirl’s advice is important, her mode of expression is irrelevant. You seem to be (warning! link to personal blog on a Thursday ahead) focusing on the delivery rather than the message, which is a time-honored strategy of silencing women by shaming them for having bad manners. And no one here needs to hear more detail from you, which would probably be extra points in your favor at the expense of your wife who probably isn’t here to defend herself. If these details you are tempted to leave were truly the most salient, explanatory points that put your situation in the clearest light, you would have started your story with them. Instead, you gave us the headline and main points already, and nobody was convinced, and pointed out problems, but you don’t want to address those problems, so you are going with Downgrading Opposition instead of Personal Reflection towards Real Change.

    Do whatever you want. But don’t reinforce the idea that women are only valuable when they are being nice to men and expect people to have sympathy for you.

    1. sorry, KarenX but i gotta disagree—-mode of expression IS relevant—-it makes the difference between somebody listening to what you have to say, or getting defensive and writing you off as a crank

  116. Lolagirl – I don’t think anyone would ever take your advice seriously – even if it were good advice – because of your hateful mode of expression.

    Hateful, really, hateful? If you think I’ve been hateful towards you then you must be quite sheltered in the life you’ve lead so far. That, or you have an enormously huge persection complex.

    I agree with KarenX, you’re trying to shut me down for my supposed tone is just more fail on your part. I’ve been perfectly civil with you, refusing to give you the kid glove treatment and just agree with you is not being hateful. There have been no ad-homs in my comments or personal attacks, just disagreement and explanations as to why I disagree.

    Consider this a lesson learned, being a woman is not going to result in my turning tail and running away in tears because your now resorting to name calling. Ditto for the other commenters here at Feministe. You put yourself out there by yourself posting a comment, you don’t get to then shut down anyone who may happen to disagree with you. So either don your asbestos undies and engage in some good faith debate, or get lost.

  117. Ms Donna, I am truly sorry you had to go through ten years of such stalemate.

    Thank you. No need to call me “Ms.” Donna, though. I’m not Scarlett O’Hara.

    Perhaps I should have accepted that things were never going to improve, and ended the marriage years before my ex finally did so, but the thought of doing that never really crossed my mind. For the obvious reason, rather than because I really seriously believed that my ex’s mind would ever change.

    And because of that obvious reason, I don’t regret what I did, despite feeling very sad at times that that because I waited so long, I didn’t begin my transition until I was in my 40’s. Those ten years were very important, and I wouldn’t give them up even for that.

  118. . So either don your asbestos undies and engage in some good faith debate, or get lost.

    All right. Good faith it is. You think that I’m lying about my marriage and you’ve said as much in every one of your responses to me. You also say that I miss the point of your comments, because they sail over my head (e.g. I’m dense or lack intelligence). When I say that it really sucks to be in a sexless relationship, you immediately assume that the reason is because I’m a poor partner, selfish, obsessed with getting “husband cookies”, uncaring etc. When I say that’s not true, you say I’m lying, and when I call you out for a nasty attitude, you respond that I have some kind of “persecution complex.” I wouldn’t call that good faith debate.

    But anyway, if you’re willing to debate in good faith – unlike the other commenter above who said she considered everything I write to be lies – then I would be interested in hearing more from you. Go ahead, speak your mind.

    First, since this is an issue for some, we’re not wealthy, but our family lives on my income alone – it would be better if we had more, but I wouldn’t say we face any financial hardship. I work very hard at my job, and I must because I’m self-employed. I cannot contribute 50% of the household labor because of my other obligations to our family. My wife is very well educated and capable of work, but chooses not to – if she did, I would gladly take on 50% of the household labor. I would make adjustments – I’m self-employed so I can actually do that. I enjoy my kids, and know how wearying it can be to take care of them all day. We have been to counseling on and off, over the years, and we work at our relationship. When we don’t see eye to eye about things, we’ve learned how to talk about it. Our kids are adopted, and breastfeeding was never an issue a la Braly (although I think it pains my wife that she couldn’t breastfeed.)

    But here’s the thing: we can’t seem to broach the topic of the missing sex life, and it seems like this is an issue for many couples. We keep pushing it off to “when we have time to deal with it.” But when will that be? It doesn’t look like we’ll have time to address our sex life any time soon – I mean, we’re out of diapers and strollers now, but as kids grow, the emotional demands grow too. Maybe having kids inevitably leads to burnout for some people. Maybe my wife needs to spend less time with the kids and more time focused on herself – I’m sure we could make that work – but she doesn’t seem to want to. Why? Is it guilt? Is it more rewarding to burn out as a caregiver to children than to engage in a loving adult relationship?

  119. Is it more rewarding to burn out as a caregiver to children than to engage in a loving adult relationship?

    Good faith comment: I think you should stop generalizing. Your wife is burnt out. Is it more rewarding for your wife to burn out as a caregiver to her and your children than it is for your wife to engage in a loving adult relationship with you? If so, then you both need to address that head-on–is it about her feelings for you? is she depressed? does she feel unappreciated by you? does she secretly want to go back to work but doesn’t know where to begin? who knows–unless you specifically talk to her. Because this isn’t about generalities; this is about specifics. Couples counselors are particularly good when the problem is communication (well, good couples counselors are, anyway). Perhaps you should rephrase the issue into one where you see a counselor in order to help the two of you communicate about your frustrations (loss of sex life) and her feelings of being burnt out. Once you have those channels of communication clear, the possible resolutions may become clear as well.

  120. I think the following is really great, QFT

    you both need to address that head-on–is it about her feelings for you? is she depressed? does she feel unappreciated by you? does she secretly want to go back to work but doesn’t know where to begin? who knows–unless you specifically talk to her. Because this isn’t about generalities; this is about specifics.

    Also, I’ve stated at least twice now that you need to be more than a good parenting partner to your wife, you need to sit down and figure out if there is more you can do to make yourself as attractive to her as you apparently once were when you first got together. If you can just figure out why she’s feeling burned out, that will go a long way towards figuring out how you can both alleviate that situation.

    I am a SAHM myself, I can tell from first hand experience that it can be so much more taxing emotionally and physically than you might imagine. Add into that the reality that SAHMs often face a great deal of social pressure to make it all look effortless and like we are the happiest we’ve ever been, ever, and it can make it even more stressful at times. I get it that you are the sole income earner in your family and that it translates into a great deal of stress as well, but if that means you are unavailable to help out more at home and with the kids then you really need to find ways to take some of the stress off your wife. Get a babysitter in to help a few times a week and/or additional paid help with the household stuff. Take the time time to verbally and otherwise acknowledge her hard work, and make sure she understands how much you appreciate her.

    I sometimes half joke to my husband that I would find it a huge turn-on if he went and cleaned the bathroom, in part so that it takes some of the work off my plate, but also because it helps to reassure me that he sees me as more than just a domestic goddess and mother of his kids.

  121. But here’s the thing: we can’t seem to broach the topic of the missing sex life, and it seems like this is an issue for many couples.

    And you say you don’t know what the problem is?

    I would imagine nearly every marriage goes through moments where the intimacy is difficult/strained for a variety of reasons. You HAVE to be able to talk about it or you are doomed. How else is the other person going to know what you’re feeling? (Apart from reading about it in The New York Times, of course.) Whether or not it is an issue for other couples is completely irrelevant to your particular relationship.

  122. When I say that it really sucks to be in a sexless relationship, you immediately assume that the reason is because I’m a poor partner, selfish, obsessed with getting “husband cookies”, uncaring etc. When I say that’s not true, you say I’m lying, and when I call you out for a nasty attitude, you respond that I have some kind of “persecution complex.” I wouldn’t call that good faith debate.

    Btw, I never once called you a liar or said that you were lying, please be honest and go back to read what I wrote, because those words never appeared once in my comments. I did imply that you were not doing enough to carry your weight in your marriage, the fact that you said you your wife was burned out is enough evidence to support such an assumption. That does not necessarily translate to you being a bad person. However, your seeming refusal to even consider that you may have a part to play in your wife’s missing interest in sex sent up some red flags that you were putting all the blame on her and refusing to take any responsibility on for yourself.

    One last point from your comment that has left me miffed is your assertion that you would be willing to do 50% of the housework if your wife started to WOHM at some point. If you are currently falling into the trap of assuming your wife’s status as a SAHM is to also do 100% of the house-related work in addition to the child care I can pretty much guarantee you that this may very well be why she is so burned out and turned off from sex. Really, this is a hugely big deal that I am not overstating. If you want her to feel good and game then feeling like she is more than just a domestic worker in your eyes will go a long way to achieving that goal.

  123. Just to chime in, I always like how it’s assumed that the economic value of the working spouse (usually the father) is equal to the economic value of the stay at home spouse (usually the mother), without ever sitting down and determining a market rate for her child care and house keeping labor. It’s entirely possible that her contributions are worth more money than your salary, and that suggesting what she does is equal or less than to what you do (and therefore she ought to do all the house stuff) and that this bargain of her doing X and you not doing any X because you are doing Y is shortchanging her. But that’s just me chiming in, and not really contributing productively to the conversation. But it’s a pretty big unstated assumption–that the house/child stuff is not more valuable than the paid stuff–that no one ever seems to bother to figure out the truth of.

  124. Thanks for your comments and for your good faith advice. As Jill pointed out in the initial post, it is of interest to consider the effects of child-centric parenting on the parents’ relationship with one another. We’ve been together for 20 years and have been through a lot, and we have our own unique set of circumstances. But while every couple is unique, there are experiences common to many couples, and people do swim in social currents.

    It seems like a fair number of people burn out at our stage of life, and the way we take care of our kids and our household is mostly exhausting. I don’t think we’re unique here and I think it is relevant how other couples address these issues.

    And – not to miff anyone further here – I’d like to note that on a personal level, between me and my wife, I’m the more tidy and spatially organized one. This can unfortunately lead to stress (another burden and expectation to meet!) so I’ve learned to back off. But really, I’m happy to do my part in the house and with our kids.

  125. And – not to miff anyone further here – I’d like to note that on a personal level, between me and my wife, I’m the more tidy and spatially organized one. This can unfortunately lead to stress (another burden and expectation to meet!) so I’ve learned to back off. But really, I’m happy to do my part in the house and with our kids.

    I was seriously considering letting this go, but alas I just can’t.

    The better solution here Archie is to not simply lower your standards, but to do whatever it that isn’t meeting your exacting standards yourself. If it was causing your wife more stress to do things your way and you think it’s all better now that you’ve told her your willing to stop insisting whatever be done the way you wanted don’t assume it’s that easy. Really, my husband once tried this sort of thing on me, except I pushed back and he now does those things himself the way he wants them done, because anything less than that solution would have left me feeling like he was still silently judging and unhappy with my way. Going out on a limb here, but maybe your wife feels similarly?

    As Jill pointed out in the initial post, it is of interest to consider the effects of child-centric parenting on the parents’ relationship with one another.

    As you’ve already admitted, your kids are now out of the diapers and strollers years. Which translates to much of the more labor intenstive, hands on parenting is now behind you. Are you still holding on to past butthurt about how those years went down? If so, you need to address it and move on. If the current parenting stuff is still coming between you then work out solutions that you both agree with.

    I know it isn’t necessarily a popular opinion here, but the parenting years can be hard work emotionally for a couple. They just are, once you bring in new people who are learning to hold and express opnions that may conflict with their parents it only gets more complicated, and the conflict can only increase if the parents are already not on the same page about how to parent. So get on the same page, and work with your wife to find mutually agreeable solutions and parenting tactics. Compromise and compassion are your friends, Archie, don’t underestimate them.

  126. Archie, I want you to take a few minutes out of your day and arrange for a sitter. Then take Mrs. Archie out to dinner and tell her– honey, I love you so much and love everything you do. For me, for the kids, everything. It makes me sad that YOU miss out on the beautiful experience we call sex. What can I do for you to help you experience those feelings of warmth and connection and desire? Can I back off the pressure? Can I do something different? Let’s talk about what can be done to reunite you with your body because I love you so much.” If my ex had ever said those words to me, in any form, instead of “we’re never going to have sex again, are we?” Three days after I came home from the hospital with the baby, he wouldn’t be my ex.

  127. Thanks. Although I was ready to walk away a while ago, I appreciate the inquiry and feel it was worth it to reveal some personal detail. It seems I got better than I deserve and more than I expected from Feministe commenters.

    Lolagirl – it’s not about lowering standards for me – it’s more about turf and control. It seems important to my wife to be in control of what happens in the house, and how it happens than it is for me to have everything in its place. A detail. We’re working on it.

    Thanks again.

  128. sorry, KarenX but i gotta disagree—-mode of expression IS relevant—-it makes the difference between somebody listening to what you have to say, or getting defensive and writing you off as a crank

    That’s all well and good, but I think the record will reflect that my mode of expression towards Archie (which is what Karen was specifically addressing) may have been a touch terse it was otherwise perfectly civil. The bigger issue is what Karen also mentioned, specifically that USian society expects us women to be nice and get along and thus not disagree too strongly with others lest we upset them or make them uncomfortable. Making the opposition uncomfortable or upset will then make it fair game for them to name call and shut down their womanly opposition. That’s crap, pure and simple.

    1. point well taken—i have run afoul of the niceness police many times myself and niceness is NOT always called for—-i was not criticising your response to archie—just challenging the idea that mode of expression doesnt count—-it does—-the way you express a disagreement can make the difference between somebody actually hearing what you have to say or being so busy with their fight-or-flight response that your words literally dont register—-also archies comment that no one will take you seriously was mega-condescending—–the real problem, in my humble opinion, is ppl not taking us seriously no matter how we express ourselves

  129. I doubt that Archie is all that reliable of a narrator, what with his disinterest in solving the whys of his wife being burned out juxtaposed with his laser like focus on his neglected penis.

    I don’t think you can reasonably expect to have a good faith debate with someone when they are mocking you. I pointed this out to lolagirl, she stopped mocking me, and we were able to engage in a meaningful dialog without her having to compromise her views or opinions.

  130. Ouch! Mr Braly certainly seems to be copping some pretty fierce abuse: “an utter douchebag who positively oozes misogyny and a creepy pedo edge” and “the level of this guys assholishness is astonishing” were two I noted – the last from someone complaining that Braly’s article was “offensive and disgusting”. Anyone see anything wrong here?

    Actually I’m not a terrible fan of Braly’s article. You have to allow for it being light-hearted and you have to think he’s perhaps not the sharpest mind, or at least maybe not a great writer; you’d also have to say some of the things he says do jar a bit and he doesn’t always do mildly provocative that well.

    On the other hand I did think that here was someone trying to be honest, both about his own emotions and about how perhaps many men feel, or would feel if they found themselves in his situation.

    There was certainly no attempt to burnish his own image. He goes for a kind of biological determinism which is always going to be reductive, and rather crude, but it’s difficult to imagine that this represents the full gamut of his thoughts and feelings around extended breast feeding and his relationship with his wife. It’s worth saying though that,, if this placed anyone in a bad light it was surely Braly and other men, rather than, for example, his wife.

    You could describe this as self deprecation, presumably (and maybe not entirely successfully) for comic effect. But in refusing to portray himself in the best light, it is also rather admirable. Kicking someone in these circumstances looks at best pretty bad form. Also rather silly.

    The reaction therefore to what he wrote seems to me to have been quite disproportionate. But why has it been like this?

    I think because he said in effect, as many woman say, “this is how I feel about this, and I want my feelings to be taken seriously”.

    What is interesting is how threatened many women who identify themselves as feminists seem to be by this. The point of the abuse is of course is to bully and to shut him up.

    But it’s interesting too to read comments about how Braly should “get a grip” or go out get a job and support his family. It suggests that many feminists want to impose on men what is a very traditional role. Whether men want it or not.

    1. i believe i was the one who said his assholishness was astonishing—-something i wrote in the heat of anger right after reading his piece—-now that ive had some time to cool down i realize that its really not astonishing—-its pretty standard fare from the patriarchy—-and i think the outpouring of anger here is because most of us have had it up to here with this kind of crap

      my biggest problem was with his statement “women THINK their breasts belong to them”—um, no, they actually do belong to us, thank you, and if you want us to share, you could try actually treating us like human beings—you know with the right to say no—-or the right to say yes, as it suits US—-

      and thats the crux of it right there—-we are fighting for the recognition that our bodies are in fact our own—-something which the larger society has yet to recognize—-our bodies are still regarded as property for MENS USE—-and not the property of their rightful owners —–US!!!!!—–get it?

  131. @maggiemay

    Well if you think breastfeeding a five year old is weird, then you’re about half way there with Braly. He thinks that too. He also thinks it’s getting in the way of intimacy with his wife. Not unreasonably this is a problem for him. My guess is many women might feel similarly if something were getting in the way of intimacy with their partners.

    As for the ownership of breasts, on another discussion of Braly’s piece one woman wrote, amusingly I thought, that her breasts belonged to her and her partner together, but that if they separated she got custody of both of them. This seems to me rather a nice way to see things, but I’m not going to insist on it here.

    What I will say however is that if a relationship is to mean much there has to be some sense of sharing, and even some sense of mutual belonging?. As far as intimacy goes this entails both a negative imperative and also a positive commitment.

    Negatively it means not sharing ones body with someone else. If I shared my bits with someone else, my wife would be upset. Understandably. Belonging to someone (to me and my wife at least) means not doing that kind of thing. Of course in one sense my bits are mine and I can do want I want with them. But my commitment to my wife means I can’t. My wife has a claim to them.

    But being in a relationship also has a positive aspect. It means a commitment to the other, to their feelings and to their needs. Despite her slagging off of Braly, Jill Filipovic actually sees this and expresses it quite well when she says:

    “…I do think that in a long-term romantic/sexual relationship, ideally both people make a reasonable effort to meet their partner’s needs — including sexual needs. That doesn’t mean that one partner is obligated to have sex they don’t want, or that a woman’s breasts are shared property; it does mean that even if you have a child, your relationship with your partner needs care.”

    It’s telling however that Filiovic obviously feels she is going out on a limb saying this; her words above are prefaced by the following:

    “This is probably where I diverge a little bit from some feminist writers, but…”

    In other words she’s acknowledging is that some feminist writers don’t think that women (presumably women, though possibly men too) have any obligation to make a “reasonable effort to meet their partner’s needs”.

    What you write maggiemay rather suggests you may be in this camp, but perhaps I am wrong.

    At any rate it doesn’t seem like advice which, if followed, would make many people very happy.

    1. actually i do think that two ppl who have made a formal commitment to each other have a reasonable obligation to meet each others needs—its hard to be nuanced in a couple of paragraphs and i tend to dislike long-winded posts—so i try 2B as brief as possible

      another thing that bugged me about braly’s article was the sheer TMI-ness of it—-im kind of old school in some respects, and today’s tell-all culture makes me uncomfortable at times

  132. I get the TMI point – though being a Brit, I had to look the abbreviation up! Some of it was a bit yuk, and I’d say some bits came close to raising privacy concerns.

    Still we are talking about personal relationships here in a public forum, and personal experience has to be important feed-in to that. So it’s difficult area I think.

    The idea, captured in the slogan “the personal is political”, was (and I’m not really interested and I’m not intending to score a silly point here) something feminism gave life to. Gooses and ganders and all that.

    It seems to me the personal being political is actually quite an important insight, but also that to argue from one’s personal experience can be quite powerful.

    1. it takes a fingertip feel sometimes to know when enuf is enuf and when it crosses the line into TMI—-entertainment especially is a difficult area, as so much rides on personal taste——my taste in music for instance would no doubt be too

      fuerte

      for many of the readers here —–
      and braly is definitely not as fuerte as andrew the dice man clay was back in the day——

      that being said, i still think braly comes off as a giant toxic dick

  133. The idea, captured in the slogan “the personal is political”, was (and I’m not really interested and I’m not intending to score a silly point here) something feminism gave life to. Gooses and ganders and all that.

    It seems to me the personal being political is actually quite an important insight, but also that to argue from one’s personal experience can be quite powerful.

    You are completely and utterly mistaken about the meaning of that slogan. It was a response to New Left men who, when confronted with evidence of the sexism of their arrangements regarding things such as domestic labor and clerical labor with the women in their lives, said that treating those women in an unequal manner wasn’t a political issue: it was purely a personal arrangement, and that any individual woman who had a problem with the dynamic had a “personal,” rather than systemic, or political problem. It comes from an actual essay, which is easy to find on the internet with the magic of google. It does not mean “pay attention to my feeeeeeeelings about your boobs, which you only think are yours.”

    There is a long history of men claiming ownership over women’s bodies that continues into the present day, so yes, feminists tend to feel a bit threatened by a man claiming ownership over his wife’s breasts, no matter how charmingly he presents that claim.

  134. You have to allow for it being light-hearted

    Actually, I don’t have to allow for it being light-hearted, but that’s because I’m a feminist — you know, no sense of humor.

  135. The idea, captured in the slogan “the personal is political”, was (and I’m not really interested and I’m not intending to score a silly point here) something feminism gave life to. Gooses and ganders and all that.

    Not only did you misunderstand the quote, you can’t bloody pluralise “goose” right. But of course, feel free to come here and lecture about how we should feel like our bodies belong partially to our partners, just because they’re resentful, childish fuckwads in sexual competition with their own goddamn kids.

  136. actually i do think that two ppl who have made a formal commitment to each other have a reasonable obligation to meet each others needs

    Some people might like the occasional/fairly frequent obligatory fuck, but nothing turns me off more than the idea of my partner banging me out of obligation…. *Shudder*
    (But then I’d like to think I’m pretty enough to inspire lustful thoughts in my sexual partners. Otherwise I don’t see any reason to be in a relationship with someone who doesn’t or no longer desires me. Even when there is a formal commitment. )

    my biggest problem was with his statement “women THINK their breasts belong to them”—um, no, they actually do belong to us, thank you, and if you want us to share, you could try actually treating us like human beings—you know with the right to say no—-or the right to say yes, as it suits US—-

    ^ this.

  137. Two people have pulled me up on the meaning of personal is political, and if I’m wrong that’s fine and I’m happy to be corrected. I don’t see that that much hangs on it.

    I am a bit surprised however. A google search takes me to http://womenshistory.about.com/od/feminism/a/consciousness_raising.htm where I read:

    “Carol Hanisch’s essay explains the idea behind the phrase “the personal is political.” A common debate between “personal” and “political” questioned whether women’s consciousness-raising groups were a useful part of the political women’s movement. According to Hanisch, calling the groups “therapy” was a misnomer, as the groups were not intended to solve any women’s personal problems. Instead, consciousness-raising was a form of political action to elicit discussion about such topics as women’s relationships, their roles in marriage, and their feelings about childbearing.”

    I thought this was pretty much the kind of thing I was referring too: reflecting on one’s personal situation and using it as a springboard for political action and for societal change.

    No matter.

    Along the way I’m stumbling over straw-men (other people’s I think) and it seems copping a bit of abuse of my own.

    It seems to me the issue of ownership is either the crux of the issue or a complete red herring. The problem is people mean different things by it.

    Some people don’t want to feel possessed. Fair enough I entirely understand that. There is obviously a sense in which my wife’s breasts belong entirely to her, just as my bits belong to me. I’m not sure there’s anyone out there that would deny this. But those who feel this need not to be possessed most keenly often speak as if this is precisely what others are saying. They’re denying a strawman.

    But to others this looks a lot like something else. What they see and what they reject may also be a strawman. Because what they see looks like to them a withholding of intimacy, a making of intimacy too conditional, and an intimacy that is wholly at the discretion of one partner and on that partner’s terms. If you’re being lined up as the other partner, then this doesn’t look too nice, and it doesn’t really look like intimacy either.

    So they try construct something a bit more mutual, where partners have responsibilities to look to the other partner’s needs, and sometimes they use the language of possession to express this. And this of course sets off the possession-phobes again.

    Oh and I do know plural of goose. I just thought getting it wrong made the point better. But apologies if this ruffled any feathers among those unable to guess this.

  138. What is interesting is how threatened many women who identify themselves as feminists seem to be by this. The point of the abuse is of course is to bully and to shut him up.

    Well, you know how we girls are, we get so overemotional and can’t help but become abusive when you argue with us. Our overemotional lady brains just can’t handle the stress of it all…

    What a load of nonsense, Dunwich.

    Apparently you still hold onto the antiquated notion that when women disagree with men (which we are allowed to do, really, we no longer have to sit and take it and then dissolve into tears and then beg for your manly forgiveness) that disagreement must be done apologetically and nicely so that we don’t ruffle feathers. Nobody is trying to “shut down” Braly or his sexist train of a one man show.

    Calling him out for being a selfish, sexist, self-absorbed and sorry excuse for a husband and father?

    You bet your bottom dollar.

  139. @ Lolagirl

    I didn’t say anything about anyone being over-emotional. Didn’t suggest it. Wasn’t thinking anything of the sort.

    So any nonsense on that that score is something you’ve made up.

    I do think people can disagree, and still remain civil with each other. Nothing to do with gender. You may think that’s antiquated. I don’t. If you want to put shelling out abuse at the heart of your feminist identity, then that’s your choice.

    I’d add however ruffling a few feathers is fine. Indeed methinks perhaps I have ruffled yours.

  140. @Sarah I don’t understand. Unless Lolagirl is your sock-puppet.

    @Lolagirl I’d add a few comments on your judgement on Braly. You said he was “selfish, sexist, self-absorbed and sorry excuse for a husband and father”. In many ways this bear out my point.

    You’re suggesting he’s a bad husband and father, but why? I don’t see much evidence to support this; it seems to me you simply don’t like what he says. So far as it’s based on anything , it is on your judgement of his character. You just think he would make a bad father and a bad husband. But that’s just your speculation.

    You judgement on his character, of course, is that he’s selfish and self-absorbed. Who knows he may be, but again there’s not much evidence here. As for selfish, a selfish man might have had an affair; he tells us he hasn’t. And as for self-obsessed, you’d have to say his article isn’t really about him. He draws on his own experience, but he’s actually interested in something rather wider, and this is what the article is about. So I’m not sure either judgement stands up.

    But there’s a point to calling him selfish and self-absorbed. Braly’s “crime” is to speak about how he feels about something and to give a male perspective. What saying he’s selfish and self-absorbed does is to say that’d illegitimate. It’s to say men shouldn’t reflect (or speak about) how they feel.

    So the message to any man is that real men don’t do feelings or introspection; they get a grip. Those who do, let themselves and everyone one around them down, because they become bad fathers and husbands. To women it says they don’t have to listen to men, and the man who speaks in this way deserves no respect.

    It needs saying how deeply conservative this view of manhood is. And how far it is from the promise that feminism aspired to.

  141. You’re suggesting he’s a bad husband and father, but why? I don’t see much evidence to support this; it seems to me you simply don’t like what he says.

    Well, for starters, he belittles and insults his wife in both a nationally performed play and an article that was published by the NY Times. I think that deriding your spouse in such a public way counts as being a bad husband.

    You judgement on his character, of course, is that he’s selfish and self-absorbed. Who knows he may be, but again there’s not much evidence here. As for selfish, a selfish man might have had an affair; he tells us he hasn’t.

    Not doing a particular shitty thing doesn’t suddenly make him a great person. He doesn’t get cookies for meeting his obligation to not cheat on his spouse. That he didn’t cheat doesn’t somehow counteract that he did write a lot of really mean things about her and made his career a long series of “my wife is awful, seriously!” jokes.

    But there’s a point to calling him selfish and self-absorbed. Braly’s “crime” is to speak about how he feels about something and to give a male perspective. What saying he’s selfish and self-absorbed does is to say that’d illegitimate. It’s to say men shouldn’t reflect (or speak about) how they feel.

    No, his crime was being a shithead to his wife and talking about how seeing her breastfeed made him dry-heave. He could have talked about the same issues without dragging his wife through the mud and without erasing women’s sexual agency. Instead, he went for “breastfeeding is gross and my wife, she’s wacky, right?”

    So the message to any man is that real men don’t do feelings or introspection; they get a grip. Those who do, let themselves and everyone one around them down, because they become bad fathers and husbands. To women it says they don’t have to listen to men, and the man who speaks in this way deserves no respect.

    Whereas I would say that the message is “don’t be a shithead.”

  142. roymac–
    but if a man talks publicly about his wife (even in a super dickish way) he’s being sensative and sharing his feeeeeelings, and we should respect that.

    If a woman talks publicly about her husband in a super dickish way she’s a bitch and a bad wife, and really ought to stfu already and quit making a scene. Stupid bitter harpy.

    I wonder if Braly’s wife’s pregnancy made him dry heave and consider cheating, too? I mean, how dare she “share” her anatomy with their offspring like it was hers to do with as she pleased.

  143. @roymacIII

    So the claims are that he belittled his wife, derided her in a public way, and dragged her through the mud. We’re arguing about his article here, and I don’t see this.

    His article has 9 paragraphs. He mentions his wife in just two of them, in paragraphs 4 and 5. Neither paragraph is about his wife.

    Paragraph 4 is about his reaction to watching his wife feed their 5 year old son. Beyond the fact of her feeding and that it was in Central Park, there’s nothing about his wife.

    In paragraph 5 he explains his reaction a bit more. He feels conflicted. As a father he says he felt it impossible not to support her choice to breastfeed. As a husband however it troubled him; he found it rather revolting, and a bit of a turn off.

    That’s it.

    Now there have been not a few people here who’ve said that breastfeeding a 5 to 6 year old is “weird”. At the same time that they slag Braly off, many have judged it inappropriate. In doing so they make a judgement about the mother.

    You can say whether that judgement is harsh or otherwise. But it’s worth saying that Braly doesn’t make that judgement. So I don’t see much deriding of Braly’s wife, except perhaps in the comments here.

    Referring to his reaction however makes him apparently makes him a bad husband – also a toxic dick, jerk and degenerate attention whore.

    The point is your saying he shouldn’t do this. You’re trying to establish that to do so is in some way wrong. In fact to shut down what men can say.

  144. Having suggested Sarah and Lolagirl may be the same, one the sock-puppet of the other, I realise I’ve inadvertently used two identities here myself.

    “dunwich” is a name I use on CiF (where I came across JF’s piece) and sometimes elsewhere. “Adrian” is my real name. We’re the same.

    Apologies. No subterfuge intended.

  145. So the claims are that he belittled his wife, derided her in a public way, and dragged her through the mud. We’re arguing about his article here, and I don’t see this.

    Personally, I think that his larger body of work is part of the context, but even ignoring that, I still think that the article is shitty and that he’s a jerk.

    His article has 9 paragraphs. He mentions his wife in just two of them, in paragraphs 4 and 5. Neither paragraph is about his wife.

    Okay? He’s still a creepy jerk who talks about his wife and children like they’re farm animals, gripes about how women only think their breasts belong to them, and says that seeing his wife breastfeeding left him “dry-heaving — and bile is not an aphrodisiac.” He’s not just saying “this is something that was having a negative impact on our sex life because of my hang-ups.” Then he compares cheating on your spouse with breast feeding your child later than he would prefer.

    His point is certainly important in the context of his relationship–there’s something about their relationship and it’s not working, and it’s something that there are likely other people going through as well. It’s the way he chooses to address it.

    You can say whether that judgement is harsh or otherwise. But it’s worth saying that Braly doesn’t make that judgement. So I don’t see much deriding of Braly’s wife, except perhaps in the comments here.

    The whole article is based on the premise that breastfeeding a child at that age is weird and makes him “dry-heave”. That’s a pretty fucking strong reaction.

    Referring to his reaction however makes him apparently makes him a bad husband – also a toxic dick, jerk and degenerate attention whore.

    No, writing this article, plus a play, plus other articles, all of which are premised on “my wife is crazy and horrible and the mere thought of her breastfeeding our kid makes me sick to my stomach.”

    The point is your saying he shouldn’t do this. You’re trying to establish that to do so is in some way wrong. In fact to shut down what men can say.

    Yes, I am absolutely saying that he should not have handled this the way he did. I think that what he did is in some way wrong. I am not shutting down what men can say. He can say whatever the fuck he wants, but I can absolutely say that he sounds like an asshole for saying it the way he did.

    It’s entirely possible to have important things to say it but to do so in a way that makes you an asshole.

  146. Having suggested Sarah and Lolagirl may be the same, one the sock-puppet of the other, I realise I’ve inadvertently used two identities here myself.

    “dunwich” is a name I use on CiF (where I came across JF’s piece) and sometimes elsewhere. “Adrian” is my real name. We’re the same.

    Apologies. No subterfuge intended.

    Mayhaps you were projecting your own subterfuge onto myself and Sarah by accusing us/her of sockpuppeting? Dirty pool, Adrian/Dunwich. For the record, I don’t sockpuppet, life is far too short for such nonsense and I have far more important things to do with my time than keep so many balls in the air at once on some internet discussion site.

    Getting back to the main point. If you can’t see how Braly’s discussion of his wife and the very intimate details of their relationship in such a prominent manner via the New York Times is not abusive, they you just aren’t going to get it at all. Calling one’s spouse repulsive and carrying on about how she had the nerve to baby your baby and not you (when you are a grown effing man) is sexist and offensive. It just is. Doing so in the NYT is abusive, in no small part because Braly’s wife has no similar platform to defend herself. If you can’t see why saying such inflammatory things is a nasty thing to do to your spouse/ex-spouse in such a public forum, then I just don’t know what to say further to you.

  147. “…I still think his article is shitty and he’s a jerk”.

    Maybe you do. But you made three claims and when challenged have made no attempt to justify any of them. No attempt to show he belittled his wife. No attempt to show he derided her. No attempt to justify your assertion that he dragged her through the mud.

    Seems to me that’s a lot of allegations you can’t stand up.

    “It’s entirely possible to have important things to say it but to do so in a way that makes you an asshole”

    Seems to me too that, like Jill Filipovic, in the end you perhaps don’t really contest much of what he writes, but are going to slag him off anyway.

    I’ve already said I’m not a big fan of his article. But I think the way he has been treated is pretty appalling.

  148. @ Lolagirl

    Apologies for suggesting that you and Sarah might be the same.

    I’m now rather at a loss to know what Sarah’s “No” referred to, since evidently she wasn’t denying, as I had thought, that I had ruffled your feathers. But that doesn’t matter.

    With respect I find your cod psychology around projection and your “dirty pool” remark somewhat ridiculous. I owned up to my mistake as soon as I realised it. Where I come from you wouldn’t react as you have, but you have shown a certain abandon with insults, so perhaps I shouldn’t have been surprised.

    As for the rest of your post, I’m afraid, like roymacIII, you distort and misrepresent the article. I suggest you read it.

    Does Braly disclose “very intimate details” of their relationship? Not really. He discloses something that happened in Central Park. That’s a pretty public space. And he discusses his mixed feelings about that – both supportive of it and also repulsed by it.

    Does he call his spouse replusive? No. Even if repulsion had been his only emotion at that moment, that wouldn’t be the same as calling her repulsive.

    Does he want to be babied? No.

    Does his wife have no way to defend herself? Neither of us know whether the NYT might publish a response, but I can see no reason why they wouldn’t. But in any case, defend herself against what? What is he supposed to have accused her of?

    So read the article. It ain’t great, but it doesn’t say what you are saying it is saying.

  149. @ Lolagirl

    Apologies for suggesting that you and Sarah might be the same.

    I’m now rather at a loss to know what Sarah’s “No” referred to, since evidently she wasn’t denying, as I had thought, that I had ruffled your feathers. But that doesn’t matter.

    With respect I find your cod psychology around projection and your “dirty pool” remark somewhat ridiculous. I owned up to my mistake as soon as I realised it. Where I come from you wouldn’t react as you have, but you have shown a certain abandon with insults, so perhaps I shouldn’t have been surprised.

    As for the rest of your post, I’m afraid, like roymacIII, you distort and misrepresent the article. I suggest you read it.

    Does Braly disclose “very intimate details” of their relationship? Not really. He discloses something that happened in Central Park. That’s a pretty public space. And he discusses his mixed feelings about that – both supportive of it and also repulsed by it.

    Does he call his spouse replusive? No. Even if repulsion had been his only emotion at that moment, that wouldn’t be the same as calling her repulsive.

    Does he want to be babied? No.

    Does his wife have no way to defend herself? Neither of us know whether the NYT might publish a response, but I can see no reason why they wouldn’t. But in any case, defend herself against what? What is he supposed to have accused her of?

    So read the article. It ain’t great, but it doesn’t say what you are saying it is saying.

  150. Maybe you do. But you made three claims and when challenged have made no attempt to justify any of them. No attempt to show he belittled his wife. No attempt to show he derided her. No attempt to justify your assertion that he dragged her through the mud.

    Uh… what? I just wrote a fairly lengthy response to you pointing out exactly those things. I’ve, in fact, exactly quoted him, and pointed to the problematic parts of his screed. That you don’t happen to find those things problematic does not mean that I didn’t point them out. It means we disagree. They’re not the same thing.

    Seems to me that’s a lot of allegations you can’t stand up.

    *shrug*

    If you say so.
    I think that his body of work speaks volumes about his attitude towards his wife.

    Seems to me too that, like Jill Filipovic, in the end you perhaps don’t really contest much of what he writes, but are going to slag him off anyway.

    I’ve already said I’m not a big fan of his article. But I think the way he has been treated is pretty appalling.

    I think that the way he’s treating his wife is appalling, so I guess that’s fair. He’s the one who made his marriage public by writing about it in the NYT, and by writing a play about how weird his wife is. I’m slagging off on him because he’s an ass, for the many, many reasons listed in this thread. You don’t agree. Fine. I guess we have very different ideas of what is acceptable to say about your significant other on a public forum when you have a platform. I can’t imagine any circumstance where it’s acceptable to talk about my partner in the NYT in terms of her making me “dry heave” or writing play where one of the first jokes is that my partner is so weird that my sick sibling would rather die than be stuck with her.

    Ultimately, I’m not that bothered if you think we’re slagging off on him. He’s an asshole who made a career of slagging off on his wife in public, so if he gets it back from a nobody on the internet, I’m sure he’ll live.

  151. roymacIII

    Certainly you quoted bits you didn’t like. But as I pointed out previously they didn’t support your original allegations, and you made no attempt to try to connect them.

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