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Encouraging Delayed Sexual Activity Without Shaming

A few years back, the McGuinty Liberals in Ontario proposed a new sex ed curriculum for the province, one that would start in Grade One.

Naturally, people lost their shit, because Grade One students couldn’t possibly be taught about … (whisper it with me now).. sex.. in a nuanced and age-appropriate manner. Around me I saw parents react as though they were going to be showing Debbie Does Dallas to six-year-olds.

However, the curriculum outline was much more well thought out than that. The Grade One curriculum would introduce basic anatomy including body parts and their proper names. Grade Three would introduce homosexuality – as in, ‘Hey. This is a thing that exists.’ and ‘Some kids have two mommies or two daddies’. Grade Five would cover reproduction and introduce masturbation. Grade Seven and Eight classes might touch on Oral and Anal sex.

The original articles I cited when I wrote about this back in 2010 are gone, but I did find a link to the proposed curriculum.

Click Here (.pdf)

At the time I felt like this kind of curriculum made a lot of sense and was a nice step from the last curriculum update, which had been in 1997. It didn’t operate in a strictly heterosexist, heteronormative paradigm, introducing kids to concepts such as homosexuality and transgenderism on a level appropriate to kids. Granted, how well these concepts would have been communicated by teachers we’ll never know, as the curriculum was abandoned after less than three days under pressure from conservative groups that were concerned with pre-teens ‘getting lessons in anal sex’.

One of the phrases that jumped out at me in reading about this was, as opposed to abstinence as taught by many sex education curricula, the idea of ‘delayed sexual activity’. It seems to put across the idea that sex is going to happen, but let’s just try and put it off a bit, until you’re good and ready.

I have a confession to make. As a parent, the idea of my kids as sexual beings, scares the beejeebus out of me. It’s coming though, I know it. My oldest one, at eleven, has discovered ‘boys’ and while she enjoys the attention, she thankfully still makes faces at the thought of anything beyond hand-holding.

It’s coming though. I’d like to be able to put it off as long as possible.

I talk with my kids a lot, and I’m pretty candid with them. I’ve had numerous puberty talks and we’ve had numerous ‘Where babies come from?’ talks and a few ‘How do babies get there?’ talks and at least one ‘Dear God, how you NOT get babies there?’ talk. I’ve talked to them about consent and about how no one is allowed to touch them without their permission. I’ve talked about secrets and how if anyone tells them to keep a secret from me or their dad that they should tell us immediately, even if it does ruin a few surprise parties. I’ve talked to them about masturbation and how it’s totally cool and okay, just not in the living room in front of company.

I wish I could find a way to just say ‘Please, for your mother’s sake don’t do it.’ without making them feel like sex is dirty or shameful. Because I don’t fear them having sex so much as facing the issues that sometimes go with it. Coercion. I don’t necessarily expect them to buy into the idea ‘your first time should be special, and full of feeeeelings’.

But your first time, if at all possible, should be on your own terms. It should be safe. Without fear. Because you’re there and you’re ready and you really want this. I don’t want them to feel coerced, or unsafe, or unable to walk away.

I fear unplanned pregnancy. I can have all the birth control talks with them I want, but that doesn’t rule out the possibility that most, namely hormonal-based methods may not even be an option due to family history. I fear them having to face an unplanned pregnancy. None of the options are pleasant. Raising a child in your teens, abortion, adoption – none of these are wrong choices, but none of them seem like particularly pleasant choices.

I don’t want them to delay their sexual lives out of some kind of moral obligation or some arbitrary idea of purity. It’s a protectiveness thing I suppose. I just want their lives to stay… uncomplicated, or as uncomplicated as possible, until they are both fully ready to take that kind of responsibility on.

Is it possible to encourage kids to wait to have sex (whatever ‘sex’ may entail – not referring strictly to PIV) without being shame-y about it?

(I just want to mention that this probably comes across as fairly heteronormative in assuming that both kids will be in heterosexual relationships. I’m not taking it for granted, I’ve actually given great consideration to the possibility that my kids could fall anywhere on the spectrum and I’d be totally supportive.)


96 thoughts on Encouraging Delayed Sexual Activity Without Shaming

  1. As someone who routinely has what are probably TMI-feeling talks with her stepkid and her wife….I feel your pain. What we tend to do is mostly talk to each other about these issues, when it comes up (and we follow assorted social justice-type blogs so it comes up a lot) in front of her without really skimping on details or background. It takes away some of the preachiness and feels more like “hey look at this dipfuck’s dipfuckitude, let me tell you why they’re a dipfuck” discussion on current events that occasionally sidetracks to “and how to do this right”. >_> Seems like it’d be less embarrassing for all concerned. It certainly feels that way to me.

  2. As someone who routinely has what are probably TMI-feeling talks with her stepkid and her wife….I feel your pain. What we tend to do is mostly talk to each other about these issues, when it comes up (and we follow assorted social justice-type blogs so it comes up a lot) in front of her without really skimping on details or background. It takes away some of the preachiness and feels more like “hey look at this dipfuck’s dipfuckitude, let me tell you why they’re a dipfuck” discussion on current events that occasionally sidetracks to “and how to do this right”. >_> Seems like it’d be less embarrassing for all concerned. It certainly feels that way to me. We tend not to bring up delaying sex as much as having sex when Good And Ready, and forfuckssake SAFELY. It seems a better bet, all things considered.

  3. having sex when Good And Ready, and forfuckssake SAFELY

    This was kind of the way my parents broached it with me, along with some of the special-feelingsy stuff as well.

  4. I can’t put my hand on any studies to back this up, but my anecdotal experience suggests to me that kids who get full sex ed early enough are actually far more likely to delay sexual activity than other kids, and more likely to take measures to protect themselves from STDs. Somebody once told me that studies found the same thing. Does anybody else have any stats on this?

  5. EG, the nyclu legislative memo at http://www.nyclu.org/content/legislative-memo-comprehensive-sex-education says:

    Numerous studies demonstrate that comprehensive sex education — health programs that are medically accurate, age-appropriate, and include information about contraception in addition to abstinence — is the most effective way to help young people postpone intercourse and reduce their number of sexual partners. Comprehensive sex education also helps to increase the use of condoms and other forms of contraception among young people who are sexually active.

    Unfortunately, it contains no citations, but I had certainly heard of the existence of such studies, and it makes perfect sense to me.

  6. I think it is possible to have a discussion which encourages kids to approach sex responsibility without shaming, but it is a very delicate balancing act, indeed. In a past life, I was a sex/health educator for girls and it was very hard not to tread into shame-land, especially because so many of them brought in shame related perspectives from their families and homes.

    Because there is so much discomfort with the idea of kids as sexual beings, it’s become a cultural knee jerk reaction to talk about all the HORRIBLE CONSEQUENCES of sex when a young person asks about it. And some parents quite literally choose shaming as an attempt at intentional sex deterring.

    But many of us enjoy and partake in sex, so it’s all around dishonest take on the whole thing. I feel that by even asking these questions and approaching it with that concern in mind, you’ll be better able to talk with your kids honestly, openly, and appropriately than most.

  7. I let my son figure out where babies come from by being around pregnant aunties and watching “Look Who’s Talking” (TV edited). It wasn’t really intentional, those things just came up before him asking did….
    (no mommy of the year awards here)

  8. My mother was a teenage single mother, as were most of my aunts. She was very candid with me about sex, about sex feeling good, about sex being with people you loved, or people you liked (but ALWAYS someone you trusted.

    And she was very frank about other things, too. She told me I could do whatever I wanted, but I’d end up living either her life or my aunt’s life. She said that about drugs and smoking as well. Never in a shameful way, but a matter-of-fact way: if you have sex at sixteen, you could be thirty-eight and be a grandmother. If you start smoking at sixteen, you could end up having pneumonia twice a year and losing your beautiful singing voice. And it was never something that appealed to me.

  9. I’m really glad you posted this. I’m closer to being a kid than I am to having one, but it’s a problem I’ve thought a lot about. I knew when I was ready for sex, but how do you explain that moment to your kids? And how do you talk about sex in a way which is informative, healthy, non-shaming, and yet at the same time explaining that sex should never happen under pressure?

    I think part of the answer comes in framing sex as something that is completely normal and not forbidden. Until I was in college, my parents always told me that they knew I’d find a way to have sex if I wanted to, and they didn’t mind as long as I was safe. At the same time, they weren’t going to just let the guy sleep over in my room, a boundary which I think was wise.

    We had lots of safe sex talks and my mom always made it very clear that she thought birth control was a good idea for me regardless of whether I was sexually active at the moment I got it. So when I started thinking about sex, it was easy for me to ask her to come with me to the doctor.

    Basically, my parents always just assumed that I would have sex before marriage. They actually told us that *not* having sex before marriage was foolish. They also made sure we understood that there could be consequences to having unprotected sex and offered repeatedly to provide birth control for us no questions asked. (In one particularly memorable rant, my dad told us he’d put a bowl of condoms on the kitchen counter dorm-style).

    I think they did a pretty good job.

  10. I agree that the best general way to talk about sex to your kids is to simply be as candid as possible and avoid shaming. However, although coming up with a few guidelines (like not shaming and being candid) is important, I think that formulating specific ways to teach children largely depends on the children in question. Most parents probably understand this, but it’s something that people tend to forget easily. It’s like how some parents forget that their child is not necessarily capable of becoming a prodigy just because the kid next door of the same age is a prodigy.

    Now, that isn’t to say that I believe sex education is pointless – far from it. If anything, my view merely emphasizes the involvement parents should have in these matters regardless of the existence of sex education.

  11. Also, there’s another thing I think is very important for talking to kids about sex: establishing good parent-child trust in the first place. While this should be done anyway without regards to teaching kids about sex, it’s pretty much a prerequisite for doing this in particular.

    Be that person whom that kid will approach when they do something they’re unsure about, they’re confused about something related to sex, etc. Demonstrate trust, love, and empathy and kids will most likely reciprocate, which means that they will be more comfortable about talking to you about sex and therefore more comfortable about sexuality in general. Just some thoughts – I’m not sure if they’re obvious, flawed, or whatever, but I think they make sense.

  12. It’s coming though. I’d like to be able to put it off as long as possible.

    I wonder what do you mean by that, Andie.

  13. Sex may not be shameful, but it is dirty. Think about why literal dirt is bad, and used as a metaphor for other bad things. It’s because it can contain dangerous microbes that can make people sick. The same with sex, it involves exposure to human body fluids which would need elaborate safety precautions and warning labels when encountered in the workplace. The abstinence-education bit with the drinking glass passed around is actually appropriate. You’d advise your teenage child not to drink out of a communal glass, right? So why not advise them not to have sex? If there’s no moral component to sex, why is it special enough to ignore normal prudence?

  14. You’d advise your teenage child not to drink out of a communal glass, right? So why not advise them not to have sex?

    I wouldn’t advise them not to share a soda with a friend, though. And I wouldn’t advise them never to drink a glass of water, even if they were thirsty.

    Why are you comparing a kid’s boyfriend/girlfriend to a glass of water that’s been passed around a classroom?

  15. Sex doesn’t have to be dirty. Nor does it have to involve any sort of dangerous exposure to body fluids.

    I’ve also drunk from a communal cup, as part of a Japanese Tea Ceremony.

  16. Why are you comparing a kid’s boyfriend/girlfriend to a glass of water that’s been passed around a classroom?

    It is exaggerating a little to compare them to a glass passed around the whole class. But I suspect that in those abstinence classes, even one person drinking from the glass puts the others off. And the official medical advice is not to share drinks at all – the risk of hepatitis and meningitis makes it too dangerous. So if the mouth is that dangerous, what makes the genitals any safer?

  17. It’s not exaggerating a little; it’s insulting an actual human being.

    The person my child will be having sex with is not going to be chosen at random by a teacher; the person my child will be having sex with is somebody for whom they feel desire and most likely will feel affection for. Adults prioritize those feelings above absolute germ control all the time; why wouldn’t kids?

    The official medical advice is unrealistic. People do share drinks all the time, and even kiss, without developing horrible diseases. And kids are not stupid–they’ve noticed this. Telling them that having sex–or kissing, which is the actual cognate to sharing a glass of water–will lead to disease will only make them write off every single thing you say as unrealistic and pointless.

  18. Just tell them what you said here? Assuming your kids see you as rational (and will therefore listen), explaining your reasons will allow them to make their own reason based decisions.

  19. If I have kids I would just want timely lessons. All my sex ED, while useful, was about 3 years too late. 13? Here’s how to use a tampon. 16-17? Here’s what a condom looks like, how birth control works, how to tell if you’re in an abusive relationship, and a talk about homosexuality and anal that almost gets the PE teacher fired (but he still gives the same lecture every year, and every year almost gets fired.) All good, if heteronormative, classes. All about 3 years after I dealt with the shit they were telling me about.

  20. Just tell them the truth. Sex can be complicated and can complicate life. There are risks to being sexually active, but there are also precautions one can take to lower those risks.

    They don’t have to love the person they’re with, but they should have some level of trust.

    It’s weird, I’m trying to go through my head and think of the hypothetical things I would say to my hypothetical children. My parents lucked out with me… I’m more asexual than anything. Their talks always made me feel uncomfortable because some of the things they told me I knew were wrong and other things were just uncomfortable to have in the air around your parents.

    Hell, my mother was convinced that I was sexually active before I actually way and had me on the pill the second the thought entered her mind. I was terrified of getting pregnant though and still made the boyfriend use a condom when we did eventually start having sex.

    I think just being honest is good… even if it makes them and you uncomfortable. 😀

  21. All about 3 years after I dealt with the shit they were telling me about.

    This is why I was disappointed when they abandoned the new curriculum. I feel like, although on its face, it seems shocking to start so young, considering the misinformation kids are exposed to through the media, it’s better to start damage control as early as possible.

    Some parents talk to their kids open and honestly, which I feel should be the default, but at some point my kids may enter that “Mom is stupid and doesn’t know what she’s talking about” phase and become more heavily influenced by their peers… Peers who may have only formed their knowledge through some problematic mass media.

  22. I let my son figure out where babies come from by being around pregnant aunties and watching “Look Who’s Talking” (TV edited). It wasn’t really intentional, those things just came up before him asking did….
    (no mommy of the year awards here)

    Heh, I had both my girls by C-section, so when they were really young (like 3 and 5) they asked about how they came out of my belly and I told them that I went to the hospital, the doctor put me to sleep, and when I woke up there was a big scar and a baby. I was outed by the Rugrats movie when they asked “Mommy, why is Mrs. Pickles screaming?”

  23. Karak @ 9

    Early pregnancy runs in my family as well. We are of the type, not to exaggerate too much, to get pregnant if someone looks at us the wrong way. Coupled with potentially being unable to use hormonal methods of birth control, early pregnancy in this case isn’t so much a scare tactic, it’s a simple fact – there’s a ridiculously high probability. Your mom sounds like a smart lady.

  24. You’d advise your teenage child not to drink out of a communal glass, right?

    um… no? people drink out of communal glasses all the time without getting diseases. hell people even share water bottles with those caps that go up and down. I bet those are even less hygienic. Because people prefer convenience over the small chance of getting some disease. “Yeah I’d love to try that drink but i need my own separate glass”… I don’t think.

    same with kissing and/or sex. its fun and important for a lot of people, more important than the risk of germs or STDs. and furthermore with proper sex education, not the kind yr advocating, if someones unlucky enough to get an STD they will recognize the symptoms and get it treated.

  25. I wish I could find a way to just say ‘Please, for your mother’s sake don’t do it.’ without making them feel like sex is dirty or shameful

    This actually kind of bothers me. Even if you can successfully remove shame from the equation (which I don’t think you can) something about “don’t have sex FOR ME” really icks me out.

    I am also a little unsure of “I’d like to be able to put it [sexual activity] off as long as possible.” I’m assuming there is some hyberbole here (I don’t actually think you would have a problem with say, your 40-year-old kid having sex) but…well, driving in a car is dangerous, but as a society we’ve decided that kids are mature enough for that sometime in their mid to late teens. Certain sports can be fairly dangerous, and we let kids do that from a young age. So yeah, of course you want your kids to be mature enough to make smart choices about their health and safety, both physical and emotional. But if one of your children has the maturity at 16, right around what is (at least in my country) the legal driving age…that’s okay, right?

    You remind me a lot of my mother. My mother who really wants to be the progressive-teach-your-kids-about-birth-control, you-can-always-talk-to-me parent. But when it came to me actually going up to her (at about 16) and asking her to help me make a doctor’s appointment to talk about birth control, she sounded a whole lot like you do in the post above. She said of course, and promptly found our doctor’s phone number and our insurance information for me. But her whole tone and attitude changed to “please hold out as long as you can, I know it’s hard.” And two things: 1) It didn’t matter. I had no desire to wait any longer than it took me to get on the pill. My mother’s perspective was so alien to my own, it really didn’t make an impact. 2) It didn’t feel safe to talk about sex with my mom anymore. Sex had suddenly become dirty, something I had to hide at all costs – despite the fact that I knew that she knew I was doing it.

    So look, I’m not a parent. I can’t say that I really truly understand where you are coming from, because I’ve never had kids of my own to raise and protect. Even if I can’t really sympathize though, I understand that you really want them to be safe and healthy and make smart choices regarding potentially dangerous activities.

    But I think that the idea of “delayed sexual activity” does really easily fall into shaming language. And I think that if delaying your kids’ sexual activity as long as possible is your #1 priority, you are on the fast track to alienating them once they hit that age.

    I really like the sex ed curriculum you posted. I think a better goal is to give them all the information they need by an age that it becomes relevant–information not just about physiology and contraception, but about healthy relationships, negotiating boundaries, and being assertive in the face of pressure. If they can do all that, AND they feel totally comfortable coming to you if they have concerns or problems…I think that’s the best you can ask for. I think they’re in a position to “delay” until they decide delaying isn’t for them anymore – until they feel safe and comfortable negotiating their sexual relationships and are mature enough to do it all safely. Because that’s really the goal of “delaying sexual activity,” right? Delaying until certain skills are developed, and until a certain level of maturity is reached. Not delaying just for the sake of delaying.

  26. LaPlace Demon –

    I appreciate your comments and yeah, in retrospect, it does sound shitty, because it’s not about me. I recognize that. And you’re right, it does sound shamey on certain levels.

    I guess this is why I say “I wish”.. because realistically I can’t, because it’s not about me. It’s about their choices.

    I also appreciate sharing your perspective on this, because I hadn’t thought of how that would actually sound coming out of my mouth, even in a joking manner.

    Okay Folks, I’m back at work with much to catch up on (still feeling like hell though) so I’m going to try and stay on top of comment moderation, but I can’t guarantee I’ll be able to respond to comments right away.

    FWIW, I’m enjoying the discussion coming out of this thread so far.

  27. What I always imagine telling my niece someday:
    The thing with sex is that it can be bad sex. Which is fine. But you want to be doing it with someone who is emotionally mature enough to handle that. Someone who won’t blame you, or publicly shame you, or get mad. And you have to be that way too.
    And, at first anyway, you shouldn’t do it unless both of you are horny.

    And then I will give her a link to Scarleteen, and shut up.

    This conversation will never happen, but I hope something like it does happen with her mom and/or dad.

  28. I think it might be helpful to conclude that you don’t *have* to talk about personal sexual experiences with your children, either yours or theirs, if your own sense of privacy or whatever else makes it very uncomfortable for you.

    I mean, if your child was of the temperament and personality that they didn’t want to hear or share such private stories, you presumably would be ok with that and change your expectations? If it is you who can’t really handle that level of sharing, I think it would be fine if you just talk more in general, point your kids to various resources such as perhaps Scarletteen, have just a box of condoms in the hall closet you promise never to count, or whatever (for them OR any of their friends who might not have other access! Especially in a small town, a kid might not trust the discretion of a checkout clerk…).

    I think if you are honest about your kid that you, just can’t handle a personal private story, I think that will be ok, and will be better than if you TRY to but end up giving the impression that, in a general sense rather than a personal sense, such things aren’t fit for discussion.

  29. Passing along my mother’s sex ed advice: “If you have a baby, you will not have a decent night’s sleep until it’s 21.” Trotting this out after an all-nighter prior to finals willget you respect.
    Chattanooga, TN recently had a mother protest HIV education in earlier grades. People who have easy lives are incapable of comprehending that children in addict households run a serious risk of hepatitis and/or HIV from impromptu needlestick accidents, not to mention drinking from that glass, and more addict households are Out There than Mrs. Ostrich or her cohorts will ever suspect. Telling teens to be careful who they kiss is a very, very good idea.

  30. Hope you feel better.

    It is really hard to have discussions like this with your own kids, but it is one of the single greatest responsibilities we have as parents. It is absolutely possible to encourage kids to wait without interjecting shame. Remember why you want them to wait. I suspect that for many folks reading this, it isn’t because you believe sex is a dirty, sinful thing that you should save for someone you really, really love and are married to. It is because you want your children to be emotionally mature enough to handle this type of relationship and you want them to protect themselves from STDs and unwanted pregnancy. When you frame the discussion around what you want to accomplish, it is a little easier to not sound so preachy.

    I know this probably doesn’t put me in running for mother-of-the-year, but in addition to the nuts-and-bolts conversations (which I started at about age six, BTW) I’ve got a lot of mileage out of selectively allowing my kids to view TV and movies that many parents would object to as long as I’m watching it with them and discussing what they’re seeing. (We’re talking sit-coms on evening networks, not pay channels.) We talk about scenarios as they arise and their implications. “She had sex with someone because she was drinking. I know everyone is laughing, but if this were real, how do you think she would be feeling right now? What might have happened to her?” “Yes, that is lovely, but did you know that gay men can do other things besides designing wedding gowns.” This gets the conversations started and brings up topics I might not otherwise think to address. It also give me a chance to talk about some of the Hollywood nonsense.

    I also am sure to point out real-life parallels to these discussions. My daughter has a friend whose mother was 16 when she was born. We had a great discussion on the challenges her friend and her mother face because she was so young and how much easier many things are for us because I didn’t have children until I was done with school and established at work. I didn’t threaten her with the potential consequences, but stated what happened and how and left it to her to draw her own conclusions about whether it should have been prevented and if so, how best to accomplish that. I’m not telling her what to do, but I am giving her all the information she needs to make the best decisions for herself.

  31. Amazing discussion, glad I read it.

    Here’s what worked for my family. Discuss the biology of it. Biology is messy, potentially dangerous, hard to describe, and clinical. Sound familiar? Mom only applied shame from 2 angles – If I didn’t treat her with respect she would never forgive me, and if I am old enough to make a baby I am old enough to feed it too. We found a way to make it work.

    As for references, try to find the durex biannual reports. There is some correlation, in these and similar reports, between median age of first sexual experience and educational tactic.

    http://www.durexnetwork.org/SiteCollectionDocuments/The%20Face%20of%20Global%20Sex%202010.pdf

  32. Almost forgot – Homosexual discussions would be a lot different in my house as I have a couple of cousins and some really great friends who are gay and there is no way in hell (not that I would ever want there to be) they would not be involved in my potential future children’s lives from day 1. So yea the idea of “you have two mommies” would be covered before they were out of diapers – AS IT DAMN WELL SHOULD BE FOR EVERYONE.

  33. I got the whole “Miracle of Life” pop-up book when I was maybe five. (Move the tab to make the sperm fertilize the egg… Now turn the wheel to watch the embryo develop…) I got all the accurate information about birth control. I got the talk about doing it for the right reasons, not being pressured into it, and “it’s better to wait, but if you don’t, be safe” (or, from my dad, the classic, “Be good. If you can’t be good, be careful. If you can’t be careful, name it after me”).

    In the end, it came down to, “If I don’t do this for my boyfriend, he’ll go looking for it elsewhere”–which is ridiculous, I knew better. It was included in The Talk. If any of my friends had come to me and said she was afraid her boyfriend would leave her if she didn’t, I’d have advised against it. But then I fell for it. I was 19 at the time, which is hardly too young for a girl to have sex, and I was on the Pill. But had it not been for “if I don’t do this, he’ll leave me,” I don’t think I would have become sexually active when I did. I, personally, wasn’t ready yet. And I don’t know how to really express that to a young woman.

  34. Here’s one conversation I had with my (now 10-year-old) son about sex (it’s on my personal blog, not my political one, but maybe I should copy it over).

    hi I read your link and I have a question. in the conversation you say “So, if you’re not ready to be a daddy, you shouldn’t be having sex with a girl.” do you really believe this to be so? I think quite a lot of people having sex are not ready and do not want to be parents. I don’t want to be a mother, but I still have sex. do you think people should only have sex if they want to conceive a child?

  35. as an ammendenum to my last comment — some people are not suitable to be a parent and probably never will be (in my case for instance due to mental disability). should they not have sex?

  36. The abstinence-education bit with the drinking glass passed around is actually appropriate.

    But I suspect that in those abstinence classes, even one person drinking from the glass puts the others off.

    No one will want you anymore if you’re not a virgin. (At least not inside a classroom which teaches abstinence?)

    Are you trying to warn people to remain pure and virginal? Or are you trying to point out the dangers of slut-shaming abstinence classes?

  37. It sounds like you’re still hung up about “what if something bad happens” scenario.

    Not that I’ve experienced those choices, but I think we need to keep in mind that those choices “suck” no matter what age your kid is. An abortion at 16 or 18 is still gonna “suck” at 29–although maybe the difference is your kid is not going to tell you about it.

    I think you need to examine YOUR feelings about these scenarios and talk with your kids about them. Either way, it sounds like you have opened the lines of communication and you will be there for your kids no matter what happens–that’s a plus in my book! 🙂

  38. with 4 teens (2b,2g) in the house we kept the equivalent of a costco sized box of condoms in the bathroom closet. the rule was if you were taking the second to last set/sleeve from the box, the box got put on the counter so I knew it needed replacing. no questions, no asking who used them etc. Any discussions were frank and open, they all knew that even if we didn’t know the answer, we’d help them find appropriate resources or people to help them. So far, this all seems to have worked, no unplanned pregnancies, and they all seem to have healthy attitudes towards life, relationships and sex.

  39. My mom gave me a great talk about homosexuality when I was about 3 or 4:

    ME: Mom, where is (our neighbor’s) wife?
    MOM: He doesn’t have a wife, he’s gay. He dates men. That man he’s with now is his boyfriend.
    ME: Oh. Okay.

    Done.

  40. My mom was a nurse. She gave me a pretty accurate “where do babies come from” book when I was four. There was also a cartoon video, possibly drawn by the same person, discussing the physical differences between (cis)men and women, and portraying the reproductive process. Yes, there was a short, tasteful scene of conception. I wish I could find this video; I remember it being quite honest and effective. When I was twelve or so, Mom left a copy of “Boys and Sex” on my bookshelf. One gag birthday gift in my early teenage years was a single condom.

    Dad’s contribution to my sexual education was much shorter and hilarious.

    My middle school held what they called a “health day” for the eighth-graders. It was end-to-end sex ed, any dumb question invited and answered. There was a condom use demonstration, diagrams of the reproductive organs, the whole story – even mentions that not having sex is a perfectly viable choice.

    For small-town Ontario, I seem to have been incredibly lucky.

  41. I know this probably doesn’t put me in running for mother-of-the-year, but in addition to the nuts-and-bolts conversations (which I started at about age six, BTW) I’ve got a lot of mileage out of selectively allowing my kids to view TV and movies that many parents would object to as long as I’m watching it with them and discussing what they’re seeing. (We’re talking sit-coms on evening networks, not pay channels.) We talk about scenarios as they arise and their implications.

    This gets the conversations started and brings up topics I might not otherwise think to address. It also give me a chance to talk about some of the Hollywood nonsense.

    I’m not a parent myself, but I think this is a great idea. It’s one thing to discuss sex with your kids in an appropriate manner; it’s another thing to not only do that, but also try to anticipate the cultural bullshit that enters the minds of a lot of kids. Of course, it’s impossible to ensure that your kids never internalize cultural bullshit on any level, but doing what you’ve suggested will make it easier for your kids to judge cultural messages for themselves in addition to learning the flaws of their culture.

  42. Incidentally, the reactionaries are still getting mileage out of that proposed curriculum. A horribly offensive ad ran in some right-wing papers during the last provincial election campaign showing a picture of a little girl, text above reading “I’m a girl! Don’t confuse me by telling me otherwise!”, followed by contextless (if not fabricated) quotes, LGBT-baiting, the whole mess. The bigots struck again when the legislature passed a bill requiring the publicly-funded Catholic schools to allow students to create gay-straight alliances and name them as such, among other anti-bullying measures. Clerics and parents claimed this was somehow “bullying” them. I guess protecting students’ freedom of expression and belief is now oppressive.

  43. Not that I’ve experienced those choices, but I think we need to keep in mind that those choices “suck” no matter what age your kid is. An abortion at 16 or 18 is still gonna “suck” at 29–although maybe the difference is your kid is not going to tell you about it.

    An unplanned pregnancy is going to be incredibly difficult to deal with at any age, sure, but I feel reasonably confident saying that it would be much more difficult as a teenager. At 29, you’ve been out in the world for a while – you probably have friends who have had kids, you probably have a fuller understanding of sex and the dynamics of sexual relationships, and you are probably financially independent. You have none of that knowledge or experience at 16.

    Talking about sex and making sure your child understands the options in the event of an unplanned pregnancy really is so important, because as a parent you’re one of the biggest sources of both financial support and information in your child’s life. That might not be the case when the kid is out of their teens.

    (Note – I do understand that not all teenagers have the luxury of parents who support them financially, emotionally, or in other ways. I’m making those assumptions because this discussion is full of people who want to be/are good parents.)

  44. @auditorydamage – we need a poster campaign with “I’m A girl, don’t try telling me otherwise” captioned on a photo of Natalie Reed or similar.

  45. @Andie:

    Yeah, we also have issues with early pregnancy and getting pregnant despite any kind of birth control. My grandma had six kids, and the first five were in an 8 year period.

    If you want to scare your kids off sex, don’t point to fake boogeymen–point to real people in their lives. I wasn’t scared of sex, but I was damn scared of babies, so when I *did* finally go for it, I actually sat down and forced my boyfriend to have the baby talk with me. I’ve seen too many women have men walk out on them, and I got those details hammered. OUT. Not very sexy, but very necessary.

    That’s definitely a part of sex ed that needs to be added–don’t just talk to your partner about just sex, talk to them about what they’re going to do if you’re pregnant.

  46. An unplanned pregnancy is going to be incredibly difficult to deal with at any age, sure, but I feel reasonably confident saying that it would be much more difficult as a teenager.

    I don’t think it would suck any less for me to have one now (almost 10 years later) than it did when I was 18. But everyone’s different, and the circumstances surrounding that decision will be different for every person, and every time.
    I think it’d actually be harder for me now, since I don’t want more kids, but since I already have one child it doesn’t seem like I could “justify” not having another.

    (“justify” to society or a partner who really wanted kids… of course I feel my desire not to have more kids is valid, but not everyone would agree with me there. At least as a teen most (non-anti-abortion) people think having an abortion is understandable, since “zomg, teen pregnancy = worst thing ever!!!”)

  47. A horribly offensive ad ran in some right-wing papers during the last provincial election campaign showing a picture of a little girl, text above reading “I’m a girl! Don’t confuse me by telling me otherwise!”, followed by contextless (if not fabricated) quotes, LGBT-baiting, the whole mess.

    See, I…just don’t get this. People routinely mistook me for a boy as a child, because I had short hair and wore pants, but I wasn’t ever terribly confused by it. Well, I was confused they misgendered me, not confused about my own gender. And this was at 4,5,6. I don’t think anyone cis is going to get MORE confused about their gender when older, rather than less.

    Now, today, I still identify as female, with a generally invisible “…but not always?” at the end of it (dunno what that makes me, tbh) that I don’t usually disclose, even in safe spaces. But someone marching up to me and saying “You COULD be a boy” would just get me to go “well, sure, I could. I’m not, though.”

    Got to wonder how terrified these people who panic over even such a mild statement as “trans people exist” are. I think they’re shits, but I feel bad for them, too.

  48. People routinely mistook me for a boy as a child, because I had short hair and wore pants, but I wasn’t ever terribly confused by it. Well, I was confused they misgendered me, not confused about my own gender.

    My son is mistaken for a girl all the time (long hair, long eyelashes). He has pretty much the same response you did. I think the best time was when a woman pointed him out as “that girl scout” when he was in his boy scout uniform.

  49. Incidentally, the reactionaries are still getting mileage out of that proposed curriculum. A horribly offensive ad ran in some right-wing papers during the last provincial election campaign showing a picture of a little girl, text above reading “I’m a girl! Don’t confuse me by telling me otherwise!”, followed by contextless (if not fabricated) quotes, LGBT-baiting, the whole mess.

    Oh my god, i forgot all about that! That was horrible!

    I agree with macavity that kids who aren’t already confused won’t be made more confused by discussing gender identity.

  50. The warnings about teen pregnancy/young pregnancies are important because kids should obviously be well aware of how having a child would change their lives. However, I don’t think using other people as cautionary tales is okay.

    My mom was 19 when she got pregnant with me, and married my dad a week before she turned 20. I know this is not the same as being in high school and getting pregnant, but she was still very young. Things were financially difficult for my parents in a way that they might not have been if they didn’t have two young children while they were both in their twenties. However, I also got to know all but one of my great-grandparents. On the other hand, my best friend’s dad was older than my grandmother. I am glad I got to have a big family even though it meant that we were less financially secure.

  51. People routinely mistook me for a boy as a child, because I had short hair and wore pants, but I wasn’t ever terribly confused by it. Well, I was confused they misgendered me, not confused about my own gender.

    It happened to me, too, because I had short hair and wore overalls, and I wasn’t ever confused–I was always indignant!

    Seriously, how stupid do right-wingers think children are? A child who is sure of its gender identity is not going to be confused by knowing of the existence of other people’s gender identities. And a child who is unsure is only going to be made less secure if it feels isolated.

  52. In answer to the original question–yes, it is possible to discuss delaying sexual activity without shaming. Sex can be great, but it can also be awful, and complicated, and it can have significant and sometimes permanent consequences. Encouraging a teen to think about those consequences and what they might mean is important. Teaching them how to reduce risks is important. Teaching them what a healthy relationship looks like, and what an unhealthy relationship looks like is important. Teaching them to respect their bodily autonomy and that of others is important.

    You want them to be able to say no if they don’t feel ready, if it doesn’t feel right, if the other person is pressuring them or manipulating them, etc. You don’t want them to pressure or manipulate someone else. You want them to always be safe. You want them to have sex with someone who treats them with respect and honesty, and to be respectful of and honest to their sexual partner as well. Those are all values you can seek to instill and encourage, in sexual and nonsexual contexts. The result will hopefully be that they don’t have sex before they truly feel ready, and that when they do, they will be better equipped to navigate it.

  53. Echoing some of the other commenters, my mom gave me “the talk” (albeit in very age-appropriate terms) when I was very young, like maybe four or five. I asked her recently why at that age, and she said, “Well, you asked.” When I was older, I think the best thing she did was not make sex out to be this BIG SCARY THING that was either awful and life-altering, or amazing and life-altering.

    My (relatively) progressive grade-school started offering and optional sex ed class staring in third grade. This was at the height of AIDS panic, so there was a good amount of shame and the dominant narrative being “sex can kill you.”

  54. When I was older, I think the best thing she did was not make sex out to be this BIG SCARY THING that was either awful and life-altering, or amazing and life-altering.

    That sounds good. Talk about sex realistically; it can be fun and/or it can kind of suck, and depending on circumstances you may or may not get what you want from it. It’s not some secret grown-up thing, nor is it a necessary coming of age ritual, it’s just some people happily bumping uglies. :p If you take all the mystery and secrecy out of it you probably make the concept of illicit teen relations much less sexy — so the kids will just have sex when they feel like having sex, rather than when they feel like rebelling.

  55. Hmmm…well of course my parents didn’t tell me anything about sex. Made it seem as shameful as possible. And excluded me fron sex education in school (awesome! I learned about taxonomy instead!). Luckily there were romance novels which completely and accurately described all sexual experiences.

  56. Seriously, how stupid do right-wingers think children are? A child who is sure of its gender identity is not going to be confused by knowing of the existence of other people’s gender identities. And a child who is unsure is only going to be made less secure if it feels isolated.

    QFT. And yeah, it’s anecdotal, but my dad used to look really “girly” as a kid (just as I looked really “boyish”) and we basically had the same response…I feel like those stupid arguments that simply acknowledging the existence of trans people is a scary thing should be prefaced by a black screen/white writing slide that says “Standard notice: No actual cis people were harmed in the asking of this question”.

  57. I’d like to see a sex education curriculum where it’s not automatically assumed that everyone WILL want and have sex sometime during their teens or early adulthood. I grew up with the assumption that sexual desire and attraction are something everyone experiences, full stop, and it made me spend several years agonising over my freakishness before I found out that there were other people who also just weren’t interested and have stayed so their whole lives. This curriculum covers GLBT issues, why not add A (for asexual) to that list? Children and teens also need to know that some people just don’t do/get/experience/want to experience all that stuff.

  58. I’d like to see a sex education curriculum where it’s not automatically assumed that everyone WILL want and have sex sometime during their teens or early adulthood. I grew up with the assumption that sexual desire and attraction are something everyone experiences, full stop, and it made me spend several years agonising over my freakishness before I found out that there were other people who also just weren’t interested and have stayed so their whole lives. This curriculum covers GLBT issues, why not add A (for asexual) to that list? Children and teens also need to know that some people just don’t do/get/experience/want to experience all that stuff.

    This is an excellent point.. ALL sexualities should be recognized by not only public curriculum but by those parents, guardians and role models outside of school as well.

  59. ALL sexualities should be recognized by not only public curriculum but by those parents, guardians and role models outside of school as well.

    Word. The unfortunate thing about asexuality is that there just isn’t enough common knowledge about it, so large numbers of parents/educators will just assume the inevitability of the whole process of dating/relationships/sex because they don’t know it exists either!

    Very interesting post btw, going to go have a closer look at the curriculum, it looks pretty nice apart from the above. Now all the conservatives have to do it get over it…

  60. My mother was a teen mom twice over, my brother at 16 and me at 19. Watching the shaming that continues to this day (I turn 28 next month) really did turn me off of sex during my teen years. My mother and father always taught us the basics about sex, but reminded us of their lives together and how difficult it was to raise 2 kids so young.

    In a sense, that gave me a vastly different perspective than most kids. Instead of just waiting until I was ready and with someone I trusted, the mission was to not repeat my mother. Now, I didn’t quite make it to successful-town before having my kids (at 21 and at 26), but my daughter is aware of how babies are made and is at an age where she understands that it’s hard work (courtesy of her hellion brother). I’m hoping that by keeping the dialogue open and making her aware of the responsibilities, she’ll be well equipped to make sexual decisions whenever that happens.

  61. Amazing discussion, glad I read it.

    Do you mean the one that liz posted? Or the one that’s happenning here?

    Because both are bad.

    Liz was dishonest to her daughter, and was giving bad and unrealistic advice, too (don’t talk to your peers about sex)

    Here, in short, people are discussing how to manipulate their children the best. You know what education they get out of it? How to manipulate people and how to lie and hide their feelings. Because they will, sooner or later, see what you’ve done.

    And manipulation and lying is terrible advice when it comes to sex life.

    Opening post is full of its own problems (well, at least Laplace brought some different perspective into it, and that “as long as possible creeped me out, too)

  62. Liz was dishonest to her daughter, and was giving bad and unrealistic advice, too (don’t talk to your peers about sex)

    I agree. Pretty craptastic advice in my book.

  63. Here, in short, people are discussing how to manipulate their children the best. You know what education they get out of it? How to manipulate people and how to lie and hide their feelings. Because they will, sooner or later, see what you’ve done.

    I’m not sure I understand. Where have I advocated manipulating or lying to kids?

  64. The one thing that bugs me about many of these conversations is the conflation of ‘having sex’ with PIV sex (even with the disclaimers in the original post). There’s plenty of sex that isn’t PIV sex, and doesn’t carry the risk of pregnancy. (Although such sex still carries varying degrees of risk for STD transmission.) And there are plenty of couples where PIV sex (or pregnancy) just isn’t even a possibility, due to the anatomies involved. It’s perfectly possible to have sex as a teenager, and yet still have no risk of pregnancy.

    If you only talk about the risks of pregnancy, that ignores any other kinds of sex, and doesn’t provide teens any basis for deciding whether or when to have such sex. And it ignores safer sex practices related to STD transmission, discussions about where testing is available, vaccines available, etc. And those are also very important discussions to be had.

  65. What have people said that promotes lying?

    Children personalities are mostly shaped by modeling (teaching is basically useless).

    At first by their significant others, then peers bring more and more impact.

    Thus, lying to children teaches them how to lie.

    Here, people are discussing how to discourage their children from sex, and share

    arguments that they think are the best. This is manipulation, because they don’t

    discuss how to present the whole story, the discussion is how to “encourage delayed

    sexual activity”. So people get on about emotional maturity (really? friendship

    requires way more emotional maturity than sex), and all these dangers, they get on about pregnancy (why not present sexual activity withing your sex as an alternative? Too homophobic or that pregnancy is just a red herring and you just want your kids not to have sex because, ick?)

    That’s why i think people are very dishonest with their children.

    For example, take Icarus#34 – “Here’s what worked”

    Worked at discouraging, or explaining to kids how bodies work sexually? Let’s see…

    “Discuss the biology of it. Biology is messy, potentially dangerous, hard to describe, and clinical.”

    Ah, yes. Another argument that can be used to convince your kids to delay that peculiar activity, even at the cost of being completely dishonest to them by deliberately manipulating the information you’re giving, not an example of good education.

    (and biology is only messy if you think bodies are shameful, but that’s beside the point)

    (Note: i get very angry – i even wrote 3 more comments that are unsuitable due to too

    much angriness – about such topics and of course i exagerrated. Not everyone here does

    that. Alynn at #7 even pointed our dishonesty at the end of her post)

  66. There’s plenty of sex that isn’t PIV sex, and doesn’t carry the risk of pregnancy.

    This. That’s why i think people are dishonest and even pregnancy (not to mention emotional maturity) is a red herring, and people are just doing a generational transfer of their own sex issues.

    My advice? When you get children, assemble a home library (books at home are good in general), include a few of educational book about sex, and instead of initiating “talks”, work out your own issues with human sexuality.

  67. It’s perfectly possible to have sex as a teenager, and yet still have no risk of pregnancy. If you only talk about the risks of pregnancy, that ignores any other kinds of sex,

    You’re absolutely right, and although I did point out that I wasn’t just referring to PIV, I could have elaborated more on that. My post was indeed mostly pregnancy focused, but discussion does need to be had in regards to different types of sex, particularly where STD’s are concerned.

    Ignoring other types of sex becomes an issue in regards to coercion, especially when PIV is legitimized as the only kind of “real sex”. I have memories of peers who were pressured into participating in oral or anal sex because it “didn’t count” or “wasn’t like it was ‘real sex'”, where on an emotional level people may find these acts as intimate, or not as intimate as PIV.

  68. I’m not sure I understand. Where have I advocated manipulating or lying to kids?

    Andie, i tried to explain it in the comment following your question.

    Your post gives impression that your agenda is delaying your kid sexuality – the thing Laplace mentioned, and more, like:

    “I wish I could find a way to just say ‘Please, for your mother’s sake don’t do it.’ without making them feel like sex is dirty or shameful”

    And then you try to talk about “sexual education”. Do you see how that is manipulative?

    You have your own issues when it comes to your kids sexuality and you try to placate them by trying to steer their behaviour so your own anxiety is lowered. Under the guise of sexual education.

    I know i am saying hurtful things, but i can see no other way.

  69. The one thing that bugs me about many of these conversations is the conflation of ‘having sex’ with PIV sex (even with the disclaimers in the original post). There’s plenty of sex that isn’t PIV sex, and doesn’t carry the risk of pregnancy. (Although such sex still carries varying degrees of risk for STD transmission.) And there are plenty of couples where PIV sex (or pregnancy) just isn’t even a possibility, due to the anatomies involved. It’s perfectly possible to have sex as a teenager, and yet still have no risk of pregnancy.

    I totally agree that reducing all sex to PIV sex is a mistake. Part of talking to your kids about sex should be making sure they understand that there are lots of ways to have sex, and that they understand the “varying degrees of risk” you mention. At the same time, though, our culture conflates all sex with PIV sex, and I think explaining that might be necessary (depending on the age of your kids, etc.).

    Plus, PIV sex is really important to a lot of male-female couples. When I started having sex, I hated PIV while loving so many other components of sex. But it was incredibly important to my boyfriend. We worked through it, and now it’s important to me too. That is *not* to say that all people, if they try hard enough, will like or want PIV or find it important. PIV doesn’t have to be part of a sexual relationship, straight or otherwise. But given the importance our culture puts on PIV sex and the pressure to define sexual relationships using that as the sole measure, I think it’s just unrealistic to expect that not only your child but also their partner(s) will be okay with a non-PIV definition of sex, and they should be prepared for that – to not only be educated, but be educators themselves, if they choose to define sex in a nontraditional way. (I hope this makes sense, I’ve been rambling!)

  70. word up TMK… dropping the truth bombs

    however I can see where the mothers here are coming from and i think it’s because they get an ick factor more than anything else.

    i think if i was a mum i might feel uncomfortable at the idea of my daughter having sex although it’s hard to say. I’d like to think I would be interested in encouraging her to ‘delay sexual activity’ tho I’d like to think that id give her the facts and let her make up her own mind.

    as to people saying that kids need to have an emotional maturity to deal with sex. I dunno if that’s necessarily 100% true. maybe half the reason that the first time having sex is such an ordeal is cos we build it up to be that way in kids minds.

    i mean i dont mean to disrespect you people for whom sex is like this huge thing that they had to save for someone they really love or marriage or whatever. i respect your views. but thats not the same as how it is for everyone. for others it might be more like hey i like u, u like me let’s give this sex thing a try. thats how it was for me. and i honestly dont think theres anything wrong with that.

    so i dont think necessarily that saying to your daughter like ‘sex is this huge big deal and you should only give it up to some1 u really love’ is a very healthy attitude

  71. You have your own issues when it comes to your kids sexuality and you try to placate them by trying to steer their behaviour so your own anxiety is lowered.

    Hell yeah I do. I won’t even begin to deny that. Is it right? No, probably not. Is it something I’m working out with myself, while at the same time trying to keep my kids protected? Yeah, actually, it is. That was part of writing this article was about. Because I respect this community and the perspectives and thoughts I see here.

    I don’t think bringing attention to risks is manipulation when it’s balanced with the recognition that although risky, it’s still a normal part of life and fun and all the good stuff, but perhaps better put off until one is able to deal with the not-so-fun stuff as well. Ultimately, it won’t be me who decides that, I know.

  72. TMK (#71) you made the implication that messy somehow implies bad. I did no such thing. You implied a value judgement that was not there. SHAME ON YOU. And if you are going to imply that sex is a clean act, well I have news for you GOOD sex SHOULD be messy.

    You also implied a value judgement as to what worked means in my original post. When I first had sex I was ready, my partner was ready, there was no shame, no guilt, no fear, and no loss of respect. I didn’t feel dirty, and she didn’t feel used. We were prepared for any results and knew how to talk to each other about them. We also knew how to talk to each other about our bodies (well mostly, I was far from the perfect lover). What more could you ask for?

    You call sex peculiar, interesting word choice, do you have issues with sex that you have not settled with yourself?

  73. One of the phrases that jumped out at me in reading about this was, as opposed to abstinence as taught by many sex education curricula, the idea of ‘delayed sexual activity’. It seems to put across the idea that sex is going to happen, but let’s just try and put it off a bit, until you’re good and ready.

    I have a confession to make. As a parent, the idea of my kids as sexual beings, scares the beejeebus out of me. It’s coming though, I know it. My oldest one, at eleven, has discovered ‘boys’ and while she enjoys the attention, she thankfully still makes faces at the thought of anything beyond hand-holding.

    It’s coming though. I’d like to be able to put it off as long as possible.

    I agree with your stance more as a way of parenting than a school curriculum. You seem to be saying that it’s more a parent’s role to steer their child away from danger than it is to rescue them from danger. I however am not sure that I equate the idea of ‘delaying’ sexual activity’ with ‘giving a full picture of the panoply of of sexual experience so you one can make an informed choice.’ I mean who can say what ‘good and ready’ is?

  74. word up TMK… dropping the truth bombs

    The only bombs I see are “enter bar” bombs. But to each her own.

  75. I’m only twenty-one, so much closer to being a kid than having one, but what I’d emphasize is the idea of choice and trying to make sure your kids can separate out their self esteem from having a boyfriend/girlfriend or having sex. I think that a lot of the time when teenagers end up having sex before they’re good and ready it’s because their feeling pressure from the partner/friends/society of some sort of another, and making sure they can deal with that would be helpful.

  76. Raising kids is essentially manipulation. Enculturnation is just teaching kids the arbitrary rules they have to live by. Today I spent time explaining to my niece that while, yes, they are her “boobies” (as she calls them) and she can touch them and tell people they cannot touch them, she really can’t let anyone but mommy, daddy, and her doctor touch them. These rules seem ridiculous to her, she’s four. She wanted to let her friends, if they asked nicely. She can’t. Flat out. No matter how comfortable she is, no matter how relatively innocent it would be. Even I have no reason to touch them, shes big enough to wash and apply lotion. So yeah, I manipulate the hell out of that kid. For her safety. Lessons on your body and how to relate it to the world at large are valuable, and should be age appropriate to the child.

  77. The UK was set to have kids of a comparable age (4-5) taught with a DVD produced by Channel 4 showing explicit cartoons of a couple having sex. Schools seem to have been scared off only by the threat of legal action regarding sexual assaults that are already happening in playgrounds following abusive sex education lessons.

    Kids can’t always follow nuanced if not mixed messages. The British approach to delaying sexual activity is to tell kids to try and put first sexual experience off if they’re not absolutely sure that they want to go ahead, then give them condoms in case they end up having sex anyway, even if they’re not sure they want to. I can appreciate the rationale behind either strategy in isolation, but to use both together is why we have the highest teen pregnancy rates and the highest teen STD rates in Western Europe.

  78. Talking to my almost fourteen year old daughter about sex has been one of the most challenging aspects of raising her because she has never once, not once, asked me a single question about it. And every time she has had to bring home some assignment from her health class where she was supposed to discuss values with a parent, it was all she could do to NOT curl up into a little ball and die of embarrassment just to hear me mention S E X. And I used to take her to the clinic and have her chill upstairs in the offices when she didn’t have school and I had to work, so it wasn’t like she was surrounded in a repressive environment where there was any hint of shame surrounding sex and any of its consequences. Hell, if I still lived in Iowa, I would have told her the way to get a judicial bypass for an abortion should she get pregnant, didn’t want to tell me or her dad, and wanted to have an abortion, even though I would much, much rather know, simply because I would want her to have that much agency with her sexuality, if she did fall toward the het end of the spectrum, which I suspect she does not. (Where we live now there isn’t a parental notification restriction) But still, BALL OF CRINGE.

  79. so i dont think necessarily that saying to your daughter like ‘sex is this huge big deal and you should only give it up to some1 u really love’ is a very healthy attitude

    I’d say even more. It’s toxic.

    Consider consequences that are likely to be drawn: if you feel desire, that must mean you love the person!

    (yes, common logical mistake, but it’s common for a reason. People think that way)

    Or:

    If you love that person, you must have sex with him/her. Can you see where this is going to (“if you loved me you’d have sex with me!” manipulative tactic)

    Which brings up another thing:

    Ignoring other types of sex becomes an issue in regards to coercion, especially when PIV is legitimized as the only kind of “real sex”. I have memories of peers who were pressured into participating in oral or anal sex because it “didn’t count” or “wasn’t like it was ‘real sex’”, where on an emotional level people may find these acts as intimate, or not as intimate as PIV.

    And this, for example, is the effect of parents/society fixation on sex. Why do you think teenagers manipulate (and succeed in) other teenagers that way? Because kids get following messages:

    1. Sex is extremely important and specific activity that changes much and carries a lot of meaning.
    2. If you can’t find arguments against someone arguments, you have to change your behavior even if you don’t feel like doing it (how many times that got used to win a ‘win a discussion’ against children who in general are not very good at rhetorics?) – and this knowledge later gets used in what i wrote above with “if you loved…”.

  80. To add to TMK, another aspect of that message that I experienced was that if you “gave” your virginity to someone that means that you automatically loved them. Now I had a really fun and safe first sexual encounter but that person and I were not meant to be together, it was a toxic and unhealthy relationship that I felt pressured to be in because 1) I gave her my V-Card so that means we are now in love right? and 2) Because my Mother found out we were having the lesbian sexytimes o noes! and freaked the hell out about it, my girlfriend at the time the became one of the only people in my life that didn’t treat me like an evil ball of sin and rebellion.

  81. yes, they are her “boobies” (as she calls them) and she can touch them and tell people they cannot touch them, she really can’t let anyone but mommy, daddy, and her doctor touch them. These rules seem ridiculous to her, she’s four. She wanted to let her friends, if they asked nicely.

    I totally relate to your niece, libraraygoose. I generally let any of my friends touch mine, so long as they ask nicely 😛

    Raising kids is essentially manipulation.

    Yup. You spend the first ten years lying to them, they spend the next ten lying to you. Or at least that’s how it went with my mom and I.

  82. Amusingly, my “Christian Sexuality” classes began in the First or Second Grade of my Catholic school. I remember learning about anatomy (names and locations mostly), that babies come from *something* men and women do (when someone asked exactly HOW the sperm gets to the egg, the teacher said “ask your parents”), and of course, ABSTINENCE UNTIL MARRIAGE.

    By the Fifth Grade we learned about PERIODS! And that having sex before marriage can have one of only three outcomes: STDs, PREGNANCY or PREGNANCY *AND* STDs. Also, ABORTION KILLS A BABY.

    From Sixth to Twelfth Grade, the lessons of Fifth Grade were merely repeated annually.

    Things never once mentioned included: homosexuality, trans-ness, rape, child molestation, oral sex, anal sex, single parenthood, gay parenthood, contraception, reproductive health, IVF and other reproductive-assistance options. DID NOT EXIST.

  83. I totally relate to your niece, libraraygoose. I generally let any of my friends touch mine, so long as they ask nicely 😛

    The worst part was finding a reason they couldn’t. I didn’t want to be like, “Well, it’s creepy.” So I went with, “They have their own to touch, which you can’t touch.” She seemed to accept this.

  84. Maybe my kids are both too young (under 5), but I’m not sure how much the thought of them having sex, per se, bothers me. I am afraid that I won’t be able to communicate the things I want to them because they won’t listen to me, so I’m conscious of trying to develop an honest relationship with them now. Of course I don’t want them to get hurt or be surprised by a consequence they weren’t aware of. I plan to try to communicate to them the great diversity that exists in sexual desires, expression, etc. and that there isn’t a “right way” to be sexual except insofar as sexual activity should be consensual (with hopefully a lot of discussion of what that means) and respectful of yourself and others. I want to communicate to them that people have different values about sex and that they will have to figure out what their own values are—i.e., when is sex appropriate, with whom, etc. I want them to know that there can be a social stigma regarding some types of sexuality, and that while I will not disapprove of anything as long as it’s consensual/respectful, there can be repercussions in people’s lives because of their sexuality. I plan to tell them about my own sexual values, which are pretty conservative and fear-based (rape, pregnancy, STDs, stigma), and admit that I’m not sure how healthy that is. I will encourage them to wait and think about things if they are not sure—that sex isn’t necessarily that big of a deal, so turning down an invitation to reflect on it doesn’t mean it will never happen again. I also hope to communicate to them that you can have a lot of fun with your clothes on—to not rush into a certain kind of sex but rather to explore being intimate with others (and just by yourself), and that there are a variety of ways to manage feelings of arousal. So, I guess my message is that almost whatever their inner sexuality is, it’s okay (seek help if drawn toward anyone who can’t consent), but that they should give some thought about how they want to express their sexuality with others to think about the potential consequences and how they feel about them, and of course all the nuts and bolts about anatomy and safe sex.

    @Caperton—I think your experience is important to share, if you’re able, as an example of how hard it is to juggle emotions with thoughts. Pressures from peers or your partner are really hard to overcome. It’s also important for people to know that people survive things they regret or are hurt by.

  85. I am going to deliver the same kind of points my dad made to me when I was teenager:

    the first time might be your worst time because you and the person you;re doing with probably wont be good at it

    It’s important to be patient with your partner and that you trust each other to be safe, honest and discrete, not everyone needs to know what’s going on between you two.

    No one has a right to your body and likewise you have no right to someone else’s body

    Sex has wonderful beenfits and horrible consequences, including deadly STDs, unplanned pregnancy, and altering a relationship- things definitely change (sometimes for the better other times for the worse) with the introduction of sex.

  86. Hi Gerry, I think I remember you appearing before. Would you care to give a (non-Daily-Mail) citation for 4-5 year olds in UK schools being exposed to sexually explicit cartoons?

    As I mentioned on that previous occasion, the sex ed I got in a UK school ~12 years ago consisted of: a handful of lessons at age 12 on ‘whats going to happen during puberty’, a year after I’d started menstruating; and one, hour long lesson with a doctor on how to use barrier contraception at age 13 (missing out many important points, it wasn’t until university I found out about e.g. not using oil-based lubricants). Woeful to say the least, and improvements were drastically needed in the curriculum.

  87. I don’t remember my parents ever having the Talk with me. They handed me a few books about puberty and sex at a young age and told me to find a confidant. I think I turned out ok and waited til I was completely ready to have sex, but now I think of how much I would have benefitted from honest and open discussion about, well all of it.

    I think the influence of the media and peers can be so overwhelming, that even I managed to harbor some unhealthy attitudes that made me vulnerable. Because I was never able to talk to my family about sex (in part because I’m the youngest daughter) I feel very strongly that I will talk openly and candidly to my kids.

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