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Equality and Justice

Often when I talk to people about equality (I do not just inflict these questions on Feministe readers), the first response is “we should just treat each other the same.” A statement that is typically followed by the assertion that they always treat everyone the same.

But, of course, people aren’t the same. We live in a complex hierarchical world that values some attributes and abilities over others, makes access to certain preferences are more readily available.

As a few people pointed in the comments on the last thread this approach to equality – which is a variation on resource equality – doesn’t lead to a just society it merely perpetuates existing inequalities. Equal treatment sounds great but if we stock the world’s bathrooms with urinals then those of us who need to sit to pee are going to be highly uncomfortable.

The philosophical counterpoints, (Bentham’s) utilitarianism and welfare equality, are not without their own problems. To start with the obvious, happiness or utility are not measurable, not easily comparable, fluid, and probably competitive. But even if we were to posit an omniscient being with the amazing ability to continually adjust the happiness level of every person on earth – we’ll call hir Super Utilitarian, we’re still left with the immoral preference problem. If a person derives well-being from causing harm and the rules of the society restrict that person’s activities, then Super Utilitarian would have to provide additional compensation to that person in order to equalize hir well-being. Allocating additional resources to someone because they derive happiness from hurting other people violates my personal sense of justice. But your mileage may vary.

The middle ground is equal opportunity or equal access to welfare which many of you found compelling. Mxe cited Alexander Berkman’s seminal work What is Anarchism? but philosophers from the other side of the political spectrum like G.A. Cohen agree with the principle of equal opportunity (although they disagree in many of the details). To completely butcher the concept with a summary, equal opportunity is giving each person the same opportunity to satisfy their own preferences. Said differently, equal opportunity is the idea that we should equalize everything but “preferences.” In that sense, preferences are seen as something that may justifiably lead one person to a different outcome than another person.

One difficulty as you may imagine is determining what is a “preference” and what is luck or circumstance. Is ambition a preference? Is the enjoyment of more dangerous activities a preference? Preferences aren’t formed in a vacuum and even more challenging is the possibility that our preferences may be ordered against one another [University of Warwick]. To move to an even more meta perspective, by delineating between circumstances and preferences, particularly where the difference isn’t at all clear, aren’t we simply introducing a new system that values certain “preferences” or “circumstances” such that once again we’re living in a complex hierarchical world filled with a New and Improved type of oppression and inequality?

Fucking hell. Apparently, we need Super Preference Identifier.

Once preferences are identified, under the equal opportunity theory, people may still justifiably suffer as a result of those preferences. In the most extreme example, if my preference is to exchange all of my resources for the chance to win the lotto then I am responsible for outcome of that risk including having zero resources on which to survive. Very few proponents of equal opportunity would argue that equal opportunity should equalize poor decision making – although I would argue that poor decision making is a feature of human nature not an aberration. I think that is what makes SamLL’s definition of equality so intuitively appealing:

[A]n equal world is one where no person in that world would be overwhelmingly unhappy with the prospect of having their social position swapped with a different person, selected uniformly at random from all others in the world.

This definition provides for the exercise of preferences but limiting the bounds of any resulting inequality. Still without a super power we’re left with trying to sort out the fundamental tension of wanting people to have the ability to exercise their preferences (or choice) and never wanting the outcomes of individuals to be so disparate as to be intrinsically unjust. I’ve got some ideas along those lines that I’ll share in the next post (this one is hitting tl;dr territory) but what are your thoughts?


97 thoughts on Equality and Justice

  1. Oh my, I didn’t expect to see my name in that entry!

    As for Berkman’s definition of equality:

    “Individual needs and tastes differ, as appetites differ. It is equal opportunity to satisfy them that constitutes true equality.”

    I think a better way to phrase this is to say that equality should be based on liberty. That is, in a truly equal society, everyone has the opportunity to do what they want (so long as their choices don’t harm people, of course).

    Also,

    One difficulty as you may imagine is determining what is a “preference” and what is luck or circumstance. Is ambition a preference? Is the enjoyment of more dangerous activities a preference?

    Really, I don’t think that there’s any problem with determining preferences. In fact, all that really matters is that they don’t harm society in any way. As for determining circumstances, I think that it’s unimportant so long as there is equality of opportunity.

  2. Clarification on my previous post: when I talk about Berkman’s definition of equality, keep in mind that his perspective is purely anarchistic. Some people in the previous thread assumed that his views were archistic.

  3. The utilty monster problem has been dealt with at length in the literature; just know that it isn’t the slam dunk many amateur philosophers think it is.

    Social status seems almost deliberately vague. Imagine a case of two people, one with physical features almost uniformly agreed to be highly attractive percentile and one with physical features that render him/her distatesful to most. There doesn’t seem to be a viable process by which equality can be reached. The one that first comes to mind, redistribution, would inevitably lead to numerous unintended consequences. SamLL’s prescription for equality seems unattainable, and thus not a goal to strive for.

  4. Oh, and one more thing: I think another excellent definition of equality of opportunity is the elimination of artificial social privilege. This is also expressly anarchic, but it doesn’t have to be.

  5. @Mxe,

    But in a very practical way what does equal access mean? What things are we equalizing? To use an example, I think we would all agree that equal access means that people like me who we’re born with asthma should have access to medication. But what abou someone who intentionally damaged their lungs? Most access egalitarians would argue that such a persons preferences lead to their condition and consequently equality does not require that they have the same access.

  6. But in a very practical way what does equal access mean? What things are we equalizing? To use an example, I think we would all agree that equal access means that people like me who we’re born with says should have access to medication. But what about someone who intentionally damaged their lungs? Most access egalitarians would argue that such a persons preferences lead to their condition and consequently equality does not require that they have the same access.

    I think equal access means allowing people to have the opportunity to live life to the fullest without harming others. And I personally think that, for my worldview (anarcha-feminism), determining what things ought to be equally accessible is pretty simple.

    But regardless of whether equality of opportunity implies anarchism, there should be equal access to, for instance, healthcare within a society based on equality of opportunity, because pretty much everyone needs their basic health needs met in order to live a good life. Equal access to education would be another thing, because education has great social utility for a host of reasons.

    As for your example: this is about equality of opportunity, so even if some people are reckless in regards to their own health, they still deserve access to medication no matter what. To deny them that right just because they exercised bodily autonomy in a negative way would be silly – at least in my view.

  7. I completely agree. Its an asinine outcome of the line drawing access egalitarians try to do in order to inject the concept of equality with a notion of dessert. Of course, by rejecting welfare egalitarianism because of the immoral preference problem, I’m engaged in the same exercise, so…

  8. Mxe, where opportunity is non-existent for whatever reason, what is the reasonable course of action that you propose? (For example, if there are no hospitals in a given remote area, meaning the opportunity for healthcare is non-existent)

  9. Mxe, where opportunity is non-existent for whatever reason, what is the reasonable course of action that you propose? (For example, if there are no hospitals in a given remote area, meaning the opportunity for healthcare is non-existent)

    Well, regardless of whether there’s opportunity, people can’t live life very peacefully or fully if they can’t even get their basic needs taken care of, so I guess people simply should establish hospitals where necessary. I don’t know what else to say.

    On an unrelated note: What do you mean by “of a different stripe”? Are you by chance a mutualist, individualist, etc.?

  10. Libertarian cum without-adjectives (har).

    I was asking to ascertain — and I suppose more broadly — thoughts on the idea that it’s one thing to say that people should have the opportunity to X and its taken by some or implied to mean that someone should compel another to provide X (which is undesirable in my opinion)

  11. As I said on the previous thread, I think equality of opportunity by itself is not enough for a good society. I would also want at least:

    Justice – basic rights of all should be secured. The strong should not be allowed to unjustly dominate the weak.

    Compassion – As in the OP Lotto example, people sometimes need to be protected from the consequences of their own actions.

  12. One other issue that I see with equality of opportunity is that it does not necessarily handle difference of ability well. For example, if you are born blind, then you will not have equal opportunities compared to an able bodied person.

  13. I believe in principles. I’ve worked with children and adults of various kinds of special needs, and my principle is that every human being deserves dignity, respect, and love, regardless of what they have done or what they are able–or unable–to do.

    In a literal sense, that means the kid that punched me in the face and the adult who writes on the walls with poop and the teenager who likes to sit and be read to are all equally deserving of my time.

  14. I believe in principles. I’ve worked with children and adults of various kinds of special needs, and my principle is that every human being deserves dignity, respect, and love, regardless of what they have done or what they are able–or unable–to do.

    In a literal sense, that means the kid that punched me in the face and the adult who writes on the walls with poop and the teenager who likes to sit and be read to are all equally deserving of my time.

  15. I have a question about the medical care. Suppose that we agree that even someone who purposely harms themselves deserves access to care. What if a certain portion of the population who utilizes the opportunity to harm themselves and escape the consequences is taking up a proportion of the medical resources significant enough to reduce the access of people who have not harmed themselves and thus cause them to suffer consequences of health problems that are not their choice.

    Are we going to assign triage priority to the people who have not purposefully harmed themselves? Or are we assuming the removal of scarcity? The remove of scarcity does free us from quite a few otherwise pesky problems.

    For instance we don’t have to deal with financial constraints, or the chance that there are not enough doctors to treat all the patients with a given disease.

  16. I think Sen’s capability approach helps address the idea of what is equality. Sen jettisoned the idea of utility and resource access as a measures of equality and instead focused on functionings and capabilities — the degree to which people can exercise agency. The end in this approach is positive freedom (freedom to) instead of negative freedom (freedom from) and material well being (material well being is a means to an end, you lack positive freedom when you are suffering from deprivation — Sen’s work is largely influenced by having living through the 1943 Bengal famine).

    In a gross over simplification (it has been a couple years since I’ve read Inequality Reexamined), a system is to be judged by the concrete capabilities of its people. Because each person has a different bundle of abilities, everyone doesn’t get the same thing but instead what they need to make the choices they want to make. The more equitable the system the more it allows for people make choices — including bad choices that reduce their utility or choices to deprive themselves (i.e., a person choosing to fast is not the same as a person starving).

    So, people with disabilities, of color, from disadvantaged neighborhoods, in food insecure homes, etc. would not get the exact same set of opportunities (however you might define that) as white middle class kids from the suburbs. They would get the resources they need to achieve what they want to achieve.

    While I like the way SamLL’s frame his/her definition… isn’t it another way of stating Rawl’s veil of ignorance?

  17. Suppose that we agree that even someone who purposely harms themselves deserves access to care. What if a certain portion of the population who utilizes the opportunity to harm themselves

    This question comes up all of the time in relation to fat people. It usually sounds like “OMG obesity crisis! Fat people are a drain on health care! I don’t want my tax dollars going to fat people!”

    The problem comes from the basic question of risk. What is bad for one’s health? Not wearing a seat belt? Smoking? Too much salad dressing? How many french fries can I eat before you’ll deny me medical care? Should we make bungee jumping illegal? What about mountain climbing? If I skip breakfast, am I utilizing “the opportunity to harm” myself?

    We have to accept that different people lead different lifestyles, and some people engage in riskier behavior than others, and we’re not going to agree on what’s bad for us.

  18. @Matt, I agree that’s the problem that access egalitarians are trying to resolve by distinguishing between circumstance, luck and preference. There are people who will require additional resources (like me!) and so long as we live in a world with scarcity the needs of those individuals will reduce the overall resources of the group. Access egalitarians try to resolve the problem by saying these people “deserve” additional resources because their need is not their fault and those people do not because their need (for additional resources) is their fault. Its an appealing solution and would allow us to triage. But would it actually lead to a just an equal society? And who determines what is preference and what is circumstance.

  19. @abra, I would argue that SamLL’s definition is a little more useful than the Veil of Ignorance. To completely steal an ideal from Mr. Kristen, the flaw in Rawls’ theory is that anyone could make an a priori determination from an a posteriori position. All of the bias and prejudice we have on this side of veil comes with us when we try to imagine what would happen if we were behind the veil. In addition, the veil of ignorance is a one time event which means that in subsequent periods further inequality may be introduced into the system. I think SamLL’s definition side steps both of those problems.

  20. Woohoo for serial commenting!

    @With Love, Yup. Actually I think a lot of our disputes are really about this idea of who deserves to bear the cost or reap the rewards of their preferences. It came up very explicitly in that enormous Soda thread, but its seems to me that we are also arguing about it when we discuss parenthood or abortion or sex or dating or…or…or.

  21. Compassion – As in the OP Lotto example, people sometimes need to be protected from the consequences of their own actions.

    disagree 100%, I’d rather have a society that grants me freedom over fairness.

    But then again I don’t believe in objective right and wrong so that probably already precludes me from being compatible with this conversation as most here would see fit <_<

  22. @Kristen J, I think you and Mr Kristen are right about the Veil. While it is a useful jumping off point, I think its usefulness is limited to establishing that we have a moral obligation to minimize material deprivation. And, you are right, it doesn’t adequately account for exogenous factors that introduce inequality (though you could argue that that constitutes a new starting point and thus requires going behind the veil again). More importantly, it doesn’t really account for endogenous factors that lead to greater inequality–in other words, absent mechanisms designed to minimize inequality rather than just minimize deprivation, inequality grows over time.

    While I agree that SamLL’s formulation is more useful in that it c/would account for endogenous and even exogenous factors that can increase inequality, even that requires that the individual would abandon certain biases and preferences and have foresight and have reasoning capacity to appreciate the long-term effects of the aforementioned factors.

    I think the biggest stumbling block though is the use of the term “social position”* without requiring the abandonment of preferences because social position is a relative state. People’s preference is about their social position is a preference about their relationship to others. The utility they derive from it is about being higher/lower than others. Whereas the Veil is generally used to establish a floor for absolute material well being and/or political freedoms, there is no way to establish a floor for social position (you can put a floor the material well being of the lowest social positions, they are still the lowest position).

    For example: I would wager the VIP woman at Romney’s fundraiser would be overwhelming unhappy at the prospect of having to switch places with a religious woman even if her preferences for material goods were met and the religious woman might very well feel the same about the switch though objectively it is an improvement. NB: the women could have exercised the same degree of agency in achieving their respective statuses, so this still doesn’t address questions of agency.

    *I fully allow that I could be misunderstanding and/or defining “social status” differently than SamLL or you but that in and of itself is problematic. It could be that SamLL logically arrives at the conclusion that switching statuses would mean that everyone would agree that all social statuses should have a minimum of set freedoms just like the Veil should lead people to set a floor on material well being. However, I think those are benefits of social statuses that can and do change over time not the defining characteristics of the statuses.

  23. I don’t believe in objective right and wrong so that probably already precludes me from being compatible with this conversation as most here would see fit

    Objective right and wrong? As in, a right and wrong floating around in space free of human beings and our values? No, I don’t believe in that either. I decide what I consider right and wrong based on my values and what matters to me.

  24. I have a question about the medical care. Suppose that we agree that even someone who purposely harms themselves deserves access to care. What if a certain portion of the population who utilizes the opportunity to harm themselves and escape the consequences is taking up a proportion of the medical resources significant enough to reduce the access of people who have not harmed themselves and thus cause them to suffer consequences of health problems that are not their choice.

    Well, I think one question that needs to be asked in regards to this is “Why would that happen in the first place?” I think that there are a lot of social preconditions to a free, egalitarian society. I know that even an egalitarian society would inevitably have some people who intentionally harm themselves, but to the extent you’ve stated? Clearly there’s more than meets the eye here.

  25. @abra, Re: the status problem. YES! Exactly. Even if we get to where that particular version of equality is practicable we still have the problem of identifying what is a “status” (or a “circumstance” or whatever term thatmeans the “things we should equalize for”) when the line between status and preference is very, very fuzzy (if not simply imaginary).

  26. What if a certain portion of the population who utilizes the opportunity to harm themselves and escape the consequences

    Since when is getting treatment “escaping the consequences” of self-harm?

    And the other question is, do we honestly think that somebody who is suffering because of harm they’ve caused themselves is suffering less than somebody suffering because of harm they did not cause themselves? I suspect not. I suspect the reverse, judging from the people I know who have self-harmed.

  27. That [withholding treatment from people who intentionally harm themselves] is so not an appealing solution to me, is all I can say. It’s a sadistic solution.

    That solution doesn’t really appeal to me, either, but I don’t think it’s as bad as I thought; i mean, if they actually stop harming themselves intentionally, then they could receive help in that particular area again. Perhaps I’m viewing this too narrowly, though.

  28. Oh, and by self-harm, I’m referring to doing reckless things like overdosing on drugs and so on. I’m not talking about the people who harm themselves due to psychological problems (e.g. people who cut themselves to cope with depression) and whatnot.

  29. I’m referring to doing reckless things like overdosing on drugs and so on. I’m not talking about the people who harm themselves due to psychological problems (e.g. people who cut themselves to cope with depression) and whatnot.

    But how are you going to distinguish between the two? People take street drugs for lots of reasons–one is self-medicating, for instance.

    And if we fail to treat people who OD, they will die. My freshman year of college, I called 911 for a girl across the hall who, to celebrate her birthday, had done 18 shots (she’d turned 18) on an empty stomach and subsequently passed out. Did she not deserve to have her stomach pumped because she’d done something reckless and stupid? Haven’t we all done reckless and stupid things?

  30. @Kirsten, that is why I think that while the utilitarian concept of equality is useful as a starting point for moral reasoning (asks people to engage empathetically, if minimally or simplistically) but only helps us establish there should probably be a floor, not what that floor should be or the structure beyond that.

  31. I mean, what if next time I cross against the light I get hit by a car? Do I not deserve treatment? Should I not get it? Do I have to swear on pain of whatever never to cross against the light again in order to get it? My father flies to Egypt for work tonight. If he is hurt while there, does he not get treatment?

    I find it fundamentally inhumane to let the state or hospital administration sit in judgment of whether or not individuals’ decisions are meritorious or wise enough to merit medical treatment.

  32. And just to add to the complexity. The concept of recklessness is very much tied to normative judgments. Is unprotected sex reckless? What about skydiving? Eating a hamburger? Or (GASP) giving birth in your home?

  33. So there should be no consequences for anyone’s actions? That seems ridiculous to me.

    I’ve heard of school districts in poor neighborhoods around where I used to live sending kids home with a ‘bag supper’ (peanut butter sandwich and apple type of thing) because they knew that the school breakfast and lunch the children were already served were often the only meals the children had. This despite the high level of food stamp/wic eligibility and usage in this particular area.

    This seems to be a possible solution to protect the innocent from any consequences of their parent/guardian’s actions that would harm them (in the specific way that depriving food from lack of money, like the lotto tickets mentioned upthread, is harm, of course this can’t protect all from all ways of harm) but it seems like a good start.

  34. Or (GASP) giving birth in your home?

    Don’t say it! Already I hear the flapping of Dr. Amy’s wings…

  35. So there should be no consequences for anyone’s actions? That seems ridiculous to me.

    Again, how is getting medical treatment “no consequences”? You sound like forced-birthers objecting to women not having to deal with “the consequences” of having sex.

    But again, in that case, tell me: are the consequences outlined above acceptable to you? That someone who ODs at 18 dies of alcohol poisoning? That someone who crosses against the light loses the use of her legs? That somebody who visits a country in the midst of unrest dies of untreated wounds? That somebody who has unprotected sex is denied anti-retrovirals? That somebody who eats hamburger medium-rare dies of e. coli?

    Medical treatment is not about teaching a suffering a person some kind of lesson.

  36. Sounds like some people here would like to set up in real life those famously fictional “death panels.” Who shall live? Who shall die? Only the panel knows.

    I’m quite sure such a panel would have decided that I should simply have been left to die from the complications — I mean, the consequences! — of my GRS three years ago. What rational person, especially someone with my extremely complicated medical history, would have that kind of surgery? Certainly not someone deserving of expensive medical care! (As I was pretty much specifically told by the doctors at the Montreal hospital where I ended up in the ER, and was left lying there for the next 6 days because they didn’t want to undertake any expensive measures like the intestinal surgery they thought was necessary, out of fear that my insurance company wouldn’t reimburse them. It was bad enough that I wasn’t Canadian, but they’d never even had a patient like me before. I’m sure they breathed a big sigh of relief when a New York hospital finally agreed to take me and they were able to get rid of me, after making sure that I paid in advance myself for the Montreal-NYC ambulance. I was just lucky I had a high enough credit limit on my credit card.)

    I can’t wait to find out what the demographic composition of the necessary panels will be.

  37. I find it fundamentally inhumane to let the state or hospital administration sit in judgment of whether or not individuals’ decisions are meritorious or wise enough to merit medical treatment.

    I see your point, and I agree completely. I agree that getting treatment isn’t the same as dodging consequences; if someone needs help, they need help. To deny people aid because they hurt themselves, made a stupid mistake, etc. is to basically engage in some twisted form of retributive “justice” (and revenge is already a horrible idea).

    That we can’t afford to opt for that solution makes the problem a bit trickier, though. I guess it can’t be solved merely through policy, but through a whole bunch of social changes. For instance, for something like drug overdose, I think that the reasons that people do it need to be addressed before anything else. Is it lack of awareness of the consequences of ODing? A way to cope with mental problems? Or a combination of those causes, possibly along with other causes? I personally think that there are a host of causes here. And this similar line of thought can be extended to anything else that leads to a drainage in the healthcare system.

    Besides that, the amount of resources and availability of care in general are other important things to consider.

  38. I can’t wait to find out what the demographic composition of the necessary panels will be.

    Very responsible people who never, ever, ever take any risks, I can only assume. I try rarely to quote Christian gospel, but, um, let he among you who is without risk-taking, reckless actions cast the first stone, please.

  39. On utilitarianism: Okay, suppose for a second there was a way we could sacrifice one person, and save many! Or perhaps just endanger one person, and weaken them for a while to save one person. Now in this hypothetical scenario utilitarianism would support requiring people to die, or people to be endangered to save others.

    Now how many people support this system? Yeah, no one (or maybe a tiny minority). Utilitarianism sounds cool, but no one really uses it in the real world.

  40. For instance, for something like drug overdose, I think that the reasons that people do it need to be addressed before anything else.

    My understanding is that a lot of ODs happen when a person has been through detox, been clean a little while, and is then relapsing, because the body is no longer used to processing what had been a “normal” dose.

  41. @EG,

    I dunno…rock throwing sounds risky. What if you drop a stone on your foot, do you deserve medical treatment for the break?

  42. I am a little surprised by all the talk about “consequences” here. I think I saw earlier but I think it could bear repeating that our understanding of what is — I’ll just say it — bad behavior is inextricably linked social structure and to the consequences that the system we currently have assigns them by default. It is certainly is worth noting these consequences are far from equitable on any number of dimensions (SES, race, etc.). If the social structure were more equitable the consequences would not be as severe and we wouldn’t understand it as so very, very bad.

    Just a quick comparison, drug abuse: how differently does society, including but not limited to the legal system, treat the suburban mom hooked on prescription pain killers, buying pills illicitly vs. the sex worker hooked on heroine (they are in the same drug family, similar potency and both are breaking the law).

    I am not arguing for eliminating consequences but focus on changing structure so that self harm doesn’t increase one’s utility. And I think severe consequences are counter productive in that they put people and their dependents on a spiral where self harm does increase utility.

  43. So there should be no consequences for anyone’s actions? That seems ridiculous to me.

    waaah consequences consequences waah We need to treat the people who we deem to be behaving improperly/dangerously/badly/irresponsibly like little kiddies and give them more consequences and teach them a lesson!

    you think that what someone that cuts themselves really needs is some smug morally superior ass like yrself to dole out the correct quantities of additional consequences (all for their own good of course!) ?

    fact is that people who are self harming (meaning cutting themselves or similar — not the stupid definition someone introduced above) are already facing consequences everday in their lives in the form of depression and that’s whats making them self harm in the first place.

  44. @Unaccomplushed
    Consider the case of the degenerate gambler who foolishly gambles away everything. Should society let him starve to death?

  45. Lamech:

    On utilitarianism: Okay, suppose for a second there was a way we could sacrifice one person, and save many! Or perhaps just endanger one person, and weaken them for a while to save one person. Now in this hypothetical scenario utilitarianism would support requiring people to die, or people to be endangered to save others.

    Now how many people support this system? Yeah, no one (or maybe a tiny minority). Utilitarianism sounds cool, but no one really uses it in the real world.

    I don’t like utilitarianism, but I think you’re looking at it too narrowly. Utilitarians don’t hasten to advocate sacrifice; it’s just that it’s an option that may or may not promote utility. Most utilitarians share John Stuart Mill’s views on rights; a right should be granted if, in following it, happiness is maximized. That could be extended to sacrifice; even if it is initially a reasonable idea to sacrifice one for the sake of many, it might cause suffering because it involves violating a utilitarian right. I think the idea has quite a few pitfalls, but I’m just saying that utilitarianism is more complex than it seems.

  46. Now in this hypothetical scenario utilitarianism would support requiring people to die, or people to be endangered to save others.

    Now how many people support this system? Yeah, no one (or maybe a tiny minority). Utilitarianism sounds cool, but no one really uses it in the real world.

    People support this system and sacrifice themselves for others all the time. Look at the history of social/political movements.

  47. Don’t say it! Already I hear the flapping of Dr. Amy’s wings…

    LOL, EG, but what about the baybees!

  48. I’m another one who has problems with the thinly-veiled Spencerian / Social Darwinist attitudes espoused by some of the posters on this thread when it comes to things like health and medical care. And the problems I have are the same ones I have with the attitudes towards welfare and other social assistance benefits espoused by the likes of neo-cons and libertarians; mainly the idea of the “deserving” and “undeserving” non-privileged or disadvantaged. Yeah, in theory I can buy into the idea that some people (very few mind you) don’t really need help or assistance and therefore might be what you’d consider “undeserving”. But the reality is that most cases of those who appear to be undeserving on a superficial level ie; unmotivated, irresponsible, careless are actually far more deserving if one honestly looks at their life circumstances, histories both at the micro and macro level and other factors and takes these into considerations. People’s life situations are very complex and composed by many variables that a lot of people just don’t understand or appreciate. Unfortunately for those who buy into the myth of scarcity, the simplistic notion we collectively have of what’s “undeserving” works too well for their purposes that it would make little sense in their eyes to abandon it. Yet another reason why inequality and injustice persists.

  49. The number of people here willing to weigh in on “my” side of the consequences debate was more than I expected. Guess you learn something new every day. When I said harming themselves though, I was not referring to self harm. I was referring to stuff like having bottle rocket fights.

    More interesting topic:

    Janitors.

    If we allow for true equality of opportunity that means no more exploiting the lower SES for nasty jobs like cleaning poopy toilets.

    Equality of opportunity would alter our cultural standards. If you could do something interesting like pursue your goal of being a musician and you had a right to food, who would be cleaning poopy toilets and erasing the 37 penises drawn on the wall of the community college toilets every week. And yes, 37 is a real number from a school I was at for a while.

    Who is going to work in fast food service, cleaning services, and so forth? How many people do you know that would do that if they had a choice?

  50. Matt @52

    Maybe it’s just me, but I can can’t help but smell more than a whiff of classism in your post. I imagine there would still be plenty of people in food, cleaning and other service jobs, which you seem to imply are menial or unimportant. And if you think that’s the case, then try this as a thought experiment – a world where no one did those jobs. I sure as hell can’t. Even in the most ideal of settings where equality for all isn’t just a pipe dream, you’re always going to get people with differing abilities and aspirations – and that besides the fact that these service jobs you seem to hold in low regard have to be filled by someone – you totally fail to acknowledge that even in these jobs there’s usually the chance for upward mobility (assuming that in said ideal world there are no glass ceilings or other barriers).

    Your whole argument seems to be based on the idea that equality of opportunity means everyone would choose more or the less the same means of acheiving their aspirations and that’s just silly.

  51. @Matt,

    Your argument implies that the value of a job, like cleaning a toilet, is reflected in its current market value. But our current economic system allows us to use “status” to relegate people to unpleasant and low paying jobs. One could imagine where no such economic coercion existed, people who do unpleasant jobs would receive alternative compensation – like for example more resources or more leisure. Actually, the idea isn’t that far from practical reality. Mr. Kristen and I are of equal status in our household. We have a number of chores that need to be accomplished including some that are pleasant and some that are unpleasant. We’ve negotiated between ourselves what we both believe is a fair division of labor. He cleans the toilets and I pick up the dog poop. Dog poop is clearly more time consuming, but I find toilets gross. But without underlying inequality, there is no stigma attached to toilets or dog poop. Of course the negotiations in a complex society would be infinitely more difficult, but in principle even if we used a market mechanism to resolve the ordering problem janitors and fast food workers should not be absent from the Earth.

  52. I feel like we had this exact same discussion before, I clearly recall that extra bonuses argument in a post of yours.

    I have a few lower level comments on it. You pick up the dog poop of your dogs, and clean your toilets. Which is slightly different.

    I suppose we could require that everyone clean up their own waste if possible.

    Higher level comments aren’t really useful, this is far too abstract for that.

  53. You could argue for classism I suppose. But I have never seen someone aspire to food service or waste cleaning. At best people do it to pay the bills.

    Indeed said jobs must be filled by someone, that was my point.

    I don’t assume that all people would follow the same path in an EoO society. I do think that manning the register at a fast food restaurant doesn’t qualify as an aspiration.

    People typically have a hierarchy of goals. You have your ideal job, jobs you would really like, jobs you would be okay with, jobs you would settle for, and jobs you would do if you had no other way to pay the bills. I suppose you also have jobs that are stepping stones in a career.

    These jobs are somewhat decided based on expectations. Being a home depot manager seems significant to some and menial to others. If you raise people’s level of opportunity you shift the curve higher.

    I suppose my point may have been better made abstractly, about shifting the expectation curve rather than listing specific jobs. My bad.

  54. Only a society that is completely lethargic and detached from reality would fail to realize that “dirty work” must be done for the sake of society. Even if it’s not done out of aspiration, people will still recognize the importance of getting it done.

  55. But aren’t our job aspirations linked to the status/wealth they provide? I personally enjoy my job, but I don’t think there is any job or career I “aspire” to. I like to work. I like being “productive” even with my leisure. But if you said to me: Kristen you may have any career in the world and you will always have this basic basket of goods to fall back upon, what do you want to do? I’d probably wouldn’t distinguish between driving a tractor and negotiating an agreement (both of which I’ve done).

  56. But if you said to me: Kristen you may have any career in the world and you will always have this basic basket of goods to fall back upon, what do you want to do? I’d probably wouldn’t distinguish between driving a tractor and negotiating an agreement (both of which I’ve done).

    I think I would, but it would be the idiosyncratic way in which I decide what activities to do now.

  57. But aren’t our job aspirations linked to the status/wealth they provide?

    No, not for all of us, If I were a trust fund kid I’d be doing what I do now for free (or basically at cost) and just only take the jobs I want, it just so happens to be something that makes good money and will for a long time.

  58. Consider the case of the degenerate gambler who foolishly gambles away everything. Should society let him starve to death?

    IMHO? yes, I mean don’t get me wrong, I would offer to help who ever it was if I saw them suffering but that’s a personal decision. I wouldn’t hold society responsible for not obligating itself to helping them.

  59. But aren’t our job aspirations linked to the status/wealth they provide?

    Speaking for myself, the answer to this would be both yes and no.

    In terms of status, my long term career aspirations are based on a combination of what I know my strengths and abilities are, my values and belief system, and how I’d like to be seen by others in my lifetime and even after it. So I guess, that’s status in a sense. But it probably wouldn’t fit either the standard definition of it, or the culturally accepted one either.

    Wealth? That’s always been a secondary consideration for me, but it’s never been paramount. And even if it were, it wouldn’t be realistic or practical given how my privilege and perhaps more significantly lack of it have factored in to where I am in my life today and what I can reasonably expect in the future. To give you an example, at one point in my life I wanted to achieve a PhD in psychology. That would’ve allowed me to realize most if not all of my aspirations. Unfortunately my physical and cognitive and disabilities as well as mental health issues make this unlikely for me. (To get even a BA in psychology requires successful completion of stats courses and because of my learning difficulties, I barely completed the level of math required to graduate high school!)

    So the bottom line is that I’ve settled on a career aspiration that allows in part for me to realize my aspirations and achieve my desired status, and whatever part of those remain unfulfilled I’ll just have to do through other means. In my case that most likely means writing and volunteer activism.

  60. Objective right and wrong? As in, a right and wrong floating around in space free of human beings and our values? No, I don’t believe in that either. I decide what I consider right and wrong based on my values and what matters to me.

    I don’t believe in imposing my views of right and wrong on others either. For example, to me, something cant be “inherently” racist, because calling something racist is an opinion, and there is no such thing as an “objective” opinion.

  61. Sorry if this is a bit of a derail, but I couldn’t let this one pass without comment:

    For example, to me, something cant be “inherently” racist, because calling something racist is an opinion, and there is no such thing as an “objective” opinion.

    Actually, you’re wrong. Racism can be objectively defined. There doesn’t need to be any kind of ‘consensus’ about it before it can be called racist.

    In fact Melissa McEwan over at Shakesville has written a good piece on this. She was writing about sexism but it could apply equally well to racism.

  62. You can identify racism without looking at it from a objective moral perspective. If I hear, say, a white person insult a black person because of the latter’s race, I can say that this is racist without invoking an objective moral judgment, because one person is undeniably displaying contempt for another person’s race.

  63. there is no such thing as an “objective” opinion.

    If that were true, then nothing you believe would be objectively true.

    An opinion can be objective if it is based on facts.

  64. I wouldn’t hold society responsible for not obligating itself to helping them.

    I would. If society is not there to help members who need it, why should we bother with it at all?

  65. People support this system and sacrifice themselves for others all the time. Look at the history of social/political movements.

    Not really. We don’t cut people up for organs, or force them to give up half a liver.

  66. I didn’t say we did. I said that people sacrifice themselves all the time. It’s not as unheard of as you think.

  67. Now how many people support this system? Yeah, no one (or maybe a tiny minority). Utilitarianism sounds cool, but no one really uses it in the real world.

    Just a note that utilitarianism is used in the real world in triage. It has direct practical use. No, that doesn’t mean it necessarily can be applied to other situations, but saying that it is completely unused in the real world is wrong.

  68. Oh, and by self-harm, I’m referring to doing reckless things like overdosing on drugs and so on. I’m not talking about the people who harm themselves due to psychological problems (e.g. people who cut themselves to cope with depression) and whatnot.

    Because no one ever uses drugs to, I dunno, self-medicate for mental illnesses or whatever.

    Wait: False binary is false.

  69. Actually, you’re wrong. Racism can be objectively defined. There doesn’t need to be any kind of ‘consensus’ about it before it can be called racist.

    Yes I know you believe that, and I agree to disagree.

    In fact Melissa McEwan over at Shakesville has written a good piece on this. She was writing about sexism but it could apply equally well to racism.

    Yes I know, I disagree with a lot of her stuff too, on many topics in fact.

    You can identify racism without looking at it from a objective moral perspective. If I hear, say, a white person insult a black person because of the latter’s race, I can say that this is racist without invoking an objective moral judgment, because one person is undeniably displaying contempt for another person’s race.

    This assumes you KNOW what’s being said was an insult as apposed to a joke or some other linguistic context. And seeing as how it was directed at somebody ELSE, it seems a bit arrogant to assume you know the absolute context of what was said enough to judge it for others, but again, that’s just my take.

    If that were true, then nothing you believe would be objectively true.

    That’s true, nothing I believe IS objectively true, only what I can prove is objectively true.

    An opinion can be objective if it is based on facts.

    No, at the point something can be proven it becomes a fact and facts are objective, an opinion based on facts is a deduction and those get proven wrong all the time.

    I would. If society is not there to help members who need it, why should we bother with it at all?

    because it attempts to provide truly neutral ground, which I would argue is the true purpose of society, to provide a neutral environment within which as many people as possible can function, but I already know we disagree on that, that’s why I said so earlier.

    just wait til unacomplished discovers nietzsche.

    Implying I don’t already know who that is or where the concept of moral nihilism came from?

  70. This assumes you KNOW what’s being said was an insult as apposed to a joke or some other linguistic context.

    Right, because intent is always magic.

  71. dean spade doesn’t directly speak to equal opportunity philosophy, but speaks to the same tenants underlying that philosophy. he calls the level playing field sought by equal opportunists as “equal life chances.” just another way for folks to frame this.

  72. . For example, to me, something cant be “inherently” racist, because calling something racist is an opinion, and there is no such thing as an “objective” opinion.

    No. Just…no. Do not butcher skepticism to deny racism. That’s not how skepticism works. That we cannot be certain of any objective *T*ruth does not mean that we deny people’s experiences. I did a series on truth and skepticism in the context of social justice last year that has some decent links.

  73. You can identify racism without looking at it from a objective moral perspective. If I hear, say, a white person insult a black person because of the latter’s race, I can say that this is racist without invoking an objective moral judgment, because one person is undeniably displaying contempt for another person’s race.

    This assumes you KNOW what’s being said was an insult as apposed to a joke or some other linguistic context. And seeing as how it was directed at somebody ELSE, it seems a bit arrogant to assume you know the absolute context of what was said enough to judge it for others, but again, that’s just my take.

    Um, the way I described the example implies that I know that it’s an insult. I didn’t say that the white person said something that sounded like an insult; I implied that it was an insult, regardless of whether I heard it. And like Angel H. suggested, intent is not always magic.

  74. No, at the point something can be proven it becomes a fact and facts are objective, an opinion based on facts is a deduction and those get proven wrong all the time.

    All I was saying is that some opinions based on facts can be correct and hence objective. I phrased my point poorly.

  75. Right, because intent is always magic.

    No, it can however only be judged subjectively.

    Um, the way I described the example implies that I know that it’s an insult.

    I know what you said, I’m saying you CAN’T know that. Judging why somebody said something is a deduction, it will may be based on facts but what ever conclusion you come to when deciding if what you herd was offensive of not will still ultimately be an opinion. (again, IMHO)

    No. Just…no. Do not butcher skepticism to deny racism. That’s not how skepticism works. That we cannot be certain of any objective *T*ruth does not mean that we deny people’s experiences.

    That’s not what I said, what I said was peoples experiences only exist in a subjective state. Just because you saw something doesn’t mean you saw what you think you saw etc.

  76. It’s not intention that makes something racist, it’s EFFECTS.

    Effects are observable.

    That our social & economic and judicial process are racist in EFFECT is not up for debate.

  77. (P.S., Kristen, I just wanted to say that I am reading along with and enjoying all your posts – just too brain-blown with meta-thoughts of my own to actually contribute to the conversation any.)

  78. I know what you said, I’m saying you CAN’T know that. Judging why somebody said something is a deduction, it will may be based on facts but what ever conclusion you come to when deciding if what you herd was offensive of not will still ultimately be an opinion. (again, IMHO)

    Forget about whether I have heard it. Let’s just say that it happens to be that someone has said that they believe that all Hispanic people are unclean and so reprehensible. This is an expression of antipathy towards another race – in other words, racism. And it does happen in real life.

    Also, keep in mind the word “expression.” An expression isn’t necessarily defined by its typical motivation. That’s essentially what Angel H. is trying to say.

  79. @unacomplished,

    That is one step in a line of thinking that leads to valuing experience not devaluing it. If all experience is subjective, then there is no knowable truth (skip a little), therefore the best metric by which we judge the appropriate actions is by evaluating our actions in light of how we and others experience them subjectively.

  80. therefore the best metric by which we judge the appropriate actions is by evaluating our actions in light of how we and others experience them subjectively.

    I suppose this would be why we think much worse of people who actively, knowingly do something they agree is wrong, compared to how we think of people who at least stick to their own morals (despite it having a bad effect)? At least, many people I know hate hypocrisy on top of cruelty (see: the actions of every American conservative.)

  81. It’s not intention that makes something racist, it’s EFFECTS.

    and those EFFECTS are experienced subjectively, thus making the definition of racism (or sexism or all the other isms) subjective.

    That our social & economic and judicial process are racist in EFFECT is not up for debate.

    I would argue that it is under constant debate, because the effect changes every time a different person looks at it, so it’s definition is in a constant state of flux.

    Forget about whether I have heard it. Let’s just say that it happens to be that someone has said that they believe that all Hispanic people are unclean and so reprehensible. This is an expression of antipathy towards another race – in other words, racism.

    Yes, because cleanliness is something we can measure, thus we can prove that as false, but if somebody wants to call all Hispanic people “reprehensible” just because then that is their opinion and their opinion only becomes racist when somebody else observes it.

    That is one step in a line of thinking that leads to valuing experience not devaluing it. If all experience is subjective, then there is no knowable truth (skip a little), therefore the best metric by which we judge the appropriate actions is by evaluating our actions in light of how we and others experience them subjectively.

    I would actually agree with that conclusion, the important thing is how we act on that idea in our law and social policy. This is why I say the relative context of each social encounter is key, because I’m totally for the separation of private vs public spaces and letting the experiences of people within those spaces dictate what is and or isn’t oppressive speech.

    I’m totally NOT for the idea where people from outside my private space feel entitled to dictate what defines oppressive speech in MY private space.

    I suppose this would be why we think much worse of people who actively, knowingly do something they agree is wrong, compared to how we think of people who at least stick to their own morals (despite it having a bad effect)?

    People who don’t agree with you that something is wrong don’t think the effect is bad, because “bad” and “good” effects are relative. IMHO if you cant agree to disagree with somebody who sicks to their morals but shares DIFFERENT moral values than you, you probably aren’t a very tolerant person.

  82. ‘Agreeing to disagree’ sounds nice enough, often. But holding it as the only way of viewing the world?

    Being able to ‘agree to disagree’ requires privilege in the area being contested. I don’t ‘agree to disagree’ with people who attack my mental health. I don’t ‘agree to disagree’ with people who attack my gender or sexuality.

  83. Yes, because cleanliness is something we can measure, thus we can prove that as false, but if somebody wants to call all Hispanic people “reprehensible” just because then that is their opinion and their opinion only becomes racist when somebody else observes it.

    …All I was doing was giving you an example of antipathy towards someone because of their race. I have no idea why you delved that deep into my example.

  84. Yeahno, unaccomplished:

    – POC less likely to be hired
    – POC consistently have lower income for the same occupations & qualifications when they are hired
    – POC disproportionately hired into lower pay grade jobs, disproportionately represented in management and professional careers
    – higher incarceration rates and harsher sentences for the same crimes for POC
    – 87% of the people trapped by NYCs “Stop & Search” policy are POC
    – disproportionate #s of state police tickets and arrests POC
    – higher maternal and infant mortality rates for WOC
    – shorter lifespans, less aggressive medical treatment, earlier mortality and higher morbidity from common diseases for POC

    et cetera, ad nauseum.

    These are trends that have persisted over decades (centuries even). These findings are consistently replicated. They occur across municipalities, across countries. These are the effects of systemic racism.

    Fuck off with your relative subjectivity. Fuck off with YOUR racism.

  85. @irishup
    Nobody is denying all of those things are indicators of systemic racism, but those facts in and of themselves are not “inherently racist”, they simply indicate the existence of systemic racism. That’s not the same thing as BEING “inherently racist”

    Fuck off with your relative subjectivity.

    As I said, ill agree to disagree with most of you, also what did I say that made me racist?

    …All I was doing was giving you an example of antipathy towards someone because of their race.

    I don’t see anything wrong with antipathy for any reason including race, just discrimination. I really don’t mind if somebody wants to hate me for being black; as long as they don’t prevent me from doing anything in a public space, I wouldn’t think of them as a “bad person”, just a person with a vastly different viewpoint than me.

    Being able to ‘agree to disagree’ requires privilege in the area being contested. I don’t ‘agree to disagree’ with people who attack my mental health. I don’t ‘agree to disagree’ with people who attack my gender or sexuality.

    I didn’t say you shouldn’t defend yourself against attacks, what I said was what constitutes an attack changes with context. Somebody practicing shooting a picture of my face in their back yard with some friends is not the same thing as shooting me. (again, IMHO)

  86. unaccomplished, I’ve misinterpreted what you were saying in your response here “I would argue that it is under constant debate, because the effect changes every time a different person looks at it, so it’s definition is in a constant state of flux.”

    That one *can* endlessly debate systemic racism and misogyny, global climate change, heliocentrism, &etc, doesn’t give the debate any useful meaning. I say fuck off with your racism b/c while you’re busy making distinctions without differences about “whether”, the exploitation and suffering of many to benefit the few continues. The EFFECTS of oppressive systems remain.

    If you find the current situation tolerable, if it does NOT fill you with outrage, it’s not so much that we disagree as that we occupy different moral universes. I am profoundly uninterested in and unmoved by Everything is Contingent analyses. So, “the map is not the territory”? Nifty.

    *My* basic premise is that we occupy a knowable universe, and that our senses – perceptions, proprioceptions, interoceptions – and cognitions are sufficient to this purpose. They form the only reality that has meaning for us. The map IS the territory.

    With my big, hominid, pattern recognizing brain, I notice systemic inequalities. I notice that there are enough other humans whose realities map to mine that my cognitions pass the Reality Check test. Even those who disagree with me, are doing so in patterns that fit within the map from which I am navigating. There is enough common territory in our respective maps to proceed.

    ****************
    KristenJ, I really want to thank you for these posts (and the one to come next!). It’s lead to some very productive ruminations. I have learned a lot from the conversation thus far.

    My big sticking point is “equality and justice” towards what ends? Currently, a lot of the discussion is framed in a way that presumes a society/world where the goal is to Accumulate Many Stuffs! (Or at least, that’s how I’m reading it.) And we act as if that’s just what humans *naturally do*, but is that really true? It’s certainly what people living in Capitalist systems and in Nation-States do, but that doesn’t make it intrinsic to h. sapiens.

    The evidence is mounting that this kind of goal is unsustainable. So, I’m trying to think about what a post-apocolypse-we’ve-learned-all-our-lessons-won’t-get-fooled-again Utopia would look like.

  87. That one *can* endlessly debate systemic racism and misogyny, global climate change, heliocentrism, &etc, doesn’t give the debate any useful meaning.

    I would say the debate continually offers useful meaning, yes means yes came from no means no through debate, feminism became far more trans and people of color inclusive through debate, the ways in which we understand global climate change continue to evolve.

    I say fuck off with your racism b/c while you’re busy making distinctions without differences about “whether”, the exploitation and suffering of many to benefit the few continues. The EFFECTS of oppressive systems remain.

    Since when did I say everybody has to stop acting while the debate continues? A doctor in the ER does not hesitate to treat the ailment they see with extreme prejudice because time lost can be lives lost, but that doesn’t mean they don’t keep the patient under observation afterwards because SOME times the person you gave Penicillin in order to treat their stomach ulcers is allergic to the stuff and you can only switch to alternative treatments if you haven’t killed them faster with your treatment.

    social justice is constantly applying new strategies to our world in order to treat problems, deciding it is “not useful” to continually measure those experiments to ensure they don’t hurt people in turn seems arrogantly negligent to me, but again that is only my opinion.

    If you find the current situation tolerable, if it does NOT fill you with outrage, it’s not so much that we disagree as that we occupy different moral universes.

    Wanting to debate weather or not chemo is the best option is not saying “I don’t believe the cancer exists” <_<

    *My* basic premise is that we occupy a knowable universe, and that our senses – perceptions, proprioceptions, interoceptions – and cognitions are sufficient to this purpose. They form the only reality that has meaning for us. The map IS the territory.

    I understand, I on the other hand do NOT believe we occupy a knowable universe and therefor think we should hope that the map is indeed the territory but continually prepare and check for the possibility that it isn’t.

    With my big, hominid, pattern recognizing brain, I notice systemic inequalities. I notice that there are enough other humans whose realities map to mine that my cognitions pass the Reality Check test. Even those who disagree with me, are doing so in patterns that fit within the map from which I am navigating. There is enough common territory in our respective maps to proceed.

    As somebody else with a “big, hominid, pattern recognizing brain” I can only offer the observation that there are areas of your map that appear very alien to me, you can simply discount my map as faulty and dismiss it or you can take it into account with other people’s maps and continually check to see if some of the anomalies persist.

    Obviously I take the latter option but if you don’t then I’m not telling you isn’t real and you should stop fighting it, I’m simply saying I disagree with your approach.

  88. @irishup

    I think equality and justice are their own ends. If society is equal and just then I’m relatively agnostic to its other aims although I agree with you that we have address sustainability.

    Personally, I do think that human nature has a tendancy towards competitive resource accumulation. But I also think that human nature is pretty flexible, so that if we weren’t faced with less prominent scarcity (i.e., no fear that we’ll really be without the necessities) we might change.

    Still I know not everyone agrees that we tend toward accumulating stuff, and its really a pretty enormous assumption. I hope my analysis doesn’t rely on that perspective. I’ve tried not to, but I hope if I do you’ll point it out!

    [Ed for grammar]

  89. Personally, I do think that human nature has a tendancy towards competitive resource accumulation. But I also think that human nature is pretty flexible, so that if we weren’t faced with less prominent scarcity (i.e., no fear that we’ll really be without the necessities) we might change.

    I think that could be true, but it’s important to realize that, as Max Stirner said, cooperation is a lot more egoistic than it seems. Cooperation is often painted as altruistic as opposed to competition, which is painted as egoistic, but in reality, cooperation is both altruistic and egoistic. Therefore, a society based on equality and cooperation would work pretty well since not only are people capable of being genuinely altruistic, but it’s also in everyone’s interest to cooperate. I think that this is true even if you disregard the fact that cooperation has conduced to the survival of the human race.

  90. This reads like a technical text, but it does not define equal opportunity. What is meant by that? Equal opportunity when it comes to getting an education and building a career? To get that public schools would have to improve to the point that private schools can not provide a better learning environment. I would say Germany is pretty close to that, where even going to an university costs little money.

    Most other countries would have to divert vast resources into the education system to provide equal opportunity for everybody.

  91. @Mike,

    Equal opportunity is defined as:

    equal opportunity is the idea that we should equalize everything but “preferences.”

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