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Women and Emotional Vulnerability

TRIGGER WARNING: A jackass in the comments section brings up date rape in an extremely uncouth and tasteless manner.

Tonight I’m writing about something inspired by a conversation I had with someone I work with.

He’s the type of straight man who is sensitive and in touch with his emotions. He’s the type of straight man that translates book reviews on the Arab queer community. He’s the type of straight man who wants to be called out on male privilege. He’s the type of straight man who won’t freak out if you do. He’s a good man.

So, I make jokes where I tell him to let women send their own e-mails and get their own notepads.

Tonight we were walking to an event—mostly so that he could smoke profusely—and started talking seriously about gender.

“I’m surrounded with several strong, independent women,” he told me. “But sometimes it seems like they’re adopting unflattering traditionally more masculine characteristics—like emotional distance, and refusing care from someone else.”

I tried to explain that for women, it can feel impossible to admit that you are stressed, overworked, or taking on too much—as we try to compete in what is so obviously a man’s world, we strive to be as close to invincible as humanly possible.

Of course, I was fumbling for words and in a state of end-of-the-day delirium. In a subject so tense—and fraught with my own emotional vulnerability—it’s difficult to find the perfect language to eloquently convey something so knit into daily life, much less find the reasons for why things are the way they are. Also, I make much more sense when I write than when I speak—so while our conversation was lovely, I chose to come home, drink cheap wine and listen to Ani Difranco circa the 90’s to start figuring out all of my (super womanly) feelings about this subject.

(Whoever called out that I was listening to “Talk to Me Now” has me completely pegged)

But as women, I feel that we fear that showing that we are emotionally vulnerable could make us seem weak. It makes us seem like our emotions will take over our work, and we wont be able to function while drowning in a sea of our own overanalyzed emotions—whether they are sadness, anger or annoyance. It’s too dangerous to risk it. Even though plenty of men experience depression, alcoholism and other health conditions and diseases that interfere with their work and are deeply rooted in their psyche, this will never be attributed to their gender. We seem slightly upset, and the looming possibility of our period or ever presences of our maternal instincts creates an automatic divide.

After all, there doesn’t seem to be an equivalent literary trope about male psychosis—even though plenty of men display enough characteristics of it that there probably should be. Even if there was equality in literary trope, female characters would probably be taken care of, or lamented for not having care, while male characters would be forced to navigate it alone.

Outside of literature, we have to resist the multiple forces that are trying through whatever means possible to reduce us to sex objects or baby machines. Many times we are taught to care about, and attend to others before attending to ourselves or acknowledging that we need care.

I am sure you have all heard of the constant media message that there is no way any of us can possibly, “have it all.” When I hear this, I find myself becoming defiant and trying as much as humanly possible to constantly prove these messages wrong. But can’t we redefine what it means to “have it all” according to what we actually need and find relevant to our lives?

As a result of being on this constant treadmill of achievement, proving capability if we it becomes too hard to prove equality, we often navigate the world with an aggressive competitiveness. Showing or voicing that we need care—even if it is the platonic loving support of a friend—chips away at our independence. If that friend is a man or a male lover, it can feel like a complete submission to patriarchy.

I write all of this partially in response to the questions he brought up, and partially as a critique of myself—I know that I am one of the independent, workaholic women with a sometimes unflatteringly traditionally masculine handling of my own emotions. I can publicly express that I am pissed off—but sadness, discontent and confusion are emotions that I rarely explore myself, lest they absorb value time in “proving myself to the world.”

I know these qualities are unflattering—or perhaps unproductive and unhealthy are better words, but like many things, there are structural and cultural reasons why I navigate the world this way—and why I am not alone. It’s not to say that I am an emotionless stoic—I simply open up only those I trust, and only ask anything of them in dire instances. In most cases, I open up to women before men, close friends before love interests and even serious relationships.

It’s even a little bit terrifying to blog about it right now. It feels…emotionally vulnerable. Did the patriarchy just win a little bit? (that is a joke)

Or am I taking it down a little bit by admitting this? (that is not a joke)

What does the sanctimonious women’s (gender) studies set of Feministe readers think? Is being emotionally guarded something traditionally masculine in the first place? Is it necessary to use it to patch over our emotional vulnerability to prove just how much we can take on the world by ourselves?

Is it something a little more about culture and a little less about gender? Or is it how our culture navigates what it has created as gender?

*Edited out jokes that might not translate as such, since I don’t wish to offend and chose to ask more questions. Oh, and named that Ani song.


140 thoughts on Women and Emotional Vulnerability

  1. unflattering masculine characteristics—like emotional distance, and refusing care from someone else

    I wouldn’t consider these characteristics necessarily masculine, nor unflattering. I think that’s kind of the same thing as equating ‘caring’ with ‘feminine’, or calling anger ‘unflattering’.

    I know sometimes I maintain emotional distance from people, and I refuse care from them, because I don’t want it. Just because someone considers themselves to be a good person and caring and feminist or whatever, they don’t get emotional intimacy from me unless *I* decide they can have that. And sometimes I just don’t want to. Regardless of what that other person is like. Because emotional intimacy with me, and help and care for me, are about *ME*.

  2. I know that I am one of the independent, workaholic women with a sometimes unflatteringly masculine handling of my own emotions. I can publicly express that I am pissed off—but sadness, discontent and confusion are emotions that I rarely explore myself,

    I’m independent generally try not to express to much emotion in any direction. I’m this way because in my experience I can’t count on people (so it’s better to be independent), and because I’ve had people close to me manipulate me (so it’s better not to show what bothers me, less I give anyone ammunition).

    Perhaps my other “feminine” traits are enough that they keep anyone from accusing me of being emotionally unfeminine… Only reserved (or as coming across as a “bitch” because I’m reserved)

    I’d never really equated emotional unavailability with masculinity before… Is this the norm? Or does is society’s perception of women’s emotional behavior colored by how well she performs femininity in other facets of her life?

    (And did you call your friend out for his belief that woman *should* take care of others and be emotionally available? Because while those are nice traits in anyone, it’s not his female coworkers’ jobs to care about him or be emotionally available to him.)

  3. What do I think? OK, immediate thought is “Oh fucking HELL no. No no no. No she did not just co-opt queer identities as descriptors to prove how totes awesome a straight man is”

    Second thought is “Not to mention the bloody gender essentialism”

    Really. REALLY? I mean WTF is a “butch-femme”? That’s like saying someone’s a shy-outgoing person, or a … I dunno, it’s so jarring I can’t even think of a comparison TBH. What are you even trying to say? Because if it’s:

    “My super-cool straight friend, who’s so uniquely accepting that gay stuff doesn’t make him throw up in his mouth, has qualities that gender-essentialists would ascribe to both male and female”

    then that’s a given though, isn’t it? Everybody has characteristics that are placed on an axis, nobody can truly be described as “100% masculine” or “100% feminine”, not least because it’s so subjective. Different cultures, nationalities and religions all have varying views on what is accepted and expected as ‘masculine’ and ‘feminine’.?

    Oh and “jokingly referred to as [a queer identity]” is. not cool. We’re not jokes, we’re not badges of cool that super-shiny straight self-appointed allies can pin
    to themselves.

    I don’t care who someone is, or what job they do that might involve the LGBT community, if they’re cis-straight then they are not part of the community, they’re part of the oppressive majority and have no right to weigh in on community politics.

    Likewise, no matter how sensitive, and cool, and amazing your friend is -he’s not exempt from being. part of the patriarchy. He has no right to expound on what women should be feeling, or how they’re relating to him. Maybe they just don’t want to talk to him, no matter how magic and unsexist he is, no matter how often he openly castigates himself for his male privilege. It’s that simple, no minority group is a sodding hivemind.

    I’m not even going to touch your internalised misogyny. I just cannot deal. You might want to check your cis privilege though, you’re soaking in it.

    This is disjointed as fuck, but idc, it’s 7am and I only got up for painkillers. Trying to distract and calm myself with the internet has failed. I’m now the wrong kind of distracted, and so not calm.

    Oh, and I’ll refute this before someone brings it up, no, it doesn’t matter if it’s an LGBT person who’s chosen to describe hir cis-straight friend using in-group or reclaimed labels.

    It’s still not cool, and smacks of things I’ve witnessed like “Mike’s so great. He likes women too, we’ve decided he’s an honourary dyke!”. Gross and wrong on several levels.

  4. inb4 flame war over previous post

    I don’t know. As a kid, I read something that people who are more androgynous are more well adjusted, because of the inherent damages that traditional gender roles inflict on people; being pretty middle-of-the-road gender wise (and having something of a gender-identity crisis in my teens), I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with polarizing any given thing as ‘masculine’ or ‘feminine’ until moral absolutes start coming up (good or evil, right or wrong, strong or weak, positive or negative, etc). I find it a lot more damaging when the idea comes up that “Male and Female are Opposite And Never The Two Shall Meet, except for sex, and the Female is not allowed to like it”.

    Rather, I think it’s okay for something to be masculine or to be feminine, as long as there’s no immediate stigma attached for NOT being one or the other. I have emotional blocks that could be described as masculine, but I also have some that could be described as feminine, and personally I take a certain amount of pride in that.

  5. “I’m surrounded with several strong, independent women,” he told me. “But sometimes it seems like they’re adopting unflattering masculine characteristics—like emotional distance, and refusing care from someone else.”

    The entire comment is based on gender essentialism because if your friend really wanted to complain about those traits, he would be complaining about them in men and women, and not just complaining about them in women. He’s only doing so because he expects a certain default for how women are to behave, some women in his life are stepping out that role, and it apparently upsets him enough to complain to you about it.

    Men have an unfortunate tendency to want and expect emotional warmth from women because that is what the patriarchy trains men to expect. We are told that women are supposed to be nice and pleasing and make us feel fuzzy inside, so if that doesn’t happen, alarm bells go off. ‘OMGZ this strong independent woman isn’t accepting my help and tender loving care.’ I wonder why that would be? It can’t have anything to do with the definition of being independent, could it? We wouldn’t even notice the same behavior in a man. We don’t even say ‘strong, independent men’ in that way. It’s just assumed that a man is supposed to be.

    Powerful men aren’t deemed lacking or ‘stoical’ if they don’t ‘show that they’re vulnerable’, show that they’re upset, show or voice that they ‘need care,’ or spend a lot of time wallowing in ‘sadness, discontent, and depresion.’ These are signs of weakness, not strength. And while we shouldn’t necessarily be afraid to show it, nor should we be afraid if we’re not showing it.

    Powerful men aren’t criticized for being defiant, being competitive, constantly achieving, proving capability, expressing anger. These aren’t considered ‘unflattering’ for them. They’re the exact descriptors of what makes a man powerful. But when women exhibit these traits? It’s ‘a juggle’, it becomes a competition ‘against ourselves’, it’s a ‘treadmill’, it’s just an attempt to ‘prov[e] someone else wrong’, it’s rooted in fear. (All your words) Bullshit- these are just rationalizations to cast the exact traits that are praised in strong men in a negative light when it comes to women.

    I don’t know how your friend meant the comment, but if he’s saying things like this, I strongly suggest he’s the one who needs more self-examination on this, not you. His comment is really a passive-aggressive way of defending the patriarchy by trying to get strong women to doubt themselves, particularly doubting whether you are performing femininity sufficiently for his happiness. And judging from this post, it looks like he’s succeeded.

  6. It’s not been my experience that any gender has a monopoly on being emotional. However, a lot of people say that a person is being “emotional” only when that person is expressing sadness, distress, fear, panic..things along those lines. However, it is no less emotional for a person to get angry and punch a wall than it is for a person to feel sad and cry.

    As for the “unflattering” part, I don’t really understand that. Unflattering how and to whom? Would it be more flattering if you were to sob every time you saw a cute little kitten? After all of the changes that any non-cis gender caucasian male has to make to even attempt to succeed in a patriarchal society, now you should further cater your emotions and emotional responses to suit whatever man you happen to be around at the time? Isn’t at least one of the points of feminism to NOT have to perpetually change yourself to seem more flattering to cis hetero men?

    To be fair, I’m a bit emotionally…different. There are a lot of things about most people’s emotions that I just don’t get. For me, it feels like most people let things bother them that should not really matter. It’s not that there aren’t things that matter very much to me it’s just that I only have so much energy to put into emotions, so I prioritize. Otherwise, I’d stay so stressed out that I’d be miserable and probably medicated. It takes conscious effort for some things and others things I just have no feelings about even if I want to. Maybe I’m emotionally defective, but I can’t imagine caring about or wanting to make my emotions/emotional responses more pleasing to others. The way I see it, I was with me when I took my first breath and I am the only one who will be with me constantly until my last breath. So, my opinion of me is the only one that truly matters. Everyone else can take or leave me as I am.

  7. I chose to come home, drink cheap wine and listen to Ani Difranco circa the 90’s to start figuring out all of my (super womanly) feelings about this subject.

    As women, I feel that we fear that showing that we are emotionally vulnerable makes us seem weak.

    Maybe you were listening to Ani’s “Talk to Me Now”?

    don’t you understand
    in the day to day
    and the face to face
    I have to act
    just as strong as I can
    just to preserve a place
    where I can be who I am

  8. It’s generally considered to be in bad faith to edit problematic language out of your posts without acknowledging that you did so.

  9. Despite the many edits it’s still cissexist and gender essentialist.

    Surely we shouldn’t have to point out the exact phrases that are so bothersome?

    This may seem unfair to you, like a trial by fire, but this is real 101 stuff.

    It can seem really tedious checking every word for something that could offend, but. that’s the burden of privilege. Recognise it, work on it, eventually it becomes second nature to automatically use inclusive language.

  10. I’m editing because I don’t want to offend–and I think one of the things I was wrestling with while writing this was gender essentialism. Would love to have things pointed out, as I am a cis-woman…

    Would appreciate to be able to ameliorate these things so that a discussion can ensue. I am new to this blogging/paying attention to comments thing…

  11. The way I see it, I was with me when I took my first breath and I am the only one who will be with me constantly until my last breath. So, my opinion of me is the only one that truly matters. Everyone else can take or leave me as I am.

    Holy hell. This. this. this.

    But this?:

    I’m surrounded with several strong, independent women,” he told me. “But sometimes it seems like they’re adopting unflattering traditionally more masculine characteristics—like emotional distance, and refusing care from someone else

    It’s nine kinds of wrong. The idea that these women are “adopting” masculine characteristics is super gender essentialist, even if you tack the word “traditionally” on to the front. Also, if he was really focusing on “I see my friends struggling and want to help” he would just offer help and then accept whatever answer he’s given. Instead, he decided to frame his own interpersonal difficulties as a Feminist problem, about Masculinity and Femininity.

    I see him appropriating feminist discourse in an attempt to influence the women around him into acting in a way that he finds more comfortable. I don’t think he’s participating in a conversation about “Gender” in good faith, but rather attempting to frame his specific problems in a discourse of universals.

  12. I am so impressed with your self-knowledge and emotional honesty. I wish I had realized what you already know at your age.

    I am a feminist crone, one week short of 67. Men’s and women’s inability to show vulnerability is equally destructive. I have always believed much violence stems from terror of one’s vulnerability.

    America is a fiercely individualistic country. It is in the interests of corporate capitalism for its citizens to turn to things they consume rather than people they trust to meet their needs.

    I have been a feminist for 60 years. Five younger brothers and Catholic schools raise one’s consciousness early. However, I was closer to my dad and friends with my brothers and the guys in our neighborhood. I talked myself into Fordham as a sophomore transfer the year they admitted women as freshman and was often the only girl in my class. I was male identified, desperately to hide my emotions and become a rational, unemotional male. I despised anyone who ever cried in public.

    I maintained the facade until I had my first child at 28, then I split apart. I needed a psychotic manic episode to be transformed into a loving mother. It was as if a guy had had a baby. I was unably to handle the tidal wave of love and protectiveness toward my daughter.

    That deformation of my character has haunted me ever since. It probably fueled the splitting into mania and depression that manifested itself for good when I was 40,

    I had the good fortunate of helping take care of my grandson for his first two years. In NYC playrooms and playgrounds, I saw how sexism almost immediately cripples little boys, forcing them to hide their emotions. Boys who cry get more opprobrium than aggressive little girls. I was told repeatedly that Michael was “all boy,” when he was simply “all his mother.”

    Human beings are interdependent. At the beginning and end of life, when they are sick and injured, they depend absolutely on others. We are all one car accident or serious illness away from dependence. Graciously allowing people to help you is courageous. The last years of my independent mom’s life were immeasurably more difficult for her 6 children, because she fiercely denied her declining ability and broke more bones than a high school football team.

    I feel sad when I see women voluntarily falling into the trap little boys are forced into, beginning in toddlerhood..

  13. I’m editing because I don’t want to offend

    If you edit problematic language due to a commenter expressing their problems with that language, but leave no record of either the language or the editing, then the commenter looks as though they are talking about something that isn’t there. Even though they were the one who had to deal with the language emotionally and mentally, they become the discredited and disjointed one from everyone else’s point of view.

    I say this because I was very confused while reading Partial Human’s comments because I could not find the things they were talking about in your post.

  14. “I’m surrounded with several strong, independent women,” he told me. “But sometimes it seems like they’re adopting unflattering traditionally more masculine characteristics—like emotional distance, and refusing care from someone else.”

    That is straight-up bullshit right there and would have been an excellent opportunity to call out your friend on his privilege, something he apparently welcomes. And I think what you said to him is only the very tip of the iceberg as far as what’s wrong with his statement. Among other things:

    1) Holy gender essentializing, Batman.

    2) He only knows “several” women who are strong and independent? I suspect that has less to do with how many weak or dependent women happen to be around him and more to do with the way in which he defines “strong, independent women.” I also suspect that he would never try to apply a similar descriptor to the men he knows, because it wouldn’t occur to him that men aren’t inherently strong or independent.

    3) The “unflattering” characteristics he mentions are women not wanting to let other people care for them and not wanting to share their emotions with other people. I think it is highly, highly likely that these women are not actually rejecting all close interpersonal relationships, but rather that they are being more selective in who they decide to get close to/allow to care for them than suits your friend’s tastes. And honestly, if I had to take a wild guess here, I would venture that your friend probably reached the view that these women had problems because they chose not to get close to him, specifically. Regardless, the “unflattering” characteristics your friend identified are directly related to women setting boundaries in their interpersonal relationships. Which isn’t particularly surprising, since women have historically–and still today–faced a million different pressures to override their own boundaries and make themselves available to any man who wants them in any way he wants them. If your friend finds women setting their own boundaries to be “unflattering”, then I’d suggest he spend less time getting in touch with his own emotions and more time learning to respect those of the people around him.

    If this conversation with your friend made you think about ways in which you avoid being emotionally vulnerable and whether that’s something you want to change (and I do agree that women are judged more for displaying emotion, and that not showing emotion can be a defense mechanism), that’s great. But I think it’s really, really interesting that when your friend served up a GIANT DOSE of feminism 101 fail in the guise of critiquing women like you, your reaction was not to tell him the million ways in which his basic premise was offensive and incorrect, but rather to basically agree that the behaviors he identified were negative in some way and then try to explore the good reasons women might have for engaging in them and whether or not you should try to curb those tendencies in yourself.

    I don’t mean that as judgment on you — there is a documented tendency among women to take criticism to heart more than men do and to be more self-critical than men are. But it’s fascinating to me when I see a really clear example of it at work. Do you think there’s even the tiniest chance that your friend spent as much time as you did contemplating this conversation after it ended? Because you have clearly done a lot of reflection on his (extremely fucked up) criticism of women, but I would guess he’s done none on how he might have been wrong or about how much privilege and gender essentialization he demonstrated when making that remark. And of the two of you, I think he’s the one who needs to spend more time thinking about the personal failings that conversation might have revealed.

  15. then that’s a given though, isn’t it? Everybody has characteristics that are placed on an axis, nobody can truly be described as “100% masculine” or “100% feminine”, not least because it’s so subjective. Different cultures, nationalities and religions all have varying views on what is accepted and expected as ‘masculine’ and ‘feminine’.?

    Thank you. I wish when discussing femininity or masculinity there would be more emphasis on the cultural aspects of what that actually means.

  16. First, I agree that although it might *seem* like a good idea to just remove the offending passages and move on, it’s a better idea and shows good faith to respond to the criticism, even if just to say ‘Oh, crap.. Sorry about that. Didn’t know/think/realize/check privilege. I’ll fix that.’

    Second,

    I don’t think men OR women are taken particularly seriously when they display emotion easily. Take it from someone who cries at the drop of a fucking hat (ie. ME). Emotion is not something inherently masculine or feminine.. it’s something we are socialized into and then discredited for. Women are praised for being nurturing and caring as though it’s something innate to women, rather than something that just happens to be socialized out of boys at an earlier age. However, as soon as we display the emotions that go hand in hand with nurturing and caring OUTSIDE of the context of caregiving, we are rash, histrionic, weepy, and incapable of rational thought.

    Meanwhile, men are so heavily socialized to NOT show emotion that it has almost come full circle.. they are praised when they do something like cry at a sad movie (as long as it’s the RIGHT kind of sad movie)… but again, in the wrong context, a man who shows emotion will be cut down as too girly, too feminine and thus too emotional.

    I’d like to see a stop to a few things: One, the idea of emotional women vs stoic men.. There are EMOTIONAL PEOPLE and NOT-SO-EMOTIONAL PEOPLE.

    Also, the idea that people who show emotion (especially criers, like myself) are irrational or unable to deal with conflict or whatever. I can be upset enough to cry but still be thinking completely rationally.

    People will AVOID you if you are too emotional. They will with-hold information from you to avoid making you cry. I have had to tell people that even if I am crying, I am not devastated, or on the verge of a breakdown. It just means I am angry, or frustrated, or sad or scared.

    In a few cases I have told people that perhaps their inability to deal with my emotions is a problem they have (not being able to deal with emotions) rather than a problem I have.

    Sorry, end rant.

  17. I don’t think men OR women are taken particularly seriously when they display emotion easily.

    I think that this can only seem true because we’re socialized into thinking that “emotion” means “weakness,” “vulnerability,” and “what women display.” Men display emotion all the time and get taken seriously–the emotion in question is anger. Men display it, they make a big deal out of it, and they get taken seriously about it.

  18. Men display emotion all the time and get taken seriously–the emotion in question is anger. Men display it, they make a big deal out of it, and they get taken seriously about it.

    Don’t forget though.. if they are going to display anger, they have to display it in a properly manly-man way — through punching walls and yelling, or brooding quietly. No tears of anger allowed.

  19. I have succumbed to the temptation to edit posts as a reaction to critical comments I agree with. But it tends to discredit comments that were helpful.

    All babies are emotional. Men tend to be socialized to express emotions through anger. Because I grew up with men, I tend to do the same thing. As one of my brother’s told me, “you need crying lessons.”

  20. I think that this can only seem true because we’re socialized into thinking that “emotion” means “weakness,” “vulnerability,” and “what women display.” Men display emotion all the time and get taken seriously–the emotion in question is anger. Men display it, they make a big deal out of it, and they get taken seriously about it.

    ITA

    To expand on this, I think that US culture codes most emotionality as feminine and thus a personal weakness. Women are still generally expected to be emotional but then considered the weaker of the two sexes as a result. I think EG’s point about men and anger is also spot on, anger is often viewed as a masculine thing and therefore not discouraged in men, but discouraged in women, who are labeled as bitchy or even crazy when they exhibit any sort of anger.

    I personally think what needs to happen is that we as a culture need to stop coding any emotional displays as feminine or masculine. They just are what they are, and they don’t necessarily reveal anything about one’s personal or moral failing to experience them or let others see them. I also think there is an ongoing discussion that needs to be had regarding expectations that women adopt what the culture holds up as traditionally masculine behaviors in order to be accepted into and become successful in the professional world.

  21. I think that this can only seem true because we’re socialized into thinking that “emotion” means “weakness,” “vulnerability,” and “what women display.” Men display emotion all the time and get taken seriously–the emotion in question is anger. Men display it, they make a big deal out of it, and they get taken seriously about it.

    I would hardly call getting locked up, being called a child, or having people reject and fear you “getting taken seriously”

  22. Cassandra Woolf, @11

    It was as if a guy had had a baby.

    Guys can have babies and be loving, protective parents.

  23. Megan, @18, I realized that I expressed myself badly. I am talking about 1973. I love to see men take care of babies and toddlers and feel strongly about both men and women sharing equally in child care.

    There was a fascinating book called The Mermaid and the Minotaur by Dinnerstein. She argued that we will only triumph over the patriarchy when men and women share equally in caring for young children. Otherwise both sexes will identify women with the all giving and all denying figure of early childhood.

    My daughters had male nursery school teachers and grade school teachers in the 70s and 80s. None of my grandchildren do..

  24. Thanks for writing, Anna. I can relate to the latter parts of the article, particularly the parts about not opening up to people. I am also told that I have a hard time asking for help.

    If I understand what you’re writing, it sounds like you’re finding yourself questioning the way you handle opening up to people. Sometimes it comes from others, sometimes it can be from inside yourself, but you find yourself asking “am I doing emotions wrong?”

    in my case, I end up feeling torn between what feels like my natural way of handling things and the messages I get from the outside world about what is and isn’t the right way of doing it.

    I don’t know if I have any answers, but I appreciate that I’m not the only one asking those questions. I can’t answer if you’re taking down the patriarchy by writing it or not, but for what it’s worth, I think being able to put your fears up honestly on the internet says good things about you.

  25. So a straight man says he hates it when women act “unflatteringly” (seriously, what does that mean? unattractively? now we know what he thinks is important) like men.

    Color me surprised.

  26. the impression I get is that we as a culture (at least here in the uk) are quite allergic to any big showings of emotion of whatever kind because its not considered decourumous or in keeping with good taste… maybe there’s a gendered side to that because women are more prone to emotions (at least of the sad variety) so they are more negatively affected by these rules.

    However I would disagree with what some people here have said about men being respected for having anger emotion… I find this just isn’t the case. Most people I know men included get very uneasy when other guys are getting overly angry. when men are getting angry in my experience there’s like a horrible nervousness like fuck whats he gonna do, get the children out of here. At least where im from men’s anger doesn’t get celebrated it usually winds them up in prison or a social worker is round to visit. and women’s anger just gets laughed at.

    also no offence but i think its a bit of a dickish thing to say that the way women are behaving is ‘unflattering’. I mean if he’s so politically aware as you say then he should probably be aware of the more complex ways women have to present themselves these days so we can get taken seriously but also not just come across as imitation men. do we also need to consider what ‘butch-fem’ guy or whatever finds flattering and unflattering?

  27. I really need to support Partial Human in this, and I’m reading all of this after the edits. I wasn’t sure if I was going to continue reading this after the “My straight, male friend is totally cool because he does all these things that aren’t associated with masculinity, and we all know masculine = straight for male-bodied individuals, etc.” Especially when it ends with, ‘He’s a good man.’

    No. He’s a good human being.

  28. Jesus wept.

    I edited out jokes

    Jokes are funny. Jokes have punchlines. You were gushing about your male friend that’s like… so awesome, and sensitive, and votes aware of his many privileges that he is:

    referred to as a butch-femme straight guy

    Own your privilege.

    Now, as you apparently need to be bloody spoon-fed, here’s the 19fucking50s level gender essentialism and :ciscentrism:

    We seem slightly upset, and the looming possibility of our period or ever presences of our maternal instincts creates an automatic divide.

    Come ON. Guest blogger season is, I’m convinced, FNTT writ large.

    “We” do not spend our lives being flustered about our menses and watchidg the hands of our biological clocks.

    Some of. us are destroyed by our periods, some don’t have them, others do not give the slightest fuck. Some women (are you sitting down?) do not have a uterus. Some men do, and like my first group of women, are troubled and dysphoric.

    Likewise, many of us do not have “maternal instinct”. Some do have it but can never act on it, due to medical issues or possessing bodies that cannot carry children.

    As a dyke I’m sick of seeing heterocentrism. On behalf of my trans* compatriots I’m angry about the lack of consideration they apparently merit.

    Your output has now riled LGBTQ people and WOC. Have you tried some ableism yet? I think there’s still a secret PWD or PWMI to frighten off.

    This shit is exhausting. We can’t escape it in real life, now we can’t escape it even in apparent ‘social justice’ oriented spaces.

    I’m starting to think I should spend every second of my considerable downtime playing Angry Birds, and talking to my pets.

  29. This is the last article I comment on by this author because it’s like watching a slow motion car crash.

    Ana, please please understand: your friend is a mansplaining douchecanoe. Tell him to shut up and mind his own business. “Oh I’m such a great feminist that I violate boundaries all over the place and want cookies for spouting pseudo feminist nonsense”.

    Look, the greatest weapon you have against the patriarchy is KNOWLEDGE. Seriously, not “feelings”, just “ideas”, knowledge. Because you are being manipulated, socialized and indoctrinated and you don’t even see it. Stop blogging and start reading. And don’t stop reading until it seems really obvious that your friend would win an award called Most Likely To Date Rape Me and Then Gaslight Me About It. Seriously, don’t bother to come back in a few years with the inevitable date rape story and other violations and self doubt. Your life doesn’t need to be as bad as you are setting it up to be. Your paper thin understanding of feminism is not going to protect you. In fact, it gives a false confidence that eventually will fail you spectacularly. Because patriarchy could not possibly be as stupid as you think it is and still be successful. I’ve seen many women like you stumble and fall. It’s such a shock and such bitterness follows. Honestly, the naivity in your post (all your posts) is like watching a slow moving car crash.

  30. Partial Human-

    I agreed with you before about the “butch-femme” and whatnot, but I think that the bit you quoted was not meant to be taken as what actually is, but what women’s emotions are taken as.

    Like, if I get pissed off at work, people are all, like, har har, PMS. If a dude gets pissed off, his anger is taken at face value.

  31. “What does the sanctimonious women’s (gender) studies set of Feministe readers think?”

    No one is responding to this?

  32. oldlady, that’s a reference to Feministe’s tag-line (“In defense of the sanctimonious women’s studies set”).

  33. Have you tried some ableism yet?

    Yup. She called people with racial fetishes “crazy” in the other thread, which was also edited without comment.

  34. Wait, so my comment responding to Partial Human goes to mod, but shit like the OP gets posted without question?

  35. I was under the impression that guest posts had to be reviewed before they went up, even if only in a cursory fashion.

  36. @Partial Human and ahmm

    Thank you both for saying that…I felt like I was going to be a bully or maybe didn’t have enough evidence to back up my claims (I tend to hyper focus on things, so only two or three instances of behavior can seem like a pattern to me). I agree that Anna’s posts feel like there’s a lot of basic feminism missing, and while there’s always an underlying thought worth taking away, it’s buried under a lot of gender fail, cissexism, and other such things.

    I do want to say, however, that:

    Seriously, don’t bother to come back in a few years with the inevitable date rape story and other violations and self doubt.

    feels a little like victim blaming.

  37. What a pity, I haven’t seen posts with this level of ableism in a while – hell, I haven’t seen commenters using this level of ableism get away with it in God knows how long. And no, deleting does not remove the harm you’ve already done.

  38. Seriously, don’t bother to come back in a few years with the inevitable date rape story and other violations and self doubt. Your life doesn’t need to be as bad as you are setting it up to be. Your paper thin understanding of feminism is not going to protect you. In fact, it gives a false confidence that eventually will fail you spectacularly. Because patriarchy could not possibly be as stupid as you think it is and still be successful. I’ve seen many women like you stumble and fall. It’s such a shock and such bitterness follows. Honestly, the naivity in your post (all your posts) is like watching a slow moving car crash.

    Holy shit. Whatever you think about Anna’s posts, this is completely out of line.

  39. “I’m surrounded with several strong, independent women,” he told me. “But sometimes it seems like they’re adopting unflattering traditionally more masculine characteristics—like emotional distance, and refusing care from someone else.”

    http://www.sadtrombones.com

    Humans are humans are humans. Feeling that we have to apologise for being emotional (keeping in mind that women are emotional in approximately the same degree as men are emotional, people just tend to dismiss women more) is internalised misogyny. And I second Partial Human that you’re coming off fairly privileged, here, as you have in other posts (including the one on religion that you took down). I like your style, I really do, but please take a moment to read your work with a more critical eye before throwing it to a less 101 audience than most websites deal with. And for the love of kittens don’t edit your posts and not leave the original up for context!

  40. Seriously, don’t bother to come back in a few years with the inevitable date rape story and other violations and self doubt.

    Uh, wow. That’s so far over the line that the line is, like, a dot on the horizon.

  41. @Esti- I agree, it is a bit extreme. But we’ve all seen much more extreme comments here. We’re all adults here, after all (I think??). But the main point – that pre-approving guest posts wouldn’t be such a bad idea – seems pretty good.

  42. @BHuesca

    No. Telling someone that their naivety is going to get them date raped and that you don’t want to hear them complain when it happens is not “a bit extreme.” It is straight-up victim blaming. It is not acceptable.

  43. I am also concerned with the quality of Anna’s posts. I know this is a hat blog but non-hat posts at Feministe need to be of a much higher level, social justice-wise.

  44. The thing is, this could have been such a good post. Emotionality is sort of culturally tagged as feminine, and feminine as unworthy, and that is problematic.

    But “ladies push their emotions away” isn’t quite as much of a problem as “men push their emotions away,” and so it really puts me off that your friend talks about the former issue and not the latter. It makes me think less, “Wow, this guy values things that are traditionally considered less valuable because they’re associated with femininity,” and more “Wow, this guy wants his women to act more traditional.”

    And seriously, you are not handling criticism well. You need your post to acknowledge its original fail, not just brush the fail under the rug so you can pretend it was never fail.

  45. @Esti- I agree, it is a bit extreme. But we’ve all seen much more extreme comments here. We’re all adults here, after all (I think??). But the main point – that pre-approving guest posts wouldn’t be such a bad idea – seems pretty good.

    I know, right? Like how when that one guy called me “weird” and “crazy” it didn’t really bother me because I’ve also been called a “f**got”–which is way worse. Besides, I’m an adult, ya know? Also I was almost really pissed two years ago when I was arbitrarily fired for my job from something I didn’t do. . .but then I forgot to be grateful that I had even had a job to get fired from in the first place!! After all, some people can never get hired anywhere! So I was sure in a better position than those unfortunate souls.

    The main thing I’m trying to say is that if a person says some things that make sense, we should never fault them for something else they might also be saying that’s super offensive, because I mean it’s probably not really THAT offensive if you compare it to all the horrible things in the world that have ever happened throughout recorded history. And their main point was pretty good.

  46. No. Telling someone that their naivety is going to get them date raped and that you don’t want to hear them complain when it happens is not “a bit extreme.” It is straight-up victim blaming. It is not acceptable.

    Telling someone that they are going to bring their own rape upon themselves and that they won’t get any sympathy once it does happen is so far beyond victim blaming. It’s rape apologism, full stop.

    Yes, Anna’s post has questionable content that doesn’t appear to be well though out and that she should have realized would offend plenty of the readers here at Feministe. That’s all fair game as a discussion, but the you’re going to get raped and I’ll LOL about it has no place here or anywhere.

  47. Seriously, don’t bother to come back in a few years with the inevitable date rape story and other violations and self doubt.

    Not OK on any level. Men don’t commit date rape because the women are naive.

  48. Seconding Lolagirl’s comment hard. “You’re gonna get yourself raped because you don’t have a deep enough understanding of feminism to distrust your friend” is victim-blaming bullshit. “And don’t come talking about it on a feminist blog” is just disgusting.

    I have not been the biggest fan of Anna’s posts, but certain statements are simply beyond the pale, and I don’t invoke rape as a threat to anybody ever. Not least because you have no way of knowing whether or not Anna has had to endure sexual violence already, and you have no right to say that a woman who’s been raped by someone she knows has only her own poor judgment to blame, which is exactly what that statement implied.

  49. Seriously, don’t bother to come back in a few years with the inevitable date rape story and other violations and self doubt.

    Just here to add my “WTF??” to this clusterfuck of an article.

  50. Men don’t commit date rape because the women are naive.

    Talk about Feminism 101.

    Rapists rape because they can, to exert power over someone else and take away their personal agency in the most dignity stripping way the rapist can think up. This is no different from telling someone to not wear a short skirt or walk alone after dark or get tipsy at a party in order to prevent their own rape. It’s offensive and dangerous, because it puts to onus on the victim to not get raped instead of putting it on the rapist to not victimize others.

  51. BHuesca, comment 32 is the prime example that being an adult (if indeed that person is) doesn’t mean we will act like it. Mxe is a hundred times more mature than ‘ahmm’. My jaw literally dropped reading that here.

  52. Anna/mods, could you please throw a trigger warning up for the comments section? ahmm’s comment is disgusting. I’m sure it was my paper-thin understanding of feminism that got me assaulted. Jackass.

  53. I agree that Anna’s posts feel like there’s a lot of basic feminism missing, and while there’s always an underlying thought worth taking away, it’s buried under a lot of gender fail, cissexism, and other such things.

    Also agreed.

    I do want to say, however, that:

    Seriously, don’t bother to come back in a few years with the inevitable date rape story and other violations and self doubt.

    feels a little like victim blaming.

    Make that extremely victim blaming.

    WTF? I wish people wouldn’t throw around the “wait til you or some one you love gets raped” type comments AS IF THEY KNOW that the person they are directing them at has never been raped, or had someone in their life be victimized. Especially when talking to women, when the current stat is (correct me if I’m wrong) 1 in 4 women will be raped in her lifetime.
    Someone shouldn’t have to be up front about whether or not they’ve been raped to avoid having rape-wishes (as in, “you deserve rape”) thrown in their direction. Nor should any of the readers have to be exposed to such blatant rape apology (and really, that reads as more than apology, it comes across as a “I hope you get raped” type comment which is horrific).
    As EG said “Men don’t commit date rape because the women are naive.” And being naive does not mean someone “deserves” to be raped.

  54. ahmm, one of the reasons I stay far away from anti-feminist websites is because the victim-blaming attitudes on those websites make me profoundly livid. I think I speak for everyone here when I say that no one wants to see rape apologist vomit in what is supposed to be a safe space.

    BHuesca, comment 32 is the prime example that being an adult (if indeed that person is) doesn’t mean we will act like it. Mxe is a hundred times more mature than ‘ahmm’. My jaw literally dropped reading that here.

    Why are you comparing my maturity to ahmm’s? o_O It seems so random to me.

  55. Hi everyone,

    Professionally –
    Would it help if I said, “my experiences” instead of “our experiences” in a rhetorical sense? I was doing this because I thought it sounded better in writing and is something I know many women (people) share, but if it makes a difference in comfort levels and inclusivity, of course I will alter my style of writing! As a cis/heterosexual woman (from a traditional culture), I can’t fit into every category of what it means to be a woman, but would like to bring up issues that I experience for discussion. I want it to be an inclusive space, of course, but in no way speak for trans or queer women, as I am not one. I am very grateful for those who have given me pointers on how to make this discussion more inviting…

    Yes I have made edits. Mostly, because in response to being called out, if I was seriously offending anyone and making them feel terrible, I didn’t want to do this to anyone else. I am sorry for being offensive in the first place—but the way you police this blog is slightly troubling.

    Another note, I didn’t want this to be part of this conversation, but I am from a more traditional background than some of you–in Middle Eastern cultures, “gender essentializing” is still potent, no matter how assimilated into new cultures we become. While many here have stepped back and pointed out that when you think long enough, nothing is completely masculine or feminine, it is fair to say that as someone coming from a traditional culture, my perceptions of the world are informed by this.

    Personally –
    Many of you don’t realize that you are commenting on someone’s life—and you know little to nothing about the people involved. I realize that the complexities of personalities and interpersonal relationships rarely translate over the internet. The assumptions that you have made about both my friends from previous posts and my friend and colleague from this post (and me) are laughable if you knew us in real life.

    I am not going to say whether or not I have been sexually assaulted, because quite frankly, you have been incredibly violent, hostile and abusive and have not earned any more personal information from me. But read between the lines–one in six women, one in four women in college. It is my story to tell, but it is not out of the question.

    Regardless, I hope you feel terribly about yourself for an abusive and violent comment that you made to a stranger on the internet.

    For everyone else–these thoughts were simply something that were on my mind, that I wanted to share and see if anyone else was feeling the same way. I am interested in improving this conversation towards inclusivity. It is something we all need to work on in varying ways, and is even more difficult for those of us from more traditional cultures where we have even more of a psychological gender binary to take down. I am not interested in being told this through being attacked, much less being told I’m going to be raped and not have pity.

  56. Yes I have made edits. Mostly, because in response to being called out, if I was seriously offending anyone and making them feel terrible, I didn’t want to do this to anyone else. I am sorry for being offensive in the first place—but the way you police this blog is slightly troubling.

    Making edits is not problematic. Making edits without explicitly recording the fact that you did so in the original post is problematic. It comes off as you just trying to cover your tracks rather than make any sort of sincere gesture. Many people have pointed this out to you already.

  57. Anna, ahmm’s disgusting comment was one of the worst things I’ve ever seen here, directed at anybody.

    I do think that it would be helpful for you and everyone else, here and in many other places, to try to stay away from generalized “we” statements made as if they apply to everyone in a group of people, especially if they’re phrased in a way that makes them appear to be all-encompassing. I’m well aware that using the first person plural can sometimes be an effective rhetorical device in some settings. But I have to say that in all my years as a participant and moderator in a private trans forum, almost nothing — other than outright bigoted or personally insulting comments, which don’t occur very often in a space like that — is more likely to inspire anger than people’s tendency to universalize their own experience in that particular way. There’s a whole lot of diversity even among just the trans people and their partners on that forum, in terms of their viewpoints and experiences and circumstances, and that diversity is multiplied among the commentariat here. Which may consist mostly of cis women, but not entirely by any means.

    I am sorry that you had to experience being the target of what came pretty close to rape advocacy, never mind rape apology.

    And I do think that you’ve been responsive to critical comments — justified or otherwise — way better than I would be in your position. I am extremely glad, for a lot of reasons, that I decided not to try do this myself!

  58. Nope, reread my comment and completely stand by it. Happy to be a Jackass, btw. Very Happy. Especially in the light of Ana’s further responses. Better than the douchey woman policing asshole that is a Fake Feminist Guy and or a Feminist Who Unquestionably Accepts Traditional Patriarchal Values, Apparently Without Any Self-Reflection, Especially When Espoused By Men.

    And I completely disagree that it’s victim blaming. Ana is not walking down the street at night. She is broadcasting her feministe backed view on a fairly popular feminist website. She’s trying to get us to interrogate why we won’t be nicer to the meeenzzz. The poor menz! Instead of being so mean to them like Evil Feminists. Encouraging other women to ignore their own boundaries in order to step back in line with patriarchy. Its an ANTI FEMINIST POST.

    Let’s stop pretending that patriarchy is some fluffy cuddly little problem that can be deconstructed over a cup of (drip) coffee and a nice blog post. Patriarchy is violation and oppression by “nice, warm, caring” people who are both immunized and sickened by their privilege. Like Ana’s wonderfully smug douche of a friend.

    Tell your “friend” that on behalf of women everywhere who are sick of being told to smile more and are continually punished for not being sufficiently “caring” or “open”, he can go fuck himself with a rusty stick.

  59. @ Anna

    I think we can safely say that Ahmm’s comment doesn’t speak for all of us. Even the commenters who are annoyed with you spoke out quickly and fiercely on that.

    Personally, I was excited when you first began posting and then a little concerned when there seemed to be a pattern of missteps through your early posts, which at first seemed to be you getting used to the space and since have seemed to speak to a more pervasive lack of experience with a crowd like this. I mean, I get that you’re new to blogging and new to this crowd but, honestly, Feministe is NOT a blogger 101 space – it’s not even a blogger 201 space, so, yeah, this might be a challenging time for you, but there’s a lot to be learned if you’re open to it.

    But you lost all credibility with me when I pointed out a simple way to make an inaccessible post accessible and you haven’t made any acknowledgement of the problem with the original post or moved to fix it. That action (or lack of it) spoke to me that you weren’t actually all that interested in learning or improving your blogging style, despite what you have claimed.

    And if you’re bothered that people here seem to be commenting without understanding intimate details of your life and personal acquaintances… how could we? How could we possibly know these things? We are interpreting and responding to these posts as best as we know how (barring, yes, the assholes who show up and say egregious awful things, which the rest of us call out) based on what information is present. I’ve been reading comments here for a long time now, and as far as I can see everyone has been giving you a reasonable benefit of the doubt that you are here operating in good faith and trying to learn, but patience seems to be wearing out with every new problem. I know it has for me.

    Just as a small example, the fact that you have referred more than once to inside “jokes” that we, the commenters, have no hope of understanding says to me that you have not figured out how to empathize with your audience here and make a reasonable about how we will interpret your posts. That’s obviously not an easy thing to do, but I think if you were able to step back, think about what’s appropriate to share and what isn’t going to come across to strangers on the Internet, and make fewer assumptions about what you want us to say, you’d get a lot less push back.

    I’ve seen a lot of guest bloggers come and go. For all that we have a bad rap of being mean to guest bloggers (and there has been some hideous behaviour aimed at particular guests unjustly as well as legitimate call-outs of the very bad behaviour of other guests), I’d actually say that’s a minority of extreme cases. Many guest bloggers come here and get along fine, especially those who already know the culture and expectations here and can tailor their posts to this audience, which is why guest blogger season is and remains my favourite time of the year on Feministe.

  60. She is broadcasting her feministe backed view on a fairly popular feminist website. She’s trying to get us to interrogate why we won’t be nicer to the meeenzzz. The poor menz! Instead of being so mean to them like Evil Feminists. Encouraging other women to ignore their own boundaries in order to step back in line with patriarchy. Its an ANTI FEMINIST POST.

    How does any of that justify cavalierly telling a woman that she will be inevitably raped by a friend, and that when that happens, you will be unsympathetic on what is supposed to be a feminist website? How does that justify implying that poor judgment and a poor understanding of feminism means a woman will be raped? How does that justify flinging flippant predictions of rape at a woman who, for all you know, has had endure sexual violence already?

    I’ll tell you how: it doesn’t. Because nothing could.

  61. Hi Jadey,

    I will look through–I think I missed your earlier post on how to improve this post. I’m very sorry about that–I do have several jobs, so unfortunately during the day do not really have as much time as might be needed to attend.

    I’m new to blogging, but I’m not exactly new to writing or activism. I see blogging as an opportunity for discussion and learning and don’t see a point in not introducing something at least a little bit controversial or thought-provoking. I don’t claim to understand any experience–I just write what is on my mind in that moment. Mostly, I want to get other people’s stories rather than rebukes to my own. After all, I’m a journalist by trade.

    I sincerely hope your opinion of my posts changes. If not, better luck next time.

  62. Anna, you’ve posted several time in the last hour since I made my comment at #61, which is still in moderation. What’s going on?

  63. @ Anna

    I hope you are learning that Internet blogging is a beast of its own and not interchangeable with other forms of writing and activism. Raising controversial topics is not the problem (that’s a regular occurrence around these parts), but it does call on a different way of interacting with your audience with different considerations and expectations in order to have a fruitful experience (and it differs from blog to blog). Honestly, I’m probably going to give your posts a pass from here on in because I’m finding them more frustrating than interesting – too much 101 going on on too many issues and I feel like you don’t really understand the community here (or at least the subcommunity of commenters that I’m most interested in sharing this experience with). YMMV.

    I understand being busy so I can also understand missing comments. The inaccessible post I am referring to is your picture post from a few days ago. The issue still stands. A brief discussion of web accessibility with a number of good links ensued in the comments just after that one (down to about comment 15) that you might also find interesting.

  64. ahmm: Take some fucking personal responsibility for wishing rape on a woman. That’s why you’re in the hot seat. Whatever Anna thinks or says about anything or nothing is irrelevant to the reprehensibile content of your rape apologism.

  65. “I’m surrounded with several strong, independent women,” he told me. “But sometimes it seems like they’re adopting unflattering traditionally more masculine characteristics—like emotional distance, and refusing care from someone else.”

    So, . . . I’m struggling to understand why you think our “real life” acquaintance with this guy would change our minds regarding the suckiness of what he said. I’m conjuring up images of the people closest to me in my life- my husband, my sisters, my best friend- and if I imagine these extremely awesome people saying THAT comment, it would still be horrifically un-feminist and I would question how well they understand the concept of feminism.

    I think everyone appreciates that you are speaking from your experience. However, that you are speaking from your experience does not excuse you from framing it within a feminist perspective since this is a feminist blog! That comment your friend made is just plain gender essentialism and any person even remotely familiar with Feminism101 should be able to pick up on that, regardless of who it is that made the comment.

    If this were a mathematics blog and you totally screwed up the basics of set theory, everyone would point it out to you. So, that’s all we’re doing.

    Also, it’s totally cool that you come from a traditional culture which has informed your conceptions of masculinity and femininity. I too come from such a traditional background. However, as feminists, we should be 1) critiquing how and why our culture constructed those terms in that way and 2) analyzing what implications follow from those constructions, especially for women.

  66. Encouraging other women to ignore their own boundaries in order to step back in line with patriarchy. Its an ANTI FEMINIST POST.

    Of course, telling a woman that she’s no longer entitled to any boundaries and is, in fact, inevitably deserving of sexual violation because she’s stepped out of line with what you consider to be feminism is totally not an anti-feminist comment. Natch.

    Mostly, I want to get other people’s stories rather than rebukes to my own. After all, I’m a journalist by trade.

    In which case, Anna, I would think that drawing upon personal experience would be a terrible idea for your future posts. If you don’t want to open any of the things you discuss for, well, discussion, you could try writing more impersonally, in the style of, say, Kristen J or Jill in some of her more article-style posts.

  67. I have just returned to regularly reading Feministe after a long break. The comments to this post make me remember why I stayed away.

    Far too many people seemed interested in taking potshots at Anna than addressing the important issues she raises.

    I just started posting on Daily Kos again, and that seems a warmly, cuddly place in comparison.

  68. Anna-

    I just wanted to jump in real quick and clarify that Jadey is referring to the photo you posted earlier, not this post. Jadey asked that you add a description to make the post more accessible, and even wrote a description you could use. I’m assuming you haven’t been watching that thread, since there hasn’t been any response.

  69. Exactly, EG. Not being subjected to victim blaming (bordering on wishing someone will be raped) isn’t a prize you have to earn by winning your Feminism Badge; it’s something that every. single. person. is entitled to regardless of what you think about the things they say or do.

  70. When a person points out that you’ve used a term that offends–and we have all done so–the best response is to say, “Thank you. Noted.” Then, you make make adjustments to your future writing.

    I was really interested in the topic in the original post, so I was disappointed there wasn’t more written about it in the comments.

    Obviously, there is not a right way for women to experience or display emotions in patriarchy. Women are too emotional/not emotional enough/emotional in the wrong way/for the wrong reasons/at the wrong time/at the wrong volume/to the wrong person. Is there any woman who has experienced being emotional in just the right way? And who would be deciding that anyhow? A man-friend? A woman-friend? Our mothers? Our own internalized, patriarchy-installed monitoring systems?

    This reminds me of how women’s bodies are always too fat/too thin/too stinky/too perfumed/too hairy/too shaved/too ugly/too pretty/too prudish/too sexy/too curvy/not curvy enough/too exposed/not exposed enough and so on and so on.

    Ultimately, there is no right way to be a woman because, in patriarchy, the right way to be is a man–preferably a white, straight, wealthy, able-bodied, cis man. (A certain political candidate comes to mind…)

    That said, although I am aware of the problematic nature of gender essentialism, the majority of people in my social world are gender essentialists to one degree or another, and this causes me all kinds of problems when I do/do not emote. In fact, it is a significant issue in my life. Others?

  71. “Don’t call me out on my privilege and if you don’t like it, too bad.”

    Such a helpful sentiment.

  72. I’m new to blogging, but I’m not exactly new to writing or activism. I see blogging as an opportunity for discussion and learning and don’t see a point in not introducing something at least a little bit controversial or thought-provoking.

    There’s a difference between controversy that’s about people’s difference of opinions and “controversy” that is basically making people angry by poking at their sores. And I’m not saying that you’ve been prodding wounds intentionally for the sake of getting responses, but I really don’t think you should write off some of the anger (which is actually pretty low key) and critiquing here as people simply disagreeing with your opinion.

    I don’t claim to understand any experience–I just write what is on my mind in that moment. Mostly, I want to get other people’s stories rather than rebukes to my own. After all, I’m a journalist by trade.

    But isn’t that what people are doing? They’re rebuking you because of their stories, their life experiences. It might not be as a neat dialogue as you presented in your OP, but commentors are giving you ideas that they’ve thought about and probably analyzed in the same manner you did.

    And, I’m sorry if this isn’t your experience, but blogging – at least not as I’ve seen it done – isn’t the same as a forum. It’s not where the person who starts a thread is just another participant in the conversation. A blog post is much more substantial and leaves itself to be critiqued because the poster has the most ‘power’ (at least in initial thoughts and generally in word count).

  73. And I completely disagree that it’s victim blaming. Ana is not walking down the street at night. She is broadcasting her feministe backed view on a fairly popular feminist website. She’s trying to get us to interrogate why we won’t be nicer to the meeenzzz. The poor menz! Instead of being so mean to them like Evil Feminists. Encouraging other women to ignore their own boundaries in order to step back in line with patriarchy. Its an ANTI FEMINIST POST.

    Wow, way to double down on your stupid, ahmm.

    How can you possibly call yourself a feminist if you don’t understand the basic and fundamental reality that rape victims don’t cause their rape. Rapists cause rapes.

    Rapists cause rape, their victims don’t. Not ever. Not being a feminist, or not being feminist enough has nothing to do with bringing rape upon oneself.

    Lather, rinse, repeat.

  74. I can publicly express that I am pissed off—but sadness, discontent and confusion are emotions that I rarely explore myself, lest they absorb value time in “proving myself to the world.”

    That’s something that’s pretty common in men. I think you’re just expressing socially acceptable emotions, aka manly emotions.

  75. The date rape comment was completely out of line.

    please take a moment to read your work with a more critical eye before throwing it to a less 101 audience than most websites deal with.

    I’ve been trying to find a good way to bring this up over the last few days. I was wondering if I was alone in having a problem with your posts. According to your introduction, you’re committed to social justice, but your posts have a very 101 feel to them, as if you’re new to feminism or not very experienced with progressive politics.

    Everyone spends time with the 101-level stuff at some point; that’s fine. But this is a more advanced space than that, so we expect more from the bloggers here.

    A few of your posts have been “misread” because you’re using private jokes in a public space. That’s a bit down the lane and into the Mace, isn’t it?

    the way you police this blog is slightly troubling.

    Without examples of the specific comments you’ve found troubling, I don’t know what you mean by that. Some of the commenters here are assholes. Some of the commenters here are great people who don’t have a lot of patience for someone tossing out ableist, sexist remarks on a feminist blog.

    I am from a more traditional background than some of you–in Middle Eastern cultures, “gender essentializing” is still potent, no matter how assimilated into new cultures we become. […] as someone coming from a traditional culture, my perceptions of the world are informed by this.

    Right, yes, great. We all live in a patriarchy. We’re all racist and sexist and so forth to one degree or another, because we’re steeped in a racist, sexist culture. It’s stronger in some backgrounds than in others. That’s why it’s important for us to examine and interrogate our ideas and point out missteps so that we can all learn and grow and become better people.

  76. But you lost all credibility with me when I pointed out a simple way to make an inaccessible post accessible and you haven’t made any acknowledgement of the problem with the original post or moved to fix it. That action (or lack of it) spoke to me that you weren’t actually all that interested in learning or improving your blogging style, despite what you have claimed.

    In a nutshell, all of that, yes.

    I think I missed your earlier post on how to improve this post. I’m very sorry about that

    It was a different post, days ago.

  77. Sheesh! All the “oh, that’s soooo 101” critiques are getting really annoying. Get off your high horses, people. Feminism isn’t a monolith, and there’s no such thing as a universal 101 curriculum. What’s really happening here is the same thing that happens in many long-standing online communities (not just feminist ones) – a local culture has developed with particular mores, taboos, sensitivies, shiboleths, etc., and a new arrival is getting stomped on for saying things that would be perfectly acceptable in other communities. It’s not “advanced feminism vs. 101 feminism”, despite the pretentions of some folks here; it’s just “Feministe culture vs. non-Feministe culture”.

    And frankly, much of the criticism seems to be the result of sloppy or bad faith readings of Anna’s posts anyway. For example, the “gender-essentialism” critique of her friend’s comment completely ignores the obvious and important qualifier in his statement that the characteristics he dislikes are traditionally masculine, not inherently so. That’s not gender essentialism; that’s a description of existing patriarchal associations.

  78. Oh and “jokingly referred to as [a queer identity]” is. not cool. We’re not jokes, we’re not badges of cool that super-shiny straight self-appointed allies can pin to themselves.

    a new arrival is getting stomped on for saying things that would be perfectly acceptable in other communities. It’s not “advanced feminism vs. 101 feminism”, despite the pretentions of some folks here

    It’s totally feminist to appropriate the cultures and terminology of oppressed people for fun in-jokes?

  79. When the OP deleted a post and the explanation was essentially “I’m a journalist, so this is something I’ve decided would be better off as an article in a magazine,” my first thought was “gee, in a magazine, your points can’t be directly and personally critiqued and refuted in a forum like, say, Feministe. Then I felt bad, like I should have been reading her posts more charitably, more 101. But then this comes along, a statement from the OP that she doesn’t want her post critiqued and she’d rather focus on the article. Is this a fair request, or just a way to try to avoid the consequences of what the OP has written?

  80. That’s a bit down the lane and into the Mace, isn’t it?

    I see what you did there.

    Feminism isn’t a monolith, and there’s no such thing as a universal 101 curriculum.

    Actually, no. There’s some pretty basic universalities.

    A) Rape apology is never cool.
    B) Nobody should have dominion over ones own body

    There’s more, but I’m at work right now.

  81. It’s totally feminist to appropriate the cultures and terminology of oppressed people for fun in-jokes?

    No, I agree that was inappropriate, but she deleted the offending line once it was pointed out. And yes, a strike-through with acknowledging editorial note is the convention for blogging, but the point is that she accepted the critique and acted on it. We then got 60 more comments from people ripping her to shreds for every possible slight, real or imagined, and trotting out the “101” self-flattery instead of engaging the important and oft-discussed issues she actually raised in her post.

  82. a new arrival is getting stomped on for saying things that would be perfectly acceptable in other communities. It’s not “advanced feminism vs. 101 feminism”, despite the pretentions of some folks here; it’s just “Feministe culture vs. non-Feministe culture”.

    Uh, no. It’s “being passively ableist/gender essentialist vs people critiquing that”. Do I think Anna writes in bad faith or that she consciously set out to appropriate anyone or be ableist? No. I do think she has some unexamined attitudes, however. And if, as she notes, the problem lies in her Middle Eastern roots, providing a different (note: I am specifically not saying Western) perspective would be valuable, would it not?

  83. Personally, I didn’t know that Feministe considered itself beyond, say, Feminism 102 (second semester!) feminism. So really this all sounds like the usual argle bargle I-found-a-mistake-therefore-set-the-newbie-on-fire! stuff. Yeah, we’re not being feminists we’re being pretentious perfectionists. She’s not the second coming of Hitler or Gloria Steinem, so let’s not all dogpile.

  84. On topic: sometimes when I get angry or frustrated I cry (more so than when I’m sad, in fact.) And that’s hugely annoying to me, because it means that the conversation is virtually over, and because talking about the issues that are upsetting me becomes “oh em gee please stop crying!” and the topic gets lost. So I don’t want to be “cared for” in that situation, I want to be allowed to “stay calm and carry on” and get my shit together on my own time.

  85. and trotting out the “101″ self-flattery instead of engaging the important and oft-discussed issues she actually raised in her post.

    But that was kind of our point, Elle. These issues are oft-discussed, well-known. There’s a language and a previously existing body of work on it, and being apparently unaware of that language and having nothing really new to contribute to that body of work isn’t really impressive. Add the side of queer appropriation and it’s just…um, problematic. To be fair to her, though, Anna did in fact fix the things she was called out on, promptly. It wasn’t in the way we’re used to and like best, but it’s not as if people haven’t acknowledged that she’s made partial amends. Jesus.

  86. because talking about the issues that are upsetting me becomes “oh em gee please stop crying!” and the topic gets lost.

    Oh my god, THIS. Also, when people see that I’m almost on the verge of tears and they go “Well, what are you crying for?” or “You’re not going to cry are you?”

    Well I maybe WASN’T until you POINTED IT OUT.

    I also live in fear that people think I cry to get my own way, when in actual fact a lot of the times I cry because I have yet to figure out how NOT TO.

  87. Here is something interesting about tears:

    “Tears shed by women contain chemical signals that decrease sexual arousal and testosterone levels in men, according to a study.”

  88. Personally, I didn’t know that Feministe considered itself beyond, say, Feminism 102 (second semester!) feminism. So really this all sounds like the usual argle bargle I-found-a-mistake-therefore-set-the-newbie-on-fire! stuff. Yeah, we’re not being feminists we’re being pretentious perfectionists. She’s not the second coming of Hitler or Gloria Steinem, so let’s not all dogpile.

    I’d agree with that, actually. It’s not the Feminism 101 that’s bugging me – it’s the everything else 101.

    For the record, most of the stuff she’s been called out on has not been piddly little details – it’s been hurtful, offensive things. Why should anyone get a pass on that in any space? Hell, I tell my grandmother when she’s being racist, homophobic, ableist, etc. – why wouldn’t I tell a guest blogger?

    And seriously, with some notable (and excoriated) exceptions no one is telling Anna she’s a terrible person or “setting her on fire” (unless you consider, “Hey, that thing you did is not cool. Here’s why and please don’t do it again” to be inflammatory). So here’s a way to reconnect this back to the original post – why is it that almost every time commenters here try to make a critical comment on the basis of a social justice value (i.e., don’t be ableist, don’t appropriate identities), we get labelled as being “angry” in some way that dismisses the legitimacy of our opinions? Talk about invalidating emotions.

  89. sometimes when I get angry or frustrated I cry (more so than when I’m sad, in fact.) And that’s hugely annoying to me, because it means that the conversation is virtually over, and because talking about the issues that are upsetting me becomes “oh em gee please stop crying!” and the topic gets lost. So I don’t want to be “cared for” in that situation, I want to be allowed to “stay calm and carry on” and get my shit together on my own time.

    Yes, this! I cry out of frustration and anger more than sadness…and also if I’m tired and my coping strategies are failing and I’m just overwhelmed. It doesn’t mean I want to stop talking or can’t discuss rationally any further, it just means that some inner stuff needs outing and then we’ll carry on. The fact that other people have problems handling emotions (their own or that of others) isn’t my problem, and I have to keep telling myself that…especially as someone who HAS had problems dealing with her emotions in the past and has done a lot of fucking hard work to get to the point where getting it out feels so much better than internalization. But yeah, it does piss me off that externalized motions get coded as “weak” when I know for a fact how much strength and courage it took to get to this point.

  90. I also live in fear that people think I cry to get my own way, when in actual fact a lot of the times I cry because I have yet to figure out how NOT TO.

    Fuck yeah. If tear ducts came with little faucets those babies would be firmly off when I want to get my own way on things. I’m a grown-up, and I prefer to use my words to win arguments. :p

  91. because talking about the issues that are upsetting me becomes “oh em gee please stop crying!” and the topic gets lost.

    Oh my god, THIS. Also, when people see that I’m almost on the verge of tears and they go “Well, what are you crying for?” or “You’re not going to cry are you?”

    Well I maybe WASN’T until you POINTED IT OUT.

    I also live in fear that people think I cry to get my own way, when in actual fact a lot of the times I cry because I have yet to figure out how NOT TO.

    I’m much different in that I almost never cry for some reason, but I can still relate in a way. Whenever I genuinely cry, people think that I’m doing it just for attention and getting my way. Sometimes I wish I could just cry in front of someone who wouldn’t say “Oh, you’re not going to gain any sympathy from me! I know what you’re trying to do!” I’m sick of it.

  92. Firstly, regarding the “Feminism 101” issue, my view is that a blogger on Feministe should have a higher knowledge about and aware of feminist and social justice issues than some other “new arrival”. She is not simply a “newbie”, she is a blogger and I think it’s reasonable to hold her to a higher standard than a commenter.

    Secondly, I also have the crying when emotions are heightened issue. It’s really annoying!!! Luckily, my emotions don’t get heightened very often. I am generally pretty unmoved by most things (although less so since I’ve had children). Sometimes I’ve wondered whether there is something wrong with me but generally I find it quite helpful for getting on with things rather than dwelling.

  93. I have read that, on average, women have shallower tear ducts than do men, so that it is actually easier for men to keep from crying. I just thought I’d add that.

  94. Word up to my fellow criers! I cry at the drop of a hat, it’s truly ridiculous. I hate it because I feel like I am seen as weak when I cry during an argument. I’m not weak, my crying is just a physical manifestation of the same anger and frustration anyone would feel in the same situation, it’s just more often seen as unacceptable.

  95. For me, the “you had to be there, inside joke lol” excuse doesn’t work because it’s just bad writing. If you’re going to write from personal experiences, you better make your biases transparent and tell the whole story. Or just don’t bother. I’m pretty sure that’s the same in journalism and blogging. If you have to explain that there’s more to the story, obviously what you were trying to do just didn’t work. I come from a country that is more gender essentialist and traditional as well, and if I sense that my upbringing is going to influence the conversation, I start with that. I don’t bring it up mid-way through, once someone gets upset – that’s just bad communication.

    And I also cry when I’m angry, but for some reason I can’t ever cry when I’m sad. Go figure!

  96. @Elle – she deleted the offensive description, and then (after being prompted to admit that) said words to the effect that it didn’t really matter anyway, that mocking queer identities was ok to her if it was done “jokingly”.

    That’s what the ‘badges’ comment is about.

    Bagelsan – did you see the original post. before the 9000 edits? The one that’s currently up there is completely different in tone, content, and phrasing. It’s like comparing a Hollywood blockbuster to a TV movie. It’s been gutted.

    @Anna – you can’t demand to be spoonfed, and then complain when it dribbles onto your chin. You said (way upthread) that you couldn’t see the misogyny or essentialsm.

    You asked for it to be pointed out. So don’t react by getting defensive, blaming your upbringing, using the old “I have a life” canard, and tossing in a dash of “I’m a real writer”.

    All you had to say was “Sorry”. All you had to do was admit that you, like all of us, are sometimes too caught up in our privilege to really interrogate our own mindset and beliefs.

    People had given you the benefit of the doubt over several posts. At one time you would have been eviscerated over that race post, but for some reason 90% of the WOC in the commentariat vanished. I cannot think why…

    As Flavia Dzodan says:

    My feminism will be intersectional or it will be bullshit.

    You need to be mindful of everything, everyone. Race, colour, culture, sexuality, gender, neurotypicality, physical ability, mental state, socioeconomic status, location, nationality, etc. At first that seems ridiculous. When you try it from the perspective of a writing exercise though, you soon realise how many everyday figures of speech rely on othering, on judgement.

    Trigger warning for examples of ‘ist language.

    Of strange things:

    That’s crazy, insane, mad, mental.

    Of bad people:

    He’s deranged, he’s a psycho, she’s a schizo, only a mentally ill person could do that.

    Negative personal descriptors:

    I’m so gimpy, such a spaz, totally OCD, certifiable.

    Essentialism is easier to spot. Any statement implying our outright claiming that men or women act in certain ways or have certain characteristics.

    Men hate shopping, women love flowers, real women do X, real men are Y.

    Offensive physical statements based on that:

    Throwing /crying like a girl.

    She has man-hands, she looks like a man in drag.

    The constant conflation of assigned sex and gender, and using general statements like:

    All women have periods/vaginas/are XX.
    Everyone with a vagina/periods/breasts is a woman or girl.

    I’m gonna stop now because it’s 3am. But apply those lenses to your writing and thought. Notice how much of our language is based on othering, and strive to avoid it. Eventually it’s natural.

  97. Bagelsan – did you see the original post. before the 9000 edits?

    No, I didn’t. That’s almost certainly biasing my response. :\

  98. Negative personal descriptors:

    I’m so gimpy, such a spaz, totally OCD, certifiable.

    A good example of when “in-jokes” are inappropriate, in fact: I might say such things as “I’m so OCD!” to my friends because they know I actually have OCD, so it’s a little tongue-in-cheek, but in a blog post with no context it’s not funny it’s hurtful.

  99. A good example of when “in-jokes” are inappropriate, in fact: I might say such things as “I’m so OCD!” to my friends because they know I actually have OCD, so it’s a little tongue-in-cheek, but in a blog post with no context it’s not funny it’s hurtful.

    Heh, yeah. I have the same issue; my wife and I (who seriously almost have a disease for each letter of the alphabet between us) tend to call our place the House o’ Gimps, but it’s… affectionate. And basically just laughing at our disabilities, because what the fuck else are you gonna do.

  100. @mac – same here. The two Mrs Humans are so ‘blessed’ that you could probably open a medical textbook at random and find one of our diagnoses listed.

    We are “The House That Spack* Built”.

    Laughing and joking in the face of some of our appalling issues is the best way to cope. Also, it terrifies everyone we know who’s “normal”. They must expect tears and rocking.

    * locat slang for ‘spastic’. She has ataxia.

  101. Oh, well, I gather the author believes the commenters [at feministe] are CRAY. I guess it’s more acceptable than “crazy”, but as someone with a mental illness I feel uneasy about this attribution (even though I am a rare enough contributor that I am probably not meant). >.< I'm probably too sensitive, anyway.

  102. On crying:

    I’ve always been a crier. I cry during movies, I cry during sad love songs, I cried when I moved too another city, I cry when I get upset and frustrated, and I cry when I have to say goodbye to my nieces after they visit from another state. The response is usually, “Oh, God. She’s crying again. [rolleyes]” My dad has even said that he thinks my crying is intentional and that I use it to manipulate people. (This was years after I had been diagnosed with depression, btw.) So whenever I cry, I get angry at myself for it, even though I know it’s okay. I try to wear a mask and smile and blame my red, watery eyes on allergies. But the worst part is the fear that my young nieces and nephews would pick up that it’s wrong to cry and I really don’t want that for them.

    Dammit, I’m even crying now.

  103. Oh, well, I gather the author believes the commenters [at feministe] are CRAY. I guess it’s more acceptable than “crazy”

    >_> I don’t feel so. It makes me uncomfortable, actually.

    Laughing and joking in the face of some of our appalling issues is the best way to cope. Also, it terrifies everyone we know who’s “normal”. They must expect tears and rocking.

    No shit, right? In our case, the fibromyalgia (yeah, we both have it, the odds are fucking hilarious) is sort of the biggest fucker-upper, but there’s a hell of a lot of other issues, too.

    Watching others get really, really uncomfortable when I casually bring up health issues I have is one of my secret guilty pleasure, lol.

  104. I’m such a crier. It’s the worst when I’m frustrated, but it also comes out when I’m sad, when I’m dehydrated, when I watch videos online of animals that have recovered from abuse… It happens a lot. And it’s frustrating how it can make people take me less seriously in a discussion, because it’s not that I’m losing composure and/or rationality–I’m just leaking. Ignore it, and it’ll go away. Mention it, and it’ll get worse.

    As for -ism: At my house, we refer (affectionately) to my “crazazy,” occasionally shortened to “the crizz.” But it’s not something I’d really appreciate thrown at me by someone who didn’t love me.

  105. Why are you comparing my maturity to ahmm’s? o_O It seems so random to me.

    I’m sorry I shouldn’t have singled you out. It was because I thought you were younger, and you’d written on that topic recently before. But it was unconscious ageism in my mind, in retropsect.

    On crying: I don’t cry with personal frustration or anger; usually I just shut down or express my words in anger. I’m very good at shutting down and distancing myself emotionally from the situation. If not, I’m sure I would cry at extreme frustration or anger as well. Instead I cry over impersonal stuff: Movies, literature, or other people’s writings about themselves that move or touch me. It happens silently, and quickly. Usually it’s finished after two or three tears have rolled down each eye. Even if I’m in a public place, often no one will notice.

    For some time as a teenager after I’d lost the ability to cry like a child, I thought I might never again cry in my life. Then one day I was watching Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring at the scene where Boromir is killed, and I suddenly felt a tear running down my cheek. I was a Christian and I saw LOTR as a good-vs-evil allegory and I was taking it all very seriously. The tears surprised but pleased me; it was cathartic. Ever since then I’ve been able to cry at very emotional scenes and it heightens my enjoyment of the scene.

  106. This

    Cray, a slang term for “crazy” stemming from the pronunciation of the word in African American Vernacular English.

    I believe the specific reference – which made the term popular these days, is a Jay-Z/Kanye West single, the lyrics to which can be found here, with annotations (fwiw).

  107. I try to wear a mask and smile and blame my red, watery eyes on allergies.

    Oh my Gord.. I can’t even hide when I am upset and have been crying. I definitely cry The Ugly Cry as I call it.. red eyes, scrunchy, puffy face.

    No Demi-Moore-Single-Tear-Slipping-Down-Cheek elegant crying here. No, I call that Allergy Season.

  108. I have never heard someone use cray outside the context of cray cray. I thought that was an integral part of the phrase, that you said it twice.

    I think that the reason crying pisses people off is that it has a visceral power. You feel bad if you “make” someone cry even if you know intellectually that they are manipulating you. So even when they aren’t trying to do that it still feels that way. Strong emotional displays make you doubt yourself. If the other person feels strongly enough to cry or yell, are you sure you aren’t being unfair? People like to feel in control of themselves and you can’t prevent that feeling of being upset when confronted with crying. That’s the whole reason crying is the go to manipulator in the first place.

  109. According to urban dictionary:
    “The origin of the term “Cray” from the “Niggas In Paris” single is actually not a shortened form of “crazy”, nor is it “cray”, It’s actually “Kray. It’s in reference to the schizophrenic twins Ronald and Reginald Kray… The Kray twins who were the crime lords of London in the 50’s and 60’s… The police failed to locate them on numerous occasions, which is where the line “Ball so hard, muhhfuckas wanna find me, that shit Kray…” comes from.”

  110. We’re CRAY…fish? CRAY…ons? Trying to figure out what CRAY means is driving me CRAZY!

    D: Me too.

    (also, love that the response to “you’re being ableist” is to call us an ableist slur with one letter cut out. I guess that makes her less of a dochebg or something)

  111. actually not a shortened form of “crazy”, nor is it “cray”

    It’s in reference to the schizophrenic twins Ronald and Reginald Kray

    I’m just going to leave this here.

    Anyway, there’s not much point to debating the specific etymology when the general sentiment came through loud and clear.

  112. (Side note: for some reasons almost all of my comments on Anna’s posts go into mod, especially over the last few days, a much higher rate than my comments on other contributors’ posts. I know, I know, the mod-algorithm is inscrutable, but it’s an interesting pattern nonetheless…)

    On the crying topic (which I actually do find quite interesting), the time in my life when I was most out of control over my crying was also the time in my life when I was the most “in control” of it, weirdly. I was working as a summer camp counsellor for a daycamp-within-an-overnight-camp (so my little kids were there during the day, but I was also on-site with the rest of the campers for the whole summer). I was still new to the gig and while I loved it, it was also incredibly stressful because we were short on staff that summer and I was managing the entire daycamp myself with very little support (I didn’t have a lot of friends on staff either, even though they were awesome people, they weren’t really my people and being the daycamp person I was excluded accidentally from the rest of the camp goings-on usually). I’m an easy crier when I get frustrated usually, but you cannot – CANNOT – cry in front of five and six-year-olds and hope to maintain order. And you CANNOT cry in front of their parents and hope to maintain employment. So by mid-summer I had gotten to the point where during the day my emotions were 100% locked down and I was going on happy-chipper-everything-is-just-GREAT autopilot, but the moment my kids went home I had to find somewhere quiet on the campground to go sob, only to turn it off like a faucet if someone came across me. I literally fell asleep and woke up with tears running down my face for two weeks straight, even though by that point I only felt hollow inside from the burn-out.

    Emotional balance is what I go for now, and sometimes that means letting it out when it needs to be let out (every once in a while I need to work myself up into a good cry, doing the “emotional laundry” – exhausting but cleansing). If I find myself crying at weird times (especially if I feel emotionally disconnected between jags), then I know I’m off-kilter. I think for men and for women there’s a lot of fucked up messages about how to express and interpret our emotions – I got raised with a lot of “boys girls don’t cry” weirdness from my dad because he didn’t have any sons to lay that shit on and it has not helped. But I also hate losing my grip in public for stupid reasons (like the time I started crying in class because I was a few minutes late and then started crying even more because I was embarrassed about crying). I try to treat my emotions now as symptoms – I can have them for good or for shitty reasons (e.g., getting defensive and angry because someone has insulted me vs. getting defensive and angry because someone has called me out on my bullshit), but the emotions themselves are just a signal that I need to figure out what’s going on in my head.

    I wish as a society we had a healthier and less prescriptive approach to emotional expression all around.

  113. On crying: I don’t cry with personal frustration or anger; usually I just shut down or express my words in anger. I’m very good at shutting down and distancing myself emotionally from the situation. If not, I’m sure I would cry at extreme frustration or anger as well.

    I’m like this too depending on the situation. If I’m by myself or with someone I love, I cry a lot in frustration or rage. If I’m in front of other people, I get so rage-filled that everything focuses and I become outside myself.

    I’m kind of the worst of both worlds in terms of emotions and women. I cry very easily over impersonal things such as movies, TV, video games, books, videos on youtube. It can be awkward for my friends to watch a movie or series with. They’re all like, “Why are you crying? Do you want to finish the movie?” Yes! Just let it keep going, I promise, I’ll be cool. I actually really enjoy crying during a good story; it’s a nice feeling, and sometimes, when I’m alone, I’ll read sad things on purpose for that feeling (I’m sure there’s a biochemical explanation, like I’m giving myself a natural high or something ^_^ ).

    But I also don’t cry when it’s considered most appropriate: weddings, funerals, disasters, etc. My mom says I’m the “one she can count on” when she has to deal with these situations because I’ll keep a level head and get things done while she’s crying. So I’m glad she appreciates it, but I think some of my other relatives think I’m a little cold.

  114. (also, love that the response to “you’re being ableist” is to call us an ableist slur with one letter cut out. I guess that makes her less of a dochebg or something)

    Yup, I just LOVE LOVE LOVE Ms. Lekas Miller for using ableist slurs to describe us calling her out on her othering, prejudicial language. I just LOVE her. No homo.

  115. @caperton – Same here. I love Pitbulls and Parolees, anything like that really, but I need IV fluids to make it through an episode.

    Cute YouTube clips, RuPaul’s Drag Race, tv ads… Remember Denver the naughty labrador on YouTube? Yeah…
    /cough

    @Andie – Please tell me there’s gulping, and strangled sobs, and snot? I really shouldn’t have read The Lovely Bones on a flight. Did I say “read”? I should have said “reread”. I thought I’d be ok the second time around!

    The only time I ever manage a dignified solitary tear is when I’m on my bloody own.

    Like others I’ve been accused of manipulation, trying to get my own way, usually by people who don’t (and have admitted it) like to express emotion. I don’t have a choice though.

    Frustration, shock, sadness or extreme happiness will trigger waterworks. I was beaten and mocked for it as a kid and developed harmful coping strategies. Now I own my feelings.

  116. Just Wednesday I broke down in tears in front of a 20 something young woman who works at the studio I do remote broadcasts from. The ISDN connection wasn’t working and it was 5 minutes before I had to be on air. Like many people I constantly feel like my job is on a knife edge, and there seem to be two ways of dealing with this- either screaming at people or internalizing it- hence the tears.

    It never occurred to me though, until, reading this discussion that there may have been something un-masculine about my behavior, nor was I embarrassed about breaking down in front of someone I don’t know well. In fact, I thought it was an important thing for a young person to see before choosing a career in radio, because that’s how it is at times.

  117. I am interested in improving this conversation towards inclusivity.

    You say things like this, and then-

    I gather the author believes the commenters [at feministe] are CRAY.

    -you prove that you don’t really mean them.

    I will look through–I think I missed your earlier post on how to improve this post.

    Jadey and I both pointed out that her comments were on a different post from earlier in the week. That post still remains unaltered. And yet when we question how inclusive you are or point out your ableism, we’re “policing” this blog in a “troubling” manner.

  118. @macavity re: fibro 1. Sorry! Its the worst? 2. Had to comment because I would totally do the same thing except no one seems to get uncomfortable when I mention my fibro unless I’m mis reading the situation. Im still in the ” you don’t look sick.” Rut. I call boo urns on that.

    On crying, I am pretty great at stuffing those old emotions down. Usually if I need a good cry, I will 1st get a horrible sinus infection, then the world will conspire to put me into a situation so awkward that something makes me bawl uncontrollably for an extended period of time after which my sinus problems will clear up. Definitely never cry at the typical sad things though, funerals etc. even though it sometimes makes me feel like a monster, I try to remember that my sad feelings are no less valid without the tears. Sometimes I think we place this high premium I’m crying as the pinnacle of emotional feeling. Something so beautiful, cry. Something so sad, cry. Something so happy, cry. Etc. as if the person who didn’t cry perhaps did not feel as deeply as the crier.

  119. Well, this is an upsetting thread – I was actually just returning to Feministe today after a long hiatus since the Schwyzer debacle. I see things are carrying on as they were when I left.

  120. @Djuna – so what’s the problem for you? Another disgusting OP, or marginalised people objecting to. hurtful characterisations and stereotyping?

    If it’s the former then we’re all in the. same boat. If it’s the latter, then I have two questions.

    1)Did you see the original article?

    2) How are marginalised people supposed to respond to being used as joke fodder or to get ally cred?
    How are people supposed to act when bloggers, behind a wall of privilege, piss on our faces and tell us it’s raining, then call us “Cray” for objecting to having wet clothes and hair?

    @With Love – it’s like a bingo card, isn’t it?

    I especially like “UR so meen, that’s nasty”

    followed up with:

    “Well I have a life, and you’re just mentally damaged* for criticising me”

    * that’s if by “Cray” she means “crazy”. If she clarifies that she meant “Crayfish” then swap “mentally damaged” with “hard-shelled aquatic beasties from the parastacoidea family”.

    That’d be a wicked sick burn though, totally. uncalled for, especially to any commenters who happen to be nephrophidae.

  121. @Partial Human: I mean that the original article was poor, and that the author’s behavior in the comments section and on Twitter has also been poor.

    (I wasn’t sure if by OP you meant the author or one of the first commenters.)

    。。。when bloggers, behind a wall of privilege, piss on our faces and tell us it’s raining, then call us “Cray” for objecting to having wet clothes and hair?

    This.

  122. Anna, I may not agree with everything you wrote in your post, but I respect your right to write it and not be attacked. Do we all have to fucking agree with each other all of the time because we are feminists? NO. I am almost 40 years old, and have proudly called myself a feminist for as long as I can remember. Yet I am always reluctant to post on this site, because women are constantly attacking each other. There is no way in hell I could ever be politically/socially correct enough to post here without being slayed by the “feminists” who seemingly police these posts, just waiting for someone to slip up and say something that they can deconstruct to all hell. That is total bullshit.
    Anna, I’m sorry you were attacked. We don’t always have to agree with each other – bottom line. Just because someone is offended, doesn’t mean they are right.

  123. Just because someone is offended, doesn’t mean they are right.

    Let me guess: you are neither QUILTBAG nor have a psychiatric disability.

  124. I respect your right to write it and not be attacked.

    Aren’t these two different things though: respecting someone’s right to write something – and calling them for the bad/problematic things they write. Except for one horrible attack, all people did was question problems in the text and her replies to the comment. I think that’s just fair.

  125. I respect your right to write it and not be attacked.

    I must have missed hearing about this right to not be criticized. Where, exactly, is it enshrined, again?

  126. Guerilla Mom – gonna ask you what I’ve asked the rest of her fan club. Did you read the original post?

    It’s funny, because “Ooh you’re so politically correct” autocorrects in my head to “lol, minorities. Amirite?”. If she has the right to say busted, appropriative things about marginalised members of society, then people have the right to call her out on it.

    I’m so glad you think that reducing LGBT identities to injokes between straighties is trivial. I’m super-duper thrilled that you think gender essentialism belongs in a space that’s even minutely tilted toward social justice. Oh, and good for you, so bravely dismissing people with mental illnesses. That must be a really tough thing to do in a society that’s so empathetic and supportive of people with disabilities and mental illnesses.

    Anna is not the victim here. WOC are (see the other clusterfuck of a post), QUILTBAG people are, PWD and PWMI are, and women who don’t want to be put in little boxes labelled ‘masculine’ because Anna and her creepy friend think they’re not expressing their emotions in a properly feminine way.

    It’s like FNTT and Notes from my boner had drunk sex, then produced the original post. If you come here to learn about men who are considered superamazinglyprogressivefeminist heroes because they pretend to believe that women are fully human in order to score, them this post was made for you. If you equate “tolerating the existence of gay men, and then flagrantly appropriating queer identities” with “Nobel Prize for ~ally~ cred”, then JACKPOT!

    I take it you’re not a feminist either, given the way you use the term. I know, I know, intersectionality is hard, trying to remember who’s supposed to be fully human these days, and how that could possibly relate to the rights of women.

    Far better to just ditch the whole thing, write activists off as PC Police, or irrational, or angry at the world, because you are so much better than that.

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