In defense of the sanctimonious women's studies set || First feminist blog on the internet

111 thoughts on Wax On, Wax Off

  2. I, for one, am very excited about the chance to attach a fox hair wig to my lady bits. Ooh! I could dye it different colors! Accessorizing, helloooo!

  3. Ironically, BlogHer is promoting a hair removal product from Olay at the top of the banner ad on Feministe right now, including a pop-up add called “A Mom with a Lesson Plan” that says, “Ms. Jill, why do you have man hair?” It took me a second to realize that ‘Ms. Jill’ was the person in the ad, not the blogger extraordinaire! Granted, pubes and facial hair are not the same and facial hair carries more stigma (and has its own set of complicated politics and conversations), but still a telling coincidence about all of the time, effort, and money we are “supposed” to invest in our body hair.

  5. Yes, it’s a bit reminiscent of that “Far Side” cartoon with the three-legged elephant talking on the phone – “They turned it into a WHAT?”

  9. First vagazzling, now furkins…its like the beauty standards industry has been taken over by disturbingly precocious middle schoolers. Its like theres some villain sitting in a volcano base somewhere going “you want to look young? We’ll make your vagina look like it was designed by horny children!”

  10. Jill, where do you find the animal photos? Do you have a file of “animals looking askance at you” or “disapproving animals”?

  11. The Gawker article says the furkin “looks like nightmare porno from the id of Dr. Seuss.” When phrased like that, I could almost find it sexy.

  13. The pubic grooming trend I’d like to see is leaving the hair, but using conditioner on it so it’s fluffy and soft. Seems like it’s a lot easier than waxing & “furkins”

  14. The pubic grooming trend I’d like to see is leaving the hair, but using conditioner on it so it’s fluffy and soft.

    OH MY GOD DO NOT EVEN. Do you know how much time and energy I spend already taking care of the very curly hair on my head? I already go through more than one pint of conditioner every two weeks, and before you know it there will be special deep conditioning treatments marketed for your pubes, and special heated wraps to use with the deep conditioners, and long discussions on curly hair chatboards about the benefits of olive vs. coconut vs. argan oil on pubic hair, and how it’s never OK to put on underpants while your pubic hair is still wet because that will ruin the curls…

    Its like theres some villain sitting in a volcano base somewhere going “you want to look young? We’ll make your vagina look like it was designed by horny children!”

    Awesome. Totally awesome. “Next up, the newest pubic trend: how to glue elbow macaroni to your vulva in pleasing patterns! “

  15. Awesome. Totally awesome. “Next up, the newest pubic trend: how to glue elbow macaroni to your vulva in pleasing patterns! “

    At this point the only thing that would surprise me about that is that you’re suggesting macaroni and glue rather than Spongebob-branded white rhino ivory.

  16. o_O
    The words: they are failing me.

    After the Seuss reference in the article, I fear I may never look at “The Lorax” the same way again.

  17. WHY DOES IT LOOK LIKE SHE’S USING A TROLL INSTEAD OF A FIG LEAF?!

    (Sorry for getting all shouty, but for the love of all that is holy: NO.)

  18. Is it common for women to pay for these kinds of services? It seems to me like something I’d want to do at home, in privacy.

    Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t see how you can tolerate a stranger touching you anywhere near your private areas. Only my physicians and my girlfriend can touch me. Anybody else–and this includes the TSA–gets knocked smooth the fuck out.

  19. I’m going to choose to believe that, much like rainbows parties, some idiot thought this might be true somewhere or something and doesn’t actually exist.

    Until, of course, you put it on the internet. It has now been wished into being.

  20. This is secretly an “Onion” article, right? Enough people actually buy this stuff to make it profitable? 😮

  21. Why fox fur, of all unholy things? Why not peacock feathers, marabou, six-inch angora corkscrew fringe? Why not at least a nod to the ridiculousness of the concept?

  22. But why fox fur? When you’re going to just bleach it and dye it some fluorescent color anyway?! Who gives a crap that it’s fox? It’s just…there are no words for the amount of stupid.

  23. Sigh. You know, I don’t care what anyone does with their bits, but this pressure on women is sexist bullshit. This idea that women’s pubic hair, leg hair, armpit hair is eeew nasty disgusting, but men’s is just fine, seriously pisses me off. Yes I know most women don’t shave their faces and men do, that’s because most women don’t have facial hair; if a woman does I assure you that’s considered disgusting too by mainstream society.

  24. It’s not just that our pubic hair is disgusting, but that some animal’s hair is BETTER. I mean, what?

  25. Yes I know most women don’t shave their faces and men do, that’s because most women don’t have facial hair; if a woman does I assure you that’s considered disgusting too by mainstream society.

    Actually, in some populations, most of the women have facial hair and most are rigorous in removing it. Far more rigorous than men ever have to be because we’re supposed to be pretending that we don’t have any.

  26. And that last post was way to serious for this thread, so I’d like to note that, despite the absurdity of this whole pubic hair business, the color of the fur in that article is AMAZING and I’d totally like to get my hair that color. And by hair I mean of course the hair on my head because what in the living hell…

  29. How ’bout dying it grey and outfoxing the sexists and ageists?
    I do feel sorry for the poor foxes, though. Lillian Hellman and King Sol couldn’t have imagined this in an opium dream.

  34. Marksman…
    Is it common for women to pay for these kinds of services? It seems to me like something I’d want to do at home, in privacy.

    I know several women who pay to have their bikini area waxed. There’s actually a shop called The Pretty Kitty near my house that’s a ‘full service waxing boutique specializing in Brazilian.’

    Only my physicians and my girlfriend can touch me. Anybody else–and this includes the TSA–gets knocked smooth the fuck out.

    Oh, random internet tough guy. My day would be empty without you informing all and sundry how you’re going to beat someone up because of some horrid offense against you.

  35. Jenna

    I’ve been wondering what next, now I sort of wish I didn’t know.

    Portable, flower-scented feminine wipes made from the skin of endangered baby monk seals.

  36. I find that most of these genital “grooming trends” would be less distressing if positioned as what they obviously are, which is a kink. Is wearing a piece of fur or crystals on one’s pubic mound less weird than, say, wearing a chastity device? No, not really, but people don’t go around saying that chastity devices are a trend or that everyone else should be doing it. The furkin people can form their own Fetlife group, and then the non fur wearers with the same kink can form the no-cruelty faux furkin group and they can all discuss and practice their kink in peace. But it’s not a grooming trend. It’s a kink.

  37. Oh, random internet tough guy. My day would be empty without you informing all and sundry how you’re going to beat someone up because of some horrid offense against you.

    I’d like to see the video of Mr. Internet Tough Guy taking on and “knocking smooth the fuck out” a bunch of TSA agents and cops for patting him down.

  39. The interconnections between the exploitation of women and animals remain profound…

    I actually wrote a paper for a class on the oppression of foxes in Japanese folk stories and the parallels to the oppression of women. I haven’t done enough research on European traditions, but I know they’re there (I mean, what with how women are called “vixens” and “foxy”).

  40. Portable, flower-scented feminine wipes made from the skin of endangered baby monk seals.

    If only they weren’t flower scented and marketed as “feminine wipes” I would love to use them to put out my $100 Bill-lit Cuban cigars. Perhaps we can get the fine folks at Axe or Dr. Pepper 10 to work something out that allows me to conspicuously consume without simultaneously threatening my manhood*.

    *manhood being not my status as a man but the titanium and elephant-hide replacement foreskin/genital protection device I bought last week.

  41. Recently, this fella I was on a date with told me he was totally okay with me not shaving my legs or underarms, but if we were to continue dating, he insisted that I must remove all of my pubic hair. How generous of him, doncha think?

    I told him if he didn’t like my body the way it was, he didn’t have to have to date me, and that I was totally okay with that.

    This is the same guy who called me a capitalist.

    I kind of want to bust out those feathers, though, on some unsuspecting fellow, just to see how someone might react to it if that was the first time they ever got to see me sans pants. I would love to surprise the hell out of someone like that.

  43. manhood being not my status as a man but the titanium and elephant-hide replacement foreskin/genital protection device I bought last week

    Pssshhhhtt. The cool guys have rf/gp devices made of the soft, soft ears of tiger kittens, lubricated ever so slightly with jelly of baby-manatee eye.

  44. Pssshhhhtt. The cool guys have rf/gp devices made of the soft, soft ears of tiger kittens, lubricated ever so slightly with jelly of baby-manatee eye.

    Please, EVERYBODY has one of those nowadays. I’m a genital decoration leader, not a genital decoration follower.

  45. Pssshhhhtt. The cool guys have rf/gp devices made of the soft, soft ears of tiger kittens, lubricated ever so slightly with jelly of baby-manatee eye.

    Please, EVERYBODY has one of those nowadays. I’m a genital decoration leader, not a genital decoration follower.

  46. What is the point of shaving one’s pubic hair, and then attaching fake pubic hair? I can see the logic of shaving it, since shaving reduces the rather pungent odor that can otherwise emanate from this region. Wouldn’t fake pubic hair promote body odor?

  49. I can see the logic of shaving it, since shaving reduces the rather pungent odor that can otherwise emanate from this region.

    Huh?! Mild soap and water to the outer regions. The inner parts are self cleaning. If you have a “pungent odor” that isn’t cleared up by that protocol, you should see your doctor.

  50. I kind of want to bust out those feathers, though, on some unsuspecting fellow, just to see how someone might react to it if that was the first time they ever got to see me sans pants. I would love to surprise the hell out of someone like that.

    Done with the deliberate sense of it being over-the-top surprising, would probably be kind of endearing in a theatrical way.

  51. if we were to continue dating, he insisted that I must remove all of my pubic hair

    I live under a rock, and I was really hoping that this wasn’t a thing. But it is. Oh dear.

  52. Fur? Feathers? How 10 minutes ago *yawn*

    The newest, most fabulous trend is affixing fruit to the area so that one may shimmy around singing ” I’m a Chiquita Banana”.

    Now THAT’S entertainment, people!

  53. I live under a rock, and I was really hoping that this wasn’t a thing. But it is. Oh dear.

    I remember being horrified when I realized that at most of the women in the room with me regularly got eyebrow waxing or plucking or had some regimen for dealing with their eyebrows. I knew it was a thing, just not that it was so wide-spread.

  54. Just when you thought it can’t get any wierder. I would say they couldn’t possibly make real money off of this, but someone made a lot of money from selling the pet rock. So don’t count them out.

  55. I kind of want to bust out those feathers, though, on some unsuspecting fellow, just to see how someone might react to it if that was the first time they ever got to see me sans pants. I would love to surprise the hell out of someone like that

    I think this would be even better if they were done like a magician’s feather flower bouquet, so that, when the underpants come off, the flowers sort of erupt outwards.

  56. I live under a rock, and I was really hoping that this wasn’t a thing. But it is. Oh dear.

    Sadly, yes. I think it’s a backlash thing. Quite a few guys in my age group (late 20s to mid 30s) have some crazy expectations. I’ve been told that I need to shave or wax all of [this] hair, dye [that] hair bright red, grow my hair longer, cut it shorter, wear/don’t wear makeup, gain weight, lose weight, etc. in order to be dateable. The latest was a guy the other night on a first date who actually had the nerve to parade out the old “I just think of blonds as being ditzy” line.

    Whatever happened to it’s my body, I’ll do whatever I want with it, and if you’re not attracted to it, you’re free to go date someone else? I mean, it’s clearly a sense of entitlement/control thing, but they just don’t know who they’re dealing with!

  57. “if we were to continue dating, he insisted that I must remove all of my pubic hair”

    Just tell him, “Sure sweetie, soon as you do the same.” That’s how I deal with these things. (TMI ahead, kiddos.) Oh, he wants me to swallow? Fine, sweetie, if you lick me clean after we have sex next time. Anal sex? Super, let me get my biggest strap on and you can go first, darling.

  58. anna…

    Anal sex? Super, let me get my biggest strap on and you can go first, darling.

    Obviously, I have no idea how large your biggest strap-on is, but you seem to be suggesting that if a partner asks for anal, your response is to demand they experience physical trauma.

  60. Just tell him, “Sure sweetie, soon as you do the same.

    I don’t really want to get into a tit for tat. I just say, “no, I’m not going to do that. Take it or leave it.”

  61. PeggyLuWho @ 56,

    LOL, I think a lot of guys who make comments like that about their girlfriend’s style and grooming get furniture and other household item thrown their way. In fact if you had long hair and then went out and got a flat top crew cut and asked your husband how it looks, there is only one correct answer. If you buy a new dress and tell your husband you really like it, and try it on, and show it to him, and ask how it looks; there is only one correct answer.

    Regarding the pubic hair issue: I think because so many young women wax or shave everything now days, it’s possible that men who have only encountered that have developed a fetish for it. And it’s not just men; I met a bi woman who will only have sex with shaved women. I grew up expecting to see pubic hair. Not having it was considered very kinky.

    Anna @ 57,

    Good sarcastic humor makes my day, thanks! One thing you should be a aware of is that men are waxing now as well; it’s called manscaping. A good source of keeping up on trends like this is the London Daily Mail site. A woman wrote a story on it. I’ve heard some women say they like guys to be very trimmed or shaved, but I don’t think it will catch on. It would take too much work and concentration not to nick or cut oneself. Cutting ones face while shaving is one thing, getting a cut there is a definite OUCH!! OK, women who have men that shave it have at me.

  62. PeggyLuWho @ 42 and Ledasmom @ 43,

    Holy crap!! I am sooo unhip!! What are these things and do they really exist? I want to look it up, but I’m at work, and afraid a picture would pop up in my crowded work environment, and there’s a sexual harassment claim right there. For GP device, are you talking a cup like a man wears during sports?

  63. Joe from an alternate universe….

    LOL, I think a lot of guys who make comments like that about their girlfriend’s style and grooming get furniture and other household item thrown their way.

    These comments have been coming out on first dates, so they haven’t even made it to the boyfriend stage yet, and they’re laying down ultimatums. It’s very not sexy. I don’t think it’s a fetish thing at all, but a lot of it has to do with (especially when we’re talking pubic hair) the idea that women’s natural bodies are gross/unclean/unruly and need to be cleaned, spackled, waxed, and treated to be acceptable. It’s more body policing. Fetish is a word that is so highly overused and misapplied.

  64. Anal sex? Super, let me get my biggest strap on and you can go first, darling.

    I answer with “what size strap-on would you like me to get?” And then if they balk at that suggestion, I tell them I’m not interested in doing anything for them that they find it beneath them to do for me.

    And I’m done with them, because I really don’t consider “putting up with something to get something in return” to be any sort of ideal model for sexual behavior. Not into receiving anal sex from me but wanting me to receive it from them? Thanks but no thanks, I’ll keep myself occupied until I meet somebody with kinks that better suit mine. (And more equitable ones too, for that matter.)

  65. PeggyLuWho,

    Wow, no second date there I take it. Even if one doesn’t like someones appearance it’s just plain rude to comment on it, and way out of place to make suggestions.

    I was just trying to say that some guys may get to the point where shaved is so common they are turned off by pubic hair. Despite the best efforts at accepting people, society still seems to want to find a range of normal.

  66. PeggyLuWho,

    BTW, I did look up Genital Protector, and do realize that’s it’s a groin cup. The name through me off. We just used to call it a goin cup or just cup for short.

    But foreskin replacement! WTF!! Where did you find out about this? is there a web site for crazy, stupid things men do? I wonder how much more I don’t know, LOL These guys need therapy. They’ve become even more obsessed with their penis than most men. And a picture of a naked man did pop up; luckily it’s late. They look ridiculous. This is snake oil to the max. I don’t think any urologist would recommend wearing one. Those that have men that wear them, have at me.

  67. Kierra said:

    If you have a “pungent odor” that isn’t cleared up by that protocol, you should see your doctor.

    My reply:

    I was referring to the odor that emanates from the female pubic area during menstruation. It can get rather pungent if not dealt with very carefully. Since shaving the armpits reduces body odor from sweat, shaving the pubic area should do the same for any natural odors from there.

  68. I was referring to the odor that emanates from the female pubic area during menstruation.

    I am menstruating even as I type, and I can’t say I notice any difference in odor than that which is usually there, which is to say that yeah, there’s an aroma if you stick your nose down there. Every guy I’ve ever slept with found that aroma a turn-on.

  69. I was just trying to say that some guys may get to the point where shaved is so common they are turned off by pubic hair. Despite the best efforts at accepting people, society still seems to want to find a range of normal.

    Your cause and effect are backwards. Society isn’t adjusting to women’s standards of hair removal; society is pressuring women to hair removal.

    And there’s nothing new about it – http://www.getwaxing.com/history.htm

  70. I was referring to the odor that emanates from the female pubic area during menstruation. It can get rather pungent if not dealt with very carefully. Since shaving the armpits reduces body odor from sweat, shaving the pubic area should do the same for any natural odors from there.

    I still wouldn’t describe that smell as pungent (and neither does my husband), just different. And I’m pretty sure he’s the only one who notices (being the only one getting close enough to smell it).

    Besides, any odor during menstruation isn’t coming from sweat, it’s coming from the vagina. I’ll give you that shaving might make it a little easier to wash the outer areas, but it isn’t going to do anything about the source and is likely to have little noticeable effect. More frequent pad changes or using tampons and/or a diva cup instead would probably give much more effective results.

  71. Since shaving the armpits reduces body odor from sweat, shaving the pubic area should do the same for any natural odors from there.

    You know, I’m not a particularly sweaty person, so I may be wrong, but I’ve had long pit hairs and shaved pits and I didn’t notice a different in upkeep. In fact, if anything, having pit hair made sweating less irritating because the sweat was wicked away from my skin. I think that may be a myth stemming from the fact that men tend to have pit hair and also tend to sweat more. But, as I said, I don’t sweat particularly much, so ymmv.

  72. Obviously, I have no idea how large your biggest strap-on is, but you seem to be suggesting that if a partner asks for anal, your response is to demand they experience physical trauma.

    I proposed that to a lover and his response was, “But you wouldn’t get anything out of that!”

    I just laughed and I asked him why he thought me being on the receiving end would be any different. That, and I told him I would TOTALLY get something out of the giving end! LOL Maybe not an orgasm, but most definitely some sort of pleasure. *devilish grin*

  73. Since shaving the armpits reduces body odor from sweat, shaving the pubic area should do the same for any natural odors from there.

    Bad odor is caused by bacteria, so if you keep clean, you shouldn’t have a problem. *snuggles with clean armpit hair*

  74. Since folks are talking about strap-on fucking …

    the movement and pressure of the base against the genitals of the wearer can produce orgasm (depending on person, anatomy, fit and circumstance). The folks I know who are the insertive partner in a lot of strap-on fucking, mostly cis women, all frequently come that way.

  76. This discussion just makes me sad. I am a labor & delivery RN, have been for nearly ten years, and just about every patient that I have taken care of feels bad about their body, hair, etc, and are always apologizing to me (!) about not having shaved/waxed etc. when in labor. Please. I do my best to reassure them that we as health care professionals do not notice or care, and most patients then relax and feel more secure that for once they are not being judged.

  77. An update on ferkins, for all those who were wondering:

    http://jezebel.com/5877858/how-to-apply-a-fur-merkin-courtesy-of-a-real-housewife

    Everything you never wanted to know about ex-Real Housewife Cindy Barshop’s fox fur temporary merkin, but were too appalled to ask, is now revealed. Basically, Barshop’s salon waxes a woman, shaves an appropriate quantity of fur off a piece of fox hide, and glues the blunt ends of the fur to the client’s skin. “It’s a special glue,” says Barshop. The whole thing adds $140 to the cost of a wax, and lasts about three or four days. Barshop’s salon can also stick some feathers down there for an additional $110. Festive! And you’d better believe she’s personally tested every one of the elaborate topiary procedures that she sells to customers. We are left with just one remaining, and sadly unanswered question: how does one bathe? [The Cut]

  78. How do women feel about hair on a man’s back? It’s the opinion of most men that women don’t like it. Do any of you find Robin Williams’ fury bear back sexy?

  79. This discussion just makes me sad. I am a labor & delivery RN, have been for nearly ten years, and just about every patient that I have taken care of feels bad about their body, hair, etc, and are always apologizing to me (!) about not having shaved/waxed etc. when in labor.

    These women, they do know you’re going to see them poop, right?

  80. These women, they do know you’re going to see them poop, right?

    Yes. In fact, I tell them that they are pushing right if they DO poop.

  81. Do any of you find Robin Williams’ fury bear back sexy?

    Every single thing about Robin Williams irritates me, so even if he had the most objectively sexy back in the history of manhood, I would find it yucky.

  83. I don’t find excessive hair on men particularly sexy. Even a lot of armpit and leg hair is a bit of a turn off. A hairy back is quite icky. But, you know, if a man is born with these things then I’ll live with it. I can look past it, accept the man for who he is as a person and not just his body. I’d never imagine asking a man to shave himself to please me.

  84. EG @ 81,

    LOL, point taken. But I take it the sexiest back would be hairless or waxed?

    PeggyLuWho @ 81,

    Interesting… and kinky!

    This is probably TMI for most but one of the last straws in my now defunct 4 year relationship with my ex was that I was paying a lot of money, $3000, to have the hair lasered off of my back, another $500 for shoulders and upper arms. It’s not that she likes back hair – she didn’t care – but she accused me of trying to be more attractive to other women, and wanted me to cancel the contract. Treatments hurt like hell and leave burn marks, but I’m seeing results.

  85. EG @ 81,
    LOL. Point Taken. But I take it the objectively sexy back is hairless or waxed?

    PeggyLuWho @ 81,
    Interesting… and kinky!

    Essi ,
    Thanks for your honesty. Most men assume most women feel this way. Keep in mind that most men who have no back hair in their
    20s will eventually get it their 30s and 40s.

    This is probably TMI for most, but one of the last straws in my now defunct 4 year relationship with my ex is that I was having the hair lasered off of my back. It’s not that she liked back hair – she didn’t express an opinion on it – but she didn’t like the money, $3500. She also accused me of trying to be more attractive to other women.
    The treatments are showing results, but they hurt like hell and leave a super bad sunburn. The woman who sold me the package tried to convince me to have my chest hair removed at a later meeting. When I told her I like my chest hair and that I think a lot of women like chest hair, she said that may be true, but yours is too thick in the center. She said they could thin it and shape it. I didn’t go for it, but I read reviews later from other customers that that is her main sales tactic; let me see you with your shirt off and I’ll make you feel like shit.

  88. Branwen,

    LOL, yep, bad example.

    QLH,

    It’s not about men; I’m looking for double standards, holding one set of rules for oneself and another set for everyone else.

  89. It’s not about men; I’m looking for double standards, holding one set of rules for oneself and another set for everyone else.

    Dudes like women with hairy backs? Let’s say you got the result you wanted (i.e. everyone was grossed out by dudes with hairy backs) – how exactly is this exposing a double standard?

  90. PrettyAmiable,

    LOL. no, you’re taking the analogy too literally. I’m comparing men who don’t like excessive pubic, under arm, or leg hair with women who don’t like excessive back hair. If you have a preference on how much body hair the opposite sex has, but don’t recognize their preference, then you have a double standard.

  92. Fine, bud. Let’s say,as a generic hypothetical for US society since I can’t really comment on hair norms outside the US that men and women all want each other to have hairless backs. When men all feel pressured to be entirely hairless from the neck down, let’s chat about double standards. I don’t think you know what the term “double standards” means.

  93. I remember one dude (who had asked me out at one point, but I had turned him down) telling me that he wished I shaved my armpits (during a stage in my life when I wasn’t shaving them). He happened to be wearing eyeliner at the time, which I pointed out to him. I believe that is more of a double standard than hairlessness, where he was allowed to groom himself however he saw fit, but I was supposed to stay within some gendered norm. Oh, goths.

  94. Men’s grooming standards versus women’s grooming standards? Not the same. Different expectations. Different ways those expectations are enforced/policed.

    Men’s body hair versus women’s body hair? Not the same. One reason for that: patriarchy. Your analogy breaks down there.

    Another way it also breaks down? Men’s backs versus women’s genitals: not the same.

    Do people have preferences about their sex partners’ body hair? Sure, some of them.

    Do I expect that there is a product of fake baby seal fur to replace men’s natural back hair after they’ve shaved it to meet patriarchal beauty standards? No.

  95. LOL, point taken. But I take it the sexiest back would be hairless or waxed?

    I’m not a big fan of body hair on men in general, personally. The men I’ve been most attracted to, looking back on my many trips out to the lighthouse and back, have been generally less hairy than what I am given to believe is average. That said, I haven’t spent a lot of time thinking about imaginary disembodied masculine backs, so while I’d guess that the type of man I’d be attracted to would probably have a relatively unhairy back, I can’t actually come up with a platonic ideal of a man’s back to describe.

    that is her main sales tactic; let me see you with your shirt off and I’ll make you feel like shit.

    Gee, that must have been really shocking, to have that used on you as a sales tactic. You know what that is for women? The fucking norm. Today a salesgirl (I use the term advisedly; she was about thirteen or something) said to me “You have great hair! I bet it looks terrific when it’s blown out straight!”

    I’m comparing men who don’t like excessive pubic, under arm, or leg hair with women who don’t like excessive back hair.

    I’m curious: what is “excessive” pubic hair? Or armpit hair? Or leg hair? Because for women these days, the alleged problem is any pubic, armpit, or leg hair.

  96. PrettyAmiable,

    It seems you’ve skewed your argument by implying that women’s body hair should be the template for what’s normal for both sexes. Women don’t have hair on their chests or faces; how does that fit into your theory? As far as being completely shaved, especially the pubic area, if man asks a woman to shave, she can always say “no”. I think most men would not leave a relationship just for that.

    Shfree,

    Eyeliner? Wow, I would have thought you’d have run as fast as you could.

    QLH,

    “Another way it also breaks down? Men’s backs versus women’s genitals: not the same.”

    Regarding hair I need more detail? Why?

    “Do I expect that there is a product of fake baby seal fur to replace men’s natural back hair after they’ve shaved it to meet patriarchal beauty standards? No.”

    This product was developed by women. I don’t think a man would have ever thought of this.

    EG,

    Thanks for your honesty. Like I said before men assume most women feel that way.

    Regarding the sales tactic, that was just the half of it. It was extremely high pressure – you have to do this today – this deal won’t be available tomorrow.

    I like pubic hair, even a lot. I don’t find shaved women that attractive, but won’t walk away from it. I will say I prefer her to stop shaving.

  97. Women don’t have hair on their chests or faces; how does that fit into your theory?

    …because society pressures the women that have both hair on their chests and faces into shaving/waxing. Your ignorance does not represent reality. Women (sometimes but I really think typically) have these things.

    if man asks a woman to shave, she can always say “no”. I think most men would not leave a relationship just for that.

    This is true for every example of back hair you can come up with. Where is your non-existent double standard?

  98. Regarding the sales tactic, that was just the half of it. It was extremely high pressure – you have to do this today – this deal won’t be available tomorrow.

    Take my word for it: this is very, very commonly used on women. You’re not reporting anything I and my female friends haven’t experienced on a regular basis.

    I would caution you not to use my preferences as a blueprint for all women or to support any pop culture ideas about what women like when it comes to not being very hairy, unless you also want to do that for my preference for short men (I don’t want a man to be more than two inches taller than me; I’d prefer him to be my height or a couple inches shorter, actually).

  99. Shfree,

    Eyeliner? Wow, I would have thought you’d have run as fast as you could.

    Guys in Eyeliner? Hot (to me, anyway). Guys in eyeliner insisting the women in their lives adhere to gender norms… not so hot. Annoying.

  100. This product was developed by women. I don’t think a man would have ever thought of this.

    …so? Women make up more than half the population. If we refused to police ourselves, patriarchy would crumble.

  101. Women don’t have hair on their chests or faces

    Really? What planet do you live on? (And pardon me for mentioning it, but please don’t forget that the term “women” as used around here includes trans women, many of whom do at least start out with both, and often are unable to completely eliminate either despite strenuous efforts. I don’t think I need to explain the degree of pressure they — along with many non-trans women — are subjected to in that regard, simply to be perceived as women in the first place. By the world in general; never mind partners.)

  102. Yes. And while cis women with naturally hairless nipples do exist, most women I’ve discussed the topic with pluck.

    Speaking of plucking, of course, there are eyebrows to be considered. God forbid any part of a woman’s face be too hairy–and of course, there’s an ethnic bias in all of this hair-removal stuff as well.

  103. There are women of many ethnicities who have facial hair. There are women on certain kinds of medication who have facial hair. EG is right about some people plucking nipple hair.

    If you think women don’t have chest or facial hair, that’s because we have years and years under our belts getting really damn good at hiding it because people who go ‘ew gross!’

    I used to take a lot of prednizone because for my health issues it was the only medication I could afford. I had all sorts of side effects including a huge weight gain, bone loss and other fun things. The thing that made me finally run to my doctor and beg him to put me on something else, no matter the financial cost? Fucking facial hair.

    One of the differences between guy hair and girl hair? For guys it might be embarassing to have ‘too much’ back hair. For women it can be fucking mortifying to have ANY back hair. Or Chest hair.

  104. I used to take a lot of prednizone because for my health issues it was the only medication I could afford. I had all sorts of side effects including a huge weight gain, bone loss and other fun things. The thing that made me finally run to my doctor and beg him to put me on something else, no matter the financial cost? Fucking facial hair.

    I hear you. When I had extremely serious complications two years ago beginning a couple of day following GRS, and spent the next six days lying in a Montreal emergency room (in a hospital where none of the people on duty at night seemed to understand the English words for complicated things like “bedpan” and “hurts”), all the while being fairly sure that given my condition I wouldn’t make it through the emergency intestinal surgery that the doctors thought would probably be necessary, I have to admit that I kept thinking not so much about dying per se (except insofar as I knew how upset and frightened my son was), but about the embarrassment of dying with visible hair on my face: I hadn’t had been able to do anything about it since before the surgery, and there’s still enough that I need to with some regularity. I kept setting off all the alarms attached to the IV’s in my arms, by bending my arms to examine my face in the mirror, and/or trying to use a pair of tweezers. With little success. It was humiliating, especially given that nobody in the hospital had ever seen or treated an immediately post-GRS patient before.* With me not at my best to represent My People!

    *Neither had anyone at Mt. Sinai Hospital in NYC, after I finally was able to get out of Montreal by paying an ambulance $2000 (good thing they took credit cards) to take me to New York City. That was a fun ride! And one of the first things the doctors said after I got there was “we’ve never had a patient like you before. We don’t know how to take care of you.” Me: that’s nice; I’ll manage. Can I have a mirror, please?

  105. Neither had anyone at Mt. Sinai Hospital in NYC, after I finally was able to get out of Montreal by paying an ambulance $2000 (good thing they took credit cards) to take me to New York City. That was a fun ride! And one of the first things the doctors said after I got there was “we’ve never had a patient like you before. We don’t know how to take care of you.”

    Wow. Every part of that story is amazing. And…I don’t like to hear those words from my hairdresser, let alone a doctor. I hope Mt. Sinai has improved since then.

  106. Hell, I hope Montreal has improved. (Although I wonder what hospital, because it would shock me for every major hospital in this city to be unfamiliar with GRS.)

  107. Shfree,

    Eyeliner? Wow, I would have thought you’d have run as fast as you could.

    What the fuck, dude. I hope you can’t possibly be serious with that. I have yet to say what I am and what I am not attracted to wrt to jumping on another person, at least in this thread, so you are being awfully presumptuous as to what and what I do not find alluring in another human being.

    And just because of that, I’m gonna be ornery and keep that shit to myself, and say what I do and what I do not find attractive in another is no one’s damn business.

  108. I wonder what hospital, because it would shock me for every major hospital in this city to be unfamiliar with GRS.)

    It was the Hôpital du Sacré-Cœur, which happened to have the closest ER to the clinic where I had the surgery. I’m sure most doctors at most hospitals know what that particular surgery is; they’ve just never had to take care of someone in the immediate aftermath before. Maybe there’s an exception or two, but most of the handful of surgeons who perform that surgery in North America (none in New York, or I wouldn’t have gone to Montreal in the first place) don’t do so in hospitals. It’s not as if most doctors learn anything about trans people at all in medical school, let alone anything that specific. In any event, at both hospitals people were, for obvious reasons, more concerned whether I was going to die from an intestinal obstruction than with my immediate post-operative care, so that kind of went by the wayside as long as I was too sick to manage it myself. Although the surgeon did send a nurse over from his clinic a few times to look in on me. I suspect that if I’d had better post-operative care in general (as opposed to the surgeon going off almost immediately for a long holiday weekend and nobody having the good sense to consult a GI specialist when bad things started to happen), things might have turned out better for me in general, but I’ll stop there. I don’t want to get sued!

  109. As far as being completely shaved, especially the pubic area, if man asks a woman to shave, she can always say “no”. I think most men would not leave a relationship just for that.

    I think I already said that it was presented to me as a condition of getting into a relationship. Looking back up-thread. Yep. I did.

    Seriously, we’re not making this shit up.

  110. I don’t want to get sued!

    Wait, what? Can you get sued for pointing out deficiencies in your medical care?

  111. I apologize if this is difficult to read as my phone is fighting me over the formatting.

    Wait, what? Can you get sued for pointing out deficiencies in your medical care?

    Yep. Slander and libel. Not that uncommon for hospitals to sue unhappy patients who have the temerity to complain publicly.

    Fox fur pubes? Please. Only top quality chinchilla is getting near my junk.

    Also, I bet that smells lovely after a hot summer’s day.

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