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Wife of a Preacher-Man

This article in the Times about the historical view of priests’ wives is fascinating for a lot of reasons, but I particularly enjoy how it butts up against modern visions of human sexuality. In white middle-class Christian American culture, it’s taken as biological truth that men are the sexually aggressive ones, and while white women’s bodies are tempting and women can be slutty, white female sexuality isn’t about wanting sex so much as embodying sex (non-white women get different treatment, as either asexual or as insatiable hussies). Priests’ wives, apparently, were a little too close to power for comfort:

By the time of the First Lateran Council, the priest’s wife had become a symbol of wantonness and defilement. The reason was that during this period the nature of the host consecrated at Mass received greater theological scrutiny. Medieval theologians were in the process of determining that bread and wine, at the moment of consecration in the hands of an ordained priest at the altar, truly became the body and blood of Jesus Christ. The priest who handled the body and blood of Christ should therefore be uncontaminated lest he defile the sacred corpus.

The priest’s wife was an obvious danger. Her wanton desire, suggested the 11th-century monk Peter Damian, threatened the efficacy of consecration. He chastised priests’ wives as “furious vipers who out of ardor of impatient lust decapitate Christ, the head of clerics,” with their lovers. According to the historian Dyan Elliott, priests’ wives were perceived as raping the altar, a perpetration not only of the priest but also of the whole Christian community.

The priest’s nuclear family was also seen as a risk to the stability of the church. His children represented a threat to laypersons, who feared that their endowments might be absorbed into the hands of the priest’s offspring to create a rival clerical dynasty. A celibate priest would thus ensure donations from the neighboring landed aristocracy. Furthermore, the priest’s wife was often accused, along with her children, of draining the church’s resources with her extravagance and frivolity. Pope Leo IX attempted to remedy this problem in the 11th century by decreeing that the wives and children of priests must serve in his residence at the Lateran Palace in Rome.

Given this history, I caution the clerical wife to be on guard as she enters her role as a sacerdotal attaché. Her position is an anomalous one and, as the Vatican has repeatedly insisted, one that will not receive permanent welcome in the church. That said, for the time being, it will be prudent for the Vatican to honor the dignity of the wives and children of its freshly ordained married priests. And here, I suggest, a real conversation about the continuation of priestly celibacy might begin.

Until then, priests’ wives should beware a religious tradition that views them, in the words of Damian, as “the clerics’ charmers, devil’s choice tidbits, expellers from paradise, virus of minds, sword of soul, wolfbane to drinkers, poison to companions, material of sinning, occasion of death … the female chambers of the ancient enemy, of hoopoes, of screech owls, of night owls, of she-wolves, of blood suckers.”

I have always wanted to be a wolfbane to drinkers.


55 thoughts on Wife of a Preacher-Man

  1. I want one of those old-timey ink line drawings of some of that imagery…. a naked woman humping the altar with the descriptive names from the last paragraph down the side. I think it would be a fabulous conversation piece for my Catholic family that comes to visit.

  2. I like “devil’s choice tidbits” as well. 🙂

    It’s funny how this was never seen as a problem in the Orthodox Church, or indeed in the Eastern Catholic churches that are in communion with Rome. They’ve been happily ordaining married men for a couple thousand years.

  3. I always thought that eliminating priestly celibacy would be good for the priests and the congregants (getting marriage advice from a man who has forsworn the institution…no thanks). But I never considered the impact on the wives…funny that.

    Of course in my opinion, the whole institution of the Catholic church should be scrapped, but meanwhile, we’ll work with what we have.

  4. It was interesting reading this article, coming from the perspective of the daughter of a Protestant pastor. While I like to think that my church is a little more forward-thinking than 11th century Catholicism, the article brushed on a few familiar themes, namely the laypeople’s distrust. It’s a weird dynamic in some pastor’s families today, where we’re considered extensions of the pastor (such that any misdeeds reflect poorly on him/her) and not “really” members of the church. Dealing with it usually seems to involve making oneself small, quiet, and inoffensive for long periods of time. It’s telling that one of the most common accusations used against PKs is that we’re desperate for attention. Meanwhile, I’ve known pastors who have actually lost their jobs because of something their spouses did. Pastors’ spouses are the workhorses of the church–expected to pitch in with absolutely everything–but at the same time are discouraged from taking any positions of real leadership. It all seems to stem from the same place–parishioners who want to put clergy on a pedastal and at the same time try to control every aspect of their lives.

    I’m really not as bitter as I sound;), I just get the sense that this all comes from the desire to control the religion by controling the clergy.

    In other news, I wonder what 11th century monks had against owls?

  5. I wonder why there are so many articles about this that don’t mention at all, even in passing the reason why there is a new crop of priests’ wives in the Catholic church?

    It’s not particularly nice, or Christian, or charitable, but I have too much anger at these people to ever care if they feel welcomed in the Catholic church. These are men and woman who are utterly lacking any sort of moral commitment, driven by blind hate.

    It would be a shame for Catholics if this is what gets people talking about celibacy, to have their examples of how to have a non-celibate priesthood be a group of bigots with no integrity.

  6. “These are men and woman who are utterly lacking any sort of moral commitment, driven by blind hate…a group of bigots with no integrity.”

    I’m sincerely sorry if that’s been your experience of people joining the Ordinariate, but either way that’s a massively inflammatory thing to say without any explanatory comments. In all the articles I’ve read, there has been reasonable explanation of why groups of Anglicans are joining the Catholic Church. (Briefly, Pope Benedict has made provision for groups of Anglicans who feel unable to accept the Anglican Communion’s ordination of women to be received into full communion with Rome, while preserving their distinct patrimony. Anglican priests who are already married may apply for a dispensation which allows them to be ordained. Since the c.12th, the majority of Catholic priests have been celibate, although as a previous commenter noted, Eastern Rite churches have maintained married priests).

    It’s patently false to claim that, these Anglo-Catholics are “lacking any sort of moral commitment”. Regardless of your personal feelings about Apostolic succession etc, these people have undergone considerable personal sacrifice, and in may cases, the breakdown of important relationships as a result of this decision. I’m not sure of the exact situation in North America, but in the UK, clergy have relinquished their pensions and housing when leaving the Anglican church, and are having the raise families on incrediby low wages. The annual stiped for a RC priest is £8,000.

  7. …..because they hate gay people. Let’s not forget that or gloss over it. That is the context in which this is happening.

    If this is truly motivated by a thoughtful, prayerful belief in the truth of Catholic doctrines, and a thoughtful decision to return to the mother church, why is it happening now, en masse, exactly on the heels of the large scale ordination of gay people in the Episcopal church?

  8. …..because they hate gay people. Let’s not forget that or gloss over it. That is the context in which this is happening.

    If this is truly motivated by a thoughtful, prayerful belief in the truth of Catholic doctrines, and a thoughtful decision to return to the mother church, why is it happening now, en masse, exactly on the heels of the large scale ordination of gay people in the Episcopal church?

  9. That is a really interesting difference in women’s agency in terms of sexuality. I suppose the change could be attributed to a difference in understanding of sexuality, period: in the days when it was normatively seen as sinful, then the whole man/spirit/good, woman/body/evil duality came into play.

    The reason was that during this period [around the First Lateran Council] the nature of the host consecrated at Mass received greater theological scrutiny. Medieval theologians were in the process of determining that bread and wine, at the moment of consecration in the hands of an ordained priest at the altar, truly became the body and blood of Jesus Christ.

    Meh, as I understand it, what changed in the medieval church was a new focus on explaining exactly how(by what means, and in what sense) the bread and wine truly became the body and blood of Jesus Christ, which had long been an article of faith.

    One result of this new focus on mechanics was a de-emphasis (almost to the point of loss) of the understanding that the “body of Christ” here meant not only Christ’s resurrected body, but also his “mystical body”, ie, the church. In the early church, these two understandings were held closely together, and only recovered to the modern church in the late 19th century.

    …its freshly ordained married priests.

    Of course, the RC church has had married clergy ever since they welcomed Anglican priests fleeing the ordination of women in the Anglican church. :/ There’s probably at least one married priest serving in every diocese in the US.

  10. @annalouise:

    …..because they hate gay people. Let’s not forget that or gloss over it. That is the context in which this is happening.

    Some of them probably do hate gay people.

    Some of them don’t hate gay people, but they do not see how the traditional teachings of the church on sexual morality can be compatible with the ordination of non-celibate gay people, or with the sacramental marriage of gay couples. (Christians who support full equality for gays & lesbians in the church have found a theological understanding of the issues involved that allow them to do so in spite of the traditional teachings of the church on sexual morality.)

    Some of them don’t hate gay people, and may not be sure about the theological issues, but they are very upset about the process by which these decisions have been made in the Anglican church. Some of them question the integrity of the process. Some of them now feel unwelcome in the Anglican church. Some of them simply feel “this is not the church I grew up in”.

    Many of them find it heartbreaking.

    I speak as a Roman Catholic who has talked to several Anglicans who are in various of these categories; who does support full equality for gays and lesbians in the church; and who has ecclesiological concerns about the new Anglican ordinariate.

    I agree the context is very, very relevant. But let’s not oversimplify the context. For people who take the traditional teachings of the church seriously, the status of gays and lesbians in the church is just not a simple question. And in many cases, the theological explication of the issues has been impoverished or superficial, if it’s present at all.

  11. And really, those are just words for how people who want to love God and want to do the right thing justify their homophobia. Am I as compassionate as I ought to be? Absolutely not. Because I know that change is frightening, that homophobia is deeply ingrained in our society and it is *hard* to see your community change in a way your aren’t expecting. Am I as sympathetic as I should be towards what these decisions have meant to the priests making them? Again, no.

    But it’s still shameful. And I could list all the reasons that this harms a movement towards Christian unity; how it’s a short-sighted act on the part of the Catholic church. But at the end of the day, I just take it personally. It hurts. It hurts to see how much people will change their mind on, how much they’ll sacrifice, just to not be in loving communion with me.

  12. @annalouise,

    I see and I hear and I grieve for your pain. And I am sorry for what my church has done that has contributed to it.

    In what I have heard from the people I have talked to, and in my own journey on this topic, it isn’t always homophobia that’s involved — but I also see that it really doesn’t matter, because it’s not like a neat philosophical label or a detailed theological argument makes any difference in how much it hurts.

    May the Holy Spirit comfort you in your distress.

  13. I don’t care how sweet and kindly and heartfelt you are about it, if you think God doesn’t want women and gays to be ordained, then you think God is sexist and homophobic. And don’t talk about “different but equal roles” – men can be Pope and cardinal, women can be nuns and Sunday school teachers is in no way equal. Would you accept a church that said “Oh we love black people, but God doesn’t want them to be priests. He thinks they’re super equal to whites though!”

  14. I think that societies have a tendency to do this with any woman close to a man in power. Look how America treats the First Ladies. If they act like anything other than bland window dressings for their husbands they get pilloried in the media. They should only talk about fashion, gardening and child care. In no way should they voice opinions on matters of state, which they are undoubtedly far more informed about than anyone else.

    Also, Brennan, owls kept the clergy up all night with their hooting and screeching so they were assumed to be instruments of the devil. ((I totally made that up!))

  15. I don’t care how sweet and kindly and heartfelt you are about it, if you think God doesn’t want women and gays to be ordained, then you think God is sexist and homophobic.

    I see your point. I hadn’t made this connection – I was focussing on “how someone personally feels about gays & lesbians” as distinct from “what their beliefs about church teaching imply about God”.

    And to be clear, I personally do support ordination for gays and for women, and talk about “separate but equal roles” makes me ill.

    I think the problem the RC church has wedged itself into comes from the fact that its teaching about sexuality generally is still based almost entirely on natural law, and was essentially unaffected by the renewal and re-orientation of moral theology towards scriptural values during and after Vatican II.

    And the teachings are a whole coherent tapestry, so that one can’t simply carve out “well of course it’s OK for gays and for women to be ordained, God isn’t sexist or homophobic, duh” without having to rework all the teachings on the purpose and right use of sexuality, marriage, procreation, and the body.

    Of course, those teachings are also reinforcing, rationalizing, and justifying the institutional sins of misogyny and bigotry with which the church is afflicted.

  16. There was a scene in Anne of Green Gables (or maybe one of the sequels) where the church is looking for a new minister, and most of the people in the congregation agree that they shouldn’t hire a minister who’s not married — single men are too unsettled, and he might start “courting” someone within the congregation, which would cause all sorts of problems.

  17. It’s patently false to claim that, these Anglo-Catholics are “lacking any sort of moral commitment”.

    You’re right, they’ve a moral commitment to misogyny and homophobia. Which, really, is somewhat worse than lacking any moral commitment at all.

    Thats the bottom line here. All the talk of soul searching and heart wrenching sacrifice is artifice. We’re talking about people who are so offended by the ideas of women and gays in the clergy that they’re willing to throw in their lot with an organization which has systematically covered up and facilitated the rape of children across the world because doing something about it might have caused a loss of face or negatively impacted donations. Thats the kind of moral commitment we’re talking about; its strong, its terrifying, and its utterly repugnant, and it ought to be downright contrary to any acceptable understanding of a benevolent deity. I simply could not give two shits how much pursuing their hate hurts these people.

  18. Victoria Gaile

    Some of them don’t hate gay people, but they do not see how the traditional teachings of the church on sexual morality can be compatible with the ordination of non-celibate gay people, or with the sacramental marriage of gay couples.

    IOW, they give more of a shit about their medieval mumbo-jumbo than they do about GLBT people’s lives.

    Yeah, I said it. IDGAF how many oh-so-“progressive” xtians get butthurt over it. Your superstitious rituals <<<<<<<< real people's wellbeing. Or, what William said.

  19. I don’t often agree with William’s assessment of religion as a whole, but this is right on:

    All the talk of soul searching and heart wrenching sacrifice is artifice. We’re talking about people who are so offended by the ideas of women and gays in the clergy that they’re willing to throw in their lot with an organization which has systematically covered up and facilitated the rape of children across the world because doing something about it might have caused a loss of face or negatively impacted donations. Thats the kind of moral commitment we’re talking about; its strong, its terrifying, and its utterly repugnant, and it ought to be downright contrary to any acceptable understanding of a benevolent deity.

    I’m a queer Episcopal priest, happily partnered with the daughter of a Methodist pastor. She grew up under intense scrutiny: it was made clear that the pastor’s family was a barometer of the pastor’s morality and fitness for ministry. You can imagine how awful it was when she came out in high school. When she and I got together, we had lots and lots of conversations and laid out lots and lots of ground rules around what our family was going to look like. Even now, I’m so grateful to have been raised by atheists, because I don’t have the awful baggage that so many of my parishioners have around God and the church – I feel some days like all I do is help people recover from Sunday School.

    It’s been extra interesting for us since I am the first out queer minister in my part of the world, and so on top of the regular interrogation/harassment around my audacity in thinking I should be in leadership at all as a young woman, there’s been the extra freaking out about my sexuality. People coming to my office in inquire about my use of lipstick, people coming in to ask questions about my partner’s gender presentation and identity (I nip that in the bud right quick, believe me). The congregation I serve was, before I arrived, really white, really upper-middle-class, pretty conservative. Lots of people left when I was called. (Plus the readerboard was defaced, wires were snipped in our car, etc., possibly as a result also of the newspaper putting me on the front page.) This is all hypothetical, and all speculative, but it really does feel like the people most squicked out by my partner and I are the people who are most freaked out by their bodies and by sex in general. It’s like they are seething mad that I’m young, pretty, comfortable in my anti-dieting chubby body, and unashamedly having really great gay sex, while they wallow in their little pools of shame, recrimination, deprivation and self-righteousness. They really want me to be as unhappy as they are, and my refusal to do so enrages them.

  20. I don’t often agree with William’s assessment of religion as a whole, but this is right on:

    I respect you and your position, but because of my own faith I feel compelled to point out that my assessment is of the abrahamic religions rather than religion as a whole. My beef is with that line of tradition, not with belief.

    Also, great post.

  21. wires were snipped in our car

    Fucking hell! I hope nothing happened while you were in the car and that the people who did that were caught.

    I’m an atheist and pretty wary of all religion, but I also remember how religion has the potential to really help some people out so I appreciate what you are trying to do and wish you luck.

  22. Since there seems to be people on this thread who are actively involved in present day christianity – I’d like to ask a question.

    How do the evangelical christians in the US justify throwing their political support behind (pun intended) Santorum who is a Roman Catholic? This is a brain teaser that drives me up the wall. Basically, being protestant is mostly about not being catholic. What’s in it for the evangelicals? Why would they want a president who is subject to Papal Doctrines first?

    I read a blog describing how evangelicals & catholics are banding together in Brazil to require a government list maintained by required reporting of health care providers of pregnant women. Granted, I’ve watched conspiracy videos & tried to read at least one of Icke’s books, but I’m pretty sure this list is not about granting women access to better health care as the Brazilian government is promoting it. Doctors must report women who are pregnant to the government. Catholics & evangelicals. Hmmm.

    Also, in my most recent copy of “The Sun” Ina May Gaskin*, who is concerned with the high rate of maternal mortality in the US, points out it’s even higher in Brazil. But, she ties high maternal mortality with the advent of c-sections. She points out that in some private hospitals in Brazil, c-sections are performed on over 95% of pregnant women. Medicalizing & dehumanizing birth.

    I forsee a troubling trend between christians of different sects uniting to force their beliefs on everyone – by stalking them, if necessary.

    I would welcome anyone else’s thoughts on this matter.

    Disclaimer: I am not a mother & by surgery & age am (hopefully) unable to get pregnant.
    *Ina May Gaskin is called the “midwife of modern midwifery”. She, according to the interviewer, has been providing midwife services for the past 40 years.

  23. Thanks for the clarifier, William. I appreciate it, and will remember it.

    groggette, we never reported the wires being cut. When we got to town and connected with other queers, one of the first things we asked was about the police department. We were told really clearly not to go to police if/when something happened. For example, there was a couple in town whose truck was spray painted with all kinds of bad stuff, including DYKES right across the windshield, and the cops came, sniffed around a little, sneered at the women, and told them that it wasn’t a hate crime “because they didn’t look like lesbians” and drove away.

    I mean, it’s this kind of stuff that makes me want to dig in my heels and stay, and makes me really glad and grateful to do what I do. I remember the intense loneliness of growing up queer in a place like this, no adults I could grow up to be. Now I get to be the adult that the wife of a evangelical pastor at a big local church comes to on the sly, to talk about how one of her daughters is gay, and the other is an atheist, and she doesn’t know what to do, and I get to talk with her for a long time about how both her daughters are gifts, period, full stop. Gifts. Treasures. Blessings. As they are right now. And give her material around Scriptural interpretation, and about queerness in the church over the centuries, and pray together. And to tell her that she is strong enough to take an unpopular stand, as the pastor’s wife, and protect and defend her children. That God has given her this task, and this particular family, and that she can do it.

  24. Veronique @#2: I think the rule in the Eastern Orthodox church is that you have to be married before you’re ordained. And if you’re married, you can’t be promoted to bishop.

    That used to be the rule, anyway. I was brought up Greek Orthodox but have been an atheist for decades and so haven’t been paying attention.

    In any case, the presbytera of my childhood church would be quite amused to learn about her “ardor of impatient lust.”

  25. Iris

    How do the evangelical christians in the US justify throwing their political support behind (pun intended) Santorum who is a Roman Catholic? This is a brain teaser that drives me up the wall. Basically, being protestant is mostly about not being catholic. What’s in it for the evangelicals? Why would they want a president who is subject to Papal Doctrines first?

    I grew up in a protestant church and can list on one hand the times the RCC was brought up. The Reformation happened 400 years ago, not all modern Protestants consider themselves anti-Catholics. In fact, until I met someone who was Catholic, I assumed that the Catholic church had mostly the same doctrines and beliefs as the Protestant church. To me, the differences were more ethnic. Most northern whites and blacks I knew were Protestant while hispanics, the irish, and italian were Catholic.

  26. Thanks for responding, Maria. While I don’t remember JFK running for POTUS, I do remember alot of hoopla about his being subject to the Pope’s directives and what that would mean for the US (i.e. – answering to a higher power on earth). I suppose Catholic is better than Mormon in evangelical eyes!?!

  27. Can I point out, here, that I think it’s important to make sure that we avoid using the traditional slurs towards the Catholic Church and, through that, Catholics–that it’s essentially this medieval, mystical, byzantine, spoooooooooky Other Thing. In the Anglosphere, there’s a long tradition of looking askance at Catholicism, largely coming from a Protestant anti-papist point of view. It’s been a constant refrain in America, where I’m from, and in American politics, from the beginning, and it is a part of a shared culture that we should be aware of. (There’s even a TV Tropes article about it–made TV Tropes! To be fair, if more people knew about Orthodoxy, there’d probably be a similar vision of them, too, but most Americans who aren’t Greek, Eastern European, or into theology probably don’t have much of an idea about them.)

    And for those who were referencing the Orthodox Church–so the basic deal is, with both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, neither one holds clerical celibacy as dogma. That is to say that neither Church holds that priests MUST be celibate. Instead, the Churches have different practices, but they haven’t ever solidified them as the only thing ever. In practice, the Orthodox Churches have allowed men who are already married to enter the priesthood, but not to ascend to the bishopry. The Catholic Church has tended to forbid married men from becoming priests, but there have been exceptions–currently, with married Anglican priests who wish to convert and stay priests, and also, to a smaller degree, with Chinese Catholic priests who are loyal to the Vatican and not to the … I think it’s the Patriotic National Catholic Organization? Something like that. And Eastern Catholic Churches, which were previously Orthodox until the 16th or 17th centuries, have a tradition that’s similar to Orthodox Churches–which is to say that married men may be priests, but only unmarried men may become bishops. Catholicism and Orthodoxy actually don’t have as many true completely impossible differences as you might think; currently, the two main issues are 1) is the pope first among equals, or first; and 2) the still totally unresolved question about how, exactly, to explain the Holy Spirit.

  28. Can I point out, here, that I think it’s important to make sure that we avoid using the traditional slurs towards the Catholic Church and, through that, Catholics–that it’s essentially this medieval, mystical, byzantine, spoooooooooky Other Thing.

    Except…who is doing that here? The original article makes a lot of references to the medieval church, but thats because theres a history lesson involved. No one here has invoked the tropes of the medieval, mystical, byzantine other. Instead, the repudiations here have been in response to specific contextual facts. If the Church would like to shake it’s image as byzantine then perhaps it should either allow priests to marry or choose not to allow priests to marry because the tradition of celibacy is important to them. What it shouldn’t do is bend these rules in the name of political expediency while making room for bigots. If the church would like to avoid appearing as an anachronistic and hateful organization stuck in the medieval era then perhaps it should not engage in this “devious and usually surreptitious manner of operation” by handing down orders from a king (with a history of making allowances for child rapists) in a palace with a throne designed to help support the kinds of discrimination and hatred that competing religious institutions have found to be morally unsupportable. They aren’t some “spooky Other,” they’re the fucking powers that be, the entrenched and wealthy men of privilege who impose strictures upon others because they believe they have the right. If you own your own country and can get nearly any head of state on the face of the Earth to take your call you don’t get to whine about being discriminated against. That is especially true if you’ve spent an enormous amount of resources to promulgate actual discrimination against people who don’t have thrones and halls and the accumulated wealth of something in the neighborhood of fifteen centuries of theft and empire.

  29. Given the history of the commentariat here when dealing with Catholicism/Orthodoxy, I felt it was appropriate.

    And, hey, they’re not breaking their rules. This isn’t something new and earth-shattering, just because it’s new to you. Unmarried priests have been the practice but they have never been dogmatically necessary. Ergo: Eastern Catholics, certain Chinese Catholics, ex-Anglicans before the current day, and so on. If something has been acceptable for five hundred years (no joke) in a large swath of the world, I think it’s a more than a little disingenuous to pretend like it’s something completely radically new and different.

    And seriously, at the end? That’s exactly what I’m talking about. I’m not claiming that the Catholic Church has nothing to be ashamed of. Who could say that with a straight face? It’s been around the block more than a few times, and I think everyone is aware of just how current and recent Church leaders have failed to protect and defend and serve all of the members of their community. They failed completely in many cases and that’s something that’s especially horrifying when, as a Catholic, you realize just how easy it must have been for predator priests to attack children, given the respect Catholics hold for priests, and how easy it was for them to continue to abuse them. Reading testimonies is an intensely horrifying experience, as you mostly read about Catholic kids, growing up in an environment that has such deep respect for priests, being assaulted, raped, molested by sexual predators that they’ve been raised to treat with respect. It’s horrifying.

    But can we back off of the whole “ooh look the Vatican is so shiny” thing, and maybe try not to speak for the hundreds of millions of Catholics of color out there? (I figured that’s where you were going with the empire and conquest thing. Sorry if you were headed in some other direction of peoples subject to empire and conquest.) I don’t think most people who weren’t raised Catholic or in similar high-church religious traditions (whatever that is–basically covering anyone with a really decadent tradition of big and sparkly religious buildings) could understand why Catholics think of the great churches and palaces of the Vatican and around the world as beautiful and wonderful and not decadent and scuzzy. And brown Catholics can and do speak for themselves; it’s just usually not in English. I really somehow doubt they’d be thrilled at being depicted as oppressed peoples who lack religious agency due to the legacy of colonialism.

  30. I think all of this discussion of clerical celibacy misses the huge economic problem of priests’ passing on their office to their children, in medieval Europe the discouraging of clerical dynasties was a positive good. The corruption you see around this sort of thing even in modern churches is striking. This is a common abuse in the Orthodox churches today.

  31. I really somehow doubt they’d be thrilled at being depicted as oppressed peoples who lack religious agency due to the legacy of colonialism.

    I imagine they’re even less thrilled to BE oppressed peoples who lack religious agency due to the legacy of colonialism.

    The Catholic Church is literally indefensible. It is an ugly relic from a brutal and amoral age that is actively making the world a worse place every day it exists. Everything it has it took by con or theft. Sure, the Vatican is a pretty place to visit, but to see it only as that is to overlook the most important part of its legacy.

    It’s been around the block more than a few times, and I think everyone is aware of just how current and recent Church leaders have failed to protect and defend and serve all of the members of their community.

    I love the phrase “it’s been around the block more than a few times.” You make it sound like the Catholic Church took its dad’s car out for a joyride and got a badass tattoo. It didn’t “fail to protect and defend and serve.” That is a dodge. The Church actively attacks its members, especially those who are the least able to defend themselves.

  32. Yeah, Orthodoxy allows married men to be ordained priests (the various Eastern Catholic Churches theoretically as well, but in practice that’s been iffy-see Latinization, Alexis Toth, ACROD, etc). But really, who cares? Both Orthodoxy and Eastern Catholicism are just as reactionary and fucked up when it comes to matters of sexuality as Rome is. TBQH its not as if Rome allowing married men to be priests is automagically going to make the RCC a much more liberal place. After all, many conservative Anglicans coming over, as a result of the B16’s plans to create an ordinariate for ex-Anglicans, are married. And these new Catholic priests are extremely traditional.

  33. Can I point out, here, that I think it’s important to make sure that we avoid using the traditional slurs towards the Catholic Church and, through that, Catholics–that it’s essentially this medieval, mystical, byzantine, spoooooooooky Other Thing.

    Oh please, this is glorified concern trolling of the “liberals are the real fascists/bigots/etc!” sort. You’re equating progressives who are skeptical and atheistic with the worst of Protestant Christendom’s anti-Catholicism?

  34. that it’s essentially this medieval, mystical, byzantine,

    In what universe? Speaking as someone who used to be involved in traddie circles, the RCC nowadays in the US is in many cases indistinguishable from bog standard low church Protestantism (and not the high Anglican/Lutheran sort).

  35. If something has been acceptable for five hundred years (no joke) in a large swath of the world, I think it’s a more than a little disingenuous to pretend like it’s something completely radically new and different.

    You’re trying to have it both ways. If I was a married Catholic I could not become a preist. If I was an unmarried priest I could not get married. Every circumstance you have mentioned involved the church granting a dispensation in order to claim priests from other churches. A dispensation, that is “the suspension by competent authority of general rules of law in particular cases.” The general rule or law is that priests in the RCC need to be celibate and unmarried, here the church is suspending that rule in order to allow in rigid bigots. Bully for them, they’ve a protocol from other situations in which they decided to suspend their rules for political reasons. Color me unimpressed with the whole charade.

    But can we back off of the whole “ooh look the Vatican is so shiny” thing,

    Frankly, no. The Vatican is shiny, it is full of wealth possessed by the church which has not been used for charity but for oppression.

    And it ain’t just the Vatican. Drive through Chicago and tour our opulent RC Churches, their huge chunks of well-manicured and tax-exempt land, their massive halls and elaborate stained glass, the gold and silver and marble. Its worth noticing because the wealth of the church is built on theft, genocide, and empire. Its worth noticing because every solid silver chalice and gorgeous twenty by ten foot stained glass window was bought with money that wasn’t spent on feeding the hungry or clothing the poor or even edifying their concept of God but on showing everyone how well they were doing. Its worth noticing because the church uses the social position that conspicuous consumption, collaboration, and the eradication of local systems of belief bought in order to lobby for the oppression of human beings even today. Its worth noticing because the church has, more than once, been on the wrong side of history in the name of preserving their obscene opulence. That matters, here, because it is yet another example of the church doing anything it can to maintain it’s power.

    I figured that’s where you were going with the empire and conquest thing. Sorry if you were headed in some other direction of peoples subject to empire and conquest

    I won’t speak for Catholics of color. I’ll sure as hell speak for the people who were robbed of their traditions and their cultures by the spread of Catholicism through Europe. I’ll speak for the Donar Oak. I’ll speak for all of the people whose blood runs in my veins who the church so thoroughly violated that the names of their Gods and forms of their traditions have been erased with such precision that I could not return. The Church was an active participant in empire and genocide before it even left the Mediterranean. The Roman Catholic Church exists because of it’s willingness to collaborate with Roman expansion. So, with all due respect, fuck you and your breathtakingly historically ignorant attempt to accuse me of cultural appropriation. From a Roman Catholic no less…the fucking gall.

    I don’t think most people who weren’t raised Catholic or in similar high-church religious traditions (whatever that is–basically covering anyone with a really decadent tradition of big and sparkly religious buildings) could understand why Catholics think of the great churches and palaces of the Vatican and around the world as beautiful and wonderful and not decadent and scuzzy.

    Ahh yes, the old “if you aren’t one of us you couldn’t understand why the monuments built with the wealth of the rape and ruin of your people aren’t repellent to us.” Its like hearing a skinhead try to explain why the swastika really stands for the solidarity of the white race or a southerner explain that the rebel flag is about liberty rather than racism.

    I really somehow doubt they’d be thrilled at being depicted as oppressed peoples who lack religious agency due to the legacy of colonialism.

    Is your world really so small that you have forgotten that Christianity started in the fucking middle East, travelled into Rome, and then became the world-force it is today only by getting in bed with an emperor and then rampaging through Europe? Its not like Christianity came to Northern Europe by convincing a few families to come to church and fuck a lot. They came with swords.

  36. I’ll go in order, without quotes because I’ll without doubt mess things up.

    “I imagine they’re even less thrilled to BE oppressed peoples who lack religious agency due to the legacy of colonialism.”

    I don’t think that people of color in the global South, as a whole, lack religious agency, and I think to claim that they do is insulting, erasing, and infantilizing. People make choices that you might dislike, that you might hate, that you might abhor, but to claim that indigenous Catholics in Mexico or Catholics in Uganda are only Catholics today due to the legacy of colonialism is erasing to their own agency. It’s disrespectful, and continues a tendency in western civ to treat peoples of colonized nations as if they are not able, as if they are not currently doing, work to deal with decolonization. It continues to center northern and western views of decolonization, particularly religious decolonization, over southern and eastern ones, by claiming that the work they do is invalid because it does not satisfy our desires, wants, and wishes.

    And thanks for cutting out the bit where I continued to explain just how horrifying the Church’s inaction about, and deliberate cover-up towards, child molestation was. That’s legit engagement.

    Amanda in the South Bay:

    The Eastern Catholic Churches don’t “theoretically” let it happen; they do, point blank. And they’re in full communion with Rome, for five hundred years now. Your assertion that the Anglican priests looking to convert to Catholicism are on the traditional/conservative/reactionary side is correct, absolutely.

    And I’m not trying to equate Protestant anti-Catholicism with liberal/agnostic/atheist anti-Catholicism, but I am asking you to be aware of the fact that, in a US context, you’re entering into something that has a lot of socio-cultural, racial baggage attached to it.

    And I’m not and never have been trad, at all, but–really? I’m just saying, as someone who’s been to a lot of Protestant churches and services over the years, Episcopalianism has been the closest, both in terms of trappings (incense, outfits, prayers) and in terms of religious belief. How many Presbyterians or Baptists do you imagine say prayers to Mary?

    William:

    ECC is and has been in full communion with Rome for five hundred years. The end. They are not a separate church. And, once again, if something’s been repeatedly practiced for half a millennium, I really don’t think that applying it en masse to Anglicans is anything new. There are already married ex-Anglican priests.

    Re: churches: Throughout the world, throughout history, people have built monuments to the glory of their gods. Find me a great modern world religion without beautiful holy buildings–I’ll be shocked. Why? Because they’re beautiful, or inspiring, and important to the people involved.

    Finally–really, you’re going to claim that you’re oppressed because your Germanic ancestors converted and were converted in the 8th century? Quick–tell me, my ancestors converted to Christianity in the 14th century. What do I win? Your argument is as specious as when “white ethnics” (don’t know how else to put it, but I think you’ll know what I mean) try to derail discussions about white privilege by talking about how their great-great-grandparents were discriminated against when they came to America.

  37. I think William is right to point out that the majorty of people who are Catholics today, whether they are white or nonwhite, are Catholics because their ancestors were forcibly converted, whether through outright violence or economic and political coercion. The same can be said for Protestantism, Islam, and a lot of other religions. The Catholic Church has a very bloody, imperalistic history in which it was normally on the side of the oppressors. Just because nowadays not many people are forced to be Catholics (besides children, that is), doesn’t negate the immense suffering that the Church has inflicted on all sorts of populations over the centuries.

  38. Throughout the world, throughout history, people have built monuments to the glory of their gods. Find me a great modern world religion without beautiful holy buildings–I’ll be shocked. Why? Because they’re beautiful, or inspiring, and important to the people involved.

    Except here we have a God whose values include charity, alms, and humility. Prada boots? Not so much. More to the point, there are plenty of Christian denominations who do not clad everything in gold and marble. Hell, drive through Chicago’s south side and take a look at the vibrant storefront Churches which dot just about every block.

    You can dress it up all you want and call on as much precedent as you choose, but if Father McKiddyfiddler can’t get married but Father Homophobe of Queerbeatshire, England can step over with his wife and passel of kids then I’m going to call bullshit because anyone with a pair of eyes can see whats going on here. Church law doesn’t terribly concern me because, however nice the robes and halls of power might be, Pope Prada doesn’t have an army.

    Finally–really, you’re going to claim that you’re oppressed because your Germanic ancestors converted and were converted in the 8th century?

    Lets see…what did the church leave in it’s wake? Hmm…sexual oppression, antisemitism, a complete loss of culture and tradition…yeah, I think I will.

    I’m curious though, whats your timetable on oppression? How long until I can stop having to feel uncomfortable about manifest destiny?

    Quick–tell me, my ancestors converted to Christianity in the 14th century. What do I win?

    The cynic in me would say poor reading comprehension skills and cognitive enslavement, but I’ve met a lot of Catholics who fit neither description so I’ll have to chalk your presentation up to personal deficiency.

    try to derail discussions about white privilege by talking about how their great-great-grandparents were discriminated against when they came to America.

    Mine were, I’m not. The difference between that and the RCC is that if I really wanted to I could learn German and Czech and Gaelic, I could cook their food, I could even immigrate if I wanted to put forth the effort. What I couldn’t do is worship the gods of my ancestors because they’ve been obliterated and co-opted. The Church still openly celebrates that. Most Catholics, just like any other group, are fine people.

    But your Church, its full of monsters. Always has been. The legacy of the Roman Catholic Church is violence, oppression, cultural genocide, empire, corruption, and vile attempts to control consensual behavior between adults. Most recently they’ve added the systematic rape of children and helping the spread of HIV in Africa to their portfolio. Neither time nor the volume of discusion can ever diminish their crimes. If your god stands behind an institution like that then he is not a deity worthy of anything less than abject contempt. That Vatican city has not been wiped from the face of the Earth like some cancerous Sodom leads me to believe that he was never there at all.

  39. I’m not disagreeing that peoples’ ancestors were forcibly converted, because that’s inherently dishonest. To claim otherwise is lying. However, it’s also dishonest to equate the experiences of all converted peoples to each other as if they were fundamentally equal. Fundamentally European experiences of Christianity were not the same as African or Latin American experiences of Christianity, and I think to equate them–to act as if the forced conversion of my ancestors eight hundred years ago was the exact same and should be spoken of in the same breath as indio experiences in the Americas–is pulling at strings and erases an important distinction. Furthermore, it’s also dishonest, as I see it, to claim that because of centuries-old events, that people still lack religious agency. I can guarantee without hesitation that if you went up to an Algerian Muslim, for example, and told them that their faith was the illegitimate result of foreign colonization and imperialism and that they lacked agency, they would be incredibly insulted. Religions aren’t owned by the people who start them, permanently, and indefinitely. I think you’ll find that essentially all major world religions were the result, at some point, of conquest.

  40. Finally–really, you’re going to claim that you’re oppressed because your Germanic ancestors converted and were converted in the 8th century?

    On reflection, I feel this deserves something more than a flip response. Say Catholics had been deprived of over a thousand years of theological inquiry. Imagine, for instance, that the Mongols had pushed their way to the Atlantic and found Christianity to be without merit. Imagine that they responded to Christianity as a whole in the same way Rome responded to paganism and heresy. Say you never had Aquinas. Go back further and imagine that the works of Augustine and Origen and Tertullian were just gone. Not only the works themselves, but every commentary, every discussion, every person who had ever had knowledge of them. Imagine that the bible itself was gone and you had to infer from fragments which escaped or survived destruction. Imagine that you had no churches, no Church Fathers, no Canon Law, no traditions. Can you honestly say that you wouldn’t feel you’d lost something? Would you be able to make a straight faced argument that, while the Mongols were bad and all, whats the big deal? If you looked back through history and found that, until the Mongols declined to such a point that they could no longer kill dissenters, every single act of dissent was violently crushed would you honestly be so cavalier about the history of bloody oppression?

    Or, as I suspect, is this different because you love Jesus and trust the Church and simply cannot fathom why someone would be so worked up a thousand years later? After all, the Church did us a favor saving all of our souls. The decent thing to do would be to buy them out of the financial hole all the child rape unpleasantness that has already been around the block plenty has resulted in, right?

  41. I’m not disagreeing that peoples’ ancestors were forcibly converted, because that’s inherently dishonest. To claim otherwise is lying.

    This oughtta be good…

    However, it’s also dishonest to equate the experiences of all converted peoples to each other as if they were fundamentally equal.

    Tell me, I know that the church hates gays so much that they’ll take in anyone who can outhate them in a hateathon offer a dispensation which totes isn’t unusual, but how do they feel about the faithful taking up with scarecrows? A more conservative person might suggest that if you’re going to get all up in that strawman’s grill you might want to do it out of view of old folks and kids.

    Furthermore, it’s also dishonest, as I see it, to claim that because of centuries-old events, that people still lack religious agency.

    It wasn’t so long ago that being a pagan in Europe was still a crime. England was still arresting people for claiming to be witches in the 40s and Bob Barr wanted to ban the from military service in the US. Hell, none of my coworkers know about my faith today. So, yeah, the religious agency argument doesn’t go too far.

    I can guarantee without hesitation that if you went up to an Algerian Muslim, for example, and told them that their faith was the illegitimate result of foreign colonization and imperialism and that they lacked agency, they would be incredibly insulted.

    Algerian Muslims don’t try to stick their noses in my civil rights.

    Religions aren’t owned by the people who start them, permanently, and indefinitely.

    Thats why we’ve had the proliferation of non-European popes in the last century and the Church has opened up to Liberation Theology, right?

    I think you’ll find that essentially all major world religions were the result, at some point, of conquest.

    Nice dodge there, that “major” gives you an out. But how does a religion come to be a major world religion? Conquest. Thats like saying that you’ll find that essentially all human beings were the result, at some point, of a sperm fertilizing an egg.

  42. Find me a great modern world religion without beautiful holy buildings–I’ll be shocked. Why? Because they’re beautiful, or inspiring, and important to the people involved.

    Jewish people in Europe had some beautiful holy buildings, too; the wooden synagogues of Poland and some other countries were amazing, although hardly ornate or imposing from the outside. (Because there were strict laws restricting the height of synagogues — they couldn’t look like they were equal in any way to churches — a lot of them have sunken floors so they look considerably bigger on the inside. A clever people, those Jews.)

    It’s also interesting how often it’s discovered that medieval European cathedrals and churches have uprooted Jewish tombstones in their foundation walls, pillaged and used as building materials. (The Nazis hardly invented the practice of destroying Jewish cemeteries and synagogues.) It’s happened in Germany, in England, in lots of places. I guess the bright side is that this is one of the only ways that medieval (and earlier) Jewish gravestones have survived at all, with a couple of exceptions like the cemetery in Worms. Kind of the same way that virtually the only surviving ancient Roman temples are the ones that the Church confiscated and turned into churches, like the Pantheon, built by the Emperor Hadrian (one of the great bisexual emperors!) — one of the most amazing and inspiring buildings I’ve ever been in, which survives only because it was turned into a church. The rest (along with all their contents and wealth), were, of course, confiscated and ransacked by the Church. But it was all for the glory of God.

  43. I should have said that a lot of them “had” sunken floors; obviously, the overwhelming majority were destroyed, mostly by fire, some with the local Jewish population packed inside.

  44. I should have said that a lot of them “had” sunken floors; obviously, the overwhelming majority were destroyed, mostly by fire, some with the local Jewish population packed inside.

    You aren’t really suggesting that somehow you’re oppressed because of that, are you? I mean, the holocaust happened a long time ago, its old news, you probably weren’t even there! Its not like you were personally oppressed by history!

    …I feel dirty even writing that as satire.

  45. I don’t feel too much hypothetical nostalgia for what could have been, no. I don’t imagine a connection to my ancestors of over eight hundred years ago; I’m connected to my community and my society as it exists today, in the culture that I was brought up in and the ways that we have. Since you broke out your ancestry, I’ll break out mine, too–Anglo-Lithuanian American, and I was referring to Lithuania. The nation that Lithuania is today is a cumulative mix of internal and external forces, to the extent that I don’t think you could strip away the impact of the Soviet Union, the impact of Poland, the impact of the Vatican, the impact of all the other Baltic areas and still have anything tenable because we’ve taken and we’ve adapted and we’ve changed. The factors imposed on us are in many ways factors that are a part of us now, that are inherent within us. I honestly don’t think that there’s any way we could go back to a time before outside influence, and I don’t think we would want to. I think ownership of ideas and religions are transitory, and that just as they can imprint on you, you can imprint on them. I don’t think we can cut a part of ourselves off in order to go back to a time that we were completely independent; that isn’t us anymore. We can’t go back. I, especially, as a member of the Lithuanian diaspora, can’t go back. I belong to the US, I belong to my particular subculture, I belong to who my family ended up being. I own these things, no matter how I got them, because I own my own history which is mine now to accept or reject. It’s the same for everyone.

    Re: scarecrows: Hey, if you’re going to begin with “I won’t speak for Catholics of color, but I’ll speak for Germanic tribes that I’m adopting as my ancestors” as a method to express anger with exporting religion, I’ll absolutely go there. This isn’t oppression olympics; this is numerical overwhelming truth: the experience of indigenous peoples in the Americas and in Africa as a result of their contact with Christian peoples does not resemble the experience of Europeans peoples. The comparison is invalid.

    And, BTW, we’re not talking about whether or not Algerians have anything to do with your civil rights, so please, keep up. That’s continuing the conversation about whether or not colonized peoples can claim to have ownership over aspects of the culture that colonize them. I say, absolutely, not only can they, but they do.

    Re: non-European popes: dude, we’ve had like two non-Italian popes within recent centuries. John Paul II was the first non-Italian pope since the middle of the 16th century. Being pope is not the only thing that matters; if it was, then I suppose the French, Germans, Italians, and Poles now have complete monopoly over everything in the Catholic Church, ever.

  46. Donna–I was including Judaism in my argument, as there’s a tradition of Jewish monumental architecture. Think back to the First and Second Temples–they were absolutely monumental holy spaces.

  47. the experience of indigenous peoples in the Americas and in Africa as a result of their contact with Christian peoples does not resemble the experience of Europeans peoples. The comparison is invalid.

    I’m confused — are you saying that it was somehow more positive? Really? Or are you saying that regardless of how it started, it’s more positive now?

    Yes, of course I’m aware that the original Jewish Temples constituted monumental architecture, and that Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, and many other religions besides Christianity have monumental holy places. That wasn’t exactly what I was driving at.

  48. Actually, I was trying to say that as 99% of Europeans didn’t die as a result of Christianity, were not enslaved, etc., that the comparison is invalid. If you’re discussing colonialism in the context of the Americas, with everything attached to it–slavery, racism, continued racialized violence, etc.–it’s not appropriate to follow up with a discussion of Poland’s conversion to Christianity, or Germany’s, seeing as they in no way resemble the Americas or Africa.

  49. This isn’t oppression olympics; this is numerical overwhelming truth

    Thats been the Church’s argument all along, though. “We’ve got God on our side, we have unassailable truth!” You don’t. You’ve got an opinion. Screaming about truth, about what is right, about the way things are is the last refuge of the privileged feeling their grip on the reigns of power slip. Maybe someday you’ll hit bottom, look around at all the other people around you, and realize that its not so bad being amongst equals. Maybe you won’t. I hope you do but, ultimately, its irrelevant to me. My only really interest is to do what I can to stop you from doing much damage to everyone else as you thrash at the loss of power you neither earned nor deserved.

    the experience of indigenous peoples in the Americas and in Africa as a result of their contact with Christian peoples does not resemble the experience of Europeans peoples. The comparison is invalid.

    Show me where I said that. You keep asserting that I do, but even if you had a magic throne under your ass and a faintly ridiculous mitre giving you the appearance of the condoms you’re so damned disapproving of wouldn’t make it so. Put up or shut up.

    And, BTW, we’re not talking about whether or not Algerians have anything to do with your civil rights, so please, keep up.

    You’re trying hard not to talk about civil rights, and it hasn’t escaped my notice, but the rest of us see this whole story in the context of a Church which is trying very hard to violate the civil rights of LGBT persons all over the world. It ain’t Saint Bart’s day, you don’t get to set the terms of discussion.

    dude, we’ve had like two non-Italian popes within recent centuries.

    You’ve some trouble with sarcasm, don’t you?

    Seems this is done, though. The rest of the thread doesn’t need us barking at one another. You can have the last word or slink off in righteous indignation if you’d like. I’m confident that everyone here sees you for what you are: an apologist for homophobia and hatred desperately trying to distract from an indefensible institution rewarding bigots for their unthinking hatred.

  50. … I am gaining power, as a tool of the Church, by pointing out that Indio societies, peoples, and cultures were more than decimated, and nearly wiped off the map, by Christian colonization, and that European societies in their conversions were … not? I don’t need God on my side when I have the historical, archeological, and anthropological record in my corner. But thanks for playing! Did you miss the day in history class when you were supposed to learn about Bartolomeo de las Casas, why the Triangle Trade picked up, and literally just about every moment in post-contact Native history? Go to the library and read a book. Any book. You could even pick up that textbook, if you wanted to.

    And yeah, the more you keep whining about the oppression of European pagans and neo-pagans as if it’s directly equivalent to the experience of indigenous Americans, as if your imaginary connection to Germanic tribal peoples of fourteen hundred years ago as “people who were robbed of their traditions and their cultures by the spread of Catholicism through Europe,” the more I think you really did miss that day in class, as well as the day talking about the definition of genocide and ethnocentrism.

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