When it makes some man’s life easier, of course. But if you talk back, it’s because you’re an evil dangerous b*tch. Don’t you know how that works?
When they stop? When people stop seeing them as funny, or defending them as satire, or insisting that guys who see them as hi-fucking-larious are neither sexist nor less than completely trustworthy? Fuck this shit.
No, if you talk back, you’re a crazy b*tch who overreacts. Of course, if you don’t say anything and something escalates, then you’re a woman who “allowed” something bad to happen to her. (Hey, she never complained!)
At what point should rape threats not be taken seriously? I nominate absurdity as denoting that point. For example: threats to buttrape the Hamburglar if you ever share a jail call with him, or this.
Question – does anyone here think it’s possible that these…..people honestly don’t understand that there is a difference between posting a threat and posting an unpleasant comment? Would their response be the same if I said “I’d think someone ought to get a screwdriver and stab in the back of the neck 47 times”? Second Question – not being a lawyer, I may not understand the minutia of the law but I seem to recall that threats (written, over the phone, verbally face-to-face) are prosecutable (perhaps under stalker legislation?)
Second Question – not being a lawyer, I may not understand the minutia of the law but I seem to recall that threats (written, over the phone, verbally face-to-face) are prosecutable (perhaps under stalker legislation?) Yep. New York’s cyberstalking law requires only that the communication be conducted in a manner “likely to cause annoyance or alarm;” the straight-up harassment statute requires that the victim be in reasonable fear of bodily injury. (Scroll down, they’re at ss. 240.25 and 240.30). Interesting fact from the DOJ link: The chief of the Sex Crimes Unit in the Manhattan District Attorney’s Office also estimates that about 20 percent of the cases handled by the unit involve cyberstalking. The Computer Investigations and Technology Unit of the New York City Police Department estimates that almost 40 percent of the caseload in the unit involves electronic threats and harassment — and virtually all of these have occurred in the past three or four years. More interesting stuff (from the same link, my emphasis): Electronic communications technologies make it much easier for a cyberstalker to encourage third parties to harass and/or threaten a victim (e.g., impersonating the victim and posting inflammatory messages to bulletin boards and in chat rooms, causing viewers of that message to send threatening messages back to the victim “author.”) Electronic communications technologies also lower the barriers to harassment and threats; a cyberstalker does not need to physically confront the victim. More: “Cyberspace has become a fertile field for illegal activity. By the use of new technology and equipment which cannot be policed by traditional methods, cyberstalking has replaced traditional methods of stalking and harassment. In addition, cyberstalking has led to offline incidents of violent crime. Police and prosecutors need to be aware of the escalating numbers of these events and devise strategies to resolve these problems through the criminal justice system.” Linda Fairstein Chief of Sex Crimes Prosecution Unit Manhattan District Attorney’s Office
I’m posting this here since Lauren closed comments in the other thread and this simply must be said. However, I think there is a rather considerable difference between saying “I’d hate fuck that chick,” and “I sat next to that chick in class. I’d like to hate fuck her,” Have you actually read the threads in question? Because I have, and not one of them said anything resembling the latter statement. This is the only thread I can find posted on the board by someone who claimed to know Jill in person, and he never said such a thing. repeatedly over six months of time. Except it didn’t happen repeatedly over six months of time. If you search the thread filter for “Jill” and ignore the threats not about Jill F, you’ll see that there were only a handful of threads about her posted before January, and the others were primarily concentrated in August, after someone posted a link to her blog. One is rude but relatively harmless. The other is rude and a potential threat to another’s safety. Do you really fault anyone about feeling skeeved out knowing their classmates are posting about him/her in this manner? Except her classmates are not posting about her in such a manner. In fact, every post by someone claiming to be one of her classmates has been either neutral or positive. I know you’re probably not trying to deliberately mislead people, but posting incorrect statements and claiming that they’re true is really doing a disservice to your readers.
You’d also think law students would be bright enough not to do shit that will affect their moral-character reports for the Bar. Time to chat with the authorities, I think. Better safe than sorry.
“Yep. New York’s cyberstalking law requires only that the communication be conducted in a manner “likely to cause annoyance or alarm;” the straight-up harassment statute requires that the victim be in reasonable fear of bodily injury. (Scroll down, they’re at ss. 240.25 and 240.30).” Do you honestly think that anything written is actionable under criminal or civil statute or common law? I’ll break it down for you–it isn’t. Sure you can try to sue in tort for some of the things said, but you’d fail, each and every time. Call a ADA and see if they’d be interested in the case. Hell call the FCC and see what they think.
Sure you can try to sue in tort for some of the things said, but you’d fail, each and every time. Wow! I would like to hire this guy if and when he passes the Bar. It must be great to have psychic powers and be able to predict confidently exactly what will happen in any potential lawsuit. I concur with Potatoe, though–call the proper authorities and see what they have to say.
I don’t like anything that was said in that forum but at the end of the day, if I was Jill, I’d report the “threats” only if she actually felt threatened. She herself said that she felt uncomfortable because she felt that she was being watched and evaluated. Since she said that some particularly nasty comments have come to light but if she still does not feel any physical threat then I wouldn’t bother with the effort. My read on it is that these guys are assholes who should have their breeding-rights revoked but aren’t a physical threat to Jill. If she feels different then she should definitely take steps but taking steps will involve her time and effort. Her effort, her choice.
For the hell of it I called my uncle in the D.A.’s office in NY. He told me this was why they have people to screen out calls.
Sure you can try to sue in tort for some of the things said, but you’d fail, each and every time. Wow! I would like to hire this guy if and when he passes the Bar. It must be great to have psychic powers and be able to predict confidently exactly what will happen in any potential lawsuit. I concur with Potatoe, though–call the proper authorities and see what they have to say. I rely on my lawyer for advice including when it isn’t worth pursuing something. Even when you have a genuine grievance, sometimes taking action will cost you more in terms of time, energy and money (for civil complaints) than even a “win” will justify. When the odds of a “win” are questionable that is definitely an important factor.
Those waspy cowards probably think they’re as smart as Walter Wade, Jr., when they really are the future clients of mail-order brides agencies. Wait for them to brag about the Latvian or Thai “girlfriend” they chose on catalog in a coupla years. I’d rather listen to the worst gangsta rap all day than read one more line of that sexoracist piece of “Moët”, or whatever they label their verbal diarrhea.
For the hell of it I called my uncle in the D.A.’s office in NY. He told me this was why they have people to screen out calls. I’m wondering where Jill said this was going to a lawyer.
I’m not really sure how Jill’s intent is in any way relevant to the question of whether a complaint brought by her would be actionable. The actionability of the claim was the reason I called, not because I had any desire to bring the complaint on Jill’s behalf.
I’m wondering where I indicated you had any desire to do anything on Jill’s behalf that wasn’t dickish.
There’s been a lot of discussion regarding the legality of some of the statements made. The call was placed as a natural outgrowth of my curiosity as to whether there was much merit behind those posters that have suggested that the comments rose to the level of an actionable claim. I’m not entirely sure why you’re giving me such an attitude, I’ve done or said nothing that was meant to be offensive. Get over the persecution complex, not everyone is against you.
Except it didn’t happen repeatedly over six months of time. If you search the thread filter for “Jill” and ignore the threats not about Jill F, you’ll see that there were only a handful of threads about her posted before January, and the others were primarily concentrated in August, after someone posted a link to her blog. That’s actually not true. I’ve been having these things pointed out to me consistently, beginning in August and continuing through December. Try googling “jill site:www.xoxohth.com” if you want a taste of it — but even that search doesn’t bring up everything. I wish I had saved the links when I originally found them, and I can’t seem to find them all now — but that google search should give you a pretty good idea. In my own searches, I’ve come up with about 20 threads that mention my name, some of which mention having seen me in person, knowing someone who has, or getting listserve emails from me. I’d be happy to provide the links if you’d like them. Look, I’m not saying that this board is evidence of a group of people sitting around planning on harming me. I don’t think that. But it is creepy, it does make me uncomfortable, and it makes me feel like I’m being watched and evaluated when I go to school. That’s not a good feeling. As for “lightening up,” as I’ve said about five times now, I tried that. It failed. Now that I’ve done this, I feel quite a bit better.
I love how this: I’m not entirely sure why you’re giving me such an attitude, I’ve done or said nothing that was meant to be offensive. is followed by this. Get over the persecution complex, not everyone is against you. Man, don’t make my case for me. I’m having quite a bit of fun here.
I don’t think your reaction is in any way unreasonable Jill, but I’m not really surprised by the reaction from xoxo either. I’ve never posted on xoxo but I’ve lurked for a long time and I can say you were barely a blip on the radar over there; however, if someone was talking about me, even infrequently, in such a manner I’d likely think it was a big deal too.
Hey Laur, you seem to have tense issues. I said I HAVE never done something. When that statement was written it was true. That I followed it by something offensive has NO BEARING on the previous statement.
Get over the persecution complex, not everyone is against you. Just so you know, any person who belongs to a minority has heard the tired line a good thousand times before they reach their twenties.
Hey Laur, you seem to have tense issues. I said I HAVE never done something. When that statement was written it was true. That I followed it by something offensive has NO BEARING on the previous statement. However, it does show your duplicity.
I’ve just spent half an hour reading through the xoxo site, finding some charming remarks about myself (someone, quick, teach the little boys the word “mangina” so that they can use it!) and infinitely more ugliness towards women. I do think it’s worth reporting. Yes, it’s a hassle. Perhaps the greatest line in the misogynist arsenal is: “Can’t you take a joke?” By minimizing the hurt and injury they inflict, and insisting that humor ought to cover any number of hateful words and phrases, they are trying to make women second-guess their own judgment, their own feelings. It’s a strategy that works far too often. Let’s face it — to be called “humorless” by these idiots is a badge of honor. And I don’t want to see their strategy of “it’s just a joke” succeed one more time. But I’m not the offended party here, so whatever Jill decides to do, I’ll offer my enthusiastic support.
Do you honestly think that anything written is actionable under criminal or civil statute or common law? I’ll break it down for you–it isn’t. Sure you can try to sue in tort for some of the things said, but you’d fail, each and every time. Call a ADA and see if they’d be interested in the case. Hell call the FCC and see what they think. What in the blue hell would the FCC have to do with it?
I don’t want to have to go all Dawn Eden on everybody, but any post on this thread that does not directly address the question I asked above will be deleted. Regulars, let’s not get derailed.
I don’t want to have to go all Dawn Eden on everybody… Nonsense. You know you have those pure, chaste urges, and the desire to act on them. Besides, it’s a well-known fact that “Dawn Eden” and “L.B.” have never been seen in the same room at the same time. Mighty curious, is that. But, since we have to be all serious and shit, Internet threats have to be assessed on the likelihood of coming to fruition; does it fall in the category of “kiss my bony white ass” or “I’ll see you in the parking lot”?
David, Lauren and I used to hang out in Dawn’s comments all the time, yes when she was there. So there goes that weird theory, you weird bird. But I will say this–one of your weird theories is right. I am five different women. I’m actually a Transformer, and sometimes I’m five different women and sometimes they all join together to make one big feminist–Hyperbitchtron! Giant feminist superhero! Capable of being hysterical, strident, and shrill all at once! With laser eyes that can perform vasectomies on unwilling men through their clothes and a vagina dentata with steel teeth!
I rely on my lawyer for advice including when it isn’t worth pursuing something. Me too. “My lawyer” isn’t a random bozo on the Internet, or a law student, or somebody who might have more than a casual interest in my not raising a fuss. There’s no reason Jill should have to feel harassed at school and every reason the bozos should have to explain to NYU why they’re just joking and not really threatening to rape a fellow student.
Lauren or Jill, real classy of you to not approve my comment in the other post. Why don’t you want people to know how few negative posts were actually made about Jill during that period?
There’s no reason Jill should have to feel harassed at school and every reason the bozos should have to explain to NYU why they’re just joking and not really threatening to rape a fellow student. How does a Texas A&M sophomore making a few posts that Jill is hot, in reference to a picture she feely posted online, translate into her being harassed at NYU Law?
At what point should rape threats not be taken seriously? No point. In fact, the comments are so vicious and gratuitous that they are an assault on all women. There is an interesting piece written by Martha N (posted at U of C law blog) that seems germane to this issue: http://uchicagolaw.typepad.com/faculty/2005/11/womens_bodies_v.html#more Women’s Bodies: Violence, Security, Capabilities – Part I Note: This is the first in a series of posts, the whole of which is an article by Martha Nussbaum. The article, entitled “Women’s Bodies: Violence, Security, Capabilities,” appeared in the Journal of Human Development (Vol. 6, No. 2, July 2005). Comments are encouraged on parts or on the whole. Women’s Bodies: Violence, Security, Capabilities by Martha C. Nussbaum Violence and the threat of violence No woman in the world is secure against violence. Throughout the world, women’s bodies are vulnerable to a range of violent assaults that include domestic violence, rape within marriage, rape by acquaintances or dates, rape by strangers, rape in wars and communal conflicts, honor killing, trafficking and forced prostitution, child sexual abuse, female infanticide, female genital mutilation, and sex-selective abortion. Other practices that are not as obviously violent also contribute to the atmosphere of threat in which all women live the entirety of their lives: sexual harassment, stalking, threats of violence, deprivation of bodily liberty, the undernutrition of girls. The United Nations Declaration on the Elimination of Violence against Women (1994) defines violence against women as “any act of gender-based violence that results in, or is likely to result in, physical, sexual or psychological harm or suffering to women, including threats of such acts, coercion or arbitrary deprivation of liberty, whether occurring in public or private life.” Consequently, many apparently nonviolent practices count as forms of violence — and they should so count, because they have the same crippling effects on women’s capabilities as actual bodily violence. While it is true that some women are more vulnerable to violence than others — differences of nation, region, culture, class, and circumstance do make a difference—the fact is that no woman who is rational is ever utterly free of the fear of such violence, whether she has ever experienced violence herself or not. This fear, itself a form of psychological violence, takes its toll on women’s lives. If our topic is ‘human security,’ we should begin by admitting that no woman, from pre-birth to advanced old age, has it. There is a norm in feminist scholarship that the speaker or writer should begin by making clear her own relation to the topic, so that any possible biases might be evident. To follow this norm: I am a privileged woman, and one might think that I am protected about as well as any woman is protected. I had prosperous and loving parents who protected me, nourished me, and educated me for self-sufficiency, so that I do not have to earn a living in a physically degrading or dangerous occupation. I am pretty strong and fit physically; although not trained in self-defense, I can ward off some types of attack, and I have done so. I have also been hooked up, at various times, with three men of robust physical strength who would certainly be capable of warding off potential attackers. I live in a building with a 24-hour security guard. I live in a country that, at least in recent years, treats rape as a serious crime, campaigns against trafficking, and at least tries to do something about sexual harassment. So I view myself as a kind of a fortiori argument: if violence happens to me, it happens or can happen in spades to women who lack such protections. Nonetheless, like depressingly many women in my prosperous country, I have suffered quite a few forms of violence: one instance of date rape, one instance of violent and damaging sexual assault, and numerous instances of sexual harassment, one of which included an instance of attempted rape (see Nussbaum, 2003a). (Never did I file charges, since I knew, in those days, that the police would have laughed at me.) Those are the main things I have suffered, but the awareness of all that I have not suffered but might possibly suffer also takes its toll. One night in Finland, while working at World Institute for Development Economics Research (WIDER), I decided to go out walking in the woods at one a.m., because I had never been able to enjoy that freedom before, and, I reasoned, where but in Finland might it be possible to enjoy it? I had walked for only about 10 minutes in a lovely forest, when I concluded that the fear would not go away, and I would never be able to enjoy such a midnight stroll, not ever in my life. Many if not most women have worse tales to tell; what I want to stress is that even those who do not suffer from violence directly suffer from the threat of it, which greatly diminishes numerous valuable capabilities.
Lauren or Jill, real classy of you to not approve my comment in the other post. Why don’t you want people to know how few negative posts were actually made about Jill during that period? Did it go through? I just approved four comments, including this one. If it was in that batch, it should be up now. Sorry, but Lauren and I just aren’t able to check the moderation board every 10 minutes.
I just want to thank you for taking up the issue of the rape threats in that message board. I unfortunately don’t quite have the patience to go read through all 140 comments on Jill’s post, so maybe people went into it there, but it did bother me at first that everyone was concentrating only on the problematic nature of the appearance insults and people’s reactions to them. Nobody – not Jill, not Amanda, not Hugo (who I think are the only ones who blogged about it, but I could be wrong) – was taking up the rape issue, presumably exactly because they weren’t “serious” threats. I blogged about it too, actually, but I’m not here to pimp out my blog. Just to thank you for not writing it off as some kind of “boys will be boys” bullshit.
Okay, since my last comments have been approved I’ll assume that it’s Jill moderating and not Lauren. So, I’ll try to repost what I said before. That’s actually not true. I’ve been having these things pointed out to me consistently, beginning in August and continuing through December. Try googling “jill site:www.xoxohth.com” if you want a taste of it — but even that search doesn’t bring up everything. I wish I had saved the links when I originally found them, and I can’t seem to find them all now — but that google search should give you a pretty good idea. In my own searches, I’ve come up with about 20 threads that mention my name, some of which mention having seen me in person, knowing someone who has, or getting listserve emails from me. I’d be happy to provide the links if you’d like them. I went and did a Google search for Jill site:xoxohth.com. In my earlier post which did not get approved, I itemized the exact # of posts. I don’t have the time to do all that work again so the numbers aren’t going to be exact, but it was roughly something like this: 15 posts about Jills other than you 12 posts about Jill posted by :D, a Texas A&M University sophomore who has never been to New York, mostly saying that Jill is hot (in reference to Jill’s facebook photo, which she freely posted online). 1 post about Jill by someone who doesn’t go to NYU who was replying to :D, who did not comment on Jill’s appearance 1 post about Jill by someone who does go to NYU, who did not comment on Jill’s appearance 1 post about Jill pointing out Jill’s blog post about xo Even if we are generous and assume that your name was mentioned in 20 posts, let’s put that in context… 20 posts on a board that gets 2,500,000 posts per year. Hardly a big topic of conversation, especially since virtually all of those 20 posts were concentrated in a four day period in August (when the Miss NYU thing was being discussed). Look, I’m not saying that this board is evidence of a group of people sitting around planning on harming me. I don’t think that. But it is creepy, it does make me uncomfortable, and it makes me feel like I’m being watched and evaluated when I go to school. That’s not a good feeling. How does a Texas A&M sophomore posting a dozen or so posts about how you’re hot, in reference to a photo you posted online of your own free will, translate into you feeling watched and evaluated at NYU Law? You have not pointed out a single post by a NYU Law poster commenting on your looks, and I have not found one in my own searches.
When I perused those boards I actually missed the “rape her immediately” comment — ironic, since that was the worst thing on there. Christ, if I’d seen that… It’s the rape culture — we live in it, and men like that have no clue. (Nor do their female accomplices like SD, who have been brainwashed to accept their lot enthusiastically and denigrate women who protest.) When I was in my very early 20s I used to hike alone in a nearby forest. I never felt unsafe — until one day I was stalked and chased by a man. Those were the most terrifying minutes of my life, racing faster than I knew I could run back to civilization, to people, to safety. Heart pounding, running like the wind, praying for deliverance. I have never once, in all the many years since, hiked alone again. I can’t do it. I hike with my dogs, but never alone.
David, Lauren and I used to hang out in Dawn’s comments all the time, yes when she was there. So there goes that weird theory, you weird bird. Crap, that also blows my alternate theory that “Dawn Eden” and “Amanda Marcotte” were two personalities trapped in the same body. Damn you wily feminists! …and a vagina dentata with steel teeth! You seem to have an untoward fixation on that phrase. Perhaps you could have several rows of sharp, slavering teeth tattooed on your labia? Amanda’s next boyfriend: “Oh my God, what is that!?” Amanda: “LOL. It’s a metaphor, you simpering tool of Teh Patriarchy. Now stop talking and start pleasuring me.” [Predictions: Lauren (who does not like having her middle initial seen in public even though she put the whole frigging name in a blog post) will A. laugh; B. not post this; and C. send it to Amanda.]
I’m sorry that happened to you, Violet Socks. It’s funny how in denial these men (and one women , let’s not forget SD) are about what’s happening. These people seem to be focusing on the ugly/pretty side and writing off the rape threats or completely excusing them as just harmless. That Men’s Daily guy did it too. It’s weird because I can’t imagine anyone (who has a conscience) supporting those kind of threats. Maybe I’m niave. But I’m not use to hearing that level of violence or misogyny directed toward a woman. I don’t think I could understand them if I tried. Anyway, Amanda you are too funny. I wish I could turn into a robot. *cries*
These people seem to be focusing on the ugly/pretty side and writing off the rape threats or completely excusing them as just harmless. That Men’s Daily guy did it too. It’s weird because I can’t imagine anyone (who has a conscience) supporting those kind of threats. Maybe I’m niave. But I’m not use to hearing that level of violence or misogyny directed toward a woman. You’re getting this reaction from xo because there was no real threat here. Language is a social construct, and words used in one forum can mean something completely different in another forum. If someone says “anashi, I hope you break a leg!” on an acting message board, it’ll mean something completely different than if someone says “anashi, I hope you break a leg!” in the middle of a heated argument in a bar — while the latter statement is almost certainly someone wishing you bodily harm, the former statement is something positive, with the speaker almost certainly wishing you good luck. It’s the same situation here — if someone came to this blog and said “someone should rape Jill” it’ll mean something completely different than if someone posts that on xo (especially a known schtick poster like :D). Every single frequent (and not-so-frequent) xo reader knows that a statement like that coming from someone like 😀 is not a threat. Few people are arguing that you guys, as outsiders, are idiots for not knowing about the intricacies of our community’s culture. However, given that so many xo posters have tried to explain this to you and it keeps falling on deaf ears, it shouldn’t surprise you that a few are starting to lose patience. It’s one thing for you to think that the expression itself is inappropriate or distasteful, but it’s really ridiculous for some of you to claim that 😀 truly intended for someone to rape Jill, just like it would be ridiculous for someone reading an acting forum to think that a poster on there would truly want another poster to have his leg broken.
I don’t know :D. I’m don’t trust you to tell me that he is or isn’t a treat. Our communities cultures must be very different. Mine doesn’t make rape threats and excuse them, yours does. And you’re still excusing them. Deaf ears, indeed. Language is a social construct but you don’t get to decide how people take things like rape threats. What you said doesn’t change the fact that someone said ‘rape her immediately’ and doesn’t change what that means in the real world, our real society, and not in your made up one where words don’t matter because of some bullshit context like ‘community culture’.
See post #47 for an elegant demonstration of denial. However, given that so many xo posters have tried to explain this to you and it keeps falling on deaf ears, it shouldn’t surprise you that a few are starting to lose patience. And quite a few posters on Feministe have tried to explain to you that when a woman discovers men are talking about her on a board and suggesting she be raped, it’s not funny. It can never be funny. We’re not fools here: we understand discourse and situational meaning. Probably far better than you do. What you don’t get is the rape culture that keeps women in fear. anashi, thank you. I would just like to clarify that my post was to illustrate how something so relatively minor can frighten a woman into changing her behavior for the rest of her life. And I’m a tough old broad. I’ve never been raped, thank god. Women who have — jesus. Words fail.
I don’t know :D. I’m don’t trust you to tell me that he is or isn’t a treat. And a law enforcement agency would not take your word (or anyone else’s) that he is a threat without doing a thorough investigation. That said, it’s really not hard at all to tell that our communities are very different. I don’t pontificate on the intentions of your community members (several of whom have threatened violence against us, such as Terry, who I quoted in the other thread), so it would be much appreciated if you didn’t make similar pronouncements about what people like 😀 intend without knowing all the underlying background information. Our communities cultures must be very different. Mine doesn’t make rape threats and excuse them, yours does. There is nothing to excuse because no threats were actually made. As I said above, :D’s statement was a rape threat in the same way someone saying “Break a leg!” to an actor is a threat of physical violence. You might not know this as an outsider, but our community knows it, and that’s why it gets no reaction — we know who 😀 is (a couple in real life), know how he behaves, and know it’s not a real threat. So, from the perspective of our community members, you saying “but your community excuses rape threats” is no different than you telling an acting community “but your community excuses physical violence.” What you said doesn’t change the fact that someone said ‘rape her immediately’ and doesn’t change what that means in the real world, our real society, and not in your made up one where words don’t matter because of some bullshit context like ‘community culture’. To quote Lauren: welcome to the internet! In any case, I find it ironic that so many commenters here attack us for not condemning :D, yet not a single commenter here has condemned Terry or several other commenters who threatened physical violence against our posters. And quite a few posters on Feministe have tried to explain to you that when a woman discovers men are talking about her on a board and suggesting she be raped, it’s not funny. It can never be funny. Where did I say that it was funny? We’re not fools here: we understand discourse and situational meaning. Probably far better than you There’s absolutely no need for insults. I’ve been nothing but civil with you people and I’d appreciate receiving the same courtesy. What you don’t get is the rape culture that keeps women in fear. No, what I don’t get is how one individual, a Texas A&M sophomore, commenting on Jill’s appearance based on a picture she freely posted on the internet, translates into her feeling sexually harassed by classmates at NYU Law who did not post a single thing about her appearance.
Delurking a bit to echo what anashi said: The xo board may be a different culture than this blog, but the people who comment in it, who think that jokes about rape are funny, who insist that it’s really okay to say that kind of crap, exist in the same real world we do, in the same real world as the person you were “joking” about. Y’all don’t exist in a vacuum, separate from other people, and it’s hard to believe you just leave those attitudes behind when you disengage from the discussion there. Nobody there might really intend to harm Jill, but it’s difficult to believe the ill feelings only exist on the board.
In any case, I find it ironic that so many commenters here attack us for not condemning :D, yet not a single commenter here has condemned Terry or several other commenters who threatened physical violence against our posters. I was just about to type this myself. Perhaps internet threats are kosher in certain situations?
it’s hard to believe you just leave those attitudes behind when you disengage from the discussion there. Nobody there might really intend to harm Jill, but it’s difficult to believe the ill feelings only exist on the board. Caja, you aren’t echoing what anashi said. What you typed is above, and makes sense. But such is life. Nobody is universally loved (call me crazy but I think a few of you might have ill will towards me). Some people might have thoughts you don’t agree with. But thoughts do not equal actions. Anashi seems to think this will be grounds for expulsion, a court case, etc. This is why some of us are debating with him.
I was just about to type this myself. Perhaps internet threats are kosher in certain situations? Personally I have no problems with people threatening bodily harm towards people who threatens rape. However, I would have a problem with someone threatening bodily harm against someone who hasn’t made any such threats. The important thing to note here, is the fact that the threats of violence follows the threats of rape. That said, it’s really not hard at all to tell that our communities are very different. I don’t pontificate on the intentions of your community members (several of whom have threatened violence against us, such as Terry, who I quoted in the other thread), so it would be much appreciated if you didn’t make similar pronouncements about what people like 😀 intend without knowing all the underlying background information. What kind of background information makes threats of rape ok? And yes, there are a very big difference between the xo board and most other interenet communites. The xo board is a vile pit of homophobic, anti-seminist, racist and sexist comments, which most other boards fortunately are not.
Some people might have thoughts you don’t agree with. But thoughts do not equal actions. But posting your thoughts on an internet board does equal actions – the actions in this case, being making threats.
What kind of background information makes threats of rape ok? What kind of background information makes it okay to threaten to break someone’s leg? And yes, there are a very big difference between the xo board and most other interenet communites. The xo board is a vile pit of homophobic, anti-seminist, racist and sexist comments, which most other boards fortunately are not. How many of xo’s almost 5 million posts fit that criteria? And of those, how many are classified as off-topic rather than school-related? Actually don’t even bother answering; if you don’t like the site, just don’t read it. Problem solved.
Anashi seems to think this will be grounds for expulsion, a court case, etc. This is why some of us are debating with him. Nope, I don’t think this. It’s whatever Jill wants to do. I can’t see into the future. Or turn into a robot. *cries*
I’d make a complaint. Not specifically to get any action taken, because that’s unlikely, but rather to create a paper trail. If they continue or escalate their online harassment, you have evidence that they’ve caused problems before, that anything that happens in the future would not be an isolated incident but a recurrence. And if one of them DOES attempt something in real life, it would be helpful to the prosecution thereof if it could be demonstrated that he had spoken of doing so to you in the past. It would present an argument that such an attack was premeditated to some extent, and it would demonstrate hostility on his part, which would weaken a boys-will-be-boys type defense. I’m no lawyer, but it’s a thought. In any case joking about raping someone is shameful behavior, and people who insist that it’s nothing/just a joke/not serious ought to be made aware of this. One person’s amusement is not worth another’s security—it is blatantly misogynistic to harass someone, or to make them feel frightened or intimidated, for one’s own amusement. If they consider these jokes to be “nothing,” then they consider any sense of security their target loses to be worth even less. If they didn’t consider their amusement to be worth more they wouldn’t be making these comments—after all, if the comments are really nothing important, they wouldn’t lose anything by not making them. In any case, I agree with Mythago’s reasoning: There’s no reason Jill should have to feel harassed at school and every reason the bozos should have to explain to NYU why they’re just joking and not really threatening to rape a fellow student.
it depends on how you mean “seriously”. If you mean that threats of rape (in this context) should be taken seriously as it disrespects actual victims of rape and makes light a serious tramatic experiencce. sure i agree. i never said i didn’t think those posts about a hate-fuck weren’t distasteful and classless. i think they are. however, that doesn’t mean they should be taken serious as an actual threat, as in jill or anyone else is in actual danger. I think the idea that its some kind of actual threat or harassment is way out of line. Jill wouldn’t have even seen the posts if someone hasn’t directed her to them. no one contacted her directly or conveyed any actual intent to harm her. Unfortunately for people here that seem to disagree, just talking about wanting to rape or hate-fuck someone isn’t the same as threatening to do so. As i said above its distasteful and stupid, but not a threat. jill has also said she doesn’t feel threatened, but feels uncomfortable that people post about seeing her and her actions at school. That just comes along with putting yourself out there in the public sphere. if she is going to post her thoughts and opinions as well as her picture, then she has to accept that people may notice who she is and talk about when they see her in public.
xo posters, you’ve admitted that we “outsiders” (including Jill) don’t know how your board works, that we don’t get the jokes. So, when all this blew up, why did you react the way you did? When you discovered that Jill was upset and this stuff was being taken seriously, why did you react with sneering juvenile hostility? Here’s what should have happened — and would have happened, if you were actually ethical people with any basic grasp of how the world works: 1. People from xo should have contacted Feministe very politely with copious, abject apologies to Jill for anything that had made her uncomfortable. 2. People from xo should have made every effort to POLITELY reassure Jill that she was not in danger, and to explain the brand of “humor” on the board. 3. The individuals who made the specific remarks should have apologized a zillion times and made clear that they were “joking” and Jill was not being threatened. 4. People from xo should have visited this board and explained, in very polite language, what had happened, how their board worked. 5. People from xo should have listened respectfully when told how their actions were being interpreted, and tried to understand how they’d fucked up. 6. A serious discussion should have ensued on the xo board of how things had gotten out of hand. 7. The administrator of the xo board should have issued a statement and suggested guidelines for posting. 8. Every reference to Jill on the xo board should have been deleted. That’s just off the top of my head; others could come up with a better list. But here’s what actually happened: 1. People on xo mocked Jill incessantly on their own board. 2. People from xo then came over and mocked Jill, and us, here. 3. Most people from xo maintained that this whole thing was Jill’s fault for being such a left-wing feminazi bitch; while 4. Other people from xo who did try to “explain” things did so while maintaining that we’re all a bunch of alarmist fools and we just don’t get the glory of free speech that is xo. 5. People from xo came over here and aggressively ridiculed feminism and this site, telling us that we’re all either man-hating harpies or (if male) craven wimps.
“Here’s what should have happened — and would have happened, if you were actually ethical people with any basic grasp of how the world works: 1. People from xo should have contacted Feministe very politely with copious, abject apologies to Jill for anything that had made her uncomfortable.” why? xoxo isn’t a group, its just a forum. do you feel that anything jill or anyone else posts here represents you and you are responsibile for it? i don’t think its anyone’s job to make sure jill is comfortable “2. People from xo should have made every effort to POLITELY reassure Jill that she was not in danger, and to explain the brand of “humor” on the board.” again, its not posters at xoxo responsibility to make sure people who are exposed to the board and are offended understand it. nor is it the posters responsibility to reassure jill that she isn’t in danger 3. The individuals who made the specific remarks should have apologized a zillion times and made clear that they were “joking” and Jill was not being threatened. a zillion times seems a bit excessive, how about just a jillion 4. People from xo should have visited this board and explained, in very polite language, what had happened, how their board worked. again, see above. why is this anyone’s responsibility? 5. People from xo should have listened respectfully when told how their actions were being interpreted, and tried to understand how they’d fucked up. haha, “how they’d fucked up” so people here interpreted some posts in a certain way and that means everyone at xoxo “fucked up” 6. A serious discussion should have ensued on the xo board of how things had gotten out of hand. i don’t think so. the policy of the board is pretty much anything goes and posters are responsible for their own posts. 7. The administrator of the xo board should have issued a statement and suggested guidelines for posting. again, the xoxo administrator has no responsibility to suggest guidelines so the content doesn’t offend you or anyone else. 8. Every reference to Jill on the xo board should have been deleted. why? because it made her uncomfortable? if its personal information, like someone’s phone number or something fine, but if its people’s opinions, why? you seem to just list conclusions with no reason why. is this list just based on what you think is right or moral? who defines these ethics and why do people here that disagree with the xoxo policy invoke this idea of how the “world” works? is this blog and xoxo out of this world?
Mr. P, you forgot to address the implications in the last part of V’s comment. Curious absence, that.
lauren, if you mean: “But here’s what actually happened: 1. People on xo mocked Jill incessantly on their own board. 2. People from xo then came over and mocked Jill, and us, here. 3. Most people from xo maintained that this whole thing was Jill’s fault for being such a left-wing feminazi bitch; while 4. Other people from xo who did try to “explain” things did so while maintaining that we’re all a bunch of alarmist fools and we just don’t get the glory of free speech that is xo. 5. People from xo came over here and aggressively ridiculed feminism and this site, telling us that we’re all either man-hating harpies or (if male) craven wimps. ” again i don’t feel its my responsibility to defend the actions of others. all i can say is i don’t think any of those accusations apply to me. i never mocked Jill, i never said anything about jill’s or your political beleifs, in fact i would beleive we have similar sensibilites in this regard. i never mocked or attacked people who post here. the only one that might apply to me is #4 but when i’ve made comments about people overreacting i explained my reasoning and opinion. so i hope that addresses your curiousity
So, when all this blew up, why did you react the way you did? When you discovered that Jill was upset and this stuff was being taken seriously, why did you react with sneering juvenile hostility? xo is a messageboard with tens of thousands of users, most of whom likely know nothing about this situation, nor care… and the people most likely to care are flamebaiters/trolls who don’t mind a fight. It’s not a blog, and does not revolve around any particular individual or group of individuals. The actions of a couple of people do not reflect what everyone else believes. 1. People from xo should have contacted Feministe very politely with copious, abject apologies to Jill for anything that had made her uncomfortable. Or, Jill should have just posted on xo and made her case there directly, rather than condemning the site on her blog in a way that would provoke a negative reaction. 2. People from xo should have made every effort to POLITELY reassure Jill that she was not in danger, and to explain the brand of “humor” on the board. Nothing stopped her from going to the thread in question and replying “Hey, this is JillF, I don’t normally read this forum but someone pointed this out to me and I’m really freaked out blahblahblah.” History has shown that method very effective — for example, one individual who had been mocked on the site about a year ago (in a way far worse than anything ever written about Jill) showed up on the thread in question, confirmed that it was him, and directly confronted the individuals attacking him. The result? People not only stopped, but almost a year later people are writing about what a nice guy he was and how he handled the situation with dignity. 3. The individuals who made the specific remarks should have apologized a zillion times and made clear that they were “joking” and Jill was not being threatened. Umm, they did. 4. People from xo should have visited this board and explained, in very polite language, what had happened, how their board worked. See above about xo consisiting of tens of thousands of users with no central dominant individual or group of individuals, and about how most people really couldn’t care less about what an unrelated blog thinks of the site. Not to mention that posting people’s IP addresses didn’t really give the “nicer” posters much of an incentive to come here. 5. People from xo should have listened respectfully when told how their actions were being interpreted, and tried to understand how they’d fucked up. How they’d fucked up? Geez, that’s really non-judgmental. 6. A serious discussion should have ensued on the xo board of how things had gotten out of hand. Perhaps that would’ve happened if Jill had initiated a positive discussion there rather than posting attacks on external sites (and if Jill’s posts weren’t unreasonable, the initial comments certainly were). 7. The administrator of the xo board should have issued a statement and suggested guidelines for posting. Wow, just wow. No offense, but someone really has an over-inflated sense of this blog’s importance. 8. Every reference to Jill on the xo board should have been deleted. Yeah, because administrators have nothing better to do with their lives than sort through almost 5 million posts (as well as the 7,500-10,000 new posts coming in daily) to scratch out every reference to Jill (not to mention completely throw away the major philosophical selling points of the site). Come on, be realistic. As for the rest, see above about xo having tens of thousands of users and no central dominant authority that controls everyone’s actions.
Threats of rape should always be taken seriously. Despite the completely disingenous arguement about “break a leg” and “hate-fuck” the truth is that I can easily explain (and show source/proof) to someone who may be offended/fearful that “break a leg” is a common expression meaning “good luck”. I would be hard-pressed to find a source that “hate-fuck” or “rape” is a common expression for… Hmmmm. Rape is a violent act and threats of violent acts should always be taken seriously. Report it. If it’s not actionable, then no action will be taken. I you like to follow the logic tree then there is no reason not to report it. Im sure some anti-feminist will jump right in explaining how the act of reporting can “cause” the act of violence to actually happen – the typical threat of the already violent. I wish c-minus would write a song called “let’s Blame the Victim”, most favorite tune of oppressors everywhere. It’s funny that these supposedly intelligent college students do not recognize that it is their own self-interest to speak out against extremism wherever they find it. It is the people who go to far in their anti-feminism that inspire women to take to the courts to get freedom. Egregious behavior is what leads to lawsuits and court cases that make your garden-variety mysoginist’s life harder. So it’s in your own best interest to self-police the crazies so you can passive-agressivly hate in peace.
What I think that the people at xo don’t get is that, in this day and age, threats of rape and in general demeaning sexual violence ARE ONLY MADE AGAINST WOMEN. When was the last time you saw a woman in a public forum threatening to “fuck rape” some asshole? The very impossibility of such a thing is ultimate proof that feminism is more than necessary (I only say that because these people apparently still need such proof). And to counteract any possible twisted argument, no, I do NOT mean that I want women to be equally empowered to make such threats, on the contrary: I want a world of mutual respect in which the mere thought of such threats would be considered aberrant, and not relentlessly defended, even by people who are obviously intelligent and educated (that makes me shudder!) That’s what’s meant by a culture of rape: treating women as subhumans, or the possibility of doing so, which indeed starts with language. And the fact they “they didn’t really mean it” is absolutely irrelevant: the very fact that it’s possible, and in some circles, apparently, culturally acceptable to assert your rights to act sexual or any kind of violence on a woman, is not ok, and it only serves to perpetuate that “lesser human” status, in some form or another. And this is just one very small instance of what goes on in the world every day–and luckily it didn’t result in bodily harm, and it will stay that way. However, there are plenty of instances where women are raped, beaten, verbally abused and demeaned (in blatant or subtle ways, take your pick), and most of the said abuse starts with or is reflected in language. For those of you who think rape or “hate-fuck” is just a rough version of sex, mutually enjoyed, I wish I could tie you to a chair and make you see “Irreversible” (a film with Monica Belucci and Vincent Cassel) 10 times in a row. The technicalities of this dispute–how many posts, was she actually threatened, can she sue, OMG she posted my IP address, he’s not even and NYU student, etc.–are just technicalities. I think that one of the basic things Jill was upset about (and what every woman who read her story should be upset about) was the ugly manifestation of this inherent injustice in the world. And this is what this site is fighting against.
I love it that all the XO posters are now trying to move the goalposts and claim that threats made after threats of rape are somehow equal. Well, of course, they don’t believe they’re threats, because they don’t live in that world at all and don’t care to waste a few minutes trying to understand. And it’s only their opinion that counts. Yeah, there’s no rape culture at all. None. I hope you report it, Jill. IF these XO guys had apologized and then listened, and then apologized some more and displayed some kind of ability to reason, it would have indicated that they could learn. But they’ve done exactly the opposite: they’ve devoted a great deal of energy to minimizing, rationalizing, excusing, and justifying their actions. That means they believe in their actions and believe that they’re entitled to take those actions. That scares the shit out of me.
I agree, ginmar. The sense of entitlement makes me sick. Even if it was someone else making the threats, it wouldn’t hurt at all to distance yourself from those threats and say “hey, most of us are against rape”. To do otherwise, well, that just suggests that someone is very immature. We must all take responsibility for ourselves and the groups we choose to join. Personal responsibility isn’t just for women and minorities.
Where did I say that it was funny? You’ve now excused it as schtick. 😀 must be a blast at parties. And for all the excuses of hate-fucking being no more than angry sex between couples who’ve been fighting, none of the xo people have acknowledged the very pertinent factor that the people who think Jill should be hate-fucked are strangers to Jill.
What I think that the people at xo don’t get is that, in this day and age, threats of rape and in general demeaning sexual violence ARE ONLY MADE AGAINST WOMEN. When was the last time you saw a woman in a public forum threatening to “fuck rape” some asshole? About the only context in which I have seen men having rape wished upon them (by both men and women) is when they are being sent to prison. But unlike the XO people, who would do the honors themselves, the wished-for raping of men is outsourced to someone on the inside (usually a big, and nearly always black, cellmate, often named Bubba).
Speaking of vagina dentata, a fun link for y’all: http://www.queenofwands.net/d/20051017.html Vagina Dentata, to the tune of Hakuna Matata…… 🙂 enjoy.
In general, threats of rape should be taken seriously, absent a clear reason to do otherwise. A clear reason to do otherwise might be, let’s see: 1) The rape threat is directed at an imaginary being. 2) Two people have a consensual deal in which they both agree that it’s OK for one of them to make rape threats toward the other. They both understand the rules of their own weird game, and, if the person being threatened does start to feel that the game has crossed a line, their understanding allows for a way to say, hey, this is no longer cool, stop. Rape threats about someone toward whom the threatener is hostile sure aren’t “just joking,” or something to “lighten up” about. Now, to anonymous xo poster: I went and did a Google search for Jill site:xoxohth.com I trust folks here, whose record I know, more than I trust you, regarding just what went on at that board. But, all the same, I went and did a Google search on hate-fuck site:xoxohth.com, and had no trouble turning up the thread in which it’s suggested that she be raped for the nose-ring. Why we should be expected to see this as equivalent to saying she is hot, I can’t imagine. And I notice that this thread didn’t turn up immediately when I did the “Jill site:xoxohth.com” search, so it’s safe to assume that there have been more Jill threads, since August, than the ones that search turns up. Um, they did. Sure enough, the guy who made the post about raping her and the nose-ring has now, months later, apologized. The one who said he wanted to kick her in the box, as far as I can tell, hasn’t. And bunches of people are responding to D’s apology by compounding the offense, with headers from the one suggesting that women are only good for fucking, to the one that pretends to be Bill Clinton, looking to stalk Jill. That last leads me to an addendum to my point 1, above. Although threats to rape completely imaginary beings need not be taken seriously, posing as anything from a fictional character to an improbable celebrity, to suggest that someone be raped, stalked, or whatever, should, yes, be taken seriously as a form of harrassment. It is good to see D’s apology, though; it goes to show that Jill’s shift from the “just ignore it” strategy to actually blogging about how these posts make her feel has had a good effect on someone. Score one for sticking up for yourself. As for all the legal stuff, look, I’m not a lawyer, but I have been in the work force for a good long while, and I have been through sexual harrassment training on the job. The point at which a company will take a complaint about sexual harrassment seriously falls well short (as indeed it should) of someone actually having physically attacked someone. If my coworkers ever start joking about raping me, and keep on excusing said joke after I’ve made it clear it’s not cool by me, and my company finds out about it, they’re not going to just laugh it off. So, sure, random Texas A&M sophomore who has now apologized is probably not in danger of being hauled off to jail, but if you imagine it’s only feminists who ever take real offense at going on about raping and stalking someone, and you act on that assumption in the regular corporate world, you may regret it. Heck, I’ve known someone to get fired just for surfing porn at work, which seems a rather less grave workforce offense.
So let me get this straight, not only should we not take rape threats seriously when they are towards a specific person and posted on a board where other comments also talk about “sightings” of said person- even though its’ perfectly normal and not at all overreacting for major airlines to refuse to place unattended children next to single men (but not single women) for fear of molestation (in a crowded public place, in case anyone needs reminding) – but… we’re simply being hysterical and need to learn to take a joke. Now, you’re the ones that are being hysterical. Really cracking me up you are. Jill, I think you should do whatever makes you feel most comfortable, but I would appreciate it if you did report the more violent comments. Not because I’m all that certain you are in any danger (if I thought so, I’d proabably ask more strongly) but because I think if there is anyone who is likely to be violent towards women and children it’s guys like these (not random single men on airplanes) and having it on record somewhere can’t hurt down the line in terms of keeping them away from women and children if they do do something.
but because I think if there is anyone who is likely to be violent towards women and children it’s guys like these (not random single men on airplanes) and having it on record somewhere can’t hurt down the line in terms of keeping them away from women and children if they do do something. Judgmental much?
Judgmental much? Ha ha ha ha ha! Oh, sweet Jesus, that made my fucking day. Yeah, rape survivors, sexual-assault survivors, and women who’ve been stalked, harassed, threatened, and demeaned with sexist language–not infrequently in a series of related attacks!–are really judgmental.
Judgmental much? Notice the line preceding about “if they do do something“? So long as they don’t do anything it won’t matter any more than the record someone has for any other misdemeanours – an irrelevance in daily life. It only matters when it comes time for the sentencing recommendations if they do do something.
When was the last time you saw a woman in a public forum threatening to “fuck rape” some asshole? Well, I am a female and I publically told one of my friends (male) that I would assrape him if he didn’t stop being an annoying bastard. I was joking. He knew it, and so did everyone else present. They did it too. Not an “appropriate” comment, and certainly not nice or polite, but all of the people present were perfectly aware of my actual meaning, were used to such outrageous comments, and didn’t, therefore, take it seriously. I’ve heard ‘rape threats’ made by males to other males, females to males, males to females, and females to females. Perhaps it is my age group (finishing high school), but in a certain context (messing around with friends, talking casually) saying “I’ll rape you” or “I’d fuck so-and-so” is no more serious than “I’ll kill you”; which is to say, not at all. People talk about wanting celebrities dead, wanting to fuck them, etc., as well. In some ways it sounds like Jill was being regarded as a celebrity: hotness debated, claims of ‘sightings’ made, and so on. Stupid, but internet distances people. I really don’t want to make a call on Jill’s experience though, since I’m just browsing through here and haven’t looked into it as thoroughly as she has. This is mainly just a response to the specific comment. In any case, I’m sorry Jill was made to feel bad. I was verbally sexually harassed for a year in middle school; worst experience of my life.
Perhaps it is my age group Perhaps is it also that you were talking to friends, who knew you and knew that you had a) no intention and b) likely, no ability to carry out the comment. If a stranger who already expressed hostility to you had talked in your hearing about how you needed a good assraping, would you laugh it off as a crazy high school thing? And no, it’s not unique to your generation for people to express hostility or annoyance through threats of sexual violence.
Longer XO:I’m posting this here since Lauren closed comments in the other thread and this simply must be said. Everything I say is important. How dare you choose not to listen. I don’t take no for an answer. 1. Have you actually read the threads in question? Hysterical girl. Because I have, and not one of them said anything resembling the latter statement. This is the only thread I can find posted on the board by someone who claimed to know Jill in person, and he never said such a thing. If I am unable to find the data you used and you do not hand it to me on a silver platter, I am automatically correct. 1. Except it didn’t happen repeatedly over six months of time. Stupid girl- I define reality! If you search the thread filter for “Jill” and ignore the threats that weren’t really threats not about Jill F, you’ll see that there were only a handful of threads about her posted before January, and the others were primarily concentrated in August, see, if I take two apples from your five apples than I have two apples so five minus two is two after someone posted a link to her blog. If Jill would only be nice on her blog she wouldn’t have this problem. 1. Except her classmates are not posting about her in such a manner. Stupid girl – I define reality! In fact, every post by someone claiming to be one of her classmates has been either neutral or positive. As long as someone wants to f*** her under any circumstances she should be grateful.I know you’re probably not trying to deliberately mislead people it said, patting her on the head, but posting incorrect statements and claiming that they’re true is really doing a disservice to your readers. Now that I’ve taken time out of MY day to explain this I hope you will finally heel, I mean heed, me. 1. Do you honestly think that anything written is actionable under criminal or civil statute or common law? This is only rhetorical. Now I shall answer without any proof. My word is law. Woot! I’ll break it down for you since you probably cant find the statute yourself being a girl and all–it isn’t. Because I say so that’s why. Sure you can try to sue in tort for some of the things said, but you’d fail, each and every time. I know exactly how this will play in court because I watch Law & Order every week. Call a ADA and see if they’d be interested in the case. Any random ADA will do because they all are exactly alike and so are all the laws in each state. Hell call the FCC and see what they think. Time for meds, hold on. 2. For the hell of it I called my imaginary uncle in the D.A.’s office in NY. My dick is soooo big and oh, yeah, I gots connections, baby. He told me this was why they have people to screen out calls. He actually said “Im very busy what with all the murder and rape cases. Why are you calling me during business hours asking me stupid questions that any first year law student with half a brain could answer? 1. I’m not really sure how Jill’s intent is in any way relevant even though Im supposed to be a hot shot lawyer-to-be with many lawyerly-like connections to the question of whether a complaint brought by her would be actionable. The actionability of the claim was the reason I called my imaginary Uncle, not because I had any desire to bring the complaint on Jill’s behalf. But because I thought that you would cave when you understood how powerful I am in real life. 1. There’s been a lot of discussion regarding the legality of some of the statements made. The imaginary call was placed as a natural outgrowth of my curiosity as to whether there was much merit behind those posters that have suggested that the comments rose to the level of an actionable claim. You obviously don’t understand how important I am or you would shut up already with all this legal mumbo-jumbo. I’m not entirely sure why you’re giving me such an attitude, I deserve your respect YOU’RE the one who has to earn mine I’ve done or said nothing that was meant to be offensive. Unless you’re a sensitive girly-man Get over the persecution complex, if you don’t agree with me your obviously hysterical not everyone is against you. Especially not me. I am your friend whether you like it or not. Now open wide. 1. I don’t think your reaction is in any way unreasonable Jill, now see how friendly I can be? Bask in the glow of my approval but I’m not really surprised by the reaction from xoxo either. Boys will be boys. I’ve never posted on xoxo but I’ve lurked for a long time and I can say you were barely a blip on the radar over there; when they were only TALKING about raping you not advocating it however, if someone was talking about me, even infrequently, in such a manner I’d likely think it was a big deal too. There, see, I’ve agreed that you may have feelings I approve of so get off my back biotchs. 1. Hey Laur, you seem to have tense issues. Past, present, future. Those are the three tenses. Period. I said I HAVE never done something. When that statement was written it was true. When I/other posters wrote that stuff about rape we didn’t intend to rape you WHEN WE WROTE IT. So the fact that we raped you later doesn’t count. If you weren’t so emotional you could understand the logic because I have BOLDED the important points for you. That I followed it by something offensive has NO BEARING on the previous statement. I am going to try this as my argument in court. My imaginary DA Uncle said it’s an easy win. 1. Thanks for the heads-up, being bi-racial African/Caucasian I had never realized that. And being white (my assumption) you therefore don’t get to have an opinion about minorities. And if you challage me, you are a racist hypocrite. So there. 2. Lauren or Jill, real classy of you to not approve my comment in the other post I determine your value. You do not get to decide things about your blog unless I approve. Why don’t you want people to know how few negative posts were actually made about Jill during that period? I get to decide the threshold for tolerating negative threats plus I get to define what negative means. But Im very fair. And just. I think it was the president of Harvard who just proved that men are more logical than women. That’s why they cant be scientists. 1. How does a Texas A&M sophomore making a few posts that Jill is hot,no matter how many times she asked them to stop in reference to a picture she feely posted online, it’s obvious she was asking for it translate into her being harassed at NYU Law? Because if you live on say 42nd street, and you threaten someone on say, 43rd street over the phone then you arnt really harassing them anywhere but on the telephone line and you have to actually threaten them IN A PLACE. Like if You are in a place or THEY are in a place. Because the place they are when you threaten them matters because like if you’re in one place and they are in another than there’s no way they could actually BELIEVE that you could really carry through on your threats because like, you’d have to, like, use transportation. 1. Okay, since my last comments have been approved I’ll assume that it’s Jill I hope you know that you are lucky to have my approval moderating and not Lauren who is crazy – she thinks my opinion doesn’t matter, can you believe the nerve?. So, I’ll try to repost what I said before. Pay attention this time because what I say is IMPORTANT. 1. I went and did a Google search for Jill site:xoxohth.com Look upon my superior research techniques and be amazed! In my earlier post which did not get approved because Lauren’s mean and if she doesn’t shape up I may not let her screw me, I itemized the exact # of posts. I don’t have the time to do all that work again so the numbers aren’t going to be exact, but I swear baby, Ill pull out it was roughly something like this: 15 posts about Jills other than you And as long as we arnt threatening YOU why should you care? And why should we care that you care? 12 posts about Jill posted by :D, a Texas A&M University sophomore who has never been to New York has never heard of planes, trains or automobiles and is unable to use any of them anyway, mostly saying that Jill is hot or fuckable, same difference. I do not value connotations and therefore neither may you. (in reference to Jill’s facebook photo, which she freely posted online). She ASKED for it! 1 post about Jill by someone who doesn’t go to NYU and is unfamiliar with the term “travel” who was replying to :D, who did not comment on Jill’s appearance even if they did comment on her whereabouts 1 post about Jill by someone who does go to NYU, who did not comment on Jill’s appearance 1 post about Jill pointing out Jill’s blog post about xo She brought it on. If she had just kept her legs closed, I mean mouth shut, she would be fine. Even if we are generous I’m being generous so you owe me now and assume that your name was mentioned in 20 posts, let’s put that in context… 20 posts on a board that gets 2,500,000 posts per year. Hardly a big topic of conversation, Your honor, 20 murders out of 25,000 alone this year is hardly anything to get excited about. My client… sorry, my imaginary Uncle taught me that wicked defense I was just practicing. Totally rad, no? especially since virtually all of those 20 posts were concentrated in a four day period in August And everyone knows that breaking the law in August is not really breaking the law. Especially if you concentrate the law-breaking into small periods. (when the Miss NYU thing was being discussed). You’re getting this reaction from xo because there was no real threat here. I define threat, no you. Now sit back while I tell you what to believe. Language is a social construct, and words used in one forum can mean something completely different in another forum. If someone says “anashi, I hope you break a leg!” on an acting message board, it’ll mean something completely different than if someone says “anashi, I hope you break a leg!” in the middle of a heated argument in a bar — while the latter statement is almost certainly someone wishing you bodily harm, the former statement is something positive, with the speaker almost certainly wishing you good luck. Even though Im a really smart law student, I get confused by the difference between wishing someone broke their leg and urging someone to rape someone else. But no mere female could see through my fallacious logic so I shall beat to death this analogy. It’s the same situation here — if someone came to this blog and said “someone should rape Jill” it’ll mean something completely different than if someone posts that on xo because we’re not, like, totally fridgid lesbians (especially a known schtick poster like :D).And if you don’t think rape is funny you’re just not trying! Every single frequent (and not-so-frequent) xo reader knows that a statement like that coming from someone like 😀 is not a threat. And I repeat – I define what is a threat, Not you, not the law, me. Why wont you stay learned? Few people are arguing that you guys, as outsiders, are idiots for not knowing about the intricacies of our community’s culture. If you study hard one day we might except you into our club. If your very compliant we might even give you our approval. However, given that so many xo posters have tried to explain this to you and you will still not accept that they get to define reality it keeps falling on deaf ears, it shouldn’t surprise you that a few are starting to lose patience. Better shape up or no more with the nicey-nicey missy. It’s one thing for you to think that the expression itself is inappropriate or distasteful, but it’s really ridiculous for some of you to claim that 😀 truly intended for someone to rape Jill How can you contradict either of our assertions? Do you realize we are men? White. With money. And many imaginary Uncles., just like it would be ridiculous for someone reading an acting forum to think that a poster on there would truly want another poster to have his leg broken. Because xo is the fantasy-rape forum, it says so on the masthead. Only fantasy-rapists may post in our highly intellectual discussions. 1. And a law enforcement agency would not take your word (or anyone else’s) that he is a threat without doing a thorough investigation. Ill pretend to agree so you don’t see my tricky way of discouraging you. Im soooo smart! I could like, totally be a lawyer. That said, it’s really not hard at all to tell that our communities are very different. I don’t pontificate on the intentions of your community members unless you define pontificate as lecturing someone on a subject. Like say, how they should take rape threats. Then maybe I pontificated a little. (several of whom have threatened violence against us, see, if I hit you 20 times and you hit me once after I hit you than my original hit was totally justified, It’s a four-year law thing, you wouldn’t understand such as Terry Im not afraid of you!, who I quoted in the other thread so they could see how it was, like, totally cool to threaten Jill in the first place), so it would be much appreciated and my approval is necessary for your well-being if you didn’t make similar pronouncements about what people like 😀 intend without knowing all the underlying background information. Like size, girth, wealth and imaginary relatives. 1. There is nothing to excuse because no threats were actually made. As I said above, :D’s statement was a rape threat in the same way someone saying “Break a leg!” to an actor is a threat of physical violence. You might not know this as an outsider speaker of English, but our community knows it rape means “ask her for coffee” in Estonian, and that’s why it gets no reaction — we know who 😀 is even though we claimed earlier not to know anyone on the message board (a couple in real life), know how he behaves, and know it’s not a real threat. He’s a fake threat. You cant rape a slut, anyways. So, from the perspective of our community members, you saying “but your community excuses rape threats” is no different than you telling an acting community “but your community excuses physical violence.” Except that it is in the sense that break a leg is an expression meaning “good luck” and “rape her immediately” means “rape her immediately”. But not for serious. I don’t understand why you haven’t caved under the overwhelming power of my arguments. Did I mention my Uncle? In any case, I find it ironic defined in xo language as “zoo-keeper” that so many commenters here attack us for not condemning :D, yet not a single commenter here has condemned Terry or several other commenters who threatened physical violence against our posters. Their hypocrisy proves that Jill only got what she deserved in the first place. 1. Where did I say that [rape] it was funny? Except for my tacit approval and insistent defense that our board engages in such spirited wordplay for amusement purposes only. 2. There’s absolutely no need for insults. I’ve been nothing but civil if you define civility as “excusing the inexcusable” with you people [insert appropriate insulting miority term] and I’d appreciate receiving the same courtesy. We don’t like to be treated badly the way you people do. 1. No, what I don’t get is how one individual, a Texas A&M sophomore whose on probation and cant leave the state anyway, commenting on Jill’s appearance based on a picture she freely posted on the internet with her makeup all applied anyone can see she was asking for it, translates into her feeling sexually harassed I decide how she can feel by classmates at NYU Law who did not post a single thing about her appearance.and will never be able to meet the Texas A&M sophomore because of the whole probation thing. 1. In any case, I find it ironic that so many commenters here attack us for not condemning :D, yet not a single commenter here has condemned Terry or several other commenters who threatened physical violence against our posters. 2. I was just about to type this myself. At last someone has had an idea – now my other idea wont feel so alone Perhaps internet threats are kosher in certain situations? I don’t understand how circumstances or intent play a part in defining the morality or legality of actions. Maybe I should have shown up for some of my law classes. 3. Caja, you aren’t echoing what anashi said. What you typed is above, and makes sense. Because I say so. But such is life. Or some random, meaningless cliché Nobody is universally loved the Jews even killed Jesus (call me crazy but I think a few of you might have ill will towards me at least I hope so because negative attention is the only kind I know how to get or value). Some people might have thoughts you don’t agree with. Green bananas will give you the runs. But thoughts do not equal actions. And thoughts and words written online are the same thing, so words written online do not equal actions. Even if I do the actions I’ve written online it does not equal the thoughts I had beforehand and doesn’t count. 4. Anashi seems to think this will be grounds for expulsion, a court case, etc. This is why some of us are debating with him. Instead of being totally confident in the knowledge that we are right. Cause we are right. You have to take our words for it, for we are men. 1. What kind of background information makes it okay to threaten to break someone’s leg? As my analogy, already hideously deformed suddenly dies from my final beat-down. 1. How many of xo’s almost 5 million posts fit that criteria? See, if you only do SOME bad things and others do way more you can only get in SOME trouble but not really because I will break down you logic with my kick-ass arguments so you’ll never tell. And of those, how many are classified as off-topic rather than school-related? Im going to go look up non-sequitor but Ill be right back! 2. Actually don’t even bother answering because holding up these lame analogies is really hurting my arms. You’re not supposed to be arguing with me. I am NOT sullen and whiny!; if you don’t like the site, just don’t read it. Because if you don’t read things then they dont exist. Problem solved. Did I win yet? My mom says I’m always a winner so it must be true. 1. it depends on how you mean “seriously”. Xo definition of seriously is “Annoying feminist” If you mean that threats of rape (in this context) should be taken seriously watch how I pretend to agree in this sentence but then use my T14 brain to redefine actual meaning so I totally condradict what I just said. as it disrespects actual victims of rape and makes light a serious tramatic experiencce. sure i agree. i never said i didn’t think those posts about a hate-fuck weren’t distasteful and classless. I also never told you about how when I read them Cheetos came out my nose. That 😀 is a riot man! i think they are. Or at least Ill pretend to. Dad was right. Never let women go to college. however, that doesn’t mean they should be taken serious as an actual threat they should be taken as a fake threat because in xo threat=fake threat., as in jill or anyone else is in actual danger. Besides, once we start I just know she’ll really get into it. Volume 234 of Busty Babes says even if they act like they don’t like it they really do. I think the idea that its some kind of actual threat or harassment is way out of line. As I said, the fact that is IS a threat shouldn’t be taken as a threat because we have different definitions of threat. And funny. And “rape”. Jill wouldn’t have even seen the posts if someone hasn’t directed her to them. It’s not like she knows how to Google no one contacted her directly or conveyed any actual intent to harm her. Only threats made TO the actual people are real threats. Unfortunately for people here that seem to disagree, you need to throw away your Websters and get in touch with the xo dictionary. just talking about wanting to rape or hate-fuck someone isn’t the same as threatening to do so. No matter how much it may seem like it to you, cops, DAs or other lawyers. As i said above its distasteful and stupid, I only defend it because I care about you but not a threat. 2. jill has also said she doesn’t feel threatened, but feels uncomfortable that people post about seeing her and her actions at school. So stop making us wet ourselves at the thought that we may be responsible for what we say or do. That just comes along with putting yourself out there in the public sphere. She deserves whatever she has coming to her. if she is going to post her thoughts and opinions she should know that no man will ever take her seriously as if she was, like a real person or something as well as her picture, then she has to accept that people may notice who she is and talk about when they see her in public. And tell other people, who have expressed the intent to harm her, where she is. 1. “Here’s what should have happened — and would have happened, if you were actually ethical people with any basic grasp of how the world works: 1. People from xo should have contacted Feministe very politely with copious, abject apologies to Jill for anything that had made her uncomfortable.” why? I get civility handed to me it is YOU who have to earn it xoxo isn’t a group, its just a forum. do you feel that anything jill or anyone else posts here represents you and you are responsibile for it? Even though you obviously do or you wouldn’t moderate i don’t think its anyone’s job to make sure jill is comfortable because we have different definitions of civility. “2. People from xo should have made every effort to POLITELY reassure Jill that she was not in danger, and to explain the brand of “humor” on the board.” again, its not posters at xoxo responsibility to make sure people who are exposed to the board and are offended understand it. nor is it the posters responsibility to reassure jill that she isn’t in danger I only hit you cause I love you baby. 3. The individuals who made the specific remarks should have apologized a zillion times and made clear that they were “joking” and Jill was not being threatened. a zillion times seems a bit excessive, how about just a jillion I cant use a dictionary or argue logically but I got sarcasm down pat. 4. People from xo should have visited this board and explained, in very polite language, what had happened, how their board worked. again, see above. why is this anyone’s responsibility? Especially not the offensive poster>. Jill is supposed to kiss his butt until he relents and approves or her. Also, she needs to lose some weight and wear less makeup. 5. People from xo should have listened respectfully when told how their actions were being interpreted, and tried to understand how they’d fucked up. haha, “how they’d fucked up” so people here interpreted some posts in a certain way and that means everyone at xoxo “fucked up” Ive explained over and over that some things are euphemisms even though I never explained what “rape her immediately” means you shouldn’t challenge me. 6. A serious discussion should have ensued on the xo board of how things had gotten out of hand. i don’t think so. the policy of the board is pretty much anything goes unless you challenge our authority and then you’re bad. Bad. and posters are responsible for their own posts. Even though I just implied in #5 that no one is responsible for what they write. 7. The administrator of the xo board should have issued a statement and suggested guidelines for posting. again, the xoxo administrator has no responsibility to suggest guidelines so the content doesn’t offend you or anyone else. And he’s busy. His ball and chain got a little uppity so he has to go “take care of business”. It’s a euphemism. You wouldn’t understand. 8. Every reference to Jill on the xo board should have been deleted. why? because it made her uncomfortable? if its personal information, like someone’s phone number or something fine, but if its people’s opinions, why? Jill’s whereabouts on a given day is not like, a fact, it’s an opinion, and a threat is also an opinion. You really need to get a better dictionary. you seem to just list conclusions with no reason why that I will accept. is this list just based on what you think is right or moral? who defines these ethics besides ethics committees and religions and laws and why do people here that disagree with the xoxo policy invoke this idea of how the “world” works? The world will bow to me. My Thai girlfriend says so. is this blog and xoxo out of this world? Even though in the world that kind of talk would get us fired or whatever. 1. lauren, if you mean: “But here’s what actually happened: 1. People on xo mocked Jill incessantly on their own board. 2. People from xo then came over and mocked Jill, and us, here. 3. Most people from xo maintained that this whole thing was Jill’s fault for being such a left-wing feminazi bitch; while 4. Other people from xo who did try to “explain” things did so while maintaining that we’re all a bunch of alarmist fools and we just don’t get the glory of free speech that is xo. 5. People from xo came over here and aggressively ridiculed feminism and this site, telling us that we’re all either man-hating harpies or (if male) craven wimps. ” again i don’t feel its my responsibility to defend the actions of others. Even though that is the content of all my posts. all i can say is i don’t think any of those accusations apply to me. i never mocked Jill, i never said anything about jill’s or your political beleifs, in fact i would beleive we have similar sensibilites in this regard. i never mocked or attacked people who post here. the only one that might apply to me is #4 even though I just said none of them apply to me. And explaining is not the same as defending. but when i’ve made comments about people overreacting which might be taken as condescending and therefore mean I violated #3 except I only violated #4 except none of them applied to me. i explained my reasoning and opinion. And you are to take it as the Word. Have I mentioned my Uncle?so i hope that addresses your curiousity Im running out of things to try to slip past you. 1. xo is a messageboard with tens of thousands of users, most of whom likely know nothing about this situation, nor care… and the people most likely to care are flamebaiters/trolls who don’t mind a fight. It’s not a blog, and does not revolve around any particular individual or group of individuals. The actions of a couple of people do not reflect what everyone else believes. They only reflect behavior we will defend and laugh at in the safety of our own rooms. 1. Or, Jill should have just posted on xo and made her case there directly, rather than condemning the site on her blog in a way that would provoke a negative reaction. You are not allowed to yell at us. I am not pouting. She didn’t play by the rules we set. It’s just not fair. Im telling my Uncle.1. Nothing stopped her from going to the thread in question and replying “Hey, this is JillF, I don’t normally read this forum but someone pointed this out to me and I’m really freaked out blahblahblah.” If she would just admit that we are superior we would all stop harassing her. 2. Listen, as I tell you a fable that may help clarify what you should do:(Wow, I really am a lot like Jesus) History has shown that method very effective — for example, one individual who had been mocked on the site about a year ago (in a way far worse than anything ever written about Jill) showed up on the thread in question, confirmed that it was him, and directly confronted the individuals attacking him. The result? People not only stopped, but almost a year later people are writing about what a nice guy he was and how he handled the situation with dignity. Little girls who tell never see their parents again. Pass this fable on to three people in the next three minutes or something bad will happen to you. 1. See above about xo consisiting of tens of thousands of users with no central dominant individual or group of individuals, and about how most people really couldn’t care less about what an unrelated blog thinks of the site. Do you think I look fat in this? 2. Not to mention that posting people’s IP addresses didn’t really give the “nicer” posters much of an incentive to come here. You brought it on yourselves. 1. How they’d fucked up? Geez, that’s really non-judgmental. Only I get to be the judge. I have the gavel-thingy and all. 1. Perhaps that would’ve happened if Jill had initiated a positive discussion there about how she’d be happy to be their friend if they promised not to hurt her rather than posting attacks on external sites where everyone is not bowled over by my wit and logic. Curious, that. (and if Jill’s posts weren’t unreasonable, the initial comments certainly were). Reason is defined on xo as – only WE get to be mean or make threats. You cave or don’t play. You really need to read our dictionary so you don’t keep screwing up like this. 1. Wow, just wow. No offense, but someone really has an over-inflated sense of this blog’s importance. If I belittle you. you will realize how unimportant you are and how important I am. 1. Yeah, because administrators have nothing better to do with their lives than sort through almost 5 million posts eating Cheetos, drinking beer and rating chicks is exhausting, you have no idea (as well as the 7,500-10,000 new posts coming in daily) to scratch out every reference to Jill or to like, search for phrases like “hate-fuck” or “rape her”(not to mention completely throw away the major philosophical selling points of the site – XO: fantasy-rape someone in your life today!). Come on, be realistic. Do exactly what I say and no one will get hurt. I’m warning you. 2. As for the rest, see above about xo having tens of thousands of users and no central dominant authority that controls everyone’s actions. Or knows how to search for phrases, or like, moderate anything. 1. Judgmental much? That extremely small voice in my head just started laughing.
Yo, Jill, just buy a keychain that has a canister of pepper spray attached to it. Since potential rape is the problem, you know where to aim. New York hasn’t banned pepper spray, right? Hopefully, they haven’t lowered potential victims to the level of using Taekwondo or speed-dialing 911. New York hasn’t banned Taekwondo, right?
Oh, damn, I forgot Lauren wanted that question answered. My answer: all threats should be taken seriously, whether they be threats of rape or any other type of violence. Rape is a serious crime. Therefore, rape threats should be taken seriously. Word.
Perhaps is it also that you were talking to friends, who knew you and knew that you had a) no intention and b) likely, no ability to carry out the comment. If a stranger who already expressed hostility to you had talked in your hearing about how you needed a good assraping, would you laugh it off as a crazy high school thing? That would be the way the xo posters would see the situation as being though: talking to friends. So far as I know from reading this blog, none of them ever directly communicated hostility to Jill, by email to her or whatnot. And the tone I got when I read the posts on that site was a very casual, relaxed one, so I am not surprised to see them write as they did. In your hypothetical situation, I would have to say it would depend on a lot of things, particularly what kind of person the stranger was (age mostly) and the extent of their hostility. If it was someone I beat in a competition, for example, then I would laugh it off. If it was someone I had been debating, or who I disagreed with over an issue, then I would laugh it off. If it was someone I’d had a physical fight with, then no, I wouldn’t. My reaction would be entirely dependent on the specifics of the situation.
The standard advice given to women in abusive relationships is that if he says it, eventually he’ll do it. Women know when a guy is kidding and when the joke is masking real hostility. My answer is, if it feels like a threat, it’s a threat. Always take it seriously.
And a question – what does the ISP say in its terms of service? I know if someone were to threaten me, their admin would get an immediate copy of the post. Also, you don’t owe anyone anything. This is your house, and you’re under no obligation to tolerate abuse from visitors. Delete assholes freely and without regret. Feministe doesn’t have to be a democracy. There is absolutlely nothing funny about rape, and any guy who thinks there is needs therapy.