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The Rights of Children – Yeah, I Went There

The U.N Convention on the Rights of the Child is the latest in a line of international agreements on the human rights of children and has been ratified by every member of the United Nations with the exception of Somalia and the United States. Somalia hasn’t refused to ratify the treaty, they’ve just not had the institutions in place to make treaty ratification a reality. In the US, the Convention has met staunch opposition from the right where opponents argue that it strips away parental rights, conflicts with the US Constitution and is generally bad news. So what does the heinous piece of international law say?

Well of course you can read it here and draw your own conclusions. But here’s my summary.

Children have rights to life, identity, nationality, knowledge of and care by hir parents, self-expression, thought, conscience, religion, free association, privacy, access to health care, access to resources to allow children with disabilities to fully participate in the community, education, and leisure.

Signatory governments have obligations to protect children from neglect and abuse as well as to provide financial, development, and psychological support.

The main objections (that I’ve seen) are coming primarily from groups that oppose six key concepts which I believe almost all of us would agree to support.

1. Children have the right to privacy. Objection: Abortion.
2. Children have the right to freedom of conscience, religion, and expression. Objection: Children are not allowed to think or express thoughts that their parents have not pre-approved.
3. Children have the right to freedom of assembly. Objection: Gangs!
4. Children have the right to an education. Objection: Sex education!*
5. Children may not be subjected to cruel and unusual punishment which includes the imposition of the death penalty or life imprisonment without parole. Objection: Sovereignty!
6. Parents and guardians should consider the best interests of children. Objection: Parental Rights!

I not sure any reasonable reading of the Convention would by necessity lead to these outcomes, but – to be honest – I’d be thrilled if it did, except for the gangs of course.

But one objection, and the one most likely to keep the US from ratifying this treaty, is probably controversial even amongst the Feministe Commentariat.

Article 19 provides that “States Parties shall take all appropriate legislative, administrative, social and educational measures to protect the child from all forms of physical or mental violence, injury or abuse, neglect or negligent treatment, maltreatment or exploitation, including sexual abuse, while in the care of parent(s), legal guardian(s) or any other person who has the care of the child.”

Some have read this provision as outlawing all forms of corporal punishment including spankings.

That’s right spankings. I went there.

But before we all start typing in caps, I want to see if its possible to have this conversation in a way that focuses on the institutional effects of these objections on children and how our objections reflect our values.

What does it say about how USians value children we are unwilling to take measures to protect them from “all forms of physical or mental violence”?

What does it say about whether we regard children as fully human that the fundamental rights granted to all people under the U.S. Constitution – the rights to privacy and to freedom of religion, assembly and expression – are explicitly denied to children?

What does it say about the power dynamic between parents and children that that we object to the idea that parents should be required to act in the best interests of their children?

In the end, I think it means that for our lip service to the idea that children are our top priority, when the rubber hits the road – as a society – our desire to control children is far greater than our desire to protect them or our respect for their humanity.

——
*Home school advocates argue that these provisions would prohibit home schooling and would mandate sex education including potentially at religious schools. In my opinion home schooling or alternative communities schools can be wonderful alternatives to an educational system that fails far too many students. So I would definitely support a “reservation” (essentially a yes, but we are going to do X regardless of whether its interpreted to conflict with the Convention) that allows for the continuation of those methods of providing education. What do you think?

——
With the understanding that this is often a fraught conversation, I would like to make a few special *requests*. First, please try to listen without reflexive defensiveness. Second, I know that parents are under a lot of pressure to be a “good” parent, and often a “good” parent is defined by kyriarchal norms. At the same time, there is another vector of oppression here and this isn’t about you personally or your children specifically. Rather its about whether children as a class, including those that don’t have caring parents to protect them, deserve the protection of broader society. Finally, please try not to make this thread about what one or another parent does wrong. If we want to talk about parenting techniques, I will be happy to open another thread, but I’d like to center children in this thread…not just one or two of them, but children as a class.

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203 thoughts on The Rights of Children – Yeah, I Went There

  1. Here’s what it comes down to: children are people. Yep, I went there. Children are people with rights, just like everyone else. Yet many many Americans – including my own parents – see children as essentially the possessions of their parents. Parents OWN their children, and any attempt to say that the child has rights of his or her own is interpreted as a sort of government takeover of children, a road toward a socialist marxist dictatorship. As a mother, I totally disagree with this. I don’t own my child. She has rights, she is a person, etc.

    Also, can we please call spanking what it is? It’s hitting children. Yes, hitting. To call it anything else obscures the point.

  2. We have home schooling in Canada. A home education is still considered an education, so it doesn’t conflict with the Convention.

  3. I think this issue is complicated. Not the treaty, which the U.S. should obviously sign onto, but the details of what we mean when we talk about the best interests of the child (which is, after all, the prevailing standard in virtually every family law dispute) or about children’s rights or about parental rights and responsibilities.

    Because yes, children are people. But children are not fully autonomous people — they need someone to make decisions on their behalf, whether that’s choosing what type of education they receive or deciding whether to consent to a specific medical treatment or selecting the type of shelter and food and clothing they will have access to. We can have debates at the margins about how much input children should have in those decisions — both legally and morally — and how best to take their views into consideration, but there will always be some age below which children cannot as a practical matter (and, I would argue, as a matter of what is in their long-term best interest) be given all of the same control over their own life that adults receive.

    What I find frustrating about these conversations is that it seems like the acknowledgment of children’s rights becomes an end point. I know it’s an important first step, and I too would like to see more people explicitly recognize that children have rights, because that’s a really under-developed idea in society at large at the moment. But it is also, in many ways, the easy part. We can get most reasonable people to come around to the idea that children have rights and deserve some say in what happens to them. The tricky part is what that looks like as a practical matter. Where are the areas in which we think parents are best placed to make decisions on behalf of their children? Where are the areas in which the state should be able to intervene? How can we tell what the best interests of a child are? How can we encourage parents to consider their children’s expressed wishes when making decisions on their behalf? I really hope this conversation will be centered on those questions, because they’re fascinating and incredibly important and all too often we get sidetracked before getting to them.

  4. In New Zealand we have recently got over the furore about the child-smacking issue. wikipedia on Section 59 has a bit of a summary. The interesting thing for me wasn’t the debate per se, it was the examples of “parents being persecuted” that the pro-smacking crowd produced. And how utterly awful they were. Yes, they really used the case of a man who punched his five year old in the face as an example of how “sensible discipline” wouldn’t be allowed. I suspect it was that as much as anything else that persuaded most people to accept the law. It’s very hard to stand up and say “I, too, want to discipline my children like that”.

    The homeschooling I’m less convinced of. Again, in NZ it’s less common, perhaps because there are tighter rules and more requirements for measurable outcomes. I suspect it would be easy to comply with the treaty just by using the same standardised tests that schools do and mandating that children meet some reasonable level. It would mean that homeschooling parents will find it hard to produce completely incompetent children. But then, that would doubtlessly upset the parents who are trying to produce that outcome… “my child will never be taught the majority views of US history or evolution” doesn’t sit well with “but will pass a test on those subjects”.

    Some of the homeschooled kids I have met have been great, but for the most part that seems to be closely correlated with their parents attitude towards education and the qualifications they have. A pair of PhD’s homeschooling because the US system is underfunded and they move a lot (as young academics tend to do) is going to produce a very different home educational experience than a rural Christian who regards being able to read the bible (in English) as the only useful skill to be taught.

  5. Becky:
    We have home schooling in Canada.A home education is still considered an education, so it doesn’t conflict with the Convention.

    As far as I can tell, home-schooling in the US has a whole different context than home-schooling in Canada – in the US, it’s associated with a particular cultural movement that’s associated with particular religious groups and has elements of isolationism, as opposed to basically being schooling kids at home (although there’s probably plenty of that in the US too).

    I don’t actually know if this distinction will be relevant to the conversation, but I figure better to clarify it than not just in case. Also, not USian myself, just an avid consumer of documentaries, so apologies if I have misrepresented.

  6. Don’t forget my right to keep your kids from learning evolutionary theory or contemplating the possibility of life on other planets. My God is going to keep punishing America until your kids stop wanting to be astronauts. Period.

  7. Jadey:

    As far as I can tell, home-schooling in the US has a whole different context than home-schooling in Canada – in the US, it’s associated with a particular cultural movement that’s associated with particular religious groups and has elements of isolationism, as opposed to basically being schooling kids at home (although there’s probably plenty of that in the US too).

    I don’t actually know if this distinction will be relevant to the conversation, but I figure better to clarify it than not just in case. Also, not USian myself, just an avid consumer of documentaries, so apologies if I have misrepresented.

    That’s very true. BUT also I know of a few “home schooling” coops that have sprung up in underfunded school districts. I helped to get funding for one that specialized in children with disabilities. It was a really awesome group of parents and I wouldn’t want to prevent them from helping their kids.

    **updated** grammar is my friend!

  8. This treaty came up in my human rights seminar during law school. The best discussion we had was about the possible impacts this treaty (and those like it) could have on both adopted children and children of same-sex couples. Some legal theorists have speculated that the treaty’s language about the right to identity and nationality could be used to challenge anonymous sperm or egg donations or closed adoptions eventually.

    I think its an aspect of children’s rights that isn’t discussed much. A lot of the articles available out there are by people on the far-right who see the adoption or donation issues as wedges to keep children’s rights treaties from ratification. However, it is fascinating issue. Honestly, I know so little about it (having never been in a position to use either adoption or donation). I would love to hear whether anybody else has had that topic come up in regards to any children’s rights discussions they’ve ever had (cause I sure as hell don’t know the answers).

  9. I agree with Esti. I think it’s ridiculous that the US refuses to sign the treaty, but even if we did, it still leaves the interpretation of the broad directives very open. There are plenty of people who could argue that we are currently doing all of those things. While I think it’s important to sign on to the treaty, I think it’s more important as a society to determine what those things actually look like, and try to make them happen.

    It’s like conversations that happen around rape. Ask anyone, and they will tell you that they ABSOLUTELY AGREE that rape is terrible … but that thing you’re talking about isn’t rape. People also all of course agree that we should thinking of the children and looking out for their interests … but the thing you’re describing isn’t part of that.

    But the hopeful part of me reads this post and thinks that, in a twisted way, at least the US recognizes that (as a society) we’re really not taking care of our kids. If we thought that we were doing a really good job, then we’d have no problem signing on to the treaty in our current state. And knowing you have a problem is the first step, right?

  10. The problem with the spanking debate is that there are plenty of people who were spanked as kids who turned out “just fine” (whatever that means) and there are plenty of people who have spanked or are spanking their children, and their children are socially well-adjusted, not fearful of their parents or other authority figures, etc etc etc.

    The problem with corporal punishment isn’t that it’s going to screw up every child, it’s that it’s going to screw up some children, and probably isn’t necessary even for the children it doesn’t particularly harm.

  11. The problem with corporal punishment isn’t that it’s going to screw up every child, it’s that it’s going to screw up some children, and probably isn’t necessary even for the children it doesn’t particularly harm.

    You know, I think the problem with it is the same as the problem I would have with my father smacking me across the face now, at the age of 35. Would my father smacking me across the face screw me up irrevocably? No, it would not. Would it leave me permanently scarred, either physically or emotionally? I doubt it. Does that mean it’s an acceptable way for one human being to relate to or interact with another? No, it does not.

    Surely we can expect of adults who interact with children than “Don’t do anything that would, beyond a shadow of a doubt, irrevocably screw up every kid to whom it was done.”

  12. There’s also the question of where we, as a society, want to err.

    Do we want to err on the side of parents having to control themselves and maybe find another method of discipline even if a smack or a swat on the tush would almost certainly be harmless?

    Or do we want to err on the side of providing coverage for parents who hurt their children, by allowing them to camouflage themselves among parents who sometimes use an almost certainly harmless swat?

    That’s the question I ask when welfare fraud is raised as an issue: I would rather make the mistake of letting a few people get over on the system than make the mistake of forcing people to live in poverty. I would rather make the mistake of curtailing parents’ rights than letting some parents abuse their children.

  13. The schooling thing is a bit of a concern because I can think of several examples of nomadic peoples being persecuted under this–mainly to fulfill pre-existing prejudices, but still.

    Honestly, I’m not going to lie. I believe that to leave a mark on a child as an act of discipline is a crime–a bruise, a welt, a burn. But I do believe hitting children is sometimes necessary. But I also know this is a very cultural idea. I was talking with a bunch of American friends and a Swedish immigrant about our childhoods, and we ended up discussing various times our parents had slapped/spanked us, and the Swedish kid was absolutely horrified, but none of us found it to be a problem.

    And, to a certain extent, I also believe children SHOULDN’T be able to express their beliefs, thoughts, and ideas. Because… that’s life. There are certain things I’m never allowed to say in my parents presence or in their home simply because it is theirs. And that’s been helpful at work where my actions are monitored and have consequences.

  14. What does it say about how USians value children we are unwilling to take measures to protect them from “all forms of physical or mental violence”?

    What does it say about whether we regard children as fully human that the fundamental rights granted to all people under the U.S. Constitution – the rights to privacy and to freedom of religion, assembly and expression – are explicitly denied to children?</blockquote.

    I think that a lot of parents genuinely think that if they aren't allowed to spank, or if they have to grant their child privacy and freedom of assembly, they will not be able to protect their child. So I think some of the pushback against these "rights" comes from a place of concern rather than purely from a need to control or dehumanize children. For example:

    Spanking: The most sympathetic spanking argument I've heard is the minority parent who feels they have to teach their child unequivocally and at all costs not to do certain things, for fear that their child will be shot by the police, etc. if they don’t learn — whether or not spanking works, I think this fear is a very legitimate one and could lead to parents worrying about a crackdown on spanking. I’m not saying spanking is a good idea, but some parents do it out of fear and love.

    Privacy: Especially with the internet and Facebook, etc, a lot of parents are worried that they need to monitor their kids and see who/what they are interacting with. So while I personally think that stuff like spying on your kid’s browser history is silly (can’t you try to chat with them first, at least?) a lot of parents see their ability to invade their child’s privacy as a necessary protective measure. I assume this would also go for drug testing, or searching their rooms — both violate privacy (imho) but many parents see these as reasonable actions if they fear for their child’s health or safety.

    Freedom of assembly: Again, I think many parents want the ability to limit who their kid hangs out with as a protective measure (obviously this can be misused, but still) and I’m not sure if total freedom of assembly would allow parents to forbid their child from spending time with certain people, which could make parents of kids who run with a bad crowd very concerned about how to protect their child from dangerous people or influences.

    Obviously I’m trying to imagine a really positive spin on these objections, but that’s ’cause the most negative spin is easy to imagine (children suck, take away all their rights forever!) and I’d like to at least explore more generous interpretations of parental pushback (even if they are rare or foolish.)

  15. as a society – our desire to control children is far greater than our desire to protect them or our respect for their humanity.

    I think that for children there is a lot more overlap between “control” and “protect” than there is for most adults. Obviously this depends on the age of the kid, but they start out needing their parents to entirely control them (which is entirely protective of them) and end up needing zero control (which is arguably still protective, because it allows them to become healthy adults.) So when you have such a huge variation in what amount of control is actually appropriate and protective, it’s easy for reasonable people to disagree on exactly how it should scale across different ages. Any generalization about “children” and their needs is virtually useless at that point.

  16. Thanks for going there!

    It is not only right wing Christians who home school (although there is definitely an overlap between religious home schoolers and objections to the UN Convention.) The home schoolers and un-schoolers I know don’t fit into either the religious fundamentalist or the traveling academics camp. I don’t think the practice is necessarily incompatible with a child’s right to an education at all. Only a very narrow view of what constitutes education leads to that conclusion.

    I think, in practice, our culture does not take child rights very seriously at all. We mistake the upholding of some perfect image of ‘innocent childhood’ for care towards children. The reality is that as a society we don’t give a crap about child abuse and neglect or shitty education systems. If we did, those who care for children, from child protection workers to daycare employees to teachers wouldn’t all be working for low salaries in underfunded conditions.

  17. @Bagelsan I don’t think anyone needs to be entirely controlled. The tiniest infant needs hir needs to be met. This does not entail ‘control’. An infant still has the ability to express needs and wants and emotions, to make decisions (for example, when to eat and how much). We have a culture of viewing even infants as tyrants who need to be controlled lest they control us but that is not a very useful way to think of it, in my view. Why ‘control’ rather than ‘nurturing’? There is no imperative to consider control as a necessary part of protection, in a broad sense.

  18. The thing is, of course parents are going to phrase their objections to children having these rights in the form of their desire to protect their children. Nobody is going to be all “I like to spank my kid! What’s wrong with that?!” But what goes unaddressed there is the need to protect children from their parents, from the parents who think they’re doing what’s right to protect their kids, and are harming them in the process.

    Hey, maybe the “bad crowd” consists of a bunch of gangbangers. But maybe it consists of the kid’s new friend who wears short skirts and has tattoos and doesn’t go to church. Or maybe it consists of the black kids. Or worse, maybe you’ve caught your daughter making out that girl from school who you’d thought was her best friend. Well, you’re the parent, right? You know what’s best for her. And what’s best for her is for you to forbid her from ever seeing that girl again, who obviously corrupted her, and send her to Marcus Bachmann’s therapy center immediately.

    And if the bad crowd does consist of gangbangers, what exactly are you going to do to forcibly keep your kid from hanging out with them if he doesn’t want to listen to you? Follow him around all day? Implant a computer chip in his shoulder? Call the cops on your own kid? Lock him in his room? I guess that sending him to live with relatives out of state could work, provided he doesn’t feel so strongly about it that he decides since he won’t be living with you, he’ll just hit the streets with his new friends anyway.

    Maybe your kid has sold the television to buy heroin, so you’d like him to take some drug tests when he gets back from rehab. Or maybe you found your kid smoking a joint at his younger cousin’s bar mitzvah and you are convinced that this is the first step on a road that will inevitably lead to dying in a ditch, so you declare that he has to pee in a cup every week until he moves out. So…how’re you going to make sure the pee that winds up in the cup is his? You think he doesn’t have any friends who aren’t on drugs who’d save some urine for him to use? So then…you going to go in the bathroom with your kid and watch him pee into the cop? Or strip-search him to make sure he doesn’t bring a small bottle of somebody else’s urine in with him? At what point there have you crossed the line into skeezy asshole who is demanding to see your teenage kid’s penis?

    And what if he just point-blank refuses? To what lengths is it acceptable to go to compel him?

    A lot of this seems to be about the fantasy that once kids are over the age of, oh, 8, it’s possible to control what they do without violence or cruelty. And it’s not. I know teenagers who have worked out well-rehearsed plans for getting clean urine to each other when necessary. I also know of a teenage girl whose mother is so obsessed with keeping her “safe” by knowing everything about her life that the kid is not allowed to keep a private diary. I also know that she’s worked out a way of keeping a private diary anyway, and that there is no way in hell she’s ever going to go to her mother for help about anything she writes in it. Coercion doesn’t actually make the kid trust you or agree with you or internalize your values or not think you’re batshit crazy and intrusive. What it does is drive him or her away from you, and, eventually, figure out a way around you.

    Once your kid is able to leave the house on his or her own, he or she is going to make certain decisions on his or her own. And you can do your best to help the kid make good ones, and accept that sometimes you and the kid are going to disagree on what those are. And cross your fingers and hope nothing catastrophic happens. It’s comforting to think that you can control your kid’s actions and so prevent any harm from coming to him or her. But both halves of that are a fantasy. You can’t control your kid’s actions, and even if you could, doing so would not keep your kid from all harm. Your kid is going to make his/her own decisions, and eventually, even if he/she makes ones that you approve of, he/she is going to get hurt. The best you can do is build a relationship of trust and respect, so that when–not if–your kid gets hurt, he/she feels like he/she can come to you for help.

  19. An infant still has the ability to express needs and wants and emotions, to make decisions (for example, when to eat and how much).

    Absolutely. As soon as an infant is able to turn his or her head, that infant tries to control its social interactions, turning to make eye contact with the people she wants to interact with, and, when feeling overstimulated, turning away. I always think that one of the more obnoxious things a well-meaning adult does to an infant is to continue to put her or himself in the infant’s face when the infant is repeatedly turning her head away. That baby doesn’t want to look at you! That baby needs to look away and take a moment to relax! Leave that baby alone! She’ll look at you again when she’s ready to!

  20. We have a culture of viewing even infants as tyrants who need to be controlled lest they control us but that is not a very useful way to think of it, in my view.

    I guess I wasn’t thinking of “control” like bossing the infant around, so much as that you are literally supporting its head and feeding it and keeping it warm and wiping it — every bodily function pretty much needs your input to some extent, and the infant isn’t even in control of its limbs or heat regulation, etc. (I have in mind a newborn, ’cause that’s the size of baby I’ve seen most recently. :p) So I suppose I need a nicer way of saying “control” — I mean “control” like how a cat has to poop for her kittens and move them everywhere herself, not like how someone might try to discipline a crying 1-week-old by ignoring it or whatever.

  21. Like, before being born the fetus has it’s blood supply controlled, and shortly after birth many newborns need their breathing regulated, etc. Obviously control of these basic functions is relinquished very quickly as the baby starts handling them itself, but that’s the level of “entire control” I meant as a starting point. Similarly, most parents don’t have “zero” control as soon as their kid hits 18 years, but I’m rounding heavily. :p

  22. I also believe children SHOULDN’T be able to express their beliefs, thoughts, and ideas. Because… that’s life. There are certain things I’m never allowed to say in my parents presence or in their home simply because it is theirs. And that’s been helpful at work where my actions are monitored and have consequences.

    So…we should abrogate kids’ rights so they get used to submitting to people who have power over them? Sure. Wouldn’t want them to get the idea that people in power should be defied.

    There’s a difference between parents and bosses. Parents are supposed to have their kid’s best interests at heart. Bosses have the bottom line at heart. Why would a parent want to have anything in common with a boss? Personally, I’d love to raise a generation of kids who are so used to having their rights respected at home that they put up a significant fight when those rights are infringed upon at work. Submission to authority may sometimes be a necessity, but I don’t consider it a virtue and I would never want it to become a habit.

    On the subject of hitting kids:

    I’ve spent a lot of time taking care of children. A lot. I’ve had to spend a considerable amount of energy getting kids to do things they didn’t want to do. I’ve never once raised my hand to one. It’s the kind of thing that can get a babysitter/nanny in big trouble. I did once carry a weeping child to her room for a time out; in terms of physical discipline, that’s about it. It’s expected of me that I find ways to get children to do what they need to do without hitting them. If I couldn’t, I would be a lousy caretaker. Why do we expect less of parents?

    I, on the other hand, was hit as a child. I was hit, I was shaken, I was smacked across the face, I was spanked, I was thrown around by my hair always because I was mouthing off. And I never once stopped mouthing off. Not once. Not immediately following being hit. Not the next day. Not the next week. I never once decided not to say something smart-ass so that I wouldn’t get it. In fact, if I could tell that saying what I was about to say was going to get me hit, I would definitely say it, just to prove that I wasn’t afraid of my parents, that they couldn’t control me or make me do something I didn’t want to do. And I never once concluded, after being hit, that I had done something wrong, either. What I concluded–and I remember this very clearly, I remember thinking it in exactly these words, when I was very young–was “They’re hitting me because they’re bigger than me. But someday I’ll be bigger, and they’ll be old, and then I’ll be stronger.”

    And hey, I wasn’t the victim of horrible physical abuse. I doubt I was hit any more often or violently than most other kids of my generation. My parents didn’t need to be thrown in jail or lose custody. But it would have been nice if at some point, somebody had said to my father “This thing that you sometimes do when you lose your temper? It’s not acceptable in this community. So you need to get your shit together and take some anger management classes, or just leave the house and walk around the block when you feel like that. Because you’re not hitting her because she’s doing something wrong. You’re hitting her because you’re bigger than her and you can.”

  23. @Bagelsan I figured that’s what you meant, and perhaps it’s just semantics really. But I do think we have too much of an investment in ‘control’ when it comes to children and that’s what Kristen’s post here highlights. ‘Parental control’ is a hard thing for some to even contemplate giving up. I guess to me, ‘support’ or ‘nurture’ are not only nicer words. There are concepts which allow for the personhood of children in a way that ‘control’ doesn’t.

  24. Even if you are totally against spanking there are progressive reasons to ask questions about criminalizing it:

    1. What will you do with the adults who do it? Prison? Re-education and forcible separation from their children?

    2. What will you do with the many, many children it happens to? There’s no way to absorb them all into the current (deeply problematic, racist, classist, frequently abusive and violent) foster care system.

    3. What about the fact that within the USA, spanking is more common among some marginalized groups (racial, regional, class)? How to address this without continuing the legacy of patronizing and paternalistic control over said marginalized groups?

    1. @Anonoregonian

      To be clear: Neither the UN Convention or I think spanking should be per se criminalized for that exact reason.

  25. Meh.

    Regardless of how I feel about the Convention itself, I think the argument that the U.S. somehow values children differently based on their failure to ratify is spurious.

    Do we really think the U.N. member states Iran, China, Saudi, Afganistan, Brazil, and THE CONGO* have any intention of paying more than lip service to this treaty?

    Yeah. That’s what I thought.

    * Except for the Congo, I picked these at random off a list of member states with bad human rights records.

  26. @Chava, I didn’t make a comparative argument. I made an argument based on *why* we refuse to sign on. Fundamentally different.

  27. Are these meant to be rights for 17 year olds? Because if so, that makes some sense. But it says “children” and I guess I just don’t understand how some of these rights would be applied to a 4 or 5 year old. Protection from violence and right to an education, sure, but some of the others are confusing if you imagine a small child.

    Right of free association? So a 5 year old has an absolute right to… what? Choose who they hang out with? Choose what school they go to or even whether or not they go to school? Insist on hanging out with the creepy 10 year old down the street who has them playing dangerous games? Right to privacy – how does that apply to a toddler or a small child? If your 6 year old comes home with bruises but doesn’t want to show them to you and let you find out who’s beating him up at school, you’re stuck? Freedom of assembly – so small children have a right to leave the house and go meet up together for playdates in the park whether their parents want to take them there right then or not? These just don’t seem to make practical sense.

  28. Can someone give me a serious example of how rights of free association and assembly would apply to 5 year olds?

  29. Fair enough, although saying, “The U.N Convention on the Rights of the Child is the latest in a line of international agreements on the human rights of children and has been ratified by every member of the United Nations with the exception of Somalia and the United States,” makes an implicit comparative argument.

    While I agree that our refusal to ratify (every) UN treaty is &^%! annoying, I also believe that it has less to do with the contents of any particular Convocation than a desire to keep the U.S. out of international treaty agreements that might hamper sovereignty. Is that a wise or moral choice? That’s a different discussion.

    In any event, I would be concerned with who is going to be deciding the “best interests” of my child, and with what criteria? I’d also be worried about the mechanics of enforcing “all forms of physical and mental violence”–the potential for neighbors policing/drive-by parenting neighbors seems quite high.

  30. Also, if the right to privacy usually is often used about medical things, would this mean children would have the right to refuse vaccines because shots hurt and little kids can’t really think ahead to the future? Or refuse to go to the dentist, etc? There are lots of cases where its in the best interest of children and society if parents do force children to endure some of these unpleasant and painful experiences. And children’s minds are necessarily developed enough to come to that realization themselves.

    Some of these rules seem like there’s no practical way in which they make sense, which makes me think this whole treaty is pointless and just some sort of publicity stunt. Unless I am missing something big.

  31. Okay, I kind of wish we wouldn’t have this same BUT INFANTS CAN’T THINK argument everytime, but I guess its inevitable. Let’s try a different explanation and see if that clarifies.

    In law we traditionally think of parental rights as being derived from status meaning that parents have all of the power and authority by virtue of the parent-child relationship. Historically, lots of relationships have been derived from status. Monarch/subject. Lord/peasant. Guard/Prisoner. Even in some early cases Employer/Employee.

    But slowly with the development of fiduciary law we’re moving away from “status” understandings of relationships between people to “fiduciary” relationships between people. In a fiduciary relationship, one person’s power is *delegated* to another to be used for the benefit of that person. Fiduciaries then have (to greatly oversimplify) varying responsibilities with respect to how they exercise that power.

    In essense, two significant shifts occur with respect to children: (1) children are empowered (with delegation) and (2) parents have an obligation to their children rather have rights over them.

    I’m not arguing for and I don’t think anyone has ever argued for infants having the right to vote or refuse to go to the dentist. Instead what I’m advocating and what I believe is embodied in the Convention is a shift from parental authority to parental obligation.

  32. I’m not arguing for and I don’t think anyone has ever argued for infants having the right to vote or refuse to go to the dentist.

    I’m sure no one is arguing this. But can you please clarify exactly how privacy, freedom of association, and freedom of assembly are meant to apply to small children? I can’t think of examples that aren’t as ridiculous as the dentist example. (Of course when you start talking about teenagers these things start making more sense.)

    Instead what I’m advocating and what I believe is embodied in the Convention is a shift from parental authority to parental obligation.

    That’s nice, but I don’t see where it says that. And even if it does, I also don’t see how that could be enforced, since most parents would argue that they are obligated to use their authority for what they think is the best interest of their child, whether or not you agree. So again, these seem like pointless publicity stunt rules that could never be clearly interpreted or enforced.

    Even the ones that sound good, like protecting all children from violence – you’ve already pointed out that it isn’t practical to outlaw spanking, so that’s just going to get ignored. We already have laws about child abuse, child labor, education, etc. I’m not necessarily against this treaty but I don’t see what good it would do either. (At least in the US. If there are countries that currently don’t provide education for all children, for example, then maybe this would force them to.)

  33. Also, I’d be curious to see an explanation of why some of my comments await moderation and others don’t. I don’t see any obvious reason that would flag an automated system (like using foul language). Are moderators flagging and unflagging my name when I disagree or agree with them? Its your blog, so you’re allowed to block comments if you want, but it seems oddly inconsistent.

  34. Here’s a question – would this treaty force parents to take their children to a real doctor instead of faith healing and avoiding vaccines?

    Seriously, what practical changes would these kinds of rules have?

    I also think there was an interesting point made above about the right to identity one making closed adoptions illegal. How do we feel about that?

    I think I’m in general against passing extra laws (or rules or treaties or whatever) that aren’t needed and may have unintended consequences. And I just don’t see what benefit this one would have.

  35. Things get caught in the spam filter. Its kind of random. I clear it when I can, but I also like to do things like sleep and pee and go to meetings.

  36. Something else to consider. Countries that are signed up to the CRC have to give regular reports to the UN about what they are doing for children and their rights and the UN will also give a report on that country.

    The CRC isn’t a magic wand, but it’s a really good starting place for the notion of children as people. The UK is far from perfect, but we do now have Children’s Comissioners, who are assigned to oversee children’s issues at a parliamentary level. There is a lot more out there about child participation in service provision and although, the current government seems to be thumbing their nose at it, ‘Every Child Matters, was a really good piece of legislation.

    No one is saying that child rights is straightforward. The other issue tends to be about parental rights versus parental responsibilities and if a child can have rights without having responsibilities (yes would be my simple answer, but people still argue otherwise).

    Often when talking about child rights, people say that your just want to treat children as mini adults, the other key factor in CRC is that it gives children clear rights relating to their stage of development, e.g the right to play, because of how important play is to a child.

    A really good starting point for information is the Child Rights Information Network here: http://www.crin.org/resources/treaties/CRC.asp

  37. @Complicated,

    Parents and gov’ts should not be able to tell a five year old that they can’t sit next to X because X is black, or poor, or disabled. So yes, even at 5 there should be freedom of assembly.

    At five I was able to articulate things, I had opinions. For example, I thought it was wrong that my “boyfriend” was treated differently by our teachers because he was latino. Parents and gov’t should not be able to prevent children from articulating those opinions.

    At an even younger age, my goddaughter articulated that while she wanted me to come into public bathrooms with her, she wanted me to stand outside the stall. She had a right to privacy.

    Yes, this convention would probably require parents to take their children for medical care and that is one reason I favor it.

    I don’t know whether you work with the judicial system but there are some fucked up levels of deference attached to parent/child as status relationships that cause real and systematic harm. I think this treaty pretty clearly changes that level of deference by requiring that all parents act in the best interests of their children.

    1. @Anna, sure. If I have some time tonight, I’ll throw something together. Although I was going to do a kick ass post on gratitude. 🙂

  38. Safiya Outlines:
    The other issue tends to be about parental rights versus parental responsibilities and if a child can have rights without having responsibilities (yes would be my simple answer, but people still argue otherwise).

    I would agree with this based on (and please don’t jump on me for comparing children to animals) animal rights. Many people would agree that animals have rights, such as a right not to be treated cruelly, but we don’t assume them to have responsibilities in exchange for those rights.

    (that’s where I end the children/animal comparison)

  39. I think Chava raises an important point. This is largely about American exceptionalism, not how we value our children. We don’t want to be bound by ANY of these treaties, no matter how reasonable they sound. Many (most?) countries that are signatories don’t intend to do anything to actually enforce those rights. Any concerns about this treaty taking away rights from parents are ridiculous precisely because the treaties are never enforced.

    1. @Chingona,

      If that’s the case why are the objections to the Convention center around arguments that say essentially that children do not have the rights guaranteed by our constitution. I’ll agree that US exceptionalism is driving the Heritage Foundation’s objections. But that still doesn’t explain the other objections raised above.

  40. Kristen, what do you think of NCCPR? I’m all for child protection, but was really troubled by Dorothy Roberts’ book about the racist/classist ways the child welfare system works. In theory it seems like attentiveness to the rights of children could improve this because children’s voices would have more weight, but I guess the key question is who decides what is in the best interests of the child.

    1. @Jennifer, I think NCCPR is dead wrong on some things. I think their calls for openness and transparency will result in a more difficult experience for abused children and for family preservation. I think they’re correct in others GALs should advocate for their kids and all parties should be represented by counsel. I think they’re underlying premise that the true injustice in the system is perpetrated against innocent parents is ludicrious.

  41. Kristen J: If that’s the case why are the objections to the Convention center around arguments that say essentially that children do not have the rights guaranteed by our constitution.

    Well, with every one of these – about women, about children, about war crimes, about handguns – the objections raised on the right reflect their actual values, values I almost always don’t share. You’re right that they think parents own their children.

    But that we don’t sign the treaty has as much to do with American exceptionalism/worries about UN/one-world-government/black helicopters crap as it does with some people’s views on children.

    I know you don’t want a comparative argument, but we already have more national/local child protection measures than a lot of countries that are signatories. Culturally, it’s already less acceptable here to hit your kid than it is in many countries that are signatories. Culturally, a child’s right to play is nearly universally accepted. A child’s right to an education is not in doubt here. And so on.

    You’re right that the treaty represents a shift in thinking about children (vis a vis society and vis a vis their parents), but I don’t think signing or not signing the treaty is the full measure of where a society is on that spectrum.

  42. Jennifer: I guess the key question is who decides what is in the best interests of the child.

    Bang on. We can and should encourage parents, society, and government to have more respect for the rights of children and to view parental/government “control” as something we do on behalf of children rather than something we do to children. But the underlying issue remains: someone will be making a lot of decisions on behalf of every one of us until we reach an age when we can do so ourselves, and often there will be disagreements about who should do so when the opinions of what the child’s “best interests” are differ.

    For example: an eight year old child breaks their arm quite badly and the doctor says that while she won’t die if they don’t fix it, surgery is the only way to make sure she regains full range of motion in that arm and isn’t stuck with a lifetime of pain. The child is scared of the surgery and doesn’t want to have it. The parents are Jehovah’s Witnesses, and don’t want to consent to any treatment that might require blood transfusions. The doctors say that the operation is completely safe and is the standard of care for the situation; based on that, the state says that this operation is part of the minimum level of healthcare that all children deserve to receive, regardless of the objections raised by the child or her parents.

    How do we figure out whose vision of the best interests of that child controls? An eight year old isn’t an infant, but they probably don’t fully grasp the long-term consequences of refusing a surgery and they’re probably less able to understand that the surgery is safe even if it sounds scary. The parents are generally assumed to be the best placed to make decisions on behalf of their child, because they are the ones who know them best and who care about them most, but sometimes parents will make decisions that society at large thinks are abusive or neglectful or otherwise wrong (and obviously interrogating when and why we think that is a whole other can of worms — religious objections to medical treatment being a particularly frought area). And the state is thus in the business of creating minimum standards for parental choices, things that we think all children must have regardless of their views or those of their parents, but it’s an awfully tough line to draw — I wouldn’t want the state telling parents they can’t consent to an abortion for their 14 year old daughter just because the voters of whatever state decided that wasn’t in the child’s “best interests”, but I also don’t want parents being able to block their children from learning about evolution or taking insulin.

  43. you’ve already pointed out that it isn’t practical to outlaw spanking, so that’s just going to get ignored.

    There are ways to deal with problematic or destructive actions other than criminalizing them. It’s US ideology that insists that criminalizing every single unwanted behavior is the only, one-size-fits-all solution.

  44. What does it say about how USians value children we are unwilling to take measures to protect them from “all forms of physical or mental violence”?

    It all comes down to what those “measures” are. If it means that people who beat up their kids go to jail, sure. Anybody who beats up anybody should probably go to jail.

    But when you let “for the children” thinking run wild the legislative process — as it currently does in the U.S., I’d argue — you end up with laws that, for example, sends people to prison for living within 1000 feet of a school because, when they were 17, they had sex with their 15-year-old girlfriend and landed on the sex offenders list for life. For a less depressing read, try these 6 things schools are doing to protect students (including making them carry electronic tracking devices and banning all photography).

    People who want to bring a real, live police state to the U.S. (assuming we don’t already have one), and other countries, absolutely love it when “protecting the children” enters the public consciousness, because it allows them to criminalize an ever-wider segment of society.

  45. Many of these tactics are supposed to create group shame and guilt to achieve their ends. I remember when I was in school how much I hated it when one person screwed up and everyone was punished as a result.

    Though it takes longer, focusing on individual offenders rather than assuming the collective will police itself is a better strategy. The collective either resists making the changes, often resents being held accountable, and then many times resorts to acts of violence as a form of retribution. The kid who steps out of line is liable to get beat up. Any effort made towards understanding why he acted out in the first place is not made.

  46. I can’t see how they would work. Yeah, free association sounds good, but then society would end up with roving gangs and Lord of the Flies situations on every block. I was a pretty well-behaved kid, the sort who actually read and who learned much more by reading than I ever learned in school. But most kids don’t care about school, don’t care about anything but pleasing the crowd they run with. They need a significant incentive to behave, and shaking a finger at them ain’t gonna do a thing.
    And considering the countries that signed on, I can’t think of this treaty as anything but window dressing. Yemen signed on- but girls still get married there before they reach puberty. South Korea signed on- but they allow schools to use corporal punishment, as far as I know. The Congo doesn’t even have a government. Afghanistan- yeah, like they’re really going to allow girl’s schools to operate without significant interference. Italy? Seventeen-year-old girls are considered fair game there. South Africa? Their police couldn’t find their collective backsides without a map and a searchlight. As for the US- that’s already been discussed, and I just can’t see it happening. Education is not a priority here, and evangelicals have a lot of power, and to them kids are just God’s little soldiers.

  47. A child’s right to an education is not in doubt here.

    In the US I’ve been paying attention to, public education funding is slashed at the slightest opportunity. Schools have had to cut “frivolities” like art, music, libraries, and foreign languages. Class sizes are going up. My best friend’s little sister’s high school was so overcrowded that it was on split shift and classes were being held in stairwells. Children’s right to education is emphatically not respected here.

    People who want to bring a real, live police state to the U.S. (assuming we don’t already have one), and other countries, absolutely love it when “protecting the children” enters the public consciousness, because it allows them to criminalize an ever-wider segment of society.

    Sure, and if the argument here was about “protecting” children only, that would answer it. But the argument is also about respecting children as human beings with certain rights. Obviously, “including making them carry electronic tracking devices and banning all photography” has nothing to do with respecting kids as autonomous beings with rights.

    I wouldn’t want the state telling parents they can’t consent to an abortion for their 14 year old daughter

    I would, because I don’t think parents have any right to consent or not to their teen daughter’s abortion, or even be notified of her decision. They don’t have to “consent” for her to receive prenatal care, after all.

    My understanding, by the way, is that one of the ongoing reasons the US refuses to sign this treaty is because it forbids the use of child soldiers, and the US wants to continue to allow kids to enlist at 16.

  48. Re: Best Interests Standards

    The thing is…we can negotiate this. This isn’t a new concept in US law. We can figure out what works and tinker with it and adjust to make sure we’re acheiving the right balance of obligations and liberty.

    But we can’t have that conversation because people balk at anyone other than parents having a say in how children are treated.

    With some people I think its a belief that they own their kids. With others I think its the belief that *parents know best* should be an unassailable default rule.

    I disagree with both.

  49. But most kids don’t care about school, don’t care about anything but pleasing the crowd they run with. They need a significant incentive to behave, and shaking a finger at them ain’t gonna do a thing.

    I just don’t agree with this at all. It is not at all my experience, in dealing with children, that they don’t care about anything but pleasing their friends or that they need a significant incentive to behave–no more than adults, in any case.

  50. @KristenJ –

    I am just wondering if any major objections have come from the left. (You mention that many major objections have come from the right.) I read the treaty and have been googling, but I thought that your lawyerly mind (or anyone else’s, of course!) may have heard about something I haven’t?

    Much thanks! I did a thesis on UN CEDAW and oppositions to it, but not on the rights of the child, and it’s a really interesting topic!

  51. Kristen J: But we can’t have that conversation because people balk at anyone other than parents having a say in how children are treated.

    Except that we already are having this conversation and will continue to have it. It’s not like kids still work in factories and parents aren’t put on trial for hurting their kids or the state never intervenes to require medical treatment. We’re not where we should be, but neither is it the case that nothing moves forward unless and until we sign the convention.

    1. @Chingona,

      This isn’t about signing the Convention, its about *why* we wouldn’t sign the convention. And people here in this comment thread are arguing that the best interest standard is not workable.

      So yeah, I think we’re still trying to get over that threshhold of should society protect minimum rights for children versus complete dominion by parents.

  52. Kristen J: Re: Best Interests StandardsThe thing is…we can negotiate this. This isn’t a new concept in US law. We can figure out what works and tinker with it and adjust to make sure we’re acheiving the right balance of obligations and liberty.But we can’t have that conversation because people balk at anyone other than parents having a say in how children are treated.

    I’m just not sure that’s true. There are a lot of disagreements about these issues, but I think most of them are about where the lines get drawn, not about whether there should be lines. The right looooooves government restrictions on parental rights when that means age limits on abortions and contraceptives, or restricting sexual or violent media, or forbidding children from wearing the hijab to school, or keeping the drinking age really high. And the left loves government restrictions on parental rights when that means all children have to learn about non-Christian-approved topics in school, or teenage girls being able to access abortion and contraceptives without parental consent, or mandatory healthcare coverage for children.

    I mean, I agree that we can and should keep tinkering with where the lines are drawn, and that that exercise would be productive and would lead to better outcomes for children. I just really don’t think the hurdle between here and there is that there’s a big segment of the population that thinks the state shouldn’t interfere with parental rights. It’s that virtually all of the population thinks that the state should only interfere with the parental rights it doesn’t like.

  53. EG: Children’s right to education is emphatically not respected here.

    There’s a big difference between not funding education at a level or in a way that I would prefer and kids getting pulled from school at young ages to start working to support their families, girls not being sent at all because it’s a waste to educate them, etc. It’s essentially illegal in the United States to not educate your child.

  54. I think another reason we are terrified of this is that it means improving services to all families in general. Most research has found that mom’s going to work when their child is five weeks old is not in the interest of children. The reality is that staying home with children if you’re a single mom or even if you’re in a two parent home is often not possible.

    And even if it is “possible” it means a reduction in pay to the point that other areas of the child’s life will be compromised to the degree of not havining adequate requation or educational activities, not being able to afford quality medical care, not being able to afford quality schools. Basically, it means needing to say our schools should all be good schools, our children should all have quality medical care, families in general should all have access to health promoting and enriching activites like mommy/kid yoga, sports, swimming, arts and activities….

    Further more there are a lot of emotional reasons that women want to get started working early, because many women find it exhausting and difficult to stay at home with kids. I think we should have more programs to help stay at home mom’s with the difficulties of being stay at home moms. And yes it’s difficult, just because you love your kids to pieces, it doesn’t mean you automatically feel endessly rewarded by the difficulties of setting aside worke, feeling like you’re falling behind on your career, or handling the amount of stress involved in being a nurturer and providor all day long.

    I’m NOT interested in forcing women to stay home from work if they feel like it’s in their families interest for them to work. I do think that sometimes fathers are better at staying at home with kids and I think that the right to stay home with a young child should be something that can transfer to a father. (I.e. if you are a parent and your wife gave birth but you are the non-birthing parent man, woman, transgendered etc— you should be able to take her maternity leave in her place if she feels like she is psychologically more suited to working or that her job skills are more profitable to the family than the other parent or whatever.)

    The research is of course multidimensional– if the mother is not suited to managing househole chores and also being in an emotionally secure place and doing enriching activities and and and etc— then day care outcomes can in fact IMPROVE the childs health. So I think we both need to be less scared of research on the effect of childcare, time of starting group care, and the effects on the family— and less judgemental about womens decisions about what to do with the knowledge that research can give us.

    But saying “We must do what is right for children” is scary because of that very fact, who will decide “what is right” for children concerning such complex multivariable matters?
    I think we get scared of research about breast feeding, maternal leave, balancing work and home because if research finds that x behavior is associated with better outcomes for kids, does that mean we need to do x? And is it that x is ALWAYS the better options, what about the fact that families all have a myriad of complex variables and doing x might DECREASE the well being of certain families?

    This is extremely pertainant when we start saying that parenting behaviors should be regulated to ensure that all children have a standard of care. I don’t think it’s as scary as we think it is— or rather if we addressed the problems that are very real potential problems, I don’t think they are a necessary result of doing research on child outcomes and trying to imrpove services to families to empower them to BE ABLE to provide their children with such environments.

    I guess what I mean is mandating ridiculous standards for families that are beyond the behavioral/emotional/mental/financial capacity of many families to follow through with, without SUPPORTING families with better tools and support to give their children healthy environments— can become a form of tyranny in and of itself. It’s a realistic fear. But I think we’ve got parallel movements: one that’s gone the opposite direction and is a bit terrified of facing that our parenting behaviors affect our kids. And one that is a bit tyranical in wanting parents to conform to standards that are literally impossible— and for certain families harmful– to conform to.

    BAsically– we need to have more family centered policies and supports. We need better everything. So we don’t want to sign some treaty that compells us to address that we are terrified of figuring out how to support families in research based ways without becoming tyrannical— because the reality is that imroving the well being of children often DOES require parents to make some changes that are hard to make. How to we inform parents about how their behaviors affect kids without shaming people, becoming bullies, or even forcing people to comply with rigid requirements that actually HARM their families? It’s tricky… and uh… complicated.

  55. rox: I do think that sometimes fathers are better at staying at home with kids and I think that the right to stay home with a young child should be something that can transfer to a father. (I.e. if you are a parent and your wife gave birth but you are the non-birthing parent man, woman, transgendered etc— you should be able to take her maternity leave in her place if she feels like she is psychologically more suited to working or that her job skills are more profitable to the family than the other parent or whatever.)

    I’m not picking on you, because I see this type of comment all over the place … BUT … men ALREADY have the right to leave for a new baby/child, whether by birth or adoption. (I’m not sure how non-birthing partners of the same sex are treated, and I’m sure DOMA factors into it.) It doesn’t even have to be swapped with the birthing mother’s leave. It can run concurrent or be in addition to. Under FMLA, the right to get up to 12 weeks without losing your job is a right of the individual parent. It’s not 12 weeks per child total.

    The problem is that it is unpaid*, just like maternity leave is for the vast majority of women,and most families can barely afford the mother to be without her salary for the full length of the leave, much less both parents. If your job offers short-term disability insurance, then it applies to postpartum women.

    *Some jobs offer paid leave to men and women, but the law doesn’t require that any leave be paid.

    What we need is more paid leave (starting with any paid leave at all would be a good start) so people can actually afford to be with their kids. Again, not picking on you. I just feel like every time the topic comes up, someone says “Men should be able to take leave too!” and they already can.

  56. There’s a big difference between not funding education at a level or in a way that I would prefer and kids getting pulled from school at young ages to start working to support their families, girls not being sent at all because it’s a waste to educate them, etc.

    Rhetorically? Sure, there’s a difference. Practically? I’m not convinced there is. The end result is that kids from poor families do not get a decent enough education to allow them a shot at a better life or to develop their capacity to learn. The end result is a hardening of class boundaries and a group of people that the state has ensured have little choice but to take extremely low-paying jobs with few, if any, benefits, and to scramble for them. The end result is that kids themselves drop out because they don’t see the point of being ground through a system that provides them with nothing.

    If you make abortion legal and then completely defund any and all organizations that would make it possible for non-rich women to get abortions, then you have de facto removed those women’s right to abortion by preventing them from exercising it. If you mandate public education and then let the public school system fall into ruin, albeit slowly, you have de facto removed non-rich children’s right to an education by preventing them from exercising it.

  57. Adding to what rox (@61) said:

    What if the state decides that the best interests of the child are for the newborn to be cared for by a (biological??) parent for one year? And what if said state provides a very generously paid maternity and/or paternity leave for this one year, so it wouldn’t be restricted to just the person who gave birth?

    And what if the state mandates that the leave *must be taken*? That a parent *must not be working* and must be taking this parental leave, because it is in the best interests of the child as defined by the state?

    Hypothetical example: A pregnant woman who already has children gives birth. The baby’s father [sorry this is a cissentric example, but I’m trying to keep it simple 🙁 ] has since become dead, or deployed, or in prison, or left and can’t be found, or maybe she used a sperm donor, or something else that makes it so he could not be the person to stay home with the newborn.

    But someone must stay home with the newborn for one year. This is generously subsidized by the state, but quite frankly, the woman who gave birth is a high-powered lawyer, or doctor, or the Governor of New York, or whatever – something where she makes much more money than the parental leave subsidy (for the leave she is mandated to take). Say she and her children would be better off, as an aggregate, with her working and her higher income, because (insert any reason, from college tuition to enrichment programs to special needs).

    What then is in the best interests of the child? How can parents balance the often- competing best interests of the child?

    1. Re: Parent’s working

      Why would we assume that a best interests of the child standard means that with any conflict between the rights of children and the rights of adults, the rights of children get trumps?

      I mean sure the bullshit that gets foisted on parents now shames the crap out of them for failure to parent via the socially approved mandate.

      But why do we assume that we’d enshire that load of shit into law?

      It sounds like the slippery slope argument is being invoked. Kids can’t have rights because…if kids rights predominate then parents have no rights. Kid’s having rights doesn’t mean their rights trump anyone else’s.

  58. I agree with the people who say this sounds like mere window dressing. And I am extremely frustrated that realism to the effect of “children are immature and need their parents to make choices for them” is being uniformly grouped into the “right wing” label.

  59. EG: Rhetorically? Sure, there’s a difference. Practically? I’m not convinced there is.

    I’m basing my comments on things I have seen in poor countries, things that have happened in families I know. So practically, yes, there is a difference.

  60. Under FMLA, the right to get up to 12 weeks without losing your job is a right of the individual parent.

    Well, somebody should tell my employer, because the most I could get would be six weeks unpaid leave–and as soon as I get dropped from payroll, I lose my benefits, including health insurance, which is a nice thing for a new mother and her baby to have. Functionally, I don’t have the right to leave, because a right means nothing if you’re unable to exercise it.

    How can parents balance the often- competing best interests of the child?

    They do it all the time. Every single day. The real question is, at what point do we place the line at which the parents do not get final say? At this point, in the US, I think the power is tilted far too far into the hands of parents.

    As for the example of state-mandated generously compensated year-long family leave…sure. And what if the state makes it compulsory for all parents to keep and house at least one pony per child, supported of course by state compensation? The two things are about equally likely here in the US.

  61. Libby Anne: Here’s what it comes down to: children are people. Yep, I went there.

    Yes!

    I was spanked, I was threatened with removal of privacy, I was forbidden spending time with friends as punishments. But the worst of all things on that list was #2 – I was forbidden to read books about certain “ungodly” topics. I couldn’t learn about world religions, world mythology, even nonstandard historical accounts. The explanation was that if I were to open my mind to other ways of thinking, I might lose my faith, and they couldn’t let me do that. I had an insatiable curiosity for other peoples and places and things, so I started reading more about science. Ironically, that’s what actually lead me to losing faith in the Christian god more than any mythology I could have possibly read. I still resent my parents for their actions, but now I have a chance to speak out against it.

  62. EG: Well, somebody should tell my employer, because the most I could get would be six weeks unpaid leave–and as soon as I get dropped from payroll, I lose my benefits, including health insurance, which is a nice thing for a new mother and her baby to have.

    If you work for a small company, FMLA might not apply to them. If you’ve worked there less than a year, FMLA might not apply to you. (That was the case for me when I had my first.)

    But if you work for a company that’s bound by FMLA, then yes, someone should tell them because they are breaking the law. Perhaps that someone should be you.

    I found these folks (http://www.9to5.org/) pretty helpful about clarifying my rights when I fell into a gray area under the law. I emailed them, and they wrote me back personally.

  63. I teach at a public university. But I’m sure there’s some reason why FMLA isn’t applying to them. And since it doesn’t really matter to me, as I couldn’t go six weeks without a paycheck, let alone twelve, it’ll have to be someone else who pursues the matter–but thank you very much for the website! I will keep it bookmarked, because you never know when you’ll need some help.

  64. Higher ed is notoriously bad on this stuff, though I don’t know the ins and outs of how they get away with it. My sympathies.

  65. So practically, yes, there is a difference.

    I’m speaking about people and families I’ve known, too, as well as the effects of piss-poor education documented by people like Jonathan Kozol. But even if you’re right that there’s a meaningful difference, I’m really not sure what the argument you’re making comes down to; it sounds an awful lot like “people other places have it a lot worse, so who cares about these problems.”

    Well, OK. I mean, in some countries, sex between a same-sex couple is a crime. That is no longer the case in the US. That doesn’t mean that DOMA isn’t an infringement on the rights of same-sex couples. Somebody else might have two broken legs and appendicitis, in which case they are indeed worse off than I would be if I only had one broken leg and an ear infection. But that doesn’t mean that I don’t need medical attention.

    If kids are not able to get a decent education, that is an infringement on their right to an education, no matter the nature of the obstacles placed in their way.

  66. Count me in as a supporter.

    Growing up, I had abusive and controlling parents who were in denial about their behavior and considered themselves strict, but loving, disciplinarians. Think “spankings” that left me covered in bruises, “home schooling” when I was really pulled out of school to care for my little siblings and clean the house, and “correcting your attitude” meant punishing me for things like not smiling enough (for reals!), not telling them that I talked to a boy while out, or wearing pants. All of this was excused in their minds because parents always know what’s best, they just wanted to protect me from the world, and it’s in children best interest to be obedient.

    I didn’t fully understand that this was child abuse until college. Why? Because all of the families I met had similar attitudes towards child/parent relationships. Some of them homeschooled, most of them used spanking, but every single one of them believed that parents have a right/freedom to raise their children as they want and the children just have to deal with it. And most of these were “normal” modern families too. So, I just swallowed my frustration and dealt with what I thought was normal, if slightly strict, parental attitudes.

    The idea that children have rights, not just to food or life, but to opinions and feelings would have been revolutionary for me. I don’t know if I would have sought help or figured out it was abuse sooner, but it would have validated my frustration and sadness about being controlled all the time.

    Thanks for writing this!

  67. Parents and gov’ts should not be able to tell a five year old that they can’t sit next to X because X is black, or poor, or disabled. So yes, even at 5 there should be freedom of assembly.

    At five I was able to articulate things, I had opinions. For example, I thought it was wrong that my “boyfriend” was treated differently by our teachers because he was latino. Parents and gov’t should not be able to prevent children from articulating those opinions.

    At an even younger age, my goddaughter articulated that while she wanted me to come into public bathrooms with her, she wanted me to stand outside the stall. She had a right to privacy.

    Of course children can articulate preferences. But part of being a good parent is deciding when respecting those preferences makes sense and when it doesn’t. You listed some pretty choice examples above, but what if your child articulates that they want privacy in the bathroom before they actually know how to clean themselves properly? What if they articulate that they don’t want to sit next to Susie because she’s ugly? What if a bunch of them articulate that they don’t want to play with the kid of a difference race? What if they articulate that they don’t want to go to school, they’d rather stay home and play video games?

    It seems like cheating to choose a few examples where they articulate preferences that you approve of, and then say that that means there should be international treaties saying we respect their preferences in general.

    Also, even if you’re right about things like bathroom privacy, how do you expect an international treaty or even a national government to enforce that kind of thing? This treaty just sounds like a joke to me.

    1. @Complicated – Hey, you said you wanted any examples. I gave pretty easy ones, but they are examples of where children should have rights.

      @All, I’m out for a few hours. So I won’t be clearing the mod queue. Please be patient.

  68. I agree that there is a slippery slope between mandating parental behavior and protecting the rights of kids.

    My point is that simply because that slope exists doesn’t mean we should throw are hands up and say, “Whatever, just let parents do whatever they want unless we see bruises.”

    Parents feeding their three year old doritos and Dr. Pepper and frozen pizza every day? Parents yelling and screaming even though it’s not effective without having a clue how to respectfully guide and discipline a child? Parents not knowing how to get their stressed raging 4 year old to go to sleep at night and resorting to spanking every night just to get child to go to sleep? Parents leaving the TV on all day and night to relieve the stress of dealing with all that’s on the table for them? These are signs the parents need help. If we want to involve ourselves with these behaviors… which I think is actually a good thing– we need to understand how these issues correlate with mental health issues/poverty/parents upbrining/education levels etc.

    A professional walzing in a telling the family to function better will be about as effective as a parent yelling curse words at their child to stop coloring on the walls while watching them do it. We don’t need more removals of children from families to an already burdened foster system– we need more education, awareness and ACCESS to health and family promoting activities and services. And yes this should be a standard we commit to all children. Children should have safe and engaging playgrounds, we should make sure there are at least some amount of plants and trees in all areas of town, family centers should have a range of health promoting and enriching activities that are accessible to low income families at sliding scale fees (or free). We should develop new ways to help working families get access to healthy meals, not just by bombarding people with shame, but through NEW models of helping people cook/get access to prepared healthy meals. The access of the PARENTS to health promoting activities should fit in there too and of course everyone is terrified of this because OMG socialism.

  69. Are you saying the right thing to do is compel them, against their will, to play with the kids of a different race? Because one, I’m not sure how you could, as by definition, playing is a voluntary activity, and two, I’m not sure how that would help, as nobody wants to play with somebody who is being forced to play with them, so it just sounds like ensuring that a grim and dismal time would be had by all.

    Respecting kids’ preferences does not mean deferring to them. When I was 5, I spent all recess running away from a girl in my class who liked me and wanted to play with me, because she was fat and smelled funny. She finally started crying, and when my kindergarten teacher understood why, she took me aside and dressed me down but good. She told me, sternly, and angrily, how horrible what I was doing was, how horrible it made that other little girl feel, and that I was being selfish and mean. I don’t remember her exact words, but I remember the crushing self-horror of realizing how badly I had hurt someone and how badly I had disappointed by teacher.

    Did my teacher force me to play with the other little girl? No. Did she explain, forcefully and in terms that I could understand, exactly how horrible I was being? Yes. Did I change my behavior? Yes.

    what if your child articulates that they want privacy in the bathroom before they actually know how to clean themselves properly?

    The thing is, Kristen J used actual examples that she has actually experienced. Is this something that you’ve run into? Because I haven’t. I have taken care of…hmm…I’ve never counted, so let me see…seven or eight kids during their potty training phase, and this has never happened. I’m not saying it couldn’t, but it sounds fairly unlikely to me. I have run into babies and toddlers who did not want me to change their diapers, and obviously, in that case, their health takes precedence, because you cannot let somebody sit around in their own feces. Respecting that preference, however, does mean that I didn’t get angry, that I explained exactly why I was doing something they didn’t want me to do, and that I did not expect the kid to be all peaches and cream with me afterwards.

    how do you expect an international treaty or even a national government to enforce that kind of thing?

    It’s a statement of principles. I would start, as a government, with cleaning out my own house first, and re-evaluate whether or not my laws and policies and family court systems were genuinely operating in the best interests of the children they addressed. Somewhere along the line I would form a committee of experts on the subject of child development and health, with representatives from a variety of the communities that populated my nation-state, in order to advise me on best policies and ways of implementing them. I myself am partial to massive outreach and education campaigns, like the “Face up to wake up” campaign, which, last I heard, worked very well and cut rates of SIDS dramatically.

    Not everything has to be about the jackbooted thugs of repression kicking down the door and arresting people.

  70. Kristen, I don’t think it’s that people are arguing that the best interests of the child shouldn’t be the standard. I think it’s that we’re having a lot of disagreements over what that standard means and how you enforce it.

    For those who think the Convention is meaningless because you can’t legislate all of the same rights for children that adults have: that doesn’t mean that it isn’t valuable. Making a definitive statement that you believe in the rights of children is helpful, even if you’re still having disagreements about exactly where lines get drawn on those rights. In fact, signing a Convention like this makes it more likely that we will have those discussions about what we mean when we talk about the rights of children. And it helps to have reporting mechanisms where there’s some transparency about what countries are/are not doing for children, even if we can’t force them to change. We have international agreements on a huge number of issues — from women’s rights to the rules of war to preservation of the environment — that don’t function like domestic law but that are still important because of the message they send and the conversations they prompt. I don’t see any reason why conversations like this one couldn’t still happen even if the U.S. signed this Convention — in fact, I think they’re a lot more likely to happen. And even if you have disagreements with some of the interpretations of certain provisions, it’s obviously not the case that signing up to the Convention means that spanking becomes illegal and we have to let children run wild in gangs. It just means that the U.S. becomes part of the international discussion about what the generally accepted rights of children should be.

    1. @Esti,

      I got a 15 minute meeting repreave.

      So if that’s the issue…if we’re all good with B.I. then I forward the following (flawed) proposal for institutional changes:

      1) State provided/paid for child care through age 12
      2) Equal funding (by outcome) of education
      3) Optional, paid six months leave for parents
      4) Minimum guaranteed income support
      5) Nutritious breakfast and lunch programs
      6) Support for same family “foster” care
      7) Alternative intervention programs for parents with abusive histories
      8) Guardian ad litems for all child cases, regulation of that relationship
      9) Free legal representation for parents and guardians
      10) Free health care including counseling
      11) Free optional parenting support and educational resources.

  71. I think that really most of this wrangling ignores the important point, abusive parents won’t give a hoot about the laws. You think anti-spanking laws will stop cases like baby P?

    Abusive parents aren’t who these laws are really meant for since we already have laws against abuse and it hasn’t noticeably stopped abuse.

    The other issue is that with some kids, giving them no discipline is as abusive as beating them is. Do all parents have an obligations to choose methods of punishment that are best suited to the child rather than default to spanking? Yes. Do I think spanking can be abusive? Yes, too many parents use it as a first measure of control rather than when it’s actually needed. Do I think that restricting the actions of good parents helps kids? No, because the bad ones aren’t the ones hurt.

    My objection to the law is that it’s more meaningless legislation that abusive parents will ignore. While they were sitting around the damn table, perhaps they should have thought about the fact that provision stops with parents. The governments can put free healthcare into place, doesn’t mean children will get treatment, I didn’t because it was too much effort for my mother to take me.

    The governments can give parents benefits, children will still starve because of parents who spend the benefits on themselves instead of on food, or because it’s not enough.

    They can give free schooling, doesn’t mean kids will get sent or complete it, I didn’t. I was completely let down by the structures in place.

    Laws are meaningless without the infrastructure to protect vulnerable kids. The money they spent holding this convention could have gone into actual help not more treaties that aren’t worth the paper they are printed on.

  72. I recently read somewhere that in order to respect childrens privacy you must NOT co-sleep past the age of three, you must never walk around naked in front of kids past the age of three, your KIDS must not walk around naked or get ready for bathtime or have you in the room during bath time past three, you must leave them alone to take a bath if they are four or older….

    It seemed, quite frankly, ridiculous. Seriously? It sounds like a great way to make kids think the human body just being there is automatically sexual which is in fact not the case. Then will there be rules about what types of hugging are acceptable? You must not hug your four or over child for a period of longer than 5 seconds lest they feel love and warmth between people which COULD BE SEXUAL! I mean.. what? What about kisses? How should we regulate that?

    I get the desire to create strict rules to help parents figure out what is or isn’t appropriate, but if a parent can’t tell they are being sexually provocative with a child or not, telling them they must never co-sleep will not solve the problem.

    But I thought the advice to not have sex in the same room with your kdis was a good general rule, or make out with people in front of your kids, or behave sexually toward your kids— but that’s all sort of.. duh. I mean the whole thing could have been rewritten as “Make sure your sexy time with yourself or your partners does not include the presence of your children.”

    All the other rules seem arbitrary and missing the point. I actually WOULD like us to move toward the goals of the treaty. I think that would take a lot of hashing out what these rights for kids would actually mean and how that would be enforced. I think the left is afraid of initiatives to create better “family values” because the right has used that ideal to abuse the well being of LBGT people, people with varying religious beliefs or non-beliefs, women and men who don’t conform to stereotypical gender roles that “family values” tend to espouse, and basically a rigid sometimes abusive set of values that tends to come directly from the Christian Bible and the recent american christian values about nuclear families and ethics.

    The attachment parenting/unschooling/alternamom crowd is often somewhere more on the helicopter parenting spectrum along with the christian right but tend to have more open minded beliefs about gender equality and religion— however they can be as stifling to poor moms/nonconforming moms as the christian right movements— You must stay home from work! You must breast feed, you must cook wonderful healthy meals every day!

    But the counter to that tends to be “We should never judge what moms do and each family is different so we should respect however parents want to parent their kids! If I want to feed my child doritos and soda all day, and let my kids watch however much TV they want and spank my kids, you can’t tell me that’s not healthy for my family!”

    There has to be some place in the middle, where it can be ok to encourage family health, but to do so with initiatives that focus on access and support. Mommy mentor programs, social meal groups, low cost fresh vegetable and meat restaurants that lower income families could go to when exausted, more safe places for low income families to socialize and let their children play that promote emotional security and bonding and thinking about what healthy parenting means… I hope we work closer to that.

  73. I’d add:
    12) Typical school day hours to match typical work day hours, plus a year-round school schedule. (why does school let out at 2:30PM? fuck that noise!)

  74. AFAIK, you can’t execute children in the U.S., thanks to SCOTUS in the Simmons case. LWOP, on the other hand, is another story…

  75. Kristen J – Non USian here. Is same family fostering not the default in the US? It usually is in the UK, as although there are plusses and minuses to it, it is less disruptive for the child, preserves family bonds and the key part for the state, much cheaper then having to find find a foster or residential place for the child.

    BHuesca – Paid maternity leave is a brilliant thing for the majority of women. You cannot use the example of the super privileged to counterweigh the interests of the majority.

    No one is looking at the frankly crap and inhuman (yes, I went there too) US provision and thinking, “Wow, there’s a country that values working mothers”. In fact, I would wager that a substantial number of US women leave the workforce rather tackle the tough logistics of juggling work with a young baby.

    If we valued children and if we valued parents, we would change this idea that, in a world where we’re being asked to work until 65+, a year or two (depending on how many children you have) out of your career should spell certain doom to your hopes of progression.

    1. @Safiya,

      I’m sorry! I didn’t see your comment until now…modding on my phone is a bit challenging. Same family fostering is preferred but not financially supported. So if your sister is willing to take care of your child while you do X, courts prefer that. In most cases your sister would not receive support payments, even though if a non-family member was taking care of your child they would receive those support payments.

  76. Rox – Where did you read that? Why does the mention of children on Feministe bring enough Straw scenarios to fill a barnyard?

    Does the fact that every other country on Earth that signed the Convention not now have children roaming the streets tell you something.

  77. La Lubu: I’d rather state-funded daycare/interesting afterschool activities/supervised running around in the playground for small children for the hours between school and typical work day ending, and optional community centers that would provide safe places with interesting things to do for teens to go to, than just extending school hours, because I’d like to see kids have the opportunity to let off some steam in the company of their friends and/or pursue side interests.

    I’m also not a fan of year-round schooling, in part because then how would kids who fail a class and have to retake catch up without summer school? Would they just have to permanently out of step with their cohort? And then you’d have a mess of a situation in which a kid finishes school and graduates…except for math class, say, which she has to retake…but the local public college won’t let her register until she’s got her diploma…so her education is put on hold for a year while she retakes pre-calc or something? It just seems like a world of logistical trouble, educationally.

    But I also don’t like it for philosophical reasons that I’m having trouble articulating to myself…so I’m going to go away and think some more about how to articulate them.

  78. “Does the fact that every other country on Earth that signed the Convention not now have children roaming the streets tell you something.”

    I’m not sure I follow you? I’m not sure that I said anything about children roaming the streets? I’d just like to see more health promoting family services and policies that are empowering vs shaming and controlling. I’d like to see more enriching and educational and creative activities accessible to poor children. I’d like to see more emotional sharing and family bond and parent/child health activities designed out of helping the parents enjoy bonding with their children rather than pathologizing the areas they are struggling. The line between encouraging and forcing good behavior from parents is tricky. It’s tough to walk, but I’m just saying I don’t think we should shy away from tackling it just because it’s challenging…

  79. Safiya Outlines:
    Kristen J – Non USian here. Is same family fostering not the default in the US? It usually is in the UK, as although there are plusses and minuses to it, it is less disruptive for the child, preserves family bonds and the key part for the state, much cheaper then having to find find a foster or residential place for the child.

    BHuesca – Paid maternity leave is a brilliant thing for the majority of women. You cannot use the example of the super privileged to counterweigh the interests of the majority.

    No one is looking at the frankly crap and inhuman (yes, I went there too) US provision and thinking, “Wow, there’s a country that values working mothers”. In fact, I would wager that a substantial number of US women leave the workforce rather tackle the tough logistics of juggling work with a young baby.

    If we valued children and if we valued parents, we would change this idea that, in a world where we’re being asked to work until 65+, a year or two (depending on how many children you have) out of your career should spell certain doom to your hopes of progression.

    re: privileged women – i used the economic example, because Rox had already put the “what if the woman just really wants to go back to work/needs to work/prefers to work before the maternity leave time expires”.

  80. I mean sure the bullshit that gets foisted on parents now shames the crap out of them for failure to parent via the socially approved mandate. But why do we assume that we’d enshire that load of shit into law?

    As a lawyer who frequents the juvenile courts of my city: because it happens every g-d day to people who cannot afford a lawyer to protect their interests and who do not get the benefit of the doubt that white professionals get in the family courts.

    The best interests of the child is already the law of the land, and we have untrained, oblivious, racist, classist judges and GALs and city attorneys passing on the acceptability of poor minority parents every day.

    I have no problem with the concept that we should value children and that parents should have their children’s best interests at heart. But I am damn concerned about who decides what the best interests of my child are, and what the standard is for when the state or judge can step in to overrule the parent’s determination of what is in the child’s best interest.

    The language of “rights” suggests that the state, in the form of the court system, must or will step in to protect those rights when violated. Not that more community resources will be available to parents. Not that something along the “Baby College” model will be made available to parents with few resources who were themselves raised with a “spare the rod and spoil the child” mindset.

    I have spent 5 years professionally involved with the court system in a relatively liberal small city that is part of a larger metropolitan area, and I would NOT in any way trust my family to that system. I have seen horrendous injustices visited upon families – parents AND their children. Because the fact is that removing children from their parents when the parents are doing pretty well (maybe not perfect, but pretty well) is harming the child and arguably violating whatever “right to association” they may have. I have not been impressed with the court system’s ability to act in the best interests of the children. And when you address community problems with laws, you tend to get…more court involvement.

    I would be interested in any information lawyers or activists have about other practical results of signing the treaty. What are the benefits? What would it affect? Could it make more resources available for public school? Could it make more resources available for community outreach/education/support services?

    1. @Emily,

      I’m a lawyer doing the same work and I have a complete opposite experience. I’m curious about the city because perhaps its regional. DC, MD, HI, NC for example seem to be very deferential to parents.

  81. The language of “rights” suggests that the state, in the form of the court system, must or will step in to protect those rights when violated.

    I don’t think that’s the case. After all, the US is a signatory to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and it violates those every single day. For instance, Article 25: “Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.”

    Interestingly, in many of that documents articles, the rights are conferred upon “everyone” with no mention being made of them being abrogated by age.

  82. EG: But even if you’re right that there’s a meaningful difference, I’m really not sure what the argument you’re making comes down to; it sounds an awful lot like “people other places have it a lot worse, so who cares about these problems.”

    Good thing I never said that!

    My point is that having a treaty that says “children have a right to an education” is not going to help improve the problems with education in the United States because our laws already recognize that children should get an education and should be in school and shouldn’t be working at a young age and should be working limited hours as teenagers.

    And I think there is a real, qualitative, practical difference between going to a poorly funded school and working 12 hours a day in a rock quarry. Not just a rhetorical difference.

    If you have lived in developing countries and still believe that the difference is only rhetorical, well, then we simply disagree.

    I also don’t think that arguing for more equity in school funding, school resources, etc., depends upon drawing a false equivalence between a poorly funded school in the U.S. and working 12 hours a day in a rock quarry. I don’t think “Everything bad in the world is equally bad and the functionally the same” is a good rhetorical or political strategy or even true.

    It’s not impossible that if we signed the convention, some parents group or public interest law firm could try to use it to challenge education funding. If that were the case and they were successful, that would probably be a good thing. But I’m very skeptical they would prevail, given current interpretations of U.S. law, localization of education politics, etc.

    1. @Chingona,

      I’d say it would be a decent bet that someone could prevail. Under US law treaties have the force of law.

  83. Kristen J: @Esti,I got a 15 minute meeting repreave.So if that’s the issue…if we’re all good with B.I. then I forward the following (flawed) proposal for institutional changes:1) State provided/paid for child care through age 122) Equal funding (by outcome) of education3) Optional, paid six months leave for parents4) Minimum guaranteed income support5) Nutritious breakfast and lunch programs6) Support for same family “foster” care7) Alternative intervention programs for parents with abusive histories8) Guardian ad litems for all child cases, regulation of that relationship9) Free legal representation for parents and guardians10) Free health care including counseling11) Free optional parenting support and educational resources.

    I like all of these as policy choices, but it’s striking to me that 9 of the 11 are involve providing free services/otherwise spending money (I didn’t count in that number the alternative intervention programs, as I suspect you were intending they replace/reduce some of the current jail terms). I think the government should spend more on child/family welfare, and I think some rights do have a positive right component — the government has to provide some basic welfare and healthcare for the right to life to be meaningful, etc. But as obvious as it is to most progressives that more government spending could create better outcomes for children, it’s equally obvious that the government isn’t going to spend more on it, at least in the short term.

    My wish list would be:
    1) A system of funding schools that is not tied to local property taxes. You don’t have to spend more on education, but you have to spend the current amount more equally
    2) Various criminal justice reforms (making it more difficult to try minors as adults; making the standards for voluntariness of confessions and knowing waiver of criminal rights higher than they currently are for children; making it easier for children who are victims of crime to receive accommodations during their testimony)
    3) More serious punishment for parents who don’t pay child support (inability to pay is already a defense, so this would only apply to those who just refuse)
    4) Mandatory, comprehensive sex ed (not just safe sex and abstinence, but also sexual orientation and sexual violence)
    5) Adoptee access to family medical history and original birth certificates
    6) Safe haven laws for those wishing to give children up for adoption
    7) Consistent government standards for medical intervention against parents’ wishes (much of this is currently done on a case-by-case basis as individual judges rule on petitions to force/stop particular medical treatments after the child is already injured or sick)
    8) Immigration laws that prevented undocumented aliens who are parents of U.S. citizens from being deported
    9) A zero-tolerance policy for school officials who are told about bullying/assaults and do not act (I don’t like zero-tolerance policies for bullying itself, because they are often applied unequally, or when applied across the board are too harsh for some incidents, but I’d like to see school officials forced to write up each incident after speaking with both children, inform both sets of parents, and then have some system in place to deal with repeated reports)

    1. I hereby amend my original proposal to include everything mention by Esti plus some combination of schooling or community involvement described by La Lubu and EG.

  84. La Lubu: I’d add:12) Typical school day hours to match typical work day hours, plus a year-round school schedule. (why does school let out at 2:30PM? fuck that noise!)

    I’m pretty sure there have been studies that show that children need to have a shorter day of school than the usual work day, because they can’t focus for as long. Not to mention the damage that would be done to extracurriculars/after school activities if kids were in school until 5:00 or 6:00. A lot of kids participate in activities their schools can’t/won’t provide but that are immensely valuable, from sports to art programs to part-time jobs. And a lot of that would either have to be cut out of their schedules, or would have to be pushed back in the evening to time they could otherwise spend with their parents. If you’re just talking about shifting school back in the day, though (from, say, a 7:15-2:30 schedule to a 9:00-5:00 schedule), I think that’s a pretty good idea (though it does have some drawbacks — more kids walking/catching busses at the time roads are busiest, less opportunity for parents to supervise kids up until school starts or to drive them there because they have a commute to get through before their day starts, etc.)

    I’m with you on having some kind of state-funded summer option for kids (like a school-age daycare program), but I wouldn’t want it to be mandatory. Summer is when a lot of families vacation together, when kids are sent to visit distant relatives, when more time-intensive extracurriculars take place (like summer camps), when older kids have a chance to earn money or volunteer or take internships, and when many kids need to either repeat classes or want a chance to get ahead in school by taking extra classes. And I know that I always appreciated having a two month break during which I didn’t have schoolwork hanging over my head and didn’t have to focus all of the time.

  85. Kristen J: @Emily,I’m a lawyer doing the same work and I have a complete opposite experience. I’m curious about the city because perhaps its regional. DC, MD, HI, NC for example seem to be very deferential to parents.

    I can’t speak for Emily, but I work for the Dept of Children’s Services here in TN and that’s the way it is here.

    1. @Emily and @Angel

      BUT I should add that most of those states are only deferential in some cases. In others, I agree racist, classist fuckwads run amuck.

      I don’t see that as a failure related to the best interests standard as much as a failure related to way racist/classist fuckwads are allowed to run amuck. Perhaps that is the difference in our perspectives.

  86. So, it seems to me that a lot of this once again–surprise surprise!–comes down to people wanting to control mothers. You can say “parents” all you want but be real, mothers are making the vast majority of decisions about childrearing, budget, cooking, childcare, etc. And we’re doing it under enormous pressure and constraints imposed by a very mother-hating misogynist society. Everyone loves to sit and whip up a nice moral panic about how we’re all doing it wrong, especially if we are working class and/or of color. But no one wants to DO anything about it except pass punitive laws oh sorry “resolutions” or offer some kind of condescending-assed “educational seminar” to teach us bootstraps, lentils, and couponing 101 with a side of “you need to use the same form of permissive parenting as upper middle class WASPs in big cities.”

    Can the damn parenting seminars. What working class families need is SECURITY. We need our jobs to pay a full-on living wage, be full-time and secure, we need reliable affordable transit options, universal healthcare THAT WORKS, food security, and the thing union agitators died for but now is disappearing LEISURE TIME. What kind of parent serves Mt Dew in front of the TV? A stressed parent. Stop acting like this is about “ignorance.” It’s class oppression pure and simple and practically everyone bleating away in this conversation is an oppressor just as much as Sarah Palin or Michelle Bachmann.

  87. EG and Esti, the school year and school day thing is where class differences come into play. Middle-class parents *hate* the year-round school calendar (which does include breaks, just not a three-month one) because of vacations, enrichment classes, etc. In my neighborhood, there are no vacations or enrichment classes. There are lengthy wait-lists to get into the magnet schools that offer things like a longer school day and afterschool activities. My school district (like a lot of urban districts) has cut way back on things like art and music. Kids who struggle with classes (like mine; she has a learning disability and is behind in math) could use the extra help that extra hours provide. The stock answer is “parents should do that”, but meanwhile, the parents are at work for 2-2 1/2 hours longer than their kids are at school.

    So, when I say “longer school day”, what I’m really thinking of is the public schools providing for everyone else what middle-class parents do for their kids on an individual basis….the extra tutoring, the enrichment classes (that have been slashed in most urban school budgets), that sort of thing. I’m not opposed to community centers doing that, but in smaller urban centers like mine, there isn’t a community center for each neighborhood….so there’s the logistics of getting there. If it’s done through the schools, there isn’t that problem.

  88. Anonoregonian: thank you. Y’know, I can’t complain about my wages and benefits (I’m unionized) but what I don’t have is security. I’ve had on-again, off-again employment for awhile (with yes, on-again, off-again insurance when my bank hours ran out)…..and un- and underemployment remains a huge problem where I live.

  89. “Everyone loves to sit and whip up a nice moral panic about how we’re all doing it wrong, especially if we are working class and/or of color. But no one wants to DO anything about it except pass punitive laws oh sorry “resolutions” or offer some kind of condescending-assed “educational seminar” to teach us bootstraps, lentils, and couponing 101 with a side of “you need to use the same form of permissive parenting as upper middle class WASPs in big cities.”

    CHEERS TO THIS.
    “Parenting education” programs that I’ve witnessed think the problem is that people don’t know what healthy behaviors toward they’re kids are. Well that DOES happen, but you know what else? People have raised kids without any education/books/intervention/parenting advice as dictated by the educated classes for THOUSANDS OF YEARS. And you know where “bad” parenting behavior tends to stem from? Stressed out parents. When you are stressed and exhausted, you are more likely to be cranky, to put on the TV instead of being “enriching”, hand over a TV dinner rather than slaving over the stove. Outside of having been severely abused as children ourselves—- mothering instincts actually tend toward naturally being nurturing, no parenting education required. The existance of maternal nurturing doesn’t exist because of parenting books. Parenting books/professionals/researchers write about what maternal nurturing looks like but it simply has always existed.

    If you study rats you find that abused/malnurished/shocked/socially defeated rats tend to be more aggressive and less nurturing to their offspring. Their offspring, even if crossfostered to other mothers tend to have more aggressive tendancies too, but the behaviors will start trending more positive when the environment was healthy. By a few generations of healthy environments, the behavior reverts back to normal.

    Fairly often, you’re not looking at bad parents, you’re looking at people in bad circumstance.

    “So, when I say “longer school day”, what I’m really thinking of is the public schools providing for everyone else what middle-class parents do for their kids on an individual basis….the extra tutoring, the enrichment classes (that have been slashed in most urban school budgets), that sort of thing. I’m not opposed to community centers doing that, but in smaller urban centers like mine, there isn’t a community center for each neighborhood….so there’s the logistics of getting there. If it’s done through the schools, there isn’t that problem.”

    I ABSOLUTELY think this should be done. Extracurricular activities and tutoring and enrichment activities should be offered as aftershchool care. Kids should be able to choose from sports/arts/scholastic enrichment– robot and computer building!! Feminist theory and womens issues for highschool girls!! Human rights issues and volunteer groups! Gardening activities and cooking!! Yoga!

    Crap I’m getting too excited. But yeah that would be on my wish list.

  90. Kristen J:
    @Anonoregonian

    Huh?Who said any of those things?

    Read the damn thread again. It’s full of sanctimonious crap about needing to ~educate~ those poor inner city parents who don’t feed or discipline their kids the way ~we~ the anointed upper classes do. They think they are being kinder and gentler but it’s all part of the same stupid shtick where anyone who isn’t white and middle class or up is slowly shamed, stigmatized, and criminalized.

  91. Please point to those comments and I’ll take them down. I’m on my phone so I’m having trouble seeing everything. You can email me at mskristenj at gmail dot com.

  92. Also, Anonoregonian, I apologize for letting the thread get out of hand. It is not okay at all for people to say shit like that.

  93. Kristen J:
    Please point to those comments and I’ll take them down.I’m on my phone so I’m having trouble seeing everything.You can email me at mskristenj at gmail dot com.

    Please do not censor these comments. This mode of thinking is mainstream, even in liberal and progressive circles, and I’d rather see it exposed and criticized than swept under the carpet. Progressives think they are helping the “less fortunate” with the “they need education” rhetoric but it’s really just another way of doing the same thing the right wing does–penalize the poor and working classes while creating a distraction to keep the status quo going for the well-off.

  94. So, when I say “longer school day”, what I’m really thinking of is the public schools providing for everyone else what middle-class parents do for their kids on an individual basis….the extra tutoring, the enrichment classes (that have been slashed in most urban school budgets), that sort of thing.

    Then we’re in agreement. I just don’t want “longer school day” to turn into “keeping kids cooped up in classrooms while they learn state capitols until they’re too exhausted or bored to keep their eyes open.”

    I also don’t think that arguing for more equity in school funding, school resources, etc., depends upon drawing a false equivalence between a poorly funded school in the U.S. and working 12 hours a day in a rock quarry. I don’t think “Everything bad in the world is equally bad and the functionally the same” is a good rhetorical or political strategy or even true.

    Well then, as you said to me, good thing I never said that! I believe what I said was that not being able to get a decent education is an infringement on a child’s right to get a decent education. Having to work 12 hours in a rock quarry is an infringement on a whole host of other rights as well. I fail to see what it has to do with noting that the US may pay lip service to children’s right to education, but it clearly does not respect it in practice. As far as signing the treaty goes…how would it hurt, in your formulation. The US not signing it is not going to help kids in rock quarry.

  95. @Anonoregonian,

    I’m okay with that. To be clear it is not fucking okay to act as if anyone is the savior of the underprivileged people who don’t know any better than to beat their kids. Just no.

    In case my suggestion for optional support/educational resources sounded as if it fit into that category. I am referring to programs or resources where if someone *wants* other parents to talk to or *wants* to learn about something (I have in mind a lactation aid group that a community center I work with held) I think those should be freely available and entirely optional.

  96. Then we’re in agreement. I just don’t want “longer school day” to turn into “keeping kids cooped up in classrooms while they learn state capitols until they’re too exhausted or bored to keep their eyes open.”

    Except “keeping kids cooped up in classrooms while they learn state capitols until they’re too exhausted or bored to keep their eyes open” is exactly what a longer school day will look like. This is my problem with high minded schemes like this, at the end of the day if you take a system that doesn’t work because society doesn’t want it to work, inject more money into it, staple on some more demands, and then give it back to the same assholes who’ve fucked it up since the year zod, all you’re going to get is more of the shit you didn’t like in the first place.

    Schools aren’t bad because they’re underfunded. Thats part of the problem in some areas, sure, but there is a larger fundamental problem at play which few of us want to talk about. The educational system we have in this country is built on ideas of discipline and conformity which directly conflict with the individual rights we claim to care about. Its run by overpaid political appointees, administered by petty bureaucrats, and then taught by teachers who are both quite often adversarial and almost universally represented by deeply problematic teacher’s unions who lobby for work rules which protect bad teachers by holding students, parents, and communities hostage through the threat of a teacher’s strike. Public schooling in America isn’t about education, its about indoctrination and warehousing. Education is a perk that some privileged folks get with the standard “teach them to do what they’re told” package, but it isn’t the central feature of any public school I’ve ever seen.

    Thats one of the big reasons I don’t like the idea of this Convention. I can’t find fault in the language, but I have absolutely no faith that our society is capable of producing the change envisioned. I’m sure we’d see some legislation, a lot of money would be spent, people with big friends would get good jobs, bureaucrats would get secure jobs, social service workers would get shitty jobs, schools would have new requirements, some bad parents would go to jail, but I don’t think the overall experience of children would change at all. All we’d get is more regulation crafted by the same people who created the culture we’re trying to fight. It’s like asking Clinton tips on good decision making, Reagan for tricks to improve memory, or Bush for help with that big speech you’ve got coming up.

    The government we have is terrible when it comes to respecting the rights of human beings, why on Earth would we give it more power and think that they’d use it any differently than all the other lies and broken promises we’ve bent way over to lap up so they could get into position?

  97. @La Lubu

    As William and EG have said, I’m completely on board with the state funding more after-school type programs (both actually after school, and in the summer). I just don’t think that longer (or more) school days are going to result in more tutoring, or extracurriculars, or art programs. And while there is absolutely a class component to the idea that kids use time outside of school for those activities, it’s definitely not universally the case that only middle and upper class children do so. I grew up with a lot of kids whose families had no money at all for activities outside of school (and my parents didn’t have a lot for them), but many still spent holidays with relatives (particularly non-custodial parents; one boy I knew lived with his mother in the city during the school year, and spent summers with his aboriginal father on a reserve) or accessed community-center programs. Summer school is something kids of all backgrounds (and probably more non-monied children than upper class children, because of the tutoring/parental time disparity during the school year) participate in, and part of what makes it valuable is the opportunity to catch up to your peers — and receive more individual attention — because not everyone has to do it. And as kids reach their high school years, time outside of school is frequently used for part-time work. I’d just rather see the limited resources we have go towards more voluntary, targeted programs than mandatory extra school.

  98. Ok, I’ve figured what it is that rubs me the wrong way about longer school days. It’s exactly the same thing that bothers me when I hear about upper middle-class kids who have violin lessons after school on Mondays, Hebrew school Tuesdays and Thursdays, Soccer practice Wednesdays, Saturdays, and sometimes Sundays, and tutoring for an assortment of standardized tests on Fridays.

    Between all that and homework (to say nothing of practicing that violin), when does the kid get any free time? How does the kid learn how to structure his or her own time? In my opinion, unstructured time is very important; that’s my memory from my childhood, but it’s also something that crops up in articles about child development that I read from time to time. If kids are in mandatory schooling until 5:30–well, if it had been me, I wouldn’t have gotten home until 6:30, because my school was an hour’s commute away. Then it’s dinner time. Then, say 7:30, I do my homework, which often takes or took some hours, and if school starts at 8:30 in the morning, and I have to leave the house at 7:30 to get there on time, which means I get up at 6 or 6:30…it’s time for bed, and I haven’t even had a chance to do any chores around the house that might be my responsibility, let alone practice that violin, indulge in any hobbies or creative pursuits, talk on the phone with a friend, or, God forbid, play a video game or watch a television program.

    And I think that’s a shame. I loved my free time when I was a child; I needed it, and I’m not even an introvert, who’d have probably need more of it than I did. I mean, I even stayed up regularly until 2 in the morning, even though I had to get up at 6:30 or so, just so I could grab a few hours to myself in the apartment after my mother and sister were asleep (since I didn’t have my own room, I could only guarantee some time on my own if everybody else was sleeping). Here’s what I did during my free time: read books almost constantly, hung out and played card games with my friends, worked (once I turned 15), went to a museum with friends, watched Mystery Science Theater 3000, wrote poetry, and read more books.

    And not every kid is suited to having lots of unstructured time. But many are. So while I want there to be afterschool and summer options, making it mandatory, like school is, really bothers me, as I think it could end up depriving kids of exactly the time they need to develop into the adults they could. That said, I would be very supportive of places where kids could safely spend unstructured time–libraries and recreation centers and the like.

    The government we have is terrible when it comes to respecting the rights of human beings, why on Earth would we give it more power and think that they’d use it any differently than all the other lies and broken promises we’ve bent way over to lap up so they could get into position?

    I agree, William, but that argument could be made for every single piece of government intervention ever. Unless what we want to advocate is some kind of libertarian “paradise” with no restrictions on anybody’s behavior whatsoever, or communal anarchism, then this is what we have to work with. I find libertarianism to be odious, and while I find anarchism romantic and inspiring, I just don’t have enough faith in basic human kindness to actually think it would work.

    It is possible to make education the central feature of a public school; it was the central feature of the public school I attended from age four to age eighteen, lucky me. But, as you say, we as a society lack the desire to prioritize it.

  99. Oh, another thing I did with my free time? (The earlier comment to which I am referring is awaiting moderation, but all will become clear in time.) Feminist activism! Operation Rescue came to NYC the summer I was 16. We were ready for them.

  100. EG: As far as signing the treaty goes…how would it hurt, in your formulation. The US not signing it is not going to help kids in rock quarry.

    It wouldn’t hurt. I’m not necessarily against the treaty. If you go back to my original comment, my point is that I don’t think our not signing is as significant as Kristen thinks it is.

    At each step in this thread, you’ve disagreed with something I’ve said, taken it in isolation, and then when I’ve responded, you’ve taken one piece of my response in isolation. You’re making a lot of assumptions about where I’m coming from.

  101. @EG #23

    It’s a very, very good idea to get used to the fact that other people control your life. Because if you don’t have coping skills to deal with when your superiors are wrong, stupid, or annoying, you are going to get kicked out of life very quickly.

    And hitting a child is when necessary, and RARELY. I remember my mom spanking me because I ran away into the street, and it was awful and scary and you can bet I stopped running into the street after that (I had issues running away as a kid). If you use it as a standard punishment, it’s going to loose all effect and not impart useful lessons. (Useful: running into the street is scary. Not useful: dropping my plate is scary).

  102. @karak I’m really confused by your argument. Sure, people try to control me. I have to ‘submit’ to my employers, to a certain degree. But there are obviously places in my life where I am not controlled in this way (my own home is a thing that exists)! and more than that, there are things to which I do not have to submit to, even at work (eg sexual harassment).

    It is not necessary to replicate workplace (etc) conditions within the home to teach a child that they must conform. A child learns that there are restrictions to their behavior out in the world by, like, being out in the world!

    By your logic, it’d be better to raise m kid in a patriarchal environment so she’s not surprised by patriarchy outside the front door. Um, no thanks to that.

    I find it really odd that people so often assume that children will automatically become ZOMGLORDOFTHEFLIES or at the least, socially inept and unbearable, if they are not forced to submit to adult control simply because they are children.

    Encouraging my child to express her opinions is not the same as raising her with Veruca Salt-like entitlement or preventing her from learning social conventions like taking turns and respect for property.

    Also, the idea that spanking is ever necessary is very much in dispute. Your parents chose to spank you to teach an important safety lesson. That does not mean spanking was necessary. I don’t hit my child but that hardly means I don’t teach her things like road safety!

    I feel like this is a bit of a derail from the broader discussion here but, yeah, some people still seem to be stuck on
    ‘but you must CONTROL kids because Lord of the Flies is a scientific study for real you guyz’.

    @EG I completely agree about the need or free time and there are a lot of concerns about the impact that a lack of free time has on kids’ health.

    @Anonoregonian Yes. I see so many parenting-related discussions descend into classism. It’s just easier to blame people – especially mothers – than to commit to providing what is needed. This is why fat parents are pilloried when in fact ‘childhood obesity’ is an ‘epidemic’ of poverty, not an ‘epidemic’ of careless stupid parents or lazy gluttonous children.

  103. It’s a very, very good idea to get used to the fact that other people control your life. Because if you don’t have coping skills to deal with when your superiors are wrong, stupid, or annoying, you are going to get kicked out of life very quickly.

    Do you honestly think that if we as a society made respecting children’s rights to freedom of thought and expression a priority, they would somehow grow to adulthood completely unaware that other people control their lives? Trust me, they know (that’s why they flip out over the little things that they can control, like the color of their socks). They’re not stupid, or at least no stupider than any other group of people. They’ve noticed that other people decide when they go to sleep, what they eat, when they eat, when they wake up, when they’re allowed to go out, what they’re allowed to do once they are out, and what they’re allowed to play with. It has not escaped their notice that almost nothing in this world is designed with them in mind, size-wise and strength-wise. Accepting the fact that they have the right to disagree with you and to express that disagreement is not going to rock the power dynamics inherent in the adult-child relationship to their core.

    My parents never hit me when I did something dangerous. Seeing the cars bearing down on me when I accidentally stepped out into the street at the wrong time and hearing my mother scream scared me plenty. Did being hit scare me? I don’t know. It’s an interesting question. Certainly not enough to make me change my behavior. I didn’t live in a state of fear. But I’d have to say no, it did not scare me the way that, those cars scared me, or that sharks scared me.

    But just to combine your two concerns–you say there are certain things you’re not “allowed” to say in front of your parents. How would enforce that? I can give you from experience a list of things that do not work: hitting, yelling, fighting for hours, removal of TV privileges, cancelling allowance, confining to room, cancelling playdates. I mean, sure, if you actually deny a kid food for a day or two, or beat him or her to a bloody pulp, then I can see that would have worked on me. But I would also say that those things cross the line into abuse.

    There are things that, now that I am an adult, I choose not to say to my parents, either because I don’t want to upset them or because I don’t think it would be productive. But not allowed? No.

  104. Well there was recently a compilation on science blog about the various benefits of unstructured free play for kids… seemed like a good enough thing to promote.

    Any extracurricular activities offered through after school care should be optional (although maybe a mandatory homework/tutoring block of time wouldn’t be too bad). Seeing as how what we plan here is sure to happen, we better get it right… 😉

    (No seriously! I’ll make it happen. I don’t know what, but I’m making it happen.)

  105. At each step in this thread, you’ve disagreed with something I’ve said, taken it in isolation, and then when I’ve responded, you’ve taken one piece of my response in isolation. You’re making a lot of assumptions about where I’m coming from.

    I’m sorry if I’ve been making assumptions. I wasn’t aware of them and will endeavor not to do so in the future. I’m not sure how that’s expressed, though, by disagreeing with parts of what you say. I disagree with you that the US fundamentally accepts the right of a child to education.

  106. “I really think it’s [redacted – bad] that we hit our kids. Here’s the [redacted – bad] part about it; kids are the only people in the world that you’re allowed to hit. Do you realize that? They’re the most vulnerable and the most destroyed by being hit but it’s totally OK to hit them. And they’re the only ones! if you hit a dog they will put you in jail for that shit. You can’t hit a person unless you can prove that they were trying to kill you. But a little tiny person with a head this big who trusts you implicitly: ‘FUCK ‘EM, WHO GIVES A SHIT! LET’S ALL HIT THEM!’ People want you to hit your kid. If your kid is making noise: ‘HIT HIM!!!! HIT ‘EM!!!! GRRRRRR'”

    –Louis CK

    [Mod Note: Not allowing that particular word even if it is in a quote.]

  107. Alexandra:
    The problem with the spanking debate is that there are plenty of people who were spanked as kids who turned out “just fine” (whatever that means) and there are plenty of people who have spanked or are spanking their children, and their children are socially well-adjusted, not fearful of their parents or other authority figures, etc etc etc.

    The problem with corporal punishment isn’t that it’s going to screw up every child, it’s that it’s going to screw up some children, and probably isn’t necessary even for the children it doesn’t particularly harm.

    When I hear people who were spanked support spanking, it seems to me like they do so out of the fear instilled in them. As if they don’t respect how their parents raised them, they’ll be spanked again.

  108. Rights are moderated by resources, of many different types. That is why rich kids often seem to have more rights, especially of certain kinds. Rights also moderate resources in some ways. I would be very interested to see the idealized rights of progressive society implemented without eventually leading to a society’s downfall. Eventually being a few hundred years.

  109. @Dawn,

    I’ve given this a lot of thought and I’m not publishing that last comment. I don’t like to pull the plug on people, but I absolutely will not allow people to deny that mothers experience oppression. No question, *some* mothers also experience enormous benefits from the kyriarchy, BUT the universe is not so simple that motherhood = privilege. If you’d like to reframe parts of the comment that are unrelated please do. Or if you prefer I can redact the parts that are troubling.

  110. EG: I’m sorry if I’ve been making assumptions. I wasn’t aware of them and will endeavor not to do so in the future. I’m not sure how that’s expressed, though, by disagreeing with parts of what you say. I disagree with you that the US fundamentally accepts the right of a child to education.

    I think we’re well down the rabbit hole, so this will be my last response. (Not flouncing, just need to get on.) The problem wasn’t that we disagreed. The assumptions were saying that I don’t think we need to fix anything here because it’s worse elsewhere and that I oppose the principles in the convention. There are more than just two sides here.

  111. Kristen J – I’m going to sound like class snitch here, but Dawn has major, major issues with mothers (see Natalia’s last post) and that plus some heinous behaviour on other threads leaves me stunned that she’s not been banned already. This post is the last place where mothers should be getting slated.

    Also, thanks for answering my question about same family fostering. It would be interesting to see how much informal fostering there is going on, as a stastical comparision.

  112. Spilt Milk: I don’t think anyone is saying ‘Lord of the Flies’ is actually someone’s seriously researched paper to end all papers. However, I found it very useful in explaining the behavior of my peers.
    I have a question- any right that one group gains is always at the expense of at least one other group. So if children gain the right to be a protected class, whose rights are going to be taken away?

  113. any right that one group gains is always at the expense of at least one other group

    You say this like it’s an undisputed fact. It’s not.

  114. Political Guinea Pig – I’m quoting you here:

    “I have a question- any right that one group gains is always at the expense of at least one other group. So if children gain the right to be a protected class, whose rights are going to be taken away?”

    Would you ask that question in a discussion about race or GLBT rights? Or would you just consider that PoC and GLBT folks are entitled to their rights, end of story?

    The fact that people even think that children having basic rights (and the UNCRC really isn’t that earth shattering, again http://www.crin.org is a good info source) could be viewed as negative is not just part of the problem, it IS the problem.

  115. @politicalguineapig I disagree with that premise. Social justice is not a zero-sum game. More consideration of the rights of children will necessarily lead to more consideration of the needs of mothers and families, particularly those who experience intersecting oppressions like poverty and disability. In a practical sense this plays out in many ways: more flexible and realistic parental leave policies will help women and men, and not just the parental types (insistence on linear career progression hurts plenty of people in the workforce, especially folks who are carers for people other than children). And is removing the ‘right’ to hit children from parents really taking away the rights from one group and bestowing them on another? Or is it actually promoting freedom from violence as a value? I don’t think the prevalence of spanking is because parents are violent assholes or in some way incompetent. I think it’s because Kyriarchy teaches us that we must control other groups and that hurting is a good and acceptable way to obtain that control. Or to put it this way – I don’t experience the lack of violence (perpetrated by me) in my home as a curtailment of my rights. I experience it as a kind of healing (given that freedom from violence was not something I was afforded as a kid).

  116. I think William’s post was brilliant. And it’s really true. We have these dreams of what an extended school day might look like, but the reality is, public schools are already not good at doing those things. If we extend the school day it will be nothing more than a holding pen for working class kids, while kids whose parents have the means take them elsewhere to get a better deal. While for the very most at-risk kids it MIGHT be an improvement in some ways just to have extra supervision, for most it would be no improvement and for others it would be a definite negative. For instance, kids are already stigmatized for not being able to focus and sit still for a regular school day…more kids would be stigmatized for that, the kids who could have made it through 6 hours but crack up at 7 or 8.

    I don’t think William needs to come up with a great alternative solution in order to be able to point out how unrealistic this proposed solution is. I always hate that type of argument (“don’t criticize unless your solution is perfect!”) because it’s disingenuous. His criticisms are just as valid even if he doesn’t have a better idea.

    I have witnessed in my own life how public schools “track” kids more by class than by skill, inclination, or talents, so you can bet that these extended school days would mean vocational training for kids earmarked as worker drones and enrichment and “empowerment” out the ears for the kids of the elite.

    My proposal for an alternative: better work flexibility not just for white collar cubicle workers but for everyone. Make it so you really can live on just one full-time blue collar job if you need to, rather than families having to patch together complicated and stressful combinations of jobs. Let a parent be home when the school bus rolls up. Let a neighborhood of parents be watching while the kids run and play outdoors in the afternoon.

    I really hate the idea that more state interference and monitoring and “empowering” will fix family problems. What the state needs to do is tend to our job market and economy and make it so that a family has half a chance of making it without working themselves to death.

  117. Anonoregonian:
    My proposal for an alternative: better work flexibility not just for white collar cubicle workers but for everyone. Make it so you really can live on just one full-time blue collar job if you need to, rather than families having to patch together complicated and stressful combinations of jobs. Let a parent be home when the school bus rolls up. Let a neighborhood of parents be watching while the kids run and play outdoors in the afternoon.

    YES, so much this. The answer is not warehousing kids in institutions because that’s convenient. It’s in realizing that our families and communities should be allowed to do the important work of raising children (and caring for other people in the community who require it).

  118. Debbie: If you study history at all, you’ll find that it is indeed a fact. Majorities hate to see any minority benefit, so if one minority group leaps forward, any other group will end up with less rights. For example, look at what happened to women after the 14th amendment passed- because of the huge backlash from that amendment, they couldn’t get suffrage passed until 1919.
    Safiya: While I’d like for all people to be able to be safe and to be equal, I’m a realist, and that’s not the kind of world we live in. I can’t get behind the fight for gay marriage 100% partly because the backlash from their wins is hitting women really hard. What do you think the sudden slash and burn attacks to family planning are about? The right is losing the marriage argument, so they’re looking for another group to victimize.
    Spilt Milk: I disagree. If one person HAS to stay at home because it’s in the best interest of the kiddies, you know who it’s going to be. Legally speaking, I can see a case from this treatment where a mother goes on trial because she failed to sacrifice her life for the kid- didn’t give up her career, lived in a risky area, etc. And workplaces just aren’t accomodating- and they don’t have to be in a recession.
    Oh, and just so you know- social justice is one of the terms I despise. One person’s ‘justice’ is going to be another person’s injustice.

  119. “My proposal for an alternative: better work flexibility not just for white collar cubicle workers but for everyone. Make it so you really can live on just one full-time blue collar job if you need to, rather than families having to patch together complicated and stressful combinations of jobs. Let a parent be home when the school bus rolls up. Let a neighborhood of parents be watching while the kids run and play outdoors in the afternoon.”

    That would be so awesome. I just want to be able to make enough money to be able to take care of my son and pay my bills and give him a decent childhood. It seems so far out of reach when you are disabled and can only earn 7-10 dollars an hour (if you’re lucky enough to get ten).
    I don’t even want to go to school, (I do desperately but it’s so unrealistic) I’m not good at it I can’t manage turning things in or remembering anything. They either need to do better research on regenerating brains damaged by prenatal meth exposure and extreme trauma or provide decent services without constantly trying to shove me full of medicine that doesn’t fix ANY of my symptoms and continually degrades the functioning of my liver to the point I am so fatigued I can bairly move and I’m am freaking yellow. No, by ruining my liver you are NOT making my brain work better, but thanks for trying.
    I need a job where I show up and do what people tell me to and go home. those jobs don’t pay enough to take care of your kids.

  120. Political Guinea Pig – “Legally speaking, I can see a case from this treatment where a mother goes on trial because she failed to sacrifice her life for the kid- didn’t give up her career, lived in a risky area, etc. ”

    Where? How? You are not going to see children suing their parents because the parents were poor. In a world where school budgets are being slashed, who would even fund such legal action? Upthread it has been discussed that it’s difficult enough for children from disadvantaged backgrounds to get a fair hearing in the legal system, yet you’re forseeing a future where they can engage in lawsuits just because. How does that make sense?

    Enough with the strawchildren scenarios, they’re derailing and silly.

  121. Um, excuse me, where did I say one person HAS to stay home? I most certainly did not say that. But the reality is, politicalguineapig, that most families prefer to have the option of one parent staying home for a time. Don’t insult my intelligence by implying that I’m not aware that the burden of child care/career sacrifices falls most heavily on mothers. That is the life I am living! But how do you propose changing such a thing if we don’t take steps to improve family-friendly provisions in workplaces? And yeah, I don’t think fear of the religious right should drive the feminist or liberal agenda. We shouldn’t be in the business of apologizing for asserting our needs.

  122. Okay William, I hear you, but propose an alternative. I’m all ears.

    I don’t have an alternative, I’m a bitter cynic. I’m actually pretty far beyond hope that we can make schools be anything other than warehouses with a side of propaganda. I’m also pretty sure that the society we live in doesn’t have an interest in protecting the rights of children because it doesn’t generally have an interest in protecting the rights of people and it almost never has an interest in protecting the rights of marginalized or disempowered people. I don’t think you’re going to change that through advocacy and I don’t think any movement capable of producing the body count you’d need to change it through force would leave us with much better.

    What I like more than alternative ways of trying to jury-rig a broken system so that it sucks a little bit less is open access to information and community involvement. Schools aren’t going to work well, so fuck ’em. We all have kids in our lives, though, and we can all help make them curious. We can teach them what information is worth. We can teach them that learning is an end in itself. We can teach them to be critical thinkers so they can call out the bullshit they see and we can show them by example that using your voice is almost always preferable to the alternative. If we treat the children in our lives with respect then all they need is access to knowledge and suddenly schools failing matter less. Its still a bad situation, but its a little better.

    Its not about being a libertarian or an anarchist, its about not waiting for someone with power who has shown you nothing but the back of their hand to make your life better and doing what you can. Maybe its not enough, but its all we have.

  123. @William,

    Dammit, William, I was counting on you to come up with the magic solution that would make the universe just. I guess I’m not with you yet. Maybe in a few years. But I still think the government has the potential to do better. Sure we’d have to completely overhaul the country, and probably a convince a large number of people to change their minds…but I consider that doable.

  124. @kristen,

    [Mod Note: I really want to focus on children here so I’m redacting some parts that are off topic.]

    My earlier comment doesn’t seem to have gone through,

    I am not saying that motherhood is protection against everything. Nowhere in my comment did I say that mothers could not be oppressed. Society in general is biased against women and we all get the short end of the stick.

    [Redacted]

    Back to the main issue of discussion, I honestly cannot view this as anything more than another sheet of paper that means nothing. It will not change things for children, when I was a child, all those provisions were in place and it didn’t help one whit. Rights are all very well, but you have to have the power to protect them, you have to have people willing to back you up and most of all you have to have the infrastructure there to support your rights. Rights are bugger all good if you can’t access the help you need to protect them.

    Free medical care doesn’t help children who can’t access it.
    Free schooling doesn’t help children who are denied it.

    Not to mention the folks talking about prison reform because “kids shouldn’t be behind bars”, so what do you suggest we do with folks like Mary Bell and the murderers of James Bulger? What do we do with ten year old rapists who know the police can’t touch them so are free to attack again while their victim must live with the attack forever?

    It’s all very well to talk about reform, but you need to protect the kids who don’t rape and murder their peers from the ones who do rape and murder their peers and sometimes that means jail.

  125. @Kristen,

    To be blunt, children aren’t brought by the stork. Policies that affect children also affect mothers (and vice versa) and sometimes are leveraged in such a way that children or other groups are hurt by them.

    Also other folks have brought up maternity leave, I don’t see you clipping their posts. Maternity leave impacts a woman’s long term wage and marketability, which has an impact on her children, ergo the wage gap IS important to the welfare of children. Please apply the rules to everyone, instead of only selectively editing my posts.

    1. @Dawn, it wasn’t comments about maternity leave that I wanted to leave out of this discussion. Its possible I misread/misunderstood your comment and if that’s the case I apologize.

  126. “I can’t get behind the fight for gay marriage 100% partly because the backlash from their wins is hitting women really hard. What do you think the sudden slash and burn attacks to family planning are about? The right is losing the marriage argument, so they’re looking for another group to victimize.”

    Because those are totally separate, non-overlapping groups, and no women are gay. I’m sure that wasn’t your intention, but that’s exactly what it sounded like. With all of the unfortunate implications your statement contains.

  127. Regarding a family making it on one blue-collar job: I have one good blue collar job (most of the time). My family is…me and my daughter. So no, one decent job with no social resources to back it up *isn’t* going to help a lot of people. I said “longer school day” for utilitarian reasons. There is still some remnant of people where I live that don’t think public schools should be abolished. Public schools still *exist*, so why not make use of them? That’s our money going there, after all.

    Y’know, I’m sympathetic to Gatto and the unschoolers and all; it’s not that I disagree with their critiques. And I do exactly what William recommends….encouraging curiosity, skepticism, questioning authority, weeding out the unspoken agendas and covert isms, speaking out and standing your ground, defending yourself, all that. Those are life skills; skills that come naturally to human beings and just need honing, encouragement, practice (and anyone who doubts that need only look to how many resources are devoted to crushing those skills….despite how resilient they are).

    But the fact is, dammit, that most children under high school age *are not* better off spending eight hours or more a day without a structured form of formal education. My great-grandparents were bright, vibrant, and *tough* people…..and largely uneducated. Some were *totally* illiterate. They weren’t better off for it, because they were no longer peasants in a (basically feudal) agrarian society, but immigrants to the industrial US.

    So, when I hear a critique of schooling whose bottom line is “school sucks; homeschool/unschool instead”, I hear privilege talking. Not just the privilege of being able to do so in the first place, but the privilege of knowing that one’s child will do well in the world *without* formal education.

    School isn’t any different from work. There is good and bad everywhere, and those life skills of curiosity, et. al., are going to be operative (and necessary) everywhere. But….this isn’t an abstract issue for me. This is direct, immediate. I’m totally unconvinced that vouchers are going to do anything more than shift a large portion of public dollars into religious institutions that would make the current public schools look like bastions of freedom and equality by comparison (and have no doubt—the religious right is fighting for vouchers because people have been quietly leaving those institutions for decades).

    Why assume that public schools—a slice of the public pie that everyone has an opinion on, and most of us have experienced personally—are immutable to change? That hasn’t been true of most public institutions. I owe my livelihood to the Civil Rights Act and Title IX—literally. I’m not a person that would do well in a libertarian society; I don’t have that kind of social or economic power and privilege. Every advantage I have is rooted in collective action, whether from my union or from other social justice activism (the Civil Rights movement, feminist movement, labor movement, etc.). So, I’m skeptical of the idea that “moar individualism” and individualized solutions are going to bring better education to the masses. The folks with the least privileges have always been better served by mass movement.

    It’s a perfectly valid critique to ask for alternative plans. Not “perfect”—that doesn’t exist. Just…..workable. Serviceable. Something that can work in the here and now while continuing to evolve. Like Kristen J, I’m all ears. Just please don’t think that “one good blue collar job” is going to make it feasible for me or other single parents to homeschool, and please don’t have the illusion that most adults are going to feel comfortable leaving the workforce for long periods of time (especially those of us who’ve dealt with Shit Hitting The Fan), and for the love of Maude don’t think that we still don’t have to deal with backlash against feminist gains. I have a *daughter*, FFS; I don’t want “housewife” to be her only realistic goal, especially since she herself wants to be a wildlife biologist.

  128. Respecting kids’ preferences does not mean deferring to them.

    When we say an adult has a legal right to make their own medical decisions, it actually does mean we defer to their preferences even if we think they’re making a bad decision. If we write a law saying kids have a legal right to privacy, it ought to mean the same thing. If it doesn’t, then we are pointlessly using the same phrase in a confusing way and then saying oh, well, we’re going to ignore it anyway because that obviously doesn’t work. There’s a huge difference between saying “good parents should respect that their kids have individual personalities and use good judgement in each situation” and saying “there’s a law that kids have a legal right to privacy.”

    Does the fact that every other country on Earth that signed the Convention not now have children roaming the streets tell you something.

    It tells me they’re completely ignoring the literal meaning of what they wrote down, as well they should, because a lot of it doesn’t make much sense.

  129. @Kristen,

    My whole point which you unfortunately wiped out is that children’s rights do not exist in a vacuum, like any marginalised groups rights they are enforced or not by the protection we give others.

    It is all very well to say children have a right to freedom from abuse, but when we insist mother automatically equals caring and a lot of other things, you get situations where a kid is given to a known female abuser because somehow their father isn’t as good a parent as an abuser simply because he’s not a mother.

    It’s all very well to say that disabled children need more help, but those children grow up and the resources aren’t there to help and protect them as adults (The kid provision isn’t great either but at least most get something).

    The rights of mothers are bound up in the rights of children, and often that’s what does the greatest harm. Society creates this mythical mommy stereotype, that mothers are always capable, loving and the best person to keep kids with, and it’s not real, in fact I’d consider it to be downright detrimental to some children.

    My point as always is society says one thing then it does another. This is harmful for many groups of people.

    As for the comments about the longer school day? Doesn’t anyone remember their time in school? School sucks for many children and home is the only place they have respite from that.

    Also unschooling or home schools isn’t just a yuppy thing, some parents have to do it because the schools can’t or -won’t- keep their kids safe. I went to a school where we had several sexual assaults and an attempted murder, and these weren’t teens, they were aged 9 to 11 years. It’s a privilege to have a safe education really, many students do not get that, and if you up the hours at school without first tackling bullying and other issues in schools, you’ll start driving more kids to take their own lives because it means hours more in company of monsters.

  130. Kristen J @142:

    Dammit, William, I was counting on you to come up with the magic solution that would make the universe just. I guess I’m not with you yet. Maybe in a few years. But I still think the government has the potential to do better. Sure we’d have to completely overhaul the country, and probably a convince a large number of people to change their minds…but I consider that doable.

    I disagree, but I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t happy to be doing it. I might not have much hope that we could do that, but I’d be thrilled to be proven wrong.

    La Lubu @147:

    But the fact is, dammit, that most children under high school age *are not* better off spending eight hours or more a day without a structured form of formal education.

    Its the structure that gets me. Its also worth noting that the structure you’re talking about continues into high school. I’d argue that its a precursor to being the kind of peasant the person writing the check would prefer. Sure, kids need a bit of structure, but I’m not certain that no structure is necessarily worse than too much structure.

    So, when I hear a critique of schooling whose bottom line is “school sucks; homeschool/unschool instead”, I hear privilege talking. Not just the privilege of being able to do so in the first place, but the privilege of knowing that one’s child will do well in the world *without* formal education.

    The children most effected by our terrible system of education are not doing well in the world now. Yet somehow the only question we ever seem to ask is “how can we exert more control on these kids and force an outcome we prefer?”

    My question there would be: why does our system look the way that it does? With the exception of kids with learning disabilities, it doesn’t take 8 years to teach a child to read, do the basic math necessary to get by in life, and have a working understanding of the scientific method. Beyond that, real learning comes down to interest rather than necessity. The lion’s share of formal education before college revolves around specific lessons designed to instill specific skills like listening to authority, tolerating boredom, following directions, accepting discomfort, etc. I really do think its worth questioning why we spend so much time hammering these skills into children. Thats especially true when there are alternative educational models available. I think its telling that schools are still basically modeled after prisons, industrial factories, and boot camps even though we know that such a structure isn’t conducive to learning. I think its telling that we’ve never really experimented with something like Waldorf education on a wide scale in this country. I think its telling that when we talk about school reform we always end up talking about standardization, testing, and longer school days.

    I’m totally unconvinced that vouchers are going to do anything more than shift a large portion of public dollars into religious institutions that would make the current public schools look like bastions of freedom and equality by comparison

    I think that we need school choice so that bad schools die. I think vouchers are an interesting idea but I don’t really think they’re feasible right now for the exact same reasons you’ve outlined. I’m a big fan of public charter schools in urban areas. When you have the population density to require hundreds (or even dozens) of schools why not instill a bit of competition and allow for choice by having those schools have different foci? If you’ve got a fine arts program, a rigorous math and science program, a program that focuses on language, a Waldorf program, and a Montessori program to choose from you’re a lot more likely to find a good fit for your kid than if your choices are “shitty free public-but-secular or marginally better private-but-religious.”

  131. Charter schools in my area (NE seaboard) are very hit or miss.

    I also dislike the idea that in order to have access to a good education, you have to specialize in high school (or earlier!). What if you send you child to an arts school, and four years later they decide what they really wanted was to be an engineer?

    And while my HS education was not all related to what I was going to be doing in my life, I am glad that I was compelled to learn it. I don’t think basic literacy, simple math skills, and a grasp of the scientific method should be all that we strive to teach. Children are capable of learning so much more–even if at the time, they don’t see how it relates to their life.

    High school taught me how to navigate the system. And yeah, the system sucks. But without making it through a good public high school, I’d never have had the tools to get to the position of privilege I’m in today. Those lessons of how to treat authority, how to work the system, were invaluable in the “real world.”

  132. @complicated :

    Respecting kids’ preferences does not mean deferring to them.

    When we say an adult has a legal right to make their own medical decisions, it actually does mean we defer to their preferences even if we think they’re making a bad decision

    It’s hard to parse threads this long, but are you saying that deferring to a child’s wishes about their medical treatment is a bad thing? (sorry if that’s not what you’re saying)

    The USian attitude of “Not until you’re 18” or “Not until you pay for your own health insurance” seems frankly appalling to me.

    In the UK any person who is capable of understanding the consequences of the acceptance/refusal of any given procedure, is allowed (by law) to refuse it. 8 year olds have refused heart transplants, ten year olds have refused chemo, thirteen year olds have had abortions.

    You cannot make someone consent to a procedure, it’s inhumane. If a child says “Listen, I’ve had cancer since I was three. This is my fifth round of chemo. I’ve spent more time in hospital than out of it. I’m aware I will only live six months without treatment, but I want that time to be a kid. All I want is six months of normal childhood, riding my bike, going to the cinema, walking my dog” then compelling that child to undergo treatment is abusive.

    If a child (or anyone else) can demonstrate that they understand what will happen to them if they refuse chemo (or a transplant, or whatever) then they will be given the means to live their life as comfortably as possible. They can change their decision at any time.

    We have a TV programme here called ‘Born to Be Different’. It has followed several children from their birth in 2000, and catches up with them every 18 months or so. The children have a range of disabilities from achondroplasia, to Down’s Syndrome, to spina bifida and others including seizure disorders or joint malformation.

    The children are seen navigating home life, education, social life, and medical care. Almost without exception it is the children who have chosen their path. When I watch USian documentaries it’s the parents who choose for their children, and who have the ability to override consent.

    A medical framework like this lets people have a sense of control over their bodies and lives. Children with congenital or acquired disabilities will spend their entire lives being patronised, controlled, and disrespected. We should defer to the wishes of any child who has to live in the body that surgery/treatment will give them. Allowing children to choose if, and when, to have surgery/treatment can only improve the eventual outcome.

    @Dawn – I think I’ve just realised who you are. I honestly thought you had changed, but instead you’ve simply found a different venue as an outlet.

  133. William, I would like the type of public school choice you describe. But….learning takes more than just interest. It takes access, too. A child whose favorite subject is science, and who has access to a science class and laboratory is going to learn much more than a child who loves science, but whose only access to learning it is….reading some science books by herself while she’s home alone during the day (which is indeed what “homeschooling” would look like for most kids, since most parents have to work and there aren’t that many night-shift jobs to go around). I’m not a fan of rigidity and authority; that’s not what I’m looking for in a school, and I already know how to counter that sort of thing. What I and most other parents *can’t* do is scratch up the kind of educational *access* to a variety of learning materials, teachers, modes of teaching, etc. without the structure—social, physical, logistical….of a *school*. For what it’s worth, there is a Montessori school here, and if I won the lottery, I might consider that…..but again, my situation is more complicated than average because my daughter does have a learning disability.

    (Still looking forward to your guest post on education btw, William. Sure hope you’d consider it.)

  134. @Paraxeni

    Many people think they know me, sadly they don’t. Not really.

    I agree with you btw that children do need their right to informed consent about their medical issues protected. Living with a medical issue is a lot harder when the person making all the decisions not only isn’t you but is also someone who doesn’t necessarily have your best interests at heart or even give a hoot if you die beyond being upset at the loss of child benefit. (and who may even find the prospect of them receiving additional funding for you being disabled to be a bonus)

    The rights of children are often directly linked into adult issues. You get a bad start as a child, it’s likely to continue into your adulthood, especially if you’re a minority child.

    I really think that groups need to move past the tendency to see rights in isolation. True social equality needs to come from tackling the issues with knowledge of the impact on various groups, not from giving group X right Y and calling it a day.

  135. La Lubu: Interestingly enough, I went to a Montessori public school, and I have a learning disability. I wouldn’t recommend it for a child with a learning disability, because the kids have too much free time, and it’s very easy for a kid to simply not learn anything at all. Also due to the emphasis on cooperation and group learning, a child who’s either too far ahead or too far behind in the group is absolutely screwed.
    I found that structured learning worked way better, and I didn’t have to hold myself back anymore. YMMV, but that’s my two cents.

  136. It’s hard to parse threads this long, but are you saying that deferring to a child’s wishes about their medical treatment is a bad thing? (sorry if that’s not what you’re saying)

    I’m saying that an absolute rule to that effect is a bad thing, because that would mean leaving a 2 year old unvaccinated if they say they don’t want a shot because it hurts. You yourself said that in the UK any person who understands the consequences has a right to refuse medical treatment – not all children regardless of maturity level or understanding.

    All I’m saying is that a black and white law doesn’t make sense here. I’m not sure why that is controversial, but I have other things to do, so I’m giving up on explaining it at this point otherwise I’ll waste my whole day.

  137. “Children” is the name of the world’s most oppressed minority group.

    I’m not joking.

    After all, if you knew of a group of people who had the following restrictions placed on them, you’d probably conclude that they were oppressed:

    They can’t vote.
    They can’t sign contracts.
    They can’t serve on a jury.
    They are restricted in the ways they can earn an income. Even if they do earn an income, it is rarely enough to be self-sufficient, and they have limited ability to control how the money is spent.
    They can’t consent to sexual relations.
    They can’t purchase certain legal substances.
    They can’t hold political office.
    They can’t drive cars.
    They can’t travel freely, instead needing permission from someone else.
    They can’t direct their own education.
    They can be forced to attend religious services against their will.
    They can’t control their own medical treatment, and can be forced to take psychoactive medications against their will.
    They can’t choose where to live.
    They can have their genitals modified without their consent.

    1. No…
      (1) X is the most oppress group evar is a ridiculous statement.
      (2) Lots of kids have a shit load of privilege that isn’t reflected in that list
      (3) Lots of different types of marginalized groups experience oppression even worse that that list

  138. Oh get the fuck out. Children also have the right to subsist quite comfortably on their parents’ income without working (in my country, at least). Know many adults who get to enjoy that?

    Kids’ lives are not always cushy and carefree, but to call them the world’s most oppressed group is absolutely ridiculous.

  139. @Doug,

    They also:

    A: Grow out of it. One does not grow out of being PoC, GLBTQ, Female, disabled or any other group. (Disabled occasionally since some conditions are children only conditions and disappear as someone ages).
    B: Enjoy a lot more leeway with their actions than an adult does, if I acted like most children do, I’d be tossed out on my ear within five seconds.
    C: Aren’t sufficiently informed/mature to do things like vote, sign contracts or do jury duty (besides, who wants to sit on a jury? Most people try to avoid it).
    D: Them not working/not being able to consent to sex is to protect them from exploitation.

    While I grant you have a point with regards to genital mutilation. The rest is ridiculous. Not to mention it’s offensive to compare children to marginalised groups and to argue that children are more marginalised.

  140. Debbie: If you study history at all, you’ll find that it is indeed a fact. Majorities hate to see any minority benefit, so if one minority group leaps forward, any other group will end up with less rights. For example, look at what happened to women after the 14th amendment passed- because of the huge backlash from that amendment, they couldn’t get suffrage passed until 1919.

    Damn, your comment is patronizing. I have studied history, but I’m not American, so your examples are not particularly relevant to me. However, GLBT rights are far more advanced where I live (Canada), with no deleterious effects on the rights of women. Rights are not zero sum.

  141. Debbie: Sorry. Most of the commentariat is U.S-based, so- my bad, and I’ll try to keep my assumptions in check. That said, I’ve found that most people in the US barely know any history- or science- at all.
    Ok, but I’d argue that Canada is not nearly as prudish as the US, so socially speaking, it’s much more progressive. Unfortunately, in the US, gaining rights is a zero-sum game. Shouldn’t be, but it is, and will be until we manage to subdue the religious right.

  142. Paraxeni – Thanks for that comment. I’m thinking that the scenario your describe might seem unrealistic to some here, but I assure that that is what happens. For anyone who’s interested, a google of ‘Gillick competence’ would provide some very interesting reading.

    UK law and practice regarding children, young people and medical consent is actually pretty progressive. This in contrast to our legislation regarding children and criminal responsibility, which the UNCRC reports have been highly critical of.

  143. but again, my situation is more complicated than average because my daughter does have a learning disability.

    I wanted to focus on this in specific because, well, I’m coming from the place of a kid with a poorly-understood learning disability who was absolutely failed by a well funded school system. From my perspective, the issue with schools is what I faced: schools are geared not towards serving students but towards disciplining students into the roles they are expected to play later in life.

    Take special education classes, for instance. When I was a Freshman in high school my IEP had three accommodations listed: unlimited time on tests, the ability to get copies of teacher notes, and forty-five minutes per school day of Specialized Education. I needed the extra time on tests because it was (and still is) difficult for me to physically write, the teacher notes were practically useless to me because I’m an auditory learner (taking notes actually reduces how well I learn material), and then there was the “Specialized Education.” All three of these were boilerplate IEP accommodations, any kid with a learning disability had these exact same privileges because thats what you did with kids who had learning disabilities.

    What I really needed was the “Specialized Education.” I needed help with organization skills, I needed someone to figure out how to translate the work for a class like geometry into something I could understand (I have extremely poor spacial relations skills). What I got were phonics workbooks, training on how to look things up in the dictionary, and “life skills” classes. As a Freshman in high school my language skills were already topping out any standardized test I’d ever encountered, but no one really understood how to deal with a kid who had a learning disability and an IQ that hovered out past the third standard deviation. All this added up to a bored, resentful, mouthy teenager who got into a lot of trouble because there wasn’t much else to do and he didn’t have much of an incentive to bother with impulse control. Discipline didn’t work on me because I had a strong will, didn’t really care about suspensions, and enjoyed being yelled at because I could usually outsmart an administrator and walk away feeling like I’d won. I wasn’t a “huggable retard” (four times I’ve heard that out of the mouthes of school administrators or teachers) so no one felt bad for me. I was constantly suspected of cheating the system and having to prove that my disability was real because I could maintain excellent performance on most tests even though I was absent a lot, suspended a lot, and seemed to not be paying attention the rest of the time. Not handing in homework that bored me (or saying it bored me because I was too embarrassed to admit that I lost it) was interpreted as lazy and oppositional.

    The administration at my high school wanted to know what kind of student I was, they were observing me as they do all students. Would I be a jock? A good student? Would I be the huggable idiot that everyone could pat themselves on the back for suffering? Would I be one of the average kids who just gets by and avoids notice? By the end of my Freshman year it was decided that I was a trouble maker. By the time my Sophomore year was finished it was determined that I was dangerous, not because I had ever done anything dangerous, but because the fact that I hadn’t responded to the normal means of coercion meant that I was uncontrolled which meant that I was a Dylan Kelbold waiting to happen (especially since I wore a lot of black and listened to Marilyn Manson). By the middle of my Junior year I had chronic health problems, a “D” average, was self medicating in dangerous ways, and most people had given up on telling me that I was wasting my potential. It took my parents, two caring teachers, and a pit bull of a special education attorney, but eventually it was figured out that if you let up on the reigns and give me freedom I’d do better.

    I know that that isn’t the case for all kids. I know that a lot of students need structure. The problem, to me, is that all we have is structure and its generally structure thats geared to the best interests of the school or the society rather than the child. Thats really the rub when it comes to the rights of children. If you’re going to be serious about that it might mean that the kid doesn’t do what you want them to do. They might never learn geometry because they can’t or don’t care, they might not be able to tell you the capitol of Rhode Island, they might suck at using commas. At the same time, no single system is going to be able to provide the kinds of services that all kids will need. A school that would have been perfect for me would have been a nightmare for a child with a verbal learning disability and anxiety. You just couldn’t build an environment optimal for both of us. That leaves you with two choices: either you develop a lot of small schools tailored and specialized for specific kinds of students (generalist can be a specialty in itself) or you have a system aimed at the middle. That second choice is what we have now and it fails. It fails kids in the middle, it fails kids at the margins worse.

    That your child has a learning disability does complicate things. Thats absolutely true. But the smaller and more responsive a system is the better it will be able to deal with your child’s needs. That ability of the school to adapt to the child, rather than the other way around, is vital because your child is unique. You’ll never find a system that fits them, one has to be built. Thats what I think a lot of the institutional opposition here is coming from: people who provide service to children are terrified of actually having to serve rather than give orders.

  144. But do you need a set of small schools, or can an institution offer specialized programs to different students? I had similar problems to yours, William; my high school was a joke. I couldn’t get a pass out of PE because–get this–I was able to stagger through changing, attendance, and ten minutes of physical exercise on the blue-moon days I made it to campus. A lot of that bullshit went away as soon as I got to community college, which was designed to place students on varying paths. I was able to fit my courseload, schedule, and concentration to my needs and interests. No life skills, less oversight, and if I disliked a teacher I traded in the class. It wasn’t perfect, but the improvement was stunning.

    I worry about magnet and charter schools because I think that school systems really can do a great deal with economies of scale–and I worry that these capsule schools will become (have become) a way to serve a token special-interest or special-need population while leaving the majority of students to suffer if not fail. All students are special, I think. Few seem to really thrive in an industrial format, although more pass. A global modular approach might actually work to help everyone, and to recognize the individual learning style of each student in the system.

  145. One other thing–if you have all kinds of stuff going on in one big place, it’s easier to change foci if you yourself change. And as you said, most students are not one way or another, but a collection of orientations and talents. Systems with very rigid tracking hurt students whose needs and capacities change over time, and a system with a bunch of small programs would encounter a moral hazard around rigidity: they would want the numbers to stay the same, and they would want to simplify their niches as much as possible.

  146. But do you need a set of small schools, or can an institution offer specialized programs to different students?

    I’ve thought for years that that would be a very good way of managing high schools but I think it would ultimately be a larger, more expensive, and harder to implement change. Even most small colleges or universities are still quite a bit larger than your average high school, and the largest high schools are outright dwarfed by pretty much any state university. Ultimately its a problem of resource allocation: you have more high school students than college students, but high schools are small and more numerous.

    One of the reasons I like the idea of charter schools in large urban areas (even if they’re narrowly tailored) is that all you really have to do to radically alter the way schools teach is develop an admissions system and make some administrative and teaching staffing changes. Moving high schools to look more like universities would mean building from the ground up and I’m not sure thats the best way to use education dollars on a system that might also fail. You can still get some of the economy of scale benefits because ultimately there will be some kind of oversight body which can use the collective needs of the entire school system to, say, negotiate lower prices on office supplies.

    Imagine if every 8th grader got a catalogue during their first week of school with 50 or 60 different school options to pick from. You could have standard generalist programs, programs with more of an emphasis on special ed, programs for people who would prefer to learn in single gender settings, arts programs, science programs, music programs, and all kinds of blends in-between. Programs that didn’t work or weren’t well attended could easily be phased out within three years and replaced with new ideas. Things that worked really well could proliferate while still leaving room for programs that worked better for specialized populations. All of these different kinds of schools could be overseen by a Board of Education to ensure that necessary minimums and quality concerns were met. If a kid found out they really didn’t like the environment they could transfer.

    The only “downsides” I see is that you’d have to allow children a lot more freedom to make their own decisions and teachers might actually have to develop lesson plans their students cared about, but I’d count both of those as features rather than bugs.

  147. But the smaller and more responsive a system is the better it will be able to deal with your child’s needs. That ability of the school to adapt to the child, rather than the other way around, is vital because your child is unique.

    I understand that, and agree with it to a certain extent. The problem is that the type of system that you are talking about is never going to come to a place that I can afford to live in. I am a working-class single mother, so I have to work within the relatively small parameters I have. I’ve heard that Waldorf schools are amazing; they also cost between 10-20 thousand dollars per year (totally out of my league) and they don’t exist downstate, anyway. (just using that as an example because you mentioned it earlier)

    Meanwhile, I can see what piny’s talking about actually being feasible here, where I live, using the resources available *right now*. Not in some future world after the Revolution, but right goddamn now when we need it. There’s already a local activist group of parents and community groups organizing for this sort of thing right now (which is where I spent late yesterday afternoon).

    I hear what you’re saying, William—but you live in Chicago. A bunch of smaller systems can work in a place that large. When you’re dealing with less than a quarter-million people, and certainly when you’re dealing with a city of less than 150,000…..smaller systems will not work. They aren’t enough resources to go around. Economy of scale is necessary when the density isn’t there.

  148. Fair enough. I’m all for more choices and less standardization. What I’m talking about would work well, cost less, and not require a revolution in a big urban area. I’m not exaggerating when I say that I can think of three public high schools within a couple of miles of where I’m sitting right now, theres no reason for them all to have more or less the same curriculum. In a town with 150k people total, the solutions might be different.

  149. This is all so far out there. It’s making me a little punchy.

    I think you make very good points about contained facilities with specialized offerings–and the level of flexiblity/diversity you’re describing would indeed revolutionize our school system. But then again, so many different separate but affiliated schools might not be feasible outside of large urban areas.

    On further reflection, I don’t know if these two solutions are even mutually exclusive. There’s no reason a system couldn’t include multiple urban campuses and gigantic schools with more diverse options.

  150. I think part of the problem with conceptualizing any potential solution is that all of them have been used more or less as cover for shafting kids. Online courses! Media! Multiple tracks! Accelerated degrees! Charters! School choice! Computers for all! Vocational training! Internships! You name it, they’ve fucked with it.

  151. Exactly. When there’s only three public high schools in the city, you need the system piny’s talking about—“academies” within the same building—basically, using the same infrastructure but allowing students to choose their academic focus (which is what is being instituted where I live…..but not across the board yet. For example, some of the schools are starting academies of a specific focus—like health care or the arts, but except for the magnet schools, it’s not clear if those academies will be open for all residents. Also: a couple of schools have academies that sound interesting….but are sex-segregated—which I’m against for several reasons, not the least of which is that boys educated in same-sex environments hold fast to sexist beliefs and “separate spheres” attitudes toward women, and are less likely to treat women as equals in the workplace. We definitely need less of that shit downstate.)

  152. This idea sounds great! but very urban (as in “a town of only 150,000). Could any of this be done over the internet (or by some other means??) so that students who live far away from any large or dense urban areas can still benefit (without a 4 hour commute)?

    For example, my mom recently worked in a school “conference” (8 schools) where the largest town had maybe 1500 people, total. When these teams would meet for athletics, mathletes, conference honors band/choir, etc. the students would have to leave school super-early, like at noon for a 4pm track meet, because it would be 1-3 hours drive between schools. It irritated her (and many others, I’m sure) because it cut into the school day so much.

    I know this blog’s commentariat is mostly urban, but could we really adapt the “campus” idea for the many rural schools without making boarding schools? Because I really think that many of the specialization, special needs, etc. problems are more pronounced in rural areas, but it doesn’t get mentioned as much because the voices that get heard are so much more often from rural areas (corresponding with areas of centers of higher education) (this is also applicable to food desert and poverty issues that for some reason are always stereotyped as urban-only areas).

  153. Well, it would be pretty difficult to make campuses for rural areas. In theory we could have a high speed rail system or something to cut 100mile trips down to an hour, but that is prohibitively expensive and difficult to implement.
    Specialization of labor is directly related to population density and centers, and you would need specialized areas, equipment, curricula and educators to allow all students intensive training in multiple fields. Although, having intensive targeted programs is sort of overkill for high school. Remember that personal choice in careers is an artifact of privilege and that if everyone has access to high quality arts and sciences, there are still only a limited number of higher education and work positions in a given field. Further richer people would just spend more money producing superior programs in an already expense riddled education system.

  154. @William,

    You however are assuming that no child will ever by bullied by their peers, teachers or parents into selecting a course of education that is wholly unsuitable for them.

    Abusive parents especially may force their children to take the courses they want. Here in the UK, teens pick what to drop and what to continue for their GCSEs and there’s always a few who look desperately unhappy because they’d been railroaded by parents. Even at college this problem may continue.

    I’m not arguing against children being able to self select their education, I just think it would require protection to make sure that others did not force a child to select detrimental courses.

  155. Dawn:

    Bullying is always going to be an enormous problem, but I’m not sure you can build it out of a system. The system we have in the US now is one that boils down to the State bullying everyone who doesn’t have the wealth to opt out into the same highly tracked, poorly planned, broken system. Large academies like La Lubu and Piny are talking about or comparatively smaller charter schools like I’m talking about would leave us with less kids bullied out of making choices than we have today. Not none, but less. No system is going to be perfect out of the box and I can’t really envision a means of pushing back against bad parents in order to respect the rights of children that wouldn’t, as a a prerequisite, offer those children something to actual push towards.

  156. Abusive parents especially may force their children to take the courses they want. Here in the UK, teens pick what to drop and what to continue for their GCSEs and there’s always a few who look desperately unhappy because they’d been railroaded by parents. Even at college this problem may continue.

    I’ve heard of people who get bullied all the way to an M.D., and then finally switch over to painting or whatever like they always wanted — if a mid-20s-something adult feels pressured I’m not sure how you could possibly save a young kid or teen from it.

    In that case it might be good to insist on some variety in courses, so that even the kids who are being tracked for medical school “have” to take an art class, or the like. I’m a big fan of avoiding becoming too specialized too early because I don’t think most people can know for sure what will or won’t benefit them in the future. While that might mean less-than-total freedom in kids’ class selection, it also might give bullied kids the excuse to do at least one class they genuinely love.

  157. @Bagelsan—Another option might be to have a subset of classes that are not graded, not listed on the report card, and not officially registered for, but rather are an open-availability option for students to take some time and check out. Like, say, one period a day where the athletic facilities, art studios, computer and science labs, and whatever else are open, and faculty are available as needed, and kids can explore whatever they want either open-ended or creating a study plan with a teacher. Maybe even an advertised series of lectures on various subjects that don’t make it into elementary-and-high-school curriculums, like anthropology and astronomy.

    Maybe it’d need some structure, like signing up for tomorrow’s classes the day before, or requesting a teacher’s assistance for certain things, but the idea would be to have a period where each student can do anything that interests hir, with as much or little commitment as wanted—one kid can try out a new thing every day without being made to feel guilty for never sticking with anything; another can try learning to play the saxaphone one day a week rather than the five days plus rental arrangements required to take band class; another can gain some starting proficiency at basketball when zie would be embarrassed to join the team without enough previous experience; one can make artwork which hir family thinks is a waste of time; one can learn to write poetry, or study a non-offered foreign language as independent study, or study further into geology than the school’s curriculum goes.

    I’m dreaming, of course, but it’s as good a place to start as any.

  158. @William,

    I don’t think you can build it out of a system, but if you want to set up or advocate for a new system, it pays to be aware that there are still going to be people who slip through the cracks.

    @Bagelsan,

    My mother wanted me to be a scientist so I could “take care of her”. So I well understand how much pressure parents can put on kids to comply, funnily enough I’m an artist now.

  159. I don’t think you can build it out of a system, but if you want to set up or advocate for a new system, it pays to be aware that there are still going to be people who slip through the cracks.

    Obviously. I was one of those kids who fell through the cracks. Through a rare combination of privilege, great advocacy, will, and natural ability I was able to succeed despite the flaws in the current system we have now.

    The bottom line for me is that we don’t respect the rights of children and the system we have now basically substitutes parental bullying for systemic bureaucratic bullying when it comes to academic specialization. It provides very little choice and very little room for individuation. I think thats fucked up. If we reduce the systemic bullying there will still be bullying but it will be limited to parents, which will be another fight for later. Battles like this aren’t won with a single reform, its a series of painful, incremental stuggles. This is the one I find most pressing because its the one that damn near crushed me.

  160. William – it’s pointless arguing with Dawn, as she’s a fantasist.

    She’s claimed on some threads that she didn’t receive schooling because her mother wouldn’t let her go, now her mother’s accused of forcing her into a particular study track. She claimed (during the riots) that anyone on benefits was rolling in money, yet she’s on benefits and claims to be impoverished.

    She has a long history of this behaviour on other sites. It’s almost certainly why she’s posting here now, because she’s banned from so many sites that I don’t know whether to be impressed or horrified. She is known as ‘The Queen of Anecdata’ on two blogging platforms. Her biggest claim to fame (ironic considering all of the “ABLEISM” screaming she does here) apart from complaining about oppression by “breeders”, is that d/Deaf people are hideously disabled because they cannot run away from tigers.

    As for ‘artist’? Well, depends on your definition really.

  161. “Children have rights to life, identity, nationality, knowledge of and care by hir parents, self-expression, thought, conscience, religion, free association, privacy, access to health care, access to resources to allow children with disabilities to fully participate in the community, education, and leisure.”

    The nationality one stumps me. Does anyone have any insight into what it might mean? Children can pic and choose their nationalities at will?

    As far as “freedom of religion” – you can bet your bottom dollar that the religious right in the United States might oppose religious freedom of choice for their own children but they sure has hell support such a freedom in all those “heathen” and “pagan” countries they send their Christian missionaries too.

    Its currently a big problem in the country of India. Foreign Christian missionaries breaking up Hindu families. But in America they’ve got their “Focus on the Family” coalition.

  162. The nationality one stumps me. Does anyone have any insight into what it might mean? Children can pic and choose their nationalities at will?

    I’m guessing thats a reference to the relatively common practice of governments denying marginalized populations citizenship and national identity. Its a pretty common tool of political oppression. You can see an attempt at it in the US with the grumbling from the fringe about getting rid of birthright citizenship.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statelessness

  163. “I’m guessing thats a reference to the relatively common practice of governments denying marginalized populations citizenship and national identity.”

    I was born and raised in another country til the age of 5 but didn’t automatically become a national because of my birth there.

    The UN is going to have a hard time trying to force nations to change their laws on this. There’s a little thing called “soveriegnty” in the way.

  164. Cherry,

    Most nations have agreed to that term. Signing a treaty means you agree to do something. And with the UNCRC there is no enforcement mechanism other than shame (you have to file a report). Sovereignty as an argument would militate against all treaties.

  165. Doesn’t make sense, as someone born and partially raised in a South Asian country, should I be automatically be citizen of that country even though both of my parents are Americans? What if I don’t want to be automatically citizen of that country and I want to be automatically be a citizen of the same country my parents are?

  166. Donna: Well, in that case, the woman has to choose which cause she’s going to back. There are only so many things one person can fight for, after all.
    All: Maybe I have a limited imagination, but I see no way that ‘women’s rights’ and children’s rights’ can coexist. After all, one of the biggest gains for women’s rights movement was the right not to have a family.

  167. @Cherry,

    The treaty provides that you have to accepted by somewhere, not everywhere. Did you read the link William provided?

  168. All: Maybe I have a limited imagination, but I see no way that ‘women’s rights’ and children’s rights’ can coexist. After all, one of the biggest gains for women’s rights movement was the right not to have a family.

    Well, before a child is in existence the woman can do whatever she likes, and once a child does exist then it has to be dealt with and its needs met (which can include giving it up for adoption, I assume.) A woman is still free to not have a family if she chooses, she just can’t have one and then treat it like crap. So I’m not necessarily seeing a huge conflict between children’s rights and, say, abortion rights here.

  169. 1. Children have the right to privacy.

    So if a mom comes home to find her 12 year old son/daughter having sex with another 12 year old then she has no right to stop it?

    No parent is going to buy that.

    2. Children have the right to freedom of conscience, religion, and expression.

    Parents are not going to buy that their children have a right to “express themselves” through, say clothing, if the clothing is something the parent considers totally outrageous.

    These laws may get passed but culture trumps law most of the time, and sometimes for good reason.

  170. The right of association for small children could apply to nursing, relationships with siblings, and being allowed to interact with local kids the same age even if the parents don’t approve of the local majority.

  171. Bagelsan:
    All: Maybe I have a limited imagination, but I see no way that ‘women’s rights’ and children’s rights’ can coexist. After all, one of the biggest gains for women’s rights movement was the right not to have a family.

    Well, before a child is in existence the woman can do whatever she likes, and once a child does exist then it has to be dealt with and its needs met (which can include giving it up for adoption, I assume.) A woman is still free to not have a family if she chooses, she just can’t have one and then treat it like crap. So I’m not necessarily seeing a huge conflict between children’s rights and, say, abortion rights here.

    I am not sure that ‘child’ refers to one whom is born, rather than one whom is conceived, in all countries. Yes, this is something to work on, but every country but 2 has signed on, we must work now with the state of the law as-is, the situation(s) we are in now, yes? SO: then what?

  172. Cherry Soda:
    Doesn’t make sense, as someone born and partially raised in a South Asian country, should I be automatically be citizen of that country even though both of my parents are Americans?What if I don’t want to be automatically citizen of that country and I want to be automatically be a citizen of the same country my parents are?

    Good point!

    Side note: this reminds me of then-US presidential candidate John Kerry’s wife Teresa Heinz Kerry, who was born and raised in South Africa, mentioning to a largely African-American audience that she was either ‘actually African’ or ‘more African’ than they were (I think in an attempt to empathize ‘so as a fellow person with African roots I understand’ or something, which did not go well).

  173. Cherry Soda:
    1. Children have the right to privacy.

    So if a mom comes home to find her 12 year old son/daughter having sex with another 12 year old then she has no right to stop it?

    No parent is going to buy that.

    2. Children have the right to freedom of conscience, religion, and expression.

    Parents are not going to buy that their children have a right to “express themselves” through, say clothing, if the clothing is something the parent considers totally outrageous.

    These laws may get passed but culture trumps law most of the time, and sometimes for good reason.

    And about your second point, it’s something that keeps being mentioned around here – that money is necessary for things like expression, association, etc. And this is usually said as a bad thing. BUT if a child wants to express self by flying a banner from an airplane – Who is to pay for it? I just can’t see how this type of treaty wouldn’t mandate that the child COULD do this and yet, the airplane pilot and banner company must be paid, yes? I can see parent(s) on the hook for many of a child’s ‘expressive’ moments regardless of whether the parent(s) could afford to pay! And we don’t want to return to debt penury. But, unless you’re 18, you can’t contract in the US, so unless this treaty gives the right to contract to those under 18, parents are safe….I have a sinking feeling it may do just that though. I read it when Kristen J put up the post but haven’t re-read it in the time since.

  174. I can see parent(s) on the hook for many of a child’s ‘expressive’ moments regardless of whether the parent(s) could afford to pay!

    Thats…not generally how rights work. I know that it can get muddy once we start talking about positive verus negative rights, but the rights you’re focusing on (privacy, conscience, expressions, association) are historically constructed as negative rights. That means they’re restrictions on power and authority.

    I have the right to freely associate, but if I want to associate with someone 1200 miles away I can’t ask the federal government to pay for my plane ticket. I’ve got the right to keep and bear arms, but I can’t write off the cost of a shiny new Browning on my taxes. All extending these rights to children means is that parents would be similarly restricted from interfering with the rights of their children. They don’t owe those rights any subsidy, but they cannot try to actively prevent the expression of these rights.

    Lets take expression. A kid might want to say “fuck broccoli!” If they have freedom of expression their parents cannot ground them for saying “fuck broccoli!” nor could they force the child to eat broccoli. At the same time, they don’t have to pay for a skywriter.

  175. @William- Thank you. I appreciate your explanation. I guess I was just coming from the perspective of: parents, in most situations, are financially responsible for their kids, and that they get food water shelter clothes etc. Additionally, parents often have to pay for the bad things their kids do, e.g. a child who breaks into the school and smashes all the computers (this happened when I was in high school) may result in the child’s parents having to pay fines, take the child to any court appearances (loss of work time, gas money, etc.), furnish the child with a suit and tie to wear in court, lawyers’ fees, etc. In some places, parents are fined for their child’s criminal behaviors or even for their child violating curfew or for cutting class. (Wonder if the child can say ‘fuck school’ and not have to go, just as the child can say ‘fuck broccoli’ and can’t be forced to eat it?)

    And this parent-child relationship is pretty unique. While two married people, for example, choose to marry one another and do have some converging financial liabilities, this is part of a – a ‘duty of care’? is that the right phrase? – that these two people freely join into. The child has no such duty of care towards the parents, for example, doesn’t have to pay mom’s speeding ticket.

    So: I guess I was just wondering how this legislation may increase fines and liabilities is all, and my query was spurred on by recent legislation to fine parents of children who don’t attend school, i.e. are truant (and not homeschooled or enrolled in another educational institution.)

  176. @bhuesca,
    Does that really fit though? I mean freedom of expression does not mean anyone can do whatever they want. And it doesn’t mean fining and imprisoning parents. I’m not sure where these ideas come from.

  177. So: I guess I was just wondering how this legislation may increase fines and liabilities is all, and my query was spurred on by recent legislation to fine parents of children who don’t attend school, i.e. are truant (and not homeschooled or enrolled in another educational institution.)

    I can see that concern but…I’m not sure its an important one yet. Anything might have unintended consequences, but if you believe rights are non-negotiable then I’m not sure the consequences should be part of the discussion around people getting basic human rights. Yeah, its possible giving children human rights might mean that some parents have to shoulder extra costs that they might not afford. Its possible that innocent people will lose their lives as a result of a right to keep and bear arms. Its nearly guaranteed that a lot of people will go through significant emotional distress as a result of free speech. Free association all but guarantees that a riot will happen at some point. These are the costs of rights and we accept them because the alternative is monstrous.

    If we believe children are human beings, and that all human beings possess certain inalienable rights, I’m not sure that a discussion about the consequences of those rights can have any purpose other than to stand in the way of those rights. Real human beings are facing real oppression based on what ifs.

  178. So if a mom comes home to find her 12 year old son/daughter having sex with another 12 year old then she has no right to stop it?

    Unless the kid is a sociopath, in which case the mom has bigger problems than this, no kid is going to blithely carry on fucking once his/her mom has walked into the room. Would you?

    If what you mean is, shouldn’t the mom have the right to stop sexual contact between her kid and the other kid in the future, then no, I don’t think she should, and I can’t imagine how she would without it being a violation of the kid’s rights (you’re twelve and you’re never allowed to hang out alone with a friend again? that’s some asshole parent behavior right there.).

    Parents are not going to buy that their children have a right to “express themselves” through, say clothing, if the clothing is something the parent considers totally outrageous.

    And yet, children and teens acting out through clothing is a long and venerable tradition that shows no signs of stopping. Given that clothing can’t actually hurt anybody (I suppose repeated wearings of horribly high heels are an exception), no, I don’t think it’s reasonable to block kids’ freedom of expression around it. I don’t think it’s reasonable to force a kid against his/her will to wear something she/he doesn’t want to, or to take something off (especially to take something off) that she/he doesn’t want to. Again, how are you going to enforce this, if you are a parent? Search your kid’s closet and throw out clothing of which you don’t approve? Never let your kid have his/her own money, as he/she could spend it on clothing of which you don’t approve? Search all bags your kid brings into the house? Because I do think that all of those things are unreasonable and an infringement on your kids’ rights.

  179. I’m really, really sorry, but I’ve just got to play the part of grammar troll here.

    Children have rights to life, identity, nationality, knowledge of and care by hir parents…

    I understand wanting to use a gender-neutral pronoun here (although I still prefer singular they to the multitude of substitutes), but it’s completely wrong. To make it clear, I’ll make the subject non-neutral and simplify it a bit: “Girls have rights to care by her parents.” The subject quantity mismatch becomes a little jarring like this.

    But other than that, great post. I certainly agree that children need to be allowed to exercise their rights, especially fundamental ones like freedom of expression. I’ve seen way too many examples of people being given permission to censor or punish students simply because the school was acting in loco parentis.

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