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Don’t you hate it when…

This is a guest post by Dr. Buckshot Rackoribs. Dr. Rackoribs is the chair of the Male Studies department at Miskatonic University.
Photo of a cat giving the finger, with the text "If I hads a middle fingers, you'd be seen' it"

A bit of intro:
When I read “Don’t you guys hate it when…” linked by Feministe last Tuesday, I couldn’t help imagining that lurking behind that really, really long sentence was the infamous Privilege Denying Dude himself. After all, the author seems to have decided to ignore not only reasonable standards of punctuation but also any notion of how his coffee-shop amour might feel about his advances (and subsequent retreat). In an effort not to be privilege-denying myself, let me say that I realize I’m not entirely qualified to be inside the head of this (or any) woman. The sketch I present here is a purely imaginative exercise– a fictional speculation as to what might have been going through the head of our French friend while she was being accosted.

Don’t you hate it when…

… for the umpteenth time, some random guy musters up the nerve to talk to you in the hipster coffee shop where you go to get in some relaxing reading time, because he thinks you’re “cute,” but not too “hot” to be off-limits to him and he starts talking to you and he seems remarkably willing to assume you want him to join you there despite the fact you’ve met only moments before, and you laugh uncomfortably, but at least he’s making a good-faith effort to look into your irises instead of down your blouse, and you can’t think of what to say so you mention you noticed him chuckling to himself earlier, which strikes you as sign that he’s either easily amused or possibly unstable, and when he shares what he was laughing about earlier, you realize he’s not crazy, just pompous and self-absorbed, and you laugh, too, because it would be rude to just get up and walk away, and he asks where you’re from and you tell him your family’s from Toulouse, and his blank look tells you he has no idea where that is so you explain that it’s in the south of France, and he asks if it’s near Monte Carlo, and before you can explain that isn’t really at all, he launches into a story, which means that now, for the thousandth, irritating time in your life, you have to listen to someone talk about the prince of Monaco, even though this is like telling a story about the time you saw Bill Clinton on the street in New York City to someone who lives in Toronto, but he seems to have already slid into it without a backward glance, awkwardly cramming it inside the conversation in a way that makes you realize he must be terrible in bed, since he seems much more interested in going through this performance than in whether you actually give a shit, so you giggle self-consciously and think “please shut up!” and look at him in that incredulous way, trying to remember if the story isn’t actually just the plot of the James Bond film you saw last week on late-night TV, until he finishes, and you can’t think of what to say so you tell him what an amazing story that was the same way you used to tell your ex what a mind-blowing orgasm you’d just faked, and he tells you “I know,” and then, with the end approaching closer now, you both start to get up to leave, and in your head you start anxiously worrying why he’s staring at you like an entomologist staring at a butterfly he’s about to collect and his cocksure manner is starting to get more than a little wearisome, and you’re thinking to yourself how wonderful it would be to meet someone who could see you for more than just an exotic romantic fantasy dreamgirl, some auburn-haired Audrey Tautou, since just because he knows you’re French doesn’t mean he knows anything about you at all, and why can’t you meet someone articulate, smart, interested in more than just your looks or your passport, but this guy you would hesitate to even take home to your apartment if things were ever to get that far with him (which deep down you know they won’t, and deeper down you worry that you’re going to have to find a new coffee shop), and then, after all this, as the conversation is going down in flames and you are staring into your now-tepid coffee, agonizing over each passing second, with only a few words separating you from the bidding him adieu and taking your interrupted book someplace else — after all this, you both stand up, and it turns out you’re 3 inches taller than him, and the look on his face, surprised and creeped-out, you look at the floor and even though he’s kind of an ass, you feel judged, and then you feel crummy for letting that bother you, and just because being shorter than a woman makes him feel insecure doesn’t mean you should let yourself feel like some kind of freak, but it’s hard not to when every guy you meet can’t imagine being seen in public without being able to put his arm around your shoulders, and you look back at each other (him up from your chest, you down at him), and you awkwardly, finally say that it was nice meeting him, and he smiles and agrees, but before he’s even done agreeing, you’re turning away and walking out of the coffee shop to finish your damn book in peace?


100 thoughts on Don’t you hate it when…

  1. See, this reminds me of the time that I went to the coffee shop and I decided to make a move on this German girl, based completely on the fact that I know how to speak German coherently with a seven year old and only in the present tense, but in any case, I figured that I’d start out with some sort of segue-way involving a dirty joke because I know they like that and since they’re way less prudish than us, I know I’d succeed but in any case I ended up babbling like some kind of sixteen year old drunk for the first time and vying for the title of most obnoxious and tactile drunk person ever, which meant I literally did grab her shoulder oh-so-delicately at least three times and I wasn’t sure whether it was appreciated or just tolerated but in any case what little courage I had was about to desert me altogether so I tried my best to say a competent goodbye in German though I may have actually said something else altogether and she looked way more disappointed than me, or at least uncomfortable.

  2. That was awesome! And as a woman who likes shorter guys (I can be the big spoon!), I don’t see why the woman being taller is inherently a dealbreaker in heterosexual relationships anyway.

  3. a) I love this piece and want to have its internet babies

    2) ozymandias – Yes to being the spoon! Though, you can definitely be the big spoon and be shorter…

  4. This is the first I’ve felt moved to comment here, I am a longtime reader. This piece, this narrative, stream of consciousness (aside from being relevant and moving) was great stuff, Donald Ray Pollack great, Sarah Kane great. Please, whoever wrote this, keep writing. It hits you right in the chest like good writing should.

  5. Ozymandias, I would think it would be hard to find dudes who are not only shorter and cool with being the smaller spoon, but also are okay with the prospect of the lone and level sands stretching far away …

  6. @ozymandias – Wow, I never even considered that. I love being the big spoon, but my ex was really ridiculously tall and it was impossible for my to be the big spoon without getting a face full of shoulder blades. I’m dating a shorter guy now, and while we haven’t quite reached the spooning stage yet, I am now confident that it is going to be awesome.

    (Off-topic? Yeah, probably.)

  7. Bravo, bravo! And an extra 1000 internets to the talented author because, while I am not French, this is pretty much exactly how it feels to be chatted up by a doofus in a coffee shop. (Some days your ovaries just aren’t up to the task of saying bluntly, “Excuse me, I’m not interested–go away.)

    @Brett : This is probably weird, but I actually kind of like nuzzling into a face-full of shoulder blades (which happens any time I’m the big spoon, as I’m so damn short). Maybe it’s because I find scapulae so gorgeous… ^_^

  8. humanespresso: (Some days your ovaries just aren’t up to the task of saying bluntly, “Excuse me, I’m not interested–go away.)

    Ah hell, if only that made some of them actually go away! I once had a guy follow me into a bar and continue to hit on me after this exchange:
    him (out of no where after just introducing himself to me) – I would totally date you.
    me – That’s great. I wouldn’t date you.

  9. I notice a couple of the commenters read this parody and thought it was wonderful writing, yet almost everyone hated Nick Pedersen’s original even though it was a similar stylistically – by design.

    Also, as I maintained on the original thread, this misses the point. I think it is a mistake to read anything into Pedersen’s writing other than it being a story about a man who faces a common response to his short stature. It is very plausible that a man could engage a woman in this manner with her actually being interested in him *until* he stands up and she sees that she is several inches taller than him. Plenty of men and women alike have had these things happen to them. Only the most attractive of either sex have never faced the harsh reality that people we wish we could date aren’t as attracted to us for some superficial reason. Why can’t Nick Pedersen feel the same way and relate his own story?

    I just don’t get it.

  10. Simple tricks for the beleaguered:
    1) “I’m reading. That means your talking at me is a distraction I don’t have time for.”
    2) Ignoring. Blank stares. Pretending your cell phone just rang and faking a conversation into it. Excessive, continual texting. Ipod.
    3) Speak French.

    Suggestions for improving the rewrite:
    1) A heroine who glares more and giggles less.
    2) Acknowledging that some of us don’t go to coffee shops full of sad wishes about meeting better people. We go there to read.
    3) A more incisive model of tall-lady-empowerment.

  11. Chuck, this parody is taking the piss out of Pedersen’s run-on sentence. That is what people here liked.

  12. Sheelzebub,

    a couple of commenters up above who probably didn’t read the original piece, acted as if this was wonderful writing. namely comment #6 and #10.

    contrast that with the response on the original thread where everyone hated the man’s writing. either that or the people who liked the writing were less than motivated to express that opinion on a feminist blog.

    point is, what if Dr. Rackoribs wrote his/her piece before Nick Pedersen did? Rackoribs has a legitimate “beef” or “complaint” about a prevalent social phenomena. I feel that too many read Pedersen’s piece just looking to have a dialectical opposition to it. Truth is, Pedersen is a short man who has short man experiences. Thus, he writes from that point of view. I just feel that Feministe’s beef with Pedersen’s op-ed was over-the-top and made mountains out of molehills.

  13. Chuck, given that Dr. Rackoribs is from good ol’ Miskatonic University (home of the fighting fish!) I think it would be more appropriate to suggest that women mutter “Tekeli-li! Tekeli-li” than French.

  14. Chuck: Sheelzebub,a couple of commenters up above who probably didn’t read the original piece, acted as if this was wonderful writing.namely comment #6 and #10.contrast that with the response on the original thread where everyone hated the man’s writing.

    Dude, it’s the parody/jokey CONTENT, not the style specifically that people like here. If every post on Feministe was suddenly written this way, it’s not like people would be lauding the wonderful writing skills of the authors. People like how well this parodied the original, because the stream of consciousness of the original was so ridiculous and out of place.

    Similarly, most liberals like Stephen Colbert because he mocks right wingers, not because he sounds like one and we like what they sound like. When O’Reilly says some douchey RW shit, we hate it – when Colbert parodies him and says similarly douchey RW shit, we like it because it’s funny and a good parody of that is something we can appreciate.

    And if you STILL don’t get what the deal was with the original, I’m not sure what else people can say. To many of us, it seemed clear that it was Pedersen that had the problem – “Oh no, she’s taller than me” – after objectifying the crap out of this woman and treating her like some special little French doll or something that he could take home and put on a shelf. And maybe, just maybe, this woman had no real interest in him to begin with, as this post posits – I’m sorry to inform you that many many men out in public seem unable to tell when a woman does not wish to speak to them, and they take every single tiny thing we do as clear and strong flirtation…or they just don’t give a shit because if they want our attention, they’re going to get it whether we want to give it or not.

  15. Seriously, Chuck (or, as I am beginning to think of you, Nick Pedersen?), this is not a Vagina Hive Mind, or whatever it was you were expecting a feminist blog to be. We are not the Borg – we are free to have unique and contradictory viewpoints and to take the piss out of each other as we like. joycejames and humanespresso are not obliged to express anyone’s views but their own, and their views do not dictate anyone else’s.

  16. Chuck~ Have a little faith in commenters #6 and #10. I think they DID READ THE ORIGINAL. Heck, mentioning the CHI-TRIB OP-ED is the very first line of the new version. Maybe you cannot read sarcasm in #6 (but I like to call her by name: JoyceJames)?

  17. Chuck, dude, seriously. If you can’t grasp the UBER simple concept that the original writer is an absolute, disgusting, privileged hypocrite for whining about being supposedly turned down over his height after OBJECTIFYING THE SHIT OUT OF HER….then there’s no hope for you. I don’t know where you get off thinking that attraction being based on the physical is a good jump off point to be thought of and treated like a collectible item.

    I read the original and got so angry I couldn’t comment. I’ve gone through something similar, being objectified for my exotic Frenchness. Not just by men, but by anglos who treat you like a sideshow….that “oh say something FRENCH!” moment that I dread. Mange la merde tends to work nicely…..

    It’s fucking French too, you’d think that people would be used to it.

  18. I think it’s sad that anyone needs an explanation as to why people might like this parody but not the original.

    You may want something more suited to your intellect. See Spot Run, perhaps?

  19. … why can’t you meet someone articulate, smart, interested in more than just your looks or your passport …

    So, he did not look at your breasts, but you looked at his?

    Quaint.

  20. Dominique: I think it’s sad that anyone needs an explanation as to why people might like this parody but not the original.You may want something more suited to your intellect. See Spot Run, perhaps?  

    I lolled. So true.

  21. Chuck:
    Sheelzebub,
    a couple of commenters up above who probably didn’t read the original piece, acted as if this was wonderful writing.namely comment #6 and #10.
    contrast that with the response on the original thread where everyone hated the man’s writing.either that or the people who liked the writing were less than motivated to express that opinion on a feminist blog.
    point is, what if Dr. Rackoribs wrote his/her piece before Nick Pedersen did?Rackoribs has a legitimate “beef” or “complaint” about a prevalent social phenomena.I feel that too many read Pedersen’s piece just looking to have a dialectical opposition to it.Truth is, Pedersen is a short man who has short man experiences.Thus, he writes from that point of view.I just feel that Feministe’s beef with Pedersen’s op-ed was over-the-top and made mountains out of molehills.  

    I’m sorry chuck. Based off of what I’ve seen of this thread there is little hope for your opinion. I will construct a small shallow grave for your charred remains and send whatever is left of your flamed-out belongings to your family. Can I have your stereo?

  22. Lovely parody.

    When reading the original, all I could do was roll my eyes.

    When reading the parody, it was flashback city to all the times something similar has happened to me.

  23. *A stylized account of Chuck’s demise*

    Inside the tomb the air was cold and musty. Fear stirred within the heart of the lone adventurer. In one hand he held a torch, in the other a sword of gleeming steel. But nothing that he held, nay, no armor or sword or shield could protect him from what awaited him in that rotting sepulchre – that ruin of cold stone and twisted flesh.

    As he descended the dusty steps toward oblivion a distant chanting begun. The words were indistinct like the ominous whistle of the wind through the trees of a forgotten forest. The words hissed and probed at the man’s mind.The adventurer ,Sir Chuck as he was called, shivered and not for the chill in the air that night.

    Sir Chuck stepped down from the stone steps into a massive vault lined with coffins and the skeletons of ancient heroines and heroes.

    Once his eyes adjusted to the torchlight, he stood transfixed in horror: 13 cloaked figures encircled a wide pit lined with human skulls and mummified body parts. The chanting grew louder. The skulls began to chatter and wail. The sounds clawed at the inside of the knight’s brain, bringing back memories of wars of flame and fire ; of gigantic cats that stalked the land for morsels of pulverized meat.

    “NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!” – shouted Chuck as he leapt toward the pit.

    But it was too late. The hooded figures – the necromancers as they were called in this land, had succeeded. Out of the pit climbed a monstrosity made of tattered papers covered with glowing curses and blasphemies. The Un-thread raised its vile head and strangled Chuck, the foolish knight, into lifelessness.

    From then on bards would sing again and again of the tale of Chuck – the foolish knight. What a fool he was, to attempt to challenge something that he knew so little about.

    “What a fool… What a fool… What a fool…” they would whisper to the crackling of the mantels and fireplaces that framed their stories. “What a fool… what a fool… what a fool…” they would sing in taverns and pubs while the people danced and ate their lives away. “What a fool… what a fool.. what a fool…” the wind would whisper as it passed over the dust of all human civilization, until the end of time itself.

  24. Question: what IS the appropriate way to hit on somebody in a coffeeshop?

    ’cause, you know, some of us are single and go to ’em….

    1. I’m single and I go to coffee shops. Here are some hints if you see someone in a coffee shop you feel like talking to:

      -Make eye contact three times (don’t stare, just glance their way). On the third time, smile. See if they smile back.
      -If they don’t smile back, let it go.
      -If they do smile back, go say hi and start a (brief!) conversation.
      -If the conversation goes well, ask for a phone number.
      -If they seem uncomfortable, let it go.

      Point being, read the basic body language and responses of the person you’re talking to.

  25. Jill: I’m single and I go to coffee shops. Here are some hints if you see someone in a coffee shop you feel like talking to:

    Well, back in ye olden days…and its been awhile so this may be weird, but I always appreciated/used: “Hi, I’m ____. I don’t suppose you’d like to share a table….” or something to that effect. ‘Cause you know…asking in a way where you indicate you won’t take any offense if they say no is typically non-annoying.

    1. Yeah, Kristen J, that works too! My problem with that is that a lot of women (myself included) are socialized to be Really Really Nice all of the time — if someone asked to share my table, I would say yes pretty much no matter who they were. It’s a little perverse, and in an ideal world we could just all be up-front about whether or not we’re interested, but that’s really difficult for a lot of women. So unfortunately, the reading-subtle-social-cues thing is crucial, and I do think that men shoulder the greater burden of being sensitive to those cues, because they aren’t socialized in the same be-nice-always way, and if they’re hitting on women, they have some responsibility to understand that a woman may be polite without actually being interested.

  26. RD:
    Not to imply that I like your opinion in the other thread at all.  

    No implication taken. Thanks for the compliment.

  27. Jill: My problem with that is that a lot of women (myself included) are socialized to be Really Really Nice all of the time — if someone asked to share my table, I would say yes pretty much no matter who they were.

    Alas, I must have skipped that day in woman school. If you ask me for money, I’ll likely give it. If you ask me for information, I’ll find it. If you ask me for gum, I’ll share it…But don’t expect my attention. Except in very rare instances people are less interesting than what I’m reading/working on/daydreaming about space. 🙂

  28. Miss Nobody: Question: what IS the appropriate way to hit on somebody in a coffeeshop?’cause, you know, some of us are single and go to ‘em….  

    Thanks. I wondered that myself. Not because I am single (I am not) or have any desire to hit on people in coffee-shops (I do not), but because somebody remarked that “some of us go there to read.” I was under the impression that people don’t go to hip coffee shops to read, they read in hip coffee shops to get picked up, and choose reading material that they believe will attract hip people. This, I am informed, is the reason that kid has been reading ‘The Stranger’ for six months but never gets any further along in it.

    Are such coffee shops genuinely populated by elegant sophisticated women who summarily reject men that they previously found utterly enchanting when they realize that the man is short? I am short and never realized I had such a convenient scapegoat for my social failings.

  29. You know, the two times I went out with a guy who I met in a coffee shop or bar, I had an okay time, but never saw them again. I thought they were cute, they seemed to think the same thing about me, but we had zero in common.

    You’ll do much better to meet people by doing the things you like doing (where you’ll meet people who’ll have that in common with you), doing things that express your values (which will put you on the path to meet people who share those values) and through friends (who are more likely to share your taste in friends and so you’re more likely to have stuff in common with their friends). That’s how I’ve met people I’ve dated long-term. Not by hanging around in a coffee shop or a bar, hoping to pick someone up/get picked up.

    /derail

  30. Miss Nobody: Question: what IS the appropriate way to hit on somebody in a coffeeshop?’cause, you know, some of us are single and go to ‘em….  

    Like Jill said, reading body language is a good way to go. If, after testing the waters and jumping in, there’s not enthusiastic participation in the conversation by the person being hit on, I’d let it go. Someone being polite shouldn’t necessarily be taken as encouragement.

    Another important thing — currently working employees of the establishment are off limits. They’re paid to smile and be nice.

  31. Sheelzebub: You’ll do much better to meet people by doing the things you like doing …. Not by hanging around in a coffee shop or a bar, hoping to pick someone up/get picked up.

    butbutbut, I like drinking lots of coffee and beer! (not at the same time natch)
    I am dating a bartender though so results may vary 😉

  32. Excellent parody…loved it because it so accurately skewered/skewed the original, hated it because it does sound too familiar. I go to cafes to work…I have to write a lot of papers and grant proposals and I can’t focus at home (I end up tidying up, which is never appealing unless I have writing to do) and I get interrupted/hijacked at my office, so I hole up with some good coffee, my headphones (usually not on, just in my ears), and have banged out a lot of sterling work in the cozy atmosphere of my favorite coffeeshops. I don’t go there to meet people and I don’t want to talk, so I tend to sit facing the wall, pile papers and books around me and my laptop, and give clear body language that says “I’m in the middle of something…don’t bother me.”

    As an aside, I’m tall and my partner LOVES tall women. We trade off being the big spoon 🙂

  33. I would prefer a guy give me his number, rather than ask for mine. That way, if I am not interested, I don’t have to make some number up, or say no – it gives me the power to initiate the next conversation, and I like a man that is not hung up on keeping that power for himself.

  34. I feel the same way with women. I am a rather attractive guy and get tired of women throwing themselves at me. I mean gain a little self respect for pete’s sakes! If I wanted to talk to you I would send you the gift of a smile and talk to you first.

  35. Jill: I’m single and I go to coffee shops.Here are some hints if you see someone in a coffee shop you feel like talking to:-Make eye contact three times (don’t stare, just glance their way).On the third time, smile.See if they smile back.
    -If they don’t smile back, let it go.
    -If they do smile back, go say hi and start a (brief!) conversation.
    -If the conversation goes well, ask for a phone number.
    -If they seem uncomfortable, let it go.
    Point being, read the basic body language and responses of the person you’re talking to.  

    I think its all well and good to criticize the man in the original articles lack of awareness of privilege, but the flip side is to recognize the privilege at the root of these steps: assumptions about and of normative “neurotypicality”, and the necessary social environment one would need to be brought up in to read and act upon the aforementioned cues.

  36. Grafton,

    I’m one of those people who hangs out in coffee shops particularly when I’m drafting something that requires the creative side of my brain. I need noise but not interesting noise, coffee, a muffin, sunshine and a bathroom. I used diners before the starbucks evolution.

    I’m constantly amused by the people who don’t notice that I’m not really paying any attention to the people around me. If a person has a computer, notebooks, half a muffin, a vague look, and hair held back by a coffee stirrer they probably don’t know you’re there and aren’t interested.

    Then again, back in the 1720s when I went to college I used to get hit on most when I was working on calculus problems…which supports my thesis that math is sexy.

  37. Kristen J.: I’m constantly amused by the people who don’t notice that I’m not really paying any attention to the people around me.

    Yeah I think that’s the biggest clue. Sometimes I’m open to talking with people in a coffee shop or bar, sometimes I’m not. The biggest tell is if I want to talk, I’m doing more people watching than reading whatever book I have and if I don’t, my eyes never leave the pages (or screen in the case of watching a game at a bar… don’t get me started on guys who can’t believe a woman would possibly be more interested in a cold beer and the game than whatever they have to say).

  38. Well, Sid, I’d prefer not to be accosted in public by guys who are other than “neurotypical,” thanks very much.

    I mean, if a guy finds Jill’s steps so onerous and oppressive because he just happens to fall outside the range of accepted “neurotypicality,” then perhaps he should be out looking for a good behavioral analyst or cognitive therapist, instead of trolling coffee shops for random pickups and phone number scores.

    Radical, I know, but just a suggestion there.

  39. Mezosub: Well, Sid, I’d prefer not to be accosted in public by guys who are other than “neurotypical,” thanks very much.

    I mean, if a guy finds Jill’s steps so onerous and oppressive because he just happens to fall outside the range of accepted “neurotypicality,” then perhaps he should be out looking for a good behavioral analyst or cognitive therapist, instead of trolling coffee shops for random pickups and phone number scores.

    Radical, I know, but just a suggestion there. Mezosub

    Do you even know what neurotypical means? This comment is so screamingly ableist that I kind of hope that you don’t, but even then it’s not much of an improvement – you seem to know just enough to be gross about it.

  40. Jadey: Do you even know what neurotypical means? This comment is so screamingly ableist that I kind of hope that you don’t, but even then it’s not much of an improvement – you seem to know just enough to be gross about it.

    Repeated for emphasis.

    Sid,

    That’s a really good point. Thank you for sharing it.

  41. Didn’t read the first piece. I actually tend to be pretty dumb about quoting and all, didn’t realize there was an original. I’ll read it now!

    Chuck: I notice a couple of the commenters read this parody and thought it was wonderful writing, yet almost everyone hated Nick Pedersen’s original even though it was a similar stylistically – by design.Also, as I maintained on the original thread, this misses the point.I think it is a mistake to read anything into Pedersen’s writing other than it being a story about a man who faces a common response to his short stature.It is very plausible that a man could engage a woman in this manner with her actually being interested in him *until* he stands up and she sees that she is several inches taller than him.Plenty of men and women alike have had these things happen to them.Only the most attractive of either sex have never faced the harsh reality that people we wish we could date aren’t as attracted to us for some superficial reason.Why can’t Nick Pedersen feel the same way and relate his own story?I just don’t get it.  

  42. Kristen J. —

    Math is sexy.

    I see your point. I imagine lots of people have that need for non-intrusive noise or simply live somewhere that makes it hard to work. I imagine diners, with their bigger tables, would be more effective than hip coffee-shops, but probably location is everything.

    Sid and Jadey. Thank you.

    I’m a little autistic. I can see myself doing the things described in both parody and original, except at the end I wouldn’t be thinking, “Waaa! I am short!” but, “Oh dear. I totally didn’t realize I was bugging the hell out of her. Oops.” (Also: except I hardly ever approach people, and especially not in situations where it’s hard to find an excuse to get away from them, and I have never thought, “she’s cute, but not too hot that she’s out of my league,” which strikes me as a really weird thing to think.)

  43. Mezosub —

    No therapist can teach me to read your body language. This doesn’t make me an asshole. If you said, “Sorry, I’m busy,” and I persisted in demanding your attention, that’d make me an asshole. If you refuse to say that and instead resent me for not understanding your unspoken desire that I fuck off, and in fact resent this failing of mine so much that you go around telling people that men like me don’t deserve social contact or romantic relationships, you are a bigger asshole than if you just said, “Fuck off, freak,” which also works.

  44. I mean, if a guy finds Jill’s steps so onerous and oppressive because he just happens to fall outside the range of accepted “neurotypicality,” then perhaps he should be out looking for a good behavioral analyst or cognitive therapist,

    Aside from the ablism and basic lack of human empathy here, you don’t know what you’re talking about. First, applied behavioral analysis is expensive, questionably useful, and deeply problematic for a variety of reasons. Second, cognitive therapy, aside from having the same problems behavioral analysis has, isn’t designed to teach people how to read body language. That just isn’t what it does. That would be like asking a deaf person to go to a speech therapist because you think they mumble.

    Creepy guys hitting on you and not getting the message? Really shitty. Kicking around the disabled because you’re angry at creepy guys? Pretty fucking shitty too.

  45. I was lost right at the beginning of this piece. I am thirty, live in a big city, and have never been hit on by a stranger in entire my life. Every time this conversation starts, I get the feeling that I live on a completely different planet. I can’t even imagine what it might be like to have a person of the opposite sex take an interest in me, welcome or not.

  46. Mezosub: Well, Sid, I’d prefer not to be accosted in public by guys who are other than “neurotypical,” thanks very much.I mean, if a guy finds Jill’s steps so onerous and oppressive because he just happens to fall outside the range of accepted “neurotypicality,” then perhaps he should be out looking for a good behavioral analyst or cognitive therapist, instead of trolling coffee shops for random pickups and phone number scores.Radical, I know, but just a suggestion there.  

    Mesosub: As someone who is female and has asperger’s and ADHD, I want to amplify what Jadey, Grafton, William and others have said: Your comment is profoundly ableist, and I doubt that you even know what the term “neurotypical” means. Asperger’s is an autism-spectrum disorder which *does* make it hard for us to read social cues and body language; it has *nothing* to do with being male or male privilege. As other commenters have said, if we ain’t picking up the subtle clues, “Fuck off” will work – I personally have no desire to be an asshole.

  47. Kung Fu Lola: Wow. I thought I was the only one.
    I occasionally get approached by random Hispanic guys, but they usually just want to say hello. I think I project an invisible ‘fuck-off’ field to other men. And I’d actually find it really odd if someone approached me.

  48. Very nice parody.

    Regarding the whole interested/not interested thing: I have an issue with this a lot. I’m a fairly social person who tends to enjoy conversation. So if another person approaches me in a coffee shop, I’m fairly likely to be willing to engage in conversation simply because I like talking. I have been accused of being a tease so many times because of this. I enjoy the conversation, but I’m not interested in getting into a relationship. A lot of guys feel that if a woman is interested in talking to them, she must be interested in fucking him.

  49. you have to listen to someone talk about the prince of Monaco, even though this is like telling a story about the time you saw Bill Clinton on the street in New York City to someone who lives in Toronto,

    LOLOLOLOLOL!

  50. You know, as soon as Jill brought up body language I was bracing myself for autism to be brought up. I wasn’t expecting it to take that form, though.

    Mezosub, your comment was so profoundly ableist I am boggling. Boggling.

    On the NT-privilege front, I’d like to point out that it’s not exactly pleasant for autistic women in this kind of situation – it can be difficult to work out that the guy is expecting Something More out of this encounter even from things that would be blatant for NT people, it can be difficult if you don’t want to have this conversation but signalling your disinterest politely involves subtle social cues you can’t manage, and there’s the additional issue that randomly approaching an autistic person in a loud environment may set off task-switching issues, routine break issues, social anxiety, sensory issues or similar (for me there are times where being approached by a random stranger would put me five steps closer to meltdown). I’m sure other autistic women on this thread can contribute more; it just annoys me that it seems like anytime people talk about NT privilege regarding this stuff it’s always “but what about the poor autistic men who can’t read social cues as to when their advances aren’t welcome?!” and the autistic women who have to fend off unwelcome advances are ignored.

    I’d also like to go YES, THIS to all of Sunset’s comment. In certain situations I will very much be up for a friendly chat with someone in a coffee shop (although in others really no no no leave me alone.) I am, however, not straight and in fact not attracted to men. The idea that any kind of friendly chat with a strange guy MUST be a prelude to sex and/or romance and dating is just too disgusting for words.

  51. “it just annoys me that it seems like anytime people talk about NT privilege regarding this stuff it’s always “but what about the poor autistic men who can’t read social cues as to when their advances aren’t welcome?!” and the autistic women who have to fend off unwelcome advances are ignored.”

    Kaz, thank you for bringing this up. Since something like 80 or even 90% of people with Asperger’s are men (including myself) it can be really easy to forget about the challenges of women who have it. I try to educate myself on gender issues as much as I can but this is an angle that I admit I have never thought about before. All of the other people with Asperger’s that I have met (at least that I know of) are men and it’s hard for me to even begin to imagine what it would be like to live as a woman with Asperger’s, considering the ways that too many men mistreat women.

    Personally, I am not sure what I could contribute to any further discussion on this topic, but it is definitely something that deserves further discussion either on this blog or elsewhere.

  52. @Kaz–THANK YOU. Non-neurotypical women also have to deal with these things. As women they have to put up with the idea that men are entitled to their space, company and their time. As non-neurotypical women, they are at fault for not navigating the intrusion well. It’s creepy and frustrating that this gets erased.

  53. Sunset:The idea that any kind of friendly chat with a strange guy MUST be a prelude to sex and/or romance and dating is just too disgusting for words.
    Which pretty much explains why I try not to talk to men and haven’t had a male friend since high school. Most times when I’m out and about, I clamp headphones to my ears and project ‘a don’t f with me field.’ It’s worked so far.

  54. Bravo!

    When I read the original post I was immediately reminded of a number of exchanges where a man’s only interest in me was my Brit/Scot accent and my (dyed) red hair. Even if they don’t actually state out loud “I just love Scottish women!” it’s pretty easy to spot them. Some of them have actually said that, it boggles my mind that anyone can think that stating you fulfill some kind of stereotyped fantasy check-box they want to add to their list is a compliment!

    The worst encounter I had involved a man on the street inviting me for coffee because I had red hair, and when I declined (and told him I was spoken for) resorted to following me to a grocery store, through the store, and along the street until I hailed a taxi so he wouldn’t get to see where I lived.

  55. Kaz: it seems like anytime people talk about NT privilege regarding this stuff it’s always “but what about the poor autistic men who can’t read social cues as to when their advances aren’t welcome?!” and the autistic women who have to fend off unwelcome advances are ignored.

    Yes.

    Really, this seems the more significant problem. Even if there are a great many more autistic men than there are autistic women, the numbers of autistic men who approach strangers are pretty low. As I said, I can see myself doing the obnoxious behaviors in the article, except I never would have started the behavior-chain by making the judgment about the woman’s approachability and approaching.

    I think it’s the same problem, though — women are socialized to do deference and be indirect, right? So it is against the rules for them to respond to an unwanted approach with “Sorry, I am busy, please go away,” or the like. I understand that women who do handle things this way are at greater risk for social sanction or violence. This means that in order to field an unwanted approach, an autistic woman has to figure out how to give subtle unspoken social cues to signal her disinterest politely. That is really difficult, and it is not something I can usually do when I am startled by an unwanted approach. It also means that an autistic person approaching a woman has to decipher these cues, and that’s also hard.

    The sucky thing is not women as a group being unsympathetic to the advances of autistic men (for one, they’re probably not, and for two, why should they be sympathetic?) it’s that women are socialized, and bullied, and threatened, into adopting a communication style that autistic people cannot read and autistic women cannot easily deliver.

    In a better world it’d just be okay for women to say, “No, I’m busy,” and for that to be honoured without the rejected person getting into some sort of rage-tizzy about it.

    Kaz — I possess a pin-back badge that has nothing on it; blank white. A guy who makes autism ‘pride’ ones with one of those home badge-a-minit machines made it for me on my request. The plastic cover holds transparency marker very nicely, and wipes off with a damp towel. When I am feeling non-verbal I sometimes write ‘No Soliciting’ on it and then tap it when people try to talk to me. I speculate that this behavior, which is ‘quirky’ in me, might be ‘bitchy’ in you but it’s a thought. It is a very helpful button.

  56. While I’ve never been diagnosed with a spectrum disorder, I don’t do subtle… never have. I don’t get subtle cues and I don’t send them. As a science fiction fan, I’ve been in many, many situations where there are overwhelming numbers of guys in comparison to women, and I’ve been hit on a lot… and it can be devastating or at least extremely depressing to realize that a guy you thought was your good pal was actually only ever after getting in your pants, because he drops you like a hot potato after you get a boyfriend.

    But outside the milieu of science fiction fandom, I find that I don’t, in fact, suffer much from random unwanted male attention, and didn’t when I was young and hot either… and I did this primarily by a, not paying any attention, b, being obviously distracted by something else, usually a book, and c, answering men in monosyllables if I could be bothered to answer them at all. This isn’t advice everyone can use, and some women who’ve employed this technique have gotten hurt from it, but I do have anecdotal evidence that the average man *is* capable of noticing that a woman has zero interest in him… as long as she is willing to *not* do what women are put under enormous social pressure to do, and care about whether she’s coming across as a cold bitch or not.

    I am five foot zero, not physically intimidating, and I used to use this technique when I was 18 years old and 98 lbs, and it worked. I’m not saying that every woman can or should use such a technique and I am *not* blaming women for being victimized by men in public, but I am offering my experience as a counterbalance to demonstrate that if a woman wants to use that technique, it *is* possible for it to work and it *is* possible for it to not result in men shooting you or following you home… so my personal recommendation is, if you can stomach completely ignoring people, and you have a hard time with the subtle cues, try it.

    It doesn’t work with science fiction fans or other male geeks, but if you’re not in that community, they will probably not even try to talk to you, and if you are, at least you can have a decent conversation with them.

  57. You know, when MissNobody posted her question about approaching people in coffee shops, I was vaguely interested in the extremely unlikely hypothetical event I try to socially engage someone in a coffee shop (the last time I did that I opened with, “Excuse me, are you autistic?” which didn’t go over so well).

    Jill’s answers weren’t accessible to me but I kind of don’t expect that since I imagine most people reading this would have an idea of how to use that. I think everyone else has already covered Mezosub’s shitty ableist remarks so I won’t add anything except to say that this is part of the reason why autistic and other disabled people have such stigmas against sexuality. The message that you’re undesirable and unwanted is enforced from a young age.

    I am a little curious about the other perspective though–what’s wrong with an autistic woman simply bluntly telling someone she’s not interested in him? Or a Neurotypical woman, for that matter? Why isn’t this allowed?

  58. “I am a little curious about the other perspective though–what’s wrong with an autistic woman simply bluntly telling someone she’s not interested in him? Or a Neurotypical woman, for that matter? Why isn’t this allowed? “

    I’m not sure what you mean by “allowed”. Some of us don’t do it because it can be downright bloody dangerous, or ‘just’ because we don’t want to spend the rest of the day amped up on bad adrenaline from being yelled at that we’re a fucking fat ugly bitch who couldn’t get laid anyway.

  59. @alara – “While I’ve never been diagnosed with a spectrum disorder, I don’t do subtle… never have. I don’t get subtle cues and I don’t send them”

    Same here. My partner, when we first met, was convinced I wasn’t interested in her. I can’t pick up social cues, or give them… oops. Apparently I practically broke her heart. It took a drunk friend of hers leaning against me and saying “So whaddya think of her? She really fancies you” for me to say “Oh she’s really lovely, wait.. she does?”

    He went into the ladies and dragged her out of there (I think she was pondering an exit through the window due to her ‘failure’) and practically threw her at me, while shouting “Just snog her!” at my lass-to-be.

    When she explained later that she thought I wasn’t interested because of the way I’d acted I felt hurt for her, and for myself. Who knows how many potential whatevers had thought I was cruel and heartless! I just hope there isn’t a trail of crushed hearts behind me!

  60. I am a little curious about the other perspective though–what’s wrong with an autistic woman simply bluntly telling someone she’s not interested in him? Or a Neurotypical woman, for that matter? Why isn’t this allowed? Shaun

    What Lauredhel said. I’ve been screamed at and threatened when I didn’t give men the time of day or when I’ve been blunt. And was told by onlookers that it was my fault for being such a bitch and that I should have been flattered that a man was paying attention to me.

    In this culture–heck, in most patriarchal cultures–women are not allowed to determine how to spend our time or energy. There aren’t official laws about it, but you do catch serious blowback if you step outside the gender norms, and in some situations, it can be dangerous for women to do that.

  61. Shaun: I am a little curious about the other perspective though–what’s wrong with an autistic woman simply bluntly telling someone she’s not interested in him? Or a Neurotypical woman, for that matter? Why isn’t this allowed? Shaun

    Shaun, go read my comment at 11. I straight up told a man I wasn’t interested in him and he still followed me into a bar and continued to hit on me. He didn’t turn vocally or physically violent (although that has happened to me in the past) like lauredhel and sheelzebub pointed out often happens, he just straight up didn’t listen to my clear, unambiguous refusal of his advances.

    Sometimes bluntness works, sometimes it doesn’t, and we never have any clue how the person hitting on us will take our refusal of them.

  62. Grafton: When I am feeling non-verbal I sometimes write ‘No Soliciting’ on it and then tap it when people try to talk to me. I speculate that this behavior, which is ‘quirky’ in me, might be ‘bitchy’ in you but it’s a thought. It is a very helpful button. Grafton

    heh, I might steal that idea myself Grafton! I can almost guarantee I’ll be called “bitchy” for it but thankfully I no longer give a shit about stuff like that.

  63. Groggette, I think I missed that comment the first time I read through. Interesting. So this doesn’t happen to me because I’m male. I thought it was just something NTs didn’t do. It sounds like a really unpleasant additional level of social rules to work around. :/

  64. Thanks to everyone who dealt with the hateful pile of ableist hate – I was quite enjoying the comments ’till I hit that, but you lot have perked me right back up! I’m downright cheerful now!

    Even if there are a great many more autistic men than there are autistic women…

    I possess a pin-back badge that has nothing on it; blank white. A guy who makes autism ‘pride’ ones with one of those home badge-a-minit machines made it for me on my request. The plastic cover holds transparency marker very nicely, and wipes off with a damp towel. When I am feeling non-verbal I sometimes write ‘No Soliciting’ on it and then tap it when people try to talk to me. I speculate that this behavior, which is ‘quirky’ in me, might be ‘bitchy’ in you but it’s a thought. It is a very helpful button.

    I often wonder if so many autistic males are actually diagnosed because this is a generally accepted fact; whenever I hear about the male majority I can’t stop myself from wondering if it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. It’s bad enough that ASDs, and especially Asperger’s in my experience, presents very differently in girls than in boys, but then you add on that we only ever hear about boys having it, so no one ever thinks to look for it in girls, even when it’s totally obvious, and boom! There really are more autistic men! So why look for it in females, etc.

    Anywho, I am stealing that badge idea. I’d much rather be called a bitch to my face on a non-verbal day than have to deal with someone, handle it badly, and be called a bitch behind my back. For some reason most of the tippies I know are way cooler about understanding that I was having a bad day if I didn’t actually talk to them; whereas if I say one thing wrong my assertion that it was fueled by, well, anything other than my being a horrible horrible person is suspect because I said it in the first place. Ugh.

  65. @ Kaz

    Again, thank you for this. I’m not autistic, but I’m also not neurotypical (long and complicated story of no interest to anyone who doesn’t know me personally). Over the years, I’ve managed to get myself into some pretty upsetting and sometimes dangerous situations via a combination of having very poor skills re: determining when someone is sexually interested in me and a shit-ton of socialisation to *smilesmilebenice*, participate in conversations I’m not particularly interested in, etc (a lot of which, ironically enough, was installed by well-meaning people who tried to encourage me to act more NT when I was younger).

    I would definitely like to second the suggestion of a blog post on the experiences of neuroatypical women navigating the patriarchy.

    1. Actually, I’ve been meaning to post on this article for a while now, which I think is really interesting, but I keep going back and forth on it and haven’t sorted my thoughts out enough to actually write something. But it’s milling around in the ol’ brain.

      And if there’s anyone who wants to write a guest post, you can always email us.

  66. Niveau, one of the genes associated with autism/AS is on the X Chromosome. It’s not an exclusively X-linked trait, but it still means a female has to have a copy on both of her X’s, while a male only needs one. As far as diagnosis rates your point still holds, though, because regardless of ACTUAL prevalence it’s easier to get a diagnosis if you look like the kind of person they think has it (ie, a white male). Autism may be 4 times as common in males than females (I’ve seen studies indicating as many as 11 times), but if you’re one of those females it’s still harder to a diagnosis.

    Interestingly women are disproportionately represented (in my experience) in autistic advocacy, and are often believed to be less severely affected, on average, by autism (this is actually a really contentious subject and I’m giving a super-abbreviated version for a reason). There are some scientists who believe this is because females are inherently less affected (a double-edged sword if there ever was one) for biological reasons. In my opinion, though, if these differences exist they’re social, just because girls are encouraged to communicate more. There is a tendency not to look at other aspects of autism too, and I’ve never (anecdotally) noticed a difference in how autistic females’ sensory processing functions in comparison to males. In other words, I haven’t noticed that autistic women are inherently less bothered by loud noises than autistic men.

    I also wonder if autistic women are necessarily more socially functioning or if it’s just that the dissonance between their actual and expected behavior is less noticeable than with autistic men, but it’s not like we get to control the research.

  67. I have added to my zazzle ‘store’ “I am not here to entertain you.” I believe this will prove useful when, upon reading “No Soliciting” some wanker asks you why you’re such an unfriendly bitch.

    Also, “I am not here for your viewing pleasure.” In honour of a friend of mine who spends a bit too much time repeating this phrase to people who demand that she smile, dress differently, diet, etc etc.

  68. Grogette: I’m used to experiencing things from an ableist (and some other intersections) perspective. One of these problems is navigating the seemingly hundreds of contextual, unreliable social rules everyone else seems to play by. It interests me how autism intersects with other isms and how other autistic people might have more (or fewer) rules to follow on top of that. I usually have neurotypical women compare their experiences to me, it was interesting to think about what kind of experiences an autistic woman might have, navigating ableism and sexism in this way.

  69. Jill: Actually, I’ve been meaning to post on this article for a while now.

    The comments section there is a big pile of ugh. Some of it’s full-out fail and some of it’s just written in a totally patronizing tone, and most of it just makes me shudder a little inside. Why are people such asses?

    Grafton: LOVE LOVE LOVE those. Am so buying myself one. Or several. Thanks!

  70. @shaun,
    Ok, I was just confused because I gave an example of an unambiguous “NO” not working (because the guy was an asshole, regardless of whether he was NT or not) and then you mentioned additional social rules after that. For full disclosure for you, I’m like Scarlett in that I’m non neurotypical yet not on that autism spectrum.

  71. Shaun: I also wonder if autistic women are necessarily more socially functioning or if it’s just that the dissonance between their actual and expected behavior is less noticeable than with autistic men, but it’s not like we get to control the research.  

    I think some of their actual behavior is less noticeably different from expected and some more so. I suspect that in early childhood, a lot of it is expected (“shyness,” meltdowns, sensory issues on the “over-sensitive” end) and a lot of autistic women transfer seamlessly from shy, demanding little girls to “icy bitches.”

    It is also remarkable (and irritating) how many people come up with instant and misogynist explanations for the behavior of a female aspie friend of mine, while similar behaviors in myself are more likely to be recognized for what they are.

  72. Interesting discussion, which has sort of enlightment to a struggle many women face. Whenever I see a women act or smiley and nicey to a man that’s obviously bothering her and who she’s not interested in, I wonder we she doesn’t bluntly tell him that he’s annoying her. I never considered that there it could be potentially dangerous for her to do so.

  73. Of course, being all smiley and nicey to a guy you’re not interested in is in fact even more dangerous, because then they think you want to do it with them and either blow up and accuse you of “leading them on” or outright try to rape you once you do end up telling them you don’t…ya can’t win, huh? So might as well just be a “bitch” and tell them to fuck off!

  74. What wonderful advice Sarah. Of course, some of us did that and got harassed and/or assaulted–then blamed for being a bitch.

    As you said, we can’t win. Lectures about what we should do or might as well do therefore aren’t particularly helpful.

    Thing is, men don’t have to worry about this–not to the extent that women do. Men aren’t culturally obligated to share their time, space and energy with those they aren’t interested in doing so with. Women are. Odd how that point is so often missed.

  75. Sheelzebub: Thing is, men don’t have to worry about this–not to the extent that women do. Men aren’t culturally obligated to share their time, space and energy with those they aren’t interested in doing so with. Women are.

    Seriously. It irritates the shit out of me whenever my guy friends tell me I should find it a compliment when they’re never consistently bothered in public and thus have no basis for comparison.

    Yeah. I seriously find it super complimentary that you think you know how I want to spend my time better than I do.

  76. @Judybrowni – I’ve used the “No thank you” one a lot too. It’s pretty interesting how well it works actually, even when it doesn’t really make sense (“May I have your phone number?” – “No thank you”), and it’s easier than coming up with a more topical response, because I already have it programmed in, as it were. It *feels* polite to say, but it’s unambiguous.

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