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Unreality and the politics of experience

Have you ever been in this situation? You share something that happened to you, something that affected you, something that you can’t get off your mind, and the person you’re telling your story to sits back with a pensive expression. And you start to feel a minor dread. And then… ‘are you sure they meant it like that? It wasn’t a misunderstanding? Are you sure that’s what happened?’ Or, even if they believe you, ‘was it really that bad?’

Well, yes. That is a good portion of my life. And it’s a bizarre experience because the person in the best position to speak about their own experiences and emotions is the person who has them. And, personally, I find the desire to go over horrible experiences with a fine tooth comb, tease them out, decide – retrospectively, calmly, objectively – on an appropriate response, (an appropriate reaction is whatever I judge to be appropriate, thank you very much) to add a whole new sickening layer to what I experienced. And then there are those demands for more details and irrelevant details and painful details, because whoever is “listening” thinks they get to decide what’s important.

I think this starts from the automatic, often subconscious, assumption that the person higher in the social hierarchy is more trustworthy. Marginalised people just can’t be trusted, because they’re probably, uh, biased by their marginalisation so are probably exaggerating. Supposedly the person who has benefited from their privileges has no bias in the matter at all, and all the insights. It’s always this person who gets to wear the objectivity cap – after all, they’re not being unfairly biased by their identity politics agenda and their niche experiences.

Not so much, no.

A few months ago, I published a post called Memory, about the events surrounding a racist comment that was directed at me by a teacher when I was in high school. I didn’t specify what the comment was, nor my reasons for not specifying it. You should read the conversation that ensued in comments; here I’ll just say that there were some that asked that I post what was said so that readers could evaluate the appropriateness of my response and those of other people in these events. These were comments that took place even after multiple reiterations that my pain was not going to be exacted to the satisfaction of voyeurs. For the purposes of this post, I want to highlight what Queen Emily (of the truly marvellous Questioning Transphobia) said:

The point isn’t WHAT the teacher said and evaluating from your own perspective. It’s not Chally’s job to put together for you a handy-dandy guide to not saying racist shit.

Part of the problem is that as a non-white woman Chally is often going to be considered unreliable, disreputable even. So the point is not whether YOU consider something racist, but whether you can listen to her tell you a story and put aside your own privilege(s) and believe her when she says that it was.

And, in a comment further down the thread, Queen Emily continues:

Marginalized people tend not to have our privacy respected much, and it is definitely possible to have a discussion about racism and sexism without violating people’s boundaries.

So, yes, it wasn’t my intention with leaving the comment out, but what doing so achieved is that a lot of people didn’t get to control and shape and dictate my response. They had to approach my experience through my own responses and memories and such, hence the demands that I do divulge what the racist comment in question was. And isn’t that just privilege to a T? Folks who are privileged in a particular instance usually get to control these narratives, and when that power is taken out of their hands, they don’t acknowledge the entitlement in asking that they have that power, the power to alter people’s understanding of experiences of marginalisation, back.

I’m reminded very strongly of something the Scottish psychiatrist R. D. Laing (whose work I must admit to not being hugely familiar with) once said:

Jack may act upon Jill in many ways. He may make her feel guilty for keeping on “bringing it up.” He may invalidate her experience. This can be done more or less radically. He can indicate merely that it is unimportant or trivial, whereas it is important and significant to her. Going further, he can shift the modality of her experience from memory to imagination: “It’s all in your imagination.” Further still, he can invalidate the content: “It never happened that way.” Finally, he can invalidate not only the significance, modality, and content, but her very capacity to remember it at all, and to make her feel guilty for doing so into the bargain.

My friend T.R Xands and I were talking this over, and she got me thinking about how personal narratives aren’t taken very seriously; one has to adopt an academic or formal style to have a sheen of objectivity. The thing is, objectivity is impossible – and right here, undesirable, because there is value to personal narrative. As Xands said to me, on the other side of the narrative you’re encountering from the outside, there is a human being, and there is human cost with your response.

It costs one a lot to put out a personal narrative – be that for public display, as I do all the time in my writing and in my life more largely, or even one-on-one with someone you trust. There is a cost. Have a little respect when someone shares.


161 thoughts on Unreality and the politics of experience

  1. I maybe have gotten a comment like “Was it really that bad?” once or twice in my life, but if it happened all the time from different people I would have to wonder if I actually was making a bigger deal out of it than it deserved. I’m not saying that you are about any of your situations though. I tend to be more calm about things, and when I share an injustice done to me or that I witnessed somewhere else, I am always hearing friends going, “Omg how can you handle that without going crazy?!” But then I will tell someone else the story and they will just be like “…and?” It’s wierd how differently people react to things.

  2. Couldn’t agree more, Chally. This is an incredibly well-written post with an extremely important point.

    Also, I was nodding so much while reading this that my neck has begun to hurt. 😛

  3. I love this post. For the longest time, my response to constant questioning about or dismissing of my pain was to either not express it, or to always question and minimise it myself before I subjected it to public view: everything was being muted because I was applying not my own measure of suffering, outrage, oppression but the measure of the (privileged) people around me. It’s only recently that I’ve stopped doing this and I know I don’t have to say, some people don’t like it.

    “Personal narratives aren’t taken very seriously”… funny how those who seem least inclined to take personal narratives seriously are the ones whose personal narratives most closely represent those that are already told and retold by the dominant culture.

  4. I remember that earlier post, because I remember being astonished by the requests that you explain what you’d said. I had a strong but slightly blurry sense of just why that seemed so wrong, and you’ve strongly clarified it here.

    And now I’m thinking of all of the “narratives” put out by more privileged people, and how often those go unquestioned.

    It often seems that whoever appears more “objective” wins. Sound even slightly emotional, and you lose, because you’re too sensitive, overemotional, unable to comprehend the situation clearly. Women, therefore, being emotional little creatures according to the patriarchy, are automatically less objective than men, who are always eminently reasonable and therefore right.

  5. this is why i ended up cutting all ties with almost everyone i knew in undergrad: because so many people who knew both me and the guy who raped me did exactly what you describe in the first paragraph. thank you for writing this.

  6. I think a good reason personal experiences are discounted in discussions is because they bring with them rules and complications that other sources don’t. When you tell a personal story that has obvious and explicit political/social/etc meaning, it is natural for people to want to respond to that in much the way they’d engage a less personal point. But if it is personal, then any honest debate and analysis becomes an affront. Which prevents any critical thinking and shuts all discussion that isn’t “you’re right” or “oh” down.

    If you’re sharing a past experience just to share a past experience, that’s very different than bringing it into a conversation. And I think people aren’t always clear on which of those two things the teller is attempting.

  7. I’ve cut off one long-term friend because of a three hour conversation of this nature in which she just. would. not. listen to me, and had to tell me how to respond to what I had read.

  8. Great read, esp in light of the discussion going on on the Bitch, PhD thread. Thanks for writing this.

  9. Chally, thank you for this post.

    @Ashley: Wow, that was a sensitive first comment. “Was it really that bad?”, seriously? I’m curious, because perhaps your experiences are different from mine, but have you ever felt anything other than dismissed and belittled when someone says that to you? Of course it was that bad; Chally said so.

    IMHO, it’s helpful when your mate points out that you may be “overreacting” to someone showing up late to your party. But telling someone they’re overreacting when they say they’re hurt by racism, that is, hurt by being told they are a less of a person? Not so helpful, and not so respectful.

    Chally, I’m glad to read your posts here.

  10. I submit an alternate explanation. Since the dawn of language, there has been exaggeration and embellishment. When people relate stories of conflict, they often have a tendency to try and show themselves in the right, and the opposition in the wrong. The discerning listener or reader learns to try and detect these distortions. When a story as it’s told doesn’t add up to them (regardless of whether it was told truly or not), they might voice doubt.

    I didn’t read your earlier post, and I’m not making this comment about anything in particular. But when you tell a story I don’t think it’s unreasonable for people not to believe your version unquestioningly.

  11. Dank: But when you tell a story I don’t think it’s unreasonable for people not to believe your version unquestioningly.

    This would be an awesome point if everyone everywhere were equals, but I, as a white chick with lots of white privilege, have no place second guessing someone’s experience of being the target of racism. Sure, I would love to know more, but suggesting that I can glean some piece of information from a target of racism that un-victimizes them is absurd. That’s what this post is about: people of privilege trying to tell unprivileged-folks that their experiences are irrelevant and that they (we) know better.

    The entire world is not a game of Sarah Palin-style Gotcha, and if that is the norm, then we need to change it.

  12. I think a good reason personal experiences are discounted in discussions is because they bring with them rules and complications that other sources don’t. When you tell a personal story that has obvious and explicit political/social/etc meaning, it is natural for people to want to respond to that in much the way they’d engage a less personal point. But if it is personal, then any honest debate and analysis becomes an affront. Which prevents any critical thinking and shuts all discussion that isn’t “you’re right” or “oh” down.

    The question is whether or not this is really honest debate and analysis or just more of the usual gaslighting. Like, if I say “I experienced some nasty transphobia today,” and I am talking about something that I have experienced at some points in my life on a daily or weekly basis, does it do any good to debate that this one time it might have been something else? At what point does a series of events (allegedly unrelated) become a trend? At what point are people who experience racism, sexism, and the like expected to defend these experiences?

    And what about white people who interrogate whether racism really happened, cis people who question transphobia (as happened to Queen Emily on Feministe), able people who question ableism? Thin people who question fatphobia? All of these things happen in Feministe comment threads, you know?

    And white people benefit from racism being seen as anything other than racism. It prevents any kind of awareness or accountability for their actions. Cis people are the same wrt transphobia, straight people and homophobia, and so on. There are real social pressures to keep these things going to maintain them at the expense of living people and pretend that they are “just the way things are.” Is it possible to have the kind of conversation you are talking about, an “honest debate” when it’s pretty clear that the people trying to have that debate are invested in shooting down the idea that oppression happens?

  13. Dunk: I submit an alternate explanation.

    Isn’t it just amazing how some people can read a blog post on one effin’ irritating behavior born of privilege, and then repeat the behavior exactly in a comment to the blogpost? Privilege-check, Dunk.

    Lisa: I’ve cut off one long-term friend because of a three hour conversation of this nature in which she just. would. not. listen to me, and had to tell me how to respond to what I had read.

    The problem with that kind of behavior is that you have to realise if they act like that, they’re not being your friend.

    If they realise what they did when you have to cut them off, and apologise for being hurtful, sometimes they can go on being your friend. But you don’t want to have to keep doing that… because consistent hurtful disrespect means they were never really your friend. Which sucks.

  14. Dank, the misogyny and other isms in your post is appalling. How dare you question people? When someone tells you something, you accept it no questions asked.

  15. Lisa Harney:
    Is it possible to have the kind of conversation you are talking about, an “honest debate” when it’s pretty clear that the people trying to have that debate are invested in shooting down the idea that oppression happens?  

    Yes.

  16. Jesurgislac: Dunk: I submit an alternate explanation. Isn’t it just amazing how some people can read a blog post on one effin’ irritating behavior born of privilege, and then repeat the behavior exactly in a comment to the blogpost? Privilege-check,

    I don’t think everyone would agree that critical thinking is a sign of privilege.

  17. One right I feel should be intrinsic to all is this: You are entitled to feel what you feel. The diminution of how one feels about an experience is incredibly damaging, because doing so implies (or outright states) that how you feel is wrong.

    When it comes to feelings, there is no right or wrong. You feel what you feel. That is your right. And if sometime down the line you decide to change the way you feel, that’s also your prerogative.

    When you’re telling someone about your personal experience, it is not their place to pass judgment.

  18. rice: I don’t think everyone would agree that critical thinking is a sign of privilege.  

    Invoking a history that can’t be disproven (SINCE THE DAWN OF LANGUAGE, THERE HAS BEEN HYPERBOLE) may not be a sign of privilege, but it’s definitely a sign of being a pompous prick. [Since the dawn of language, there has been alliteration. Prove me wrong, Chally]. Other pompous prick signs: saying “here’s what I think” without actually reading why this conversation is happening.

  19. rice:
    I don’t think everyone would agree that critical thinking is a sign of privilege.  

    Right on. For example, I think it’s the presumption of the total intellectual vacuum that existed here until you came along and reminded us to be rational and honest critical thinkers and shit (wow, thanks) that’s the real sign of your privilege.

  20. rice:
    I don’t think everyone would agree that critical thinking is a sign of privilege.  

    You ableist bigot! Hang your head in shame.

  21. Erin: When you’re telling someone about your personal experience, it is not their place to pass judgment.

    Oh, I think it’s fair to say that they can pass judgement. (With appropriate caveats about what friends do and say to each other when they’re in distress.)

    But what they cannot say – or should not: is “You did not feel like that about your experience.”

    Which is what we’ve all experienced (except of course for privileged folks like Dunk & Rice) at some time or another. We’ve been told either “No, you could not have felt like that”: or just plain “No, the experience you report having happened, couldn’t have happened.”

    If you’e going to tell someone “Your reported first-hand experience couldn’t have happened to you” you had damn well better have some strong, fact-based supporting evidence to justify your assertion – or be questioning something that is, according to ordinary science, physically impossible. You do not use that kind of language for something that is perfectly possible, you just don’t want to believe it because you don’t want to believe that kind of bigotry still exists and happens to your friends.

    “No you couldn’t have felt like that!” is aeons worser: but it still happens.

  22. I used to have experiences like this with my (white) ex. I’d tell him about some racist thing a white person did, and he’d be like, “Maybe they were trying to be friendly!”

    Which, if you’re trying to make me feel better about the situation,try saying, “I’m sorry that happened” instead of suggesting my first-hand experience of the situation is flawed.

    Or, I’d talk about my experience coming into his white family as a black foreigner and we would get upset because his family couldn’t have acted that way and couldn’t have made me feel that way. He couldn’t even hear me talking much less acknowledge that I was right.

    Every single time I tell a story of something happening, and some white person spins made up reasons out of my real interaction as to why the person who they don’t know, and have never met couldn’t possibly have said something racist or fucked up, and this is how I should have taken it, I want to explode.

    It’s like, dude, why are you trying to protect the white stranger instead of sympathise with the actual brown person in front of you? Investigate that.

  23. Jesurgislac: But what they cannot say – or should not: is “You did not feel like that about your experience.”

    I dislike “You should not feel that way,” and think it’s just as inappropriate. Who cares if I shouldn’t have felt a certain way? I did. You know?

    To apply it back to the privilege-marginalized dimension, if I were to tell a person of color that they shouldn’t be angry about a given racial incident, that’s pretty fucked up too. Why do I get to be the arbiter of what you should or should not feel?

    What do you think?

  24. Ok, here’s a thought experiment:

    I recently read an article on the internet. I thought it raised a compelling issue, but I disagreed with the author’s conclusion. I posted my thoughts in the comments section. Later, I read some of the other comments. I was surprised and upset to find my thoughts viciously criticized and marginalized. I was called a mysogionist, and my ideas were dismissed as ‘privileged.’ All I wanted was to advance an argument, but now I had become some kind of villain.

    Now, should the rest of you accept my personal story? Are you going to accept that that was how it happened, or question it? Or are you going to tell me that I couldn’t have actually felt that way, and if I really do then I’m overreacting?

  25. By the way, I definitely do believe that privileged people doubt the experiences of marginalized people more than they should. I just think that it’s for a different reason than Chally does. She thinks that it happens because no one believes marginalized groups. I think that it is because their life experiences are so different, that the privileged people genuinely have trouble fitting those events into the way they view the world, and so find them unlikely.

    To go back to the classroom example, I never had a teacher whom I could imagine being deliberately racist to a student. So my first reaction to hearing that is surprise. Obviously, it really did happen, and the problem is with my personal lack of experience and perspective. The commenters who voiced doubt probably had the same problem. But they weren’t driven by an inherent disinclination to believe marginalized people. They were using a truth-determining algorithm that was too narrow to be effective in that case.

  26. PrettyAmiable: I dislike “You should not feel that way,” and think it’s just as inappropriate.

    Ditto. I mean 90 percent of this is just listening and being empathetic. If you partner comes home and says…”honey I had a lousy day…this dude at work called me a *insert derogatory remark* and my boss did nothing about it. They are such sexist assholes.” Ze is not looking for feedback. Ze is looking for empathy. Provide empathy and keep your other thoughts about to yourself or save them for when the empathy part is done.

  27. Dank, regarding your 8.51 comment, if you can’t engage in good faith, kindly leave the thread. Your comments being criticised is not equivalent with actual marginalisation. Maybe it would be a good idea to think through *why* folks who are privileged in a particular instance expect their life experiences to be universal, why they don’t have to learn those marginalised experiences yet marginalised people have to learn theirs, and why they feel comfortable challenging marginalised people in a way a marginalised person wouldn’t be socially justified in challenging them. These factors all feed into what I am talking about. Also, please don’t tell my readers what I believe. I think reading the earlier post/thread would also be helpful.

  28. great post. i’ve caught myself doing that minimizing thing before. if i’m doing it across a target/non-target group line, it’s mostly about my privilege. occasionally it also has to do with me struggling to just witness somebody’s pain without Doing Something. (my family of origin was big on the kids-take-care-of-the-parents’-emotional-needs thing.) it’s also good when i remember to ask: “advice, or sympathy?”

  29. Chally: Maybe it would be a good idea to think through *why* folks who are privileged in a particular instance expect their life experiences to be universal, why they don’t have to learn those marginalised experiences yet marginalised people have to learn theirs, and why they feel comfortable challenging marginalised people in a way a marginalised person wouldn’t be socially justified in challenging them.

    I love your writing and ideas. I have an internet platonic crush on you.

  30. @Chally, 9:24

    Yes, yes, I completely agree! My posts being criticized IS totally different than a real tale of marginalization. My feelings really were unjustified, and my account was grossly inaccurate. My point was that, when people complain about how the world has wronged them, sometimes (and only sometimes), they bend the truth to make their audience more sympathetic. We develop a system to detect this bending, a system that involves judging how well the story fits into our worldview.

    I completely agree with you that,

    … it would be a good idea to think through *why* folks who are privileged in a particular instance expect their life experiences to be universal..”

    because that expectation is the root of the problem you’re describing.

    But that isn’t the same as saying that their doubt stems from the belief that

    Marginalized people just can’t be trusted, because they’re probably, uh, biased by their marginalization so are probably exaggerating.

  31. Kristen J. is absolutely right that in a social conversation, very few people want advice, or any non-confirmatory feedback whatsoever, no matter how they approach the subject. They want validation and at least a tacit indication that the listener concurs with their viewpoint.

    Unless you are a professional who is being paid to give advice, the best response when someone asks for it is to bite your tongue. No matter how good you think your opinion is, it won’t be helpful in that situation unless it’s totally supportive.

  32. I’m really not saying that they are the same thing. And I’m aware that people sometimes modify what they’re saying to make what they’re saying more sympathetic, but can you see how you’re shifting the conversation into another place when we’re trying to talk about how privilege/marginalisation functions in responding to personal narratives? And that the whole angling-for-sympathy thing tends to get pulled out to minimise the concerns of marginalised narrative-tellers? I’m not saying people never exaggerate, I’m saying that pulling that out is not appropriate just at the present.

  33. She thinks that it happens because no one believes marginalized groups. I think that it is because their life experiences are so different, that the privileged people genuinely have trouble fitting those events into the way they view the world, and so find them unlikely.

    it’s the same thing, though. the privileged people don’t have to be twirling their mustaches and thinking “bwa ha ha, how shall i make the lives of the marginalized worse today?” to be doing something that is making their lives worse. disbelieving someone because you simply can’t wrap your mind around their experience is still disbelieving them.

  34. Personally, I feel that the value in sharing personal narrative is found inside those experiences not being hidden, shameful, unspoken, weighted by silence – invisible. I find that our collective knowledge, understanding and compassion is far more powerful in shifting culture than critical thought alone can provide. Our lives are stories, they are all created through language and words and experiences, including all our critical thought. Nice post Chally *appreciation*

  35. IMHO it may be because in the US, at least, there is the “Do you swear to tell the truth, the WHOLE truth, and nothing but the truth?” court-of-law that has been kind of ingrained through tv and court experience – the feeling that, if it’s not the whole truth and open to questioning, it’s not the truth at all – that many may feel almost as an instinctive habit…

  36. Chally: And that the whole angling-for-sympathy thing tends to get pulled out to minimise the concerns of marginalised narrative-tellers?

    More importantly…WHO CARES!?! If someone is seeking empathy…if you give a shit about them…give them empathy. Who cares if they exaggerate to get it? They are probably only doing so (if they are doing it consciously) because they’ve been denied emotional support (by you or someone similar) in the past.

    Moreover why do you need to judge whether someone is *worthy* of your empathy. Are they a sentient creature? If yes, then empathize. (If no, then anthropomorphize…oh, wait, no that’s not right…) Saying “I hear what you’re saying and I’m sorry that you’re experiencing something painful” doesn’t cost you anything.

    Okay, so maybe everyone doesn’t agree with this particular philosophy of [trying to] empathizing with every sentient being…but if you care enough about a person to read and comment on their blog or listen to their stories…then presumably you already think they are worthy of empathy….so stfu and empathize.

  37. It’s taken some time to get my head around this, personally. On the one hand, there are those screaming hissy fits I have after spending too much time with my Japanese clients (made all the worse because my husband does precisely what Chally is talking about here) and on the other hand, I’m a person who always encourages people to look for alternative explanations for the behaviour of others (and usually appreciates others doing the same for me). For me, at least, the way I understand this is that in the realms of the strictly personal, where the interactions are all about those people involved and nothing else, discussing other interpretations, looking at other perspectives, can genuinely lessen the pain. There can be injury felt where none was intended, and if what the person really cares about is the intention of the other person, then it can really help to realise that the first interpretation may not have been right.

    In contrast, when the hurt comes about because what the other person did was just another effing example of the same marginalising BS that you have to put up with all the time, the intentions of that person just don’t matter. No reframing is going to help, it’s only going to act to further push at that sore spot.

    Thanks Chally, that’s made a distinction for me that I’ve never quite been able to put my finger on.

    *wanders off and mulls some stuff over*

  38. Chally, I think there are some interesting points here but I have to side with Dank.

    I question people on their stories because I am a critical thinker and I happen to live with a sister who is a chronic exaggerator to the point of almost being a liar when she wants to make a story exciting.

    But I’m really with you on the concept that people immediately sideline your problems as soon as you show a hint of emotion – it’s almost as if being too close to the subject disqualifies you from being an expert – a strange paradox.

  39. Oh no, I think the server ate my comment! It was something along the lines of the following:

    I’m not advocating the suspension of critical thought but pointing to the trend of marginalised people’s stories getting disproportionately sidelined. Social justice definitely doesn’t entail the suspension of critical thought!

  40. When I was knifed at a train station. Everyone asked “What did you do to provoke them?”

    Not helpful.

  41. This happened to me yesterday – I was introducing myself on a forum about a linux distro. I mentioned that I was not a programmer, and a guy asked “So your brains are fried, and you can’t learn a programming language?” Another one asked “Then why do you use linux?”

    Well, I left that board at once, and asked another board on the same channel what to do in this situation. A guy there asked “So it was inconsiderate, but are you sure it isn’t true?”

    I know that this is nothing compared to Kim’s, and other people’s experiences here. I just wanted to put this on to say that this happens EVERYWHERE. I don’t know whether they assumed “Not a programmer” means “Can’t program” just because my nickname was feminine.

  42. Gah, I mostly get this in the context of visiting doctors to manage pain. I’m not sure I can explain here to everyone’s understanding/satisfaction, but… the power differential, it is So. Much.

    It’s literally a conversation with someone who has the power to help me, to refuse to help me, to label me a drug seeker, to make my life more or less bearable pretty much every day. (“Every day” would be an exaggeration, but around 70% of the time is a reasonable estimate.) Every time a provider doesn’t treat my experience with respect (which is a different thing than, say, recklessly prescribing medications left and right), it’s about $100 from my wallet and a month of my time to find a new one.

    So when a doc decides my “story” does not fit well into hir worldview (in which people claiming to experience pain largely cannot be trusted)? When a provider asks me, “Your pain, it’s not really so bad, is it?”

    That privileged disbelief and dismissal? It has some hardcore consequences for me.

  43. Thank you for writing this Chally.

    I think it’s really important to know who is being believed, and who is being ignored. Because it’s true, marginalised voices have a tendency to get, well, marginalised by those of us with privilege.
    And you know, it gets tiring. Constantly being asked to defend your experiences, to defend your feelings, is fucking exhausting.

    Those of us with privilege, and I include myself in this, need to fucking stop and take a fucking step back and listen.

  44. @prettyamiable
    I’m not sure how constructive calling someone a pompous prick is, especially when their point is essentially “it’s human nature to exaggerate, and consequently also to suspect people of exaggeration. Not that that’s always right or appropriate, but hey, it’s another explanation for why it happens.” Also, “here’s what I think” reads to me more as a way of prefacing something as just an opinion rather than Truth From on High, which seems the inverse of a pompous prick behavior.

    @EAMD
    I never made any such claims that a total intellectual vacuum existed here. That’s simply an easy way to paint a very unfair picture of me and tie in all sorts of nice, discrediting generalizations in lieu of engaging me in an honest discussion. I was merely pointing out that responding with an opinion to someone else’s opinion isn’t an inherent sign of privilege.

    There’s a very big difference between sharing a story with a friend in the expectation of them giving you empathy/support, and presenting a personal experience as anecdotal evidence to a point you’re trying to make about broader social issues.

    @Jesurgislac
    I’m glad you feel comfortable making such broad, sweeping assumptions about me, my life, and my experiences.

  45. Hmmm. This post is hitting home for me. I have a workmate whose behaviour has caused me great stress in the last few years and has reduced me to tears on occasions. He doesn’t yell or threaten or *overtly* bully. This is what he does: he has two modes. One – friendly, respectful, humorous. Two – Icy, hateful, vicious. Oh, there’s kind of a third – when I enter or leave the office and say Good morning / see you later, he doesn’t acknowledge, at all.

    I find his behaviour disturbing to the point where I relish the days he doesn’t come in, but if I described his behaviour to the higher-ups, there wouldn’t be really one point I could make to hang anything on him.

  46. This post is sort of like the story of my life. I don’t think that anyone can describe me as a marginalized person – but if I get a few drinks in me and begin to open up about the more colourful aspects of my past, people go weird on me. This happened a lot when I was living in North Carolina and going to private school. A friend of mine actually accused me of being a liar and claimed that “stuff like that only happens in the movies.”

    There are important aspects of our personal histories that we should be able to speak about without feeling the need to justify ourselves. If you’re in a position where you are constantly questioned, you can end up feeling as if you’re under a microscope – you’re unable to share. Certain recollections of mine have changed over time – especially after I discovered my old childhood journals from Ukraine, and realized that the past is stranger than I recalled it. When it comes to recollections of violence, I told my friend “he threw me across the room, I hurt my back,” for example – when I recently read that I’d actually had a head injury. Does this make me a liar? I think I just became confused over the years. I wanted to erase the memory, and as such, it grew somewhat formless in my mind – though no less painful or important to me.

    If you constantly must prove to others that you’re not exaggerating, that you’re not merely an attention-seeker – it’s a losing position from the outset. A lot of people have a sort of Supreme Outlook on Life – they’re better off than you are, and so they effectively get to decide, what’s truth and what’s fiction. Living in Russia now, I’ve never had a single Russian friend go bonkers of me over my descriptions of my past – because it doesn’t mess with their worldview, in fact, my stories confirm it. A child growing up in a wealthy American family in the South, on the other hand, how do they relate? They don’t. It’s understandable, but it doesn’t justify rudeness.

    I don’t mind being questioned, for as long as people doing it show basic respect. Denying one’s experience, or telling someone else how they should feel about this experience – is awful. And it’s also a way for showing someone else “their place.”

    …I think this starts from the automatic, often subconscious, assumption that the person higher in the social hierarchy is more trustworthy.

    Yes.

  47. Offering hugs to Tori, Helen and Natalia, if you want them.

    I’m going to sleep now and my time here tomorrow will be limited, so apologies if moderation is slow or if I am slow to respond.

  48. I remember reading that post and being so in awe of how you stood your ground to a teacher who had, in my opinion, utterly betrayed you with her actions and racism. I agree with you that often people’s experiences get silenced, even in supposedly safe spaces like feminist blogs.

    I often feel like I’m being told to shut up in this way. Your writing is a reminder that it’s not ok when people try to to make you and that it’s important not to stop speaking.

    Thank you for writing this.

  49. Generally speaking, I think this post is accurate, though I think there is some truth to what Denk says. Nevertheless, I don’t believe it’s my place to tell someone that their experience didn’t happen (this is relevant to me in my field of religious studies– I’m not going to tell someone that their religious experience DIDN’T happen, no matter how implausible it may seem– ultimately that person is the one that had it.)
    However, there is one set of cases where I think it’s not only permissible but morally necessary to say “you think it happened this way, but it didn’t”, and that is when letting the narrative stand unchallenged presents a danger to others. An interesting test case for this is vaccine rejectionism. Suppose a person believes that their child’s autism was caused by an MMR shot. This link is demonstrably false, and if her mistake is not corrected, then they could very well be putting other people’s lives in danger– any subsequent kids they might choose not to vaccinate, and then anyone those kids come in contact with if they end up becoming infected with a preventable disease. And this is not to mention the danger to other children if this person convinces their parents that the link in her narrative is valid.

    Now, has this person suffered? Unquestionably. And is this person part of a group that has historically had their narratives dismissed? If this person is female, or of color, or queer, or poor (all possibilities, though I get the impression, though I don’t know of any demographic data on it, that vaccine rejectionism is probably most popular among middle class white women) then yes, they are. These things cannot be ignored and should not be invalidated, but neither of them change the fact that the central part of this person’s narrative is factually incorrect, and that allowing it to persist unchallenged poses a danger to public health.

  50. I’ve basically dealt with this my whole life. I’ve had lots of weird health problems and crippling periods and my mom’s reaction has always been to say that I have no tolerance for pain (based on nothing) or to say I was making it up (in the case of illness). Then, when I was older and could go to the doctor, it turned out it wasn’t all in my head. But she still persists in both of these myths–both that I have no tolerance for pain and that I make up my health problems.

    Which is hilarious because … she’s that person–that serial exaggerator. You can hear it when she tells a story. Something in her tone switches as she senses you’re not impressed by her tale and she needs to add on more to it. If you call her out on it she throws a fit.

    But I’m the liar.

  51. Ugh, the most similar experience I had to this was dealing with sexual bullying from a fellow grad students (I define as bullying rather than harrassment since the guy in question is gay). After he finally succeeded in making me cry in public, his apology consisted of him telling me that his behaviour was normal, that i couldn’t possibly really be upset by what he said and that i had to just be stressed by work, and that if I couldn’t cope with what he considered normal ‘banter’ (that others in the lab had told him to quit saying to me several times previously, but they were ‘just out to get him any way they could’) then I should go to the doctor and go on medication to be able to cope. He also told me that he considered the subject closed after his ‘apology’ and my speaking of it to anyone would be considered a betrayal (hence the ‘shut up’ part of the deal). My solution was to tell my supervisors and send the arsehole in question to Coventry (i.e. stop talking to him)

    When someone is recounting a personal experience, I find it relatively easy to offer sympathy even if my own lack of experience in whatever they went through means I am not very well able to empathise directly (i’m also not great at dealing with people in general sometimes, a major reason i went into medical research instead of medicine). For me, this starts getting difficult when it intersects with medicine and science… as an example, a while ago I read a heartrending story of someone losing a pregnancy late-term, with an addendum that they had since managed to have a child but the child had come down with autism which they attributed to vaccines. In a similar vein, there was a recent paper that found a correlation between Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and a virus, XMRV, and many were overjoyed that a ’cause’ had been discovered and held onto that despite all the subsequent research that showed the initial result was probably just a fluke (not uncommon with such research, ever since the HPV-cervical cancer link was established we have been looking for others, Mouse Mammary Tumour Virus was linked to human breast cancer a while back but that turned out to be a probably false link too). Trying to tell someone who’s hurting that while you “sympathise with what they are going through, they’re wrong on the science” without being an arsehole yourself is one of the hardest things I’ve ever tried to do, and to be honest I usually end up saying nothing and going after the easier targets like the quacks exploiting these people, e.g. XMRV has spawned a load of bogus tests and treatments, some of them pretty nasty with antiretrovirals normally used to treat HIV.

    (I hope I’ve managed to phrase all this ok, again the whole ‘telling people they’re wrong/mistaken without being an arsehole’ is something I try hard but don’t always succeed at, so feel free to yell at me! And apologies if this is a bit of a derail)

    Btw, to the person upthread who was talking about applying scepticism? I generally only apply scepticism to scientifically verifiable claims where evidence is available. People’s personal experiences of stuff like racism is not something I would classify as something to be sceptical about, especially from my privileged position.

  52. I recently ran into an issue with a friend similar to this, the privilege invoked being that of never-divorced vs divorced. Long story short I was told that it was not okay for me to be content with my current situation with my ex and that I was pretending everything is okay. I pointed out that having never been divorced or had to deal with raising children with an ex-spouse, she was not in a place to tell me how I should feel about the situation, or to claim to know how I feel better than I do, myself. Then (and I’ve seen this too, on many comments – the privileged complaining of being marginalized) I was accused of trying to make this friend feel bad for being happily married.

  53. Most of my comment is in response to what I’ve read in this section from Dank. To Dank and also Gold, Fifthmarch, and rice, I’ll respond directly to some of what you wrote in a bit here. I also have a reading recommendation for the men who go anywhere near Helen–Helen, I hope it is useful to you.

    But first to Chally:
    Thank you so much for composing and posting this writing. I’d like to know if I can cross post it to my blog, with a link to the comments page.

    This is like a powder keg of emotions for me. I have various privileges and various places of being oppressed and/or structurally/systematically marginalised. I posted about being intergender and the first comment–which I didn’t publish to my blog was this from someone who criss-crosses me in places of oppression and privilege:

    So your a Transsexual who’s in deep denial of being a transsexual. So you had to come up with a name to try and pass yourself off as an intersex wannabe by calling yourself an intergender.

    That I had to laugh after reading this because this proves how many transsexuals will try so hard to pass themselves off as an intersex person by claiming to be intersex and claiming to be intergender. When in reality, their is no such thing as Intergender.

    You are either a transsexual or an intersex person. So that would make you trans, because you don’t have the Genetics, DNA, Chromosomes, physical and biological features of an intersex person or intersex condition.

    So for me, I think your a Transsexual who is in deep denial and has some serious issues.

    To say such a comment violates my “comment policy” would be an understatement.

    I am, first and foremost, reminded of Pearl Cleage’s passage in Deals With the Devil and Other Reasons to Riot (pgs. 31-32). When you are racially or sexually positioned, structurally, politically-in-a-social-hierarchy, above and against someone, and they are speaking to you about experiences of being impacted by racism or sexism (or whatever else), it is incumbent upon you to adopt a posture of listening rather than a posture of speaking. To be in a posture of learning, not in a posture of preaching.

    Practicing empathy is part of it, but a bigger part of it is what was named above: not asserting one’s socially protected privilege and entitlement to dominate in situations where you are the dominant person relative to who you are with.

    I wish–in my own mind–that almost everyone who posted a comment here had also shared what positions of privilege and marginalisation they hold–regarding being oppressed/being an oppressor. Because I honestly think the comments that are suggesting that “being able to engage in rational debate is not necessarily racist” (admittedly, a paraphrased summary by me) and such, are from the most structurally privileged people here. I’d put money on it. I’d put money on the fact that they most likely have class, race, and gender privileges–or a combo. Yes, I would. Which brings me to Dank.

    Dank, what are your social privileges? Are you white or of color, woman, man, intergender, or transgender? Are you someone who was raised poor or not? Are you heterosexual? Are you disabled or not? I ask this in earnestness. I’d really like to know.

    I’m white, gay, an adult male who isn’t elderly, intergender–not a man; Jewish; raised mixed class–mostly what would be termed middle class with family who were working class or rural poor; I’m living economically privileged as an adult; disabled; a survivor of a lot of childhood trauma that gets responded to with “why don’t you get over that already”; a survivor of sexual exploitation as an adult; academically educated and educated more outside of the academy. I’m a Westerner, a Global Northerner, an English-as-a-First-Language speaker, and am a U.S.er. I’ve got gads of privilege. And one thing I’ve learned in being an activist-ally to people of color specifically, as a white person, is to listen and s.t.f.u. a lot of the time when someone is telling me about an experience of being injured by racism, sexism, heterosexism, transphobia, ableism, etc.

    I’ll respond to a few snippets of what you’ve stated above, Dank.

    She thinks that it happens because no one believes marginalized groups. I think that it is because their life experiences are so different, that the privileged people genuinely have trouble fitting those events into the way they view the world, and so find them unlikely.

    IF you are white, a Westerner, and a male-man, and part of the Global North, do you get that your worldview is a minority view and that it would be appropriate for you NOT to assume that if someone tells you something that does not compute, that it is likely because your privileges prevent you from knowing much about the world of human suffering, perseverance, stamina, and lots of salt on the wound suffering and serial assaults on the psyche if not also against the body?

    Nowhere was your willful or simply unconscious ignorance about racism more obvious, to me, than in this comment:

    I never had a teacher whom I could imagine being deliberately racist to a student. So my first reaction to hearing that is surprise.

    I’ve never met a white Christian teacher who I could imagine NOT being racist or anti-Semitic. So what does that tell us? I am truly SHOCKED when I meet a heterosexual who isn’t overtly or more “liberally” heterosexist. SHOCKED. Who is “living in reality” more here? Chally or you? This is a reality-check about where we are located, and with whom we stand in alliance, including in comments on political blogs.

    @Gold – same question: what privileges do you have? This comment of yours, “Chally, I think there are some interesting points here but I have to side with Dank” leads me to feel that you “didn’t get it” about what Chally is saying. And so I’m wondering “why didn’t Gold get it?” Chally’s post isn’t just a collection of interesting points. It’s the expression of the experience of enduring racism, regularly, a lot. That you turn that sharing into something–how to say it?–“intellectualised”, “abstracted out of reality” is, to me, a way of establishing a kind of dominance and control in a society that values abstraction and intellectualising in some circles, at least, over co-experiencing through empathy and listening and learning. And this isn’t an invitation to intellectually discuss what I’m writing, here, btw. If you want to do that, I welcome you to come to my blog (A Radical Profeminist), find a post that deals with this stuff, and post a comment there. The “I have to side with Dank” makes this into an experience, for me, of you establishing where your political alliance is. Clearly. And it’s disheartening for me to read what you wrote, because my experience is the socially and politically privileged will almost always, if not always, side with one another publicly, when and where it counts.

    @Fifthmarch – same question: what are your positions of privilege in the many social hierarchies this blog addresses? In response to this: “I know that this is nothing compared to Kim’s, and other people’s experiences here. I just wanted to put this on to say that this happens EVERYWHERE.”

    What’s the “this”? And where’s the “EVERYWHERE”? In tribal Namibia? On the plains of Mongolia? In rural, poor North or Central America? In urban Korea? Have you been “everywhere” to know this? I’d ask you to state that it happens in ‘your’ everywhere, and also to tell us where that everywhere is, please. If the “this” is “people are inconsiderate”, do you get that’s not what Chally is discussing here? As I take in what she’s saying, I don’t hear her talking about “damn, people can be so inconsiderate”. I hear her talking about the experience of racism which is an affront, a condescension, an assault, a belittlement, an attempt to silence, make smaller, render invisible, and make go away. That’s not about being inconsiderate, is it? So why do you take what she says–again, to my own read–and turn it into something else? What’s the political function of you doing that here?

    @rice – same question: what are your privileges? And when you wrote this, “I’m not sure how constructive calling someone a pompous prick is”, I felt angry, at you. I felt angry because there are always people in places of privilege–I’ll wait to find out what yours are–at the ready to tell anyone who expresses anything that is patriarchally incorrect to “get with the program”. Your words, to me, function to police and control what prettyamiable said here. I’m calling that out. I’m making the case that it may well be constructive for a lot of us who deal with pompous pricks all the damn time and never hear it called out in nice, succinct language because usually we’re in spaces where we’d get thrashed, in one way or another, for using language like that–the cutting-to-the-chase-language. Like calling someone “a fucking cracker-assed bigot”. I’m not calling you that, to be clear. I’m stating that I’ve seen on white blogs and/or on men’s blogs where anyone who is structurally not privileged–I’ve seen this when women of color call whites/men out in very clear language–that there’s always some privileged person or ally of them to jump into the conversation and call “FOUL” [language] but they never seem to notice that the racist and misogynist stuff that came first was OPPRESSIVELY and SYSTEMATICALLY ASSAULTIVELY foul. And so the only “fouls” that get called (I can’t believe I’ve drifted into sports metaphors–may the non-white het male supremacist god help me; I dislike most boy-man team sports; so I’ll make this a reference to women’s team sports that use the term “foul”), are the fouls that “register” as offences to the oppressor. And the offences that are also forms of oppression to the oppressed get put in the “discourse-only” category. Have you noticed that?

    @Helen – I’m sorry to hear what you described and if you don’t know about it, I recommend, whenever you think it might be appropriate, to send the dudes who are oppressive and controlling to this website to read this piece called “Everyday Male Chauvinism”:
    http://stop-ferfieroszak.hu/en/everyday-male-chauvinism.

    And back to Chally and the others here who endure ridiculous and degrading racism or sexism on a daily basis. I hope it happens here and elsewhere online less and less often as weeks go by, but I won’t hold my breath.

  54. This is one of the ways in which I think the notion of “objectivity” leads in the wrong direction. The idea that a standard of rightness and wrongness exists in a reasonably easily accessible value judgement (e.g., “I know these facts to be objectively true, thus anything which contradicts them must be objectively false”), which makes it very difficult for someone who has already latched onto an idea as “objectively” true listen with true openness to a “subjective” truth (in this case, I would argue subjectivity from both perspectives, but I know we don’t have consensus on that). When there are two competing realities, there’s a logical bias to believe that ours is the better conceived, simply because we have immense insight into our own thought processes compared to someone else’s, and it’s not comfortable or practical to assume that we are consistently and necessarily wrong every time we encounter a contradictory idea. But part of genuinely hearing another person’s story is to be able to entertain multiple realities without getting anxious or frustrated about which one is more “true” in that moment. My approach is to accept everything I am told as being as true as anything else I know, unless I have a specific meaningful reason to doubt another person’s word (or my own, in the case of areas where my experience is clearly limited or biased in its own protection). Given that I have considerably more access to my own thought processes, it makes sense to apply proportionately greater skepticism to myself than to the words of other people. There’s more material to work with.

    When it comes to unreality as oppression, I am also reminded of abusive relationships I’ve seen and experienced where one of the chief tactics of the abuser was to distort and unhinge the other person’s sense of reality. I remember my mother showing me everything that she had written down about her most recent argument with my father, because she knew he would change the story, and very convincingly, the next time they fought.

  55. rice: I’m not sure how constructive calling someone a pompous prick is,

    I’m not sure why you think the thought process was, “Man, you know what would be constructive? Calling the pompous prick a pompous prick.” Since you apparently seem to approach internet commenting with the sole goal of making every phrase and comment constructive and are taking team “critical thinking is awesome and no one ever would have thought of it ever before this post!” then you might want to apply that same critical thinking to the comment as a whole, where I explain pretty clearly that it’s incredibly pompous to suggest you have the answer to why privileged people habitually ignore marginalized voices, and it’s critical thinking! Further, when you invoke statements that cannot be disproven and you refuse to read the actual post that puts this one into context, it’s pretty fucking pompous. So yes, saying, “Here’s what I think” can make you a prick when you present it in such a manner, especially when you’re trampling over marginalized voices to do it.

    But oh no! Someone criticized someone else’s thoughts on the internet! Let’s get involved.

  56. Jadey: , I am also reminded of abusive relationships I’ve seen and experienced where one of the chief tactics of the abuser was to distort and unhinge the other person’s sense of reality.

    Gaslighting, I think it’s referred to as.. a terrible thing to experience.

    “That never happened”
    “I’m sorry that’s how you took it” <— I hate that one, especially
    "You're blowing it out of proportion"
    "I never said that"

  57. Thank you so much for this post, especially for finding the Laintg quote that sums it up so much, and the unfortunate bit that we have to have a psych person to fullly validate the reality of our experiences.

    It helped me to finally get that I’m not the crazy one, that my mother is the one with the issues trying to cover up her physical fights with my father by downplaying the voice of the child witness.

  58. I tell men that things they’re saying are sexist fairly frequently. More often than not, they argue with me. Most of the time, I’m still right about the fact that what they said is sexist, and that the reasons they said what they did is rooted in sexism. Sometimes they eventually see where I’m coming from and agree with me (maybe even apologize!), and sometimes they don’t. Sometimes, though, I’m not right, and I was overreacting. Sometimes what they said wasn’t rooted in sexism at all, and rather something else entirely, and I was the one not listening, because I am so used to dealing with sexism so frequently from men who looked and talked just like them, that I made the incorrect sweeping generalization that they were identical to other males who are sexist and don’t examine their male privilege, and I assumed that they had the same intentions, and meant the same same things as those other men.

    I mean, yeah, it’s really shitty when people don’t believe your personal experience, and it’s even shittier when it happens all the time. But, there are times when questioning an accusation of sexism, racism, etc. can be of value for the sake of clarification and honest, productive dialogue. It’s usually not appropriate in a situation where someone is complaining about something that happened to them elsewhere, but that’s not to say that it never is, when discussing personal experiences.

  59. Let me give an example of what I’m talking about:

    I was at Target a couple years ago, and a woman had her cart taking up most of the aisle, blocking me from getting to the other end of the aisle. She was looking at things on a shelf and not paying attention to me. Rather than interrupting her to ask her to move her cart, which I saw as a potential inconvenience to her (I am admittedly anti-confrontational to a ridiculous degree), I simply squeezed past her cart to get where I needed to go. She noticed this, and turned around to confront me. She said that I could have just asked her to move, but didn’t because she was black. I was so dumbstruck that I stared after her, mouth agape, and said nothing in response.

    While my decision to squeeze past her cart was possibly less productive than asking her politely to move it, my motivations for doing so were not related to her skin color, but were instead rooted in my standard mode of operating in public, which is to remain as invisible and non-confrontational as possible. Had I had my wits about me, perhaps I would have tried politely explaining this to her, but from what I’m reading in this comment thread, that would have been an invalid response, because I would then be using my white privilege to negate the feeling that she had that what I did was rooted in racism, even though her feeling came from something that was simply unture, likely due to her experiencing actual racism on a frequent basis. Is she wrong for making that assumption, based on her prior experiences? Not necessarily; every person makes judgments based on prior experience, and for good reason. But her accusation was wrong, and I don’t feel that it is my duty to apologize for an action I haven’t committed.

  60. The hardest part of this idea, for me, is that often people asking if it’s “really that bad” do seem to be coming from a place of wanting to help. Does that make it okay? Not really. But it does make my feelings of the act more complex.

    I come from a family with a lot of drama, judgment, bad situations, divorce, abuse, whatever. And when I am overcome with anxiety and anger towards my mom’s most recent insensitive or judgmental comment, my girlfriend (whose family is whole and stable) often tries to calm my anxieties by insisting that I’m overreacting, or she’s sure that’s not what my mom meant, etc. etc. Which, as a previous commenter said, can be good if you’re overreacting to a trivial thing– someone being late to your party, whatever. But to minimalize my feelings, even if my mom does have a different side to tell, only hurts.

    I know she means well. I (personally) can’t feel outraged at her. But this post did help me to understand a lot of my own feelings when this happens. I like the idea that there is no “objective” truth to my relationship with my mother. Just because my mom “didn’t mean” to hurt me and my girlfriend “didn’t mean” to belittle my experience doesn’t mean that my hurt feelings aren’t valid.

    If I accidentally elbow somebody in the ribs as I’m turning around, it’s fair to say that I didn’t mean to hurt them. But my innocent intentions don’t reduce the sensation of pain they feel in their side. A third party saying I didn’t mean it won’t make it physically feel any better. Why is it any different with words?

  61. Thank you for this post. The post and the comments gave me a lot to think about. I recently was talking to a man about my feelings about feminism, which for me can be an emotional topic and has a lot to do with my personal experiences, and he kept trying to steer the conversation into more of an “intellectual debate” which made me think of some of the comments here. I wrote about it on my blog because I didn’t want to derail here. But basically, I think valuing “rational thought” over personal experience is a patriarchal practice. And it’s silly, because hearing about someone’s personal experience (if you’re really listening) can increase your knowledge about a topic and help you to think more rationally about it.

  62. I’m very flattered that you’d want to cross-post this piece, Julian. I’m afraid I’m going to have to turn you down, but please feel free to copy a fair use excerpt from the piece and link to the rest.

    April, as I pointed out to Dank, we’re talking about a trend of having experiences invalidated on the basis of oppression here, not experiences where that is *not* the case.

    Can we all stop invoking related but different things or you’re against critical thought!!1! to derail what is turning into what is for me in any case a rather important conversation?

  63. @julian real

    I’m not going to tell you personal details about my genitals, what I do or do not do with them, my skin, or my paycheck. If you read something, and the sex, race, or class of the writer makes you feel differently about what is written beyond “is this person lying about themselves?” then I suppose you and I simply have very different ideas about these sorts of conversations. Myself, I don’t see how my choice of lovers, for example, would make anything I’ve posted in this thread more or less credible. Or that any abuse I have suffered in the past might make my arguments more or less valid. I’m sure this can be read as evidence that I’m incredibly privileged, since I won’t identify myself.

    To the rest, I am not a moderator on this board. I cannot police anyone’s statements. I can disagree with them, and voice opposition to name calling that I think discredits and demeans a dialogue. And if I do so in a way in violation of this board’s policies, I’m sure they’ll omit such comments, as is their right. But I’m in no position of either social or administrative power over amiable.

    I absolutely agree that it is infuriating and tiresome when rules about discourse are used to silence only those who disagree with the dominant viewpoint. I think they should be sustained across the board. It seems that you do not.

    @prettyamiable

    I suppose I made the unfounded assumption that you valued constructive discussion over petulant name calling. I promise to avoid that misunderstanding in the future.

  64. April, as I pointed out to Dank, we’re talking about a trend of having experiences invalidated on the basis of oppression here, not experiences where that is *not* the case.

    Well, that’s really kind of the point, though. It’s easy to tell me now that, sure, I was wrong in some of the instances where I accused my male friends of sexism, or that the woman at Target was not accurate in “calling out” my racism. But that’s because it’s after the fact. I’m using these experiences as examples of why I don’t agree with the argument that it’s never appropriate to question a person’s experience if they believe said experience took place because of oppression, or another’s privilege.

    I get that you’re trying to keep the conversation from veering into opposing anecdotes that aren’t directly related to the topic at hand, but in your post, you’re arguing in favor of unquestioningly believing all claims of racism, sexism, ableism, etc., with the added bonus that a person of relative privilege may not ever question the claim of racist, sexist, etc. treatment without being insensitive or privileged and, therefore, always wrong. If you don’t want to engage criticisms of the ideas you’ve presented in particular posts, fine, but you should think about adding that statement to the end of your posts or something. I’m always of the impression that, unless otherwise noted, relevant criticisms of ideas are welcome on blog posts.

  65. That’s all right, April, but that’s not the only part that misunderstands what I’m saying. As to the second part, I am really not going to bother to restate what I was arguing yet again, particularly with someone who’s claiming something as facetious as that I don’t accept relevant criticisms of ideas. If you can’t engage in good faith, as I am, get off the thread as you are trying my patience.

  66. I don’t see that you can make a good faith argument that I’m unwilling to accept criticism in the face of… all the times I’ve accepted criticism, in which case you seriously need to reconsider what you’re saying before you make claims like that about me as a writer, then, and don’t make silly demands about modifying my own posts.

  67. Elizabeth: If I accidentally elbow somebody in the ribs as I’m turning around, it’s fair to say that I didn’t mean to hurt them. But my innocent intentions don’t reduce the sensation of pain they feel in their side. A third party saying I didn’t mean it won’t make it physically feel any better. Why is it any different with words?  

    Love this too.

    rice: @prettyamiable

    I suppose I made the unfounded assumption that you valued constructive discussion over petulant name calling. I promise to avoid that misunderstanding in the future.  

    And I suppose I made the unfounded assumption that you would realize you can’t have critical thinking without thinking critically. I promise to avoid THAT misunderstanding in the future. Next time I see a post where someone calls someone I’m internet-associated-with a prick, I’ll ignore all the content of their statement too. That is the internet way!

    Incidentally, where you claim that your gender, sex, race, orientation and so on don’t matter is ridiculous in a thread that discusses privilege and marginalization. If you are part of a privileged population, you cannot know what it is like to be a marginalized person on that dimension who is continuously dismissed for expressing hir experiences. If you’re turning around and saying that you know better and then make the assumption that the other is simply not thinking critically, it is because your experiences as a person of privilege are coloring the lens you’re applying to the situation, especially if you decide you can make this judgment without actually putting this conversation into any kind of context.

  68. This is a lovely thought provoking post….it’s sad when people in authority think that just because they have authority that means that thier word rules and no one else should be heard. No one should be scared of questioning people with authority and/or privlage…..btw I just read the meory post and that was equally as thought provoking and enraging! I once and a manager that did shit ljust like that and would get PISSED if anyone called him on his crap ….it freaking hurts when you know you are doing nothing wrong and yet people tend to take the side of those they see as more deserving! Anyway thanks for the post!

  69. Great post. Thins one brought me out of the woodwork.

    Was it Chally or someone else who wrote on “there is no true objectivity” recently? I don’t think it was her, but it links with it. We all have different realities, and the problem is that we don’t always know which one we’re in…

    When we’re talking about the subjective our statements are unchallengeable. “I was hurt” or “I was offended” or “I thought he was trying to get in my pants” or “I thought that was racist as hell” or whatever we want. Who the hell is anyone ELSE to disagree with that? It’s my damn opinion, thx.

    But we also use the objective all the time, especially to try to make a point. The more that we try to convince someone of the rightness of our actions, the farther we get from “I felt offended by that” and the closer we get to “that was offensive.”

    And then what?

    As a feminist woman, I’m supposed to trust all women implicitly, yet I don’t. I don’t distrust them more than men, but feminists or not I am not the type to accept someone’s objective statements without being cynical about their perspective. Nor do I expect anyone to accept mine. I think we all recognize that we are imperfect, and that we need to take each others’ “objective” stuff with quite a few grains of salt.

    We’ve probably all been burned in our lives by accepting someone’s version of reality and then finding that it didn’t mesh with our own, at all. I sure have. And it’s made me unwilling to have faith in people I don’t know.

    But I don’t see a great solution. On the one hand, if you ask me to take your statements at face value without testing them, then unless you’re my professor or something I’m not going to give you much trust. Your words may still be useful as a story to illustrate a point*, but you may not be using the same reality as I am so I won’t take them for much.

    OTOH, it also makes perfect sense that (just like everything else!) relative power comes up in who challenges who, and when, and how. Of course it does!

    But which shall i choose? Shall I refrain from challenging someone for fear of exercising my privilege in the challenge, and therefore consign them to the “not believable” camp? Or shall i challenge them in an effort to see if their truth is “real to me,” and thus piss them off?

    I think Chally is sort of trying to use the “professor” solution: as a mod, she’s asking us to give her a sort of respect and credence that we don’t give to other random people. It’s her blog, so that’s reasonable in her case. But I don’t think it really works as a general rule, with the most obvious example being the reverse: Chally needs (and I assume she wants) to be able to disagree with me, no matter how real my own truth is to me. That’s a different rule.

  70. Emily and Jadey – Yes times a million.

    April re: Target – See here’s the thing. You’re assuming that there was only one “appropriate” experience that occurred – yours. The woman *felt* something hurtful from your completely innocent action. Her experience of that moment is valid regardless of whether you agree with how she interpreted it.

    In that moment a person could do one of three (that I can think of) things (1) disagreed with her experience, (2) empathized over her experience, or (3) empathized but disagreed over intention (which is all the person has superior access to).

    The first one is what typically happens. But this illustrates perfectly that you can disagree with someone without invalidating or questioning their experience.

  71. This is a very interesting article. And I believe it is incumbent on everyone trying to have productive, respectful conversations with other human beings to listen, to hear and to not assume that their own experiences are the same or outweigh what is being said to them, particularly if that person is from a marginalised group.

    And yet and yet. Experience *is* subjective. Feelings *are* subjective. They matter and, depending on who you are talking to and your relationship with them, should be respected and honoured. But yet and yet, the same act CAN be totally differently processed by different people. So my challenge is around processing this:

    “So the point is not whether YOU consider something racist, but whether you can listen to her tell you a story and put aside your own privilege(s) and believe her when she says that it was.”

    I work at a community centre and one of our Japanese volunteers organised an amazing Japanese food, art and craft festival. As part of this, I and another volunteer of Nigerian origin were standing in the street encouraging passing people to come in (it’s a very busy area with a lot of tourists and local people traffic). We were telling each and every person that passed about the Japanese festival to come in and try sushi making, calligraphy lessons etc.

    Along with the usual, no I’m not interested, busy, on my way to catch a train, I experienced two Chinese Mandarin-speaking youngish women reacting quite angrily and saying ‘we are not Japanese, we’re Chinese you know’ and my volunteer experienced a Korean man saying similar. Both the Chinese women and the Korean man seemed to experience us telling them about a Japanese festival possibly as ‘All you Asians look alike’ or ‘All Asians are the same, Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, what’s the difference?’, when in fact they were approached merely as passers-by, who may or may not liked to have come in.

    If experience and feelings should be respected a priori as Queen Emily has exhorted, then were we racist to those passers-by? Should people who heard their story believe them that it was racist? What was the reality or unreality of that situation?

    This is why I struggle with the idea of *necessarily* accepting people’s lived experiences. I don’t want a world where people immediately dismiss them – for all the reasons that Chally says – but then neither can I get my brain around the idea that they should be immediately accepted as truth either.

  72. I didn’t say feelings should be a-priori respected. That’s one particular quote in the context of a thread where people persistently asserted the implausibility of Chally being right about her own experiences, hardly a fully fleshed piece of writing. I have had the same thing occur every time I mention every piece of prejudice I’ve ever faced that hasn’t involved violence or being spat on. And even then, maybe I was asking for it.

    So *what* if sometimes you have been accused of something wrongly? So what, if you’re being accused because of a broader pattern of inequity which you don’t face, and hence you have no knowledge of how that particular prejudice plays out? An exception is precisely that, an exception.

    Skepticism is not just about what “could” happen in some kind of measurable likelihood, some narratives are disbelieved precisely because they are ALL TOO possible and the listener would rather lie to themselves than admit how shitty people can be to each other, how we find or even create any kind of difference and then hate and hurt each other for it.

    The point is not some radical skepticism where you look Objectively At Reality As It Is, and it handily corresponds to the dominant knowledges of a particular place and historical epoch (even a limited locale like the feminist blogosphere, or even Feministe itself has its own norms), and the knowledges of people who are not dominant in the place are suppressed, “not believable,” over sensitive, and so on.

    The point is this: when a marginalised person tells you (universal you, not you in particular) their experiences it is an ethical challenge precisely because as a narrative about behaviour you don’t witness and feelings you didn’t feel it *is* ultimately unverifiable. It is an ethical challenge to take seriously someone who is not taken as seriously as you may be, or taken seriously in the same way.

    Can you hear the ring of truth, can you accept that your perceptions are not the whole of the world, can you even accept that your behaviours or those of you loved ones might be upsetting or even violent towards marginalised peoples? Are you open to learning from the Other, are you responding with kindness and empathy? Or are you excluding the very possibility of their being right from the start because you have too much invested in your privileges or ideas or innocence?

    How you answer that challenge is up to you.

  73. To everyone who is currently thinking of examples of times in which they were totally 100% RIGHT and there’s no way the other person’s experience could be acceptable because it was WRONG (there are more than a few examples on this thread), consider that the problem is in the approach you are using to conceptualize the issue, that there are competing realities in which one is right and the other is wrong, and either you win or you lose.

    It does not matter that your (or whomever the subject of the example’s) proximal reasons for whatever happened were not racist, etc. That is the point. When the system is built to be racist, anything and everything can be racist. That’s how it works. It sucks. That is why actively fighting the current is what’s required to be anti-racist (and in the spirit of the swimming metaphor, sometimes we make more headway than at other times). And part of fighting privilege means eating shit from time to time, if only to remember how infrequently you are made to relish that particular dish (at least on that axis of privilege).

    Realistically, no one is getting a scarlet “R” printed on their shirts. Of the examples shared on this thread, the only personal harm (to the subject of the examples) I have seen described from these “misunderstandings” is the uncomfortable sensation of feeling out of control about how other people perceive you, which is exactly the kind of thing that is bound to happen in a system that pits one group against another. Privilege is only having to deal with it on rare occasions from people with relatively less social leverage over you. Oppression is learning to expect that every day from everyone you meet, especially those with considerable social leverage over you.

    1. Co-sign what both Queen Emily and Jadey said.

      I’d also like to place an emphasis — because it’s the thought that was independently running through my head before reading those comments, not because it’s necessarily the most important or best point that can be taken from them — on so what if this one time you believe a marginalized person about an experience of oppression that actually was a genuine misunderstanding? What GOOD can possibly come from your “skepticism” towards their experience? All I see is a lot of bad — the assertion of a privileged experience over a marginalized one, a marginalized person being reminded YET AGAIN that their experience of oppression doesn’t matter, silencing of that experience, etc. For what, exactly? Defending the honor of the stranger with the shopping cart (or whatever) who may have not really meant anything (but more than likely probably did)? How is that “good” seen as even remotely worth the bad?

  74. WestEndGirl, given that Japan invaded both Korea and China within living memory, it’s possible that the Koreans and Chinese who reacted to your kind invitation to come in and view a Japanese festival weren’t (or weren’t just) reacting like that because they thought you thought “All Asians are alike!” but because they assumed you were aware of their nationality and you should have known better than to think they would want to go see a Japanese festival.

    If experience and feelings should be respected a priori as Queen Emily has exhorted, then were we racist to those passers-by? Should people who heard their story believe them that it was racist? What was the reality or unreality of that situation?

    Well, if they tell the story to their friends as an ironic-funny “Hey, this white girl was trying to get us to come into this Japanese festival and we had to let her know we’re Koreans…” (or Chinese) their friends might nod sympathetically, because of all the times this has happened to them, or they might say “Oh, that Japanese festival? I think they were asking EVERYONE to come in” or whatever. But what does it matter that your intentions were innocent, if you accidentally caused someone pain?

    It means you don’t have to feel guilty. But you caused them pain: you can still apologise for that.

    It was a lovely sunny day. I was wearing sandals. So was the nice lady right behind me as we both browsed along the bookstall. Unfortunately, I’m a hundred kilos of muscle and fat (“I’m big-boned!” – ed) and I was wearing solid sandals of the kind you go for long walks in hot weather, while she was wearing light sandals of the kind you wear between car and beach.

    I noticed a new Who novel in the box below the stall, and, not realising she was there, I took a quick step backwards to kneel down for it – and felt my heel come down quite heavily on someone’s toes, as someone behind me let out a loud gasp of pain. – On Saying Sorry

    You suggested: This is why I struggle with the idea of *necessarily* accepting people’s lived experiences. I don’t want a world where people immediately dismiss them – for all the reasons that Chally says – but then neither can I get my brain around the idea that they should be immediately accepted as truth either.

    I didn’t intend to hurt that woman’s foot. Her lived experience, however, was that her foot hurt because I’d trodden on it. Following your argument, because my intentions were entirely innocent, you are unable to get your brain around the idea that I should have immediately have accepted as truth that her foot hurt.

  75. Queen Emily and Jadey (and a latterly Cara)

    I totally get the, not everyone understands other people’s (particularly marginalised people’s) experiences and so have the distinct possibility of diminishing or actively disbelieving their experiences based on the dominant ways of thinking. This is a very reasonable proposition, it’s happened to me in my own little place in the kyriarchy. I see it all around me, through my work, through my consumption of media, through my friends, my family. Not all voices are believed or valued. To some people this is a frequent, daily oppressive occurrence.

    However, I see a lot of space between accepting that and acting mindfully and respectfully, questioning yourself when challenged and being humble and eating sh*t (quote, unquote) and having a scenario where narratives and experiences cannot be questioned.

    And I really feel, Queen Emily and Jadey, by classifying the example I gave as an exception, it’s doing just that. It’s erring on the side of experiential caution in a way that I actually think is counterproductive.

    The example I gave was not an otherworldly exception or randomly attributing motives or not to some theoretical stranger with a shopping cart. It was a moment in the world where people clearly experienced something personally around their race/ethnicity that had no relation to their race/ethnicity.

    But there *were* at least two simultaneous realities going on that have equal weight. Why? Because as a mixed Jewish and Nigerian women’s realities in that situation, in this interaction, ALL OF US LOST. My colleague was really upset and angry herself.

    There is a productive conversation to be had around problematic interactions – how can they be avoided, how can they be resolved, what could happen differently – but it cannot be had if examples like this are dismissed as exceptions. Every day is full of interactions by differently privileged people acting on each other. I think it would have been more beneficial to all of us if those people had stopped to challenge us properly and we could have reached a better understanding of what was actually going on. Of course that’s utopian and more than slightly impractical in that particular scenario, but it would achieved a better outcome surely?

    It’s not acceptable to be skeptical of marginalised people’s experiences, it’s clearly not. But if we don’t question interactions, particularly were there are misunderstandings, it seems like we are giving into the racist system because on that reading, it requires us to assume the worst all the time. I’m not sure how it is bad to establish what things actually *are*, rather than what we fear them to be.

    And Jesurgislac, please do not address posts to me. Do not presume to explain to me the different between intent and impact, do not give me patronising history lessons, do not address me as a white girl, do not address patronising posts to me ever again.

  76. This post is perfect. Just perfect on every level. One thing that I would like to contribute to the conversation is a reply to the “people exaggerate all the time and that’s why people might doubt a person’s experience of racism/sexism/classism etc.” It is true that people often exaggerate while telling a story to render their listener more sympathetic. But what does it say that (privileged) people often voice doubt when hearing about the oppression of another person, when they would otherwise take a person’s account of something at face value? When they would otherwise give the benefit of the doubt to the person standing in front of them telling the story, rather than to the person who the story teller believes wronged her? Why is it that someone who tells you that some asshole cut her off on the way to the office is believed, while the person who believes she experienced homophobia because she was glared and scoffed at while holding hands with her girlfriend is told that she is not correct in her interpretation of her own experience? “Maybe they were all just having really bad days and you happened to be walking by at the time” “You’re exaggerating, nobody is really like that” “You’re overreacting, maybe they were really looking past you and scoffing and glaring at something else”. The perceived oppressor is defended and given the benefit of the doubt instead of the person who believes that they were oppressed; this seldom happens when a person is telling a story that does not involve an account of racism/sexism/heterosexism/classism, etc.

  77. Ok, I have a lot of thoughts in response to a lot of informed discussion on this thread. I hope this post is coherent.

    In response to those who defended critical thinking: I think you missed my point about a normally good algorithm being broken. Of course we think critically about things we hear from other people. My post was about how our critical thinking can break down when dealing with others from a different background, resulting in the phenomenon that Chally’s original post describes.

    In response to those who asked me to challenge myself, and try to see how my privilege hinders my knowledge:
    I think that you also missed the point of my post in the exact same way.

    The original article, as I read it, had three main points:

    1) People in privilege question stories of marginalization more than is justified.

    2) Why it happens.

    3) The negative effects it has.

    I took issue only with #2. I”ve already quoted it, but I’m going to again because I’m truly curious how other people read it:

    I think this starts from the automatic, often subconscious, assumption that the person higher in the social hierarchy is more trustworthy. Marginalised people just can’t be trusted, because they’re probably, uh, biased by their marginalisation so are probably exaggerating. Supposedly the person who has benefited from their privileges has no bias in the matter at all, and all the insights. It’s always this person who gets to wear the objectivity cap – after all, they’re not being unfairly biased by their identity politics agenda and their niche experiences.

    The implication is that doubt stems from who is telling the story as opposed to the story’s content. I believe that doubt stems from the latter.

    Now, responding to specific posts:

    it’s the same thing, though. the privileged people don’t have to be twirling their mustaches and thinking “bwa ha ha, how shall i make the lives of the marginalized worse today?” to be doing something that is making their lives worse. disbelieving someone because you simply can’t wrap your mind around their experience is still disbelieving them.

    This is a very good point, and I think it gets to the heart of my issue. What is the practical difference?

    1) Hearts and Minds. If you seek to convince people like April and Rice that this really is a problem, then it doesn’t help to call them bigots. I know that no one used that term, but if you think that they believe or don’t believe based on the marginalized status of the other person then that is what you’re implying. It just causes people to become defensive and dismissive. “I know that I’m not a bigot, your point must be wrong.”

    2) It is far easier to try to correct a problem when you understand its source. In this case, we understand how seeking out new and different worldviews than our own can vastly reduce conflict and pain. I think that it’s better to listen for a reason, than to listen because

    shut the fuck up and empathize

    .

    And in response to Kristen J: Make no mistake, I’m here for selfish reasons, not to empathize. My goal is to improve my understanding of the world around me, not to provide a shoulder to cry on. I think that the collective brains of all the people on this thread dwarf my own, and I’m trying to use all of you as tools for my own understanding. This whole thread made me think of this issue in a totally different way, and I thank you all for helping me.

  78. Yep. Yep, yep, yep.

    One way this manifests in my life quite often is with the “What ARE You???” ethnic-ambiguity guessing-game (where straight white dudes are most often the ‘contestants’ trying to guess ‘correctly’).

    When I tell that kind of story to others, it’s the rare individual who will take the time to emphasize with me, as someone who’s been exoticized and objectified in a sexist, racist way. Even people of color (again, often men) often see it as harmless curiosity or flattery, not oppression. They are still hunting for evidence that it was ‘really’ sexist or racist, even after I’ve told the whole story.

    Partly I think Chally’s right that this challenge comes from disbelieving me or finding me untrustworthy. (Such a frustrating catch-22 that the act of objecting to ‘positive’ het male attention in and of itself makes my viewpoint suspect. So from the very moment that I bring it up as a complaint, I’m cast under stricter scrutiny from those with dominant oppresive understandings. Same as a person of color who dares to characterize ‘friendliness’ as racism).

    And also it has to do with our very different understandings and definitions of what racism and sexism are. (I think my understandings are correct, and theirs are incorrect, which has little to do with my pain or feelings, subjectively speaking, but is certinaly informed by my lived experience as a femme cis middle-class woman of color living most of my life with thin privilege in the U.S.)

    Anyway, all this to say: hell yes.

    Also: I love that folks are bringing up the idea of apologizing for unintentional harms. (Not to be confused with saying: “I’m sorry (if) you were offended by what I said.”)

    One of my favorite metta practices (kind of a secular prayer I practice in dhammic/Buddhist meditation) starts out:

    “I seek pardon from anyone whom I might have hurt or harmed today, intentionally or unintentionally.

    If anyone has hurt or harmed me today, intentionally or unintentionally, I pardon them.”

    Pardoning someone doesn’t mean excusing their behavior, but cultivating forgiveness. (Which is not always possible, I understand. But, speaking for myself, is always desirable.)

    And I find that practicing this form of metta does help me hear people’s tellings of hurt with more openness and spaciousness in myself, all the while maintaining my “critical thinking” capacity.

  79. @Dank

    Just to clarify, I wasn’t arguing that privilege and marginalization don’t exist, or that marginalized groups complaints of marginalization aren’t overlooked or dismissed due to prejudice. I rather agree with both this propositions in general.

    I said that insisting that a personal experience go unchallenged is an unreasonable expectation when that story is used to make a statement about society, rather than just relating a person story for its own sake. In short, if someone says something that you experience as bigoted, no one has the right to tell you that you didn’t experience it that way. But whether they meant it that way seems a very fair area of discussion. As, in my opinion, does the reasonableness of your reaction.

    I also pointed out that your initial comment was about you positing a competing theory, rather than an implicit sign of privilege.

  80. People generally challenge (or don’t automatically accept) that which disagrees with their own view on what the world IS… More importantly, people tend to challenge that which doesn’t mesh with what they WANT the world to be.

    So a given person is more likely to challenge “your mother acted like a racist bigot” (assuming that she loves her mother) and less likely to challenge “your mother acted wonderful,” though there’s not necessarily any reason to do so, if she didn’t see the interaction in question. Nonetheless she will tend to assume that the accuser may be lying, while assuming that the “give a good report” person is accurate.

    Another person might be inclined to believe that the mother was a racist bigot. And if the mother blames it on an unjust accusation, they’d assume that the MOTHER was lying, and that the reporter was accurate.

    I think it is really important to distinguish between this situation with a MOTHER, and a situation with the PUBLIC. Why should the “discomfort/what you want’ extend to people you don’t actually know? Why should anyone want to defend West End girl? OTOH, why should anyone want to claim that West End Girl was wrong, or to defend her “opponents?” Why are we vested in EITHER side for people we don’t really know?

    Maybe we should seek to discuss it almost as a hypothetical, which permits us to evaluate the underlying issues without having to take a stance on the actual truth of the statements.

    So instead of “this is what happened to Chally; discuss…” it would be “what if this happened to Chally or someone like her? Discuss….”

  81. However, there is one set of cases where I think it’s not only permissible but morally necessary to say “you think it happened this way, but it didn’t”, and that is when letting the narrative stand unchallenged presents a danger to others.

    I think this is somewhat realistic… a lot of stories seem to come down to “ze said, ze said” and you can’t always add up all the marginalizations on both sides and arrive at an answer of who is most oppressed, and then pick which “ze said” you believe based on that. Certainly, if you have to pick a person to believe, at least out loud (who hasn’t nodded and smiled and totally lied that they believe someone before?) then when you do someone is gonna get their reality rejected (at least by a popular vote.)

    …But that has nothing to do with the post, right? In the example in the OP there was no second person talking, right? If it’s just “ze said” what does it cost you to nod and smile and maybe lie about how sympathetic you feel if you don’t personally believe them and be like “that is terrible” even if you kinda think it’s bullshit. (Which, for the record, I don’t think anyone here believes about Chally’s story.)

    Sure if Jenny McCarthy is like “vaccines gave my son teh autisms; avoid them!!!” you have to step up and point out that she is clearly upset but science’s reality disagrees with hers. But if some parent confides to you “I kind of think it was the vaccines, secretly? I’m not going to try to block them, but… I feel like it was” you don’t get to open their baby’s skull up and fish around for answers because at that point you are purely doing harm without a reason in the world except that you like to play Paladin of Ultimate Truth and Justice with sad people who disagree with you.

    TL;DR = unless you are in a court of law/seriously vital public opinion (or except for in the court of your personal, silent, private opinion) there is no compelling reason to question a person’s story to you except for the joy of douchey-ly NU-HUH-ing it.

  82. Actually, on a moment’s reflection, I think a lot of the pushback from privileged listeners is due to people’s weird need for “ze said, ze said” narratives. It’s dramatic! Someone will lose! And if the listener is only hearing a single “ze said” story… they’ll provide the other side themselves, just to make it a proper conflict.

  83. WestEndGirl: And Jesurgislac, please do not address posts to me. Do not presume to explain to me the different between intent and impact, do not give me patronising history lessons, do not address me as a white girl, do not address patronising posts to me ever again.

    I apologize. I made the classic “Internet assumption*” – which I have frequently mocked when others make it, and I am kicking myself right now for making it myself. That was stupid and hurtful and I’m sorry.

    *”Everyone on the Internet is straight, white, cis male, & American unless they make a point of telling you otherwise.”

  84. Hey Chally, just wanted to let you know that I always appreciate your posts, even though it must be draining to write them, since you always seem to have so many comments that profoundly and hurtfully miss the point.

  85. That makes a lot of sense to me WestEndGirl. I think maybe we’re largely on the same page, but I’m sounding more dogmatic than I am about this. So when you say

    >>>However, I see a lot of space between accepting that and acting mindfully and respectfully, questioning yourself when challenged and being humble and eating sh*t (quote, unquote) and having a scenario where narratives and experiences cannot be questioned.

    I definitely agree. This is one of those things where we are having an ethical discussion about what people *should* do as a response rather than what they will or won’t. I don’t think anyone *can* totally suspend skepticism, and certainly no-one can force anyone else – that’s why I called it a challenge. Either you respond or you don’t, and there’s often no way to know ahead of time how to ward off failure or a response to a malign or false narrative from the other.

    I mean, if you have personal experience of lying, or reason to suspect it’s not true because of other evidence then it will be something you won’t respond to. But I think we can agree that a lot of the time that people are responding less to the other’s story than themselves, protecting their own sense of reality at the expense of another’s.

    >>>And I really feel, Queen Emily and Jadey, by classifying the example I gave as an exception, it’s doing just that. It’s erring on the side of experiential caution in a way that I actually think is counterproductive.

    This is where we depart company in terms of strategies. Because of the historical biases against marginalised peoples, I figure if I’m going to err (and I will, as we all do) that I should err on the side of the marginalised, because solidarity is needed more there. I don’t think that’s necessarily any more counterproductive than any other approach to another’s narrative. I accept the possibility of being deceived or mislead, but I think there’s more justice in that stance than in any other.

    In any case, like literature, we can learn something from a story even if it’s not entirely or only true, surely?

    I do agree with what you said about how two people’s worldviews can be fundamentally incompatible, and that can mean flawed or false perceptions on one or both sides. But I’m optimistic enough to think that those conflicting worldviews can be bridged to some extent through narratives, openness and empathy. It’s not absolute, but none of this is, really!

  86. I just want to point out a little feminist history that’s related to the topic at hand. In many respects, second wave feminism owes its genesis to women coming together and sharing their individual experiences of sexism in the 60s and 70s. Does anyone here remember the term “consciousness raising group” (or cr group)? These were groups of women who met to discuss the experiences of their daily lives and how sexism and gender issues came into play. It was within the boundaries of these groups that women started to recognize that there were shared patterns of experience that underlie sexist oppression. Before coming together and sharing their stories, it was far too easy to dismiss one’s experiences as the caprice of everyday life and individual interactions gone awry. Sharing the frustrating experiences of sexist interactions helped women realize that a readily recognizable problem existed with common patterns of expression that could be challenged and changed. Out of these discussions, came a lot of intellectual ferment that eventually went into the body of feminist theory generated by the second wave of feminism. Essentially, feminism as we know it today, has its roots in women sharing their—horror of horrors—subjective experiences and realizing that they weren’t alone in their frustration and hurt. Go read the Wikipedia article that I linked to above. It’s pretty interesting.

    I’ve been witnessing something comparable happening among trans people on the internet during the past decade. Because we are such a small, deeply oppressed, and hidden minority, it took a widespread, semi-anonymous venue like the internet to make this sharing of experiences possible. A lot of intellectual ferment has come out of shared discussions of our childhoods, our emotions, and our everyday interactions with cis people. Personally, I have found this process to be crucial in finding the internal resources necessary to give cissexism the middle finger it so richly deserves.

    So, as for folks calling for shedding the messy, untrustworthy bonds of subjective experience for the hallowed ground of clean, reasoned, skeptical inquiry: meh. When sharing subjective experiences occurs on a collective level, pretty amazing things can happen. If such sharing is regularly met with sentiments such as “personal experience is not worthy of serious intellectual consideration”, how in the heck are we supposed to move forward? Personal experience, in spite of some people’s distaste for the subjective, has meaning and import… and sometimes that meaning and import can only be discovered when we share our stories with each other. For that to happen, a supportive environment is crucial.

  87. so what if this one time you believe a marginalized person about an experience of oppression that actually was a genuine misunderstanding? What GOOD can possibly come from your “skepticism” towards their experience?

    A-fucking-men to this.

  88. Addressing April@67’s comment:

    It always makes me chuckle when I see / hear / read privileged people pull the “you’re too sensitive” schtick on those who are oppressed on that axis, and yet the privileged person will get into high dudgeon when called on it, like it’s the end of the world. (I’m including my own high-dudgeons here.)

    Yeah, maybe you think she was unfair to you, and that is uncomfortable for that moment. But you get to forget about it in a couple of minutes, and you get to forget that white people were unfair to *her* a thousand times for every time she was unfair to a white person.

    Have I, a trans person, been unfair to cis people? Yeah, on occasion. But cis people are unfair to me *every day*, in ways that most of them are unaware of. Every time I buy tokens for my city’s mass transit system because they demand that their lower-cost weekly passes carry a gender sticker, that’s an unfairness. Every time someone misgenders me, that’s an unfairness. The fact that I cannot discuss *anything* trans-related or disability related with my room-mate because I know that *every single time* she will deny my lived experience in the ways that Chally has discussed; that *every single day* I have to keep my mouth shut, that I can’t even talk about Stacy Blahnik’s murder with my room-mate (who is the homeowner and can kick me out if I get too “political”), that is an unfairness that happens to me every day.

    When I have to fear every time I apply for a job, that their personality tests will pick up my mental and developmental disabilities and I won’t be hired for being crazy, that’s an unfairness.

    Do I sometimes lash out at a cis person unfairly? Sure, every once in a while. Get over it.

    White people, get over it. Cis people, get over it. Moneyed people, get over it. Currently abled people, get over it. When your sense of personal honor gets to be more important than seeing marginalized people as fully human and their / our feelings as equally valid as yours, there’s something wrong.

    (In interest of disclosure: I’m white, of middle-class background, currently long-term unemployed, born and raised Jewish, considering Christianity [which is privileged in the US], queer, trans*, genderqueer / neutrois, CAMAB [google it], have multiple physical, developmental, and mental disabilities, am a USian, am a global northerner, English is my first language. Like nearly everyone, I’ve a mixture of privileges and marginalizations.)

  89. I think that what we’re seeing here is that people react differently to the outcome and the process.

    For example, I am willing to look into my biases (or at least I try) regarding various things in the kyriachy. But I can’t get there without the normal process that i use for everything (skeptical cynicism.)

    In other words, I might well change from “that’s not a problem” to “oh, huh, that really IS a problem and I’ll start working to change it.” That’s an outcome issue.

    My outcomes can take my position in the kyriarchy into account: I may have to pay more if i’m richer, or give up somethnig that i have; or (it’s not like I’m at the top!) I may be entitled to something that I don’t have yet.

    But in the process of discussing that change, I find it impossible to work if I also have to constrain the process. If I’m talking to someone lower on the list* than i am, that knowledge makes me aware going in that I may have to give up something in the outcome. But I’ll cling to the right to be a cynical skeptic with my cold dead fingers.

    I think that the number of people who are willing to give up something tangible for the benefit of others vastly exceeds the subset of those folks who are willing to, as it is often put, “shut up and listen.” Personally, my reaction to someone who tells me that their perspective is so important and valid and special and protected that I should shut up and listen to it? Who suggests that challenging what they say, depending on my place in the list, is deeply offensive to them…? Who assures me–without giving any proof or agreeing to any discussion–that they know my perspective so well, they don’t need to listen to it, or discuss it? Who assures me with equal sincerity that (unlike them,) I not only do not know their perspective, but cannot know it? That I can indicate my true knowledge only by agreeing to their requests, demands, point of view, etc?

    I wrote that generally for a reason. It’s not any more realistic when applied to religion than it is to marital relations (listen yo your priest and your husband, girls!) And it’s not realistic for social issues either: Still, it’s the same argument in different clothes when it gets brought out for people lower than me on the list, and it’s equally ineffective, at least for me.

    *Which doesn’t mean that they have to be objectively a member of a marginalized group. It’s all relative, on an infinite scale of kyriarchy, yes? I use “lower on the list” but perhaps there’s a better term.

  90. GallingGalla 10.19.2010 at 9:27 am
    Do I sometimes lash out at a cis person unfairly? Sure, every once in a while. Get over it.

    No. Absolutely not.

    You don’t get to use your own circumstances–sympathetic or not–as justification for treating me, or anyone else, poorly. Nobody does.

    Because there’s that uncomfortable reverse side: are you sure that some of those experiences you’ve had with third parties weren’t THEMSELVES considered “justified” by people who are usually good, and who may have had a shitty day, and who may have done whatever (just like you!) because they don’t care if they just so happen to stomp on you by mistake? No? Goose, meet gander.

    It’s understandable to be imperfect, or to lash out. It’s even expected. We all do it.

    But damn, if you know that you were unfair then the proper response is “oh, sorry” and not “well, you’re in a class of people who piss me off, so get over it and deal.”

    there is no freakin’ way that an attitude of “who cares about mistakes so long as they’re not hurting ME” is socially beneficial in the long run.

  91. Dank,

    I think you mistake (what I consider) to be 1) the nature of empathy or 2) what is required to understand people.

    Empathy isn’t sympathy. Empathy isn’t a shoulder to cry on. Empathy is listening and understanding anothers perspective. Empathy doesn’t mean you agree with their conclusions or inferences…that reasoned interpretation of their experiences…it means that you seek to understand the experience as they experienced it.

    Granted I (try to) practice empathy because I think compassion is the highest value, but has practical applications that would likely make it more appealing to others particularly in advocacy work where many of the people you are trying to help are imperfect (as we all are).

    As an example, I had a client a few months ago referred from a friend who just lost patience. This client sees all forms of touching…a pat on the shoulder, unintentional touching in the metro, even handshakes…to be unwanted sexual advances. She is a rape survivor with a disability and she was seeking disability benefits. BUT the case worker she spoke with was male and she interpreted (rightly or wrongly) his helping her to her seat by touching her upper arm as a sexual advance.

    Her experience…her fear…her frustration…her anger were all emotions that I needed to honor, to understand, to empathize. I had to explain that we probably wouldn’t be successful in seeking a criminal charge since generally that is considered touching where people are assumed to consent but that I completely understood that she did not consent.

    I don’t know whether her case worker was making a sexual advance. Only he can know that and that he understood when I asked if he could trade this case with a female case worker. What I do know is that legally the claim won’t work which I shared with my client. What I also know is that my client was suffering and more than specific legal advice she needed someone to listen and actually hear her.

  92. GallingGalla,
    I think you just spelled out perfectly what’s been bouncing around in my head while reading these comments. It’s like Schroedinger’s Rapist but for casual sexism/racism/transphobia/homophobia/classism/ablism/plenty more I’m missing.

  93. August: Hey Chally, just wanted to let you know that I always appreciate your posts, even though it must be draining to write them, since you always seem to have so many comments that profoundly and hurtfully miss the point.  

    Thanks, August. Really, thank you so much. It has been a long year.

  94. And THIS is exactly why I can’t talk to my mother about stuff that’s racist/sexist/etc. This is what she does! She either tells me it’s imaginary or that it wasn’t that bad. Strangely enough, that’s something I only just realized.

  95. For example, I am willing to look into my biases (or at least I try) regarding various things in the kyriachy. But I can’t get there without the normal process that i use for everything (skeptical cynicism.)

    In other words, I might well change from “that’s not a problem” to “oh, huh, that really IS a problem and I’ll start working to change it.” That’s an outcome issue.

    Can’t you do a lot of that in your head, though, or after listening sympathetically? I mean, I effing love the skeptical cynical lil question everything scientific process, but I can do it internally. I don’t have to do it right in the middle of a person’s sad story.

    No one’s saying (as far as I can tell) that you have to whole-heartedly believe and act on everything a marginalized person tells you, with no time to reflect or gather more information — just don’t instantly be like “nuh-UH that’s not true!” as some sort of dismissive asshole reflex.

  96. Can’t you do a lot of that in your head, though, or after listening sympathetically? I mean, I effing love the skeptical cynical lil question everything scientific process, but I can do it internally. I don’t have to do it right in the middle of a person’s sad story.

    Sure. But is it really a question of timing? If I’m telling a story of some guy who grabbed by ass, it’s not significantly different to me whether someone says “are you sure he wasn’t just swatting a nearby bug?” at the beginning, end, or middle.

    I mean, on the one hand folks seem to be saying “of course you should just be asked to listen and accept; of course you can ask questions. Marginalized people don’t get instant respect and attention to their statements.”

    and on the other hand folks seem to be mumbling under our breath “… so long as you do it right and are in the right group and they are in the right group and you ask previously approved questions and put the questioned party’s interests first and wonder whether you should really be entitled to ask at all, and of course, if those rules change and you have offended someone who is more marginalized than you then you probably should have known better than to ask, and…”

    And then we’re looking up, surprised and SHOCKED even, that oddly enough people are saying that they don’t think they want to ask any questions. Even though we know darn well why. Must we pretend?

    1. Usually Lurking, I think that what Bagelsan meant — and I could be mistaken so please do correct me, Bagelsan, if I’m wrong — is not that you should wait for a more convenient time to ask condescending ass questions, but that you should work through those condescending questions in your head rather than inflicting them on other people as though what’s going on in your head when someone is talking about something that happened to them is the most important thing in the world.

      Because, you know, we all have our reflexes. So sometimes when someone points out that something I’d never, ever considered before is problematic, my knee-jerk reaction will be to say “NUH-UH! That’s totally NOT racist! You’re just being overly sensitive!”

      But about 99.9% of the time, I realize that if I were to actually say that, I’d be a major asshole! So I work through that asshole thought in my own asshole head, instead of not only showing everyone around me what an asshole I am, but also harming them with my asshole nature! Then, once I am through being a straight-up asshole in my own head, I try to get why the person is saying said thing is racist. Sometimes it takes me a long while to get it, but I usually do. Rarely, I’ll even continue to disagree and never, ever change my mind on the topic! (Though even then, I hardly ever see reason to deny people’s lived experience of said thing as oppressive, because what the hell does anyone earn or gain from that, really? No one’s going to feel better. Nothing is going to change. My opinion, when it comes to things that I do not have direct experience with? FRANKLY NOT THAT IMPORTANT.) Then I’ll also work through why it is that I was so resistant to acknowledging said thing in the first place.

      So if you want to trade examples, I’d shut my damn mouth and work through in my head how I know that some guy wasn’t really swatting a bug. Then once I realized how fucking ridiculous that question is, I’d sit there and ask myself why I was so attached to in the first place, why I couldn’t just believe the person telling the story, and what the kyriarchy has to gain from people like me denying other people’s lived experiences of sexism and how harmful that is.

      But hey, I know, we can’t “constrain your process” and you’ll cling to your right to be a skeptic with your cold dead fingers because your process and right to voice your skepticism no matter how much harm it might do is apparently more important than other people’s feelings, or experiences, or space, etc. And you reject shut up and listen. Okay then. But look. If that’s your stance, you just need to admit that as long as you’re clinging to the right to be vocal about your skepticism and refusing to shut up and listen when you really should be shutting up and listening, you’re also going to be acting an awful lot of the time like an entitled asshole. If you’re cool with that, more power to you. No one’s trying to pass a law saying otherwise. If everyone else has to deal with your comments about whether or not we REALLY know what we’ve experienced, you have to deal with the knowledge that we think said actions are shitty.

  97. Usually Lurking:
    No.Absolutely not.You don’t get to use your own circumstances–sympathetic or not–as justification for treating me, or anyone else, poorly.Nobody does.Because there’s that uncomfortable reverse side:are you sure that some of those experiences you’ve had with third parties weren’t THEMSELVES considered “justified” by people who are usually good, and who may have had a shitty day, and who may have done whatever (just like you!) because they don’t care if they just so happen to stomp on you by mistake?No?Goose, meet gander.It’s understandable to be imperfect, or to lash out.It’s even expected.We all do it.But damn, if you know that you were unfair then the proper response is “oh, sorry” and not “well, you’re in a class of people who piss me off, so get over it and deal.”there is no freakin’ way that an attitude of “who cares about mistakes so long as they’re not hurting ME” is socially beneficial in the long run.  

    Wow. It’s as if you read only that one sentence. It’s as if Chally’s post didn’t register *at all*. It’s as if all the stuff that I said about being subject to a thousand indignities to your one, went in one ear and out the other. It’s as if your hurt feelings can possibly compare to Stacy Blahnik’s life – which is the *end result* of the indignities heaped on marginalized people. We’re not talking insult versus insult between two equal people. We’re talking the hurt feelings of the privileged versus the *real harm* done to marginalized people.

    1. We’re talking the hurt feelings of the privileged versus the *real harm* done to marginalized people.

      But wait, are we not talking about my feelings anymore? Because if we could get back to that, that’d be great.

      /sarcasm

  98. Usually Lurking: If I’m telling a story of some guy who grabbed by ass, it’s not significantly different to me whether someone says “are you sure he wasn’t just swatting a nearby bug?” at the beginning, end, or middle.

    Here’s a few questions. (1) Would your experience in the moment his hand touched your ass be changed by the knowledge in this moment that the guy was actually swatting at a fly? Certainly in this moment it might make you feel better assuming you believe the guy. But would it change your feelings of shock and violation in that moment?

    (2) Are those feelings of shock and violation (assuming that was the initial reaction) valid regardless of the intent of the guy in question (consider this one very carefully as it has real implications for people, including for example rape victims)?

    (3) Outside of a court of law is there any reason we can’t accept both views simultaneously? Is there a reason we can’t accept your feelings of violation and his innocence at the same time?

  99. your process and right to voice your skepticism no matter how much harm it might do is apparently more important than other people’s feelings, or experiences, or space, etc.

    I don’t view my feelings or experience as MORE important than yours, or anyone else’s.

    I just don’t view my feelings or experience as LESS important than yours, or anyone else’s.

    So I’ll decline your invitation to suppress my own responses and let those obviously-more-important-because-they-stem-from-someone-more-marginalized-in-some-way-than-I-am statements blossom unchallenged in the breeze.

    The bizzare thing is that you’re accusing me of self-importance, and implicitly accusing me of silencing others…. yet I’m not the one claiming that certain people shouldn’t talk–that silencing comes from you. And I’m not the one claiming that certain voices are more important than others, or (stranger yet) claiming that my own voice is more important and worthy than another’s. That comes from you folks, too.

    It’s as if you read only that one sentence. It’s as if Chally’s post didn’t register *at all*. It’s as if all the stuff that I said about being subject to a thousand indignities to your one, went in one ear and out the other.
    No, I read it. I simply don’t agree with your apparent premise that “being subject to a huge amount of shit from someone” means “not having to ever admit you’re sorry or wrong when you happen to make an error w/r/t to someone
    else.”

  100. Cara: But hey, Iknow, we can’t “constrain your process” and you’ll cling to your right to be a skeptic with your cold dead fingers because your process and right to voice your skepticism no matter how much harm it might do is apparently more important than other people’s feelings, or experiences, or space, etc.   

    I can’t speak for anyone else, including the person you’re addressing, but I think this is actually a very succinct and fair explanation of my viewpoint. I do genuinely believe that. We come at this issue from two very different sets of assumptions, which is fine by me. It’s just interesting to hear someone else sum it up so reasonably within the context of disagreeing with it.

  101. Usually Lurking, I think you are really misunderstanding what silencing means. Would you consider letting it cool off a bit and coming back to this later? Because I think you are seriously misunderstanding what is going on here.

    rice, that is so disturbing I do not know where to begin.

  102. Kristen J.:
    More importantly…WHO CARES!?!If someone is seeking empathy…if you give a shit about them…give them empathy. Who cares if they exaggerate to get it?They are probably only doing so (if they are doing it consciously) because they’ve been denied emotional support (by you or someone similar) in the past.Moreover why do you need to judge whether someone is *worthy* of your empathy.

    I think some people are reluctant to do this because of the increasing popularity of rationalism/positivism/radical atheism. If you believe in an absolute objective reality where perspective is irrelevant, when someone comes to you with a concern about something that happened in their external life, you are less likely to align yourself with them out of loyalty. Your first concern is to try and find out THE TRUTH, to “get to the bottom” of what happened. Someone has to be right and someone else has to be wrong, and anything else is secondary.

  103. kung fu lola:
    I think some people are reluctant to do this because of the increasing popularity of rationalism/positivism/radical atheism.   

    Yes, lola, the atheists are secretly behind all society’s ills.

  104. Cara @ 111, that’s exactly what I was trying to get at (but a lot more polished, I think, so thanks. ^^)

    I mean, I’ve definitely had conversations where externally I’m soothing “oh, that’s fucking terrible, he’s an ass, that’s the most fucked fucking thing ever” and internally I’m agreeing that “seriously, that guy is an ass!” but other times I’m silently screaming BULLshiiiiiit or whatever in my head the entire time. And sometimes my internal voice is saying “wow, that sounds really terrible if it’s true but I have doubts about the veracity” and then I can choose to do research on my own later, or possibly approach the person about their story again (depending on tact level, our relationship, how they are feeling at the time, etc) to clarify*, or I can let it go because life’s too short and letting that hurt person’s particular reality stand costs me nothing.

    *I imagine others might differ on whether this option is ever appropriate. I think it can work, personally.

  105. I think some people are reluctant to do this because of the increasing popularity of rationalism/positivism/radical atheism. If you believe in an absolute objective reality where perspective is irrelevant, when someone comes to you with a concern about something that happened in their external life, you are less likely to align yourself with them out of loyalty.

    Luckily, rational atheists are still free to align with people for reasons other than (religious?) loyalty. Because neither quitting Sunday school (nor studying science!) required that I go through a compassion extraction process.

  106. @Chally,
    I have a difficult time understanding the viewpoint you come from, too. I, personally, would dislike being afforded the treatment you would prefer, and would dislike affording that treatment to others. I have trouble imagining that the notion I advanced is really so shocking or disturbing, but since you just encapsulated, very nearly perfectly, my reaction to kung fu lola’s post, I can’t really complain. I’ll grant that there isn’t any apparent place to begin in responding to such a divide in our personal assumptions.

    That said, I liked the way you phrased it.

  107. @Rice:

    For me personally, all I can see is that you don’t care how many marginalized folks you stomp all over as long as you get to feel good about yourself. You don’t care about breaking a few eggs (or people, rather) as long as you get your omelette. If that’s how you feel about the people that you are privileged and have power over, then I have to wonder why you’re even posting on a website dedicated to giving a voice to marginalized people. And when it comes to something as insidious as racism/sexism/transmisogyny/etc (which literally costs people’s LIVES; it doesn’t just stop at hurt feelings, but it certainly can start there), to hear you dismiss the harm you may cause and speak so casually about perpetuating the injustices in our society IS really fucking disturbing.

    I can’t speak for Chally, but I don’t think she’s disturbed by you because she doesn’t understand you. I understand people like you very well; I have HAD to in order to survive the bullshit that people like you have dealt to people like me. You’re not just failing to be part of the solution, you seem dedicated (and awful proud!) to be part of the problem.

  108. JP:
    Yes, lola, the atheists are secretly behind all society’s ills.  

    I didn’t say that, and for the record I have no problems with atheism as a personal philosophy. But my experience has been that people who are positivist are radically/evangelically atheist, by default, because from that position, all unprovable things (like G-d) are seen as antithetical to clarity and truth. Positivism is an incredibly hurtful position to take in these conversations. I presume it’s very useful during scientific inquiry, but when we are mapping the squishy, ethereal human psyche and heart; not so much.

  109. Bagelsan: Luckily, rational atheists are still free to align with people for reasons other than (religious?) loyalty. Because neither quitting Sunday school (nor studying science!) required that I go through a compassion extraction process.  

    Perhaps I should have said “purely out of loyalty”. It seems to me there is a trend of putting factual, material, hard evidence about external events and “realities”, above people and their touchy-feely feelings. I am very good friends with a positivist and while they are lovely, moral and caring, they often miss the mark when trying to connect emotionally because their priorities put “being right” first and “being compassionate” second.

  110. Bagelsan,

    I interpreted Lola’s comments as speaking of metaphysical objectivists (strong form) as opposed to metaphysical idealists. Personally, I’m indifferent on all the above questions: god(s), the actual nature of reality, the varied ways people fail at empathy…but I don’t think Lola was specifically targeting athiests (in general) or scientists (in general). Of course I could be wrong…

  111. Blast it…the perils of commenting on a blackberry. Clearly, Lola already explained for herself so….nevermind me.

  112. Chally 10.19.2010 at 8:06 pm

    Usually Lurking, I think you are really misunderstanding what silencing means.

    Fair question. here’s my definition.

    Silencing: preventing someone else from speaking. Preventing someone else from sharing their viewpoint. Refusing to even listen to or acknowledge a viewpoint, or pretending that a speaker doesn’t exist. Trying to convince others to do the above.

    Promoting: making sure that someone speaks. Actively ensuring that someone can share her viewpoint. Convincing others not only to listen, but to accept her underlying premise. Making sure that a certain viewpoint gets primacy.

    NOT silencing, NOT promoting: challenging the truth of what someone is saying. Explaining to them or to others why you think that the view is wrong. Trying to convince them or others not to adopt the premise. Listening skeptically.

    I think I understand what silencing someone entails. I think that you folks are talking about silencing someone when what you really mean is “failing to actively promote” someone.

    And Chally: I respect you, K, I really do. But I can’t stand that whole “go meditate for a while, and you’re sure to agree with me” sort of mantra, whether from you or anyone else. Sounds like my dad, or like a religious orthodoxy… “if you don’t agree, it’s becuse you are Not Thinking or Insufficiently Advanced. We can identify Correct Thinkers by seeing if they agree.”

    Well, no. If I don’t agree it’s because, in this case, i think you’re wrong. It’s not that I am going to come to some sort of global understanding, which I take to mean exactly the same thing as “realize that y’all are right,” it’s that I disagree with how you’re framing things.

  113. I am struck by how this world view:

    kung fu lola:If you believe in an absolute objective reality where perspective is irrelevant, when someone comes to you with a concern about something that happened in their external life, you are less likely to align yourself with them out of loyalty. Your first concern is to try and find out THE TRUTH, to “get to the bottom” of what happened. Someone has to be right and someone else has to be wrong, and anything else is secondary.

    Explains this way of being:

    Cara:But hey, I know, we can’t “constrain your process” and you’ll cling to your right to be a skeptic with your cold dead fingers because your process and right to voice your skepticism no matter how much harm it might do is apparently more important than other people’s feelings, or experiences, or space, etc.

    It’s interesting that assuming one can both search for and actually find absolute reality can sometimes lead a person into willingly abrasive interactions with people whose experience of the world strongly differs from the skeptic’s. At what point does unrestrained skepticism cause those who surround you to simply clam up and cut off the flow of differing perspectives?

    Let’s put a bit of a personal spin on this. I know a few hyper-skeptical people outside of the internet realm (and when I say “hyper-skeptical,” I’m referring to the kind of person embodied by the second quote shown above). When I find that I’m in a space where I need emotional support, they tend to be the very last people I consider talking to. My friendships with people like this also tend to be of the “acquaintance variety” rather than close relationships. For me, close relationships require a strong degree of trust. If someone is willing to pick apart my words when I’m hurting and in need of support, this sends a clear message that this is not a relationship that’s worth investing my emotional energy in. In fact, I tend to think of people like this as being… well… assholes. Over time, I tend to share less and less of my life and my experiences with someone like this.

    So, in the long run, open communication with hyper-skeptics tends to become restricted over time for me. I’m going to guess that I’m not alone in this. If you respond with overt criticism toward someone who is relating a matter in which they were hurt, chances are, they are going to be far less likely to share their experiences with you in the future. When that person experiences that form of hurt on a daily basis—such as racism, sexism, transphobia, etc.—there’s an even stronger motivation to stop talking to you. Members of oppressed groups of people get criticized by the majority all the time. It’s a matter of emotional survival to be able to screen out the constant flow of critical voices. Otherwise, the person is likely to internalize the oppression that they face on a daily basis. Again, this is a necessary act of survival.

    Now, if people tend to clam up in the presence of the hyper-skeptic, it would seem that the flow of social data that differs from the skeptic’s existing perspectives will tend to dry up over time. Does this not become a self-limiting enterprise? When the available data begins to self-filter in favor of your existing attitudes and beliefs, what good is this? It results in a kind of confirmation bias where you aren’t the one filtering the data, but rather, those around you filter the data they relate to you in order to avoid conflict with you. Consequently, it would seem that seeking out greater knowledge involves the ability to hold one’s tongue and listen to people on a somewhat regular basis: especially if their experience of the world differs from yours and especially if that experience entails a form of oppression that you do not experience.

    So, when you feel that urge to pounce on someone’s story of misfortune, it might benefit you to hold your tongue and listen. Just take a deep breath and truly, earnestly listen. If you do decide to hear the person out, that person might actually grow to trust you enough to relate more of their perspectives in the future, and you know what? That offers an opportunity to learn. That’s a good thing.

    In partial agreement with kung fu lola, I have certainly encountered this “hyper-skepticism” among a number of atheists, although certainly not all. There are plenty of empathetic atheists in the world, but the boisterous few who take this uncompromising approach can provide a basis for stereotyping all atheists as a bunch of emotionally stunted jerks. I’d advise against forming such stereotypes. As with any group, there are both yahoos and sweethearts among non-believers.

  114. Oops, sorry kung fu lola. I cross-posted and missed your clarification. Yes, I fully agree with the caveat you just related. There are indeed massive blind-spots present in the evangelical/radical atheist approach.

  115. I said this more wordily above (so look there for further elaboration), but given the continuing direction of the conversation, I wanted to restate my thought a bit more pithily:

    (Note: I am going to keep this in a somewhat scientific/rationalistic kind of lingo, because that is honestly how I conceptualize the world, and because I think that in this case it doesn’t undercut my point to present it this way.)

    Consider that skepticism is best applied to one’s own experiences and viewpoints before being applied to someone else’s. From a very practical standpoint, we know more about ourselves and our own thought processes than we do about anyone else’s, and are in a much more credible position to pass judgement on ourselves. When gathering “data” from other people, gather widely and broadly. Don’t limit yourself prematurely or discard information because it doesn’t look like what you want. Seek information that disconfirms (partially or completely) and challenges your worldviews. Theories are only strengthened through assimilating and accommodating new information, and theories that cannot assimilate new data are invalid.

  116. And that comment isn’t directed at any single person, but a general response borne of thoughts that this thread has provoked in me. Thank you again, Chally, for such a stimulating post.

  117. Usually Lurking, I didn’t ask you to go and reflect for a while because I thought that afterwards you’d agree with me. I’m not that arrogant. I asked you because I thought it might be useful to you, and also because you’ve so misinterpreted things that I at least have been saying – for instance, that this post was about me wanting some kind of hyper respect from readers as a moderator – that I think it would be helpful if you’d stop making the thread veer off in directions that are quite far from what is actually going on here. As for silencing, I wasn’t asking you, I was saying that you’re not getting what silencing means in a social justice context, and I don’t think anyone here means that it means to fail to actively promote someone.

  118. Clearly, kung fu lola is either unfamiliar with (or has failed to understand) positions of actual positivist thinkers (like Comte, Schlick, Carnap, Neurath, Ayer, etc.), since they have no relation whatsoever to the lack of empathy that’s been under discussion here (among other things), or she is using the term in a non-standard fashion, merely as a derogatory label for some set of views that she claims cause a variety of social problems (including “evangelical” atheism – whatever that may be), but that she has failed to actually explicate. This is about the same level of intellectual irresponsibility as claiming, say, that Marxism is all about the State completely controlling people’s lives, and hence one should not vote for Democrats. I.e. it’s just codswallop. If ze just has a problem with godlessness, which ze re-asserts in the same breath as denying it, ze can just come out and say so.

    Kristen J. compounds the problem by identifying positivism with metaphysical objectivism (whereas positivism is motivated precisely the rejection of metaphysical objectivism) and then contrasting it with idealism (which is, in fact, objectivist in its most common versions). These things don’t mean what ze apparently thinks they mean.

    Sorry for the derail, but it bugs me profoundly when people toss about murky terms to paper over a lack of argument (or even of pertinent anecdote!) and thereby decrease, rather than increase, our collective understanding of real social problems.

  119. @August

    I found your evaluation of my perspective very inaccurate, and to be honest, I find your perspective to be part of the problem, albeit in a more passive way than you find mine. I think discussions like this lose credibility with privileged people who would otherwise be more sympathetic see their perspectives as being inappropriate, or that their input is unwelcome. That brings about a lot of disregard and cynicism about attempts to help marginalized groups. I really don’t want to try to derail, but I felt I should make my position clear. And for what it’s worth, I suspect you and I want two very similar omelets, but disagree on which eggs need to be cracked.

    And just to clarify, I want and expect that sort of treatment you frame as “stomping all over” from people who have privilege over me, as well as people I have privilege over. As I said before, if I share a story with a confidant with the caveat “this isn’t about politics or society, this is about how I feel,” I expect a much more empathetic, listening-based response. And I will give one when someone shares something like that with me. However, the second I share a personal story as a way of making an argument about the bigger world outside, I anticipate people to call my interpretation into question. I think that’s very constructive, and hearing a marginalized person defend why they felt something was bigoted might do an awful lot more to broaden a privileged persons understanding of that very marginalization.

    And I find it patronizing when someone disagrees with me but just spares my feelings and nods their head empathetically.

    And if I don’t think I’m emotionally ready to defend my reasons for feeling a way, then I take that as a sign that I need to deal with that experience more before I put it up for debate. I believe in respect and restraint, but more I believe in everyone’s entitlement to respond when spoken to. To voice their opinions and ask questions, and offer whatever reasonable perspective they might, which itself is and should be open to criticism and counter-argument. My right to speak is more important than your feelings, and your right to speak is more important than my feelings. I don’t have an absolute right to not be offended.

    And I say all that with the addition that when you approach the extremes, a fair amount of leeway on the above statement exists. The privileging of speech I mention above quickly erodes when we switch from honest, dissenting questioning to attacks. And I think maybe that’s part of what we don’t reconcile: where the line between attack and debate lies, and why it lies there?

  120. Okay, rice, look. This post isn’t about offering up personal experiences for criticism, it’s not about debate. It’s not about placating people who are privileged in a particular instance or educating them. I don’t think marginalised people are obliged to defend themselves in these instances, in a world that constantly makes them defend themselves. And, you’re right, we fundamentally disagree: I think that the emotions of someone who is struggling to exist in a world that hates them are vastly more important than some privileged person’s wanting to spew their potentially really harmful, spur-of-the-moment judgements. If you want a debate about your personal experiences, that’s cool, but that’s not what everyone is up for, and it’s not a reasonable thing to expect. You can expect people to call your interpretation into question, you can want that, that’s fine. But you ought not ignore how that sort of thing functions in terms of a marginalising trend.

  121. Chally said:

    If you want a debate about your personal experiences, that’s cool, but that’s not what everyone is up for, and it’s not a reasonable thing to expect. You can expect people to call your interpretation into question, you can want that, that’s fine. But you ought not ignore how that sort of thing functions in terms of a marginalising trend.

    And the thing is, what people consider to be reasonably open to debate shifts over time. About twenty years ago, it was considered reasonable to debate the notion that homosexuality is a sexual deviation that is potentially detrimental to society. (In some quarters, this is still acceptable.) Currently, it is still acceptable to debate whether trans identities are merely artificial fabrications of a deluded imagination. What a person of privilege considers open to debate is often that which a person of lesser privilege considers (quite fairly, I might add) to be an unwitting, bigoted affront.

    And I’ll tell you what, when I do encounter a person who wants to play skeptic with my identity as a woman (I’m a trans woman, btw), my response is pretty straight forward. “My womanhood isn’t up for debate. Now, please fuck off.” Those would-be skeptics might think they’re only defending the proper boundaries of rational thought, but to me, they’re about the 1000th person to bring up the same stupid, hurtful set of objections. I grew tired of that debate long ago and I’m no longer willing to interact with people who want to argue along these lines. For sake of my own sanity, I’ll quite willingly end the conversation and turn my back on you.

    That’s were the notion of a “marginalizing trend” comes into play. What the privileged skeptic thinks is original, fresh ground for debate often involves the same old, tired attitudes that one faces on a daily basis. It’s part of the overall trend of the majority’s ignorance regarding an oppressed group’s daily experience with prejudicial attitudes. Don’t be surprised if your skeptical inquiry results in a cold refusal to engage with you… or out and out ballistic anger.

  122. Chally: Okay, rice, look. This post isn’t about offering up personal experiences for criticism, it’s not about debate.   

    I believe I entirely misconstrued the objective of your post as being explicitly about discussing whether or not there are circumstances where people should not debate with someone when a personal experience is shared.

  123. Wow. Queue the Twilight Zone theme music.

    In her last comment, I believe that Chally was summarizing the essential point of the OP and further expounding upon it.

  124. In case that wasn’t clear, the first four sentences were a summary of the OP. The last part of the paragraph offered more insight as to why Chally feels the main point of the OP is valid.

  125. I don’t have much to add here except to say that I really liked this post, and that Chally, I’m really impressed with how well you’ve managed this comment thread. It is a pattern, here, for butt-headed ignorance to come out as soon as anyone mentions race or the fact that people of color may understand when racism is directed at them (what? no!), and this post and comment thread has been really enlightening. Thank you.

  126. Thanks, Jill. I think my plan to spend the (southern) summer race!spamming the everloving shit out of our readers might be a good one. 😉

  127. Challym

    I misread you, and I am sorry for that. but I also think you may be misreading me.

    Let me try a different way to explain what I’m trying to say:

    1) Silencing–or more accurately, UNsilencing–in a SJ context involves balancing. If you want to equalize voices, then you have to actively promote some voices, actively stifle others, or some combination of both. There is no way to “transform unequal to equal” and also “treat every side equally.” It is literally impossible.

    2) Balancing involves discretion (often a huge amount of discretion) by whoever is the “judge,” of which perspectives should be silenced/promoted, and by how much. Although I regret the word choice, it’s a lot like a handicap in golf, or a handicap in horse racing, or extra starting pieces on a Go board. If you want a comparatively equal result, you have to bias the process.

    3) Discretion can be used for right or wrong. Everyone is biased, and our conscious and subconscious biases affect how we exercise discretion. Usually, those biases (and discretion) match in some way with some sort of self-interest. So a pro-creationism teacher in Massachusetts who tells herself she is just making sure that creationist views aren’t “silenced” will often end up pushing an overall pro-creationist slant, just as the anti-creationism teacher in Texas will do the opposite.

    And it’s also hard to judge. You have to take into account how loud someone’s voice is… and guess how loud it SHOULD be, and guess what you need to do to change that. that’s not easy.

    4) So you end up with four perspectives about how we should selectively benefit the marginalized group:
    a) there should be NO adjustment at all, and everyone should fend for themselves.
    b) There should be some adjustment, but the proposed amount is too high;
    c) There should be adjustment and the proposed amount is too low;
    d) no amount of adjustment is too high so long as the group remains marginalized.

    5) The problem is that all of those people both are, and self-identify as, VERY DIFFERENT categories. But in arguments, it always devolves to “higher/lower” categories. It seems like the universal perspective is that “everyone below me on the list is a radical liberal, and everyone above me on the list is a privileged bigot.”

    6) So how can it be discussed? Let’s say that I accept that ___ group is marginalized and that they should be given some benefits to compensate. You think the same thing, but believe that ___ are entitled to more benefits than I think make sense.

    How can we discuss that honestly? And if we can’t, then (as some people here seem to suggest) why should the default way to resolve that conflict always be “well, use the more liberal view?” How does that make sense?

    I can accept that I’m biased, that i sometimes know it, and that I sometimes don’t know it at all. But I don’t think I’m an exception; I think that’s true for everyone else too.

  128. I understand that that is what you are saying, and my last comment to you still stands. I really don’t have the time or the inclination to entertain any more derails or to teach school. Can you please respect that we are trying to have a conversation here?

  129. (apologies mods if this is comes under the general ‘thread derail’, feel free to delete if so. I kinda see red when people use skepticism as an excuse to be arseholes!)

    Ugh, it would be nice to say that the ‘be constantly skeptical no matter what the human cost’ attitude is not that common among skeptics in general. Unfortunately, while the science/medicine blogs I frequent tend to be pretty good I’ve heard pretty nasty rumours of how bad (sexist etc.) the forums on JREF and RichardDawkins.net can get (subject came up on Pharyngula the last time ‘are men intrinsically better than women at maths?’ produced a lengthy comment battle, and several times in the various discussions on ‘how can we get more women involved in atheist/skeptic organisations?’). Caveat: I have no personal experience of these two sites, while I’d describe myself as atheist my views are mainly ‘there’s probably no god. Meh. Ooo, cool SCIENCE!’, so those two sites have never appealed much to me anyway.

    The best I can say is that those of us who describe ourselves as skeptics and try to combat pseudoscience and quackery online try to do so without hurting people who don’t deserve it, but it’s difficult sometimes. The quacks like Matthias Rath (told people in South Africa to stop taking ARVs and buy his vitamin pills instead) are easy to go after, but someone like Christine Maggiore, who reacted to her own HIV diagnosis by denying that HIV was the cause of AIDS and founding an organisation that advised people against taking ARVs, are more difficult.

    Skepticism is a fantastic scientific tool, if you claim my protein isn’t essential for viral replication I will tear you apart with pubmed references and my own research. If you claim you have a shiny new medical treatment you will need to show me and the FDA and everyone else the evidence that it actually works before you will be allowed to treat people with it. When it comes to dealing with people, acting like a decent human being means that when someone tells you of an experience, particularly an unpleasant experience, you generally believe them and offer sympathy as your first reaction, not skepticism. Especially if you’re coming from a place of privilege/personal ignorance that means you don’t understand the situation very well yourself (heh, as an asexual I can’t do a great deal other than offer hugs when friends are going through relationship problems). By all means have doubts if you know the person well enough to know that they lie on a regular basis, but I’d much rather have to reassess my opinion of a person at a later date than doubt them when they needed sympathy.

  130. Let’s say that I accept that ___ group is marginalized and that they should be given some benefits to compensate. You think the same thing, but believe that ___ are entitled to more benefits than I think make sense.

    And of course, you’d so totally *know* “what makes sense” because you so totally understand what it’s like to be black / gay / trans / wev *so much better* than the black / gay / trans / wev person themselves. You’re so totally objective! You don’t need a standpoint; you’ve risen above standpoints! Only those marginalized people have a standpoint, and in your grand objective all-knowing omniscient vision, you know as an Objective Truth that our standpoints are deficient.

    /sarcasm

  131. Having reread what I wrote before, I wanted to apologize to chally and any other readers I may have offended. It is clear to me, upon rereading my posts, that my comments were enormously more confrontational and personally attack-oriented than the other comments in that thread. I apologize for that. I do not expect to be reinstated in any way, and that’s fine. I simple wish to voice my contriteness for the inestimably hurtful comments, so much more objectively offensive than any other poster’s, that lead to my banning. I truly, truly, do voice my experience thusly.

  132. Arkady: By all means have doubts if you know the person well enough to know that they lie on a regular basis, but I’d much rather have to reassess my opinion of a person at a later date than doubt them when they needed sympathy.

    Yeah this has actually happened to me before. Friend at the time came to me in tears over some stuff with her ex-boyfriend. I knew the ex and most of the back story and I knew that friend’s tendency to exaggerate. And even if I didn’t know those things, the way she told her side of the story it was all I could do to bite my tongue and not be like, “What are you talking about? Even the way you’re saying this he clearly didn’t do anything wrong!” But I kept my mouth fucking shut and just held her and let her cry because she was in pain right then and even if all or parts of her story were false, her sobbing wasn’t.

    Chally, I know others have already said this but thanks for having this discussion with us.

  133. Chally: Thank you.  

    There’s something inherently profound about being sarcastic, and not having your response recognized as such. There’s some heavy-duty cognitive dissonance at play, and more than a spoonful of privilege. Reread my post, and pretend that “enormously more confrontational and personally attack-oriented than the other comments in that thread” was highlighted in bold, or italics, or somesuch. Then reread it. Perhaps the whole thread to arrive at the point.

    I do wish you all the best though. But I admit, I’m almost dumbfounded.

  134. … troll performance art got an encore? I feel like I was supposed to pay for tickets for this.

    Chally gets the standing ovation, though.

  135. I think ze definitely should win the next top troll, but I fear ze won’t be nominated due to the shear complexity of the trollishness.

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