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Ugh Jon Hamm.

Jill

Image of Jon Hamm in a white tank top

You make me so sad with this:

The 39-year-old actor also weighed in on the brand of sexism depicted on ‘Mad Men’ versus the plight in modern times: “There’s a cordialness that men had when dealing with the opposite sex [in the 1960s], even when they were being blatantly sexist. It’s a weird conundrum. But that’s been replaced with men treating women like absolute garbage and not even being polite about it, which is too bad.”

Yeah… too bad…

41 thoughts on Ugh Jon Hamm.

  1. I think our culture has grown coarser, not just men’s attitudes towards women. Prior times are not always better. It’s just as condescending and unfair to treat a woman as subservient and submissive with a smile on your face and a tune in your heart as it is to call her a bitch with a scowl and a snarl.

  3. This, coming from a man who plays Don Draper, who raped Bobbie Barrett in Season 2.

    Yes, Jon Hamm, that was the very definition of “cordial.” Too bad we’ve lost that.

  6. Trigger warning on the “Joan got raped” youtube link above. I agree: “Civility doesn’t make rape not a crime”

    Also, it’s coming across posts like these that make me so incredibly happy I never got into Mad Men. Yes, the clothes look gorgeous, but it doesn’t seem like the show has any critical self-examination of the plots/scenarios/dynamics/politics it displays. I haven’t seen many episodes, but it’s my opinion that if Mad Men is going to glamorize the 60s culture it could at least make an effort to recognize the very non-glamorous, messed up parts of it in a constructive way.

    If the show has done this, please let me know. I think it’s fascinating (and truly a victory) when pop culture can be entertaining while still being intentional in supporting a non-oppressive word view.

  7. Cimmer, I can’t speak for everyone, but as a fan of the show I would argue that Mad Men has DEFINITELY done this. That’s what makes it such a great show – while on the surface it looks like it’s all about nostalgia and glamour, it’s actually a really complex, often disturbing look at America before second-wave feminism or the civil rights movement. It’s too bad that so many people who like the show (and, apparently, the lead actor himself) don’t seem to get that.

  8. Men always treated women as garbage. Now AND then. Even when acting civilized, there was always that feeling inside of them that women are somehow lesser beings. But I agree on one thing. Nowadays, words “men” and “civilized” don’t go into the same sentence.

  9. His comment “…which is too bad”, could indicate that he meant “…which is bad because it could have been replaced by some real respect, non-sexism and equality”.

    Or am I hoping in vain?

  10. Jon seems to be advocating putting bacon on a shit sandwich. In some very limited way, he’s probably not wrong: you’d rather have the bacon than not, but it’s still a shit sandwich either way. We should just make a different sandwich and put the bacon on that.

  11. Yes it’s true we are now separate socio-political and socio-economic classes that are in competition with each other.

  12. cordial rape…? jesus christ
    i think he’s accidentally substituted the word “cordial” for “condescending”

  14. Given the extreme sexism of decades past, I’m guessing that the 60s was the equivalent of a bubonic plague infected shit sandwich with bacon whereas now we just have a shit sandwich with a lil’ extra shit, hold the bacon, hold the plague.

  15. Some PEOPLE have a tendency to treat other PEOPLE like garbage…and some don’t, regardless of the decade, the place, the gender/class/race/religion, etc. Things weren’t better in the “good ol’ days”. I’d rather live NOW, with the opportunities and freedoms that our society has evolved since the Mad Men era. And with that progress in mind, I’ll keep actively working towards greater evolution for all people.

    Why do we listen to the pontifications of actors anyways? Their job is to look pretty and make the characters come to life, not make grand statements about society, politics, particles physics, etc.

    I like the way Mad Men sneaks in the social commentary the way it lays out the plot…without bashing you over the head with it/spelling it out but if you pay attention and have some patience, oh it is THERE.

  16. The key here is recognizing that Hamm is WRONG. No, men were not magically more polite to women in the 1960’s. That’s a lie spun of misogynist nostalgia.

  17. So in Hamm’s defense, he was explicitly asked what was better about men in the 60’s than contemporary men in the Time interview. So if what he meant to express was something along the lines of “at least the sexist assholes back then were more polite” then that’s probably about what I would have come up with if asked the same question. If, however, he meant to express that the world was a better place when men were polite but sexist rather than crude but at least somewhat less sexist, then fuck him.

  18. Kristin A, that’s how I took it. Had to read the post a few times because I couldn’t figure out what the objection to his comment was.

  19. So, Jon Hamm ‘commenting’ on how gender relationships seem to have been, or may have been, in our society 50 years ago should be up for a hot debate when there are so many examples, that should be hotly debated, of how gender relationships in our society are today; Mel Gibson is so obvious, but let us remember back just 8-years-ago when …”Gregory Scott Haidl, Kyle Joseph Nachreiner and Keith James Spann got a 16-year-old girl drunk and high, watched her pass out, stripped her and filmed their sexual exploits that included shoving a Snapple bottle, apple juice can, lit cigarette and pool stick into her vagina and anus.”
    Maybe Hamm was alluding to the possibility that polite in the sixties was way better than being a politically-connected-juvenile-who-never-heard-the-word-polite-or-how-to-be-polite-in-his-own-home, as is the state of gender relations today.
    Update: “One of the defenses the defendants offered was that the victim would have given consent to all their activity if she’d been conscious”… was dismissed by the California Court of Appeals to strike down the lower courts’ conviction of the rapists.
    Prediction: On to the California Supreme Court!!

  20. I agree with Hot Tramp, which is pretty much why I commented above how I did. Men really, really did not treat women any better in the late ’50’s/early 60’s – Mad Men is all about that.

    @Michael Hussey, the show never argued that Joan’s rape wasn’t a crime, or a terrible, disgusting thing. But actually, back then, what happened to Joan wasn’t rape under the law. So if Joan play acts like everything is fine afterwards, it’s because she has do. That’s what is so heartwrenching about it. Women could be raped under the law, and though you see Joan’s pain, there isn’t a thing she can do about it. And if we are still fighting a rape culture now that blames women, imagine the blame and responsibility she put on herself then.

    Which, again, means Jon Hamm is just so wrong about how women were somehow treated more cordially. It’s odd, because Don Draper the character has so many violent, mean, nasty moments – you would think Hamm should make some connections there.

  21. “Cimmer, I can’t speak for everyone, but as a fan of the show I would argue that Mad Men has DEFINITELY done this.”

    I have to agree with Brett K here.

    Recently I’ve really noticed a trend that if a television show or movie doesn’t go out of it’s way to say “BY THE WAY THIS IS A BAD THING” it isn’t looking at things “critically”.

    Personally I don’t need the fact that racism/ homophobia/ sexism are bad things consistently pointed out to me. I’m watching a tv show, not a PSA. Mad Men deals with these things elegantly within the narrative. Not to give too much away but during the premiere, some of the main characters were quite derogatory to an individual who had lost a leg. I can tell by the narrative (the comments themselves, their actions, eventually blaming the individual for their own mistakes) that they’re being assholes, no flashy “ass” signs with arrows needed.

    I think it’s fascinating (and truly a victory) when pop culture can be entertaining while still being intentional in supporting a non-oppressive word view.

    I don’t think it can support a non-oppressive world view, that wasn’t what the sixties were and that isn’t what the advertising world is even now. However it has no problem showing you how a lot of the prevailing world views in the 60’s were seriously messed up.

    As for Hamm, seriously poor choice of words; especially when his own character has resorted to violence against women. I don’t however think that he considers 60’s sexism a real grand ol’ time, he’s just never had to actually think critically about these matters. Which you kind of hope he would do considering the show.

  22. For all that is wrong with what he said, at least he is recognizing that sexism is not some sort of relic of the past, like smoking in the office and the suits he wears on set. I know, its pathetic that this is a relief to me, but I’ve heard too much talk about gender relations in Mad Men which concludes with, “thank god we’ve left all of that messy sexism stuff in the past.” That being said, he’s clearly a fuck. Which is too bad…

  23. I agree with Psyche. I think a “Jon Hamm is sexist” reaction to this would be taking the quote out of context. He was specifically asked what was better about men in the ’60s compared to men now. “At least the sexist assholes were cordial” isn’t much of an endorsement of sexist behavior.

    Cimmer: Mad Men is my favorite current show so I can definitively say that it does engage (elegantly I might add) in a considerable amount of self-critical evaluation. It’s not just about the costumes and the set design. The narratives deal with a myriad of issues, including sexism, racism, and homophobia, without romanticizing or cheesily demonizing them.

    Michael Hussey: That scene seriously disturbed me, but I felt like it was important to see. IMO it was made to look painfully fucked up, and mainstream movies/television doesn’t typically portray acquaintance/partner rape that way, so I appreciate what they did.

  24. @good girl #13 – Being in a relationship with a woman doesn’t make a guy not sexist, though I agree Hamm’s comment was taken out of context, and probably wasn’t phrased as well as he’d have liked. It’s like if you asked me to say something positive about chivalry. I’d say at least it’s a veneer of civility, but it’s still bullshit, which is basically what Hamm’s saying I think.

    @Lucy #23 – Worse are the comments about how great things were back in those days when Men Were Men and they could get drunk in the office and sexually assault their secretaries and minorities? What minorities? Weren’t things great for Everybody!
    On second thought, maybe the delusion that sexism is over is worse. IDK which is more harmful.

  25. I noticed that fans are saying that they like how the “this is racism, or homophobia” cues weren’t pushed in their face, which meant the show was self-critical, but then someone points out that they thought the actor who made these comments never had to think critically about the show or his character before, hence his response. I think that says a lot.

  26. Perhaps we need giant subtitles that indicate THIS IS WRONG PLEASE DO NOT EMULATE THIS BEHAVIOR for more edifying viewing.

    Quote-wise it could, theoretically, be “too bad” that we’re treating women like absolute garbage in 2010. But I’m sure it will come out at the arraignment.

  27. A couple of blogs have posted this quote as an “ugh.” I understand it to mean, men treated women like shit then and now, but at least they were polite in the past, whereas now they’re both sexist AND rude. This in response to a question regarding, is there anything you prefer about the early 1960s over today?

    I read this and hear him saying he wishes people were still polite, not that he approves of sexism then or now. I think Psyche and Kristen A both got it right. Also, I’ve read zillions of interviews with Hamm, and so I have some context. He’s spoken many times about objecting to sexism and other ills, then and now. In fact, I recall he specifically spoke about how sexist it was that January Jones was slammed for her SNL hosting performance. He was really disgusted the way people are excessively critical of the ‘pretty blonde’ in ways they wouldn’t be if a man gave the same performance.

    He plays a dark character and he’s very clear about that. Don Draper is not someone to emulate.

    Mad Men is very committed to showing the dark underbelly to supposed nostalgia. Even the great clothes are shown to be really uncomfortable. Honestly, it drives me crazy when a show depicts date rape in order to show how horrible it is, and how it was treated as so ordinary, and accepted, and how devastating it is to the victim, and then people turn around and say “That show is sexist, it showed date rape as if that was okay.”

    Mad Men is a feminist show. It shows the consequences of sexism as lived by women and men.

  28. Dudes, this isn’t a criticism of Mad Men. I love the show too. Surely we can criticize one Jon Hamm quote without assuming that we’re all agreeing that Mad Men is terrible?

  29. I’m not reading the quote the way the author is intending, I guess. It sounds to me like it’s “too bad” that not only do men treat women poorly, but they aren’t even polite about it. I don’t read it as saying that it’s “too bad” that men … well, I’m not even sure how the author wants me to read this to paint this guy as a poopypants, but it seems that the author wants the “too bad” to reflect badly on him somehow.

    And I’ve never seen Mad Men and didn’t even know who this guy was til I read the comments, so it’s not like I’m trying to defend him.

  31. If the show has done this, please let me know.

    Examining the failed promises of 50s/early 60s culture, particularly in terms of gender roles, is more or less the theme of the show. I describe the Betty Draper story arc as The Feminine Mystique turned into a drama.

    Recently I’ve really noticed a trend that if a television show or movie doesn’t go out of it’s way to say “BY THE WAY THIS IS A BAD THING” it isn’t looking at things “critically”.

    Well, it’s not exactly a new trend. I remember someone 20 years ago in college doing a presentation that among other things criticized All in the Family as being about virulent racism and sexism.

    On Mad Men, it seems to me like someone had a meeting I missed and the meme is that Mad Men is nothing more than glorifying sexism. There’s also a secondary and frankly quite sexist meme that anyone who appreciates the fashion or design in the show is a silly girl who’s too stupid to understand the themes of sexism and the empty promises of commercialism.

  32. I don’t exactly disagree with him. He doesn’t sound like he’s discounting the third option of men actually treating women with respect. A generous interpretation is to point out that we’re just not there yet.

  33. I noticed that fans are saying that they like how the “this is racism, or homophobia” cues weren’t pushed in their face, which meant the show was self-critical, but then someone points out that they thought the actor who made these comments never had to think critically about the show or his character before, hence his response. I think that says a lot.

    Since this is basically a response to my comment:
    I never stated that he didn’t think about the show or his character; as he quite frequently states that his character is a downright awful person.

    However, I don’t assume he should be an expert on feminism because he happens to play a sexist ass on tv. Just like I’m not going to expect Angelina Jolie to give me a historical view of the Cold War because she happens to star in an action movie involving a Russian sleeper agent.

    Hamm is not a women’s studies major, or a sociologist, or a blogger on a feminist website. Again I don’t think he meant say ‘Yay! “polite” sexism.’ As a white, middle-aged, presumably straight, presumably cisgender, male actor he has probably never had to express himself through a feminist lense. It is not unreasonable to assume he’ll make a few stumbles without personally be an awful human being.

    As a viewer I expect actors to give good performances. The writers are the ones responsible for the material. And Weiner gets it.

  34. @hypatia

    Actually that was not a response to you nor was I attacking Hamm. I was pointing out the fact that on the one hand people say T.V. is entertainment, actors are there to perform, people can read the criticism beneath the story, but on the other hand T.V. and society influence each other, actors and actresses in the states, at least, are idolized thus their words hold more weight than the average person, and we do not encourage the majority of our citizens to be critical enough to dissect our entertainment.

  35. @Michael Hussey

    That was the objective of the scene, to disturb you with the juxtaposition of the rape scene with the constrained, entitled social veneer that glossed the rape over as something they didn’t want to make them late for dinner.

  36. Dawn.: Michael Hussey: That scene seriously disturbed me, but I felt like it was important to see. IMO it was made to look painfully fucked up, and mainstream movies/television doesn’t typically portray acquaintance/partner rape that way, so I appreciate what they did.

    Dawn, I’m not arguing with the artistic content. Example: the scene in Platoon when Tom Berenger murders a villager is disturbing. Artistically, it makes a point about the violence of war. I think the point of the Mad Men rape scene was Joan’s lack of power. If she went to the police they would properly dismiss her claim of being raped. Shows and movies that portray truth often have disturbing content. I loved The Wire but many others could turn away from the show because of the violence and sexual content.

  37. If a cannibal uses a knife and fork to eat me, it’s not any better.
    I’d much rather know that I’m hated and why. There can be no denial that way.
    I’m so glad I stopped watching TV.

  38. Am I the only one who’s ever said something like, “He’s the old-fashioned kind of sexist, like, the good kind of sexist, not the bad kind of sexist, but he can be kind of patronizing, but he doesn’t mean it in a mean way.”

    The layers and layers of sexism there are!!!

  39. I’m confused. So what IS the correct way to be sexist? I can never tell.

    Since I started watching Mad Men, I’m up to 3 packs and a bottle of vodka a day. Surely you’re not going to tell me I’m not supposed to emulate THAT behavior, are you?

    With almost every episode of Mad Men, there is a moment that makes me think “Holy crap! People really DID think that was normal!” Great show, but don’t try that stuff at home, folks.

  40. I’m not seeing it — of course I’m a Mad Men fan who came here to say I don’t see it, so I suppose I can’t call myself unbiased.

    However, when I read the quote days ago I thought, “Oh, someone is going to take that as a support of old-fashioned sexism” and he’s going to regret that phrasing.

    If there’s one thing I know about obsessing on Mad Men, which includes listening to commentary tracks — and it’s normal for each episode to have more than one of those — this is a thoughtful show with intelligent performers. Some of the actors seem to be more insightful than others, but no one has ever discussed the show as set in the good old days. Jon Hamm seems pretty clear on that fact that Don Draper is profoundly messed up.

    One of the joys of the show is how the writing and performances serve to show the inequities of the time without making the show a series of Very Special Episodes.

    My feeling is that it sucks to be accused of being something you’re not, and so it behooves us all to not call someone a sexist over a quote that clearly can be interpreted as condemning sexism as much as it can be interpreted as being nostalgic for The Good Old Days. I say this mere weeks after the traditional media and blogospere hounded an innocent woman over her alleged racism. I don’t want my worst enemy to be tagged with an unfair label, let alone a guy who has always seemed perfectly nice and intelligent.

    The man plays a role written by very articulate people, but he doesn’t have a writer in his pocket and so — like most of us — he might be prone to saying things that might not reflect his true meaning while thinking his meaning is crystal clear.

  41. Jill, I really think you misinterpreted this quote. I think what’s he’s saying is that in modern society has allowed there to be fewer formalities between the genders (i.e. less condescension under the guise of politeness), but that progress hasn’t resulted in men treating women any better. Now, men just treat women poorly but aren’t even cordial. Basically, it’s too bad that men treat women like trash and aren’t even polite about it, whereas in the past they at least were polite about it.

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