School Rejects Girl’s Prom Date

113 thoughts on School Rejects Girl’s Prom Date

1. I’m with the school. The age limit is reasonable and appropriate for a high school prom–it includes most college students, for example, and excludes most people of legal drinking age. It also reflects the fact that the school and other parents may not particularly want anyone ELSE at the prom mixing with said older people.

   I might feel differently if the student really needed the exception: a dying high schooler whose last wish is to attend prom with her big brother, etc. But it doesn’t seem she’s in that category, and if the school makes an exception for her brother because he’s an Iraq vet or a relative, then it is going to have to make exceptions for other people as well. It’s better not to make an exception at all.

2. My wife’s high school had an age limit at her prom. The age was higher than 21, I don’t recall exactly but I think it was 25. Whatever the age was, my wife said the rule had to be enforced at least several times a year. My prom had no age limit, as far as I know, but in the years I was paying attention no one tried to bring anyone older than 20 (in that case it was a high-school romance originally between a sophomore and senior that lasted until the younger’s senior prom).

3. No one over 21 was the rule at my school as well. Honestly, I think that’s fair, although I’m open to other view points.

4. I think generally it’s a good idea to not let growth-ass adults into prom. Maybe they should have made an exception, or given him a special veteran’s pass. 😀

5. I can’t help but feel this is news only because it will be percieved as a “patriotic” counter-point to Constance McMillen’s story.

6. R Levine, I have to say, I didn’t even consider that, but it makes complete sense. =/

7. (deletes request from niece)

8. Okay, this whole thing depresses me.

   “I’m more worried about access to 17-year-old girls”

   He has a 17 year old sister. His 17 year old sister probably has friends, therefore he probably has “access” to 17 year old girls on a regular basis. The difference is, the prom is supervised, and virtually all of the girls at the prom are going to be already paired off with partners that they like enough to buy a formal dress to impress.

   Also, “access”? Remember when that scoutmaster molested a bunch of boyscouts and the parents sued and the BSA said “Well, it’s the parents’ fault for allowing their kids to be alone with a grown man, DUH.” And you know how people freak out about allowing their sons to go into the mens room by themselves because there are OMGMEN in there? And wasn’t there something about an airline not even wanting a man to sit next to a child flying alone?

   Grown man =/= child molester
   17 year old girl =/= prey

   I hate the automatic assumption that the brother is going to spend his entire night leering down the dresses of teenagers. Maybe he just wants to spend some time with his sister.

   I can see saying “No, you can’t bring your 23 year old DATE to the prom,” because clearly a 23 year old who is dating a high school student is…well, already interested in high school students, so precedent has been set, and that person’s behavior towards their date is likely to be different than a sibling’s (one would hope).

   I just can’t see why the school can’t say “Policy is X, but we reserve the right to review individual cases.” College boyfriends? No. Random 23 year olds? No. Brothers home from Iraq? Why the hell not?

   I mean, seriously: Why the hell not?

9. Also, hey, remember when older siblings were considered to be good *chaperones* for younger siblings?

10. I wonder if they would have let him be a prom chaperone. I know we had family members helping out at my high school prom, though that could have just been my mother (since she was friends with a teacher, she came along to help out).

    Of course, then he would be expected to chaperone, rather than spend time with his sister.

11. I get tired of schools enforcing “no tolerance” rules regardless of the situation (kid with 2 inch plastic toy gun being booted out of school, for instance?).

    Sometimes, you just have to say yes. It’s her BROTHER, not a date; and he just got back from a war zone. If he didn’t behave while there, then kick him out.

    Just because you say yes once, doesn’t mean you have to say yes every time. I wish people in power at schools would learn this.

    They could even have come up with some kind of compromise, such as let him be there as a chaperone, and he can have a dance or two with his sister.

12. I’m kind of surprised there isn’t already an exception for siblings. I can see why they might want to exclude someone of legal drinking age, but, as has been pointed out, he’s her brother. If he’s willing to buy minors booze, most everybody he’d do it for likely already knows where to find him. And, of course, these events are generally pretty heavily chaperoned and prohibit alcohol.

13. At my high school prom, only students from our school were allowed to attend. Some people were upset but the rules were laid out loud and clear. This doesn’t violate anyone’s civil right’s and that is the main difference between Candice McMillan and Jennifer Martin and her unnamed brother. I feel kinda sorry for her and her brother but I probably would have asked ahead of time.

14. I’m actually surprised that they let students take any dates who don’t attend the school to the prom. If the chaperones are teachers, they have authority over students; they don’t have authority over random adults, except to exclude them from the premises (and that’s only if it takes place on school grounds). Even given the fact that the guy seems like he wouldn’t be any trouble, I can understand the school just not wanting to have to deal with that shit for a glorified party.

15. I’m strongly with Akeeyu on this one.

    I’m a bit disappointed that the OP decided to perpetuate the “all older men are predators and we must protect our young women from them” stereotype. The fact that it’s her brother and a veteran only compounds the wierdness of the disbarrment, as if somehow him being a soldier would make him dangerous to young girls…? I mean, really, OP?

    Frankly, I’ve come to expect better than this sort of fear-mongering from Feministe.

16. I’m with R Lavine. This was such a non-story to me that the only reason why it would make national news is because conservatives looks bad with the McMillan thing and are looking to prove to be victims too. I see no other explanation. Age limits on prom dates are the norm. Older dates are turned down all the time. Not a big deal or out of the ordinary or news worthy.

    Also I really don’t get why she wanted to bring her brother to the prom at all.

17. Right, because if they’re from the South and the brother served in the military that automatically makes them conservatives trying to advance some sort of political agenda against the McMillan thing.

    It’s news because someone who fought (regardless of your political beliefs or opinions on the war he fought in) for his country was denied the opportunity to be apart of a special night in his sister’s life before, presumably, he has to go back to war.

    The bigotry is really starting to come out in this thread.

18. I agree with Akeeyu as well. The whole “protect the innocent 17yo” seems really paternalistic and somewhat creepy. If they want an age limit for various reasons, fine, but that reason paints young women as in desperate need of protection from evil older men out to take their innocence. Also, in the state I’m in, a 17 year old actually can consent to sex with someone up to the age of 23 (for 16yo it is up to 18, and I believe 15yo is only up to 16). And if that is their reasoning, then that means no older men should be allowed period, including the male chaperons.

19. I think the issue with the brother exception is that yes, he’s her brother, but he isn’t anybody else’s brother. I understand that not every man is a predator, but I also understand the concern of the school and parents who don’t know this guy from a hole in the wall.

    Like I said, I do find myself torn on this. I keep going back and forth. At my school, there was no such rule that the guest had to be a student, and, to my knowledge, there wasn’t an age limit either, though I see why some schools have such rules in place. At the same time, I think any prom runs its risks of sexual harassment and assault – drugs & alcohol, unsupervised limo rides, etc. Heck, I know a group of people who left prom early to have an orgy in their limo.

    So, yeah, still torn.

    Oh, and to this whole veteran thing, I don’t know… To be honest, I didn’t even really think the exception would be made because he fought in Iraq. I don’t really see how that’s the cause for the exception here…

20. @jackie
    I’d assume she wanted to bring her brother because she didn’t have a date.

    This school, buried in the evil liberal heartland of North Carolina, hates freedom and America so much that they’re denying VETERANS from attending their prom! Come on, the school should have a line a mile long waiting to suck his dick, let me in first. Once again goes to show that white males are the most marginalized group in America!

21. I also see this as a bit of a non-story. The school has a rule. A student asks them to make an exception to a rule. The school says no. And…?

    If this were a deeply objectionable rule, I could understand making a news story about it, but it seems pretty reasonable. The school has to be able to draw a line for an age limit – yes, it could be a student’s 23-year-old soldier brother, but it also could be a student’s skeevy 30-year-old boyfriend. Maybe the brother wouldn’t be the type to come in and scam on his sister’s friends, but another girl’s brother could be that type. Maybe the brother wouldn’t spike the punch, but another 21-year-old might, and that would endanger all of the promgoers.

    I think this story has a significant element of Not My Nigel. Yes, some guys might be like that, but obviously my brother wouldn’t be like that, so an exception should be made for him. But if the school started making exceptions for every student’s Nigel, eventually, someone’s going to come in and spike the punch. I don’t see it as a matter of stereotyping 20something guys. I see it as a matter of the school being responsible for the safety of their students at this event, and so they place limits on certain variables to make the environment easier to control. If (God forbid) I were a parent, I think that’s something that would be important to me.

22. Frankly, I’d be more apt to support a lower age limit for prom as opposed to an upper age limit. At least in my experience, it wasn’t out of the norm for a 11th or 12th grade guy to attend prom with a 7th, 8th, or 9th grade girl. Something just feels different (to me) about the power imbalance between a 18 yo boy and a 13 yo girl as opposed to a 23 yo boy and a 17 yo girl. In each case, the girl might be with the older guy for similar reasons (e.g., he’s cooler, he has access to more material goods, he’s more mature) and the possibility of the abuse of control by the older partner and the recourse available to the younger partner should anything happen might be equal, but the 17 yo girl should have more resources at her disposal and be better able to navigate adverse situations. Note, I say should. Also, I’m not implying that every micro-May/December relationship is harmful, but I do feel it’s fair to say that in the majority of those relationships, the older partner will have more power.

23. I’m willing to bet that the age limit includes women, too (and Frau Sally’s comments about the potential for inappropriate sexual behavior on the part of adults would extend to them as well). And I don’t think that taking a reasonable precaution equals “fear mongering.” It’s just, well, a precaution. It’s not as if the school is saying “We won’t allow you to bring a 19- or 20-year-old to the prom,” they just won’t allow anyone over the age of 21. This is likely for liability issues (they could conceivably run to the packie store for the kids, etc.) among other things.

    I feel bad for this girl; I don’t blame her for being disappointed. At the same time, I don’t think the school is being evil. Nor do I think that understanding where the school is coming from is fear mongering or bigoted–and really, veterans don’t get exceptions from the rules everyone else has to respect. Freaking out over Teh Gay is fear-mongering and bigoted–as is holding segregated proms or getting pissy over a girl wearing a tux or a guy wearing a dress. Holding a very reasonable age limit for a high school prom is hardly bigoted.

24. I just can’t see why the school can’t say “Policy is X, but we reserve the right to review individual cases.” College boyfriends? No. Random 23 year olds? No. Brothers home from Iraq? Why the hell not?

    I mean, seriously: Why the hell not?

    Well, they can certainly reserve that right, but acting on it opens them up to enormous administrative and potential legal problems.

25. Well, an important thing to consider is that high schools can have students up to 21 years of age. :/ So yeah. They could be attending classes with kids old enough to buy them drinks. And mind, it says *over 21* not *under 21* anyway, so I am just not buying the “it’s cause the booze” excuse.

    As for the 23 year old/17 year old girls bit, it would be illegal for a 19-year old brother to have sex with any of them, so why isn’t it limited to people 18 and younger? (despite the fact that kids older than 18 probably attend the school…)

    So I am just not following the logic the school has.

26. Is having to get permission to prom an American thing?

    Perhaps it was just the school I attended (in Canada) but all this talk lately about Prom rejection (straight girls not allowed to wear tuxs, gay girls not allowed to attend, gay boys being beaten, having two proms, one white and one black) seems beyond bizarre. The only rule we had was one set by the after-party hotel – no more than four people per room.

    I’m with ACG on this though, a bit of a non-story.

27. “Well, they can certainly reserve that right, but acting on it opens them up to enormous administrative and potential legal problems.”

    Yes, but we (as a feminist community) object to blanket statements and zero tolerance policies all the time. Those policies exist for the same reasons, and they may be legitimate reasons, but that doesn’t mean they’re particularly GOOD reasons.

    Saying “No, you can’t take your little sister to the prom because we’re afraid we might possibly be the target of a theoretical lawsuit sometime in the future,” is ridiculous.

    I mean, we can SAY it’s not because this is the society we live in, and we’re all pretty used to it, but when observed from a distance, it’s absurd.

    1. Saying “No, you can’t take your little sister to the prom because we’re afraid we might possibly be the target of a theoretical lawsuit sometime in the future,” is ridiculous.

       Well, kind of, except that avoiding potential lawsuits is one reason for bright-line rules in the first place. Saying “No you can’t take your little sister to prom because we have an on-the-books rule that no one over the age of 21 is allowed to attend prom, and you are older than 21” isn’t so ridiculous when you consider that there are probably age of consent laws and there are definitely alcohol-related laws that could open the school up to liability if they allow much older dates to accompany students. It isn’t totally ridiculous to have age limits and to not bend the rules just because someone wants to take their brother. That makes it more difficult to argue for enforcing the rules when you need to.

       I mean, I’m also sympathetic to the student’s wishes, but it’s not like these rules are discriminating against people for some characteristic (like being gay). And age limits for prom dates aren’t totally arbitrary — you’re dealing with some number of underage kids, in an environment where the school has taken on the role of supervisor for an evening that often involves alcohol and at least for some kids involves sexual activity. The school isn’t responsible for what happens outside of its doors, but when it lets in dates who are more than a few years older than the 16- and 17-year-old students? There are a whole host of potential problems.

28. James, I don’t blame the family for presenting this story; they’re pursuing a cause they believe in, and want her brother to be a part of her prom experience. I think that’s amazing; I wish I were so close to my brother.

    What I don’t see, however, is a news story. Age-based rules on prom attendance should have military exclusions? Family exclusions? Because that’s not how the story’s being presented. ACG put it well when s/he said: “I also see this as a bit of a non-story. The school has a rule. A student asks them to make an exception to a rule. The school says no. And…?”

    And so the only following argument I could see is whether or not this particular rule is a good one. This is a story for their community gazette; why is it on CNN?

29. Take a different view of it. What if it was younger man wanting to bring his older sister / Iraq vet to the prom? Would he still be met with the same resistance? The whole thing smacks of some decidedly un-feminist and paternalistic victimization.

    Also of interest to me is the class dynamic at work here. The father of the family is never visible in the news report, an odd omission that seems to suggest that this family is one of a single working mother. Also, take into account that most soldiers are drawn from low-income families, and an even clearer picture begins to emerge.

    For me, it seems to be less about ‘administrative and legal problems’ and more about an underclass family being marginalized. Face it, the school probably didn’t want to let a blue-collar soldier into their fancy schmansy promenade. Because he is of a lower socio-economic standing, he is seen as a threat, despite his service to his country.

    Also, we could discuss whether or not being a soldier in the US Army should allow you access to certain privileges, respect, and gratitude, but such a discussion seems almost surreal-ly unpatriotic.

30. @Ben: I can’t speak for this school, but at my school (in Ontario), we were definitely allowed to bring dates from outside the school to the prom. I was 18 and dating a 20-year-old college man, and he was my date. Other students had other out-of-school dates. And I’ve never heard of a school around here, at least, that didn’t allow non-students to attend their various proms. The only rule was that they had to be a date; like, they had to be the “official” guest of a student at the school and in the appropriate prom year.

    And any chaperones at the prom had complete authority over everyone there. (And I don’t think any schools around here hold their proms on campus.) By purchasing a ticket, you were agreeing to the rules of said prom, so even my adult, college boyfriend who was legally allowed to drink in the province of Ontario (drinking age here is 19) had to follow the rules about drinking and propriety and yadayadayada.

    All that said, I’m with akeeyu on the “access” comment. This was a chaperoned event, he didn’t pose a threat, and the idea that the school would have been giving him “access” to young girls is really, really unfair to teenage girls.

31. Honestly I’m kind of surprised this is even an issue. What the eff is the problem here? It’s her brother, for christ’s sake.

    Maybe it’s just because I live in Canada…my prom date (a trans woman, but this was when she was still presenting as a (gay) man) was ten years my senior, and wore a mesh shirt with visible tattoos and nipple piercings. She didn’t molest any of my classmates or buy us alcohol. I would have been pretty pissed if there was some stupid age limit rule, because then I most likely would not have had a date; as it was I got to share a fun night with a good friend.

32. My comment is stuck in moderation, but I will readdress a couple of things:

    What if it was younger man wanting to bring his older sister / Iraq vet to the prom? Would he still be met with the same resistance?

    Likely, yes. Those age limits apply to both sexes. The news story would be if they had different rules for older women–but as far as I know, they don’t.

    Also, we could discuss whether or not being a soldier in the US Army should allow you access to certain privileges, respect, and gratitude, but such a discussion seems almost surreal-ly unpatriotic.

    Being a soldier or a vet does NOT mean that you are above the rules everyone else is subject to. It is not unpatriotic to expect soldiers and vets to be held to the same standards as everyone else. And yes, one can argue that soldiers deserve respect and gratitude, like anyone else who serves their country–including teachers, police officers, firefighters, etc. But no one is entitled to special rights or exceptions to the rules–it’s all well and good if the school granted an exception, but it’s hardly bigoted or unpatriotic that they chose to stick to the rules they instituted.

    It doesn’t even have to be about sex–it could be about just general liability (someone over 21 could buy for everyone there–and yes, he could buy for his/her date’s friends beforehand, but if the school allows a 21-year-old to attend the prom, it’s under their jurisdiction, it’s their event, and they may be liable).

    Certainly reasonable people can disagree about the rule and its specific application in this case. But understanding where the school is coming from is neither bigoted nor fear-mongering–and it certainly isn’t unpatriotic.

33. The argument about what age is appropriate to allow in to prom (my school was 15-25) is an interesting one, but this story seemed more about ‘we should be an exception to the rules because we are in the military’ than anything else. No one else’s 23 year old siblings are allowed to go either. Regardless of the basic rule, it is applied fairly across gender, class, race, etc and does not target any vulnerable group in its structure (over 21 year olds are not an oppressed class). This is not a discriminatory rule, and yet it is being treated as if it were somehow a huge scandalous issue.

34. Also, James, WRT the class angle, I think you’re reaching. Lincoln County, NC has a median household income of $41,421, (for a family it’s $47,752). With the exception of Westport (which has a median income of over $80K), the towns in the county, while not poor, are far from wealthy. This doesn’t appear to be the case of a school trying to bar a blue-collar guy from their fancy event.

35. We didn’t have an age limit for our prom (but my high school had an extensive night program for alternative students, so I don’t know that it could without disqualifying someone in their last year), but we did have the “you can’t go if you’re not a current student” rule. That, I believe, was largely due to school size. It was more important for seniors to get to go to senior proms than X’s sibling or college boyfriend or what have you.

    In retrospect, I really liked the rule.

    Also, James, I really don’t think the vet aspect is anything but incidental. This isn’t Vietnam-era fighting. At that time, yes, I can see that being a concern – but not today.

    Also, your point about him being seen as a threat loses all credibility if you can’t come up with examples of other people who were allowed into that prom over the age limit.

    Also – does the video say over 21? The article says over 20 and cites access to alcohol as a reason. I can’t watch the video.

36. Also, I seem to start a lot of thoughts with also.

37. They could be attending classes with kids old enough to buy them drinks.

    Yeah, they could be–but I’m pretty sure high schools aren’t filled with 21-year-old students. I can see why the school is worried about liability in this area–they aren’t just letting in one or two current students who are old enough to buy–they’d be letting in people who are unknown entitites, non-students, who are old enough to buy. Something happens at the prom (or someone gets hurt as a result of drinking at the prom and it’s because of an much-older prom date/friend’s prom date buying) and the school is, rightly or wrongly, in for all kinds of shit. The prom is under the school’s authority, and they’re the ones that have to deal with the fallout if anything happens. I can see the other side of the argument, but I also see the school’s side.

    As for the 23 year old/17 year old girls bit, it would be illegal for a 19-year old brother to have sex with any of them

    Depends. There are often “Romeo and Juliet” clauses in the statutory rape laws, so a 19-year-old having sex with a 17-year-old would probably not get into trouble.

38. I have to agree with akeeyu on this; wanting to limit the 23-year-old’s “access” to 17-year-old girls sounds a lot like paternalism. We don’t keep women–even young women–under lock and key. There’s lots of very good reasons for that. At the same time, I understand the restriction from an access to alcohol standpoint. My school had a similar policy (although, for the record, it didn’t help).

39. I wasn’t saying that the family is necessarily conservative. I’m saying the media picking up on this is an attempt to pander to conservatives. And it worked.

    Also, I do agree with everyone saying the that OP is being paternalistic with this idea that girls need to be protected from a 23 year old. Really Feministe?

40. I’ll grant you that “access” was the wrong word to use, sorry about that. But I don’t see how the idea of not having people over a certain age attend the prom is paternalistic or unfeminist. Is the issue only with my wording, or with the debate about having older people at the prom? (Asking for real here so I can get some clarity.)

41. For some of the other general comments:

    The older women vs. older men thing – I would think that the reasoning for not allowing older men would also extend to older women. Older women also have access to alcohol, and older women having sex with younger men would be just as illegal as older men having sex with younger women.

    A couple of people mentioned the wording about over/under 20/21. Both the article and the video say “over the age of 20” but in the video, the screenshot of the text from the school rules says “under the age of 21.”

42. The your-date-might-buy-alcohol-for-minors-so-they-can’t-come-to-prom thing seems a bit bogus. When I was in high school people drank after the prom, illegally, and I imagine quite a few still do. My aunt got in trouble for just such a thing, if memory serves, because she was the one who bought her niece and her friends booze. Most teens, so far as I’m aware, either get their parents to get it (better to drink at home under parental supervision, is how the current theory goes) or the teens had their slightly older friends buy it. Whether those friends go to the prom or not seems irrelevant to someone buying alcohol for minors.

43. Damn, sorry, that was “Bought her daughter” not “Bought her neice”, ack.

44. Frau Sally Benz. My comment took issue with your whole last paragraph, especially your last sentence.

    The school may have any number of reasons, with alcohol seeming to be the most obvious. We may agree and disagree with any of them. And they may or may not have a patriarchal bent and it sounds like there is mixed reaction here about if the age limit is appropriate at all.

45. I’m not sure how you get paternalism out of high schools in America, if that’s even a good idea. I’d start with getting rid of rules where you have to ask to go pee.

46. This is on CNN? What? I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.

47. jackie, which sentence are you referring to? The “I’m getting really nervous just thinking about it…” sentence? I don’t really understand why that’s something to take issue with.

    I totally get the “access” thing and am sorry for writing it that way, that’s not really how I meant it. I basically meant: hey a bunch of minors, hey some non-minors, together, in a space that can be very sex-driven to begin with, also a space that can have a lot of alcohol/drugs accessible. I said “access to 17-year-old girls” because that’s what this story is about – older man, younger girls, but I can really see this as problematic either way.

48. You know, I’m a Canadian too, and we DID have rules about who could attend our school dances. (We did not have a prom.) Anyone who didn’t go to our high school had to be attending another high school, and they needed to provide a current high school ID to prove that they were. And then the chaperones would write down their names and high schools on a list of outsiders.

    I’m completely unsympathetic. She can hang out with her brother anytime now that he’s back, and if she wants to go to a fancy dinner with her brother and feel special, they can go out before or afterwards in the dress she wore to prom. I’m sure she was disappointed. I was disappointed at my graduation when there I couldn’t eat anything because I’d just gotten my jaw unwired after surgery. But she’s not being excluded on the basis of hate.

49. Am I alone here in thinking that a sibling as an escort is entirely different than a date? I challenge the notion that this girl must be “really desperate for a date”; I assumed that she is close to her brother, and doesn’t want to take a casual date to a prom (prom being, from what I understand as an outsider looking in, culturally loaded as “romantic date night” in many places).

    I’m with akeeyu. I also fail to see how this policy isn’t paternalistic. This brother has about ten thousand times as much “access” to younger women at the pool hall, bowling alley, city park, baseball game, dance hall, neighborhood parties, etc. than at the prom, in a room full of teachers and other older adult chaperones. Are there any younger male high school teachers? Are they allowed to attend?

    Does this school require dates in order for students to attend the prom? Some schools prohibit “stag” attendees, ostensibly to reduce fistfights. Did this play into her decision to bring her brother?

    I don’t think this was really about any fear of this young man getting access to underage women, nor about school liability or policy. I think the idea of a student bringing a sibling to the prom was just outside the local cultural norms, and that was the threat. She wasn’t being “normal” enough.

50. @Niki. I don’t think my school kept out non-students either, but I can’t remember. It just surprises me that these days they allow it. Non-students at the school as private citizens (not like students visiting for academic or athletic reasons as organized by their own schools) seems like it would be too much of a pain in the behind. Any authority that a chaperone would have would just be to throw them out. As long as they don’t do anything illegal, they can’t really be controlled very much (and chaperones shouldn’t have to deal with anything criminal).

51. I have been to five proms, yeah count em. The last one I went to was in ’05, two years after my own graduation. This school had an age limit of 20 they were very strict about; I had to fax the Principal a letter asking permission to attend along with a copy of my license. My date was 17 I believe. So yes lots of schools have an age limit, I don’t really see a problem with that since prom is supposed to be a high school event. I’d say 23 is a good age limit, that’s the 5-year plan for undergrad.

52. “Some schools prohibit “stag” attendees, ostensibly to reduce fistfights.” …what? Does this make sense?

    And stop calling this policy paternalistic unless you have an example of how they let in a female who was 23.

    1. Also, considering that a school acts in loco parentis? Of course their policies are paternalistic. Paternalistic does not automatically mean sexist.

53. “Some schools prohibit “stag” attendees, ostensibly to reduce fistfights.” …what? Does this make sense?

    I think the line of (non) reasoning is that if students without dates attend, rowdy behavior will ensue. That young people will behave better if they’re trying to impress a date. Of course it doesn’t make sense! But neither does prohibiting this girl’s brother from being her escort. I fail to see how his presence would harm anyone. And in the absence of harm, why not allow it?

54. I’m entirely with Jill. This is a public school and a voluntary event and an entirely non-hate-based, non-discriminatory, evenly-applied-as-far-as-we-know policy. And what is more, it’s being applied to bar someone who is not a student at the school–or at ANY public high school, for that matter.

    So… well, what’s the big deal? I mean, schools can make policies, right? And we don’t expect schools to start listing exceptions all the time just because someone is slightly inconvenienced.

    All it takes is some reasonable–or rational, if you want to be technical–basis for this kind of thing. And while some people here obviously disagree with the result, surely y’all can’t disagree with the concept that schools can set limits regarding what happens at school events, and that one of those limits may address the age of potential attendees.

    It doesn’t have to be about “access” (yuck) to kids. It can just be about “you know, we don’t want to deal with older people, so they can’t come.” And what is wrong with that?

55. Paternalistic does not automatically mean sexist.

    Come again? In theory, perhaps no. In practice? It sure the hell does.

    Come on, Jill. There are still places in the U.S. where prom is something that a young woman has to wait for a young man to ask her to. That’s why this post uses the phrase “desperate for a date”. It is understood that if she was the one who did the asking, she’d be “desperate”. And if she shows up alone (if indeed this school allows that), she’s a “loser”. Can’t win for losing….and that’s just for a school dance.

    I guess I’m just not seeing this as being any different from the worry about cleavage at the prom. But maybe I just don’t “get” prom. I don’t understand why it’s different than any other school space. I have yet to hear of schools that prohibit 23 year old men from coming to football games, because hey, they might talk to the 17 year old women. Why is prom different? Is prom really all about Deep, True Romance? It’s not just a dance in dressier-than-normal clothes?

    1. Come again? In theory, perhaps no. In practice? It sure the hell does.

       Of course it doesn’t. I mean, often times it does, but paternalistic policies are all over schools. I mean, someone upthread mentioned having to ask if you can go to the bathroom — that’s paternalistic as all hell, but not necessarily sexist (although I’m sure someone could make it sexist). Seatbelt and helmet laws? Paternalistic! But not sexist. Etc etc. My point is that the school acts in a parental/paternalistic role — that’s part of their legal duty, in fact. So I just don’t really see “it’s paternalistic” as a great argument against a school policy.

       I mean, I agree with everything else in your comment — yeah, proms and dating and whatnot is all pretty sexist and ridiculous. Ok. And yeah, I agree that it would have been nice for the girl in question to go to the prom with her brother. But on a school-wide policy level, it also makes a lot of sense to not allow 16-year-olds to bring 30-year-old dates. It’s not just that it’s a romantic issue, it’s that the prom is a school event which promises some degree of school supervision (unlike football games, for which the only school-sponsored and supervised part is the game itself and the halftime show, not what goes on in the stands). Same with other school dances, actually — I’d be very surprised if they let older people into those too.

56. It doesn’t have to be about “access” (yuck) to kids. It can just be about “you know, we don’t want to deal with older people, so they can’t come.” And what is wrong with that?

    Ok, so why not bar all adults from attending school sports functions, except for parents and/or guardians? Wouldn’t that at least be consistent?

    See, I’m seeing this as paternalistic because it treats prom differently than sports, or music, or science fair, or whatever. It singles out prom because prom is coded as feminine and romance-y and…..gasp! when girls have sex for the very first time. As if there isn’t hooking up after football and basketball games.

57. But proms aren’t like other school events. Games, science fairs, concerts, etc. are usually family events or, at the very least, open to families. Proms and dances have chaperones precisely because they are generally meant for students. Come to think of it, there were more restrictions for regular dances at my school than proms – they checked your ID at the door to make sure you were a student at that school.

58. Oh, Jill already said the supervision thing, oops. Should’ve refreshed the page before starting my comment.

59. As woman involved with education, I would just like to say that if a school can get sued for something– big issues and little issues– they have been and will be. I don’t see this policy as based in hate, only in an effort to keep them out of court and protect what little funding they do have.

60. It’s not just that it’s a romantic issue, it’s that the prom is a school event which promises some degree of school supervision (unlike football games, for which the only school-sponsored and supervised part is the game itself and the halftime show, not what goes on in the stands).

    Huh? Since when are schools not concerned with what goes on in the stands? It’s school property. Just sayin’….it’s a hell of a lot easier to supervise a school dance than it is a ball game. Less area. Fewer hiding places. More chaperones per attendee.

    In the video, Jennifer Martin spoke of…basically wanting to share an event with her brother. Show off. Be proud. Of herself and of him. Y’know, the same way student athletes want to show off at games or any student at graduation. Pretty mundane stuff. But because of the way prom is coded as the Big Virginity Losing Night, the school couldn’t reconcile that with letting her brother attend as her escort. It wasn’t any fear of him hitting on her classmates. It tripped their “eewww! incest!!” buttons. Otherwise, why not have an exception for relatives? Or why wouldn’t the school allow him to attend under the auspice of being a chaperone—another set of adult eyes and ears?

    I just don’t think it’s a coincidence that prom is coded as (a) something girls like to do and boys put up with, and (b) fraught with *gasp! sexual danger!! (for young women), while football games (etc.) are nice, clean, family entertainment and a chance to show masculine prowess, and thus….a-ok. Certainly not in need of any special protections and gatekeeping.

    The only reason CNN picked this up is because the brother is an Iraq vet. But….if prom wasn’t coded the way it is (in stark contrast to the reality of prom being….a typical school dance in dressier clothes), then this young woman may have felt perfectly comfortable going by herself, and there would be other students going by themselves (without dates) also. It’s probably also worth pointing out that missing a prom is coded differently for young women than it is for young men—and I don’t know how far women’s liberation has penetrated East Lincoln High, but I’m suspecting not much.

    The “feminine” prom requires above-and-beyond the usual school protections and precautions than the “masculine” football games, and this is not sexist….how?

    1. Huh? Since when are schools not concerned with what goes on in the stands? It’s school property. Just sayin’….it’s a hell of a lot easier to supervise a school dance than it is a ball game. Less area. Fewer hiding places. More chaperones per attendee.

       It isn’t that they aren’t concerned, it’s that they don’t make promises that it will be chaperoned, which means that their liability is totally different. I mean, look, I agree with you that prom is culturally coded in a particular way, but football games just aren’t a fair comparison, at all. Football games are open to the public, and they are largely unsupervised — just because it’s on school property doesn’t mean that the school makes representations of appropriate supervision. Proms — and school dances generally — do make representations of supervision, which means that the school accepts more liability for what happens at the prom. Because of that assumed liability, they have a stronger interest in controlling what goes on, and schools are not going to allow things that could potentially open them up to getting sued. I think it’s reasonable for a school to consider it prudent to refuse to allow into a high school dance adults who are old enough to buy alcohol, or old enough to violate statutory rape laws if they have sexual interactions with 16-year-olds (and if they’re at prom, it isn’t unreasonable to think that they might be there on a date with that 16-year-old). High school teachers are mandatory reporters of suspected sexual abuse, too. Yes, in this situation it was the girl’s brother, but it still makes sense to have a bright-line rule so that teachers aren’t put in a pretty bad position based on what they see at prom. An age rule makes complete sense. I mean, would you honestly think it was appropriate to allow high school students to take, say, a 40-year-old date to the prom? I understand that in these circumstances, this particular girl has a perfectly valid reason to want to take her brother to prom. And that is very sweet and very nice. But that doesn’t make the age rule invalid or purposeless or sexist.

61. I’m from Canada too, and I just want to address some relevant differences because people have mentioned them.

    For one, usually in Canada the prom is not officially sanctioned by the school, but by the student council (though at some schools teachers may very well choose to attend). The school condescended to allow us to use the PA system to announce where tickets were sold, and that’s about it. The school can put up a prom but it isn’t a nationwide custom, it’s more than anything else something kids picked up from American TV and organised themselves. And at least at my school, the student council wasn’t exactly composed of the most mainstream kids, so it didn’t tend to enforce mainstream rules. Which isn’t to say they were perfect, but I’m pretty sure nobody has been turned away from a prom at my school, and it certainly didn’t happen while I was attending (the rumour mill would have told me).

    Because it’s not a government entity, there’s relatively speaking a lot less concern for legal liability (whether or not it’s justified), nor do the parents get a lot of say in the “moral fibre” of it other than of the “I forbid you to go to prom” variety.

    Also in Canada, the drinking age is either 18 or 19 depending on the province, and 18 or 19 are both reasonable ages for people in their last year of high school even without failing or repeating a grade (except maybe in Quebec with CEGEP), so the “no-alcohol” thing doesn’t apply. At my prom they quite openly served alcohol, though they did wristband checks (which were scammed, of course :)).

62. Ok, maybe this is just my high school, but they were CRAZY worried about alcohol at the prom. A bunch of kids years back had been driving drunk and died, and so before prom, we had assemblies and a fake wrecked car (I mean, it was a real wrecked car, but at that moment wrecked) where they would pretend to take students out who were bleeding and hurt (they had stage blood/make-up on) but it was all meant to be disturbing and very very DON’T! DRINK! AT! THE! PROM!!!11!!!! So, do I buy that the not-over-21 rule is about alcohol? Totally.

    I, also, do not get why this is a news story.

    1. I, also, do not get why this is a news story.

       I am also very confused about that. I mean, on CNN? Really? Isn’t there a volcano somewhere and several wars raging?

63. But because of the way prom is coded as the Big Virginity Losing Night, the school couldn’t reconcile that with letting her brother attend as her escort. It wasn’t any fear of him hitting on her classmates. It tripped their “eewww! incest!!” buttons.

    Wow, I think that you’re reeeally reaching now. Adhering to a (maybe-not-ideal-but-certainly-not-ridiculous) age limit really isn’t based on some sort of idea that she and her brother are going to be fucking in the middle of the dance floor. C’mon. I think you’re playing up the sex angle too much; sure, prom is often fraught with sexual tension but it’s also just an evening that tends to be somewhat more booze-laden and a bit wilder than other school dances. It’s also often off of school property, which probably adds some complicating legal factors too (or at least a bit more stress for the chaperones and school officials, who know that prom disasters are *big news* more than some random other school-gym-dance might be.)

    If they want a strict age limit I’m personally fine with that. If they wanted to institute some sort of application process, so that people could be like “hey, I’m planning on bringing my brother, can I do that?” and get him approved (maybe get a parent signature or something?) or whatever that seems reasonable too. But I honestly *don’t* have a problem with schools being a little bit paternalistic towards non-adults, especially when it’s the last night they’ll have the little bastards in their hair and which they *really* don’t want ending in a prom-wide booze bust or drunken teenage 10-car-pile-up. :p

64. When I was in high school people drank after the prom, illegally, and I imagine quite a few still do.

    Be that as it may, if there’s even a hint of someone getting drunk at the prom, and there’s an accident or alcohol poisioning or whatever, and it gets out that the school allowed someone over 21 to attend, the school is in for a shitstorm–a potential lawsuit, community blowback, and people asking the admins WTF they were thinking.

    Again, reasonable people can disagree with this rule. I admit I got very prickly upthread because I found it disingenuous that barring a 23-year-old white guy from attending his sister’s prom was somehow bigoted.

65. In 1990 I took my boyfriend to prom, who was 28 to my 18. And that was fine.

    The only trouble came when we started to leave the after-prom party, and they wouldn’t let him leave without calling his house and getting an answer. They called, and said, “The answering machine picked up, that’s not acceptable.” He exasperatedly said, “I have my own apartment. I haven’t lived with my mother for the last ten years. If you call my number, you will get the answering machine, because I am here!” and despite the simple logic of this, he had to threaten to call the state police and report false imprisonment before they would say, “Um, yeah, I suppose you can go.”

66. I took a 23 year old to my prom. I was 18. My school just asked that he sign a form (mostly having to do with agreeing to rules about alcohol) and then had a brief phone interview to reiterate the rules for attending. My date was the oldest at the prom as far as I know, but there were a few other people in their early twenties. Not a big deal. I would favor that kind of case-by-case approach rather than a strict no-tolerance deal (so 23 is too old but 22 isn’t?). Use a bit of discretion, get ‘outside’ dates to agree to good behavior, and monitor the actual event carefully.

    it prudent to refuse to allow into a high school dance adults who are old enough to buy alcohol, or old enough to violate statutory rape laws if they have sexual interactions with 16-year-olds

    Aren’t you forgetting the teachers and chaperones who are allowed in?

    Re statutory rape issue: in my state at least 16 is the age of consent. At a senior prom, there really aren’t many people younger than that present.

    1. Aren’t you forgetting the teachers and chaperones who are allowed in?

       The teachers and chaperones aren’t there on dates with the students. And they’re there in a capacity as teachers and chaperones.

    2. And a case-by-case approach is nice, but again: You open yourself up to serious issues and to liability when you don’t have rules written down and on the books. Also, honestly, what school administrator wants to deal with the hassle of evaluating a bunch of prom dates on a case-by-case basis? That is not what they are paid for, and, having known a few school administrators in my day, not something they usually have time for.

67. This whole deal about “non-adults” is irritating. Like I said in my first comment, I was 18 when I went to prom. In other words, an adult. Thank you.

    1. This whole deal about “non-adults” is irritating. Like I said in my first comment, I was 18 when I went to prom. In other words, an adult. Thank you.

       Ok, but the school still acts as a kind of parent when you’re there, so they do have a right — and, in fact, an obligation — to not do things that may lead to potential harm to students. I understand that a lot of people don’t like this rule because it means you can’t go to prom with who you want to go with. But it is a pretty logical rule, given the legal liabilities that schools face.

68. The teachers and chaperones aren’t there on dates with the students. And they’re there in a capacity as teachers and chaperones.

    Is that supposed to mean something? As if no one has ever abused their position of authority before.

    1. Is that supposed to mean something? As if no one has ever abused their position of authority before.

       I feel like we’re having two different conversations here. I’m talking about this from a pretty legalistic standpoint. I’m not saying that chaperones and teachers NEVER abuse their authority or do bad things. However, unless the school is on notice that the teachers or chaperones in question are potentially problematic, then it is reasonable for the school to believe that those teachers and chaperones will do their jobs, which entail monitoring the prom.

       By contrast, if a 40-year-old dude comes as a 16-year-old girl’s date to the prom (or if a 23-year-old comes as a 16-year-old’s date), you could pretty well argue that a reasonable person could (or should) foresee a range of legal problems related to sex and alcohol. Since the event is hosted by the school, the school cannot turn a blind eye to those things. Maybe it would be nice if we lived in a society where no one ever sued anyone else (although honestly I don’t think that would be so nice), but as it stands, we live in a society where people sue a lot, because that’s often the only way of getting any sort of justice or even an apology. If a school essentially has an open-door policy for its prom and something goes wrong — there’s alcohol brought in by people who are old enough to legally buy it, or there’s a statutory rape issue — that school is going to have big problems. It’s not that alcohol abuse or rape don’t happen if you keep older people out, but it is a question of what is and is not reasonably foreseeable, and what reasonable measures the school can take to mitigate the potential harm.

69. Also, honestly, what school administrator wants to deal with the hassle of evaluating a bunch of prom dates on a case-by-case basis?

    My school administrators have somehow managed for several years now. The forms are short. The phone call takes 5 minutes. And not a lot of students actually have outside dates.

    1. My school administrators have somehow managed for several years now. The forms are short. The phone call takes 5 minutes. And not a lot of students actually have outside dates.

       And that’s great for them. It doesn’t mean that every school administrator has the time or ability to deal with that, and that every school’s legal advisers are going to make that same decision.

70. Alia, I’m really confused about your insistence on this.

    1) We understand that there are adults in high school but they’re not the majority, they’re still students of the school, and they’re likely close enough in age to other students that some of the concerns are not the same.

    2) As Jill just pointed out, it’s cool that some administrators make exceptions on a case by case basis, but that hardly means that it can be expected of all administrators everywhere.

    3) Yes, chaperones are capable of abusing their authority (and students are capable of assaulting other students), but they have much more to lose, they generally keep their distance from students, and they’re surrounded by other chaperones (usually teachers or active parents) who recognize them and would notice if something was awry.

71. Oh, and I also am not sure how this story made it to CNN… Slow news day, perhaps?

72. And that’s great for them. It doesn’t mean that every school administrator has the time or ability to deal with that, and that every school’s legal advisers are going to make that same decision.

    Did I say that? My point was to offer a successful example of something which you appeared to be dismissing out of hand.

    By contrast, if a 40-year-old dude comes as a 16-year-old girl’s date to the prom (or if a 23-year-old comes as a 16-year-old’s date), you could pretty well argue that a reasonable person could (or should) foresee a range of legal problems related to sex and alcohol.

    Not really, no. Again, you keep using 16 year olds (the poor things). 16 years old is the age of consent in most states, including North Carolina where the girl in the story is from. So agree that legal considerations because of *sex* issues are going to vary, but this case it shouldn’t have been. That leaves alcohol. Do a fucking door check, guard the entrances/exits, and don’t turn the lights down too low.

    I’m coming from a position where I really don’t have a lot of patience for the older-dates-bringing-alcohol fearmongering, sorry. The HS I attended had a lot more problems with teachers supplying students on class trips and at outside parties with booze.

    1. I’m coming from a position where I really don’t have a lot of patience for the older-dates-bringing-alcohol fearmongering, sorry. The HS I attended had a lot more problems with teachers supplying students on class trips and at outside parties with booze.

       Yeah, I totally get that — but I think you’re seeing fearmongering where I’m just trying to say, “There are legitimate reasons for this.” I don’t think that if you let an older person come to prom, it’s all going to fall apart. But allowing older people in opens up the school to increased liability — that isn’t feat-mongering, it’s reality. And so the school makes a cost-benefit analysis. Obviously schools in varying places and contexts come down at different points on the spectrum of what they think it’s worth allowing, but it’s not totally out there to say that, for many schools, the conclusion is that not letting older people attend prom is one way to avert potential problems.

       (As a side note, it’s also a way for them to avoid PR disasters. I mean, if THIS is a story on CNN, so too could be the story of the underage girl who goes to prom with her 40-year-old boyfriend. Even if it doesn’t make it to CNN, you’re going to have a lot of outraged parents at that PTA meeting. So I can understand why they would decide, you know, a few years of an age difference is ok, but we have to draw a line somewhere. And that line may be somewhat arbitrary, but it’s defensible. Etc etc).

       As for your HS having more problems with teachers supplying booze, yeah, that is a BIG problem. And the HS should probably do something about that, because that will get them into a lot of trouble. But your high school having bigger problems with something else doesn’t mean that it’s not prudent for other high schools to take steps to protect themselves from legal liability.

73. And that’s great for them. It doesn’t mean that every school administrator has the time or ability to deal with that, and that every school’s legal advisers are going to make that same decision.

    Did I say that? My point was to offer a successful example of something which you appeared to be dismissing out of hand.

    By contrast, if a 40-year-old dude comes as a 16-year-old girl’s date to the prom (or if a 23-year-old comes as a 16-year-old’s date), you could pretty well argue that a reasonable person could (or should) foresee a range of legal problems related to sex and alcohol.

    Not really, no. Again, you keep using 16 year olds (the poor things). 16 years old is the age of consent in most states, including North Carolina where the girl in the story is from. So agree that legal considerations because of *sex* issues are going to vary, but this case it shouldn’t have been. That leaves alcohol. Do a fucking door check, guard the entrances/exits, and don’t turn the lights down too low.

    I’m coming from a position where I really don’t have a lot of patience for the older-dates-bringing-alcohol fearmongering, sorry. The HS I attended had a lot more problems with teachers supplying students on class trips and at outside parties with booze.

74. I’m a bit disappointed by the OP’s arguement that twenty-three year olds are sexual predators by default.

    Yes, wide-age gaps between partners in a sexual relationships where one of the partners is an adolescent, especially below the “age of consent” (which is 16) is something that should set your child protection radar off, but this is very much dependent on context. A seventeen year old going with someone just shy of sixteen is okay, but a twenty five year old going with a fifteen year old warrants further exploration about the basis of the relationship.

    However, it’s unfair to assume that because people who manipulate adolescents into sexual relationships exist, that this is the default. I imagine that plenty twenty-three year old men would be uncomfortable going with someone who is still at school, and worried they were going to be accused of cradle-snatching. Heck. When I was nineteen and started seeing a man of twenty-three he was very uncomfortable when people pointed out he was going with a teenager, because that didn’t sound quite right to him.

    Also, what is the issue with alcohol? Surely a prom with seventeen year old students should not serve alcohol at all? And the same restrictions should extend to all adults present.

    The PR reasons the OP cites in reply are valid points. Perhaps the issue is just that the original point is poorly communicated; although several people have expressed the same thought: that they come away thinking the message is “OMG PAEDO MONSTERS IN YOUR SCHOOLS!”

75. Again, reasonable people can disagree with this rule.

    Yeah, you got me there! I can agree to disagree. The story just rubbed me the wrong way because there was such an obvious line of compromise (let him in as a chaperone, ‘cuz he’s her brother, not a “date”) that the school did not take (and I find it hard to believe the family wouldn’t have brought that up).

    Also, through this thread, I’m seeing big regional differences in how prom is handled—not to mention other school events. Jill, the football games at the high school my daughter will go to pretty much look like a police convention (and so does my neighborhood on game night). Prom at that school consists of a decorated school gym, and a huge volunteer effort by parents and neighborhood groups that the school serves—we’re known citywide as “the bad part of town” and the worst SES, so folks here take it as a personal challenge to counter the reputation we’re supposed to live down to. I’m pretty sure that school would think it was great to have some young man who didn’t drop out of school, who “made something of himself” (yeah, I realize that’s loaded, but that’s how it’s expressed in my neighborhood) stroll around the prom with his sister. He’d be “the good example”.

    And again…there’s the age difference. Not this man’s age difference from the students, but my age difference from most of the folks commenting. “In my day” (cue geezer with a stick, shaking the kids off the lawn), that age difference, at those ages, would have been completely unremarkable. At least….in my time, in my place. But in my time, in my place, there was “open campus”—students left school to go get lunch and/or smoke. There was early graduation (not limited by age) if you had all your credits. There was no dress code—if you couldn’t get arrested on the basis of your clothing, it was good enough. You could bring your own medicine to school and take it (aspirin, Tylenol and/or Midol were ubiquitous items in every young woman’s bag—along with cigarettes and lighters, for about half of ’em). Come to think of it, you could bring any size bag, carry it all day (instead of mandatory lockering), and bags were not required to be see-through. There was a lot less paternalism. High school functioned a lot more like college. Now it doesn’t, and I really can’t figure out why that should be.*

    *apologies to non-U.S. readers, for sounding so U.S.-centric. It really is that way here though, and I think of that as a problem.

76. WHY has the United NATIONS not PASSED an international CODE of prom ETIQUETTE?

    That said, I guess I can’t really blame CNN for putting this on, since apparently we do give a fuck about other people’s local non-news.

77. Being 17 does not make me or any other girl automatically a victim. It wouldn’t matter if I brought an older date with access to alcohol to prom or not, he/she would still get me the alcohol to bring to prom or for afterwards. (Door checks do NOT work for girls with cleavage and garters to stick their flasks into). Also I seriously resent the fact that 23 is considered too old to have “access” to senior girls. An 18 year old dude is just as capable of doing something bad to me with his daily access. In a few months these girls will be in college. OMG guys as old as 40 can be at college with access to these girls!!!! I don’t feel that there is something magical that happens in the few months in between highschool and college that makes it suddenly become ok to socialize with older boys.
    Also, I just want to say that I don’t necessarily disagree with the school rules, I just very much disagree with the assumption in the post that 17 and 18 year old girls need to be somehow protected from a 23 year old boy just because he is 23.

78. High school functioned a lot more like college. Now it doesn’t, and I really can’t figure out why that should be.

    You don’t have to be that old to have experienced that. I’m only 30, and my small town Oregon high school in the mid 90s wasn’t as bad as things are nowadays (though near the end things started to get more paternalistic).

    I can understand *why* things are the way they are (fear of lawsuits) but that doesn’t mean that its right.

79. While I imagine the rule was put in place because a concern about alcohol, I’m getting really sick of schools policing students’ partners.

    At this rate, I think schools should ban dates for dances and only students attending that school can attend.

    I never had a date for a dance unless you count my senior prom—my best friend and I went with each other’s cousins–my dates or non-dates don’t fit the paradigm of what prom is supposed to be.

80. I don’t see why this is news either. When I went to prom, they wouldn’t play any of my song requests, and then a girl called me a wrist cutter….maybe I should have called CNN?

81. For me, it seems to be less about ‘administrative and legal problems’ and more about an underclass family being marginalized. Face it, the school probably didn’t want to let a blue-collar soldier into their fancy schmansy promenade. Because he is of a lower socio-economic standing, he is seen as a threat, despite his service to his country.

    Yup, they didn’t want to let a blue-collar guy come to prom…but they were fine with his sister? Who is from the same socioeconomic background? This makes no sense.

82. I checked out East Lincoln High School on GreatSchools, and it says they have 902. Assuming that a quarter of them are seniors, that’s 225 students to take responsibility for. And if every student wanted an exception to the rule, that’s 225 permission slips or phone calls or visits to the principal’s office to show why this above-the-knee gown isn’t really all that revealing. I don’t think it’s unreasonable for a school to say, “No exceptions! Sorry, we don’t have the time and resources to do exceptions! If we had the time to background-check your brother and every other 23-year-old some kid wanted to take to prom, we would, but since we don’t, no exceptions!”

    At my high school, prom was a big deal. It was held in the ballroom at a local convention center – heavy decorations, an official photographer, the works. And that was a big responsibility for the administrators. The same responsibility they had for the students at school – a controlled environment – was now transferred to an uncontrolled environment. So it would be reasonable to assume that they’d crack down a little harder for an off-campus event than an on-campus one.

    And, yes, prom tends to be a more sexualized event than your average science fair – every high-school prom movie going back donkey’s ears has had a couple who loses their virginity on prom night, a jackass who spikes the punch, a macho fistfight on the dance floor, the class slut coming in with a 30-year-old greaser date, and eventually a romantic slow dance for two students who’d thought they’d graduate without finding true love. My prom certainly wasn’t like that, but we all went into it expecting it to be like that, and that’s something administrators have to prepare for.

    Football, on the other hand, didn’t offer nearly the same challenges. The city had two football stadiums (stadia?), and so no football game ever took place on any one high school’s campus. To my knowledge, the two teams split the cost of hiring security (off-duty cops, usually), the “home team’s” athletic association took care of concessions, and the schools themselves held little to no liability.

83. Wow, I have to tl;dr myself.

84. Why does everyone keep bringing up the fact that he served in Iraq as an argument for, or one of the reasons why, he should have been able to take his little sister? What does that have to do with anything? Okay, he was away for a long time, that’s a good reason to make an exception to this rule, among a few others. But just because he’s a veteran or a member of the military? No, being employed by the military does not grant a person access to everything. And it shouldn’t. ffs.

    Anyway, my take on this: Rules are rules, and it makes absolute sense to prohibit high school students (where virtually everyone is under the legal drinking age in the US) from bringing anyone who is of legal drinking age to prom as a date. OTOH, not allowing her to take her brother in this particular instance (he was away for so long and likely to need to leave again soon) is violating the spirit of the law and does no good whatsoever. They should have been able to go together.

85. ACG, it’s a bit of a straw man, isn’t it?

    Not all students eligible to go to prom actually go. Of those who do, the vast majority go with fellow students, which would knock the potential exception applications waaaaaaay down.

86. Well personally I’m glad there weren’t any 30 year olds, or even 25 year olds, at my prom. It’s a highschool event, what’s wrong with it being just for highschoolers?

87. “No you can’t take your little sister to prom because we have an on-the-books rule that no one over the age of 21 is allowed to attend prom, and you are older than 21″ isn’t so ridiculous when you consider that there are probably age of consent laws and there are definitely alcohol-related laws that could open the school up to liability if they allow much older dates to accompany students.

    Though I understand your point, there are 2 issues:

    1. On alcohol, a reason why this is such an issue is because of the 21 drinking rule and the puritanical climate we have regarding alcohol consumption in the US. Personally, I feel this law not only effectively creates a group of second-class citizens(18-20), but is also quite useless IME in preventing alcohol access in that group while also failing to promote responsible drinking. The puritanical paternalistic attitude in this regard actually exacerbates the binge drinking I saw on campuses and at some 21 birthday bashes because alcohol is the forbidden fruit that many adolescents and 18-20 year olds must have to prove they are “true adults. Since even parents can be prosecuted for allowing their kids to drink, many young adults have little/no family education in how to drink responsibly until they hit college or wait till 21 when they somehow gained their knowledge of their limits and drinking responsibility as if by magic! /*sarcasm

    2. As for violation of age of consent laws or desire to prevent may-december type relationships, the former is dependent on the minimum age set and both will still be a serious concern for these students once they head off to higher ed or the working world. There are also plenty of students who started college before turning 18, including yours truly and several dozens of college classmates and acquaintances. Heck, I knew of one 15 year old from my high school who graduated and went straight into grad school, a woman who started college at 14, and an undergrad classmate who GRADUATED college at 17. Though my undergrad was largely populated by traditional 18-22 year olds, we did have quite a few non-traditional students, including a couple of dudes who were mid-40s and up when they STARTED.

88. A lot of these comments seem to boil down to, “Rules suck!” Blanket statements, blah, zero-tolerance, blah blah, bright-line, blah. And rules do suck. They hold us all to the same standards, regardless of personal circumstances. But here’s one thing we all have to keep in mind: Despite what our mothers always told us, we are not special snowflakes who deserve to be treated as individuals. We are one 6.7-billionth of the people on this planet. Those of us who live in the U.S. are one 307-millionth of our nation’s population. Jennifer Martin is one 902nd of her school’s student body.

    Governing bodies establish rules to ensure that everyone receives the same treatment; to give the governed an idea of what to expect and what is expected of them; and to cut down on the chaos associated with subjectively evaluating every single issue that comes up.

    It’s not a strawman to point out that the administration at East Lincoln High School has more than 200 students to deal with at prom time. It’s not out of line for them to lay down rules that help them keep their students safe and protect the school from legal issues. If they entertain an exception for Jennifer Martin, they have to be prepared to do the same for every one of her classmates. And the more exceptions they make, the weaker the rule becomes and the more likely it is that something will slip through and threaten that safety and protection.

    I’m really sorry Jennifer Martin didn’t get to go to prom with her brother. But this wasn’t a violation of her civil liberties, it wasn’t something she didn’t know about beforehand, and it wasn’t a rule that was imposed on her and no one else. She said to the administrators, “This is what makes me special, and this is why you should allow me to do something no one else gets to do.” And the administrators said that no, she doesn’t get to have privileges the other students don’t. And that should have been the end of it.

89. “If they entertain an exception for Jennifer Martin, they have to be prepared to do the same for every one of her classmates. And the more exceptions they make, the weaker the rule becomes and the more likely it is that something will slip through and threaten that safety and protection.”

    The idea that 200 students are going to file for exceptions next year if they let one chick take her brother to prom? Yeah, I really *do* think that’s a straw man.

    I think the “but the alcohol!” argument put forth upthread is kind of weak. I didn’t know anybody in high school who didn’t have access to alcohol, but I feel confident that the vast majority of them didn’t get it from somebody’s brother at the prom.

    A lot of commenters have mentioned that they were allowed to bring older dates to the prom, or that their high schools had policies in place to request exceptions. Nobody checked IDs at my prom, so the ‘safety’ aspect doesn’t really hold water.

    Also, I’m standing by my assertion that 17 year olds with dates at a chaperoned dance aren’t so delicate that their personal safety is threatened by a classmate’s 23 year old brother.

    We can say “No drugs at school!” and still find it reasonable for asthmatics to carry inhalers and diabetics to carry insulin. I don’t think it’s that difficult to say “No dates over X years old, but if you want to bring a family member…wow, you want to bring a family member? to your prom? Isn’t that kind of dorky? Um. Well, knock yourself out.” My two year olds understand that some rules have exceptions.

    I STILL find it depressing that being afraid of possible future lawsuits is the standard by which we all live our lives. As I said before, we think it’s reasonable because we’re used to it, but not too long ago, if people made all of their personal decisions based on the fear of the potential objections of strangers in the future, we’d call them paranoid, and possibly delusional.

    Also, Lawn Darts never would have been invented.

90. I wouldn’t see a reason for a ban even if he was a 23-year-old boyfriend instead of a brother. My sister attended prom (and she would have been seventeen at the time) with a 26-year-old. I attended with a 20-year-old. My school’s rule was that outsiders had to submit some documentation (I think it was like a form with name and address or something minor like that) but that was it. It is no one’s business who these children are dating, and if they misbehave (really? If anything, anyone 18 or over would have less incentive to misbehave, because holy crap, getting the cops called on you when you’re an adult IS A HUGE DEAL) it can be dealt with just as well as if anyone else were to misbehave.

    If the kids are fine with it, and the parents are fine with it, it really should not be an issue.

91. If the kids are fine with it, and the parents are fine with it, it really should not be an issue.

    Well, you would really have to poll *all* the other students, and *all* of their parents to make sure everyone was fine with it. And to do that 100 times before prom? Waste of time — she can go home and dance with her brother afterwards, or skip prom, or any number of things. “Teenager does not get her way, unhappy!” isn’t news.

92. My school’s administrator’s were notoriously racist, and thought all of the black and brown kids were in gangs and all of the white kids deserved to be in AP classes regardless of their actual scholastic enthusiasm or background. In general, in my experience, leaving anything up to their discretion was a very bad thing. Bright line rules exist because discretion in this society is generally abusive. On what basis are these people supposedly objectively evaluating dates? Teenage me would have gotten over it if my potential prom date had been excluded on the basis of a blanket rule that applied to everybody, but if my prom date was evaluated and rejected as appropriate as an individual, I would probably still be humilated, angry, and feeling even more racially alienated from the traditional high school experience than I already do.

93. Well, you would really have to poll *all* the other students, and *all* of their parents to make sure everyone was fine with it. And to do that 100 times before prom? Waste of time — she can go home and dance with her brother afterwards, or skip prom, or any number of things. “Teenager does not get her way, unhappy!” isn’t news.

    This micromanaging mentality among parents of high school students and the students’ increasing seeming acquiescence is probably one factor in why friends who teach/TA undergrad courses have had to deal with an increasing trend of 18-22+ students who are excessively dependent on their parents for making practically all of their decisions….even in areas that were once considered exclusively the domain/responsibility of the student just 15 years before such as getting oneself awake for early morning classes, registering/choosing classes, and grade disputes…all tasks that undergrads back when I was an undergrad…including the 13 and 14 year old first years were expected to handle themselves without parents. La Lubu is correct….we are effectively infantilising our high school students…..

    1. This micromanaging mentality among parents of high school students and the students’ increasing seeming acquiescence is probably one factor in why friends who teach/TA undergrad courses have had to deal with an increasing trend of 18-22+ students who are excessively dependent on their parents for making practically all of their decisions…

       Well, don’t you think the “I’m a special snowflake and should be an exception to the rule” is part of this? I mean, look, there was an across-the-board rule that no one over the age of 21 gets to come to prom, which is a high school event. This girl is bent out of shape because she wants her brother to come. I mean, I personally saw a lot of that kind of entitlement in college too — kids who missed deadlines and thought that they were entitled to extensions, etc.

94. Well, you would really have to poll *all* the other students, and *all* of their parents to make sure everyone was fine with it. And to do that 100 times before prom? Waste of time — she can go home and dance with her brother afterwards, or skip prom, or any number of things. “Teenager does not get her way, unhappy!” isn’t news.

    This micromanaging mentality among parents of high school students and the students’ increasing seeming acquiescence is probably one factor in why friends who teach/TA undergrad courses have had to deal with an increasing trend of 18-22+ students who are excessively dependent on their parents for making practically all of their decisions….even in areas that were once considered exclusively the domain/responsibility of the student just 15 years before such as getting oneself awake for early morning classes, registering/choosing classes, and grade disputes…all tasks that undergrads back when I was an undergrad…including the 13 and 14 year old first years were expected to handle themselves without parents. La Lubu is correct….we are effectively infantilizing our high school students…..

95. Re: Why it’s news

    Look, I’m as critical of the military’s record on woman, minorities, gays and occupied persons, as the next feminist but that doesn’t mean I look at individual members of the military with suspicion. Those kids (and for the most part they are just kids) are far from home enduring Goddess only knows what type of psychological trauma and risking their lives in a pointless never-ending war that *we* started and *they* pay for. So, if and when they come home, in my opinion, they are owed (1) prompt access to the best medical care our society has to offer including mental health care with out stigmatization, (2) safe housing, (3) quality education, (4) employment, and (5) just a smidge of gratitude.

    It’s not really news anymore that we’re failing to provide 1-4. But it is news that we can’t even manage 5.

96. Despite what our mothers always told us, we are not special snowflakes who deserve to be treated as individuals.

    “Our” mothers? Who you talkin’ to? You got a mouse in your pocket? This isn’t how I was raised, it isn’t how several folks commenting on this thread were raised, nor is it (IMO—which is limited by socioeconomic class and geography) what most parents are telling their children.

    Look, I’m not at all opposed to rules. Sensible rules. Rules that serve a purpose other than asserting authority and control for the hell of it. There was absolutely no threat to anyone’s health or safety to have her brother attend the prom with her. Is it the end of the world that she couldn’t attend the prom with her brother? No…..it’s just part and parcel of the mentality that says teenagers cannot bring silverware to school in their lunchbag, because OMG they might knife someone. They can’t leave campus to go to lunch, because OMG they might skip school. They can’t bring over-the-counter meds to school because OMG drug abuse.

    In other words, where is the common sense? Fear of this young man supplying alcohol to students? Are you kidding me? Is he the only older sibling in the entire school?! And….where is the open bar at prom that presents such an obstacle? Most proms are held at school; school budgets can’t accommodate expensive rentals elsewhere. What am I missing?

    I’m Someone’s Mother (lest anyone bring up “wait ’till you have kids!”), and I’m increasingly frustrated with the expectation that teenagers are supposed to be helpless and incapable of making their own basic decisions. I’m bothered by schools acting as loco parentis helicopteris, because I think it is damaging to the proper intellectual and psychological development of young people. I have a serious problem with “zero tolerance” and “bright line” rules that require bullied students to suffer beatdowns, because if they defend themselves, or attempt to defend themselves, they get arrested too—they are considered just as guilty as their attackers. I’m tired of seeing students get suspended when they get caught with a nail clipper, because the nail clipper has a one-inch blade that could OMG be used to knife someone. I’m tired of people in a position of authority refusing to take the responsibility of that authority by engaging their critical thinking skills.

    Is my world really so different? In my world, 16-17-18 year old high school students regularly bump elbows with people in their early twenties. The social circles cross quite a bit. When I was 16, I already graduated—that was possible back in the early 80s. It won’t be a possibility for my daughter, unless she drops out, and takes the GED. What’s wrong with this picture?

    Ask yourself this: why is it abhorrent that a 23-year old be at a high school prom, but the same age-mixing is ok at movie theatres, restaurants, concerts, parks, sports arenas, backyard barbecues, block parties, pool halls, bowling alleys, video/laser tag arcades….and for that matter, work? Huh? I’ll bet at least half of those students attending prom at that high school have after-school and weekend jobs where they get plenty of chance to socialize with people over 21. There aren’t any chaperones there!

    It’s probably also worth mentioning that for all the worry about “what will parents think?” if a 23 year old (brother) is present at the prom….some of the students attending prom may already be parents themselves. Just…food for thought.

97. I’m increasingly frustrated with the expectation that teenagers are supposed to be helpless and incapable of making their own basic decisions. I’m bothered by schools acting as loco parentis helicopteris, because I think it is damaging to the proper intellectual and psychological development of young people. I have a serious problem with “zero tolerance” and “bright line” rules that require bullied students to suffer beatdowns, because if they defend themselves, or attempt to defend themselves, they get arrested too—they are considered just as guilty as their attackers. I’m tired of seeing students get suspended when they get caught with a nail clipper, because the nail clipper has a one-inch blade that could OMG be used to knife someone. I’m tired of people in a position of authority refusing to take the responsibility of that authority by engaging their critical thinking skills.

    Seconded, especially considering what happens with the majority of teens raised in such environments once they hit college campuses and/or the working world…..my college prof/TA friends are witnesses/affected parties of the messes which result from this…such as parents throwing temper tantrums because their darling child(dren) didn’t get the B+ or higher grade s(he) “deserves so much”.

    As for the lack of exercising critical thinking skills, that’s actually a feature, not a bug in many bureaucracies….especially in education that IME tend to be staffed mostly by people who were themselves mediocre overly conformist students when they were in college or K-12 and were pissed at those of us who pushed the envelope academically or otherwise* due to a mix of childhood-based jealousy and the desire to safeguard their jobs while doing the absolute bare minimum possible…even when that falls short of their actual job responsibilities.

    * This was a common problem among many mediocre/crappy teachers/admins at my high school who were assigned because they had more seniority and wanted a “plum assignment” to bide their time until retirement. Not good when they are tasked with teaching in a school full of academic overachievers who tend to rankle at mindless petty authoritarianism and the behaviors and policies they tend to exhibit. Saddest thing is, they were still far better than most K-12 schools back when I was in high school….and far better than what seems to be happening at many US high schools these days.

    The social circles cross quite a bit. When I was 16, I already graduated—that was possible back in the early 80s. It won’t be a possibility for my daughter, unless she drops out, and takes the GED. What’s wrong with this picture?

    I wasn’t legally old enough to vote or go to 18+ venues near campus until my sophomore year IN COLLEGE.

    Moreover, there were quite a few college classmates and acquaintances who started undergrad when they were younger than 15. Heck, the college classmate who GRADUATED COLLEGE at 17 was one year ahead of me and was sometimes guiding me on the finer points of post-war Japanese politics and academic research.

98. There isn’t an exception for immediate family members?

    I didn’t go to either my junior prom or my senior ball. I didn’t go to any school dances at all. I was socially inept, had never dated, and was neither asked nor knew any boys I would consider asking.

    I would have liked it if it was appropriate to go with either my brother or my father. It would have let me attend school events that I felt I wasn’t qualified to attend because of my social ineptitude.

    The whole point of having chaperons at dances is to keep anything inappropriate from happening, no matter who is attending. Why have chaperons, if you’re going to exclude people from attending out of fear of inappropriateness? An older sibling or parent would generally be closer to being an extra chaperon than a risk.

    Certainly the teenage girl in question is less at risk from her brother than from a random young man in her age group. And shifting the emphasis of the prom from heterosexual dating, or dating in general, to simply having a good time with your friends and people you like can only be a good thing.

    Let the kids have fun, without the expectation that the fun must have a sexual component or a requirement of a certain level of social skill.

99. I’ll add that, at nearly 40 years old, I’m still socially inept. And I still find myself in awkward situations, where the expectation is that people will be partnered in some way. Wedding invitations come complete written for “and date” with the assumption that you’ll find one. Likewise things like work-related award dinners. And social invitations in general – it’s awfully awkward to be the one person to show up unaccompanied, to make the table-seating odd-numbered, to see the one open seat that is somehow your fault for showing up alone when you’re assumed to show up as part of a pair.

100. Juniper Elliot 4.21.2010 at 2:26 pm
     “This school, buried in the evil liberal heartland of North Carolina, hates freedom and America so much that they’re denying VETERANS from attending their prom! Come on, the school should have a line a mile long waiting to suck his dick, let me in first. Once again goes to show that white males are the most marginalized group in America!”

     REALLY??? LIBERAL HEARTLAND of North Carolina? Lincoln County??? You have GOT to be kidding me!!! Have you ever been to Lincoln County before? The county that has an overwhelming majority of Republicans on their commission, and one of the most conservative representatives in the US Congress!?!?!

     Come on man, do some research before you fly off making moronic comments. I live in this so called “Liberal Heartland” and let me tell you, the CONSERVATIVES far outweigh the liberals in this region.

     Furthermore, schools have the right to protect their students. In this day and age, kids need reinforcement of policies. You people love to complain about how kids have no values! How can we ever teach these kids to obey laws if they can’t follow a simple school rule. Schools face enough liability issues as it is, maybe you should trust people who are obviously smarter than you to make the right decisions for the vast majority of students at a school.

     This story was not newsworthy. It’s time that local news agencies such as WBTV start to respect the integrity of the school administration instead of posting stories that undermine their authority.

101. First off to anyone and everyone that commented on this story and was in favor and otherwise open minded to this girl going to prom with whomever she chose: Kudos to you for being an individual rather than some lame pied piper following loser… Who are you lamers to judge who goes to prom with whom since a prom is supposed to be a magical moment for any girl and most guys and who better to share that with than someone you truly love and care about in your heart? The moon and stars are beyond measure in age yet you do not desire them any less because of that age… For most part many if not most 16-17 year old girls are far more evolved in their emotional and mental values than we give them credit for and they know what love and care is regardless of what someone says different …ergo,..they are far capable of being in love and knowing hat that means unlike you bunch of “adult” hypocrites that play with love like its simply a chess piece you need to use in order to get better position on board! You so called adults are the ones that are wholly lost and otherwise ignorant of love and all that it means so before you judge others judge yourself!!

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