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The High Cost of Poverty

This won’t surprise people who have ever been poor, but poor people pay more for things that middle-class people take for granted.

Poverty 101: We’ll start with the basics.

Like food: You don’t have a car to get to a supermarket, much less to Costco or Trader Joe’s, where the middle class goes to save money. You don’t have three hours to take the bus. So you buy groceries at the corner store, where a gallon of milk costs an extra dollar.

A loaf of bread there costs you $2.99 for white. For wheat, it’s $3.79. The clerk behind the counter tells you the gallon of leaking milk in the bottom of the back cooler is $4.99. She holds up four fingers to clarify. The milk is beneath the shelf that holds beef bologna for $3.79. A pound of butter sells for $4.49. In the back of the store are fruits and vegetables. The green peppers are shriveled, the bananas are more brown than yellow, the oranges are picked over.

(At a Safeway on Bradley Boulevard in Bethesda, the wheat bread costs $1.19, and white bread is on sale for $1. A gallon of milk costs $3.49 — $2.99 if you buy two gallons. A pound of butter is $2.49. Beef bologna is on sale, two packages for $5.)

Prices in urban corner stores are almost always higher, economists say. And sometimes, prices in supermarkets in poorer neighborhoods are higher. Many of these stores charge more because the cost of doing business in some neighborhoods is higher. “First, they are probably paying more on goods because they don’t get the low wholesale price that bigger stores get,” says Bradley R. Schiller, a professor emeritus at American University and the author of “The Economics of Poverty and Discrimination.”

“The real estate is higher. The fact that volume is low means fewer sales per worker. They make fewer dollars of revenue per square foot of space. They don’t end up making more money. Every corner grocery store wishes they had profits their customers think they have.”

Of course it’s not just that groceries are more expensive — it’s also that there’s a dearth of fresh fruits and vegetables and healthy food items. Where those items are available, they’re significantly more expensive than frozen foods. If you have a family to feed and a box of frozen fish sticks is the same price as one pear, it’s not a tough calculus.

And food is just the start of it:

When you are poor, you don’t have the luxury of throwing a load into the washing machine and then taking your morning jog while it cycles. You wait until Monday afternoon, when the laundromat is most likely to be empty, and you put all of that laundry from four kids into four heaps, bundle it in sheets, load a cart and drag it to the corner.

“When you are poor, you substitute time for money,” says Randy Albelda, an economics professor at the University of Massachusetts at Boston. “You have to work a lot of hours and still not make a lot of money. You get squeezed, and your money is squeezed.”

The poor pay more in hassle: the calls from the bill collectors, the landlord, the utility company. So they spend money to avoid the hassle. The poor pay for caller identification because it gives them peace of mind to weed out calls from bill collectors.

The rich have direct deposit for their paychecks. The poor have check-cashing and payday loan joints, which cost time and money. Payday advance companies say they are providing an essential service to people who most need them. Their critics say they are preying on people who are the most “economically vulnerable.”

“As you’ve seen with the financial services industry, if people can cut a profit, they do it,” Blumenauer says. “The poor pay more for financial services. A lot of people who are ‘unbanked’ pay $3 for a money order to pay their electric bill. They pay a 2 percent check-cashing fee because they don’t have bank services. The reasons? Part of it is lack of education. But part of it is because people target them. There is evidence that credit-card mills have recently started trolling for the poor. They are targeting the recently bankrupt.”

Read the whole thing.


87 thoughts on The High Cost of Poverty

  1. I think John Scalzi’s “Being Poor” really helps to drive this point home. It’s linked in my name.

    Being poor is knowing exactly how much everything costs.

    Being poor is getting angry at your kids for asking for all the crap they see on TV.

    Being poor is having to keep buying $800 cars because they’re what you can afford, and then having the cars break down on you, because there’s not an $800 car in America that’s worth a damn.

    Being poor is hoping the toothache goes away.

    Being poor is knowing your kid goes to friends’ houses but never has friends over to yours.

    Being poor is going to the restroom before you get in the school lunch line so your friends will be ahead of you and won’t hear you say “I get free lunch” when you get to the cashier.

    Being poor is living next to the freeway.

    Being poor is coming back to the car with your children in the back seat, clutching that box of Raisin Bran you just bought and trying to think of a way to make the kids understand that the box has to last.

    Being poor is wondering if your well-off sibling is lying when he says he doesn’t mind when you ask for help.

  2. I’m always a little shocked by these kinds of articles. I’m lucky enough to live in a neighborhood which, despite being fairly poor in a lot of places, has a proliferation of little ethnic grocers. Sure, you could pay five bucks for a pound of butter at a corner store, but I only ever see yuppies in a hurry doing that, everyone else goes to one of the half dozen or so incredibly cheap local places within walking distance. Is it a regional thing? An urban/suburban thing? Is it an ethnic thing (a lot of the local grocers are owned by South or Central American immigrants)?

  3. William, am I confusing you with another poster who lives in Chicago? If not, your experience is a neighborhood thing. Go to the south or west sides and there are plenty of neighborhoods in which there is simply no grocery store, and no L stop within walking distance. When a number of Jewels closed this year, they exacerbated the problem. Because of course if you live on the Red line and have the time, you can get to a Jewel or Aldi. But if you’re dependent on the buses or there’s no transit in your neighborhood, it’s a whole different ballgame.

  4. William, your neighborhood is an outlier. I can definitely tell you that downstate (I’m in central Illinois), the trend for the past twenty years has been to close all the supermarkets in the midst of the city, and open up huge megastores by the Interstates.

    See, my city grows by 40,000 people every Monday through Friday. They come here to work, because that’s where the nearest employment is—-the small towns they come from no longer have an economy, and most of those small towns don’t have a grocery store any more (or, a grocery store that stays open before or past working hours, which is pretty much the same thing).

    My city just now started one evening bus line for the first time in over forty years. What that meant if you’re poor (and I was at one time) was that you were damn lucky to catch the last evening bus (5:00PM) to go home—there was no going to the store after work. A cab ride across town in 1991 was twenty dollars. Fast food and gas stations are the main food source in poor neighborhoods.

    My mortgage payment is half the the price of the average two bedroom apartment in my city. And I’m not talking about the kind of apartment complexes that have a pool, either. I’m talking about the kind of places where the police wait for backup before going in. It’s literally more expensive to rent than to buy—but of course, you have to have good credit and a down payment to buy. Having a car means not having to pay for expensive cabs after bus hours or on Sundays. Having a car means being able to buy in bulk at the store and take advantage of sales. Having cash saved up means having access to a bank account—-around here, banks require a minimum balance of $2000 to avoid all kinds of expensive “service” fees.

    Being poor also means no health insurance (most poor people aren’t poor “enough” to get a medical card). No health insurance means that if something does happen that absolutely can’t wait (say, your child has a broken arm), you get to pay the full fare. If you have health insurance, the price is already knocked down by anywhere from one-half to one-third before insurance kicks in. So a broken arm that costs $200 for someone with insurance costs $2500 or more for someone without. Since you can’t pay that all at once, the hospital tacks on a service charge for that.

    Being poor also means having to spend a boatload on shoes since walking is your main form of transportation, and you can’t get walkable shoes secondhand. Payless shoes sure the hell do not last if you’re walking three-to-five miles a day in them.

  5. There is a very fine line between poverty and the prospect of mobility, and often it only takes a little bit of extra income to move a family from the former to the latter. I mentioned this on my blog, but it’s also worth mentioning here: one of the major failings of federal welfare policy is that it does a terrible job at giving families that extra bump to begin the hard climb out of poverty. If we could provide income supports or something that would benefit those families and individuals who don’t qualify for the normal set of benefits, we could do some real good.

  6. The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.

    Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.

    But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that’d still be keeping his feet dry in ten years’ time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.

    This was the Captain Samuel Vimes “Boots” theory of socioeconomic unfairness.

  7. Banks I have used have always had minimum balances of like ten dollars. I have never heard of a bank with a minimum balance of like two grand OMG!!!

  8. At the risk of sounding cranky…. Is this supposed to just be a poverty 101 post, or was there a larger context I missed? I’m genuinely asking, not just being contrary.

    This seems very focused on urban poverty, which is a huge problem, yes, but rural poverty has its own set of costs and mobility issues.

  9. Wow. I’m moving in a few months and whether the apartment is near a grocery store will be something to pay attention to. I am used to grocery stores being spread evenly throughout a city though. I can’t imagine otherwise. And every apartment I’ve looked at online so far has a washer and dryer in the apartment. I can relate to paying a dollar extra for 4L of milk. I’m glad there is a grocery store that still charges $3.99 even if it’s farther.
    The problems in the article seem like they’ve been there a long time and would be hard to solve. Chequing accounts should be open to everyone at least. How about making bike paths and giving people bicycles made for carrying things? It’s just disheartening that there aren’t more politicians working on what is keeping poor people poor.

  10. And the one I and my partner use now (WaMu) has a minimum balance of $1 for a checking account, and you can have a checking account without a savings account. I think that is more common actually, that’s what we have.

  11. As far as chequing accounts go, my partner’s bank has let him be at -$400 for a while and nothing’s happened thankfully. This article didn’t even get into how it’s harder to find a job if you’re poor. My partner doesn’t have a job so he doesn’t have money for the bus so he’s applying to places within biking distance. That’s quite a few places but almost no one seems to be hiring. I’m also looking for a job within a 4-5km radius of where I live.

  12. Of course it is true in general poor people pay more for things middle class people take for granted.

  13. Mmmm, insurance. I’m still paying off medical bills from when I didn’t have it (two years ago). And grocers. Lately the trend in my neighborhood is for the local grocers to aim for the high end retailers, so the cheapest way we can go is to the Aldis or the little ethnic shops on campus (which are fantastic, if you have this option).

    The cost of being poor is fucked up, but moreso is how the face of poverty has been cast as urban and of color. The majority of poor folks I know and have worked with have been white, rural people whose economic centers have died with globalization.

  14. I don’t remember getting taught how to balance a checkbook in high school. My mom taught me that, and we balanced my first checking account together for six months so that she was sure I knew how to do it. Hard to do if your mom doesn’t know how either, or if she works twelve hour days.

    I’m a bit of a foodie, in a small way, and doing things like using the time I’ve got to make bread from scratch makes the homemade soup that stretches the chicken we bought out to another couple meals taste like a million bucks. But these are skills I learned as a member of the semi-rural middle class.

    I learned to kill chickens and plant a garden and know how to keep the deer out (though deer fed on corn and windfall apples taste divine), but I also learned how to drive a car and had help purchasing one as a teen, and how to run a checking account, and how to interview for jobs, and a host of other small life skills that I don’t think about until I realize that not everyone knows this.

  15. And that’s just the beginning…Rebecca touched on the biggest cost…inferior products..

    It’s not just boots – it’s clothing and vehicles (if you’re in a rural area). And don’t even get me started on product and housing safety or health care. All that lovely pollution isn’t just resulting in health problems it also increases health care costs.

  16. This was the Captain Samuel Vimes “Boots” theory of socioeconomic unfairness.

    Terry Pratchett is one of our greatest social philosophers.

    Seriously.

  17. And things cost more if you are disabled. Disabled and poor together is doubletough. Most people with disabilities are poor, even if started out as middle or working class, in the US.

  18. Thanks to those above me who posted along these lines– urban poverty bites, but that’s not the only kind of poverty there is. I’m not even sure that’s most people in poverty live in cities, but then again, I could be wrong.

    It’s just… reading about people who live in cities being described as “poor” with the qualifier of “urban” is kinda like see Joe the Plumber being described as “American” without the tag of “white middle-class” attached. It kind of disappears me, my experience, and the people I know who wrest with the issues and challenges of rural poverty.

    That said, this article was depressing in the extreme. This shouldn’t be news. This should be common sense. Everyone should know this. Especially members of the GOP, who think that they’re “self-made”.

  19. Being poor means going to the library to rent free movies.

    Being poor means using every tea bag twice.

    Being poor means making up excuses not to go out with friends who have reasonable incomes, or going out but only ordering a glass of water.

    Being poor means knowing how to sew.

    Being poor means knowing which common weeds are edible.

    Being poor means knowing all the different food banks’ and soup kitchens’ locations, days and hours.

    Being poor means knowing which restaurants and groceries put their trash out when.

    Being poor means knowing how to fix your own bike.

    Being poor means never traveling beyond the bounds of public transport or your ability to bike.

    Being poor fucks up your mental health, but you can never afford such a ‘triviality’ as going to a therapist/psychologist/psychiatrist.

  20. It is pretty bizarre to be quoting university professors who probably make like 50-60K+ per year on this issue.

  21. At the risk of sounding cranky…. Is this supposed to just be a poverty 101 post, or was there a larger context I missed? I’m genuinely asking, not just being contrary.

    This seems very focused on urban poverty, which is a huge problem, yes, but rural poverty has its own set of costs and mobility issues.

    The article is focused on urban poverty because it was published in the Washington Post, so it’s centered on DC. And I assume it is supposed to be a Poverty 101 article, since that’s what it says. There is no larger context to my posting it; I just thought it was interesting and worth sharing.

  22. We’re just above what would be working poor, and our status is by no means certain. I’ve lost two jobs in the past six months. Unemployment has paid me for one week of being out of work, but the other week where I couldn’t ever get through to the agency? They’re not paying me for that. I’ve got a temp job that I love but can’t depend on. I don’t go to the doctor unless I’m really, really sick instead of just the sick I am every day because it means having to take time off work and that’s time I don’t get paid. We have one car. My wife, who got fired for being sick thanks to complications from surgery last year, has a part time job. Our schedules aren’t similar enough we can go at the same time, and she has to get to her doctor appointments so she takes taxis. She could take the bus but it would take her two hours to get to work when it’s ten minutes to drive. We’re paying for insurance through COBRA and the stimulus package giving us a 65% discount is the only thing that keeps it from being completely overwhelming. I live in constant pain because I work a full-time temp job with no benefits and can’t do the things that would help me manage my disability better. My wife is depressed; she feels like a failure for not having a ‘real job’ and she hurts all the time for reasons no one has ever been able to figure out. We have no credit. I see no way we’ll ever get into a house, unless we win the Lotto or something. I have no plans for retirement. In some ways my wife would be better off if I died and the insurance paid out.

    And we’re lucky. We don’t live in a redlined zip code where we’d pay more for car insurance. We’ve got a new car because my grandmother was wealthy enough to lend us the money for a Honda Fit, and low rent because my grandmother owns the apartment we’re in. We can get to the grocery store where food prices aren’t jacked up. We don’t have to worry much that someone will break in and take what little shit we have. We can afford to buy clothes at Target and not the Goodwill store. We can buy expensive cat food that doesn’t make our oldest break out in oozing sores. We both have college degrees — she has two Master’s degrees! But we’re just barely holding on, and have no hope of moving up.

    Some people would say we’re just living out the consequences of our choices. That our problems are caused by high taxes and burdensome regulation on the corporations that exploit us, and we’re sheep, deluded by a liberal conspiracy to keep us ground down.

  23. Re: checking, banks won’t give you a checking account if you have a bad credit rating. I have awful credit, because I simply couldn’t afford to pay my student loans for a long time. And now that I’ve got a job that may let me pay my student loans, I have to get a bank account in my name, but how can I do that with my shitty credit? Try again, middle class. Try again.

  24. The article vastly understates the rate of interest of a First Cash Advance (page 3).

    It claims that “fee for borrowing $300 is $46.50 … for seven days”. This is an equivalent of an interest rate of 180000% per year (one hundred and eighty thousand percent).

    I.e. if you initially borrowed $300, and the debt increased by 15.5% every week, then at then end of the year you would owe $55000 (fifty-five thousand dollars).

    If Washington Post journalists can’t get numbers like this correct (they said it was 806%), then how can people who’s circumstances have denied them the opportunity of a good education protect themselves from extortion like this.

  25. There’s another dangerous aspect to checking. You get overdraft protection whether you want it or not, and if you miscalculate by a few dollars, they’ll dun you ten or twenty times that amount. It can be very dangerous for people who live a few dollars above zero, especially if they can’t pay the fee right away.

    Living in a less-wealthy neighborhood also means that you might not have access to a branch, which means you can’t clear out an account but must use the ATM denominations. At least a few banks put several-day holds on checks, including payroll checks, if you deposit at an ATM because you don’t have half an hour to wait in line for a teller. Your bank might have no ATMs nearby, either, which means you pay a few dollars’ surcharge to access your money in your neighborhood.

    A Slog poster wrote about how overdraft and other fees are becoming more common as the recession deepens: BoA et al need to get money from somewhere.

  26. I admit I’m always surprised when people are surprised at the kind of things talked about in this article. I used to be poor, but I now have a decent job and enough money not to have to worry about bills. I also live in the UK. But here being poor also means:
    – You will have an electric/gas pay meter so that you can better manage your money. But gas and electric bought this way is more expensive.
    – You won’t have the money to take advantage of supermarket deals where you buy for example three things for the price of 2.
    – You won’t be able to pay bills such as water bill by direct debit straight from a bank account and so you will be charged more.
    – If you have it, insurance will be dearer – car or home – as you will probably be living in a neighbourhood with high crime.
    – You won’t be able to afford to buy most furniture straight out, so you buy from hire purchase or catalogues which charge you more.
    – You can’t afford to buy the monthly bus passes that make bus travel much cheaper.
    etc. etc.
    Poor people pay way more than rich people for the same things. They also don’t get the coupons that I currently get sent to me offering me money off nice restaurants or cheap weekends away in timeshare developments.

  27. There’s another dangerous aspect to checking. You get overdraft protection whether you want it or not, and if you miscalculate by a few dollars, they’ll dun you ten or twenty times that amount. It can be very dangerous for people who live a few dollars above zero, especially if they can’t pay the fee right away.

    At this, though, this is better than no overdraft protection. When I was in grad school, living hand to mouth, I received a check for $1000 for a comic book script. I deposited it, and that day, went out and paid my rent with it, bought groceries with it, filled up my tank with gas with it… and then it didn’t clear, so all of those checks bounced. The grocery and gas ended up costing me twice what it had originally cost, by the time I paid all the fees, and I ended up on a blacklist of bad check writers at my favorite supermarket until I got the guy who wrote the original bad check to write them a letter of explanation.

    A bounce fee from overdraft protection is better than a bounce fee from an overdrafted check, *plus* having to pay the check all over again, *plus* the fees the merchant you gave the check to charges you, *plus* the bad will you may get from that merchant for having bounced a check, even if it wasn’t your fault.

    I also find myself more tolerant of hold times on out of state checks for this reason. It would have been painful to have that check held for a few days to confirm funds, but a lot less painful than all the money I had to spend to recover.

    The real problem with overdraft protection is debit cards. The credit card system is actually not well designed to keep you from going over limit, and it seems that some vendors — Capital One in particular, but MY CREDIT UNION’S DEBIT CARD is the one that really gets me — will actively let you make a charge that takes you over the limit, and then charge you a fee. When I was younger, if you didn’t have the money in your credit card balance or in your debit card bank account, the charge would decline. That could be painful, but it kept you from being charged $39 to buy a $5 lunch at McDonalds when you have only $2.50 in your account. Overdraft protection should *not* allow you to make debit transactions against money you don’t have when the bank actually *knows* you don’t have the money (it’s one thing when your balance is $200, and you buy your lunch and your gas and then some groceries and then socks and underwear and all told the charges add up to $220 but no one charge was over your limit, so at the time they were authorized you *had* the money; it’s another thing when your balance is $20, you make a $25 charge and they AUTHORIZE it and then charge you a fee.) Neither should credit cards. If the policy is to let you go over limit, then they should be prevented from charging a fee, because they are at fault for your overlimit… they knew how much you had and could have declined.

    They still work on the principle that everyone has a check book and they write every check down in it and so they should reasonably know when they run out of money. When credit cards can automatically pull bills from your account and spouses can share a credit card and both spend with it at the same time and the only paper record you have of your transactions is a receipt that sometimes you don’t even get, we don’t live in a world where we should be reasonably expected to know how much money we have at all times.

  28. Fred Clark, over at Slacktivist, has done a number of pieces (in his “class warfare” category) on what he calls the PPR, the Poor People’s Rate: “the premium that poor and working classes are charged over and above what the rich charge one another for the same goods and services.” He posted one just today in which he points out that Edward Yingling, the head of the credit-card lobby — who wants predatory usury and what Clark calls “capricious, fine-print larceny” completely unregulated — is, by the Biblical definition, a Sodomite: “This was the sin of your sister Sodom. She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and the needy.”

    In another posting, from a year ago, Clark explains that it’s perfectly legal in most states for insurers to demand more — even twice as much — in premiums from poor and working-class people for no other reason than that they are poor.

  29. Oh yes. Being poor is really expensive. Actually, being middle class and temporarily out of money is rather expensive too, but you tend to have better resources to cope.

  30. We both have college degrees — she has two Master’s degrees! But we’re just barely holding on, and have no hope of moving up.

    Of all the mainstream or conservative “suggestions” to help people in poverty, one of the most insulting ones is “get more education.” There are millions of unemployed and badly underemployed people holding bachelor’s and master’s degrees. Often they’re proposing more and better community colleges–great idea for those who already hold graduate degrees.

    Drive me nuts to hear that one. “Get more education!” Feh.

  31. Re: credit check, depends on the bank, my partner has horrible horrible credit and got a checking account. It is unfortunate the branch in our neighborhood closed down, luckily there is one by my partner’s work. We also are lucky to live close to good public transportation (no car).

    I do have the “pleasure” of familiarity with overdraft fees.

    But anyway I am unemployed and partner’s income is like 18-19K/yr.

  32. “Often they’re proposing more and better community colleges”

    I do think that option needs to be promoted more in high school. Of course not any education will do. How about more bursaries for tuition in careers where they are predicting shortages? This could be nursing, the trades, etc. There are lots of jobs that require more specific skills than university will give.

  33. I’ve been arguing this for YEARS whenever someone tries to tell me that poor people “obviously have no trouble eating because they’re so fat.” When you’re poor, do not have reliable transportation, and frozen/packaged foods are cheaper and last longer in your pantry than fresh produce, you tend to eat less healthy. Also, when you’re living paycheck to paycheck you usually have to wait until your next paycheck before you can go back to the grocery store to buy fresh food. In the meantime, what you have at home has to last two weeks. There were times back in my lean days when I could only go grocery shopping once a MONTH, because my rent was higher than one of my two monthly paychecks. I lived on box meals and frozen food.

  34. “I’ve been arguing this for YEARS whenever someone tries to tell me that poor people “obviously have no trouble eating because they’re so fat.”

    Tell me about it! I am fortunate that living in the UK, this damn country is so small it isn’t possible to put the supermarkets that far apart! But it still causes problems trying to save money.

    It can actually be cheaper to make some things from scratch, if you can get the ingredients and if you know how to use them. I’m lucky that I have learned things like bread making and pasta making, and making my own sauces using cheap ingredients, and I can cook well enough to make a lot of things from scratch.

    There is nothing quite like the slow, crushing sensation of gently rising panic at that 8-days-until-payday stage (sometimes 10-11 days, if it is a hard month). There is no money left in the bog standard bank account. There is £1.37 in change in the penny pot. We have enough electric left in the meter to last 6 days, if we switch off EVERYTHING except the fridge and use the emergency candles to read by. I have a 1/2 bag of flour, 2 onions (1 going soft), 1 packet of dried beans, 1/8 bottle cooking oil and some wrinkly mushrooms left to last us until payday. And I just received a statement fromt he water board telling me I owe them money and STILL have not paid.

    Poor is also; declining the option to “walk backalong the scenic route” home from work with the girls, because you know that in 25 minutes the groceries shop nearest you will be reducing all of their about-to-die produce and you can maybe freeze some fish or chicken that isn’t too nasty looking and perhaps get some vegetables that are only slightly wilting and maybe even some milk if there is a dented carton they want to get rid of, and if you don’t do this every single night you can’t afford enough food for the month.

  35. SK – not all university professors are making that much money, although economics profs would usually make more. It’s not as if they are asking CEOs

    And if someone is an expert on poverty and has done the research, why not ask them?

  36. SK – not all university professors are making that much money, although economics profs would usually make more. It’s not as if they are asking CEOs

    Besides, grad students are usually pretty damn poor, and almost all university professors were grad students once. I make damn good money now, but I remember what it was like to consider steak a special treat that I got to eat once a year (on Thanksgiving, when I gave thanks that I wasn’t eating turkey at my grandmother’s.) Or what it was like to pawn my car for the rent.

    Most professors probably have some experience of being poor, because many grad students live on poverty-level stipends while in grad school, and since they work in the lab, carry a course load and work on a thesis, they have less free time to get a job than even regular college students. Admittedly many formerly poor people forget their origins… but not all.

  37. Terry Pratchett is one of our greatest social philosophers.

    Seriously.

    I entirely agree. Sir Terry is always the first example I pull out whenever anyone tries to argue that fantasy is silly.

  38. “And things cost more if you are disabled. Disabled and poor together is doubletough. Most people with disabilities are poor, even if started out as middle or working class, in the US.”

    Oooh, agreed.

    Alara, grad students, seriously?

  39. It is pretty bizarre to be quoting university professors who probably make like 50-60K+ per year on this issue.

    Wait…SK, is that in U.S. dollars? Because if so, granted—that’s not poor, but it’s hardly fancy-house-in-the-suburbs-rich, either. I wish I could remember where I found it, but there was this site where you could plug in your zip code to find out how much a single parent with two children had to earn to be self-sufficient. It only included necessities like housing, utilities, food, transportation, child care and health insurance/routine medical care. Nothing for savings of any kind, whether rainy-day or retirement. No recreation. No educational expenses (for the adult or the children). I plugged in my zip code and it was $40,000-42,000, something like that. Hell, I live in central Illinois (translation: lower cost housing than the coasts–let’s face it, “cost of living” differences are really cost of housing differences. Utilities, food, medical care, etc. aren’t any cheaper here than they are in Chicago—and sometimes more expensive) and 50-60K is upper-working-class/lower middle class.

    I’m starting to see a trend on this thread of not really being poor until you’re digging in the dumpster for dinner. I think a better working definition of poverty is not having a safety net. If you earn enough to keep a roof over your head, the heat on, and food on the table, you’re still poor if you can’t save for any crisis that may come up (like your car shooting craps when you need your car to get to work).

    That’s what makes people poor—that lack of a safety net. You think you’re doing ok because you can finally take a breather on your bills, but then Something Happens and boom! everything’s gone again.

    As for grad students, not all of them are created equal. Some have wealthy parents to funnel money to them when they need it. Some don’t, and have to scrape by on their own. There’s the assumption that once a person has an education, that they’ll be skating into a good job after graduation, and hey–you can see how well that’s working out in this economy. Or, for women in any economy, seeing as men with a high school education tend to outearn women with a college education.

  40. It’s all true in John Scalzi’s list (Roxie’s post). I check pretty many of those boxes. It always was clear to me, too, that the rich don’t pay for a lot of things the poor have to pay for. They get all kinds of free lunches and nobody ever asks for the prize cause they’re wearing such big boots.

  41. I know what you mean about how it can only take 1 crisis to send a family that were doing okay into abject poverty. I live in the UK but have american relatives. My Aunt was doing okay until her diabetes caused problems with her foot that led to gangrene.

    She earned just enough that she didn’t qualify for government health assistance but too little to pay for decent health insurance. The costs of her hospital treatment sent the whole family on a downward financial spiral. There are poor people in the UK but I think we have much more safety nets than you have.

  42. Alara, grad students, seriously?

    Uh, yeah.

    The average grad student in a science track (I can’t speak to the ones in, say, literature) gets their tuition paid for and receives a stipend to live on, in exchange for working as a teaching assistant or a lab assistant for a professor. But the stipend is extremely low, barely poverty level, and because you’re both working at a job (TA or research assistant) *and* taking classes *and* probably working on your thesis, it’s very hard for you to actually get another job to make ends meet. Meanwhile your parents may or may not be able to give you any money, because if you’re an older child they may be funding a younger sibling’s college education, and if you’re a youngest child they may have burned through all their money funding your and other sibs’ education.

    For the wealthy and the upper middle class, who are a tiny tiny percentage of the population and not where the majority of graduate students (or the majority of anything, except maybe CEO’s) come from, mom and dad might have plenty of money lying around. But for the middle middle class and lower middle class, getting your kid into college was hard enough; if they want to go on into academia, they’re usually on their own.

    Mind you, grad students are not in *permanent* poverty by any means, and the lack of the utter hopelessness that comes with permanent poverty does have an effect. No matter how much money I made, I had middle class ideas and values, and the belief that this was temporary and someday I’d make good money. I’m sure that has an effect. But we were talking about the cost of poverty, not the mindset of poverty, and I assure you, going to the check cashing place to get cash because they’re open on Saturday and the bank isn’t, thus losing ten percent of the money, because you have literally no food in your apartment and no money to buy any and if you want to eat today, you need that check cashed… that is poor. In some ways you’re actually worse off than the people who see being poor as a permanent thing, because you’re much more likely to be ignorant of services that could help you (had I known the location of a food kitchen, for instance, maybe I could have saved the $10 that the check cashing place took out of my $100 check), and quite possibly too ashamed to avail yourself of the help you do know about.

    I pawned jewelry my mother had given me, my VCR, and my car (in Georgia in those days you could pawn your car and still drive it, so long as you paid it off at the end of the pawning period… with a fee of over 10% for 1 month of borrowing the money tacked onto it.) I ate the same pot of mac and cheese for four days. I had my electric turned off. I went to parties for the grad students, not to network but to get free food. Yes, I was poor, and yes, it cost me a lot of money. Unlike people in systemic poverty, I knew all along it was temporary… but temporary doesn’t mean much when you’re hungry today. And I haven’t forgotten what it was like (my family makes over $200K now and I still refuse to throw out food. I won’t buy expensive shoes or clothes because I won’t spend that much money on my needs. We have *never* been on a family vacation further than three hours from home except when we go to my parents’, which is basically free except for gas. 90% of the books I read come from the library.) I doubt that all economics professors who study the poor have forgotten what it was like, either, because my experience as a grad student was *not* unusual.

  43. I’m glad the Washington Post is publishing articles like this. While this is obvious to those of us who work in poverty-reduction, unfortunately it’s a surprise to many others.

    There is one issue, however, that the article does not fully address. As Jill has said in the past “Poverty has a woman’s face.” Over the past few months countless statistics have come out showing that women in the U.S. are the hardest hit by the economic crisis. (The Ms. Foundation has published a lot of statistics about this issue on their website). In developing countries, where women have even less access to credit, trade, and education, have fewer property rights and enjoy fewer protections against workplace violence and unequal wages and working conditions, the situation is even worse. Already the majority of the world’s poor, women around the world, particularly in Africa, are watching as newly created jobs in manufacturing and textiles, industries dominated by women laborers, are vanishing and small business credit is drying up. (Read more about the effects of the financial crisis on women worldwide here). Both domestically and internationally, America’s response to increasing poverty must prioritize women if it is going to be effective.

  44. La Lubu, the cost of living in my (coastal) city is very high, I still see that salary as middle class sorry. Maybe with some kids and in an expensive area etc. could be lower-middle.

    Alara, I am so offended by that idea that I’m not sure how to respond.

  45. Especially this thought, Alara, that college professors know poverty automatically from having been grad students.

  46. SK, Alara wasn’t saying that college professors know poverty automatically from having been grad students. She was just making the point that grad students are not universally middle-class and economically privileged, and that a lot of them do live in poverty or borderline poverty; for some professors, those experiences aren’t readily forgotten.

    I think it’s worth reiterating what La Lubu said: This thread is quickly turning into a Battle of the Poorest, where you aren’t “really” poor unless you are literally getting your food from the dumpster. That’s a really dangerous path to go down, and it actually sounds a lot like right-wing talking points — that the poor in America aren’t “really” poor because they have color TVs and can afford McDonald’s every once in a while.

  47. 60k is what it takes to be makin’ it. If that’s middle-class, then I’m Tom Brady. 60k is upper working class unless you’re living in a low-cost area.

  48. Grad students in the humanities, from what I understand, tend to be paid less than grad students in the sciences. But they also work fewer hours (20/week is standard). Still, you don’t really have time to go out and do an extra job when you’ve got coursework and research to do.

    SK, what’s the problem here? Do you not believe Alara is telling you the truth when she says grad students in the US live in poverty? Because unless they have family paying their bills, they do live in poverty.

  49. Well one thing is, if it is poverty then it is chosen poverty. IMO there is a distinction between being low-ish income and poverty, and choosing a path where you are temporarily low-income versus not having that choice. Calling it poverty…

  50. Graduate studies should be undertaken only by those students whose families can afford to keep them out of poverty? I’m not understanding what makes the distinction so significant.

  51. Well being a grad student would be a serious improvement for me financially so I pretty much think you all can shove it.

  52. The choice to be in “poverty,” when it is a choice like the ones we are talking about, is a very very privileged one to make.

  53. My problem with the “grad students aren’t really poor” argument is that it leads to our current situation, where grad students are eligible for no poverty associated benefits. Well, for those of us whose family can help, fine and dandy.

    But what does that do to any hope of upward mobility for someone who, say, barely scraped through college on a scholarship, comes from a dirt poor family, and, oh, wants to go to medical school/grad school/law school? Sorry, you’re not really poor because you managed to get through school?

  54. More like, they shouldn’t really be the top of the priority list. Much less concerned with someone’s inability to go to law school than oh, actual poverty.

  55. I think an important issue being left out in this discussion is the idea of planning. I have to plan how to spend my money and time to make both stretch as far as possible. I agree that many poverty-stricken people are charged more for services that the middle and upper class can receive much cheaper, if not for free. However, there are a myriad of ways to avoid paying those higher fees. More than anything, being poor means being creative and finding cost-free solutions to problems. That doesn’t mean that poor people don’t deserve understanding or help, but I do think that often people get caught in a cycle simply because they are unable to create a safety net for themselves.

    When things started to get really desperate for me, I went without a phone, by choice, for six months. It was inconvenient, but I was able to save enough to make an emergency fund. I carefully plan my budget, and stick to it, even when it hurts. The emergency fund gives me peace of mind, and the budget allows me to add to my savings, even in a small way. I’ve spent my entire life poor, and can sympathize with the desperate feeling it creates, but I think the situation isn’t an unsolvable one, even with the limited resources available.

  56. More like, they shouldn’t really be the top of the priority list. Much less concerned with someone’s inability to go to law school than oh, actual poverty.

    Are we talking about who gets benefits, or are we talking about who has to pay more because they’re financially insecure?

    Because, yes, if we’re talking about where resources to help the poor need to be primarily directed, then absolutely people in systemic poverty should be the first priority, BUT THAT IS NOT THE POINT OF THIS THREAD.

    We are talking about who pays more because they’re poor *right now*, and whether or not a college professor could possibly have any understanding of this phenomenon. My statement is that college professors were mostly grad students and grad students mostly *used* to be poor enough to fall into the category of “people who pay more for services than the financially stable do.” And *I’m* offended by the implication that a person who PAWNS HER CAR to pay the rent and keep the electric on is not poor. Yes, it was chosen poverty, chosen as part of a plan to someday be financially stable. No, I didn’t deserve to, say, go on welfare because I was poor, because I did in fact have the option of giving up my ambition to get a doctorate and getting a real job (which, in fact, in the end I did, because I was too damn poor.) But yes, I paid more money for all kinds of shit than I do now that I *have* much more money. So yes, people who used to be grad students do in fact understand that the poor pay more money for everything. Now can we stop measuring our poverty dicks?

  57. There is a dangerous aspect to deciding what is and is not “actual” poverty based on things like whether or not you might ever escape that poverty. Sort of like welfare cutting women off when they get married or get a better job.

    If you have food insecurity, you have food insecurity, whether or not you might or might not have it in five years. People who have managed, in one way or another (not saying they are “better” )to take steps that might lift them out of poverty should not be penalized. We need to make it easier for people to get education and jobs, not make it impossible for anyone without a middle class support system holding them up.

    Look, I’ve done both. I’ve lived being the child of a single mom on disability with no health insurance and food insecurity, etc, etc, and I’ve lived being a grad student. Being a grad student is better–but not because of my salary or something intrinsic to being a grad student, because the family and support systems around me are different now and in a better position.

  58. Well I did say it was beside the point but I was just responding to the person above me, who wanted to talk about opportunities (and benefits). Sure all people should have all opportunities if we could get there but the ability to go to law school, not that many people have that in the first place, and someone’s inability to go to law school…well, you know. So far from the top of the priority pile. It is a derail but I didn’t bring it up.

  59. Also, Alara, I’m sure it is fine to say most grad students have enough financial insecurity or a low enough income to know that financial insecurity means having to pay more than you would otherwise. That is not what you and most other people here were saying. You specifically and a bunch of other people called it poverty. For one thing.

  60. Thank you for that kind invitation, SK, but I think I will pass. I hope your situation improves soon.

  61. Also, Alara, I’m sure it is fine to say most grad students have enough financial insecurity or a low enough income to know that financial insecurity means having to pay more than you would otherwise. That is not what you and most other people here were saying. You specifically and a bunch of other people called it poverty. For one thing.

    I wasn’t aware the word poverty has a time limit built in.

    I *did* repeatedly stress that this would be a situation of temporary poverty. If the word temporary poverty is an oxymoron, I apologize, but my understanding of the word poverty is “you are dirt poor right now, and your circumstances will not easily allow you to avoid being dirt poor in the near future.” I mean, a banking executive who makes $150K could end up in dire poverty if she has to quit her job and flee the state without any of her assets because she’s escaping a husband that beats her. That doesn’t mean she can’t rebuild her life and become a banking executive again, but it means right now, she’s living in a shelter and can’t pay for her own food.

    And the entire discussion was about the poor having to pay more for services than everyone else, and the whole professor thing came up because you didn’t believe that a college professor was actually a credible person to listen to regarding that phenomenon, because what could they possibly know about being poor? You don’t have to be poor for a lifetime to understand many of the challenges the poor face. Therefore, on the topic of poor people having to pay more for services, college professors may actually have had personal experience. (Of course then there’s the whole issue of, people who have done research on a subject often *do* know what they’re talking about whether they have personal experience with the situation or not. But even on the level of “has a college professor ever been poor enough to understand the challenges the poor face?”, I have to say, “yes, some of the challenges anyway.”)

    Nobody in this entire thread has been talking about who deserves to have the bulk of anti-poverty services and initiatives focused on them. It’s all been about the poor paying more.

  62. Which is not to say middle class college professors are good experts to quote in an article on the high cost of poverty either. I stand by that.

  63. Part of the problem might be not clearly defining poverty–it could be seen as a noun form of “poor,” which is pretty loose, but there’s actually a government standard for “below the poverty line”–some years ago I think it was about $18,500 a year for a family of four. I don’t know how they allow for cost of living differences.

    If the income for a family of four is $21,000 a year, are they poor? If not, what would you call them?

  64. Alara. I don’t believe that a college professor is a good “expert” to quote in an article about poverty. They may have some limited life experience of things costing more from being low income, but that doesn’t make them a good source about poverty. If they grew up poor might be a slightly better source. People actually living in poverty would be the best sources. Someone who is actually an outsider who does “research” deserves to be laughed out of the room.

    Chava, who I was replying to, talked about anti-poverty services and initiatives, scroll up and check.

  65. Um yes I would call them poor assuming they don’t have other resources. I think that is pretty far away from talking about college professors and people who choose to be grad students.

  66. Anyway they are even below the federal poverty guidelines nowadays, which, by the way, I do think are too low. Just looked it up, family of four is in poverty “officially” if making under $22,050.

  67. BTW I would never try to “police” who qualifies as poor at that level, or to nearly the extent the government does. And health care especially is a big problem when you are not that far above the line. Like my partner is. But again this is so far off from the actual conversation that folks were just having that it is sort of boggling my mind that it has turned into this.

  68. Of course the whole bit with the government is much more complicated depending on which program, other factors, etc. etc. etc. But again this is off topic.

  69. By other resources, I mean like, other serious significant resources that would actually make someone not that poor, just to clarify. Not other resources that are relatively small.

  70. I made less than 15,000 dollars last year, I owe 21,000 for student loans (how will I ever pay that?), and I am underemployed. I don’t remember a time when I wasn’t poor.

  71. SK, I think I’m getting a better idea of where you’re coming from now. I find myself agreeing with what both you and Alara are saying. There’s a problem with talking about poverty as if it has one face, and there’s a clear difference between temporary poverty and that which is more permanent (usually due to structural/institutional problems that could be relatively easily remedied if there was the political courage to do so—things like universal health care and child care, creating more affordable housing (defined as no more than 30% of income) and that). And yeah, romanticization of poverty does bother me.

    I find it hard to talk about class on the internet, because the working definitions I have for certain terms can differ from the people I’m talking to. That’s why I always try to preface my comments a little with the who-I-am and where-I-come-from—to give clues as to what my definitions are. My experience on the ‘net has been that the default assumption for “middle class” is what my default assumption is for “rich”. In my Local, the term “middle class” means “what electricians earn.” I had to adjust my assumptions for what middle-classness is after being on the internet, so I won’t be misunderstood. I’ve most often seen the term “middle class” on the ‘net to refer to large houses and private schools/clubs, six-figure family incomes and such.

    A couple of things stand out to me though. This comment is one of them:

    Well one thing is, if it is poverty then it is chosen poverty. (regarding grad school—though frankly the same thing could be said about attending college at all)

    This stands out to me because living wage jobs are really difficult for a person without a college degree to come by. Granted, I have one, but I have what is a effective equivalent in the five-year apprenticeship and journeyman card. Considering how education serves as the best preventative medicine—especially for a woman—against poverty, I don’t think you can frame that as a “choice”. No one “chooses” poverty. No one for whom poverty is a realistic risk “chooses” to go without post-secondary education—if they have the opportunity, they take it. (or, that’s been my observation. the only people I’ve ever seen throw opportunities away are those who can rest pat in knowing more will come along—the well-born/well-connected. YMMV)

    What also went unmentioned is how women (and most especially single mothers) and displaced workers use college as a substitute for a piss-poor job market and lack of resources. BFP had a post about this not too long ago. What happens when you get out of school and can’t get a job? Or, a job that can pay the bills? Going to grad school gives you access to loans to live on that you’d never qualify for otherwise, and a lot of schools have subsidized child care resources for students. So, people take the gamble that maybe the job market will be better in a couple of years, or that their resume will look more attractive to an employer with some more alphabet soup behind it, or even that their kids will be old enough to not need child care (or more expensive child care—again, I want to emphasize that I live in the “cheap” part of the U.S. and child care costs are $800 a month for an infant and $400 for a school-age child).

    So, while that “poverty” is different from the poverty of someone who doesn’t even have access to that potential ladder out—it’s still no guarantee. But my default for “grad student” is someone who grew up working class and wants to get the economic stability that no longer exists for working class people (you know, the factory jobs are gone and the trades’ jobs aren’t regular enough—time to try for something in the white-collar area). I assume that a grad student’s only financial resources are student loans and work-study (or a part-time job). If your image of grad student is someone with wealthy parents that provide money and a car, yeah, I can see how the temporary “poverty” of eating ramen noodles but knowing that money is only a phone call away could grate one’s last nerve.

  72. SK, on the research, the professor did a quantitative comparison of prices for goods and services in different neighborhoods and then calculated the cost in dollars of being poor. I don’t see how that is not something that someone who has a strong math background couldn’t easily find out, nor is that something poor people automatically know (or have the resources to figure out). Indeed, your insistence that only “poor” people can ever know anything (even quantitative) about poverty OR that people with any sort of cultural capital can never be poor seems to be a romanticism of poverty and the “poor” as a certain category of people.

    Secondly,
    One thing that is so pernicious about the “grad students are secretly trust fund babies, so shouldn’t complain/get food stamps/have the right to unionize” is that it helps perpetuate class stratification of who can go on to get higher education. If you make so only upper-middle class/rich people can go to grad school, it’s a self-fulfilling prophesy. In effect, to argue that higher-education should not be made available to people who are not independently wealthy is one of the more odious claims anyone can make, and is indeed, a right-wing talking point cloaked in a “more-poor-than-thou” righteousness.

    To me, it seems a much better approach is to alliance of low to moderate income people to demand better public services for all classes (like universal healthcare, workable public transit, better policing, more equitable resource distribution, etc), which overall can lower the cost of living and make life better. Arguing that because some people are in grad school, they’re not really “poor” and therefore getting mugged/going to the laundromat/taking the bus is somehow cheaper and more enjoyable for them to me seems counter productive.

  73. “My experience on the ‘net has been that the default assumption for “middle class” is what my default assumption is for “rich”. In my Local, the term “middle class” means “what electricians earn.” I’ve most often seen the term “middle class” on the ‘net to refer to large houses and private schools/clubs, six-figure family incomes and such.”

    Isn’t this not just on the internet? I think I remember reading that people want to think of themselves as middle-class even when they’re not for some reason.
    That is a good point about going to school when the job markets bad. I have heard from people that this is a good time to go back to school because you can get loans and get more education when there aren’t many jobs out there. Indeed, I’m glad to be in teacher’s college in September and not job searching.

  74. One of the things that I took from reading Annette Lareau’s Unequal Childhoods, is how much we need more distinctions with class. As in, there is an an intellectual class, mostly. Her book completely falls down on integrating data from black families in large part due to following the same huge brush of upper, middle, and lower class.

    Not only that, we have so much of this thread jacked by a class discussion which was conflated with poverty. The article is talking about the expense of poverty, not the expense of being lower class. Starving grad students may have a community around them and middle/upper class friends and expectations of better future, but they are still starving.

  75. shah8,
    Totally, class is an extremely complicated topic, and American vernacular categories like “middle class” (or even more misleading “working class”) are extremely vague and amorphous to mean nothing at all.

    I think part of the confusion is that the “cost of poverty” in terms of time and money focuses on people’s economic capital or material resources, which is only one part of what makes up class.

    In this sense, anyone who by economic necessity is forced to use check-cashing places, crappy public transport, laundromats, etc. is “poor,” even though they may not be “low class.” I think that is where SK is coming from, that a starving artist is in a different (and more privileged) class than a janitor, which is completely true, however, if they are both waiting in the bus for 20 mins in the rain, they both are paying the “cost of poverty.”

    Secondly, classes look very different depending on where you are in the ladder. Interesting research has shown that the criteria people use to discuss class differ widely in different groups, with lower classes tending to define “class” based on economic capital, whereas the middle classes define it more based on access to opportunity, whereas upper classes use yet another criterion (I forget what).

    Another point is that people with different access to cultural, linguistic, symbolic capital etc. often live very differently even when poor (likewise, people who start of poor and suddenly make a lot of money tend to spend it very differently than people born rich, etc.). A large part of what marks someone’s class is spending priorities, i.e., not just how much money they have, but what they do with that money. (Within certain constraints of course) So in that sense, a grad student vs. a janitor both making $15,000 might spend that money very differently, however they both are constrained by the fact they have to first pay for basic necessities, which is where both often get dinged by the cost of being poor.

  76. I think it is an interesting point that people on different rungs of the ladder view class differently. I am definetly middle class (make 39k UK pounds). Yet friends who come from wealthier backgrounds but make the same or even more than me, see themselves as just getting by.

    I also agree that where you come from affects your spending behaviour. I come from a very poor background as does my partner (parents struggling to afford food and pay bills). We both have good jobs now and have had to learn to spend. Because of our frugality (although for someone very poor we do not live frugally) we have paid off our mortgage in a nice house in a good area and have savings. Friends joke about our addiction to deals – we collect vouchers etc. for holidays, meals out, etc.

    Friends who in some cases earn quite a bit more, seem poorer as they don’t have any savings and are short of money after holidays and Xmas. But waste (in our view) a lot of money.

  77. Being poor means listening to people behind you in line ridicule you either under their breath or directly to your face that you shouldn’t have had two kids if you couldn’t afford to have them. Being poor means some days crying as you walk to your falling apart car from the cashier’s line or being a b**** and tellithong people that if I didn’t have a good job, I wouldn’t have had my kids, but thanks to the economy, my job is gone. Being poor means not going to the doctor even though you have some insurance because you can’t afford the co-pays. It means choosing to let your previously good credit rating go down the tubes because you have to rotate which essential bills you pay when, just to keep them from getting three months behind and shut off. Being poor means that even though you shield your kids from the hardship, you find out sweet they are when they ask for grapes in the grocery store, but it’s not on your list because you don’t have the money for them and they offer you the nickle they found in the parking lot. It means sleeping with both kids in your bed because you can’t afford to have the thermostat above 59 degrees in the winter. And sometimes, being poor means not being able to get a job because people don’t want to risk you stealing from them, no matter how good your background check turns out. Sometimes things happen, and people can’t afford to drive to the grocery store, or pay their car insurance. I live in the country, and we bought a house that we could afford, on a “good” mortgage, and we both had good, steady jobs. Now I can’t afford to drive my children to their doctor appointments, and have to collect cans to put a little bit of gas into my car to be able to make it to a job interview. We never paid for television or went out to see movies, so there’s nothing really to cut. We grew our own vegetables in a large garden, raised chickens for eggs, but then something happens, the chickens are eaten by a weasle in the night, and that’s gone too. It’s hard to be poor. You can’t see the doctor for preventative care, and can’t afford to go when something happens, so it only gets worse.

  78. On the high price of fresh produce I would like to add that one of the big reasons they are so expensive is because the farmers that grow them knew they can sell them to grocery stores outside the area for higher profit than to locals. Gets on my nerves to see truckloads of fresh string beans, onions, cucumbers, etc… get shipped out of my local area. The only way to get your hands on any is to know someone that can hook you up under the table.

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