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Cop-killers, policing, crime and justice: Talking about Lovelle Mixon

Samhita caught some heat last week for writing about Lovelle Mixon, the Oakland man who murdered four police officers. Now she follows up with a post fleshing out her thoughts, and it’s well worth reading.

For a lot of us who are raised white and middle-class, police officers are protectors and sometimes heroes. They’re people we’re taught to trust — and often, though not always, we can trust them. We believe they help keep us safe. Sometimes they do keep us safe. And sometimes they don’t — just ask a rape survivor, or a woman seeking protection from a stalker or abuser. But the cultural narrative of the white middle-class is that the police are the good guys.

We also don’t interact with them very much.

That isn’t necessarily case for everyone — particularly in urban low-income communities of color. In those communities, police officers aren’t there to protect you so much as to police you. And while of course most individual police officers aren’t bad people, the police force structurally breeds abuse. It’s worse in some places and in some forces than others, but abuse is going to be pervasive in entities that exist to exert power and control through force — this is Psych 101 stuff.

Abuse by police officers and the criminal justice system isn’t something that a lot of middle-class white people understand first-hand. Police officers as threatening rather than protective isn’t something that a lot of middle-class white people grow up knowing. The inability to call the police for help — the very idea that calling the police will cause more problems, not less — isn’t a reality that a lot of middle-class white people live. When Jessica Hoffman wrote this phenomenal letter about policing and prisons, the community here was appalled by her suggestion that calling the police isn’t an option available to every woman, and that for a lot of us, “protection” is the exact opposite of what we expect from cops.

But that’s reality: For many people, the police are more of a threat than a help. For many women, policing is another tool of oppression.

And yet whenever policing or prisons come up on a feminist blog, the immediate question is, “Why is this a feminist issue?” and the discussion turns to quibbling over where we draw the lines of feminism. Is Sean Bell a feminist issue because he had a fiancee and a mother and women in his life who were impacted by his death? Is his murder a feminist issue because systems of oppression are interrelated, and what impacts one marginalized community impacts us all?

To be quite honest, I’m not all that interested in arguments over who and what we include or exclude from the feminist umbrella. I am interested in social justice norms that extend beyond what The Feminist Movement has designated important or valuable; I am interested in pursuing norms of social justice even when they challenge my feminism or don’t quite mesh with I understand feminism to encompass. I am interested in a feminism that is flexible, and that recognizes that my understanding of it, and my experience of female-ness, is not universal.

I am frustrated by the fact that feminist solutions to problems like sexual assault, intimate partner violence, sex trafficking, and a slew of other issues often rely on the police force and the legal system for “justice.” I am frustrated that by virtue of that reliance, a whole lot of women are left with limited recourse when they’re victimized — and a whole lot of women are victimized further. I am frustrated that entire communities are terrorized and left without a safety net, and people who I consider my allies and community members are seemingly unable to understand that maybe we don’t all pass through this world in the same way.

Surely we can chew gum and walk at the same time — we can realize that Lovelle Mixon did a truly terrible and unjustifiable thing, and simultaneously realize that our policing and criminal justice systems are fundamentally broken, and that this incident is going to have widespread and horrific effects on communities of color in Oakland. We can realize that the culture of violence and brutality that police forces help to breed creates troubling situations where people like Lovelle Mixon — a murderer and accused rapist — engender support. Samhita writes:

Mixon is a difficult person to build a narrative of police brutality around, but this story isn’t about him. He is dead, he can do no more harm. But the police state can, and most likely will, use this case as an excuse to continually police and brutalize people of color in Oakland. Mixon was a very extreme example of violence, but he is still part of an entire system of violence. The more we have a repressive police system that engages in extreme forms of violence, the more people will support the actions of a cop-killer. Some have suggested that if perhaps Oakland police and stood up against what happened to Oscar Grant, Oakland youth would be singing a different tune right now.

Just go read her.


64 thoughts on Cop-killers, policing, crime and justice: Talking about Lovelle Mixon

  1. FLESHING out her thoughts…

    /pedant

    (I’ve been trying to figure out how to tell a major client for more than a year that the phrase is “fleshing out”…)

  2. There was a story on NPR last week about the culture of snitching and it blew my mind how they could bring up Lovelle Mixon and not even nod their head in the direction of Oscar Grant. As if there is no reason whatsoever (aside from the rap lyrics NPR focused on) for certain communities to distrust the police.

  3. I normally don’t post here, but I read this and instantly thought of a piece I did recently as a response to the story Nicholas mentioned.

    Injustice In Seattle: Why Do Police Victimize Victims?

    I don’t say it in the narrative, but I do mention it in response to a comment made by a cop, the women in the story didn’t want to have the police involved because they were black and homeless and knew that police would make the incident worse than it was…

    Which is, sadly, what happened when a police officer pulled them over when they tried to get to a hospital after they were assaulted and nearly raped.

  4. “Indefensible” is a good, easy to read, book on how f-ed up our criminal justice system is from the POV of a Bronx public defender. As a public defender it sort of blows my mind how little other people know about how our “justice” system actually works, why innocent people end up pleading guilty, and how unfair the process can be. The book is a bunch of stories that illustrate a lot of the frustrations that poor people and their lawyers have with the system.

    The first time I had a police officer flat out lie on the stand, it blew my mind. This wasn’t a case of my client’s word versus the officer’s. This was an officer who testified under oath to A at the preliminary hearing, and to something completely different and incompatible under oath at trial. No question, one of them was a flat out lie. I had a tape recording of the officer’s previous, inconsistent testimony, and guess what – the judge did not give two shits.

  5. Thanks, Jill. The flushing/fleshing out has become a running joke in my office because no one can figure out how to correct the client without offending him. (It doesn’t come up frequently enough to make a joke of it, etc., etc.)

  6. I’m sure I’m going to catch hell for saying this but I’ll do it anyway. It seems that Lovelle Mixon was a piece of crap. He had a history of violence, a history of time in jail, and it looks like he was likely a racist. I certainly don’t shed any tears over his exit from this world.

    At the same time, I have a bit of trouble having much sympathy for the police. Reading the story, there were too many things which stood out to me, too many little details that even a biased story couldn’t quite cover up:

    1) The first was that Mixon was pulled over for “a possible expired registration.” I’ve been pulled over for that, so have quite a few of my friends. I’ve also been pulled over for a burned out tail light that didn’t turn out to be burned out at all. So our story begins with the police pulling over a black man in a Buick for what is essentially a shady/nuisance offense. I suppose we could assume that the stop had nothing to do with pulling over a black man and seeing what shook loose, but my lived experience tells me otherwise. Also, the story doesn’t say Lovelle was pulled over for an expired registration but “a possible expired registration.” If his registration was expired, they likely would have said as much in the press release. The story smells like it started with a bullshit stop.

    2) “During the stop, Dunakin requested Mixon’s license and ran a check, sources said, but he quickly became suspicious.” What does this mean? Well, we don’t really know as everyone involved is dead. Whatever happened, Mixon felt he was going to go to jail again and decided that anything would be better than going back. After being pulled over under suspicious circumstances, something happened that made him decide to fight. More importantly, something in Mixon’s history made him decide that finishing these officers off was better than letting them live. Think about what has to be going through someone’s head to make that decision. This isn’t a demon, this is a human being that made a decision.

    3) The story says that “[c]ommanders were concerned about the safety of the occupants inside the other apartments, and could not figure out a way to safely carry out an evacuation…Officers decided to enter the building.” Their response was to make an assault on the building without evacuating other residents because it was too hard. The police decided that getting Mixon was worth whatever collateral damage might result from the inevitable gun fight.

    4) Then theres a little throwaway line that tells us quite a lot: “Mixon’s 16-year-old cousin, who was sleeping inside the apartment when the officers entered, was not hit.” Someone was in the crossfire of this fire fight, someone who was sleeping. The police still fired flash-bangs (which, contrary to popular belief, do sometimes kill people and often cause serious injuries) and essentially picked a gunfight with a man they knew to be armed even though there were civilians in the way.

    So no, I’m not going to defend Mixon’s actions, but I’m not going to toe the line and say how terrible it was that these cops died. You had what seems to be a racist cop, backed up by another cop, shot to death by a man who seems to have been just as worthless as they were because they happened to try to play their little power games with a meaner dog. Then a whole army of police decided to put down this meaner dog even if it meant putting civilians in danger, even if it meant shooting up an occupied apartment building, even if it meant shooting over a 16 year old. And we mourn for these men?

    The system is fucked up, sure, but so is every single person involved.

  7. Quote: “we can realize that Lovelle Mixon did a truly terrible and unjustifiable thing, and simultaneously realize that our policing and criminal justice systems are fundamentally broken, and that this incident is going to have widespread and horrific effects on communities of color in Oakland. We can realize that the culture of violence and brutality that police forces help to breed creates troubling situations where people like Lovelle Mixon — a murderer and accused rapist — engender support.”

    The two subjects are not connected. Lovelle Mixon had a faked driver’s license and a bad attitude. Maybe a sneer, maybe a flipped middle finger, maybe a flinch when the cop looked at him. Something drew the cop to Mixon, and there was plenty of things to draw. It’s not connected to another day, nor to any other driver, nor to any other cop. It was a thing unique in itself, which had consequences unique in themselves.

    “… the culture of violence and brutality that police forces help to breed”? That’s not how it is. First there’s plenty of crime in that vicinity, a “target rich” environment. Police learn to poke hard enough to get a reaction. Often enough they get a reaction that leads to the next step. It’s a tough neighborhood, and both cops and neighbors are tough — it’s no big deal and it is a badge of honor to some that the cops hassled them. Now it’s tougher and more people will be hassled — get used to it.

    The 23rd homicide of 2009 happened last Friday, a woman shot driving down the block because her car looked like a car used in a shooting the previous day — talk about “profiling”, getting killed because your car looks like another car. That was black on black violence, nobody care her name, nobody writes stories about how her death was caused by the cops violence. Later that day the 24th homicide of the year, another black-on-black shooting, nobody cares what his name was because it can’t be used for divisive political agendas.

    No feminist cares about the pimp Mixon. No feminist cares when any pimp gets killed. They know that women are raped into submission to prostitution and subjected to a death sentence from incurable STDs. Mixon was identified as a pimp on the first day of the shootings by the NY Times. The media focussed on the child-molestation angle of the story of the raped 12-year-old, but feminists noticed the pimp detail without any help from the media to make Mixon more evil.

    Feminists noticed that Mixon hid behind the skirts of a 4 year-old niece and her babysitter who was Mixon’s own 16 year-old sister. Other people made Mixon a hero, but feminists noticed he put young girls in the crossfire hiding in the closet. No feminist thought Mixon was hero or represented anything that they wanted to hold up as a role model. Mixon’s own wife left him, feminists noticed. She knew him better than you do, and she couldn’t stand living with him.

    OK, so men police don’t do a good job investigating or prosecuting rapes, but women are on the forces now, and in the legislatures and DA’s offices and sometimes mayors or governors. There’s a big difference between a cop who implies you were asking for it when you got raped, and Mixon’s gang group-raping an unwilling female into a life of hooking.

  8. Lovelle Mixon had a faked driver’s license and a bad attitude.

    Which the cops couldn’t have possibly known about when they pulled him over…

    Maybe a sneer, maybe a flipped middle finger, maybe a flinch when the cop looked at him. Something drew the cop to Mixon, and there was plenty of things to draw.

    Yes, and the most obvious thing would be his skin tone. Even if it wasn’t, none of those are valid reasons for a cop to pull someone over, and at least the “sneer” and the “flinch” could well have been in the cop’s head. No one here is denying that Mixon was probably garbage, what a lot of us are pointing out is that there is more going on than just him being garbage. Sometimes two assholes get in a fight and kill eachother, and what caused the fight is generally far more illuminating than the value of the participants.

    It’s not connected to another day, nor to any other driver, nor to any other cop. It was a thing unique in itself, which had consequences unique in themselves.</blockquote?

    Bullshit. There is no such thing as a “unique thing.” Everything happens in the context of a larger society. You tell me police being overly aggressive and dominant towards people they perceive as socially weak didn’t have anything to do with this. Can you really say with a straight face that if Mixon hadn’t been pulled over something like this still would have happened?

    There’s a big difference between a cop who implies you were asking for it when you got raped, and Mixon’s gang group-raping an unwilling female into a life of hooking.

    No one is really disputing that Mixon was a poor example of the human race. Some of us are simply pointing out that he wasn’t the only poor example in the story.

    Being a rapist is bad. Using your authority to go in cowboy-style and start a gunfight without bothering to evacuate the building is in the same territory. Both involve a complete and total disregard of the needs and rights of others in pursuit of personal gain through violence, both are an example of individuals using power at the expense of those weaker than themselves. The only difference is that we, as a society, are conditioned to see one of these two groups of monsters as the heroes because they wear a badge.

  9. Jill wrote:

    I am frustrated by the fact that feminist solutions to problems like sexual assault, intimate partner violence, sex trafficking, and a slew of other issues often rely on the police force and the legal system for “justice.”

    I understand this frustration but I have also seen examples where the police force and the legal system are changed by feminists in a way which reduces injustice against women. In the examples where the police continue to fail segments of our population to the point that certain people won’t call the police that means that those agencies need more change and we cannot afford to give up on transforming those systems.

    Changing the criminal statutes isn’t enough, the changes need to permeate all the criminal justice systems.

    Iron fist policing doesn’t work. A strategy of escalation and intimidation doesn’t work. Under these models those who are innocent are harmed and those who are guilty benefit. Iron fist policing is sloppy policing and that’s not good for crime victims or wrongfully targetted suspects.

    With effective policing Mixon would have been in custody and the murdered cops would be alive today. So even though I disagree with the theory that Mixon was somehow driven over the edge by the police to murder 4 cops, the practices of that police department did allow that brutal crime to happen. This means finding a better alternative is good for not only the groups who have been harmed by the police it is good for the safety of police officers as well.

    With a combination of effective policing and effective crime prevention efforts Mixon might have made different choices and he and those 4 police officers could have been alive today. Too many tough on crime people reject effective prevention efforts because those efforts offend their sensibilities in some way. This is a lousy reason to prevent people — cops and civilians — from being murdered or brutalized.

  10. In the last sentence of my previous comment I meant to write “this is a lousy reason NOT to prevent people — cops and civilians — from being murdered or brutalized.

  11. Too many tough on crime people reject effective prevention efforts because those efforts offend their sensibilities in some way. This is a lousy reason to prevent people — cops and civilians — from being murdered or brutalized.

    The rub is that support of the police isn’t about preventing people from being brutalized. Police forces are about control and coercion. Police (and the criminal court system as a whole) exist not to protect but to enforce discipline upon a population. They are a mechanism of power, an expression of power, a means that a fairly simple machine (government) has of achieving a fairly simply goal (dominance). Foucault argued that we do not punish murderers because murder is wrong but because someone committing murder without a license is a threat to the institutions who have a monopoly on force. Thats why killing a cop carries a greater penalty and induces a greater response. The crime is no worse, but it presents itself as a threat which must be swiftly and visibly put down by the powers which feel threatened. Killing a cop is a challenge the the authority of the police and, in turn, a challenge to the authority of the government.

    Theres a reason people who are tough on crime tend to want to see more regimented discipline in all aspects of life.

  12. East Oakland is over 50% black, so the fact the cops pulled over a black man in this case is not very telling. Do we even know the race of the cops involved? Even if this was a pretext stop – using a technicality to pull over a suspected criminal – clearly the cops’ instincts were correct here since Lovelle was carrying an illegal firearm (probably why he freaked and opened fire on the cops) and was a pimp and a murderer. That seems like good police work. There is nothing wrong with cops using small technicalities to try to flush out criminals, nor should there be. Cops know their beats, they have a sixth sense about these things.

    As to the idea that there is something systemically wrong with police forces is overblown. This is not as simplistic as a prison experiment in psych 101. There are controls in place (at least in all the police forces I have had experience with) that complicate reality. Almost all forces now record all stops with visual and audio – making outright abuse statistically exceedingly rare. Are there problems? Of course – look to the shooting in Oakland earlier this year. But the idea that it is the norm is misplaced.

    Why are we even talking about these issues in this context? How is this better than people who blame rape victims for how they dressed or acted the night of their assault? Cops are not to blame for violence in poor neighborhoods. In NYC cops have managed to make minorities and the poor much safer. Go on a police ride along. You’ll learn a lot – there are many good decent people in poor neighborhoods who look to the police for protection against murderous drug gangs and other bad guys. “Snitch” culture is more about fear of retaliation against those who report these people than it is about a fear of police brutality.

    As to the Foucault idea – please. If you want to know why we have police ask yourself a question – would you rather live in a world with them or without them? Are you confident in your own strength and wit to protect yourself without any help from the government? Without modern police forces other less desirable forms of maintaining order would arise, like posses in the old west or lynch mobs in the south.

  13. There was a story on NPR last week about the culture of snitching and it blew my mind how they could bring up Lovelle Mixon and not even nod their head in the direction of Oscar Grant. As if there is no reason whatsoever (aside from the rap lyrics NPR focused on) for certain communities to distrust the police.

    Thanks for reminding me of that story. I heard it while I was sitting in my car, and my mouth just fell agape. How can you possibly call yourself a reporter when the question is: “Why do some communities—particularly marginalized communities, particularly communities of color—why do they not trust the police?” And yet you somehow fail to even consider that the answer might be, “Because the police keep shooting them. It makes one a might bit testy.”

    I am frustrated by the fact that feminist solutions to problems like sexual assault, intimate partner violence, sex trafficking, and a slew of other issues often rely on the police force and the legal system for “justice.”

    I want this not to be so. Wait, let me rephrase: in feminism, in my feminism, the state violence cannot be a solution, in part or in whole, to any of those problems.

    And sometimes that leaves me drifting and scared, because though I want to believe we can do this work in our communities, for our communities… well, sometimes we don’t. Sometimes we can’t. Sometimes we fuck up. And dealing with that—coming back and saying: this is right and just and within our power to do and within our power to do without violence—that’s a lot harder than wishing the police would do something, anything, because one of these days someone’s going to get hurt, or because one night someone already was.

  14. William said:

    The first was that Mixon was pulled over for “a possible expired registration.” I’ve been pulled over for that, so have quite a few of my friends. I’ve also been pulled over for a burned out tail light that didn’t turn out to be burned out at all. So our story begins with the police pulling over a black man in a Buick for what is essentially a shady/nuisance offense. I suppose we could assume that the stop had nothing to do with pulling over a black man and seeing what shook loose, but my lived experience tells me otherwise.

    I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the possible expired registration explanation were a pretext, but I don’t think it automatically indicates racial profiling. As a white girl who’s always driven pretty ordinary-looking cars, I’ve been pulled over for things like burned tail lights, expired registration or missing/temporary license plate stickers at least several times per year. So have most white people I know. It’s a convenient way for cops to make ticket quotas, and often they can do it with the understanding that you can get the fine wiped out by acting on it.

    Also, the story doesn’t say Lovelle was pulled over for an expired registration but “a possible expired registration.” If his registration was expired, they likely would have said as much in the press release. The story smells like it started with a bullshit stop.

    I assumed the official word was a possible expired registration because, with the officer who pulled him over dead, the PD couldn’t say for sure why he had been pulled over.

    Oh, and in response to your question about what “became suspicious” meant, it might be referring to this claim from an Oakland Tribune article:

    During the stop, Dunakin requested Mixon’s license and ran a check, sources said. Mixon’s picture was on the license, but the license number belonged to another person.

    However, I have no idea how said “sources” would have known that or who the sources are since, as you noted, everybody’s dead. Smells fishy.

  15. The stop sounds suspicious with the possible registration expiration b/c in California, that’s marked with a sticker on the back fender so did he just not have a sticker? If so, then they could have stopped him for possibly not being registered. The officers were traffic and traffic usually focuses mostly on enforcing traffic laws, not doing pretext stops. But it was two of them including a sergeant which is not usual and it appears they arrived together and not the sergeant being called by the officer.

    And since all the parties were killed in the stop, there’s no accounts from any involved even report doctoring if that’s what would have happened by the officers. Having to rebuild an incident involving a pre-text stop which led to the death of the motorist even with officers statements, is difficult.

    The officers were shot when running is license or papers and they were both shot in the head so they were supposed to die, given that most officers wear vests that protect their vital organs. Most shootings of officers or motorists occur in the first few minutes of the stop. One irony is that people are demanding more and harsher prisons to deter violent crime yet in this case, prison deterred this person to the point not to stop being violent but to engage in violence to avoid those “tougher on crime” prisons that California prides itself in being known for. So if they go in that “tough on crime” prison angle then what will happen is more incidents like this one. But then that’s what the state has turned the prisons into not to mention a business.

    The first time I had a police officer flat out lie on the stand, it blew my mind. This wasn’t a case of my client’s word versus the officer’s. This was an officer who testified under oath to A at the preliminary hearing, and to something completely different and incompatible under oath at trial. No question, one of them was a flat out lie. I had a tape recording of the officer’s previous, inconsistent testimony, and guess what – the judge did not give two shits.

    First time, surprising. Later on, the surprise fades during testimonies. Officers testifying at prelims different than what’s in their reports or arrest warrant (which itself might be different than reports) or different testimony at prelim or trial. One defense attorney said he cross-examined an officer for four hours, called him a “lying sack of s–t” which the community he polices already knows and that lawyer is now doing criminal defense at a police firm. Meaning that if the “lying sack of…” is ever arrested for anything, he could wind up being his attorney. Interesting how life works out.

    Another officer who testified was a total liar and fortunately the jury knew it and acquitted on the battery charge where he was the alleged victim. That officer was fired for lying on a report and to his supervisors and all the way to I.A. (until he was caught) and fired. Of course, he’s back now having been reinstated in arbitration with his record expunged.

    An officer who harassed me online allegedly denied it to I.A. investigators until they threatened to fire him. So he recanted. Our police commission allegedly exonerates officers for misconduct if they tell the truth or admit it about it to investigators as if to reward him. Which is interesting because what kind of finding do they give? That the action was justified, that it never happened? But they felt that the officers deserved exoneration simply for admitting to misconduct.

  16. I assumed the official word was a possible expired registration because, with the officer who pulled him over dead, the PD couldn’t say for sure why he had been pulled over.

    Unless there was radio traffic and the CAD sheet indicating anything that was done before the shootings. That might play a role in the “official word”. It might not.

    I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the possible expired registration explanation were a pretext, but I don’t think it automatically indicates racial profiling. As a white girl who’s always driven pretty ordinary-looking cars, I’ve been pulled over for things like burned tail lights, expired registration or missing/temporary license plate stickers at least several times per year. So have most white people I know. It’s a convenient way for cops to make ticket quotas, and often they can do it with the understanding that you can get the fine wiped out by acting on it.

    Racial profiling in pretext stops doesn’t end with being pulled over on the basis of race but that’s the focus by many people who insist that racial profiling isn’t occurring while sharing experiences they have as Whites where they were also pulled over.

    1) Are you pulled over by a traffic (motor officer) or a patrol car?

    2) Are you asked if you’re on probation or parole as your first or second question?

    3) Are you asked to keep your hands on the wheel?

    4) Do you keep your hands there b/c your parents told you to do so?

    5) Are you asked to step out to be searched?

    6) Are you asked to step out so your vehicle is searched?

    7)Are you asked to sit on the curb?

    8) Are you led handcuffed or not to sit in the back seat of the police car at any time (and then later released)?

    9) Are you cited or released with a warning? Actually in many pre-text stops citations aren’t written up? Black and Latino motorists in many studies have a higher rate of release without citation than Whites.

    10) Are you told you don’t look like you live/belong/should be in the neighborhood?

    11) Are you asked why you’re in the neighborhood? Who you know?

    12) Are you asked questions about your car? Where you got it? Told it looks like one that was reported missing/stolen?

    13) Are you asked questions about your hair? Cornrows? braids? Jheri curls?

    These are some of the questions asked during stops which clearly indicate part of a stop that is racial profiling that goes beyond just the choice to stop a person which in some cases, might not initially be racial if the officer can’t identify the race of the person in the car but could very well become a racial profiling stop anyway.

  17. “Almost all forces now record all stops with visual and audio – making outright abuse statistically exceedingly rare.”

    Seriously? Where do you live? I live in the relatively wealthy city of Alexandria, Virginia and we have ONE police cruiser with the capability of making a video recording. In 2.5 years as a public defender (and hundreds of traffic cases under my belt) I have had ONE case in which there was video of the stop, and that one was a stop by a State Trooper, not local police. NONE of our stops are audio or video recorded. Custodial interviews after arrest are generally video taped/digitally recorded. Stops are not.

  18. Emily:

    Well, I’m certainly not speaking for all cities. I know Austin does in most cases. And somebody mentioned the Moats case in Dallas, the entire incidient was captured on dashboard cam. This story says 67% of the cars there have the cams ($4400 a pop!). And officers are required to where mics there, so I think all stops are recorded at a minimum.

    http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/local/03/30/0330dashcams.html

    It has this stat:

    “According to the federal Bureau of Justice Statistics, as of 2003, 54 percent of police departments in cities with more than 250,000 people use in-car cameras.”

    Alexandria’s a relatively smallish suburb so that may be why.

    So maybe “all” was an overstatement.

  19. East Oakland is over 50% black, so the fact the cops pulled over a black man in this case is not very telling.

    Perhaps, perhaps not. I wonder if just over 50% of traffic stops involved blacks, although I’d be willing to bet that the number is disproportionate. Beyond that, we have a stop based upon a fishy pretense. If you have a city thats 50% black and 50% white with an exactly equal number of traffic stops you can still have serious racial harassment if there is a disproportionate number of citations issued, if the initial reasons for the stops are very different or, as Radfem detailed better than I could, if the behavior of the police is different.

    Do we even know the race of the cops involved? Even if this was a pretext stop – using a technicality to pull over a suspected criminal – clearly the cops’ instincts were correct here

    The race of the cops hardly matters. Black people can be racist too, the term is “internalized racism” and it can lead to some very pronounced distortions, especially in organizations with a high degree of institutional racism. The ultimate value of the cop’s instincts isn’t too relevant either. If you pull over enough black guys for looking shady eventually you’ll run into a Lovelle Mixon. Until then you’ll violate the rights of a staggering number of completely innocent people.

    As to the idea that there is something systemically wrong with police forces is overblown. This is not as simplistic as a prison experiment in psych 101. There are controls in place (at least in all the police forces I have had experience with) that complicate reality.

    Oh please. I’m really trying to argue in good faith here, but either you’ve never actually dealt with many aggressive police forces or you’re full of shit. There is something systematically wrong with police forces and we know it by the disproportionate numbers of black men in prison and the disproportionately negative experience of the police lived by marginalized groups. Hell, I’m a white guy and the closest I have ever had to a positive interaction with a cop is when I was able to avoid a friend’s arrest for running a house party with sudden cash donation to the CPD.

    As for controls being in place, I’d refer you to the work of Radley Balko.

    As to the Foucault idea – please. If you want to know why we have police ask yourself a question – would you rather live in a world with them or without them?

    Honestly? I’ve never once witnessed a police officer stop any crime other than hooking or the sale of illegal substances. I have seen more beatings committed by police than by civilians. I’ve been threatened with physical harm and rape more often by police than by civilians. A week doesn’t go by where I don’t see a cop tossing a teenager for being black and out after dark. I’ve even had one cop say to his partner after pulling me over while walking back to his car “told you he wasn’t a nigger.” My father was gassed by the police at the ’68 convention. Despite the fact that I had nothing illegal I’ve had my car searched without a warrant, my consent, or probable cause.

    You seem to think that people who don’t like the police sit in their homes making quilts for convicts with the understanding that knights in bullet proof armor will ride in to save the day. I already live without the police. I’ve tried to live in a world with them, but on all three occasions when I have needed the police they have failed me utterly. If my home is broken into I won’t be reaching for a phone to dial 911, I’ll be reaching for a Remington because I know for a fact that I’m more dependable than the police three and a half blocks away. I wish that wasn’t the case, but wishing doesn’t make it so.

  20. Well, I’m certainly not speaking for all cities. I know Austin does in most cases. And somebody mentioned the Moats case in Dallas, the entire incidient was captured on dashboard cam. This story says 67% of the cars there have the cams ($4400 a pop!). And officers are required to where mics there, so I think all stops are recorded at a minimum.

    In Illinois the police fought a bill requiring that all interrogations be taped. Some of the strongest opposition came from Chicago, where police had been known in the past to use electric shocks to the genitals to elicit confessions. Make of that what you will.

  21. William:

    I cannot argue against your experiences in Chicago. There may very well be worse systemic problems here. Most of my experience is in Austin where the police bend over backwards to avoid even the perception of racial profiling, actively recruit minorities (including gays and lesbians) etc. There was one incident I know of recently where a minority was killed reaching for a phone and they fired all involved, changed policy etc.

    Also you said that for every pretext stop which leads to a Mixon there a numerous where people have rights violated. As I said earlier I do not believe it is a violation of one’s rights to be pulled over for a technically lawful purpose even if the cop is doing it as a hunch for something bigger. I could see disagreement with that. I certainly don’t like being pulled over for expired registration (happened more than once) but I still appreciate what they’re doing.

    I realize cops aren’t very good at stopping most crimes in progress. I’m not naive – I own a weapon too and have a concealed handgun license. But with no enforcement mechanism at all society would clearly be worse off – cops are the ones who actually go and enforce our laws.

  22. When Jessica Hoffman wrote this phenomenal letter about policing and prisons, the community here was appalled by her suggestion that calling the police isn’t an option available to every woman, and that for a lot of us, “protection” is the exact opposite of what we expect from cops.

    I will tell you right now that I was one of those people, and I wish I could go back and delete what I wrote, and delete it from people’s minds. I was in a very, very bad state of mind, and I shouldn’t have been posting anywhere. I’m very sorry.

    That said, I’m not unsympathetic to arguments that the criminal justice system is extremely broken, or even that it should be drop-kicked into the ocean in its entirety. What I want to know is, right now, today what should a woman do instead of involving law enforcement when she and her children are being terrorized by a man and they are scared out of their gourds? Should she not go to the hospital when she is raped, since that will result in a police report? Should she not call 911 if she finds her partner dead in a pool of blood on the ground? Should she not put out an APB if someone she knows is missing? When white cis speaking middle-class women are in a state of emergency, they aren’t going to stop and think, “Oh gee, I’d better not call the cops, it’s unfair to people of color and they don’t even protect most white people all that well,” even if they know it’s true. Because they’re fucking terrified and don’t have another immediate solution to reach for when they are in survival mode, right now, today.

    It’s all well and good to say we should have our neighbors looking out for us, we should have a wide thick fiercely loyal circle of friends living nearby who will rush in and do anything they can to protect us…but what if we don’t have that at the moment? A lot of women are socially isolated, and the few friends they have nearby will scatter like cockroaches in the light if there is a person in her life giving her serious trouble. Should only women who are socially adept enough to form a tight-knit neighborhood group immediately, wherever they go, be allowed to survive? I doubt anyone is saying that, exactly, but I have looked and looked and not found an answer to my question, “What should I do instead of involving law enforcement if something horrible happens to me today?” Maybe I just don’t know where to look.

  23. Opposing voice wrote: “clearly the cops’ instincts were correct here since Lovelle was carrying an illegal firearm”

    This isn’t necessarily true. This could have indeed been a routine traffic stop or one of many times when cops had an instinct based on some surface detail which most often meant nothing.

    Radfem wrote: “One irony is that people are demanding more and harsher prisons to deter violent crime yet in this case, prison deterred this person to the point not to stop being violent but to engage in violence to avoid those “tougher on crime” prisons that California prides itself in being known for.”

    Again this isn’t necessarily true. Mixon might have murdered those cops simply because he had no qualms at committing murder and had the belief that this would remain an unsolved crime.

  24. Meowser, I totally agree. And really no worries about the last thread — I think we’ve all said things online we wish we could take back.

    I don’t think anyone is suggestion that women shouldn’t go to the police. What I’m saying is that, as feminist activists, we need to offer a variety of solutions that meet the needs of a variety of communities. Calling the police may meet my needs, and so it should of course be on the table; it may not be an option, though, for women from other walks of life. And so yes, we should also push the police force to address everyone’s needs, but as you say, we need solutions right now. For women who don’t come from white middle-class backgrounds, calling the police, today, may not be an option.

    So I guess, in a nutshell, I’m saying: Call the police if that will work for you. Of course call the police if it’s going to make you safer! But feminist and anti-violence activists should also make an effort to provide a variety of solutions, so that women who don’t feel like they can call the police can still be safe.

  25. “Almost all forces now record all stops with visual and audio – making outright abuse statistically exceedingly rare.”

    Um, says who?

    Few agencies mandate the use of either and even those that do, have policies in place which might minimize the required use of these devices to officer-initiated contacts which in most agencies aren’t as large a percentage of contacts in the field as are other contacts. Officers often violate these policies and all they have to do is make up an excuse to say why their recorder’s not on or why it turned itself on, paused, went on and off and on and so forth. The recorders themselves are harder to tamper with in terms of not leaving evidence of said tampering but again, it all depends on the integrity of those following up on recording gaps and failures. Not to mention that the vast majority of recordings get downloaded and stored without ever being listened to. Most of the time it’s only when a complaint is filed which isn’t nearly always the case when police misconduct happens.

    I mean someone sent me something saying an officer has sex on duty and records it but unless someone knows who he is and goes looking for it, it’s sitting in some database until its purge date.

    There’s no doubt about it recording devices can be very useful but they’re not infallible and most police conduct still isn’t being recorded by police-issued equipment.

    Emily:

    Well, I’m certainly not speaking for all cities. I know Austin does in most cases. And somebody mentioned the Moats case in Dallas, the entire incidient was captured on dashboard cam. This story says 67% of the cars there have the cams ($4400 a pop!). And officers are required to where mics there, so I think all stops are recorded at a minimum.

    http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/local/03/30/0330dashcams.html

    It has this stat:

    “According to the federal Bureau of Justice Statistics, as of 2003, 54 percent of police departments in cities with more than 250,000 people use in-car cameras.”

    Alexandria’s a relatively smallish suburb so that may be why.

    So maybe “all” was an overstatement.

    I wonder how they calculated that stat and how many cameras a police department had to have to qualify. Is it all squad cars (which I doubt) half of them, a quarter or just one?

    The thing is very few cities relatively speaking are 250,000 or higher and that’s barely half of those that are and not all cities have their own police departments as many contract with county agencies which might be counted.

    Most agencies under some sort of federal or state reform mandate like consent decrees have to install them but again, that’s about a dozen agencies in the entire country of different sizes in different sized cities.

    Speaking of the mic, it’s affective about 200 feet from its receiver. So it can be used at that range in lieu of an audio recorder.

    My city has cameras installed in all of its squad cars. The process of doing this I can say from personal experience was quite arduous, after the department installed the first 10 required under its reform decree. It took four years for the rest of them to be installed and relentless pushing.

  26. The police are not a monolith, but those who paint them all positively or negatively both fall into this trap. Even when an injustice happens there is no one known cause. Some cops are cruel and even criminal so when they shoot an innocent man they have committed premeditated murder while other cops are responding to their fear and bad training. The first cop should go to prison while the other cop should get better training until that mistake won’t happen again or that cop should find a job where they can’t possibly make that mistake again.

    On the issue of unequal sentencing the differences can come from very different problems. There is intentional injustice and there is the injustice which comes because of faulty assumptions in creating laws, enforcing them or sentencing those rightfully convicted.

    Inequities can have a snowball effect. 2 teens may commit identitical crimes but if background or identity skew the outcome only one will be convicted. Even if the one who is convicted gets a light sentence, when these 2 later commit another set of identical crimes, the injustice gap widens even more. Continue on to another set of identical crimes and even without current bias, and with equal charges and equal convictions, the outcome will be skewed and that skewing could mean one criminal gets probation while the other gets the 3rd strike and is sent to prison for life.

    We had a local case where a white man with a long history of interaction with the police murdered a black man. Because that long history didn’t include any convictions this murder was considered a first offense. But it clearly wasn’t a first offense, it was the latest in an escalation of criminal behavior. The victim had a similar history but he had convictions so if he had been the perpetrator instead of the victim, he would have most likely received a life sentence. The 2 men weren’t originally from the same city so it wasn’t that the same cops were skewing the sentencing if the victim and perpetrator had been reversed. This shouldn’t be an excuse to ignore inequity.

    For this reason reviews are needed to see where inequities can be found so that skewed sentences can be adjusted. Jursidictions should not be excused from accountability just because they didn’t mean to be unjust.

    Some police forces are hostile to calls for change even when those changes would improve the safety of their officers, but other police forces are eager to be responsible and responsive to everyone they deal with and especially to marginalized populations. If those who are harmed assume all police forces are hostile they may miss opportunities to work with those forces who want to do right by all citizens and to treat everyone — even the guilty with respect. A police force that wants to be successful at treating all populations with respect and accountability and which has a reduction in crime may educate other police forces.

    For many cops it will take having another cop telling them to make a particular change for that change to happen.

  27. Most of my experience is in Austin where the police bend over backwards to avoid even the perception of racial profiling, actively recruit minorities (including gays and lesbians) etc. There was one incident I know of recently where a minority was killed reaching for a phone and they fired all involved, changed policy etc.

    That sounds like reasonable, rational police policy. Unfortunately, I suspect that Austin is the exception rather than the norm. I know from first hand sources about system-level police problems in New York, LA, Atlanta, and Baltimore. The work of Radley Balko (who you really should check out, he blogs at theagitator.com) has opened my eyes to a lot of the problems that come from procedure across the country and the role of police in both wrongful-convictions and conflict escalation in minority communities. My own experiences in Chicago and it’s suburbs, as well as my experiences driving around the Midwest and the near-South on roadtrips with a person of color, tended to confirm rather than disprove my perceptions. I apologize if I came at you aggressively.

    violated. As I said earlier I do not believe it is a violation of one’s rights to be pulled over for a technically lawful purpose even if the cop is doing it as a hunch for something bigger. I could see disagreement with that. I certainly don’t like being pulled over for expired registration (happened more than once) but I still appreciate what they’re doing.

    I do object for several reasons. First: when pulling someone over on a technical pretext on a hunch the biases of individual officers are going to seep through and you’re going to end up with poor public relations. The police have to be aware of their own history, particularly within certain communities, and that awareness might sometimes mean that they give up a little bit of their power in exchange for not perpetuating the negative views a given population has about them. Second: when police pull people over on a prextext you’re often running into a situation in which the cop involved was bored. I understand that sitting in a car with nothing to do all day is boring, but using your official power to ruin someone else’s day to alleviate your own boredom is a sign of a pretty severe sense of entitlement. Third: pretext stops (and traffic stops in general) aren’t really protecting the public, they’re generating revenue for the city in question. When a cop writes a ticket for an expired registration or a hairline crack in a windshield what they’re doing is stepping out of their role as public servant/defender and into the role of armed tax collector. That change in role isn’t going to do anything for police-civilian cooperation. Finally, police engaging in pretext stops are displaying a behavior that I find very disturbing: its part of an us-vs-them mentality that is all too common in the police. It is a symptom of the feeling that many police do have that its their job to ferret out criminals and that anyone, especially people who look a certain way, need to prove that they’re not shady.

    But with no enforcement mechanism at all society would clearly be worse off – cops are the ones who actually go and enforce our laws.

    I think a lot of that might have to do with privilege. I’m not so sure that society would be clearly worse off, and most days I’m pretty convinced that once all was said and done it would be a wash. I’ve lived in communities where there was effectively no policing. I know that there are communities in Chicago where the police simply don’t respond or don’t leave their cars during patrols. In the Englewood neighborhood in Chicago the situation got so bad in the 1970s that one of the local street gangs took over the job of police for a significant period and saw pretty high public approval. In my daily life, the absolute best I can hope for is that if I am a victim of a crime theres a 70% or so chance that the police might put someone away for it, provided its the right person. Perhaps most importantly, the bulk of a modern American officer’s job isn’t protecting but arresting people for consensual crimes. Between gambling/vice, prostitution, public drunkenness, and the staggering number of drug offenses that make it to the books during any given year most of your average police force’s job is morality enforcement. Thats not protection, thats investigation and punishment. Hell, in Chicago I’m not even allowed to carry a gun to protect myself, I’m forced to depend on a police force that I know is undependable; the justification for such a law is largely the safety of police officers. What does it say about a police force that is honestly afraid of being killed if vetted, law-abiding citizens with clean criminal records were allowed to carry weapons?

    Worst, for me at least, is that I know that I have it good because I am white, professional, and rapidly approaching middle class. My bad experience is actually above average.

  28. Austin has its own problems. I know people who did Cop Watch there and they had the notorious case of the woman who was arrested on a DUI and couldn’t get a rape kit (and was the email exchange I had with the head of investigations very interesting!)not to mention some rather embarrassing DOJ probing into their narcotics bureau. Hopefully, it’s cleaning up its act in the past five or so years. It’s not as bad as some other Texas cities like Houston and San Antonio for example.

    Actually, policing was a community issue done by community members until people started paying other people to do their policing shifts and then eventually, the first professionalized police agency was created, not all that long ago.

    The police are not a monolith, but those who paint them all positively or negatively both fall into this trap. Even when an injustice happens there is no one known cause. Some cops are cruel and even criminal so when they shoot an innocent man they have committed premeditated murder while other cops are responding to their fear and bad training. The first cop should go to prison while the other cop should get better training until that mistake won’t happen again or that cop should find a job where they can’t possibly make that mistake again.

    No, police officers aren’t a monolith. Actually they vary as much in many ways individually as the population at large does, but what’s the “monolith” (and what encourages that line of thinking) is the institutional culture (and its accompanying subcultures) which they all share. Some call it the “thin blue line” and studies show that the majority of police adhere to that line fully knowing it’s not required to be *good* police officers and knowing the devastating impact that “code” can have on things like public trust.

    The problem with focusing on the individualism of “good” and “bad” and I’ve fallen prey to both at one time or another is that you’re often left supporting another disproven theory, the “bad apple” theory. That departments are good, most officers are good, but they’re these “bad apples” (or “rogues” as they are often called) and the key is looking at the treatment of these officers. Yes, some are definitely worse but they’re not “bad apples”. Watch to see the laundry list of exoneration they receive on their complaints (and that’s when you can get that information at all as often it requires canvassing communities where complaints come from) and how many lawsuits filed against them the city fights aggressively for a while and then quietly settles. As police departments exonerate these officers over and over, others like lawyers, judges (usually those approaching retirement) or people outside that department will make comments out them.

    Look at what their supervisors do. Their peers do. Do you know what an officer looks like who’s watching misconduct by his partner, his training officer, his subordinate or his supervisor that he or she may not necessarily agree with but you get the blank-slate look that says I’m not surprised this individual is doing this but I’m not going to tell on him or her. Or the supervisor who not only may not necessarily like what his subordinate is doing but he takes out his own feelings about it on the victim. And these are the behaviors of the “good” ones who aren’t keen on misconduct but won’t ever report it because of that culture. Then there’s all of these that engage in it.

    I’ve been harassed by a sergeant right in front of his police chief (only in that case, the police chief did “check” him out of sight probably because it made him look bad). Seriously the one time I heard about a sergeant chewing an officer out on his misconduct in public, I did cheer but that’s so very rare. That’s an aberration not the rule.

    Some police forces are hostile to calls for change even when those changes would improve the safety of their officers, but other police forces are eager to be responsible and responsive to everyone they deal with and especially to marginalized populations. If those who are harmed assume all police forces are hostile they may miss opportunities to work with those forces who want to do right by all citizens and to treat everyone — even the guilty with respect. A police force that wants to be successful at treating all populations with respect and accountability and which has a reduction in crime may educate other police forces.

    I agree with parts of this but it’s very tricky in practice. In part because of how again, the “good” officers are treated when they do try to do the right thing. No matter what police agencies say, most of them don’t support this at all. I’ve met better officers (including believe it or not, some through my blog), I know some who truly make a difference and what happens? In most cases, their own agency tries to chop them off at the knees. They get frustrated because there’s too few of them that actively try to do the right thing (and possibly more that might lean that way but don’t do much because again, cultural expectations).

    Unfortunately, the ones who are hostile still often are in control of what a police force does. They’re the loudest, they’re often in management. They might run the labor unions (though there are a couple exceptions I know of) and so forth.

    Sometimes the best you can hope for is to work for positive change in a tiny area. But departments embracing broad-range changes that benefit all populations, that’s very hard to find if you can find it.

    For many cops it will take having another cop telling them to make a particular change for that change to happen.

    Ah, now there’s the rub…

  29. Police brutality? How about Mixon’s brutality to the twelve-year-old girl he raped? Why is that being ignored? What the fuck?

  30. Ginmar, it’s not being ignored. NO ONE has defended Mixon as a person; no one has defended his actions. What we’re doing is using his story as a jumping-off point to discuss systematic oppressions. The post wasn’t about Lovelle Mixon as an individual. We discuss the systematic oppression of women just about every day on this blog. Cara and I both contributed to an anthology that specifically addressed the oppression of women through sexual assault. So please don’t suggest that we ignore the oppression of women in favor of discussing police brutality or that we stand up for rapists. We don’t.

    As a parallel, I think Saddam Hussein was one of the worst people ever. But I still think it was wrong for us to invade Iraq; I think it was wrong for him to be executed. Pointing that out doesn’t ignore the horrific crimes that Huseein perpetrated. Surely, as I said in the post, we can walk and chew gum at the same time.

  31. I’ll also add that feminists haven’t chosen Mixon as a poster-boy. We’re talking about him because tensions in Oakland are high right now after Oscar Grant, and Mixon’s actions may be a tipping point for more violence. We’re responding to a story in progress; we aren’t the ones setting the media or social narrative here.

  32. Sorry, don’t buy it. You’re writing about a rapist. What, did all the unjustly-treated black guys disappear from Oakland that you have to talk about this shitstain? And Samhita’s post was a perfect example of why feminism needs to put women first. Did she actually call this twelve-year-old girl a young woman? Isn’t that the exact sort of thing feminists are supposed to call out when it’s used, for example, on a young Iraq girl who was raped and murdered? Why not here?

    The tipping point in this case ought to be the rape victim, but nobody seems to give much of a shit about her, what with cooing over the guy who raped her and women at gunpoint. Published reports indicate the DNA match in that cae led to the warrant for his arrest. No, that’s not a reasonable excuse for a traffic stop at all.

    If people want to take to the streets over his victims, I say light the torches and lead the way. Him? Scumbag. There’s no excuse for the attention he’s getting or the way this is being framed on some feminist blogs. Every minute you talk about him is a minute you’re not talking about the twelve-year-old victim, or the victims who were supposedly prostitutes—or who were just called prostitutes. I don’t see any coverage of that issue at all.

    A friend of mine said she wouldn’t send her biracial niece here, for fear she’d get the message that girls like her don’t matter as long as a man is around. What, are rape victims symptoms of some guy’s issues? Sure seems like it.

    Just unbelievable. No wonder What About Our Daughters is pissed. She’s right.

    You’re not doing black men any favors by focusing on this scumbag. Yeah, yeah, yeah, powderkeg, but this is just more “But What About the Men?!” The victim isn’t even a footnote. As Abysstohope points out, this wasn’t a deviation in form for this guy. And what…he reacted to deprivation by raping a girl and women at gunpoint? No. Just no. Rape is not in response to anything, is not caused by injustice, does not feed a man, or clothe him, or benefit anyone but those who hate women. Abyss also says that this attitude insults all the decent ex cons out there who are trying to find their way in the world, and I know some people like that.

    This is a serious error in perspective. If the victims had received as much coverage and analysis as this…this….rapist then it wouldn’t be as infuriating. Is rape so justly judged in this world that we can afford to waste any opportunity to defend and protect its victims? You can’t argue that this is intersectionality because there’s no intersection here, no cross street. It’s all about him.

  33. I am frustrated by the fact that feminist solutions to problems like sexual assault, intimate partner violence, sex trafficking, and a slew of other issues often rely on the police force and the legal system for “justice.”

    Yet you are pro-GEMS?

    Just sayin.

  34. Ginmar, I would agree with you that what feminist blogs are doing in regards to this issue is fucked up, if I thought they were doing what you’re accusing them of doing. And I don’t.

    Jill does focus on women in this post. This post is about 10 paragraphs long — Lovelle Mixon gets a mention in 2 of them. The rest are not about him. They are about police brutality and interaction, and how that affects women who are the victims of violence!

    What, are rape victims symptoms of some guy’s issues? Sure seems like it.

    Please quote me exactly where Jill or Samhita or anyone else has indicated that. Samhita said that Lovelle’s reaction to the police was a response to a systematic problem — not his decision to rape. You can disagree with her assessment, but she’s not making the one you seem to think that she’s making.

    What is being asked here is, really, a) how does police brutality impact communities of color including and especially those women who are the victims of violent crime and b) why are the murders that Lovelle Mixon committed so much more important than the murders committed by police officers?

    Now, if you were to ask the question “why are the men that Lovelle Mixon murdered getting so much attention than the 12-year-old he raped,” that is a critique I can get on board with. And I’d even agree with you that it’s one that should have come up by now.

    But I don’t see it as the argument you’re making. I see you asking why people are “cooing over” a rapist, and I don’t perceive that to be what’s going on here, at all.

  35. In other words: if I thought that anyone was saying “poor Lovelle Mixon, he became a rapist because of the police and it’s not his fault!” I’d be with you and Marcella saying hold the fuck up. I’d be saying “that is extremely fucked up, and it’s wrong, and it is rape apologism, and I can’t believe you said that” and I’d be writing angry blog posts about it, too.

    But I see absolutely no one saying that.

  36. In NYC cops have managed to make minorities and the poor much safer.

    OMG. You are joking right?

    _____

    As to Lovelle Mixon, glad he is dead.

  37. I already live without the police.

    Yeah I already live in a world without the…function that the police that the police are supposedly supposed to fill. The “protection.” Right.

  38. Yeah I already live in a world without the…function that the police that the police are supposedly supposed to fill. The “protection.” Right.

    Right, but like, thats your choice. If you needed them I’m sure they’d be there with bells on. I mean, thats what they do. They’re the police…

    /privilegesnark

  39. Yet you are pro-GEMS?

    Just sayin.

    Yeah, I am pro-GEMS. Do I think they’re the end-all be-all of feminist activism? No. Do I think that they offer the only model we should use? Of course not. But I do think they do good work. I know a lot of women who they’ve helped. They’re an organization of survivors helping survivors. I don’t think they’re perfect, but yes, I do support them. This thread isn’t about GEMS, though.

    Ginmar, we’re just going to have to disagree on this. I wrote about Mixon because it’s a serious issue in Oakland right now, not because he’s a poster boy who I’m choosing. I agree with the critique that he’s a bad poster boy, and I wish the focus were on someone else; I agree with the critique that more of the discussions should center on the girl he raped. But the reality is that this incident has spawned a broader conversation; that’s what I’m responding to.

  40. The only model? How can you say what you did and support ANY model that relies on court mandated participation? No this thread isn’t about GEMS, but you wouldn’t reply to me, or Lyssa, in the thread that WAS about GEMS. It is good that they are providing services to girls and young women in the sex trade. But there are not only other models, there are other orgs out there following those models, here in NYC! As in, harm reduction, voluntary participation, while providing services to youth in the sex trade. And GEMS could do the same. I am aware that the woman who founded it is a survivor. So was Norma Hotaling (or at least, she was formerly a prostitute)…do you support SAGE?

    Did you meet hand-picked women at your fundraiser or are these actual friends of yours? I am glad that they were helped, honestly, I am so glad of that, but state-mandated participation is NOT the way to do it, and there are counter-stories.

    Hell, GEMS is not even my “pet issue” here, believe it or not. I’d love to keep talking about how much I hate the pigs. But it is all part of the same issue, the same system, the SAME fucking thing!!

  41. Why is that last comment in moderation? All I did was argue with you. And I am a long-time reader and commenter here, I am not some drive-by troll.

  42. Believe it or not you can provide services without mandated participation, shaming stigmatizing your clients, christian rhetoric and prayer from an organization that receives state funding, and partnership with the people who call the sex workers rights movement the “pro-pimp lobby.”

  43. Cara, when so-called feminists ignore rape victims to focus on how ‘the culture of violence’ creates a guy, that sends a profound message to women and rape victims, not to mention scumbags. What ‘culture of violence’ produces rapists, exactly? It doesn’t. It’s the kind of thing that ‘humanists’ and ‘equalists’ use to argue that ‘feminism’ is too specific. Sexism and hatred of women produces rapists.

    This guy is a rapist. You’re not covering the victim. You’re talking about him like he’s the end of a chain, but his victims are the ones who need to be discussed. This case would not even be an issue if the cops had valued his previous rape victims more than the rapist did. If they had pursued those cases, Mixon would be in jail, a young girl would not have gone through a nightmare, and four cops would still be alive.

  44. Cara, there are things that you can say by putting them into words—or by just by ignoring the big huge fucking elephant in the room. The discussion of rape needs to be dominated by the welfare of the victims. And, yes, I DO see various feminists saying that Mixon was pushed to it by a ‘culture of violence’ or police brutality of whatever. He made choices: he denied that to his victims. The police also made choices, too.

    How many rape victims are reading this and wondering what’ll happen if their rapist touches off a powder keg? Are they going to be stepped over to focus on the guy who raped them?

  45. This guy is a rapist. You’re not covering the victim. You’re talking about him like he’s the end of a chain, but his victims are the ones who need to be discussed. This case would not even be an issue if the cops had valued his previous rape victims more than the rapist did. If they had pursued those cases, Mixon would be in jail, a young girl would not have gone through a nightmare, and four cops would still be alive.

    And if you’d paid attention to what people were actually saying, as to what you wanted to hear, you would have noticed that most of the people on this thread were talking about that. The big problem in the Mixon case is that Mixon was a piece of shit and so were the police. The big problem is that the cops didn’t give a shit about Mixon until he was a black guy driving a car to harass. The problem is that the culture which put these two violent forces in front of eachother did nothing to prevent their meeting and everything to foster it. The problem is that not only did the police not care enough to pursue the rapes Mixon committed but they didn’t even care enough not to start a gunfight in an occupied apartment building.

    The point is not that Mixon is a victim and society is to blame, anyone with a pulse could see that that argument is bullshit. The point is that the police, and the culture/society which created both them and Mixon, were complicit. Their inaction and their selective attention were as bad as Mixon’s actions and, as you argued, allowed Mixon to continue with his actions until someone they cared about was harmed. Rape a 12 year old (presumably black) girl? The police don’t care. Kill a cop who was likely engaging in racial profiling? Respond with any available force regardless of collateral damage. Thats what people here were objecting to, that police mentality that only cared about Mixon as a black man to harass and then as a target to destroy because he challenged their power. The mentality that viewed raping a 12 year old to force her into prostitution as less worthy of attention than a possibly expired tag on a license plate.

    Not paying attention to the Mixon case (meaning not paying attention to the role of the police) is doing exactly the same thing the police did. Mixon likely wouldn’t have continued to offend had the police investigated properly, but they didn’t because they didn’t give a shit. That allowed him to continue offending. We could focus on how bad a guy Mixon is, but he’s dead. We could focus on a 12 year old victim but, sadly, we’d be spoiled for choice. Or, we could focus on the police force that is likely to continue allowing future Mixons to victimize more people in the future.

  46. Why is that last comment in moderation? All I did was argue with you. And I am a long-time reader and commenter here, I am not some drive-by troll.

    FYI, comments go into moderation all the time. Sometimes my own comments go into moderation, because some word sets off the mod-bot. No one put you on perma-moderation for arguing.

  47. Having spent time trying to push my city to stop cutting over-time for sexual assault and child abuse detectives, it’s hard to get them to care. I think they finally restored about six hours of it. Other than that, all the crimes that need investigators beyond 8-6, go to homicide which was allowed one over-time detective. Some said they would go out regardless of pay and the captain of investigations said that no crime would be ignored due to failure to pay overttime but it’s hard to know for sure.

    And no, not all women and girls are treated the same. A friend of mine was reminded of that when her daughter was the victim of attempted rape and was possibly drugged by a guy she met and she was trying to get the test done in a very narrow window of opportunity for these drugs but the police just came out and said, “gee doesn’t look like a rape took place here.” Not White, not middle-class, doesn’t qualify. It’s also difficult when you live in communities where SWAT goes in and charges into people’s homes even when children are there. Including when SWAT is used to back up code enforcement. On one hand if there’s a rapist, you want that person to be caught so they can’t prey on your child or wife or mother but then again, there’s fear of police violence in communities when they finally decide to look for a rapist (and that’s very rarely the case if the victim’s not White, and/or relatively well off economically). It’s easier to look at one side of the coin when you’re outside of it and personally, I think that’s a stumbling block often for feminism although there’s feminist groups and women’s groups (and yes, often the two are mutually exclusive) that address both violence against women in the communities and violence by police and/or immigration agents for example. When it comes to violence against women’s movements, these groups and organizations don’t get as much attention. INCITE is a good one and locally, some interest in my city about starting one, which would be interesting considering our local university recently hired Andrea Smith.

    I doubt the two motor officers pulled him over on a warrant. They probably didn’t know or knew in the final seconds before they were killed. Otherwise, it’s doubtful that they would have used motor officers to do the stop for precisely that reason. They have little or no cover.

  48. William wrote: “Rape a 12 year old (presumably black) girl? The police don’t care. ”

    This is not true. If they had ignored her there would have been no DNA match from her case or the match would be made years from now after the evidence sat unprocessed. A warrant wasn’t issued immediately on that rape charge because they have a policy of checking the result to ensure it wasn’t made in error before making an arrest. This policy was most likely a response to rightful outrage over lab errors.

  49. RadFem, you make great points about SWAT teams and the failure to see a practice from more than 1 perspective. Too often people (feminists, non-feminists, cops, anarchists, etc) who vary in many ways have this same problem. Many people have mirroring blindspots. This is why the best models for policing try to bring in a variety of perspectives so that there is feedback which lets them know when they are missing important perspectives.

  50. This is not true.

    Do you think the police would have spent the resources and risked the lives they did to bring in Mixon as a child rapist? Do you think maybe the rape kit in question got bumped to the front of the line once the brass realized they needed something to toss to the press to ease tensions? Do you think that maybe, just maybe, the police assigned to the rape gave it their full attention once they had the chance to close the case and add to the load on a cop-killer?

    If they had ignored her there would have been no DNA match from her case or the match would be made years from now after the evidence sat unprocessed.

    Look at the story. The rape wasn’t last week, it was two months ago. It was one of five rapes with a similar M.O. Some of the victims had been prostitutes, and somehow the police never managed to catch the guy. The 12 year old victim gave police a good sketch of Mixon. Still no dice. It still took over a month for a DNA match to come down the pipe even though his DNA was already in the system. In the mean time at least one other woman was raped under the same circumstances and in the same way Mixon had raped the girl, although even with all the increase attention DNA tests “are still pending” in that case. Mixon had had a warrant out for his arrest since at least February for skipping a meeting with his parole officer, but somehow he was still out and about. The cop investigating the rape went home when he found out Mixon was a match because there was already the parole violation warrant out for him. I mean, sure, it had been out for a month, but no rush, he’s just a serial rapist.

    Not giving a shit can take a lot of forms, going the motions without actually trying is one of them. The man lived in the area, he had family in the area, he probably had an address. Somehow, even though he had skipped parole and looked good for a series of rapes, he never got caught until a cop who pulled him over in the neighborhood for a “possibly expired registration” got shot. Excuse me if I’m skeptical.

  51. the pigs are evil, they oppress me and many blacks every, the police mandate for black people isn’t to serve and protect, but to harrass and provoke.

  52. William wrote: “It still took over a month for a DNA match to come down the pipe even though his DNA was already in the system.”

    This is a fast turnaround, not a slow turnaround as you allege. Rape kits have sat unprocessed until the statute of limitations have expired. Other valid rape reports may have been bungled because of bigotry but that is in no way unique to Oakland or even to cases where the victims are WOC.

  53. This is a fast turnaround, not a slow turnaround as you allege.

    No, sorry, no dice. It doesn’t matter if a month to test a rape kit falls below the mean time for a rape kit to be tested in the jurisdiction, thats a slow turn around time. A month to do a test that takes less than a month to physically perform is slow and, to me, a sign that rape is a low priority for the force in question.

    Rape kits have sat unprocessed until the statute of limitations have expired.

    And everyone with a hand in the chain of custody of those kits are guilty of dereliction of duty at the very best and obstruction of justice at the worst. I don’t care if their jobs are hard or if they’re over worked. Testing those kits is their responsibility. The fact that in this case the police managed to simply be appalling slow as opposed to outright criminal isn’t a defense, its an indictment.

    Other valid rape reports may have been bungled because of bigotry but that is in no way unique to Oakland or even to cases where the victims are WOC.

    I didn’t argue that it was. I argued that Oakland is symptomatic of a systemic failure of police around the country to do their jobs. I argued that there was also a progressive failure. I argued that police see rape as a low priority, that they see people of color as a low priority, and that when these things intersect they tend to compound.

  54. Um, William, don’t lecture me on what I want to hear or what in fact I do hear. The cops are not equal to what Mixon did, and if you want to lecture me, get your fucking facts straight.

    he point is not that Mixon is a victim and society is to blame, anyone with a pulse could see that that argument is bullshit. The point is that the police, and the culture/society which created both them and Mixon, were complicit. Their inaction and their selective attention were as bad as Mixon’s actions and, as you argued, allowed Mixon to continue with his actions until someone they cared about was harmed. Rape a 12 year old (presumably black) girl? The police don’t care. Kill a cop who was likely engaging in racial profiling? Respond with any available force regardless of collateral damage. Thats what people here were objecting to, that police mentality that only cared about Mixon as a black man to harass and then as a target to destroy because he challenged their power. The mentality that viewed raping a 12 year old to force her into prostitution as less worthy of attention than a possibly expired tag on a license plate.

    1. So, you can read the cops’ minds? Yeah, dude, just like you can read mine. Guys who think that they can read other peoples’ minds is way too fucking reminiscent of the, “She said no but I know she meant yes.”

    2. So the cops asked for it, based on your intimate knowledge of their lives and hearts? Yeah, because cops in general wouldn’t react badly to two cops being killed? Much less four?

    3. Lovelle Mixon was a violent guy. He was suspected in one murder, but never charged, and had been in prison for assault with a deadly weapon. That’s not racial profiling: that’s criminal profiling. He was a scumbag, even without the rapes.

    4. Lovelle Mixon had choices. Killing those cops was not a good choice and he had to know it. It’s not like he was unaccustomed to the justice system. So what culture did he and the cops share? Are you implying that neither cops or Mixon had free will? Or is that a jab at POC?

    5. There is not one mention of the victim in this piece. Right here, on this site. None. There’s vague references to his being a rapist, to rape, and so forth. Not one to the victim herself. It seems to be taken as a given that there was police brutality, though.

    As a final note, unconnected to William, why in hell is feminism supposed to branch out into mens’ issues? Are men unable to do this themselves, with all their power and privilege? Why are feminists required to be everything to everybody? You don’t see the ADL reaching out to the KKK because they’re downtrodden. Why are womens’ issues not good enough? As a matter of practicality, sexism is so obviously the model for other forms of hatred that if we magically eliminated sexism tomorrow, the other forms would suddenly collapse without their foundation. It’s feminism because it’s designed to the wrongs inflicted on women. Branching out doesn’t give it a broader base; it’s like all those people who try desperately to talk about ‘the culture of violence’ when they should be talking about ‘the culture of violence by men against women‘, which is not a subset of the larger category but an entirely different category on its own. Branching out leads to making the rapist a figure of analysis while obscuring the victims, to assuming he had a reason for shooting cops. Men already have enough people talking about them. Rape victims don’t. There was a march for this asshole. There have been none for the victims.

  55. So, you can read the cops’ minds? Yeah, dude, just like you can read mine. Guys who think that they can read other peoples’ minds is way too fucking reminiscent of the, “She said no but I know she meant yes.”

    Can I read minds? No. Can I make educated guesses based upon experience and data? Yes. Do I have a bit more insight into motivations than the average person? Well, I suppose that depends mostly on how much stock you up into training. As for the accusation, I think your equating verbal disagreement and a discussion of theory to rape is offensive both as a rape survivor and as human being.

    So the cops asked for it, based on your intimate knowledge of their lives and hearts? Yeah, because cops in general wouldn’t react badly to two cops being killed? Much less four?

    Asked for it? No, but since that isn’t what I said I fail to see the relevance of your charge. My problem is that we have a 12 year old rape victim who was part of a string of five rapes, a good sketch, and a piece of human garbage that skipped parole, and the only reason he came to the attention of the police was because he might have had an expired tag. The police didn’t mobilize force when there was a serial racist, but they were willing to shoot up an occupied apartment building to get a cop killer. That tells me something of their priorities.

    Lovelle Mixon was a violent guy. He was suspected in one murder, but never charged, and had been in prison for assault with a deadly weapon. That’s not racial profiling: that’s criminal profiling. He was a scumbag, even without the rapes.

    Yes, but it is important to note that the police had no way of knowing this until after they had pulled him over for an expired tag. Say they ran his plates (although I’d ask why they did in the first place) and found out that he had a conviction. Ought the police be allowed to pull over anyone who has ever been convicted of a crime just to check up on them? Either way, its a moot point.

    Lovelle Mixon had choices. Killing those cops was not a good choice and he had to know it. It’s not like he was unaccustomed to the justice system. So what culture did he and the cops share? Are you implying that neither cops or Mixon had free will? Or is that a jab at POC?

    Again, your insinuations don’t really resemble what I’ve said. Of course Mixon knew what he was doing was wrong, but it was the option he took. What we have is a violent person who came into contact with other violent people. Mixon was a rapist, the cops didn’t bother to clear an apartment building before starting a gunfight. Whats the common thread? Both groups basically ignored the needs of the community to satisfy their own urges: mixon for rape and the police for revenge. Its not a jab at POC, and its not a commentary on free will, just an observation that some assholes wear uniforms and others do not.

    There is not one mention of the victim in this piece. Right here, on this site. None. There’s vague references to his being a rapist, to rape, and so forth. Not one to the victim herself. It seems to be taken as a given that there was police brutality, though.

    No, there isn’t a mention of the victim and thats not a mistake. The police didn’t go after Mixon as a rapist. If these cops had been killed bringing him in on an arrest warrant for rape then we’ be having a different discussion, but thats not the case. In fact, an arrest warrant for rape was never issued for Mixon even though he’d been linked to the rape of a 12 year old girl by DNA (and the rapes of four other women by M.O.) before he was pulled over. No, this wasn’t about Mixon being a rapist, or even a criminal. Mixon killed the police because he was a violent man, the police pulled him over for…well, thats not clear. But we know it wasn’t for being a rapist, for having skipped parole, or for having committed a traffic violation. The best they came up with is a “possibly expired registration” which seems unusual given that police tend to report every single thing that makes him look good. The “possibly” implies that the stop was a pretense stop, at best.

    Why is all this important for feminism? I’d say that poor investigation of serial rapes and violence escalation in an occupied building, both of which are important parts of the Mixon case, are pretty damned important.

  56. Can I read minds? No. Can I make educated guesses based upon experience and data? Yes. Do I have a bit more insight into motivations than the average person? Well, I suppose that depends mostly on how much stock you up into training. As for the accusation, I think your equating verbal disagreement and a discussion of theory to rape is offensive both as a rape survivor and as human being.

    Dude, basically your whole argument amounts to: I’m right, nyah, nyah, nyah, and furthermore, I’M FUCKING AWESOME.

    You’ve already jerked off over this issue far too much as it is, OH GREAT MAN. Let me bow to your expertise and shit.

    Training? I don’t know shit about you except you’re some arrogant jerk off online. Nor do I care. You’ve demonstrated nothing successfully except what that you think that cops are evil, and that in a rape case, the most important thing is the rapist’s welfare.

  57. So, William, suck my tampon. Where are you? Are you gonna show up and admit you were wrong? Could it possibly be?

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