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Seriously, “fattitude?”

Ampersand linked to Carol Lay’s new graphic memoir. He’s dismayed by the story, and I think I agree. It’s a book about how, via a really severe calorie restriction regime and a regular exercise program (but mostly the former), she has managed to stay at her “goal weight” of 125 pounds for the past half-dozen years. She’s 5’9″ inches tall, and 125 pounds puts her at the low end of the BMI’s healthy weight range.

The sample chapter on the comic’s webpage details a day on her diet–a day when, admittedly, she seems to be trying to lose a little bit of weight that might have, um, climbed back on. This is what she records eating before a pre-lunch workout:

One cup of coffee with a splash of skim and a smidgen of honey at thirty calories, p. 3

One half of a banana, at fifty calories, p. 3

Open-faced egg salad sandwich, for one-hundred and eighty calories, p. 4

One cup of tea with milk and sugar, for thirty calories, p. 4

One half of an apple with a tablespoon of peanut-butter, for one-hundred sixty calories, p. 5

One cup of tea or coffee with milk and sweetener, for thirty calories, p. 5

That’s four-hundred and eighty calories altogether. That’s not very much food:

1/2 banana
1/2 apple
1 piece of bread
schmear of egg salad
1 smallish spoonful of peanut butter
3 (coffee-)cups coffee or tea w/sugar and skim milk

…followed by a strenuous workout.

Commenters over at Alas–along with lots of other commenters on related posts about similar regimes–have talked about the standards implicit in this goal-oriented healthy lifestyle. The thing that impressed me most was the undertone of hunger and the way hunger is treated in the sample chapter.

Her diet has brought her weight down to the lowest end of the healthy range on an extremely conservative scale. (And she’s tall, which means that her slot is quite possibly branded with an even more parsimonious number.)

She’s still very hungry, is the thing. She craves more food than she consumes, and seems to crave more pretty frequently. She has to carefully count calories to keep herself from eating more than she determines appropriate. She weighs herself daily to remind herself of her goal in the face of temptation. She talks about exercise as something that keeps her mind off of food, and refers to one snack as something that “gets [her] through” an hour or so of work. She apparently doesn’t keep sweets in the house because she can’t trust herself not to eat them. She keeps a careful record of the caloric value of her meals so that she can focus on that rather than what her appetite demands.

She’s hungry. She’s an active, healthy woman. She doesn’t seem to be under a lot of stress, or dealing with some terrible crisis. She’s getting adequate rest. She’s been eating an extremely healthy diet for years, so her body doesn’t crave unhealthy food per se. She has no real reason to feel something else as hunger. So if she’s hungry, she’s hungry.

Why is her body’s consistent assertion that she should eat more treated as something to fight against? She is nearly underweight; she could gain ten pounds and still be well within the healthy range for her body as determined by the BMI scale. (If we stick with calorie-counting for the sake of argument, that would work out to about an extra piece of toast and marg, or less than fifteen hundred calories total daily, for a year. She could also cram half an energy bar before heading to the gym.)

Why the hell not? Why is this not an extreme diet? And why is hunger not an indication that it’s too extreme? It’s really kind of baffling.


74 thoughts on Seriously, “fattitude?”

  1. She’s an active, healthy woman.

    I’ll give you active. I will not concede “healthy.” Frankly, I can’t imagine being hungry all the time as ever being healthy.

    Also,

    she could gain ten pounds and still be well within the healthy range for her body as determined by the BMI scale

    Or 40.

  2. I meant “healthy” as in “not suffering from any medical issues that might affect her weight, energy level, metabolic processes, etc.” She doesn’t have thyroid problems, for example. Or a tapeworm. The post was about how she doesn’t seem to be at a healthy weight, and why one pretty straightforward standard for determining healthy weight was out of consideration.

  3. I’ve felt this a lot of times, but this brings it into sharp relief:

    What we call “healthy” is in no way, shape, or form, healthy. It is not healthy for us to ignore the signals are body gives us all the time. It’s not healthy to be obsessing about food like an addict. It’s not healthy to have people put this much time, energy, and effort when they could be doing ANYTHING else, including staring at a white-wall daydreaming, and have it be better for their overall health.

    This is insane.

  4. I’ve never really understood the fascination with weight; actual weight, as in how much you weigh in terms of beauty and fashion. For one thing, tall girls, (and you MUST be tall to be a model) are completely boned because weight increases exponentially in terms of volume.

    That, and is a woman has attractive curves in a photo, whether she is plump, or thin, does it really matter what her number is? It’s so abstract, yet people obsess over it constantly.

    If anything, women should be more concerned about their waist-to-hip ratio. It’s still vanity, but at least it makes logical sense. Evolution dictates that men are attracted to women with a low waist-to-hip ratio (Small waist, big hips) because it signals that they are healthy and not currently pregnant. (This is also why some men are turned off from apple-shaped women: because in their animal brain they appear pregnant. Even though our society has changed greatly, we’re still hard-wired for species survival)

    Our current obsession with weight just baffles me. If I still have the shape I do now, I could weigh 250 pounds and be happy with it. (And hope my future husband never has to carry me)

  5. This is what is so obscene about the coverage of the “Jessica Simpson is fat” story, in that she had to work out two hours a day, six days a week, to maintain a performance-ready body when she starred in Dukes of Hazzard (and her character in the movie is known primarily for, of all things, how hott she is in short shorts). Now that she doesn’t have to or want to maintain that kind of workout schedule, she’s a moral failure and worthy of well-publicized and widespread derision.

    An example for the rest of us.

  6. Have you noticed that “celebrity” women on magazine covers are treated in one of two ways?

    If she’s painfully emaciated, with ribs and hipbones and shoulder blades showing, the question is “Ooooh, is Janie Filmstar anorexic?”

    But — if she’s not painfully emaciated, if there’s actually a layer of normal human flesh covering those ribs and hipbones and shoulder blades, the caption is, “Wow, look how Janie Filmstar is porking out!”

    And, of course, the photographer gets a bonus for a photograph of Janie Filmstar with food in her hand. Because there’s no more horrifying, disgusting, unspeakably obscene thing a woman can do than eat in public. I suppose it has to be done, but do you have to do it right out here where everyone can see you? Go and do it in private somewhere, for God’s sake. And wash your hands afterward.

  7. Wow, Annala, there is so much wrong and offensive about that comment that I don’t even know where to begin. I had a very hourglass shape when I was “average” weight. Now that I’m very fat, I don’t. Does that make me defective? Do you see where I’m going with just that tiny piece of your comment. From a fat acceptance AND a feminist AND a disability (and probably more) standpoint, there are many more things that just don’t sit right with that comment.

  8. Oh great, (#4) more Extra-Scientiffic ev-psych. Just what we need.

    From the sample chapter of Lay’s book:

    Exercise not only takes my mind off food…but it helps burn calories, strengthen my bones, shape my body, and rev up my metabolism.”

    No darling, you’re courting osteoporosis for as long as you’re continuing your obsessive lifestyle. (I didn’t see any milk, cheese or yoghurt in the previous pages, and if I had, it would have been in uselessly tiny amounts. Instead of that half glass of lemonade(!) on page 7, for god’s sake have a whole glass of milk.

    Just an aside – a spoonful of peanut butter without anything on it looks to me like weird obsessive eating, but YMMV.

  9. Sorry, I did not close my blockquote tags properly. Only the first sentence, in quotation marks, belongs to the author. The rest is my comment.

  10. Forcing yourself to go onto an unhealthy diet definitely seems like a bad choice, but what’s wrong with that breafast example? I’m a 175-lb guy and I doubt I eat half that much food for breakfast; and I usually jog before lunch as well.

  11. Women don’t need to be concerned with their “hip to waist ratio,” or their BMI, or what they look like at all for that matter. Women, and men need to be concerned about eating healthy (not junk food, fruits and vegetables, etc.) and moderately exercising (not necessarily being an athlete). After that, health and looks don’t correlate at all. And BMI is a notoriously bad measure. There is so much politics involved with weight loss and health. If we accept the fact that normal (not under weight) is healthy, than a whole lot of businesses would be going under. The media pays no attention to the diseases that underweight people are at risk for. News flash: heart disease and diabetes aren’t the only diseases. Turns out the yo-yoing from dieting is much worse for your health that being overweight is. And I don’t think any runway model should be an ideal model for health. Basically, we just need to separate looks from health, and stop stigmatizing people as unhealthy that don’t look like our unhealthy ideal. If you want to be skinny, great, but don’t call it healthy.

  12. Annela, that was a great example of reifying a social construction as natural or biological. The same used to be thought about fat women. Fashion and evolution shouldn’t be confused.

  13. work out two hours a day, six days a week

    This, and the above diet, is mainly why I remain fat, and will probably never be healthy. It’s simply not attainable for someone who can’t afford to make “working out and dieting” their full time job. Sure, I might be able to work in a little exercise and eat a little healthier, but what would I have to show for it? I’d still be fat, and slightly more tired and miserable. Unless I literally starve myself, spend a huge amount of time at the gym everyday, and give up the remaining hours in my day to obsessively counting calories and preparing special food, I’ll never be thin.

  14. I have wondered, since I saw this come out, about the fact that she lives in California…LA, I think, or a suburb of it…and works in a creative industry. If the average woman in Nowhere, Kansas feels pressure to be thin, I would think it was considerably worse in L.A., where normal is definitely not acceptable.

    As a cartoonist, Lay is really very good–“Story Minute” is one of the best recurring strips out there. Yet oddly, collections of those cartoons are out of print, but her new big book is this one…a “thinspiration” (ugh) memoir. This is what her agent got to sell, in other words. I kind of think that tells you a lot about what it’s like for women, in general, in regards to opportunity. And sadly, it probably will be very successful.

  15. LilahCello: My intention was not to offend, or to say that you are in any way unacceptable. I am not saying that heavy women are not attractive, or are in some way defective. I am saying that evolution has hard-wired our animal brains to think in a certain way. There is a reason why both men and women pursue the hourglass shape. It’s not healthy, it’s not right, and it’s rare that a woman actually has it, but there’s a reason why.

    The point of my post is that it is not, and never has been weight that has dictated beauty. It is shape. If you have mathematical beauty (such as a waist to hip ratio of 0.7) it really doesn’t matter how much you physically weigh. It’s just the science of attraction.

  16. I have to say that I agree with MikeF, above, about how this is probably not the best part of the day to focus on if you are going to point out how someone is under-eating. I know it is healthiest to eat a good breakfast, but I know a lot of people who cannot stomach much (or any) food before lunch. Personally, if I eat anything less than three hours before a workout, I feel sick.

    However I do think that this is a very unhealthy diet that she is on, and for God’s sake, why did she make it the focus of an entire graphic novel? I have some of her comic stories, and they are funny, insightful, and thought-provoking (See Twisted Sisters and Twisted Sisters 2-a couple of fantastic anthologies of comic stories, for examples). This seems like a huge step backwards for her, in terms of content. *sigh*

  17. I am saying that evolution has hard-wired our animal brains to think in a certain way.
    Yes, but no matter how many times you say it you are abusing the science of biology badly, in addition to women and men of all shapes and sizes. There is absolutely no scientific evidence to support what you’re saying. If in our Hollywood infused world, You only have to look at people of non-European ancestry to see that the hourglass shape is one of many idealized shapes in different cultures.

  18. BTW, folks, if you read the sample chapter, you’ll see she lives in Hollywood, which is not a great place to live if you have anything but a very “perfect” body. This is true for men and women, but of course, it’s worse for women and gay men.

  19. “There is absolutely no scientific evidence to support what you’re saying.”

    There’s tons of it. And yes, it exist even across cultures.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waist-hip_ratio

    “Such diverse beauty icons as Audrey Hepburn, Marilyn Monroe, Sophia Loren and even the Venus de Milo all have or had ratios close to 0.7, even though they all have different weights and heights. In other cultures, preferences appear to vary according to some studies,[11] ranging from 0.6 in China,[12] to 0.8 or 0.9 in parts of South America and Africa,[13][14][15] and divergent preferences based on ethnicity, rather than nationality, have also been noted.”

    The waist to hip ratio may change by ethnicity or culture, but it’s still always going to be a factor in female attractiveness. Remember, this is a ratio, not a measurement. It only dictates the size of your waist and hip in comparison to each other, not trying to achieve specific size or weight.

  20. I am saying that evolution has hard-wired our animal brains to think in a certain way.

    The fact that different cultures prefer wider hips does not mean that the preference is “hard-wired”. At the moment the concept of “hard-wiring” is hugely faddish, and it’s a notorious habit of the popular media to present as “science” any body’s interpretation of very questionable data. Surprise, surprise, those interpretations usually tend to favour antifeminist interpretations of society. Quelle shock. If you dig deeper behind those Wikipedia references, you’ll see a lot of confusion between causation and correlation and other shonky interpretational practices.

  21. mothworm, if it’s any consolation, that amount of exercise is probably the only way she could lose weight on that diet. With that little caloric intake, her body would be in preserve-weight mode. It would be holding on to as much weight as it could, and it takes a huge amount of exercise to over-ride that. Her body is/was working against her in her goal of weight loss.

  22. A few thoughts moving in opposite directions:

    1) I agree with emjaybee that this is a disappointing path for Lay to take. in fact, it’s a disappointing direction for graphic novels to take. It depresses me that the same genre that brought us Maus and Blankets and Jimmy Corrigan and Persepolis is now basically coughing up Us Weekly-friendly weight narratives. Surely Lay’s got more interesting things to say.

    2) However, it seems to me that there’s not much grounds for attacking what she eats, for being hungry, for being obsessive about eating, for not eating enough. With all the corn syrup, partially hydrogenated god knows what, refined sugar, frozen, canned, plastic-wrapped, shipped three thousand miles out of season stuff we put in our mouths, it’s not as if any of us know what normal looks like, when it comes to food. If we say it’s for sheer sustenance, then we all eat too much. If we say it’s also for comfort, pleasure, human bonding, ceremony, then we acknowledge that we all eat in ways that don’t aren’t really about nutrition.

    3) Pointing out that the book puts a stamp of approval on bad body norms seems reasonable. However, if we want to pass judgment on whether or not she should allow herself to be hungry, or eat small amounts to stay focused on work, or exercise to distract herself from food, then we’d have to have an idea of what an acceptable relationship to food is. And we just don’t have that.

  23. How is it questionable science to go up to men and ask them which body they are most attracted to? We’re not talking about finding a soulmate here who is intelligent, loving and supportive. We’re talking pure physical attraction. Is it wrong for a man to say “I am attracted to this body type.”? There are far better reasons for picking a mate than physical looks, but you cannot shame someone for saying what they are attracted to.

    And, through many studies, that physical attractiveness factor has been pretty stably reported at a roughly 0.7-0.9 ratio. Even across various cultures and through changing times.

    Should a woman try to achieve this? That is for each and every woman to decide on her own, whether it is even possible or not. This attractiveness factor still exists.

  24. Seems to me that a waist is functionally useless for human beings. If you are straight-sided or barrel-shaped there is more room for lungs, digestive tubing, and babies. The waist works mainly to provide something to keep your pants up, and I see a lot of waistless people who seem to keep their pants up anyway.
    I am suspicious of much ev. psych.–hard-wired, semi-hard-wired or what have you.
    Garfield said it best. Diet = Die with a T.

  25. I remember my year of extreme dieting. I counted every calorie that went in my mouth. I counted how much exercise “counted” and how much more I needed to do. I weighed myself frequently. Even after my mother gave me Health magazine and showed me how my weight was just perfect for my height and body type.

    Why? Control. I needed to be in control. Granted I was going through the pimply, awkward period of high school and to top it off–the boy I was so in (high school) love with had broken up with me. I felt the need to be in control of some aspect of my life.

    And I was positively reinforced for my extreme dieting all the time. “Jesse, I wish I was as skinny as you….” “Jesse, you’re so pretty…” “Jesse, I wish I had the self control that you had…” “Jesse…I wish I could wear a size five too…”

    My guess is Carol Lay is a woman who feels like she’s out of control. And her dieting and positive reinforcement from dieting/working out/self starvation feeds into more of the same behavior.

  26. Unless I literally starve myself, spend a huge amount of time at the gym everyday, and give up the remaining hours in my day to obsessively counting calories and preparing special food, I’ll never be thin.

    I completely understand this. I used to be thin, and then I went and had kids. Now, even with getting up early and working out for 45 minutes to an hour 6 days a week (which I do), I’ll never be thin again. Because I refuse to starve myself and it’s just not in my genetics to be anything less than a bit chubby otherwise.

  27. Annala, what is questionable is to call a preference evolutionarily “hard-wired”. You’ve just shifted the goalpost of your argument – fine, people may report it as a preference, but that can and does reflect social conditioning.

  28. “Why is her body’s consistent assertion that she should eat more treated as something to fight against?”

    That reminds me of a recent Weight Watchers commercial, where hunger is depicted as something a little orange monster determined to ruin your perfect figure with omg!pizza. It’s like they’re trying to imply that hunger, rather than being a natural, internal response to lack of food, is some kind of external thing that just happens to women in order to make them miserable and fat.

  29. I agree with Mike F. If 480 calories is not enough for breakfast, then I have to ask, how many calories do people usually eat for breakfast?

    Also, Ellen, please don’t assume that skinny = unhealthy. It’s just as damaging as assuming that fat = unhealthy. Not all skinny people starve and exercise their way into oblivion, just as not all fat people eat donuts and watch Dr. Phil all day. Some people are naturally skinny, just like some people are naturally fat. Saying “If you want to be skinny, great, but don’t call it healthy” is mean and judgmental, and untrue for a lot of cases.

  30. “If 480 calories is not enough for breakfast, then I have to ask, how many calories do people usually eat for breakfast?”

    Calories alone are not a good estimation of a food’s worth. You’ll notice that She has three hot drinks (coffee or tea) a day, and has cream and sugar in all of them. This is extra calories with very little nutritional content. So yes, it may rack up, but your body is not getting the essential nutrients it needs throughout the day, and you feel hungry all the time.

    You’d be surprised how little food the body really needs when proper nutrition is being met. (I am in no way condoning starving yourself, I am thinking more of survivalists getting by on emergency rations while stranded) Avocados, for example are a high-calorie food, but they provide healthy fats and vitamins and are very filling.

    there’s potential for a lot of slip-ups in that little diet sample alone. If the egg salad was heavy on mayonnaise, that’s more extra calories with very few vitamins. If the bread was white bread and not whole grain, she could be missing more nutrients.

    Hunger is the body’s way of telling you “Hello, I need something! Give it to me!” and sugary coffee isn’t the answer.

  31. The amount of food for breakfast seems totally normal to me – I hate breakfast. The calorie-counting does not – it reads exactly like the posts on dozens of “pro-ana” or pro-anorexia forums and communities I’ve seen on the internet.

  32. mouthworm-actually, you get a lot from a health standpoint from working out some and eating fruits and vegetables, even if you don’t lose any weight at all. thin is not the only definition of healthy. and yeah-I don’t usually eat much more than 480 calories for breakfast-I’m more likely to be hungry for a big lunch. does that mean I under eat? not if you consider the whole day. and really-eating a lot before you work out makes more than a few people nauseous. so maybe we can be less judgemental of the meal? which is the point over on alas

  33. KB,

    Agreed, you can get healthier, but not necessarily thinner. I was just saying that for most people (myself anyway), putting in a ridiculous amount of effort for a slight health benefit but little or no aesthetic benefit isn’t going to be worth it. I’m fat. Even if I exercised like crazy and restricted my diet, I might, if I were lucky, lose about fifteen pounds. And I’d still be fat, so why put myself through that misery.

    I seriously doubt anyone would go to the gym for health benefits alone. We see a few people get thin and think we have a chance, too. It’s like playing the lottery, and with the same odds of “winning”.

  34. “The amount of food for breakfast seems totally normal to me – I hate breakfast. The calorie-counting does not – it reads exactly like the posts on dozens of “pro-ana” or pro-anorexia forums and communities I’ve seen on the internet.”

    Yeah–it’s not so much “Here’s what I eat” narratives that set off warning bells for me so much as “Here’s an itemized list of what I eat, followed by weights and caloric counts for all of it.” If you’re medically normal/healthy, and this is your relationship to food, it may be time to rethink how productive a relationship it is.

  35. Everyone might want to go read the sample chapter for more context. The “breakfast” isn’t what Lay grabbed before her morning commute. According to the graphic novel, she gets up and eats a piece of fruit and a cup of coffee, then works for an hour or so, then eats a diet-size sandwich and a cup of tea, then works for another while, then eats a piece of fruit and some peanut butter for a snack, then heads to the gym. She has “lunch” after her workout. So it’s not breakfast so much as intake til noon or so, and it’s more than a third of the calories she consumes all day: 480/1350.

    Annala:

    How is it questionable science to go up to men and ask them which body they are most attracted to?

    How is it questionable science to go up to men and ask them how many of them want to fuck other men? Would this methodology provide an accurate picture of homosexual desire in our society, let alone male homosexuality across human history?

    I’m noticing three things about your argument. One, your source contradicts the assertion that the waist-hip ratio is a cross-cultural truism, both by referring to beauty icons “as diverse as” three Hollywood stars across three decades plus one venus statue from a Western antecedent culture, and by acknowledging a range from 0.6 to 0.9. Second, you’re arguing that there’s some natural universal imperative to prefer this WTR while ignoring that women are currently ordered to castigate their bodies for having this basic adult female shape. And that there are many other communities past and present who enforce other beauty standards. Third, it really doesn’t seem to have much to do with Lay’s book, which is the subject of the post.

  36. Evolutionarily, we’re attracted to health. There are obvious indicators, like not being covered with sores. There are subtle indicators, like symmetry. But that doesn’t mean that society/culture doesn’t play an equal or greater role in defining what we find attractive. Then you have to ask whether or not it matters which factor is evolutionary and which is cultural. More often then not it seems like it’s so you can say “I can’t help being a douchebag, it’s evolution!” I don’t like seeing biology used that way.

  37. Annala: post a link to some kind of scientific study or such supporting this hip/ratio thing (it must be a genuine study that is able to be replicated and has been verified by other scientists) and perhaps people will take it seriously. And to my knowledge, no such study exists, it’s pop evo psych.

    In other actual facts, 1300 calories per day is incapable of providing the necessary nutrition an adult needs to be healthy. Any detractors can Google that.

    I know a girl who was desperate to lose weight but did not want to have to exercise to achieve this. She went on a regimented diet where they limited her to 1500 calories a day; when her metabolism slowed (which is what automatically happens when you severely restrict your caloric intake) they put her down to 1,000; next metabolic shift, down to 700. She couldn’t explain what she would do when her body, now in starvation mode, would need her to do next.

    Now she eats nothing but celery and chickpeas, and works out (though only cardio, and she has no energy to even have a social life) just to keep from putting any weight back on. Her hair is falling out and her skin is sallow. She has convinced herself that the protein in the chickpeas cause her to build muscle (which is untrue, only training your muscles will build more muscle). It’s a scary, dangerous game. She’s slowly killing herself. To be thin.

    And to some people that’s all that counts. In the real world, though, not so much. A “diet” of this nature is basically training in eating disorders. I’ll keep my extra 15 pounds, thanks.

  38. It’s the obsessive, neurotic lifestyle portrayed in the graphic novel that really gets me about calorie counting. Food is not a block of nutrients, exercise is not a titration of fat and sweat. Compulsive math is just a way of distracting yourself.

    I feel exhausted just reading the sample paragraph. The graphic novel itself is also rather dated in style and structure, never mind the content.

  39. When I was 125 pounds (at 5′ 9″) I was unhealthily skinny. I was only that weight because I was stressed and unhappy, and the amount of adrenalin surging through my body was supressing my appetite. Everyone noticed – my family, my friends, my work colleagues – and everyone was concerned.

    It’s shocking that this woman is doing this to herself (or rather, society is making her do it to herself) with a view to looking “good”.

  40. Very, very sad. She’s fifty-six years old and she feels compelled to exercise and diet down to a weight that would be on the thin side for a college student?

    And oh, for comparison’s sake, here is Carol Lay back in 1982 (she’s the one in the middle, between Cat Yronwood and Melinda Gebbie). And here she is in 2004 at a comics convention.

    Need I say more?

  41. Wow, Ellid. I don’t think I realized that she’s 56. I’m used to young women doing crazy things to look a certain way, but I think it’s heartbreaking that a successful woman in her 50s is making herself miserable* on a daily basis to fit some absurd ideal.

    (*Assuming that for Lay hungry=miserable. I may be projecting a bit there)

  42. Pop evo psych is not science. Most evolutionary psychology, sadly, is not very good science. Not even good enough for other scientists to take seriously. You can’t just interview a bunch of men about what body shapes they find attractive, even “across cultures and history” and then claim that you’ve discovered a biological hard-wiring. It doesn’t prove a thing about whether you’re looking at something cultural or something biological, and it’s a major flaw of most pop evo psych. We’ve been over this territory plenty of times before, and it’s hardly shocking to find studies that just happen to confirm cultural “conventional wisdom” of what’s attractive and provide some kind of naturalized, unalterable justification for people’s prejudices, or body phobias, or whatever else you want to drag out of our collective psyche.

    Plus: why so heteronormative?

    p.s. Carol Lay used to write really quirky, funny cartoons. At some point she stopped writing those and started writing quirky, totally unfunny cartoons with strange slightly moralizing edges. I remember having a conversation with another fan and wondering what had happened to her. I really hope that it’s not somehow related to her weight obsession… ugh.

  43. Her sample chapter was boring. Just like hearing about anyone’s diet is boring.

    In my experience, roommates and coworkers on restrictive diets cannot stop talking about their diets. I’m assuming it’s because they are hungry. With every page of the sample chapter that I read, I just felt sadder and sadder for this woman, thinking about how hungry she must be. Some hungry people compulsively cook for others to distract themselves from how much they want to eat, some yammer on and on to coworkers, lovers, and children about exactly how much they consumed today, but this woman has done it in a book. Which, as I said, is very boring reading for the rest of us.

  44. Hi Mothworm!

    I’d still be fat, and slightly more tired and miserable.

    I think you’ll find that with regular exercise – you’ll actually have more energy and feel happier. The weight thing doesn’t matter, but if you’re ever in a funk, exercise of any kind can really help. I understand that many therapists actually suggest it to people going through depression – it’s been suggested to me, and I reaped the benefits.

    Most of us don’t have time for two hours at the gym – I sure don’t – but even 20 minutes of doing some yoga at home can potentially brighten up a bad day.

    On the other hand, the sort of obsessive exercise being documented here is probably really bad for one’s psychological state overall. People like that may get the initial high, but probably crash horribly when they eat a sandwich, because ZOMG SANDWICH !!1! How many calories is that???!!!

    *sigh*

  45. mouthworm-actually, if you want to read about people who go to the gym for health, not to lose weight, I can recommend some blogs-Kate harding’s shapely prose is a good one. I’m not disagreeing with you about the weight loss abilities of the gym, so much as the discounting what working out does for you while staying the same weight. People do go to the gym for that alone.

  46. In Annela’s defense, there is some good science cited on that Wikipedia page. Unfortunately, it was often taken out of context. And she used it as an example of fact instead of something that is currently being investigated. And because this is social science and a random clinical trial can’t be done, the answer won’t be definitive until 500 years from now when we see how we have evolved. And because of global warming, that probably won’t be possible. However, The nature vs. nurture debate is far from over. And it is usually an interaction between the two, not either or. It used to be “good science” that said the egg sat passively waiting for the strongest most deserving sperm to get through. It used to be “good science” that said women were fulfilling their “natural” destinies by staying in the home. Again science is being used against us. Think about what women would be able to accomplish if they weren’t obsessed with what they look like.

    And Andrea, I never assume skinny=unhealthy. Health is what is normal for you when you get moderate exercise and eat healthy (not counting calories, eating until satiated, but eating fresh food, not eating junk food, HFCS, etc). My point is that looks and health are not correlated. That being said, there are very few women that are naturally very skinny. Unfortunately, those few get backlash and treated like they have an eating disorder.

    A ten minute walk every day, and eating well, may not change the way you look, but it will change the way you feel, and it will potentially enhance your quality of life. Again, it shouldn’t be about what you look like.

    We also need to look at why we worry about what is too much, and value limiting ourselves. Those ideas are steeped in puritan values.

  47. Incidentally, guys–other comments I’m seeing also say that this 1350 thing is not a maintenance diet, but her way of dropping a couple of pounds when her weight gets “out of control.” So presumably her maintenance diet is as many as a few hundred more calories, I guess.

    And oh, for comparison’s sake, here is Carol Lay back in 1982 (she’s the one in the middle, between Cat Yronwood and Melinda Gebbie). And here she is in 2004 at a comics convention.

    Need I say more?

    Wow.

    Another woman’s life and body and all that, but…she just doesn’t weigh anything in the second photograph. She looks malnourished.

    It’s odd: all the pictures in the sample chapter imply that she’s somewhat larger and more rounded. She looks thin, but not bony. I know that her drawing style will tend to smooth contours in faces, but it’s still striking.

    p.s. Carol Lay used to write really quirky, funny cartoons. At some point she stopped writing those and started writing quirky, totally unfunny cartoons with strange slightly moralizing edges. I remember having a conversation with another fan and wondering what had happened to her. I really hope that it’s not somehow related to her weight obsession… ugh.

    Well, maybe she’s just a shitty writer now; it happens. I remember loving her stuff when I was a teenager.

  48. On the other hand, the sort of obsessive exercise being documented here is probably really bad for one’s psychological state overall. People like that may get the initial high, but probably crash horribly when they eat a sandwich, because ZOMG SANDWICH !!1! How many calories is that???!!!

    Plus, your body really will develop an odd series of reactions to food. You can train it to be unfamiliar with normal-size meals. Fasting can make you euphoric, sometimes; eating after long periods of fasting can make you feel bloated and icky. Fat, in other words.

  49. “On the other hand, the sort of obsessive exercise being documented here is probably really bad for one’s psychological state overall.”

    !?! Trying to work out two or three times a week, and walking 20 mins a day when you can’t is not obsessive exercise. That’s really the very minimum someone should be doing.

    I also don’t think it’s a really severe calorie restriction regime. Her maintenance and RDA level is probably about 2k. Dropping 600 a day to lose a pound a week while you’re in the normal range is fine. Losing weight while underweight, or losing it fast would be something to worry about – but that’s not what’s happening. You’re worrying about nothing. The contents of the diet could stand improving – too much sugar and she should eat meals rather than snacks – but the number of cals is fine.

  50. And, through many studies, that physical attractiveness factor has been pretty stably reported at a roughly 0.7-0.9 ratio.

    That may be true, but 0.9 is not at all an hourglass figure. 0.7-0.9 is a pretty wide range and I wouldn’t be surprised to hear the majority of women fall into that range. So you’re really not saying much at all with that statement.

  51. I think much of this cartoon is being taken WAY out of context. This is a chapter about weight loss, not about her regular weight maintenance regime. 1200 to 1500 calories are required for healthy, sustainable weight loss, and her 1300-1400 calorie diet as shown here falls well within this range.

    Taking the fact of her hunger as a sign of unhealthiness is disingenuous and frankly ridiculous, because every time she says she’s hungry in the chapter, she *eats* immediately after. The author also makes a point of saying that at the end of the day she does NOT feel hungry or deprived. So what’s the problem here?

    To that end, saying she exercises “obsessively” is just untrue. 2 or 3 times a week is hardly over rigorous, and neither is 20 minutes of walking a day. That’s the MINIMUM for cardiovascular health! If people here think that’s too much, then I just hope you have a great health insurance plan.

    If we want to get into a meaningful discussion of this, let’s talk about WHY she wants to lose weight, not how. Because she’s doing great on the how.

  52. To corroborate what roses says, no matter my weight my waist to hip ratio is about .75. Except now, at almost 6 months pregnant (and yes, I’m showing quite a bit) it’s .88.

  53. Annala’s cultural examples of the waist to hip ratio aren’t a very diverse sampling in my opinion.

    Not to mention it leaves out cultural works like the Vanus of Willendorf who is remarkably apple shaped or the works of many a Renaissance artist that featured very heavy women with only a slight difference in their waist to hip ratio to the point where a good deal of them are almost a straight line. Women in hieroglyphs are also portrayed with only a slight difference in their hip to waist line.

    Just saying, one ancient work of art and three recent movie stars who are all from Western cultures aren’t going to prove your point.

  54. Just a suggestion: could we add “trigger warnings” on posts with tons of details about calorie counts, height/weight measurements, BMI, etc – basically the numerical details of food/weight obsession. There are a lot of women currently struggling with eating disorders as well as working through recovery, and many like to frequent feminist blogs. So much discussion of numbers (calories, weight, etc) can be really triggering and difficult. In the future, could you put the number stuff below the jump with a trigger warning or something?

  55. “Evolution dictates that men are attracted to women with a low waist-to-hip ratio (Small waist, big hips) because it signals that they are healthy and not currently pregnant.”

    And wow, some men aren’t attracted to women, some women aren’t attracted to men, and some people are attracted to both, and some people aren’t attracted to anyone! Isn’t evoluation grand?

    The heteronormative nature of this comment is all I’m going to touch on. Other people have already addressed in their comments the extremely problematic nature that certain body types =attractiveness and how it somehow indicates a woman’s fertility, blah blah and cavemen hunted while cavewomen sat in the caves and knitted all day and did nothing important and evolution dictates our modern day roles because cavemen hunted and cavewomen cooked. /sarcasm

  56. Back on topic, I’m a bit uncomfortable that this post focuses so much on the woman and less on the society that creates an environment where someone feels they must regulate their life like this and where publishers will publish a book like this. Isn’t this essentially victim blaming or shaming?

    Or are we to also call her out for being complicit in something (the book) that may further unhealthy attitudes in women towards their bodies?

    I’m on the verge of needing to head to bed so perhaps I’m not reading the post so clearly…

  57. I’m a bit uncomfortable that this post focuses so much on the woman and less on the society that creates an environment where someone feels they must regulate their life like this and where publishers will publish a book like this. Isn’t this essentially victim blaming or shaming?

    No disagreement from me, but it prompts me to think of another question: what motivates a woman to write a book like this (patriarchy, unattainable beauty standards, media bombardment, blah, blah fishcakes)? I mean, she’s writing about deprivation, frustration, and hunger as a moral good and a personal victory. There’s something about the entire tone which reminds that the reader is meant to understand she soldiers on in the face of great adversity: organic malt balls at Whole Foods!

    There’s nothing inherently bad about managing one’s food intake, but this sense that any weight gain is a failure, that adding a few ounces immediately requires reverting to deprivation, makes the entire text unsettling.

    I think this is what’s been bothering me about Melanie’s comment: there’s more to this than just occasional caloric restriction in the name of losing a few pounds. It sounds borderline disordered. The idea that she must triumph over a free sample at the grocery store doesn’t make any of this sound healthy.

    And the picture is certainly not helping the impression that what she’s doing is somehow totally unproblematic.

  58. I think this is what’s been bothering me about Melanie’s comment: there’s more to this than just occasional caloric restriction in the name of losing a few pounds. It sounds borderline disordered. The idea that she must triumph over a free sample at the grocery store doesn’t make any of this sound healthy.

    Exactly. These are the few pounds that stand between her and the lowest BMI in the healthy range. She’s allowed to go back to an only-slightly-higher maintenance intake when she’s sitting on the wire between nourished and mal. I don’t think that’s healthy, and I think that this kind of short-term severe restriction is a different thing when you’re already about as thin as you can be. A pound a week is fast at that level.

    Melanie, please don’t imply that the people here are unhealthy or inactive, or unfamiliar with calorie-restriction. A bunch of us are fairly athletic, and plenty of us have a lot of experience with nutrition and restriction dieting. And many of us have lived on similar regimens, and experienced them firsthand.

    We can agree to disagree about the continuous rather than recurring hunger; it seems to me that the snacks simply keep hunger at a manageable level. And, “gets me through.” Again, most of us aren’t speculating about the way this kind of eating feels.

    It doesn’t sound like she does exercise “obsessively”–on that amount, she simply couldn’t.

  59. Melanie, please don’t imply that the people here are unhealthy or inactive, or unfamiliar with calorie-restriction. A bunch of us are fairly athletic, and plenty of us have a lot of experience with nutrition and restriction dieting. And many of us have lived on similar regimens, and experienced them firsthand.

    …Actually, let me make this a little clearer. The reason that I hate these discussions–and the reason that many people hate to participate in them–is that the standard response to, “Man, does that ever sound unnecessarily punishing and restrictive!” is, “Well, you only say that because you’re a lazy fat slob. It is possible to cut calories and keep the weight off for good.” Follow the Alas link to the metafilter or Salon threads; you’ll see what I mean.

    That joke about the excellent health plan? Not funny. If anything stands a chance of turning me into actuarial kryptonite, it’s not an erstwhile tendency to eat too much. You talk fat with a group of women, you’ll be talking to a bunch of people positively afflicted with willpower.

    No one has said that it isn’t possible, even for years or decades. My point–and I am drawing on personal experience as well as my reading of Lay’s account as well as my apparent need to underscore my diligent slenderness and fitness for full disclosure purposes only, of course–is that it’s hugely difficult and unpleasant, and totally unnecessary from a health standpoint. Her standard for her body requires very restrictive dieting to maintain a number that is almost too low. Why? Why that goal? Why is her weight “out of control” if it gets a few pounds above that number? Why is the interpretation still “too fat” and never “too thin?”

  60. Another thing that her diet throws into high relief is how misleading caloric calculations can be, and of course how little sense it makes to state that human bodies can be altered by means of thermodynamics alone (if 500 calories = xlb, I just need to eat y calories less to lose z lb).

    I see a lot of people here stating they eat less than the example given. Personally, my breakfast of choice is 2 cups of good coffee, no sugar, some milk. On days when I am working, I will have couscous with some fresh veggies, a little cheese, maybe some meat for lunch. After work I’ll usually have a snack like some toast or a banana, and then for dinner I’ll generally make something with rice or pasta and a sauce, or some thick broth in cold weather. My dinners are larger than average, with more carbs and more vegetables. I generally have 2-3 days a week meat-free, with lots of extra veggies. When I am not working, I often forget to eat at all until 4-5pm. My body just doesn’t register hunger properly after years of diet-based abuse. And I am fat. Fat, fatty fat fat with jiggly bits and stretch marks and disaproving looks from doctors. I also lift weights and do pilates for my health.

    At the same time, I have a very slim friend (UK size 4) who has, I swear, hollow legs. She must do, because I don’t know where else she puts the breakfast of toast + fruit + coffee, the mid-morning snack of an energy bar + fruit or nuts + chocolate, the lunch of a sandwich + a salad + some soup + some crisps + a chocolate bar + some fruit, the mid-afternoon snack matching the morning snack, the after work snack, the dinner and the supper. If she doesn’t eat every 2 hours, my friend gets woozy and tired. She also exercises regularly, but not excessively, on her Wii.

    I would note that both of us get more fresh fruit/veg, more dairy and more actual NUTRITION in an average week than the woman cited in the article.

    Which one of us is healthy? Which of us is “overeating” and which “undereating”? We are both healthy, and we both weigh the right amount and eat the right amount for our bodies. But by the assumptions made when anyone diets, I should be slim/athletic and my friend would be fat, or at least “curvy”.

    What makes the diet mentionedint he above article unhealthy is not the amount of food, or the amount of exercise. It is the fact that the person engaging in it feels hungry constantly, and that her body is so desperate for nutrition that she doesn’t trust herself any more. The obsession is unhealthy – that is what we should be focussing on.

  61. To that end, saying she exercises “obsessively” is just untrue. 2 or 3 times a week is hardly over rigorous, and neither is 20 minutes of walking a day. That’s the MINIMUM for cardiovascular health! If people here think that’s too much, then I just hope you have a great health insurance plan.

    Melanie, I actually exercise much more than that. On the average, I’m at the gym 5 times a week, and exercise at home on the weekends too or else take long walks. But I do believe that what is being documented here is a kind of obsession. It’s the style of the thing that has me wondering.

  62. I think discussions like this are worthwhile because, independent of what the author of the graphic novel (never heard of her before) says, this IS the standard set up that everyone “should” attain. Full disclosure: I”m obese (by BMI standards; I don’t think any sane person could say I’m fat) and damn happy with my body. I’m healthier now by every single metric EXCEPT weight than when I was a size 4. But because I take up a few more inches of space than my thinner counterparts, I have had friends come up to me concerned about my “health,” tell me that I MUST engage in restrictive dieting at all times in order to be thin, and even that I should run, constantly, as in live my life on a treadmill, because otherwise I’m a disgusting cow.

    This is the new definition of “normal” and it’s deeply fucked up. We have so ingrained the idea that skinny=healthy and fat=unhealthy that we think it’s perfectly appropriate to base our entire lives on attaining thinness, which is literally almost physically impossible if you’re not naturally inclined to be that way. We see this chapter and are horrified, but this is how they (doctors, society, the government) want EVERYONE to live. All the time. Because “nothing tastes as good as thin feels.”

    Our entire damn society has an eating disorder, and it’s fucked up. And it makes women like me targets of constant discrimination and abuse. Yes, for the record, I have been denied adequate medical treatment because my ass doesn’t fit into a size 8 anymore but does fit into a size 12 (US sizes, mid-range clothing stores) quite comfortably. And people think this is NORMAL and JUSTIFIED!

    The issue isn’t this cartoonist, but everyone. If you honestly believe that anyone larger than a US size 6 (the threshold for my body to cross into an “overweight” BMI) must spend all their time sitting on the couch shoving fast food into their mouth, YOU are part of the problem. And from what I’ve seen between internet comments (including here), family, and friends, I’d say it’s about 70% of the people reading this blog.

  63. The issue isn’t this cartoonist, but everyone. If you honestly believe that anyone larger than a US size 6 (the threshold for my body to cross into an “overweight” BMI) must spend all their time sitting on the couch shoving fast food into their mouth, YOU are part of the problem.

    I agree, Ashley. Such attitudes also leave out those of us who are physically unable to devote much of our free time to exercise and/or “staying healthy” because of chronic health problems, illness, disability, or other things that are beyond individual control.

  64. “Back on topic, I’m a bit uncomfortable that this post focuses so much on the woman and less on the society that creates an environment where someone feels they must regulate their life like this and where publishers will publish a book like this. Isn’t this essentially victim blaming or shaming?”
    “Well, evolution says hourglass=pretty, so who are we to argue? Society says be thin, so who are we to argue?” This is almost a bit… deterministic? Everyone has a choice and some women choose to starve themselves and the rest of us fall everywhere in between.
    I hate people comparing themselves to this women or to other people when it comes to diet and exercies. There is no set guide that applies to everyone on what it is to eat healthily or exercise enough, that’s what the BMI scale is such crap.

  65. I think you’ll find that with regular exercise – you’ll actually have more energy and feel happier. The weight thing doesn’t matter, but if you’re ever in a funk, exercise of any kind can really help. I understand that many therapists actually suggest it to people going through depression – it’s been suggested to me, and I reaped the benefits.

    Most of us don’t have time for two hours at the gym – I sure don’t – but even 20 minutes of doing some yoga at home can potentially brighten up a bad day.

    I know it’s slightly off-topic, but I really want to second what this poster said. I have severe depression, but just walking to work/class- that’s about 20-30 minutes 5ish days a week (in addition to medication, of course) was enough to keep my depression symptoms at bay. It was very surprising, for me, just how much a difference something so little can make.

    And, back on topic… I gained weight after I started exercising on a regular basis. And I’m okay with that (mostly, I’ll admit, because I would still like to be able to wear my old jeans, again). My doctor is also okay with that. I’m healthy and I’m happy and that’s what counts.

  66. You know, if I could vaccinate myself against one behavior, it would be thinking like this ever again. Because I can eat well. And I can be physically active in enjoyable ways. Those are behaviors that can happen completely separate from feeling guilt (or shame!) for eating one slice of toast too much.

    And yet. No one gets to grow up separate from their culture. And like Bridget Jones herself, in the back of my head I know exactly how many calories were in that olive.

  67. She counts the calories in *tea*. Weird. I mean, I think about calories sometimes too, in the sense that I’ll decide not to eat a Blizzard because they have about a bazillion calories in a small one (which makes me feel ill if I try to eat all of it), and pick a different treat. But I can’t imagine actually counting up how many you eat a day. If you accidentally hit your maximum by 3pm, do you just starve for the rest of the day?

    “If anything, women should be more concerned about their waist-to-hip ratio. It’s still vanity, but at least it makes logical sense. Evolution dictates that men are attracted to women with a low waist-to-hip ratio (Small waist, big hips) because it signals that they are healthy and not currently pregnant.”

    Who says I should care about what the average man is attracted to? Maybe I’m a lesbian, or maybe I’d rather date guys who are attracted to me the way I am? I don’t see what’s so great about those other dudes that I should fret over my body shape just so I can date them. My waist-to-hip ratio is nowhere near “ideal” (it’s probably closer to 1), but it hasn’t stopped my love life yet. I’ll continue to be vain about my pretty eyes, strong facial bone structure, round butt, personality, and brain, thanks, since those are the things that are nice about me as me, rather than me as a generic woman.

  68. I feel like I hear those two numbers together quite a lot. Whether it is this or ANTM or the Real World, 5’9″ and 125lbs seem to be paired quite a lot. I myself am 5’9″ and weigh 20 lbs more than that. That still puts me on the low end of the BMI and in a size 8. It worries me that this has become a goal to work for since had I known I hit my peak weight sophomore year in high school (before completing puberty) it would have lead down a very dark road.

  69. This is a wonderful post, piny, and an intelligent discussion from the commenters. Everyone needs to think about the wacked-out standards of our appearance-obsessed consumer society. Lots of people make lots of money by guilting women about a morally neutral matter as if it were some horrific crime against huMANity.

  70. Sara – I think that the intent of the Weight Watchers commercial is simply to point out that you can lose weight without being hungry all the time. Their new plan (Momentum) is about teaching people to eat more filling foods (vegetables, whole grains, etc.) which are lower in calories AND keep you full longer. So, although I get what you’re saying, I think that you interpreted the commercial wrong. I don’t think that they’re encouraging people to be hungry all the time – at all!

  71. RE The waist to hip ratio argument – I’m sorry, but in modern Western society it really isn’t that simple in terms of attraction patterns. My ratio is about .8, and I have a friend whose ratio is about .4. I get a lot more attention from men than she does. Why is this the case despite my higher waist to hip ratio? Well, I’m a lot thinner. The whole Gold Standard idea may well work for women within a certain size range, but in practise our society’s preference for women to be thin is a lot stronger than it’s preference for them to have X waist to hip ratio. Even when it comes to hetero men.

    As to the Lay book…great, another pro-ana book, just what we needed. The thing that’s wierd to me is that apparently the general public doesn’t see this kind of thing and immediately register it as dysfunctional neurotic obsessive behavior. Or rather maybe people do, but think that’s a desireable trait in a woman. Which is what’s really disturbing about this, the fact that people will pick up this book, flip through it and decide to buy it, rather than going “holy crap this person sounds deranged”.

  72. I feel strongly that isn’t someone’s weight or calorie intake that automatically makes them “healthy” or “unhealthy.” It’s the state of their spirit– the extent to which concern with nutrition or looks eclipses the rest of the person entirely. Carol Lay has changed from a witty, imaginative artist into a dreadfully dull and obsessive bore. I can’t think of anything more hackneyed or tiresome than reading page after page of single malt balls and half-bananas, particularly with the “good/bad” and “control/surrender” themes that feminism has been trying to overcome for 50 years. Carol Lay’s artistic spirit is clearly suffering, just as Michael Jackson’s music went downhill when his body dysmorphia kicked into high gear.

    I know skinny people who eat a lot, fat people who don’t, people who enjoy thinking about nutrition because it adds to their enjoyment of life, and people who make nutrition a religion and lose themselves in the process. It isn’t about a person’s body- it’s about the PERSON.

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