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So I know we’re all tired of talking about Rick Warren…

Jill

But it’s probably worth mentioning that his church promotes a view that domestic violence isn’t grounds for divorce. It’s a more “liberal” view than some other churches — Saddleback basically says that if you’re being beaten “regularly,” you may have grounds for separation (but not divorce), where as other churches assert that you either bring beatings on yourself or they’re part of wifely submission — but as Kathryn Joyce explains in her article, the entire submissive wife framework enables abuse, and makes it much more difficult for women in those churches to get out of abusive situations.

The good news is that Christian women are forming and disseminating Biblical justifications for leaving abusive relationships. The bad news is that influential mega-churches like Saddleback seem not to have taken notice.

16 thoughts on So I know we’re all tired of talking about Rick Warren…

  1. I just cannot believe in the 21st century IN THIS COUNTRY women still have to put together “justifications” for why you can leave your abusive partner.

    AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH…

    Ever feel like we’re on a hamster wheel, madly spinning but staying in place?

  2. One of my friendly local megachurches has a commercial running on local tv urging people to come to their church for counseling instead of leaving an abusive marriage, because “no issue is too big for go,” or somesuch. My friends and I were going to go to a service there at some point, for anthropological purposes, but after seeing that I don’t think I could restrain myself from getting kicked out.

  3. Abuse is a violation of marriage vows in its own right—every degenerate bulk dump who makes his wife live in fear of him has at some earlier point in his life stood at an altar, before his god, and promised to love, honor and cherish the woman whose life he’s destroying. Abuse is a tool of hate. The marriage is already broken and it’s broken by HIM.

    And not allowing a divorce/separation in such cases violates the thirteenth amendment, IMO.

  4. Please don’t judge all churches (even mega-churches) by this misogynistic yet popular example. I go to a mega-church that advocates women leaving their abusive relationships asap with no excuses. They preach that infidelity is something that can be worked through but emotional and physical abuse is a big fat sign the marriage is sunk and needs to be cut.

  6. I am grateful to the priest who told my best friend’s mom, “God does not want you to put your body, your life, and your child at risk of serious harm by staying with your abusive husband.” I don’t believe she would have left, even temporarily, without that permission. I still squirm at the amount of authority she invested in that priest, but I’m glad that he used that authority with her health and safety in mind– I wish more would do the same.

  7. Eh…Warren is an evangelical…which means he believes in biblicism, as in strict adherence to biblical “law”. I wouldn’t be surprised if his sermons often referred to women obeying, submitting, and walking behind their husband. Universe knows I heard enough of that batshit crazy ideology when I went to those churches.

  8. For those who have the stomach for it and/or interest in the subject, Saddleback’s Web site has audio clips in which he answers questions about all sorts of stuff here. The abuse clip is number 32. It’s actually worse than I thought.

  9. And thus, once again, you can’t be religious and believe in the BIBLE, which is WRITTEN BY MAN, and consider yourself a feminist.

    Period.

  10. littleapples:
    And thus, once again, you can’t be religious and believe in the BIBLE, which is WRITTEN BY MAN, and consider yourself a feminist.

    Period.

    No. Not period. And absolutely NOT true. I really hate it when people tell me I can’t be both. Honestly, where in hell do you get off telling anyone that they aren’t feminist because of their Christianity?

    Jesus taught love, compassion, understanding and justice. He protected a woman from a legal execution by stone because the law was unfair. He told another woman that it was fine for her cousin to sit at his feet learning God’s word instead of doing the “women’s work”. He befriended prostitutes.

    I absolutely can believe in his teachings and be a feminist. The two ideologies mesh perfectly. Just because someone takes the Bible and twists it into a validation for their hatred doesn’t mean that there is no value in the stories.

  12. There’s a great book on the subject of pastoral counseling (traditional and contemporary) and engaging women in abusive situations. The book is “Proverbs of Ashes” and it was written by two female ministers, one a Methodist (Christian) minister and one a Unitarian Universalist (Post-Christian) minister.

    The book explores the history of male dominated pastoral counseling methods, “wisdom,” Bibilical and theological interpretations to support the abused wife as living like Jesus on the cross. Meaning that women should suffer like Jesus–his broken, beaten body on the cross as a model for submission to God/Husband.

    The stance that Brock and Parker take (Rita Nakashima Brock and Rebecca Ann Parker are the ministers/authors) take is that Christ died in a broken beaten state not because it was necessary and ordained by some cruel God, but rather as a consequence of living his life seeking justice for the prostitute, the outcast, the poor. It was not necessary that he die in a bloody pulp (as so many Christianst, see “The Passion of the Christ” for a gross example), but rather that sometimes when you seek justice, when you try to subvert the status quo and unend the hierarchy, good people die so others might stand up. To that end, they argue leaving a violent marriage is following Jesus’ example–it is fighting for the lives of the oppressed and it just so happens that in domestic violence, you are the oppressed. So rise up.

    Its better than I just described, but that’s the gist. There’s also some good stuff, honest stuff, about abortion. Brock talks about her abortion in the early 80’s and leaving her own crappy marriage. I think its great when female clergy not only support abortion rights, but talk about their own abortions without shame (though, she does give it shades of gray because she had the abortion in order to appease her asshat husband). So many Christian women would use that as an example as to why abortion is wrong, but Brock just lays it out as more complicated than that.

    The individual stories of abuse are hard to read at times, but the writing is good and I’d recommend it to anyone working with DV victims or at shelters. The fact is, regardless of one’s own belief (I am not a Christian), working with DV victims or recovering prostitutes (which I’ve done) the baggage of bad Christian teachings impact recovery work and if you can get the language and learn how to argue for other ways to look at “traditional” Christian teachings, it will help you and your clients in your work. Quite frankly, no matter your religion, we live in a country (those readers in the US) where Christianity is the presumed religion and most of us are at least aware of basic tenets of that faith. We’re already, in a way, fluent, so when you can help believers go from a down-right destructive view (suffer wives, like Jesus) to a more productive view (fight for justice, women) then you’ve made a dent.

  13. littleapples: Some scholars believe that the book of Hebrews was written by a woman, possibly Priscilla (a prominent woman in early Christianity).

    DaisyDeadhead: That is fascinating and wonderful! It’s from 1990; I can’t believe I didn’t find that in my own studies, but I’m glad that I know now.

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  16. Anyone who has ever actually attended Saddleback Church and been lucky enough to listen to Pastor Rick speak about abuse would never question his standing on marriage. It’s supposed to be forever (how easy it is to ignore the “till death do us part” part), but he specifically notes that abuse of ANY sort is immediate grounds for separation. Guess what, he also insists that the abused person has to forgive the abuser! Just as Jesus forgave them. But again, if you actually listen to more than a sentence or two, you’ll find that he does not believe that forgiveness equals getting back together with an abuser.

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