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Pope rehabilitates Holocaust denier

Jill

Apparently Holocaust denial = a-ok. But a 14-year-old rape victim having a legal abortion? Excommunication.

And, really? I am glad that the New York Times put these two articles — the Holocaust denial and the Obama piece — right next to each other. It’s a nice contrast.

25 thoughts on Pope rehabilitates Holocaust denier

  1. How can anyone deny the horror that occurred during the holocaust and then be embraced by anyone let alone an institution that is supposed to be a moral and religious guide? I don’t even have the proper words to convey my disgust.

  2. While disgusting, this is not surprising. The Catholic Church, as I have understood it, has always been willing to compartmentalize faith and loyalty to the church teachings, etc. as something completely separate from one’s other thoughts and actions in the mundane world. It is a particularly patriarchal kind of compartmentalization–also not surprising, given that we are talking about the church–since it seems to hold that one’s faith, etc. are not political and should not be politicized, i.e., the personal is not political when it comes to God. I am furious!

  4. Didn’t the catholic church and its members turn their heads the other way during the holocaust? They pretended it wasn’t happening. Nothing has changed. No suprise here.

  5. ‘Supposed’ is the key word there Renee. They’re ‘supposed’ to be a moral guide, but a long history of violence, greed, racism, misogyny makes it clear how big a lie that is. It’s the same old story – the lie is so big people can’t help but swallow it.

  7. Ahh, but don’t you see, Jill? The 14 year old girl was clearly a filthy whore (and even if she wasn’t, God planned this) trying to murder an innocent baby and the holocaust was really just a more efficient example of the pogroms the church has supported for centuries. Besides, it was just Jews, they killed Jesus!

    /sarcasm

  9. I’ve heard claims of the Catholic church and particularly the vatican saved tens of thousands of Jews during WW2. On the other hand they didn’t say a word against the Holocause while it was going on. Maybe the claims of saving Jews is propaganda? I shall have to investigate further. But I agree that both of these things are disgusting. Oh and to make this more awesome, my dad just converted to Catholicism. I really don’t know what’s wrong with him.

  10. I’ve heard claims of the Catholic church and particularly the vatican saved tens of thousands of Jews during WW2. On the other hand they didn’t say a word against the Holocause while it was going on. Maybe the claims of saving Jews is propaganda?

    Not sure about the numbers….but the Catholic Church/individual Catholics saving some Jews during WWII may have been possible.

    Keep in mind though that not only did they not say a word against the Nazi regime……but also supported it to some extent as a bulwark against Communism and its anti-religious ideology. In addition, they also ran a ratline at the end of the war which facilitated the escape of thousands of Nazi war criminals and thus…sheltering them from facing justice for their horrifically evil deeds.

  11. Keep in mind though that not only did they not say a word against the Nazi regime……but also supported it to some extent as a bulwark against Communism and its anti-religious ideology. In addition, they also ran a ratline at the end of the war which facilitated the escape of thousands of Nazi war criminals and thus…sheltering them from facing justice for their horrifically evil deeds.

    Pfft. You and your “facts” and “evidence” and “accurate understanding of socio-political context.” Don’t you know these are men of god? Show some faith!

  13. Individual Catholic clergy have in fact helped to save Jews and members of other prosecuted groups. But the church as an institution turned a blind eye, and what’s more: high ranking members of the Catholic church also helped protect Nazi perpetrators after the victory of the allied forces.
    So no, no great surprise there, especialy not uner Pope Nazinger the 18th…

  14. Rachel – hah. Wow.

    In case it’s not obvious where I stand – I think it’s bad, I’m a Jew, I wonder what’s the matter with these people. But probably the Vatican thinks that the Holocaust denier had only ideological issues (though serious ones), while the girl according to their doctrine killed somebody? It’s infuriating but I don’t think they’re picking and choosing… seems pretty consistant.

  16. This pope makes Mahmoud Ahmadinejad look progressive!

    More like it makes them look like birds of a feather.

  17. I wrote this at the Pandagon thread on this:

    Meanwhile, awesome human beings like Father Roy Bourgeois get excommunicated by this pope.

    http://www.democracynow.org/2008/11/20/vatican_threatens_to_excommunicate_catholic_priest

    Roy Bourgeois started the School of the Americas Watch after witnessing US-sponsored violence against, among others, liberation theology catholics in Latin America. He’s been to jail for his untiring activism. He’s being excommunicated over the presiding over the confirmation of a woman priest. Thisi interview is worth hearing/reading.

    Shorter me: your little club really stinks, Papa Ratzi. You kick out the wonderful people
    and welcome (and protect) sociopathic scum.

  18. Pingback: William K. Wolfrum Chronicles » Blog Archive » No one expects a blogaround IV

  20. You see, this is why I come to Feministe – for cogent discussion of the Sedevacanist heresy.

    There is no doctrine requiring the acceptance of the historical fact of the Holocaust, however there is doctrine requiring the acceptance of the authority of the See. Lifting an excommunication is not an endorsement of anything – and particularly not Holocaust denial – but rather recognizes that the formerly excommunicated has no longer separated himself from Mother Church by rejecting essential doctrine. I suppose you could have found that out yourself, but, you know, that might have required effort, and gotten in the way of bashing some favorite go-to targets.

    Also, I, as a Roman Catholic, hereby apologize – now and for all time – that the Pope did not marshal his divisions of the Papal Marine Expeditionary Force behind the standard of the True Cross, and release the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch, to defeat the Axis powers and prevent the Holocaust.

  21. You see, this is why I come to Feministe – for cogent discussion of the Sedevacanist heresy.

    See, thats the beauty of being a heathen (or apostate, in my case): you can snark away at the politics of men with ridiculous hats and not worry about their internal logic. Heresy really only holds meaning if you’re one of the faithful, and doctrine only matters if you submit yourself to the body that issued it.

    Lifting an excommunication is not an endorsement of anything – and particularly not Holocaust denial – but rather recognizes that the formerly excommunicated has no longer separated himself from Mother Church by rejecting essential doctrine.

    Ahh, but choosing who to bring into the fold and who to damn offers an interesting insight into the values and priorities of the church. It tells us something about context. It might be perfectly internally consistent to forgive a holocaust denier and excommunicated a 14 year old rape victim, but internal consistency doesn’t make the situation or the priorities any less aberrant.

    I suppose you could have found that out yourself, but, you know, that might have required effort, and gotten in the way of bashing some favorite go-to targets.

    Don’t be arrogant enough to assume that anyone ought to care about the motivations behind how your club manages membership. Its a new world (or old, depending on your sense of perspective) and everyone in the discussion isn’t required half-kneel or fake a bow before discussion church doctrine. You can’t put dissenters to the stake for mocking you anymore.

    The RCC gets a lot of shit from a lot of people for good reason. They aren’t some oppressed minority religion just trying to get by but instead an incredibly wealthy and influential body with a history of direction, commission, or complicity in a list of horrors which puts even the worst tyrants of the 20th century to shame. So no, the church doesn’t get to play the victim card. Not after the brutal destruction of cultures across Europe, not after murdering women as “witches” for 1000 years, not after stoking the fires of colonialism and genocide from the Americas to south east Asia, not after actively suppressing science and medicine in the west for centuries in the name of church doctrine, not after the slaughter of the Cathars (or the gnostics, or the Parisian Calvinists, or any of the others), not after willfully encouraging the destruction of cultural artifacts across the world which offended their teachings, not after profiting from the suffering of peoples across the world from the time they got into bed with the Roman empire until the present day, not after covering up the rape of children. No, sorry, your church doesn’t get to pull the victim card and whine about a lack of understanding, sorry.

    Also, I, as a Roman Catholic, hereby apologize – now and for all time – that the Pope did not marshal his divisions of the Papal Marine Expeditionary Force behind the standard of the True Cross, and release the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch, to defeat the Axis powers and prevent the Holocaust.

    Fighting wasn’t necessary, but at a bare minimum a lack of collusion would have been nice.

  22. “See, thats the beauty of being a heathen (or apostate, in my case): you can snark away at the politics of men with ridiculous hats and not worry about their internal logic.”

    I’m inclined to hope, for your sake, that you’re not a grown man using the non-word “snark.” You do know that it takes at least two to be a proper libertine? I can’t help but pity you for the obvious futility of the exercise in your case.

    In my experience, successful “snarkery” or whatever, requires a rudimentary understanding of the object of the “snark,” which is, in this case, excommunication –
    and this:

    “choosing who to bring into the fold and who to damn”

    is not it.

    “Don’t be arrogant enough to assume that anyone ought to care about the motivations behind how your club manages membership . . . everyone in the discussion isn’t required half-kneel or fake a bow before discussion church doctrine. You can’t put dissenters to the stake for mocking you anymore”

    How ‘bout understanding the thing discussed before we let loose with our lashing at the Church. I haven’t been impressed by mockery like yours since the gaggle of safety pin bedecked mallrats outside the formal wear store in prom season.

    “No, sorry, your church doesn’t get to pull the victim card and whine about a lack of understanding, sorry.”

    I don’t recall usurping your deck of “victim cards,” I merely pointed out your ignorance – which you are apparently quite proud to share. I’m not so weak in my convictions that I need to perceive understanding something as “bowing.” I will credit you, however, for maintaining a bone in your throat for the Cathars and lamenting the waning and near extinction of Teutonic religious practices.

    “[f]ighting wasn’t necessary, but at a bare minimum a lack of collusion would have been nice.”

    Why not simply admit that you’d have preferred that the Vatican provoke a blitz and be overrun and substantially destroyed by the Germans?

  23. I’m inclined to hope, for your sake, that you’re not a grown man using the non-word “snark.” You do know that it takes at least two to be a proper libertine? I can’t help but pity you for the obvious futility of the exercise in your case.

    Aww, its sweet that you’re concerned but don’t you go worrying about my sex life. More to the point, pay attention to the words used. Never once did I use the word libertine. I’d comment about the myriad of projective interpretations your response begs, but I’m off the clock at the moment.

    How ‘bout understanding the thing discussed before we let loose with our lashing at the Church. I haven’t been impressed by mockery like yours since the gaggle of safety pin bedecked mallrats outside the formal wear store in prom season.

    Keep saying that to yourself. Meanwhile I’ll just be over here, not pointing out that you seem to have been activated enough to fire off two angry posts. And to keep checking an old thread. And…well…you get the point.

    I don’t recall usurping your deck of “victim cards,”

    Interesting, thats not how I read the indignation regarding the “bashing [of] some favorite go-to targets.”

    I’m not so weak in my convictions that I need to perceive understanding something as “bowing.”

    But apparently not strong enough to turn the other cheek…

    I will credit you, however, for maintaining a bone in your throat for the Cathars and lamenting the waning and near extinction of Teutonic religious practices.

    God, that was like, over ten years ago or something, why don’t I just get over it? Also, notice how you just kinda glossed over all the other peoples who have had their cultures virtually exterminated in the name of conversion?

    Why not simply admit that you’d have preferred that the Vatican provoke a blitz and be overrun and substantially destroyed by the Germans?

    Heaven forbid God’s representative on earth show the courage of his convictions and stand up in the face of evil. I mean, what kind of fool would invite the wrath of an evil man in the name of good or to protect the innocent. Surely such an act is far too much to ask, especially when it would have been so unprecedented in the history of the church. I mean…that would practically be martyrdom!

    Besides, theres a lot of valuable stuff in the Vatican and if they’d lost it all to the Germans how would the Pope afford new Prada shoes and where would the hush money come from to cover up the institutionalized rape of children?

  24. There is no doctrine requiring the acceptance of the historical fact of the Holocaust

    It would come under the part about not bearing false witness – the Holocaust happened, there is no basis to legitimately conclude that it didn’t happen, which means than anyone who denies it is lying. And committing slander against its surviving victims (who are by absolute implication being accused of lying about their ordeals).

    I don’t even have the proper words to convey my disgust.

    Renee, there was a documentary on British TV last year on Holocaust denial. One of the people they quoted speaking out against it was a former camp guard. Even one of the Holocaust’s perpetrators was disgusted by the denial of it; that sumps up its vileness for me.

  25. My father is Jewish and my mother is Catholic. I was raised Roman Catholic and was practicing until 1.5 years ago. I stopped going because I don’t agree with several things, such as the church’s stance on homosexuality, birth control, etc. But these are things I could accept as differences between the RC Church’s views and my own. I don’t agree with them, but I respect their right to have them.
    The fact that the Pope allowed 4 excommunicated bishops “back into the fold” didn’t faze me. The fact that one of them denies that the Holocaust occurred, stating that no more than 300, 000 Jews died during World War II and none of them in a gas chamber, disgusts and angers me more than I can express.
    As for:
    “Didn’t the catholic church and its members turn their heads the other way during the holocaust? They pretended it wasn’t happening. Nothing has changed. No suprise here.”
    — That’s a blanket comment and completely untrue. There were priests and other clergy who tried to help Jews and others who were targeted by the Nazis. Please don’t generalize and therefore forget about the good that was done during that horrific period of time. As for pretending that the Holocaust wasn’t happening – whole towns that were situated near concentration camps in Europe buried their heads in the sand because the truth was inconceivable and too horrifying for them to address. It wasn’t right, but it happened.

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