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More Moral Than Thou?

Lauren

Huh:

Countries worthy of consideration aren’t those like North Korea and China, where religion is savagely repressed, but those in which people freely choose atheism. In his new book, Society Without God, Phil Zuckerman looks at the Danes and the Swedes—probably the most godless people on Earth. They don’t go to church or pray in the privacy of their own homes; they don’t believe in God or heaven or hell. But, by any reasonable standard, they’re nice to one another. They have a famously expansive welfare and health care service. They have a strong commitment to social equality. And—even without belief in a God looming over them—they murder and rape one another significantly less frequently than Americans do.

Denmark and Sweden aren’t exceptions. A 2005 study by Gregory Paul looking at 18 democracies found that the more atheist societies tended to have relatively low murder and suicide rates and relatively low incidence of abortion and teen pregnancy.

The question looming in my head is whether Bloom’s thesis should be about atheism or secularism, or whether this essay is merely about how much cooler atheists are than Christians.

34 thoughts on More Moral Than Thou?

  1. Excuse me, but no, it’s not about how atheists are cooler than Christians.

    The point was that in America, religion is an excluding force for atheists and it makes their lives worse, whereas in more secular places nobody is going to judge/exclude you for not believing, and you still get to go to that potluck dinner at your church.

    It’s about a more unified social fabric that America just doesn’t have because it’s filled with too many zealots. I completely agree with this analysis – I grew up in a family of atheists in a very conservative, religious town. I watched my agnostic/atheist friends deal with their religious parents and it made them very bitter and withdrawn at times. It is hard to live in a place where one’s religiosity is being judged all the time – it’s clear to me that religion is overblown to the point of destructiveness here in America.

  2. It seems to me that he’s trying study the effects of atheism on morality. As an atheist who has often heard the arguments that we are incapable of being moral and kind people without belief in God, I’m curious at his findings.

    It’s probably also true that those countries’ secular philosophies make them a better place to live. One of the U.S. problems is that radical Christians are getting too much political power. Our Constitution, which was created by some very religion-neutral men, seems to be ignored in these cases.

    Lack of religion is certainly not the only factor in why those countries are good places for their citizens, but it’s nice to see that it somewhat invalidates the argument that there is no morality with atheism.

    I don’t see any attempt to prove atheism is better than Christianity, I think it just shows that too much religion in government is not good for anyone.

  3. Well, by all definitions USA is one of the most secular nations in the world. For instance, USA don’t have a state religion, while it’s only a decade since Sweden abolished it’s state church, and there’s still a “special” connection between the former state church and the state. And Norway, which in many ways is much like Sweden, there’s still a state church and a state religion (although this is about to change, but things take time).

    But I think it’s the other way around, because of the welfare state and the safe conditions in the Scandinavian countries people don’t need religion or the comfort of a religious community.

  4. I actually think it’s doing nothing more than debunking the all too prevalent theory that people like me have no “reason” to be good and are therefore evil and consistently immoral.

  5. I gave it a quick read, and I didn’t get the impression it was about belief versus non-believe, or christians versus aethiests.

    At its core, it seemed to be about community. That’s what I got out of it. People with strong communities, and shared experiences and values have more egalitarian societies. And I got the impression that that transcends the actual amount of church attendance, or the vigor with which on professes belief in a supernatural being.

  7. I read this article a while back too. In a weird, roundabout way he’s debunking (yet at the same time, perpetuating) the myth that atheists are miserable people because they don’t have god in their lives. Really, its all a bunch of bull.
    And yes, atheists are cooler than christians.

  8. That was some pretty selective quoting… you left out the part where he talked about how religious Americans are happier and more charitable than American atheists. And his thesis wasn’t really about secularism or atheism but about how people with a strong sense of community (which includes religious people in America and “religious atheists” in Scandanavia but excludes American atheists) are happier and “nicer” than people without.

  9. I like finding support for secularism as much as the next person, but I’m gonna call contaminating variable on this. By eliminating the vast majority of the world’s atheists and then focusing on atheists in small, prosperous, highly educated, socially stable and secure nations Zuckerman is essentially making the same fundamental mistake that Herrnstein & Murray made with “The Bell Curve”. Sure, the difference between Sweden and New Orleans might be relative rates of religiosity but theres a few other variables a reasonably aware person would likely look at first. Moreover, the Paul study mentioned in the article isn’t what I would call high quality research; it compared rates of things like mortality before age 5, gonorrhea infection, and acceptance of evolution with church attendance and how often people reported praying. There wasn’t any statistical analysis to speak of and the correlational data that could be inferred wasn’t really that striking. You can find it here: http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

  11. I personally do not think religious people are moral. Being moral is being good simply for the sake of being good not because some sort of imaginary sky daddy will punish you forever and ever (because he loves you and wants you to give his designated beggar some money) or will reward you with paradise if you follow his irrational and often contradictory rules.

    I live in Texas where the nastiest most amoral rudest people of all are the most religious. I call it faith based hate. they don’t have to be good because they’ve been born again and are part of the saved elite.

    It isn’t a matter of atheists being better. We aren’t part of a herd with ideological justifications for our hatreds. Coming to atheism requires questioning and philosophical thinking. I am an existentialist we don’t call it morality but rather ethics.

    The religious claim sky daddy demands this sort of good behavior. Me… I watch nature shows and see goodness in the behavior of various animals (as well as badness).

    Morality is conscious choice to behave ethically. Religiousity is following orders to hate who the preacher says to hate and give lots of money to the preacher.

  12. I think there’s a bit of a correlation/causation thing going on here. In countries where things are more stable (less dangerous, better structured), people are freer to be (publicly) atheist. This could be because there’s something awesome about atheism that helps make things more stable, or it could be that there’s something about stability that lends itself to atheism, or it could be neither of those things.

    There’s also the huge issue of scale. A phenomenon that makes people ‘nicer’ on an individual level under a certain set of conditions (which, mind you, includes ‘being studied’ and ‘being in the United States’ to begin with) does not necessarily add up to a ‘nicer’ society. Macro-level phenomena aren’t just summations of micro-level happenings. He kind of gets at this with the whole community thing at the end, but doesn’t really follow through on it.

    I realize that this isn’t supposed to be an academic paper, and that I’m still in paper-critiquing mode from class, but even though I agree with some of his statements, and I think the data is intriguing, I find the essay shaky at best. There are a lot of weird jumps, unsupported conclusions, and broad assumptions tossed in there. I’d give it a C + at best, and that’s taking into consideration the clarity of the writing style and joyful abundance of proper punctuation and spelling.

  13. I think the thing about Scandinavia is the freedom to be who you want. If you want to be highly religious, the church will embrace you and people won’t judge you if you don’t judge them. Likewise, if you want to be an atheist, the church and the state won’t force religion on you.

    Irrespective of whether the Swedish state abolished the link between church and State a decade ago, the Church of Sweden never had the power that the religious right has had (still does have?) in the US. Part of this is because people wouldn’t put up with a religious organisation dictating how they should behave, even if they were officially affiliated with it.

    I think it’s very difficult to make any statements about whether atheists are happier/cooler than their religious counterparts since there are so many ways of being an atheist and being religious.

    I think the most important thing is that in countries like the Scandinavian countries, you can think what you want without pressure from religious organisations. That’s not the case in a lot of Central, Eastern and Southern Europe nor in the US. There is so much more involvement in the day to day life of people who are nothing to do with these religions in these areas and I can see why that would make an atheist in these places feel less happy (let alone members of other religions).

  14. Why aren’t countries like North Korea and China worthy of consideration? China, for all its problems, maintains a far higher standard of living, even among its poorest citizens, than its religious, capitalist counterpart, India. I think it’s also worthy to consider how religion was used historically by the Japanese in the oppression of Korea, and how it lead to the spiritual focus being placed on Juche, or self-reliance. Historically, religion has been one of the strongest supporters of fascist movements, which is one of the reasons why many anti-imperialist states take such extreme measures in repressing the growth of religion in their countries.
    I guess the countries which live off the profits of imperialism and support NATO intervention are the only countries worth talking about, though. Because non-white societies who actually have real reason to fear religion movements are “savage”…

  15. Sorry… A quick addendum:

    I’m not saying that in places like the rest of Europe and in the US, one doesn’t have the right to be who one wants, I’m saying that you are under more pressure from religious organisations to conform to a set of beliefs they believe is right for their country,

    I never felt that pressure in Scandinavia. There is quite a strong religious community, split between Lutheran, Catholic, Islam and pagan religions, but there is a strong taboo from society of pushing your religious beliefs on other, so the arguments happen in the secular space not the religious space.

  16. Being moral is being good simply for the sake of being good not because some sort of imaginary sky daddy will punish you forever and ever […] or will reward you with paradise if you follow his irrational and often contradictory rules.

    True enough, but not all religious people think that way. Most of the religious people I know are indeed good for the sake of being good… sometimes also because they believe God has called them to be that way, but not because they want to go to heaven or are afraid of hell.

  17. Emily, Sweden has been as religiously nasty and worse than anything you see in the US. Sweden just has a history a mite longer than the US.

  18. I personally do not think religious people are moral. Being moral is being good simply for the sake of being good not because some sort of imaginary sky daddy will punish you forever and ever (because he loves you and wants you to give his designated beggar some money) or will reward you with paradise if you follow his irrational and often contradictory rules.

    Sigh.

    Imperialist Christianity =/ Religion

  19. Ashley Says: “Sigh.

    Imperialist Christianity =/ Religion”

    With the big three of the desert sky daddies not just xianity all those aspects and more are present. Generally religion universally sucks for women and LGBT folks

  20. I think this is a case of post hoc ergo propter hoc. Denmark and Sweden happen to be highly atheistic — but they have some of the highest standards of living in the world, and probably some of the best-educated populations in the world. Danes and Swedes are literate, academically educated, and smart. There is a much higher incidence of atheism among the well-educated and the comparatively wealthy than there is among the poor and illiterate. This author is drawing lines between these excellent social programs and high standards of living and the high incidence of atheism in these countries, when in fact the atheism is a side effect of the excellent social services and high standards of living and education.

  21. I think Europe is quite comfortable with atheism- between Britain and France, I’ve never felt any pressure to believe. Those who want to can-the rest can do whatever they like. It’s a state of affairs I’m very comfortable with 🙂

  22. Denmark and Sweden happen to be highly atheistic — but they have some of the highest standards of living in the world, and probably some of the best-educated populations in the world.

    The level of education in Denmark, is actually no higher than the level of education in the US (though some would claim that the quality is higher)

  23. And yes, atheists are cooler than christians.

    Well, daymn, sister, if I knew this was a contest, I would have worn my best fuck-me boots! 😉

    As for the book, I think it’s simple:

    Religion doesn’t make you more moral.
    Atheism doesn’t make you more moral.
    Morality makes you more moral.

    The rest of it is just circumstance – nature, nurture, and such.

  24. @shah8

    Sweden has been as religiously nasty and worse than anything you see in the US. Sweden just has a history a mite longer than the US.

    That’s a fair statement and having moved from a history of belief in the old Norse traditions (Asatro/Ásatrú) to a more Earth-bound religion (Wicca) for this very reason, I’m very aware of the bloody history of Sweden and the rest of Scandinavia.

    However, that said, I lived in the Sweden in the 1970s and have spent a decent amount of my time there since then and I just don’t feel the pressure from the religious community that I feel in the US or in certain other parts of Europe.

    I’m trying to judge Scandinavia now and the rest of the world now. In the last fifty years, there has been significantly less religious involvement in people’s lives, unless they themselves invested in being part of it, than elsewhere in Europe and the US. I think that’s what is the pertinent aspect to the discussion of this post.

  25. Why aren’t countries like North Korea and China worthy of consideration?

    Because in countries where you aren’t free to follow a religion, then you can’t assume that anyone who claims to be atheist is telling the truth.

  26. One observation my (atheist) father made was that he is so politically active because ,for him, this life is a one-shot deal…Everyone deserves the basic creature comforts and freedoms ASAP, since in his opinion there is no “reward in heaven”. None of this “sit through the church service and you can have a sack lunch” stuff–if someone is hungry, that is reason enough to feed them.

  28. “the Danes and the Swedes—probably the most godless people on Earth. They don’t go to church or pray in the privacy of their own homes; they don’t believe in God or heaven or hell.”

    I guess all those we see in church aren’t people, then. Hum.

    Coming from Denmark I find that quote somewhat… misguided. Did he *really* look at our societies?

    As for community. Has this bloke even considered looking at the foundations of our societies. I know for a fact that Denmark and Sweden are built on socialist values and social structures. I should know, I live here. This socialist leaning means first of all that our right wing is further to left than the American left wing. Think on that for a bit and wonder if there may be a connection there.

    We don’t murder each other as often in Denmark and Sweden, but in Finland they’ve had several of those terrible high school shootings, and Finland is as socialist and un-religious in its social structure as Denmark and Sweden. What then? How about gun laws? Guns abound in Finland. Their gun laws are almost as liberal as those of the US. Whereas in DK only very few people have license to own a gun, and even fewer are licensed t keep it at home rather than a the shootng range, and no one aside from the police and hunters are licensed to carry guns outside of police work and hunting. No one.

    A connection? Maybe?

    The rape statistics is another story, and the percentages I hear are as horrifying here as they are in the US. So I don’t know what he’s been comparing, but we’re no angels that’s for sure.

    The number of abortions in DK has been steadily climbing these last few years, and I betcha that’s because a lot of them are teens who want to avoid those teen pregnancies we don’t have so many of.

    As for the religious thing with weddings and babtizing the children. Can you say: American tv’s influence? Nearly 30 years ago when my folks got married because I was on the way marriages at city hall were more common than they are today. Now, however, the white wedding race is on again and it has to be big and princess-like and I feel like hurling most of the time. What do we have now, that we didn’t 30 years ago? TV, American tv-series and ads and American media’s influence in general.

    It may just be me, but I’m seeing a connection here that may be worth doing some detective work on.

    Take it from a Dane 😉

  29. We atheists are DEF the cool kids. Duh! 🙂 We read such cool shit as scienceblogs and skepchick. *pushes up her glasses*

    We are the COOLEST.

  30. Interesting. Living in Quebec, I see the festering influence of the American Christian right infiltrating some of our public policies.

    Quebec is an interesting place. Fifty years ago, it was still under the juggernaut hold of the Catholic church: schools, hospitals, higher education, it was all controlled by the Church. This period is known as la grande noirceur, the great darkness. Since the early 50’s Quebec has become one of the more socially progressive provinces in Canada, and the most secular. The Church has become irrelevant in the eyes of most Québecois. And although people complain about high taxes, there’s also a certain pride in living in a compassionate society that cares about the greater good.

    Recently though, there has been some backlash, and a distinct split has formed between urban and rural communities. It will be interesting to see how things will evolve.

  31. One minor point: Studies showing that religious people are more generous contributors to charity are often cited by the Sean Hannitys of the world. What I suspect is that this “charity” consists primarily of contributions to one’s own church.

    While many churches do good deeds, they spend most of their contributions on themselves. That’s not meant as a put-down: They have to. Clergy have to eat, buildings have to be maintained, etc.

    But the point is, church donations are, IMO, more in the nature of membership fees than charitable contributions.

  32. Jemima, being a Dane doesn’t necessarily make you right a when you talk about Denmark.

    I guess all those we see in church aren’t people, then. Hum.

    Depending on where you live, you can either see very empty churches or very full churches.

    Personally, I have yet to be in a full church except at holiday sermons or special occasions (weddings etc.). Of course, I rarely go to church, and don’t know anyone who does. Since there is no statistics on church attendance, it’s really hard to tell how many people actually go to church in Denmark.

    As for community. Has this bloke even considered looking at the foundations of our societies. I know for a fact that Denmark and Sweden are built on socialist values and social structures. I should know, I live here.

    You might “know that for a fact”, but you need to go re-read your history books. Socialists have had very little influence on shaping the Scandinavian societies. Rather, it has been social-democrats and labor unions who have done this. There is a vast difference between being a socialist and a social-democrat.

    The Social Democrats in Denmark actively fought against socialist influence, and considered the communists a greater threat than the parties to the right.

    This socialist leaning means first of all that our right wing is further to left than the American left wing. Think on that for a bit and wonder if there may be a connection there.

    Nonsense. While the Democratic Party would not be considered left-winged in Denmark, they are hardly to the right of parties like Venstre or De Konservative, and certainly not to the right of the racist Dansk Folkeparty – a party in which many of the more populist Republicans probably would feel right at home.

    Also, there are US parties to the left of the Democrats. They are just operating on the state level rather than on the national level.

    We don’t murder each other as often in Denmark and Sweden, but in Finland they’ve had several of those terrible high school shootings, and Finland is as socialist and un-religious in its social structure as Denmark and Sweden. What then? How about gun laws? Guns abound in Finland. Their gun laws are almost as liberal as those of the US. Whereas in DK only very few people have license to own a gun, and even fewer are licensed t keep it at home rather than a the shootng range, and no one aside from the police and hunters are licensed to carry guns outside of police work and hunting. No one.

    A connection? Maybe?

    Except people in Hjemmeværnet (the national guard). I do agree with you on this point though.

    The rape statistics is another story, and the percentages I hear are as horrifying here as they are in the US. So I don’t know what he’s been comparing, but we’re no angels that’s for sure.

    In 2006 there were 516 cases of rape reported to the police. There are approximately 3 million women in Denmark. Yes, the numbers are too high (anything above zero is too high), but from what I hear, the numbers are much higher in the US

    The number of abortions in DK has been steadily climbing these last few years, and I betcha that’s because a lot of them are teens who want to avoid those teen pregnancies we don’t have so many of.

    No they haven’t. In 1981 there were nearly 23,000 abortions in Denmark. This number steadily declined through the eighties and nineties, and the last few years, there have been approximately 15,000 abortions per year.

    As per your idea that teens get a lot of these: Well, in 2006, women between 15 and 19 got 2,500 abortions. This was the highest number since 1993.

    Also, I don’t see a problem with young women getting an abortion rather than having a baby they don’t want.

    As for the religious thing with weddings and babtizing the children. Can you say: American tv’s influence? Nearly 30 years ago when my folks got married because I was on the way marriages at city hall were more common than they are today. Now, however, the white wedding race is on again and it has to be big and princess-like and I feel like hurling most of the time. What do we have now, that we didn’t 30 years ago? TV, American tv-series and ads and American media’s influence in general.

    Again, you know not of what you speak.

    It’s possible to find the numbers for the number of marriages from 1901 to 2007. Not only that, you can also get the number of marriages taking place outside the church (“borgerlige vielser”) and from this, you can deduct the number of church weddings.

    Looking at these numbers, I can tell you that since 2001, more than half of all weddings have taken place outside the church. Before 2001, the opposite was true in all cases. In 2007 there was actually fewer church weddings (17,244) than 30 years before (18,011).

    It may just be me, but I’m seeing a connection here that may be worth doing some detective work on.

    Yes. I agree, it’s a good idea to look at the number. May I recommend using Danmarks Statistik next time?

  33. Now first of all, Kristjan, I suggest you get off your high horse and stop being so insufferably haughty with me.

    “Depending on where you live, you can either see very empty churches or very full churches. ”

    But people DO go to church. I didn’t say we had full churches, you numbskull. I quoted a passage saying we were godless people and that the Danes don’t go to church. That must mean that those who are seen in the Danish church either are not people or not Danes. Perhaps you need to read what I actually wrote before getting all superior on my ass.

    According to the last I heard of church attendance it was decreasing, but there are still people who go to church. Take it from someone who’s gone to work in a church every fucking Sunday for 16 years. And trust me, while the churches may not be full there are still people there.

    As for my History books: they’re fine thanks. The soc-dems fought The Socialists. They didn’t fight all the socialist values. Learn English. Learn politics. No the soc-dems aren’t socialists, I didn’t say they were. But our society is nonetheless built on socialist values. Welfare, socialized healthcare, child care etc etc. all of those things are based in socialist values, and yes, this I know for a fact. It has jack shit to do with who has been in power and whatnot, it has EVERYTHING to do with how our society is constructed. Currently our right wing government is disbanding and disabling more and more of those things with a socialist leaning, so I’m deathly scared that if it continues we won’t be living in a socialist leaning society anymore, but rather a copy of America and then you can count me out of here.

    If you read up on labour unions btw you’ll find that the notion of worker’s rights is actually sprung from socialism. SO Labour unions having done something clearly negates any socialist influence. *snort*

    As for the right wing left wing comparison with the US. Perhaps I should have clarified I was talking at government level where none of the extremist parties actually reside. Dansk Folkeparti as a strange exception with no places in government but great influence anyway. Still, they were nowhere as extreme as the Republican party in the States.

    In many ways, the Democratic Party is in fact to the right of Venstre and Konservative. Especially on such topics as Equal Rights.

    Ah yes, the statistics of those reported to the police. Useless. Look up those reported to Kvindecentre and the like. We’ll be far more on par with the US. Frightfully, last I checkd some statistics Denmark actually has a lower conviction rate in rape cases than the US does.

    I can’t be arsed to check the statistics for someone who clearly only came to beat me over the head, but I rely just a tad bit on the news. And a few months ago, heard on said news that spite of the number of abortions decreasing over the past 20 or so years it has begun rising again over he past two or three iirc. So stuff your statistic from the ninetees and listen to the news once in a while.

    No, being a Dane doesn’t make me right in all things Danish, but reading statistics doesn’t make you anymore knowledgable about real life. In this, perhaps it is you who knows not of what he speaks.

    I was wrong about marriage numbers – fair enough. It was a hunch. I was wrong. *shrug*

  34. We don’t murder each other as often in Denmark and Sweden, but in Finland they’ve had several of those terrible high school shootings, and Finland is as socialist and un-religious in its social structure as Denmark and Sweden.

    Social structure aside, there’s only been two school shootings in the entire history of Finland. I don’t think it constitutes as “several”.

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