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We take a brief moment to rant on about terminology with regards to sex work…

The terms, when speaking of sex workers, “selling their bodies”/ “selling themselves” need to die in a fire.  Rather than write about it yet again, I am just going to hack a few bits from previous posts over from that dive I call a blog so perhaps some perspective can be gained and I won’t have to see those terms in any more comment threads!  Hey, a gal can dream, right?

“…I got to thinking about the terminology used by folks when discussing the business of sex work, namely the assertion that sex workers are “selling themselves”. I have decided not only do I dislike this phrasing, but it is inaccurate.

When something is bought or sold, it implies direct ownership. You buy a car, you own it. You buy a pair of shoes, you own them. Yes, in some unfortunate cases, some sex workers are owned, literally, but by in large, that is not truly the case. What ever other reasons, conditions or motivations rest behind a woman or mans involvement in sex work, be it stripping or erotic massage or porn or nude modeling or prostitution, they are not owned. They are not bought. They are not selling themselves. They are providing a service, which does not result in ownership. I also think often, whether intentional or not, when people use such terminology “you are selling yourself”, there is a level of shock tactics involved. Such terms imply slavery…that the sex worker, regardless of his or her conditions, level of autonomy, or choices is, merely via the terminology, property. A slave. The whole of their being a commodity, which is bought and sold. And that is demeaning. Truth is, sex workers are not property, or slaves, or the whole of their being a commodity. They are not bought or owned, and they are not selling themselves, they are selling a service. They are not even truly selling their bodies or sexuality. If anything, they are renting them out for a fee. The majority of them are not ‘kept’ by their customers. They are not put away somewhere after they have served their purpose like a car or a pair of shoes. They are people who then go their own way, do their own thing, and live their lives. They have not been sold. They have provided a service, conducted business, and remain people rather than goods. I may sell sexuality, but I am not owned. No one has a deed or receipt for me as a person. I am not selling myself, nor being sold. I am providing a service and perhaps renting my sexuality. That is what a sex worker does. I go home to my own house and my own life; I am not ‘used then put in my owners garage’. I am not a slave or someone’s property, and terminology such as “you’re selling yourself” implies just that, and it is demeaning, shaming, and inaccurate. So please think of that the next time you decide to talk about sex workers selling themselves, because doing so objectifies them, boils them down to merely their sexuality just as much the worse of consumers might. It implies that the whole of their being is what they are selling; when in truth they are renting a fantasy, a body, their sexual or erotic organs and movement skills. Which is not all they are, it is not ‘themselves’. Get it now?”

“…Then there are those who “sell their bodies”…and even amongst them there is a caste system. Super Models and professional athletes are often highly paid celebrities, even though they are selling their bodies. Many manual laborers, while not respected like doctors or comedians, are often seen as honest, work-a-day folk who make hard work and sweat noble in a blue-collar way…then there are those others, you know, them…the whores and hustlers and strippers who are selling nude bodies, or gasp, even more dreadful than that…what’s between their legs! Which automatically equates in the minds of many to their dignity, their intimacy, their self-respect, their souls…

Which also makes it in the minds of many the only sort of profession where the whole of your worth as human is what’s for sale…and am I the only one who finds it mildly ironic that so many people seem to equate genitalia to the physical and spiritual representation of the sole source and whole worth of a human? Especially atheists and pagans and feminists and who ever else who are trying to buck the patriarchal/religious chastity/purity/virginity thing? You can sell your mind, and your social skills, even parts of your body…but once genitalia is involved…suddenly, the rules change, because genitals=the whole of your being because they are such intimate, sacred bits.

Also, it seems that selling, and I mean literally selling, some parts of the body are okay…so long as it is not T&A. Women can sell eggs. They can sell a kidney. They can sell their hair. They can sell blood and plasma. They can rent out their wombs as a surrogate…but law, heaven, and feminism forbid they rent out their c— (sigh, edit of the C word-RE) or sell a nude display of that body of theirs…”

Okay, rant over…I shall continue with activism tomorrow evening…

Posted in Sex

123 thoughts on We take a brief moment to rant on about terminology with regards to sex work…

  1. I don’t think I’ve used those terms when referring to sex workers, but I don’t believe I ever really considered how offensive it is, how inaccurate and how… unfair. I’ve made the point that anyone who provides a service is “selling themselves” as much as a sex worker is. Also, now that I think about it, it has an unpleasantly euphemistic ring to it, as though the speaker just can’t bear to sully his or mouth with the phrase “sex worker” (or whatever more offensive word they are probably thinking of, and OF COURSE it’s the worst thing to be). Gah.
    Insightful consideration of the language we use. Thanks for the post, Ren.

  2. “…I got to thinking about the terminology used by folks when discussing the business of sex work, namely the assertion that sex workers are “selling themselves”. I have decided not only do I dislike this phrasing, but it is inaccurate.

  3. “…I got to thinking about the terminology used by folks when discussing the business of sex work, namely the assertion that sex workers are “selling themselves”. I have decided not only do I dislike this phrasing, but it is inaccurate.

    I have to disagree. I think that this is a very accurate description. The problem is that the terminology only applies to sex worker. Every single person who works for a wage daily sells themselves out to the highest bidder. We don’t want to look at it that way because that would mean admitting the exploitation in the capitalist system, and further by reserving certain terminology for sex trade workers it works as a shaming mechanism. We dress it up and say that they we are selling our time or labor power, but to be real a worker loses most of her/his freedom the minute they begin to work for a wage. They need their physical bodies to perform whatever task that they are agreeing to to do. I really don’t see any difference in terms of what is for sale. Once someone contracts your services you do as you are told for a set amount of time and then you live…the same conditions apply, we have only chosen to stigmatize one kind of labor.

  4. Does the word selling only apply to stuff that you can own? Can you not sell a seat in a movie theatre, only rent it? Can you sell a ride on a bus or train?

    Are these just renting? Is our usual terminology for selling something incorrect in these circumstances, therefore making it wrong to say someone is selling their body?

    I understand the point you are making, but I don’t see how it can be incorrect to refer to sex work as selling.

  5. yeah I agree with Renee, it’s selling yourself regardless of which service it is. I can’t get behind your point. It’s obfuscating the real issue and that’s the social understanding of the difference in services.

  6. Lol this was a dumb post. Of course renting is a form of selling. renting is a subset of selling, just like turtle is a subset of animals.

    American Heritage Dictionary:
    1) To exchange or *deliver* for money or its equivalent.

    Even if the sex worker isn’t giving permanent ownership of his/her body, he/her is definitely selling a quantity of time, of which he/she only has a finite amount.

    I found this whole issue silly. Regardless of whether a masseuse describes her work as “selling” or “renting” his/her hands, I don’t think anyone is in any real doubt as to the rules of the transaction.

  7. To be precise, what prostitutes who are free agents* are selling is a time-limited right for a man to make use of their bodies to have sex – a man who doesn’t want to make himself sufficiently appealling so that someone will want to have sex with him.

    Men who don’t want sex to be a mutual pleasure create the market for prostitution: while obviously supporting any legislation or social change that makes this situation better for sex workers, I don’t, as a feminist, subscribe to the idea that prostitution is “just a service like any other” – it is very specifically a service that men create so that they won’t have to have any consideration for their partner’s desires when they have sex.

  8. *Free agents: It muddies the situation to focus exclusively on the minority of prostitutes and other sex workers who are not free agents, I agree. For the most part, in Europe and North America, most sex workers are women doing a shitty job because it pays better than anything else they can do. Legislation should protect both the people who choose to do this shitty job and the people who are being forced to do it.

  9. Jennifer- you buy the movie ticket, you just borrow the seat.

    Jesurgiclac- Huh…I’ll remember that next time I see one of the several women who hire me for pro-domme. And most? Hummm. Many, yes, most has not been proven…dispite what Farley says.

    Renee- I agree, we are ALL selling ourselves, we are ALL commodities, yet, no other job in the world is refered to in similar terms that sex work is refered to.

    My point is, people, just like there is a difference between a sex worker and a prostituted person? Just like, oh, I hope that the opinions of the actual people doing these jobs matters to those who are oh-so interested in their well being and feelings…..well, any sex worker I’ve ever spoken to is not real thrilled when someone uses the above discussed terminology- especially if they themselves are outside the industry. The opinions, oh, of the actual sex workers SHOULD matter on this issue as well, no?

  10. Janet- Well, I feel about as highly about your response as you do to the post. Sex workers are not bought and owned.

  11. yeah I agree with Renee, it’s selling yourself regardless of which service it is. I can’t get behind your point. It’s obfuscating the real issue and that’s the social understanding of the difference in services.

    The issue is that people don’t use the same words to describe any other kind of employment. So unless you are going to use the same terms to describe all other types of employment and try to get others to do the same, Ren’s point stands. You see, “you’re selling yourself” is an entire argument — or is supposed to be — against sex work. It’s a bad argument, and it’s an offensive one, which is Ren’s point, because it’s not how we treat every other job. The social understanding of the difference in services precisely accounts for this difference in terminology. Language matters, and it tells us a lot.

  12. Fucking ridiculous. If you are going to argue semantics, at least argue properly. Semiotics are an intensive part of the fight for women’s equality and you all should know that by now…(see, mankind, forced sex, etc.)

    A chauffeur, a seamstress, a massage therapist does not sell herself. She sells her services. Same as a sex worker. Stop trying to find an argument and think things through before you attack.

  13. I’m confused by this post because I’ve seen you state on your blog (I don’t have links but I could go digging for them I suppose if really necessary), that you believe that all people are commodities under the system of capitalism. Unless I’m mistaken, and I really don’t believe I am, that’s a damn near a direct quote. I agree that “renting” or “selling a service” is likely more accurate than “selling their bodies” or “selling themselves”…there just seems to be some contradiction in your feelings.

  14. Ren – so you wouldn’t say that you could sell a seat in a movie theatre? (just trying to clearly understand what you are saying)

  15. I’m confused by this post because I’ve seen you state on your blog (I don’t have links but I could go digging for them I suppose if really necessary), that you believe that all people are commodities under the system of capitalism. Unless I’m mistaken, and I really don’t believe I am, that’s a damn near a direct quote.

    Yes, it is. What Ren is saying is “why is it that we are all commodities under capitalism, but we only use this phrase ‘selling your body’ for what sex workers do?”

    I don’t think this is semantics at all. It’s not semantics because people “selling their bodies” or “selling themselves” gets used as an argument against sex work specifically. Very few aside from strict Marxists consistently use “selling themselves” to describe all labor.

  16. Maybe we shouldn’t be comparing women to inanimate objects at all?

    Again, Ren’s point was — assuming that I’ve read the post correctly, and I feel that I have — that the language is both incorrect and wildly different from how we refer to anything else done for money. If I sell a piece of writing, no one accuses me of “selling my mind” or “selling myself.” No one. When I worked as a cashier, I just had a crappy job — I wasn’t “selling my body.” We’re not talking about movie theaters, we’re talking about the selling of services, which all of us who work or have worked have done at some point. We sell objects — like the movie ticket — and we sell services. And if people want to argue that we’re all selling ourselves, then fine — but they’re going to have to regularly use that language to refer to all employment in order to back up the argument that it’s okay to use those words when referring to sex work.

  17. @Cara actually some people do use the term selling oneself when it comes to labor. It may not be the mainstream way of discussing this issue, but it has been termed that way. Some refer to any kind of labor exchange as slavery regardless of remittance. This is in part why Marx calls for the dictatorship of the proletariat…every exchange is exploitation. By saying this I am of course going to acknowledge the shaming that is directed at sex trade workers as a way to differentiate labor, however I basically see this as a labor issue as every exchange is occurring within a capitalist money market economy. That people see a difference is not the fault of the sex trade worker, it is that they have blinded to what labor actually means.

  18. The other point that people are wildly missing is that Ren, a sex worker herself, is saying “Please stop referring to me in a way I find demeaning and disrespectful” and you’re all arguing about whether the word is accurate or not.

    Let me get this straight, then: It would be appropriate for someone to respond to “please don’t call me ‘lezbo,’ that term for lesbians is insulting and demeaning” with “well, it’s an accurate description, isn’t it?”

  19. “Yes, it is. What Ren is saying is “why is it that we are all commodities under capitalism, but we only use this phrase ’selling your body’ for what sex workers do?””

    Yea, see it’s conversations like this that remind me why I’m anti-capitalist.

  20. For a moment – let’s think of this from the other side. A person who is using the services of a sex worker is not buying her except under extreme circumstances. The women who are, in fact, bought and sold deserve to have their stories not be compared with a woman who is selling her services.

  21. indeed, i do think we are all commoditites and sell ourselves in some manner, yet, when was the last time you saw someone telling an accountant they were selling themselves?

    the term is used for sexworkers almost exclusively, and I find it insulting as it implies sex workers are some how lesser human beings.

  22. RenegadeEvolution: Jesurgiclac- Huh…I’ll remember that next time I see one of the several women who hire me for pro-domme

    Renegade, it’s my understanding of pro-domme sex work that most pro-dommes are sex workers rather than prostitutes. (If I’m using the terminology incorrectly, excuse me.) And while there exist female punters, RE, the market for prostitution and for most sex work is inarguably created and maintained by men who do not choose to have sex be a mutually pleasurable experience.

    My definition is: prostitutes are sex workers who provide the use of their bodies for partner sex. Other sex work – lap-dancing, stripping, pro-domme, telephone sex – does not involve the sex worker providing her body for sexual use, but providing the fantasy that the customer wants for orgasm.

    My impression of pro-domme work is that it in general has no more to do with what turns a sadistic or Dominant woman on than any other sex work might have.

  23. @Ren exactly sex workers are not lesser beings I firmly believe in the equality of it all. It is not my intention to be disrespectful in any way what so ever. I personally believe what we need to do is educate people about labor so that they understand what is implied by exchange. The term selling of ones body needs to be applied to all and not used as a shaming tactic against sex trade workers. When we can understand that each person daily does this when they report to work I believe that there will be an increase in equality. It is the idea of constructed difference that I am trying to point out. I don’t believe that there is a difference between the accountant, doctor, waitress or sex trade worker. All are working within the same economy. All are selling themselves for subsistence.
    I will however repeat that the idea that term selling oneself as only applying to sex trade workers is false. Within Marxist circles this is regularly used to applyto all labor exchange. This division of labor is fractious to all members of the proletariat. Therefore the idea that we stigmatize one kind of labor and exalt another only serves the ruling elite in that we do not come together in solidarity. It is the same sort of tactic that is seen in the whole illegal immigrants are stealing your jobs. Rather than realizing the commonality that the average worker has with the so-called illegal worker we demonize. What we need to do is embrace the idea this term of selling ourselves applies to all to increase solidarity. There is no difference between us other than that which we create and such construction does not serve us, it serves those that seek to keep us all under the yolk of oppression.

  24. I have to quarrel with the term “commodities”. People have a wide range of skills and do not really have the characteristics of interchangable frozen hog bellies, corn or light sweet crude.

    To be sure, when one hires someone to preform work, one tends to set a certain minimum standard. However, it is most often the case that the worker can show they are worth more, i.e. that they are proprietors of a particularly useful (to the hiring agent) skills matrix. Piecework is the most basic demonstration of this. Medical specialist quite a bit fancier.

    I would be hard pressed to hire a Ren-Equivalent, if I were in the market. I’m pretty sure I couldn’t find them on the Chicago Board of Trade.

  25. Nailed it.

    Nicely done, Ren. They’re selling a service. Its a simple as that. You’re right, obviously there’s a cultural and linguistic narrative that dehumanizes sex workers.

  26. Thanks, Ren, I’ve been waiting for this to be brought up! At last!

    What irks me about the phrase “selling yourself” is that it implies that the worker has no respect for her body, or low self esteem, or is desperate and can’t relate to others without degrading herself, or thinks she has no worth beyond her body,etc…

    And of course, our genitals/sexual services are not the same things as “ourselves.” How simplistic, insulting, and anti-feminist.

  27. I’m definitely irritated when people who are outside the sex industry use the term “selling themselves.”

    The dilemma I have is that I work with teens in the sex trade and they often use the phrase to describe their involvement in escort, dancing, the guy down the block who makes porn videos, and all the different ways youth can be involved in trading sex or sexual stuff for money. It’s not a term I feel comfortable using but I think it’s important to hear and recognize that’s how some people in the sex trade feel about the experience.

    But then the youth don’t see themselves as sex workers either (or prostitutes or prostituted or any of those terms). So maybe it’s more about those folks who self-identify as sex workers.

  28. I agree with what you stated clearly in this post and again, thank you.

    BTW in Will Smiths world, he is known as the brand, the commodity. Those who work in his business understand that selling him secures his career. that’s how they look at it over at the Smith’s office.
    Of course, most people don’t have the same distaste for “selling oneself” (and family) in the mainstream film industry.

  29. Brilliant post, Ren. I’ve hated “selling your body” for quite some time as well. I started complaining about it when I was working as a janitor and cleaning carpets. While I wasn’t exactly respected for what I did, I wasn’t ever told I was selling my body either. Yeah, well, tell that to my back! How is it considered honest work to “sell” my back, but a woman who “sells” her body is devaluing herself? Like you said, “what’s between their legs… automatically equates in the minds of many to their dignity, their intimacy, their self-respect, their souls.” Well, there wasn’t much dignity in cleaning feces off a floor, and oftentimes there’s little dignity in doing things just because you’re getting paid when you wouldn’t have done them otherwise. Using separate language for only one form of work is a way to diminish those people who do it, just like telling someone they “only” do manual labor is diminishing them.

  30. I’ve always hated the “selling bodies” thing myself. Another word I can’t stand is “womb”. I really hate the magicky, holy woo-woo sound of it. It’s a uterus, thank you. When we start dividing body parts into things that have “magicky” status- womb(uterus), birth canal(vagina),mind(brain), member (penis), etc.- and things that don’t, like liver, kidney, pancreas, it irritates me. Anything that has to do with “sex” or “soul” seem to be magicky, while a spleen is just a spleen. That’s dangerous thinking, and it needs to be ended.

  31. I had a friend who worked in the business. And within their community, the term they self-identified with was “provider”. Which is, in reality, what they do – they provide sexual services.

    I always thought that was a good term, and much less dehumanizing than call girl, prostitute, or whore.

  32. It might be true that a sex worker isn’t selling “herself”, but a john is sure buying it in many, probably most cases. Buying the opportunity to “own” someone for a short period of time. I think your series is interesting, but why do we focus on the motivations of sex workers to the exclusion of those really driving the market? It smacks of the same old belief that women can endlessly be changed and molded, but men are immoveable. I’d love to see some discussion of the behaviors and entitlements of men who seek out prostitutes, especially a dismantling of the myth that they’re wholesome, sweet men who just can’t get laid.

  33. the term is used for sexworkers almost exclusively, and I find it insulting as it implies sex workers are some how lesser human beings.

    Absolutely. But what if this reflects how those who create the demand actually feel?

  34. I apply the ‘you can take this job and shove it’ criteria. any job you can walk away from when they push you past your tolerance is voluntary. if you can’t quit for any reason then your libery is compromised. if you are physically restrained or blackmailed into continuing the work you are kidnapped and the perps who did it should be in jail.

  35. sheesh whats so hard to get…about paying for services. you dont order a prostitute to do anything, you ask, and offer some payment, and he/she decides…it aint like going into walmart and buying a head of lettuce. and sure there are some guys/gals that might not be the cutest people in the world but mostly, they are you, your neighbors, your family, your friends, not some weird dangerous and disgusting *others*. they just have some money and they want something specific that excites them…and always, unless someone is the subject of abuse or coercion, there is a negotiation of lap-dance or touch or fuck or blow-job or ass-whacking…negotiation. negotiation involving equals.

    owing? just ask a john what they own in a sexual negotiation.

  36. Amanda, I hear you, great points.

    ninja nurse – that’s a good way to put it…I’d be really interested to know how many sex workers are in the industry voluntarily vs. not voluntarily. As I mentioned in another thread, I seriously think economically coerced workers are the majority. (Not talking about trafficked/enslaved people…I mean “free” adults who do sex work to get their basic needs met)

    And while Ren’s voice and the voices of other voluntary sex workers are important, I don’t think feminists should lose sight of the thousands of women who aren’t so lucky.

  37. I’d love to see some discussion of the behaviors and entitlements of men who seek out prostitutes, especially a dismantling of the myth that they’re wholesome, sweet men who just can’t get laid.

    Maybe they’re horny, single guys who want to have sex now? As opposed to a week or two from now, when they’ve cultivated that kind of intimacy with a woman?

    I mean, I’m sure quite a few of them are assholes who couldn’t possibly convince a woman to willingly have sex with them. And no small number of them are individuals with legitimate hang-ups about social interactions with the opposite sex, such that they’re just not currently capable of forming a stable relationship with a woman.

    And some of them probably don’t have the foggiest notion how to pick up a girl at the bar, or whatever. I know I don’t.

    I don’t know where the entitlement comes in, I guess. If someone is offering a service, surely one is entitled to purchase it if they want (subject to reasonable refusal of service conditions)?

  38. I don’t think feminists should lose sight of the thousands of women who aren’t so lucky.

    I don’t understand why prostitution should be the only job that we insist only the independently-well-off are allowed to do. (That and politics, I guess.)

    Isn’t any job coercive if you need the money?

  39. Amanda & jesurgislac – exactly.
    “Selling themselves” etc. is probably how most of the johns feel.
    They don’t exactly frickin’ respect the sex worker as a human being.

    The demand – as jesurgislac said – is created precisely because men see themselves as entitled to sex with non-human receptacles.

    Some sex workers can kid themselves that the johns do in fact see them as full human beings and respect them…in reality, that is not so at least for the majority of sex workers. It may be nice in your little enclave but society sees sex workers as contemptible and until that changes, sex workers are only upholding that by doing sex work, however much they kid themselves they aren’t. Which brings me to…

    Alicepaul, also a good point.

    Look Ren – I’m very happy you enjoy your work, really, I am. But you should think about the vast majority of women in that line of work who are not so lucky. Who can’t pick and choose customers, don’t make loads of money (real anti-capitalist, way to go!) and really don’t enjoy it. Yep most of them. Statistics show circa 90% of prostitutes want to get out of it.
    Why don’t you care about this? It’s all very well complaining on the Internet about the language that is used, but what are you doing to actually improve the conditions for your fellow sex workers?
    Average age of entry to the profession is about FOURTEEN – most are drug addicts, many are forced into it.
    Clue: bigging up how wonderful and empowerful sex work is, isn’t helping.

  40. I apply the ‘you can take this job and shove it’ criteria. any job you can walk away from when they push you past your tolerance is voluntary. if you can’t quit for any reason then your libery is compromised. if you are physically restrained or blackmailed into continuing the work you are kidnapped and the perps who did it should be in jail.

    Does that mean that when I faced this situation as a cleaner that I was kidnapped by a combination of my employer and the British Government? In British law, you can’t quit any job at all unless you have independent means of supporting yourself until you find another job, because you won’t have any money to keep a roof over your head.

    A lot of people in low/minimum wage jobs surely face a similar situation.

    @ Renee: strictly speaking the Marxist position is that workers sell their labour time, which is then utilised by the capitalist to produce more value than the value of the labour time – “selling themsleves” is still inaccurate, even in Marx’s terms.

    @ Amanda: it seems to me that if a customer misunderstands the nature of the transaction, that doesn’t mean we should accept their misunderstanding as the “correct” definition, but rather, we should seek to make it clearer to them what the transaction actually is. This is one reason why decriminalisation (and good exit options, too) is so important: it gives the sex worker the ability to use the law to set boundaries, and to negotiate her limits properly. Tying into ninjanurse’s comment, decriminalisation combined with efforts to ensure that every sex worker can walk away without problems (things that have been put into place in NZ, as I understand the situation there) go a long way to making it clear to customers that they are buying a service and not a body.

  41. “Buying the opportunity to “own” someone for a short period of time.”

    Interestingly, my boss said to me just the other week that “they” can scream at me any time they feel like, because that is why I get paid the “big bucks.” And also that I’m not “allowed” to go home before 7pm. And he still emails me at 3am and will scream if I do not respond to those emails within a timely fashion.

    I’m pretty damn sure he feels like he owns me and the only thing he uses is my brain.

  42. @ Snowdropexplodes “In British law, you can’t quit any job at all unless you have independent means of supporting yourself until you find another job, because you won’t have any money to keep a roof over your head.”

    This is incorrect for in the UK if you quit a job (under any circumstance) then you are still entitled to ‘income support’ benefit. This automatically triggers housing benefit and council tax payments. So admittedly it is a meager benefit but it will still pay for rent / council tax and awards you £48:00 per week for subsistence.

  43. Amanda- Well, you know, you are free to discuss that side of things as much as you like. I am choosing not to. What do I know about why men go to strip clubs, watch porn, hire women to fuck them? Well, more that a lot of folk really, but that’s not what I’m writing about here…

    Alicepaul-

    “And while Ren’s voice and the voices of other voluntary sex workers are important, I don’t think feminists should lose sight of the thousands of women who aren’t so lucky.”

    I agree. You think they’d be bent out at me for suggesting they be refered to using more humanistic terminology, have access to condoms and safer working conditions, have more transitioning out opportunities and assistance, and not be criminals? Seeing as I work with those Women (and yes, men too) who feminists shouldn’t loose site of quite often in my work with SWOP, ect., and every single one of them has thought those things were good…well, I’ll take their word on it.

  44. Butterflywings:

    “Amanda & jesurgislac – exactly.

    “Selling themselves” etc. is probably how most of the johns feel.
    They don’t exactly frickin’ respect the sex worker as a human being.”

    And thus, we should all go by that opinion? How humanizing and helpful.

    “The demand – as jesurgislac said – is created precisely because men see themselves as entitled to sex with non-human receptacles.”

    Some do indeed, never said otherwise.

    “Some sex workers can kid themselves that the johns do in fact see them as full human beings and respect them…in reality, that is not so at least for the majority of sex workers. It may be nice in your little enclave but society sees sex workers as contemptible and until that changes, sex workers are only upholding that by doing sex work, however much they kid themselves they aren’t. Which brings me to…”

    You think I don’t fucking know how contemptible a mass section of society sees sex workers? Riiight. I feel the contempt all the way over here, really.

    “Alicepaul, also a good point.

    Look Ren – I’m very happy you enjoy your work, really, I am. But you should think about the vast majority of women in that line of work who are not so lucky. Who can’t pick and choose customers, don’t make loads of money (real anti-capitalist, way to go!) and really don’t enjoy it. Yep most of them. Statistics show circa 90% of prostitutes want to get out of it.”

    Yes, I can tell you are thrilled. And gee, are you asking me to show you my creds? As if I never think about the other women in the line of work who aren’t so lucky? Well, shit, why have I been writing any of this it all here this week, because I don’t give a fuck, right? Why did I go to Chicago, why do I work with SWOP, why do I donate time & money to sex workers outreach and rights organizations…oh, right, because I don’t care about those women! And if you think I pick and choose all my customers, you are right out of your mind. 90% according to Farely, whose work was never intended to be applied to ALL women in ALL aspects of the sex industry…but lookie here, it’s being applied just like that again.

    Oh, and I never claimed to be an anti-capitalist did I?

    ”Why don’t you care about this? It’s all very well complaining on the Internet about the language that is used, but what are you doing to actually improve the conditions for your fellow sex workers?”

    I just told you, now, what the fuck are YOU doing? Show me YOUR creds!

    ”Average age of entry to the profession is about FOURTEEN – most are drug addicts, many are forced into it.”

    So sayeth St. Farley, for the whole of the biz, amen, let their be no questions or dissent.

    ”Clue: bigging up how wonderful and empowerful sex work is, isn’t helping.”

    And where did I ever say, for all, that it was? For me, maybe…but I triple dog dare you to point out where I ever said sex work was wonderful and helpful for ALL, or even MOST of the people involved in it, or even to tribe women as a whole? Guess what, you can’t, because I’ve never said as much.

    Now, what have you done for people in the sex biz lately, aside from act like an ass to them, as you just did here, with me??? Creds. Let’s see ‘em, now. Mine are established. All the way to Australia and New Zealand, even.

  45. Amanda: What the fuck? You run a major feminist blog, and yet you don’t get how RUDE it is to come over to another major feminist blog and say to the guest blogger, “This isn’t what you should be writing about! Why don’t you write about this instead?” You know, if there’s one thing I’ve learned from reading Ren’s blog, it’s this: When I don’t have any personal experience as a member of a marginalized community and I start to feel the urge to tell a member of said community that they’re DOIN’ IT RONG–It’s usually just better to shut the fuck up and listen.

  46. but why do we focus on the motivations of sex workers to the exclusion of those really driving the market?

    Because we want to focus on the women’s issues instead of men’s? (AGAIN)

    I don’t care if men get laid, or don’t, or think they can’t, or can, or whatever it is. I am tired of hearing about men’s interests, men’s concerns, men’s feelings, men men men. They run the world. That’s all we hear about.

    I like to focus on the women in any given situation, that’s why I am a feminist.

  47. Topic is the terminology folks use to dehumanize, I men describe, sex workers. Why are folks talking about why some sex workers/prostituted people get into the biz, why johns may visit sex workers, demanding Ren show us her creds (wtf, have you read anything she’s written?), and other off-topic straw-arguments?

    On topic: Personally, I try to be respectful with my language. therefore, I listen to what sex workers say about themselves.
    I also distrust the words of those paid to present certain viewpoints; even if those payments come from grants and book deals.
    “Selling yourself” is a completely degrading way to refer to sex work. I’m surprised feminists need to be told that it is anti-feminist to imply that all of a person’s, especially a woman’s, worth and personhood is located in their genitals and/or sexual purity.

  48. Renee: Ren did not write a post debating the possible merits and downfalls w/r/t using Marxist rhetoric in referencing one’s labor. Why are you derailing her thread? Her post is about how the phrase “selling oneself” is used to demean sex workers and diminish their agency.

  49. Daisy–Good point! Amanda Marcotte coming over to a feminist blog and asked, “What about the menz?” Funny that.

  50. Hey, so I haven’t been following this comment thread very carefully, but now that I’ve taken a peek I need to say that some of them are getting into unacceptable territory. Demanding that Ren produce credentials? Ren’s credentials are well known, and if you don’t know them that’s your own fault and problem, and it seems pretty basic that one should check their facts before launching ad hominem attacks. Oh, and that’s right ad hominem attacks are not allowed on this blog. There are no exceptions to this rule.

    Got it? Not hard. No, I’m not being nice, because we’ve gone over this 40,000 times and I’m sick of it. You want to attack Ren (or any other blogger here) rather than actually engage her arguments? You’re going to have to find another place to do it.

  51. Maybe OT drift, but

    >Butterflywings says:

    >Amanda & jesurgislac – exactly.
    >“Selling themselves” etc. is probably how most of the johns feel. They don’t exactly frickin’ respect the sex worker as a human being.

    >The demand – as jesurgislac said – is created precisely because men see themselves as entitled to sex with non-human receptacles.

    Like in any other business some customers do and some do not respect the people on the other side of the table. Also, some do and some do not feel a sense of entitlement to the others goods and services.

    Do “men” feel entitled to “non-human receptacles” as a group? If you mean their hand, sure. Most women feel the same sense of entitlement to a “non-human receptacle” as well. It’s call masturbation and it’s fun and healthy for all.

    Do they feel entitled to “not-really-non-human receptacles”? Some, I am sure. Most, not really. The whole purpose of seeking a human is for the sense of connection of some kind. Dehumanizing someone is less likely to create that. Besides, paying for domination sort of undermines the sense of power. I mean a REAL dominator wouldn’t have to pay, now would they? Partners would just flock to their feet.

    Not that I have seen among my peers.

  52. The whole “what about the men” thing is a bit odd to me. In most feminist discussions, asking people to think about the men is considered a red herring.

    It makes sense when the subject is rape, but sex work is more of a gray area. I don’t know about the motivations of most patrons of the sex industry, but it is pretty clear to me that the status quo as far as the workers go is not so great in many areas, and thus I think it makes more sense to focus on how things can be made better for the workers, whether that means changing the language, the laws, supporting attempts to organize, or helping them get the heck out. I also suspect that the process of doing these things can help change sexist attitudes by bringing it to the attention of the public and insisting that sex workers/prostituted women are still human beings who deserve human rights and to have their voices heard, regardless of why they are in the industry.

    I think this is another issue where saying “what about the men?” every single time it is brought up stifles the discussion that should be happening.

    I also think that the posters on this thread who are telling Ren to “think about the less fortunate women” are ignoring a heck of a lot of things that she has said in past writings. I suppose one cannot be expected to read everything a person has written before responding to them, but no one who is familiar with her blog could possibly accuse her of ignoring these issues. I wish that once in a while the feuding sides could get past the stereotyping are get to the areas of actual disagreement.

  53. This is not really a comment on the individual post.
    But the great part about Web 2.0 is I can directly thank somebody for what they wrote.
    So thanks Ren for a really interesting series of posts about sex work. I appreciate it, and I learned a lot, and you helped elucidate the various facets of the sex industry that I think I was aware of in my head, but had not seen it written in print as thoroughly as you have.

  54. Ren, thanks for such a great post. It reminds me why I firmly believe that people are not the sum of their jobs. We are all people worth of respect and should demand it. I love that you point this out from your POV. Looking forward to more.

  55. @ PaulG: Be that as it may, it certainly wasn’t the advice that I was given by the Job Centre. I was told that in order to be eligible for income support or JSA, I would have to be fired from the job. Also: according to the letters I receive informing me of the amount of my JSA, the “amount I need to live” is £60.50 per week, so £48.00 looks awfully slim to me (and would, indeed, not be enough for me to get by).

  56. You float like a butterfly, Butterflywings! And stink like a troll! Honestly, it seems like 90% of these discussions simply cannot happen without someone barging in and demanding that the “happy hooker” (who’s at best deluded, at worst a ruthless jerk who drinks the blood of other women for breakfast) show everyone her creds for the umpteenth or so time. And then everyone wonders “but why is that Renegade Evolution so angreee???”

    Amanda & anyone else interested in the perspective of the johns,

    I’ve published one interview, and will soon be publishing more.

    The guys in question aren’t cuddly little teddy bears, but neither are they evil monsters. And if you want to discuss them, I’m happy to have you do it at my blog, so this thread isn’t derailed.

  57. Natalia: it seems like 90% of these discussions simply cannot happen without someone barging in and demanding that the “happy hooker” (who’s at best deluded, at worst a ruthless jerk who drinks the blood of other women for breakfast) show everyone her creds for the umpteenth or so time.

    It seems like 100% of these discussions simply cannot happen without at least someone barging in and demanding (Chet, upthread) that women accept that men are entitled to sex when they want it and a man who wants to have sex with a woman and is prepared to pay shouldn’t have to wait till he can find a woman who wants to have sex with him.

    It also seems like 100% of these discussions simply cannot happen without several people arguing that the provision of partner sex to someone who does not want partner sex to be a mutually-enjoyable experience (see: Chet, again) is just “a service, like any other” and no different from being a janitor or a waiter.

  58. Christ…

    Deep breath, everyone, deep breath. Yes, if you question my creds and spit utter bs at me, I will get harsh in return. No question…

    however, as for what about the men? You know, I’m here for a whole ‘nother week…maybe I will address it, maybe I won’t.

    Maybe I will discuss attitudes that various people have towards sex work (is it a service, is it not), but I highly doubt it because that is so specific to each person in and out of the sex industry, it seems futile.

    But I still say using (in, out, or around a Marxist context or not) the use of dehumanizing…and well, basically snot ass superior language towards those in the sex industry, especially by those who have never been in it…well…

    it sucks eggs.

  59. It seems like 100% of these discussions simply cannot happen without at least someone barging in and demanding (Chet, upthread) that women accept that men are entitled to sex when they want it and a man who wants to have sex with a woman and is prepared to pay shouldn’t have to wait till he can find a woman who wants to have sex with him.

    I’m trying to find where this was asserted. Ren’s dealing with the reality that sex workers exist and talking about how to improve conditions for them and help get them out of sex work if that’s what they want.

    Where does defending men’s sense of entitlement come into this, and why is it more important to discuss the reasons men pay for sex than to discuss the women who are doing the work?

  60. It seems like 100% of these discussions simply cannot happen without at least someone barging in and demanding (Chet, upthread) that women accept that men are entitled to sex when they want it and a man who wants to have sex with a woman and is prepared to pay shouldn’t have to wait till he can find a woman who wants to have sex with him.

    Your lack of reading comprehension is showing Jesurgislac…

    And before you say it, “Maybe they’re horny, single guys who want to have sex now? As opposed to a week or two from now, when they’ve cultivated that kind of intimacy with a woman? =/= saying that men are, and should be, entitled to sex whenever they want. kthnx

  61. On reading your post I have to wonder if the “selling yourself” language contributes to/represents the thought pattern that allows johns to rape and abuse prostitutes. If you’ve sold yourself you can’t set boundaries.

    Based on that I don’t even like the “renting” language– after all, people tend to abuse rented property much more than property they’ve bought. You’re not renting out your body/your vagina, the way I see it. It’s not like you allow the john to do ANYTHING with it. I guess it’s the passivity of the language that is problematic. You’re performing a service, same as workers anywhere, not renting or selling yourself or your body parts.

  62. Maybe I will discuss attitudes that various people have towards sex work (is it a service, is it not), but I highly doubt it because that is so specific to each person in and out of the sex industry, it seems futile.

    Discussing why so many men regard sex as something they’re entitled to, which they can buy if they can’t find someone who wants to have sex with them, is “futile”?

    But I still say using (in, out, or around a Marxist context or not) the use of dehumanizing…and well, basically snot ass superior language towards those in the sex industry, especially by those who have never been in it…well…

    Well, I agree, actually, and if I’ve ever used “sell their bodies” in the past, I’ll quit. (Are you okay with “sell the sexual use of their bodies”?)

  63. Ren, thank you. The “selling her body” thing has been one of the things about the prohibitionist discourse that makes it so problematic. Nobody can argue that selling bodies is good. But you are right that selling bodies is not what prostitution is about.

    Jesurgislac asks about using “sell the sexual use of their bodies” and I would say even that isn’t quite it. Selling sex, or selling sexual services much more accurately describes prostitution. To say “selling the sexual use of” makes it sound like the prostitute simply lies down and lets the client do what he (or she) wants. I don’t know many prostitutes who would say that describes what they do. They actually work much harder than that, and to say “selling the sexual use of their bodies” may not dehumanize them in the way that “selling their bodies” does, but it certainly undermines any understanding of the amount of labor that goes into the doing of prostitution.

    I have always advocated for language that is as accurate and descriptive as possible. To describe the prostitution transaction, I can’t think of much that is more clear than “selling sex” .
    In solidarity,
    Elizabeth

  64. Jesurgislac,

    Well, I agree, actually, and if I’ve ever used “sell their bodies” in the past, I’ll quit. (Are you okay with “sell the sexual use of their bodies”?)

    Only if you refer to lawyers as selling the mental use of their bodies; word processors as selling the mental and physical use of their bodies; and construction workers as selling the physical and mental use of their bodies.

    Oh and you might want to say “sell the mental, physical and sexual use of their bodies” since I’m pretty damn sure you also have to think and physically exert yourself.

    But acknowledging that about sex workers would require you to show them some respect and consideration…which seems to be your major problem.

  65. Discussing why so many men regard sex as something they’re entitled to, which they can buy if they can’t find someone who wants to have sex with them, is “futile”?

    It certainly isn’t something on topic for this thread.

    I’m kind of failing to see what the phenomenon of men feeling they have the right to buy sex has *anything* to do with the terminology of “selling your bodies” as applied to sex workers. I mean, *I* feel I have the right to find someone who I can pay to mow my lawn if I don’t want to do it myself, but is the person who mows my lawn “selling his body” because it takes his physical labor to do the work?

    Bringing up the attitudes men have toward their right to buy the services of sex workers in a thread about why it’s disrespectful for people in general to call buying the service of a sex worker “buying the sex worker” or “buying the sex worker’s body” is a derailment that tries to bring it back to “But sex work is BAD, mmkay?” which is not the point Ren is trying to make.

  66. It might be true that a sex worker isn’t selling “herself”, but a john is sure buying it in many, probably most cases. Buying the opportunity to “own” someone for a short period of time.

    Okay, so this is going to sound snarky, and maybe I am being a tad snarky to be honest, but, well… if someone is really looking for the feeling of ownership, rather than sexual pleasure, why not hire a pro submissive instead of a prostitute?

    I don’t doubt that in many johns’ minds buying a woman’s services IS linked to feelings of possession. I just find it difficult to believe that has to be what’s going through every john’s head. What about “I just want a BJ, no strings attached, today?” or “My wife won’t X, maybe I should go head over to where some women are selling it?” (Note that I strongly disapprove of this second behavior if the wife doesn’t know about it — but it does go on, and while I think someone who does this is behaving badly, I do NOT think someone who does this is NECESSARILY after a dominance-high.)

  67. I don’t care if men get laid, or don’t, or think they can’t, or can, or whatever it is. I am tired of hearing about men’s interests, men’s concerns, men’s feelings, men men men. They run the world. That’s all we hear about.

    Daisy,

    I officially love you now, even more than I already did.

  68. Jesurgislac asks about using “sell the sexual use of their bodies” and I would say even that isn’t quite it. Selling sex, or selling sexual services much more accurately describes prostitution. To say “selling the sexual use of” makes it sound like the prostitute simply lies down and lets the client do what he (or she) wants. I don’t know many prostitutes who would say that describes what they do.

    Yeah, that. I don’t know people in the sex industry well enough to know this, but I imagine that if I (or some guy, so as not to overcomplicate matters) walked into a brothel and flashed money at someone and said “My stipulation is I just want to use your body. Lie there and act dead.” I might well get “That’s creepy, hell no” as a response.

  69. “And before you say it, “Maybe they’re horny, single guys who want to have sex now? As opposed to a week or two from now, when they’ve cultivated that kind of intimacy with a woman? =/= saying that men are, and should be, entitled to sex whenever they want. kthnx”

    I wasn’t going to contribute to thread drift, but since everyone else seems to be doing it…

    Actually, what Chet said does absolutely = men are, and should be, entitled to sex whenever they want. He’s literally saying that if men can’t find consensual sex elsewhere, they are entitled to buy it. How exactly is that not literally arguing that men are not entitled to sex at anytime?

  70. Hello all! This is my first post on feministe, though I’m a pretty regular reader. Ren, I want to thank you, as a feminist who has dabbled in several areas of sex work, for all your wonderful posts here. I’ll certainly be checking in on your blog often from now on! I’ve seen little talk about sex work in the feminist arena that takes it to such a deeper level.

    The “selling yourself” rhetoric is something that has .,bothered me for a long time, along with the “how could you SHARE your spouse like that?!” (I also happen to be in a committed domestic partnership).

    Number one, you cannot sell or sh, are someTHING unless it is, indeed, a THING. A thing is an inanimate object (and before someone brings up the buying and selling of animals — yes, we often treat animals as objects. I’m not here to argue whether that’s right or wrong nor make any claims as to whether or not I have or do treat or consider animals as objects). But the only way to sell or share a human being is for that human to be your slave — your property, and therefore, an object. I find it deeply offensive when someone suggests that I’m an object, no matter if the person is a john, a baptist preacher, or a feminist.

    I’ve had people say, “Well, you’re making yourself into an object by doing that. Because you know that ‘they‘ [we] think of you that way, and you‘re accepting that.” This stinks of classic victim blaming (I’m not referring to sex workers — people who voluntarily exchange sexual service for money — as victims. I’m referring to people who are treated like objects as victims of objectification). If a john were to consider me an object that would be his/her problem, his/her fault, just like if a man were to rape me, it would be HIS fault, not mine for wearing a short skirt. I agree that anyone treated as an object should (and should be given the opportunity to) remove themselves from being treated that way. And almost any time someone in the industry has sent that energy my way, I’ve shown them the door very quickly. It’s actually much harder to call out someone OUTSIDE the industry on treating me as an object. When someone says “You’re selling yourself, you shouldn‘t do that,” they’re treating me as though I’m someTHING to be sold, not a full human being, and the conversation ends there, because how could you have a conversation with an object? Unlike at the strip club, I can’t simply walk away from the table and chose to never see that person again. More likely, it‘s someone in my family or community who I have to face again and again and endure this denigration, without ever being able to convince them that it hurts me. And, yes, as people have pointed out, unfortunately, not all sex workers have that option in their jobs, whether because of financial need, coercion, or some other reason. Unfortunately, they have to put up with being treated that way on the outside and the inside of their work. This isn’t an argument to continue the language, rather it’s an argument to STOP TREATING SEX WORKERS AS OBJECTS. Period.

    Again, Ren, thank you so much for this post. I find it astounding that any feminist reader could argue that this language isn’t objectifying, or that language doesn’t shape thoughts and actions. It’s hard for me to see how far I have to go to convince most people that I’m a human, but it’s so validating and inspirational to hear you singing it from the feministe rooftops!

  71. Thought provoking post, Ren. It made me realise I need to edit one of the posts I have in the works. I touched upon a branch of the issue without actually realising how dehumanizing “seeling their bodies” actually sounds.

    Thanks for a great post.

  72. J:

    “Discussing why so many men regard sex as something they’re entitled to, which they can buy if they can’t find someone who wants to have sex with them, is “futile”? ”

    i meant on the part of the seller. Once again, not focuses on the men (or customers) here. I mean, what I ACTUALLY said was this: “Maybe I will discuss attitudes that various people have towards sex work (is it a service, is it not), but I highly doubt it because that is so specific to each person in and out of the sex industry, it seems futile.” Some sex workers see it as merely a service, others do not, and everything else in between, and because there are so many different takes on THAT, I feel discussing it is not necessary.

  73. He’s literally saying that if men can’t find consensual sex elsewhere, they are entitled to buy it. How exactly is that not literally arguing that men are not entitled to sex at anytime?

    Because the way it’s being qualified is that men are entitled to buy those services. The statement “men are entitled to sex at any time” to me, would mean men are entitled take sex at any time not only from those selling a sexual service, but also in the form of sexual assault and rape.

  74. Elizabeth Woods: Selling sex, or selling sexual services much more accurately describes prostitution.

    All sex workers sell sexual services. The specific sexual service that a prostitute sells is the right for a punter to make use of her body.

    Ren: i meant on the part of the seller. Once again, not focuses on the men (or customers) here.

    Fair enough. But in that case, it’s comments such as Chet’s and Esra’s that should be disemvowelled…

    Esra: Because the way it’s being qualified is that men are entitled to buy those services.

    Why should men feel entitled to buy the right to make use of a woman’s body, rather than trying to make themselves attractive enough that a woman will want to have sex with them? Ren’s point, to discuss sex work from the POV of the sex worker rather than the punter, is valid – and I certainly don’t argue that a sex worker is doing something morally wrong. But the punter is. The punter is choosing not to have sex with someone with whom it is a mutually pleasurable experience: is choosing to substitute the power of money for sexual attraction. People who make use of sex workers for sexual release think that they are entitled to sex, even if they can’t find anyone who wants to have sex with them.

  75. This is a reply to an OT post, but ….

    Neko Onna says:

    “August 23rd, 2008 at 3:24 pm – Edit

    I’ve always hated the “selling bodies” thing myself. Another word I can’t stand is “womb”. I really hate the magicky, holy woo-woo sound of it. It’s a uterus, thank you. When we start dividing body parts into things that have “magicky” status- womb(uterus), birth canal(vagina),mind(brain), member (penis), etc.- and things that don’t, like liver, kidney, pancreas, it irritates me. Anything that has to do with “sex” or “soul” seem to be magicky, while a spleen is just a spleen. That’s dangerous thinking, and it needs to be ended. ”

    Not being snarky, just giving my p.o.v. I’m posting because I’d really be interested in hearing the other side of the coin on this. I don’t understand why “womb” is offensive. I understand being put off by society’s expectation that all women should have a certain feeling about certain body parts, and I’d encourage anyone to describe their body parts in ways that reflect their personal experience. I, personally, DO have a magicky, holy woo-woo feeling about my womb/uterus, which has housed life twice. I like to use language that reflects that feeling. I also prefer words that don’t reflect the medical industry’s colonialization of my body. The word vagina comes from Latin. It means a sheath (for a sword, get it?). I don’t like the word at all. I don’t like my body being named by men in male terms. I also wouldn’t use “birth canal” except in talking specifically about birth — and, actually, I’ve never seen the phrase used except in talking about birth.

    I do understand that culture at large pushes women to feel certain ways about their bodies, using language that glorifies motherhood. And, out of context, I would generally call BS if someone called a woman who chose not to have children’s uterus a magical womb or her *cough* “sheath” a birth canal, but in the proper context, I think those words are perfectly appropriate.

    I agree that we should learn to honor all parts of our body, which work together to keep us here. My aunt recently got a liver transplant. You can bet she appreciates her liver, and considers it a little bit magical!

    As far as calling the “mind” the brain, that’s a philosophical issue that we really can’t debate here. Some people believe the mind is the brain, some people believe the brain is simply an indicator of what’s happening in the mind, some people believe some combination or something totally different. And there’s no way to prove these existential questions, so I don’t understand why differentiating between “mind” and “brain” is offensive. It’s just a different way of believing.

  76. Thank you for this post, Ren. Too I couldn’t make it through the comments for fear of my head exploding – if I hear or read one more non-sex worker wanking their sense of entitlement to define sex workers’ experiences for them, I may just snap.

  77. “Because the way it’s being qualified is that men are entitled to buy those services. The statement “men are entitled to sex at any time” to me, would mean men are entitled take sex at any time not only from those selling a sexual service, but also in the form of sexual assault and rape.”

    Esra,

    Some of us are not convinced that sex is a service that should be rendered on demand to anyone willing to pay a certain lump sum of cash. His comment does positively reek of sexual entitlement. He absolutely is saying that men have the right to have sex with women whenever they want using any means they want short of physical force.

  78. Funny, I didn’t interpret Chet’s comment that way at all. What I saw was several people presenting one theory of who men who patronize prostitutes are, and Chet presenting an alternative theory.

  79. I don’t understand some of these arguments at all. There seems to be a core assumption on some people’s parts that these two scenarios are fundamentally different:

    I want someone to have sex with me, but I don’t have anyone in my life who’s willing to do that with me. Rather than trying to find someone who wants to, I’ll compensate someone financially so that they’ll have sex with me.

    I want someone else to cook and serve my meals, but I don’t have anyone in my life who’s willing to do that for me. Rather than trying to find someone who wants to, I’ll compensate someone financially so that they’ll cook and serve my meals.

    Now, these are both activities that satisfy ordinary biological urges, and that many or most people either take care of themselves or with willing partners, friends, family members, etc. Of course, some people DO feel entitled to these kinds of services, or act like power-tripping, abusive assholes towards the people who they pay to perform these services. But it’s also possible to find, outside of rare mythology, people who pay for these things and are respectful of the service provider’s autonomy, dignity, etc.

    When I see people like Jesurgislac get upset that sex work is being compared to other kinds of jobs that involve the selling of bodily labor, I can only make guesses as to why they think it’s fundamentally different somehow. I mean, I can think of a few reasons:

    1) Sex work involves selling your body and other jobs don’t.
    I think Ren covered this pretty well in the original post.

    2) Sex work, unlike other forms of work, is about the selling of an intimate relationship. This is the kind of human interaction and connection that simply shouldn’t be commodified.
    I believe Hugo Schwyzer brought this up in an old thread. It’s sort of convincing, but seems a little self-righteous to extend that prohibition to everyone, and furthermore there’s something a little odd here. Do we compain in the same way about the commodification of the parent-child relationship, i.e. paying someone to raise your kids for you? Surely that’s at least as important a human relationship.

    3) Everyone should want sex to be a mutually pleasurable experience.
    I think this is Jesurgislac’s argument, but I don’t quite get it. This isn’t necessarily how sexual pleasure and interactions work, in my understanding, even when cash exchanges are not involved. Does this mean pity fucks are immoral too? What about topping where the top doesn’t get off? Is there a bright line between “voluntary, as a gift to someone I like” and “voluntary, because I was compensated?”

    4) Having sex as your job is inherently degrading and violating, making it different from all other forms of work.
    This is the “common sense” argument, I think. Personally I think cleaning up other people’s poop is also pretty degrading and violating, but I’ve done that for money. If the argument is about many kinds of sex work often being dangerous, undercompensated, difficult work that has physical and psychological risks and challenges, that’s a different stroy. Jobs that are risky or extra-demanding ought to be compensated well, completely voluntary with informed consent, and with risks mitigated and managed. Obviously that is not happening in large swaths of the sex industry, which ought to be a major focus of everyone’s concern with sex work.

    5) Sex work is unlike other work because it generally involves men who want kinds of sex that very few women would consent to: degrading, objectifying sex, or to a lesser degree, participating in adultery.
    This is an argument I’ve heard Amanda Marcotte make. I don’t know how to evaluate the accuracy of it, though. I certainly know sex workers who say they’ve had clients that aren’t like this, but that doesn’t prove anything. On the other hand, unequal supply and demand does seem to drive some parts of sex work, like the demand for pro dommes; is that necessarily bad? It sounds like it’s bad mostly if it’s a high demand for sex that’s inherently degrading — the thesis, then, is that the demand for buying sex is driven largely by violent misogyny and the industry would be tiny without it. I have to leave that idea up to people who actually work in the industry to evaluate, which is as it should be.

    I don’t have time to keep writing at the moment, but there’s one other idea I wanted to mention. There are a few forms of work, and sex work is usually one of them, that involve selling an illusion of “not work” to the buyer. Alongside our society’s general squickiness about sex and female bodies, age-old stigma towards sex workers, and ideas about how relationships should and shouldn’t be commodified, I think that “she really wants to be having sex with me” quality of illusion is part of where the feeling of “this is different from other work” comes from.

  80. Jesurgislac: Do me a favor and don’t tell me how to run my comment threads, okay? I don’t delete, I don’t edit, I don’t disemvowell.

    And these…gahhhh…these:

    “Sex work, unlike other forms of work, is about the selling of an intimate relationship. This is the kind of human interaction and connection that simply shouldn’t be commodified.”

    Says who? To some, yes, sex is intimate. To others, it is not. Please do keep ones personal ideas of intimacy and such out of other peoples panites, thank you. Business or pleasure, one persons intimate act is another persons hobbey or stress relief or countless other not so intimate things.

    “Having sex as your job is inherently degrading and violating, making it different from all other forms of work.”

    Nothing is inherently degrading or violating. Sexual acts for whatever reason have no politic, it’s the attitude that goes with them that makes such things whatever they are…and frankly NO ONE is in a position to tell ANYONE when they are being degraded or violated except that person THEMSELVES. PERIOD.

    “Sex work is unlike other work because it generally involves men who want kinds of sex that very few women would consent to: degrading, objectifying sex, or to a lesser degree, participating in adultery.”

    Uh huh, I hear a lot of non-sex workers say that, like they KNOW or something. The most requested act, according to every sexworker I’ve ever talked to: a blow job. And you know, so many regular non sex worker women would NEVER give one of those…please. And plenty of people committ adultery…not even with sex workers!

    Sigh.

  81. Bah, I’ll read the rest of the thread in a minute, but Faith:

    Actually, what Chet said does absolutely = men are, and should be, entitled to sex whenever they want. He’s literally saying that if men can’t find consensual sex elsewhere, they are entitled to buy it. How exactly is that not literally arguing that men are not entitled to sex at anytime?

    No, it doesn’t. Because the original statement was not a judgement on whether prostitutes should be available, it was a statement on why someone would choose to use their services given they are available. Big difference.

    Plus I can’t help but read into statements about how “men believe they’re buying her body” etc as meaning that prostitutes are obligated to service men in any way the man demands. They are not. If they force them to do something they don’t agree to it’s rape – not theft of services.

  82. OK, I just read Ren’s last comment and it was enough to convince me not to read the rest of the thread.

    I am in a monogamous, long-term relationship with a man. I am a 23 year old white woman who earns not-a-lot with a 43 year old white man who earns quite a lot. We live in his house, he drives his company car (I don’t have my licence). I fit plenty of of gender stereotypes. But guess what? Sex =/= intimacy for me. And I’m sick of being told it should. It’s not healthy that I can’t be intimate whilst fucking, I agree. But there’s nothing wrong with the fact that every sexual act isn’t loving for me. “Sex work is inherently degrading”? Well fuck you. Guess what? It’s judgemental pricks like you who make it degrading, not the work itself.

    Oh, and men wanting sex with prostitutes that no normal woman would want? Can you hear yourself?? Talk about projecting patriarchal ideas. I can’t convince my partner to do any of those “degrading” thing to me, and I really want him to. One of the things I regret most about being monogamous is I’m never going to get the opportunity to fuck 5 guys at once. But I guess the patriarchy and my fucked up upbringing made me that way, where as everyone who wants nothing but vanilla sex is a veritable angel.

    Jesus

  83. Why should men feel entitled to buy the right to make use of a woman’s body, rather than trying to make themselves attractive enough that a woman will want to have sex with them?

    I wasn’t agreeing with Chet so much as presenting how I interpreted what he said (specifically re: entitled to buy versus entitled to take).

    I do not think men should be entitled to “make use of a woman’s body”. I absolutely believe that those selling sexual services should have the right to accept or reject any potential client (which is one of the many reasons I think decriminalization is really important).

    I think that when you have a discussion like this one about terminology and the author is saying people should quit with the body selling language and yet people continue to use that kind of language in the comments, it borders on topic derailment.

    I think that to get away from the body selling label and into the sexual service label, there needs to be more understanding that the selling of a service pretty much has to follow with someone buying that service (and this is not limited to men, especially when you take into consideration people purchasing porn or going to strip clubs etc, if you are looking at sex work in a broader way).

    Back to the question asked: I don’t think someone should be entitled to someone else’s time and sexual attention. But if a person is offering a sexual service, a potential client wants to engage that service, and the provider is amenable to the transaction? Then I don’t have a problem with that.

  84. Indeed, there is a difference between purchasing a service and raping someone. The sooner people realize that, the better all around.

  85. I appreciate this discussion and wanted to thank Ren for the post (and all your posts, and for your activism) and to thank Holly for that last comment and the thought that went into enumerating those possibilities. I want to add one more to the list, even though it may on its face not seem directly linked to the “selling bodies” language issue, and won’t be very articulate because I’m tired and not using the right words. When I see women, who may or may not identify as feminists, debate such terminology in ways that surprise me (like, seemingly “not getting it” ways), I just keep coming back to internalized sexism and internalized misogyny – basically, demonizing and holding women accountable for actions we *are indoctrinated to believe* contribute to our own oppression, objectification, whatever. We are aware that as a marginalized group, we are judged as a group, not as individuals…somehow it can get lost that that is a really fucked-up and not inevitable way of being, and instead of rejecting this we start policing other women to keep ourselves “safe” or in some fantasized high esteem. I would guess we have all caught ourselves getting angry at an individual woman–completely unfairly but also understandably given the environment we live in–for *making us women look bad*. For *confirming stereotypes* about women and (here’s the logic leap) thus *making things harder for us*. Never mind the complete fucked-up-ness of that very IDEA! That each of us needs to monitor our casual, non-criminal behavior so that *other women don’t suffer for it*.

    So, (I know this is not very coherent but I’ll keep going) by this token I (a philosophical “I”), having been indoctrinated in this way, am led to believe that person A’s participation in sex work directly “perpetuates” and hell even *justifies!* objectification of women, which I also suffer under, and boy does that make me mad at person A! Then some of that reverse-magic-logic kicks in and says that if person A is contributing to my objectification, if person A is *willingly being objectified* (and my displaced rage makes me hate them for it) that makes person A *an object* and that makes language like “selling your body” somehow seem OK (and even satisfying for some, I don’t doubt). And then I, who “appropriately rejects” objectification (yuck), get to feel all separate from that *other class of women* and get to feel relief and less humiliated by my own oppression, because I have placed my demeaned, degraded feeling from being leered at, groped, sexualized, pornified, whatever, right ONTO YOU, person A, and what must be your DEMEANING DEGRADING BEHAVIOR.

    For some reason, feminists can more easily recognize this dynamic and reject it when it comes to other situations involving women, for instance stay-at-home moms (at least, that’s been the case in some discussions I’ve seen – feminists more easily advocate for women to be able to make this choice, even in the face of criticisms that it perpetuates things like workplace inequality, unequal division of household labor, and stereotypes about women’s mothering instincts, “toughness”, ambition, or competitiveness, or whatever). We can (it seems) also more easily recognize and reject the dynamic when it comes to women who choose to have children, and thus “perpetuate” having children as the “norm,” even though if we are childless by choice we may be tempted to get angry because *that means people will continue to expect ME to have kids, make intrusive demands as such, and accuse me of deviancy if I don’t!* For whatever reason, we don’t as easily displace our anger about our oppression in these categories onto the “different” women themselves.

    Sex workers don’t get this luxury, this basic consideration, perhaps in part due to the heightened fear, anger, and resentment women have around issues of unwanted sexual attention and the realistic danger (and humiliation) it can carry (which again, is not ACTUALLY perpetuated by sex workers, but thereby goes that fucked-up-identification-with-oppressors logic). And perhaps for the other reasons mentioned above re: teh durty sex. Or whatever.

    So I guess I don’t know what my point was after all that, but i think awareness of all that and of our (often unchecked) misplaced resentment and anger towards other women can go a long way, and attention to language can both initiate that self-reflective process and result from it.

  86. You know, I read this thread and the comments remind me of the same arguments that people with disabilities have with non-disabled people who insist that they know best how our experiences should be described. It all comes down to whether or not someone is willing to acknowledge that everyone, even those whose lives are different from ours, is entitled to be self-defining.

    If Ren wanted me to call her a turkey-and-mayo sandwich it really wouldn’t harm me any to do it. If referring to her work in the terms that she feels best describes it is what she wants, well then I think I have a responsibility to abide by that. It’s just that simple people.

    For those who think that she should be discussing something else, here’s an idea: Why don’t you go and start a blog where you can do just that?

    You know, I’d think you wouldn’t have to tell this stuff to people who call themselves feminists but, sadly, several folks on this thread have disproved that theory.

  87. Uh, Dana, Holly wasn’t necessarily endorsing those viewpoints, just pointing them out.

    *dives back into lurkdom*

  88. Ren, thanks for the great post!

    And Holly thanks for your comment too. I love the way you can dissect the assumptions behind peoples’ arguments.

    It bothers me that so many people put sex work in a different category from other types of work and pontificate on the topic without listening to the opinions of actual sex workers. A similar thing often happens when issues involving gender-queer or transgendered people and their rights come up in allegedly progressive company. People seem to draw categories around certain behaviors or groups of people they aren’t willing to listen to or try to understand. For me, it tends to hurt more when these attitudes come from alleged allies. Just because sex worker’s rights aren’t “your” personal cause doesn’t give you a excuse to to listen to the views of sex workers. You might learn something. I have.

    I think discussions on blogs are valuable because at least where I live, sex work isn’t something that many people discuss publicly. I think that this lack of discussion helps people who have very progressive views on other topics maintain unthinking reactions to sex work that remove the agency of sex workers.

    As Ren said so well, sex work, and especially prostitution, get categorized differently than other types of labor. In addition, people who are supportive of sex workers and their rights often still have negative gut reactions to people who pay for sex. I think part of this reaction may be connected to the idea that sex should involve intimacy in a way other acts don’t. Yet some people who oppose prostitution have no problem with people hooking up or picking up/going home with someone in a bar. From a public health standpoint, regulated prostitution is probably safer than a hook-up and neither act is likely to be particularly intimate for most people, but I haven’t heard anybody I know say that she wouldn’t date someone who hooked up with people and I’ve heard my friends say that they would never date a guy who payed for prostitutes.

  89. In addition, people who are supportive of sex workers and their rights often still have negative gut reactions to people who pay for sex. I think part of this reaction may be connected to the idea that sex should involve [mutual pleasure] in a way other acts don’t.

    Fixed that for you. “Intimacy” is not the right description. Sex does involve intimacy – but so does a pelvic examination or colonic irrigation or even a facial or pedicure/manicure. In fact, a hairdresser or a dentist gets quite intimate – in a way that, in a different situation, could be sexually intimate. I don’t expect a doctor/nurse/dentist or a beautician to get pleasure out of doing these things to me (and if they do, I would certainly rather not know about it), and I don’t get sexual pleasure out of having my hair done or my teeth examined or having a pelvic exam.

    So yeah: I do have a very strong idea that when people have sex, it should be with the intent of mutual pleasure, not with the intent that person A shall give sexual pleasure to person B, because B has paid A so that A shall provide it without B having to consider A’s own sexual needs/pleasure in any way.

    And while I don’t see any problem with A providing what B wants to pay for, I do have a problem with B’s attitude towards sex and sexual partners.

    Yet some people who oppose prostitution have no problem with people hooking up or picking up/going home with someone in a bar.

    Why would I? I’ve talked with people who’ve done both – and they confirm: you are in a different situation, both expectations and outcome, when you pick up someone with the intent of having casual sex because you are mutually attracted and both want to, and when a sex worker or a punter approach each other.

  90. I don’t expect a doctor/nurse/dentist or a beautician to get pleasure out of doing these things to me

    get sexual pleasure, I meant. Especially the part about not wanting to know if they do.

  91. “Sex work is inherently degrading”? Well fuck you.

    Seriously. I still can’t believe feminists actually use that across-the-board line and believe it. Fuck that judgmental holier-than-thou bullshit.

  92. “1) Sex work involves selling your body and other jobs don’t.”

    For the record, I personally do not just object to sex work. I have an objection to capitalism all around. I don’t support it. I don’t believe in it. And I think creating the reality that people can buy and sell labor and services is inherently problematic in itself.

    I do participate in capitalism, but only because I have virtually no other choice. And I do try to not support the system in any way I reasonably can.

  93. I know it’s off-topic, but I couldn’t help addressing one of the arguments about clients: the presumption that they want a receptacle instead of a human being, and don’t want mutually pleasurable sex.

    I will not talk about my experiences because I am fully aware I seem to be a bit unusually lucky. So I will talk about message and review boards that describe and rate services provided by escorts. One of the highest sought after experiences – and the one that carries the higher price also – is the GFE: the “Girlfriend Experience”. In my area (Alberta), for example, mindless and somewhat detached sex could be found for $200 an hour if the girl is considered to be very hot – but GFE would carry a $300 an hour price tag, and even a woman of average appearance could command such a rate.

    GFE is an illusion – or a fact, if the connection is genuine – of a woman who wants to be with the client, who sees him as a human being, and who truly enjoys sex with him. It’s the mutual pleasure that seems to be the most highly valued aspect of escorting industry – at least, when we talk about escorting agencies and especially independent escorts. I don’t know how big this particular segment of the industry is – but it’s got to be pretty significant, judging by thousands of registered members at the review boards. I also don’t know what percentage of total sex industry clients do these guys represent. Research like this, to my knowledge, has not been done.

    Ren has just posted links to actual sex workers talking, and you’d find that Amanda Brooks also speaks of the escorting clients in similar terms: men who pay the escort, rather than masturbate, because they want connection with a human being. They want to feel validated that they can please a woman. They’d go to an escort rather than the bar scene because they may be married, afraid of complications, or physically unattractive – but not because they want to use and dehumanize a woman.

  94. Melissa Mad,

    think part of this reaction may be connected to the idea that sex should involve intimacy in a way other acts don’t. Yet some people who oppose prostitution have no problem with people hooking up or picking up/going home with someone in a bar.

    Hell, I’ve been madly in love with the same partner for over ten years now and, lemme tell ya’, oftentimes the best sex we have is when there isn’t any lovey dovey let’s-cuddle-first type of action involved. The lovey dovey, let’s-get-all-dolled-up-just-to-take-off-our-clothes-again action can be great too but it’s not necessary for a sexual interaction to be fulfilling every time.

  95. So yeah: I do have a very strong idea that when people have sex, it should be with the intent of mutual pleasure, not with the intent that person A shall give sexual pleasure to person B, because B has paid A so that A shall provide it without B having to consider A’s own sexual needs/pleasure in any way.

    But situations where mutual pleasure isn’t the goal arise outside of sex-work as well as within it, no? They don’t necessarily involve pay.

    I understand you treat sex as a unique factor, but I still don’t see a difference between this and, say, hiring a professional babysitter for your kids or a nurse for your elderly parent.

  96. “I understand you treat sex as a unique factor, but I still don’t see a difference between this and, say, hiring a professional babysitter for your kids or a nurse for your elderly parent.”

    For many people, including myself who has already stated I’m anti-capitalist, it is different. It’s a far more intimate exchange. Sex is the most physically intimate exchange two or more people can engage in. Comparing sex to cleaning someone’s house – as if the two are entirely equal – boggles my brains.

  97. “For many people, including myself who has already stated I’m anti-capitalist, it is different. It’s a far more intimate exchange. Sex is the most physically intimate exchange two or more people can engage in. Comparing sex to cleaning someone’s house – as if the two are entirely equal – boggles my brains.”

    Yep, for many people, yourself included. Yet, that is not a universal. I (and others) do not see it that way, and your brains don’t have to get it. Yet, I am content to let your brain keep it as the most physically intimate exchange YOU and another person can engage in, however, I get real annoyed when people take THEIR feelings on the matter and apply them (as Universals) for all of us, because some of us most certainly do not see sex the same way.

  98. Faith, as I mentioned to you in another thread, I think that professional detachment is crucial to people being able to perform certain tasks. I think if we all did everything we do out of sheer generosity and love, many of us would start going insane. Because life can be incredibly difficult, and if we don’t have boundaries in our lives, there will be consequences. And this is true for any economic system, not just a capitalist one.

    As for boggling brains… Well, imagine a babysitter who has a real attachment to the kids she’s helping look after, and the kids are attached to her too. What could honestly be more intimate than the love of a child? And yet, an economic transaction is still involved. Hell, in a few years, when the kids no longer need the babysitter, it may be very hard to let go.

    My mother worked as a babysitter to make ends meet when she suddenly lost her job, and when it was time for her to quit, it was hard for her. She still sees it as a tremendously rewarding experience, if you may wonder.

    Hell, cleaning up a toilet is an intimate experience of a whole different kind. None of us may like to do it, but it is what it is, and can remind you of our lovely shared humanity. I mean, I had it part of my job description once. Sure, it was humbling as hell, but I can’t say I regret it.

  99. “Sex work is inherently degrading”? Well fuck you. Guess what? It’s judgemental pricks like you who make it degrading, not the work itself.

    A-fucking-men!

    Sex work, as I see it, is not about doing things you hate to/with people for money. If you choose a career in the industry, it should be because you enjoy connecting with people through whatever route you choose, whether it be escorting, tantric massage, BDSM, etc.

    I work as a Professional Dominatrix and adult model. I have the power to decide with whom I will session or be photographed by. I set my own hours. I decide where to work. I set my own rates. When I worked in an office, being told when to come in, how to dress and being expected to work 40+ hours a week in order to make someone else rich, I felt a hell of a lot more degraded on the job than I ever have since becoming a pro dominant.

  100. Jesurgislac, I think we have a different definition of intimate. To me intimacy is sharing important parts of yourself with another person that you wouldn’t share with just anyone. It is letting the person involved know you rather than just casually interaction. If I hook up with a girl from a club and we have sex with no expectation of seeing each other again or sharing personal information I wouldn’t consider the act intimate even though genitals are involved. But, as you pointed out it can be intimate for some people. I didn’t think about the mutual pleasure part as clearly, but maybe that’s where the real hang-up is for many people.

    Faith at F.N. “Sex is the most physically intimate exchange two or more people can engage in.” I don’t really get why this makes sex different. Maybe sex is the most physically intimate thing you can do with someone else (I’m not sure and would have to think about this), but people can have sex and know almost nothing about each other and have little emotional connection. To me, actually caring about someone seems more intimate than sexual contact.

    The other thing that seems absolutely taboo to mention is that sex workers and especially those who have sex with clients could be getting off on at least some of their paid interactions.

  101. Jesurgislac @ 103

    So yeah: I do have a very strong idea that when people have sex, it should be with the intent of mutual pleasure, not with the intent that person A shall give sexual pleasure to person B, because B has paid A so that A shall provide it without B having to consider A’s own sexual needs/pleasure in any way.

    Your ideas about telling people how they should have consensual, or even contractual sex are wrong, and dangerous.

    If I want to get someone off without them worrying about me, neither I, nor they are hurting anyone, or ourselves. Your imagination does not make it so. I get to choose what hurts me *not you*.

    Get it?

  102. I posted earlier about clients who search for GFE/intimacy/connection.
    I then read this comment by Melissa Mad:
    “The other thing that seems absolutely taboo to mention is that sex workers and especially those who have sex with clients could be getting off on at least some of their paid interactions.”

    For some of us, it’s true too. And I don’t speak about orgasms but rather sincere pleasure of being with a client. Some client interactions can elicit genuine orgasms form the provider, some can have genuine intimacy, and some can have both.

    Some escorts/sensual masseuses see some of their work as an opportunity for connection too – and then sometimes, you really click with a client. But that requires that three factors are in place simultaneously: that the sex worker is very positive about what she does and open to intimacy, that the client is seeking intimacy, and the mysterious “click” happens.

    I would not even try to estimate what percentage of total escort encounters tends to have this dynamics. If you believe reviews, many – but I also know that often enough, it is an act or at least, an exaggeration on the part of the provider. But I also strongly believe that any escort who isn’t jaded and cynical, and who enjoys her work, would have at least occasionally experienced intimacy with clients.

  103. Oh, and men wanting sex with prostitutes that no normal woman would want? Can you hear yourself?? Talk about projecting patriarchal ideas. I can’t convince my partner to do any of those “degrading” thing to me, and I really want him to. One of the things I regret most about being monogamous is I’m never going to get the opportunity to fuck 5 guys at once. But I guess the patriarchy and my fucked up upbringing made me that way, where as everyone who wants nothing but vanilla sex is a veritable angel.

    Yeah, that. Whatever the sex act or fantasy, someone out there of any gender wants it.

  104. Aren’t we really selling access. Access to the vagina is $xxx, access to the mouth is $xxx, access to the anus is $x,xxx, access without a condom is double price.

  105. “I am not a slave or someone’s property, and terminology such as “you’re selling yourself” implies just that, and it is demeaning, shaming, and inaccurate. So please think of that the next time you decide to talk about sex workers selling themselves, because doing so objectifies them, boils them down to merely their sexuality just as much the worse of consumers might. It implies that the whole of their being is what they are selling; when in truth they are renting a fantasy, a body, their sexual or erotic organs and movement skills. Which is not all they are, it is not ‘they’. Get it now?””

    Being offended by a word? The semantics of a single word worthy of a lengthy rant and knee jerk defense seem to get sidetracked with a only a word….
    “Selling” as opposed to renting your Vagina. Argue and debate over a word, but I see the main greater profound issue here as however you call what Sex Workers do, it’s profoundly demeaning, degrading, objectifying, humiliating, desecrating the body of the women, her humanity. “Selling Access to…. or Renting it out, matters not how you call it, but the effect on the psyche that’s more important in the bigger picture. You insist it’s not selling yourself, because using the Word Selling is in of itself demeaning??? Huh? How does renting your vagina elevate or change anything different in a positive act to anything but “Demeaning” Degrading, Misogynist, and Objectifying. Men think of you as a sex object, they don’t think of her as human as it changes the excitement turn-on, They want to do to you what gets them of without consequences, and thinking of your humanity deflates the thrill. It is exactly what allowing men to abuse your body only as an efficient means to wack off without regards to your humanity, soul, feelings, total person, no courting, no tenderness, no thoughtful caring of your “human spirit” No concern of your welfare, or happiness in creating emotional connection with mutual pleasure. Sex workers renting their vaginas are just there as an inanimate object as a dog requires a fire hydrant to take an emergency piss on for its own selfish needs. NO matter how much dignity you try to profess, defend to sell in renting out your inner most body to be used and paid, does not feel emotionally connecting, psychological, or physically wonderful, on the contrary the analogy is like allowing yourself to be defecated on, and at what price are you willing to offer that commodity? Selling, verses Renting your vagina REMAINS a desecration of a women’s humanity. If this was such a wonderful spiritual experience why charge for it? The high compensation justifies it in your mind. If you were to earn the exact same for traditional work, I’d bet my money you’d choose not to rent out your vagina to men who use it not as an expression of love and caring. Does this renting out vagina work elevate a women’s Self Esteem, Purposefulness, and Self Worth, I already know the answer.

  106. WV: If you already know the answer, why the long ass rant?

    Oh, and you’d lose that bet.

    Thank you for presuming to tell me how I REALLY feaal about my life, job and such. I am sure you sleep well at night knowing you are a far more versed authority on my life and feelings than I am. It must be nice to be universally right and all knowing!

  107. WV:

    Thank you for your eloquent post.

    Your argument seems to be centered on the use of a woman’s reproductive organs as a means of income. Unless I am mistaken, you also believe that, as a source of income, the use of said reproductive organs would be anathema to you.

    I understand that part of your argument. What I do not understand is your total rejection of the whole human experience. Do you suggest that we have been reduced, (as a species), down to our reproductive bits?

    May I please point out that on numerous occasions Cecillia Bartoli’s voice has been called her “instrument”. Is not a great sculptor using his hands using his/her “instrument”? Other than your personal moral objections, what argument can you make about a sex worker? OK, let me clarify, a sex worker who is in the field voluntarily. She/ he are simply using their “instrument” to bring joy and experience to others.

    What right/privilege do you invoke to judge?

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