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Individualism

Bigotry relies on classification. People who are sexist, racist, ablist, homophobic, transphobic, what have you, have convinced themselves that women, people of color, etc. are X or are not Y. That they are able to feel a particular way about an entire group because the group is homogenous in some way.

Whereas, these people feel that their own group is composed of individuals. Let’s take a white male who doesn’t think highly of blacks or women. He’s decided that blacks are a certain way, and women are a certain way. However, he doesn’t like all white men either. But the reasons he may not like someone in this latter group allow for more diversity within the group.

In my earlier post on regulated capitalism, there were some comments that suggested that capitalism involved individualism, which is flawed. (La Lubu has some interesting things to say on individualism, in comment 93 here and also here).

Certainly, while women, like men, have the right to try to excel, this should coexist with working as a team for objectives which would benefit all women. The lack of consensus around feminist objectives and the increasingly difficult balancing act that women face involving a longer workday and other issues are some of the reasons this is challenging, but also some of the reasons it’s necessary.

But I think individualism is something women cannot afford to write out, either.

I’ve heard suggestions within TWF that any step women are able to take is purely based on privilege, rather than initiative, guts, creativity, or anything else individual. But by asking women to think in terms of a homogeneous collective, aren’t we playing right into the hands of the bigots?

Let’s clarify one point. Obviously, class and other forms of privilege play a huge role in opportunity. But they don’t tell the whole story. Women from equivalent backgrounds can achieve different things, have different belief systems, make an impact in a different way. We are not the sum total of our body parts and family wealth situation. One woman in my law school class, had a dad who had been a sharecropper (almost sixty years her senior; her mom was one of about six common-law wives). Another woman’s dad was an auto industry tycoon. Now they work at the same firm and make the same income. The woman whose dad was a sharecropper, additionally, has had poetry published in major journals and has lauched a successful DV-focused pro bono program. Not everyone who came from her background has the ability to wind up working for a top New York law firm, but don’t we take something away from her by failing to acknowledge that she had some pretty neat individual accomplishments? Nor is this an isolated example.

Moreover, looking at the marriage example. Do we conclude, because some women really don’t have the economic ability/opportunity to get out of a bad marriage, that none of us can or should, or that we can’t pat ourselves on the back once we do? Absolutely not, in my book.

But, as is my tendency, let’s get rid of all the theory and look at the practice. What if we accept that we are indeed homogenous. And that any privilege we have is on the backs of another women. Any success we have in capitalism is perpetuating the system at a cost to other women.

OK, that’s the deal: what happens?

Well, I don’t much see the point for women to go to college, in that case. A four year degree, and certainly a grad degree, are only patriarchal tools to compete for MONEY or STATUS which would be individualist to aspire to. We can audit women’s studies classes and other humanities classes, but law, medicine, business, engineering, etc. are all part of the patriarchy. If we wish to do law or medicine purely pro bono, that is OK, but we cannot afford to go to law or med school if we can’t pay back our loans afterwards, so: let’s just forget that. We can get 2-year degrees, or none, and teach or volunteer our time.

Is anyone seeing a problem with this yet? We have effectively formed an even more entrenched underclass than already exists. Women would have zero relationship leverage, much less leverage in politics and industry. Even the beginnings of the media beginning to feature the Helen Mirrens, Hillary Clintons, Michelle Obamas, Mary Meekers, Cynthia McKinneys, Meg Whitmans as enigmatic and charismatic, if not sexbotty, would change – the only women given any media attention would be the look I used to aspire to in Vegas; as one customer put it: “all eyes, boobs and legs (and not necessarily in that order).”

Not a particularly healthy aspiration, I don’t think.

So why NOT individualism? Of course, that doesn’t mean we don’t recognize how lucky we are for being able to achieve it. Or that we don’t do as much as we reasonably can towards collective activism and giving.

But as women we deserve to step up to the dudes and announce we’re here. We’re not all one way. Just like them, some of us have the ability to lead, some of us have the ability to teach, some of us have the ability to create great art, music, literature. Some of us have the ability to make pots of money.

Some of us will be their bosses. Our names will be on the polls in national elections. We’ll be living in the mansions reserved for university presidents, and not because we’re married to them. We haven’t forgotten that this is all a privilege, but we’ve come to realize that shame and apology don’t help those who don’t have it, and may distract us from focusing on just HOW to do that effectively. Just like the guys, we’re not some sort of uniform breed or tribe who can be shunted off by pulling our guilt strings.

Or, at least that’s my hope.


47 thoughts on Individualism

  1. Just like them, some of us have the ability to lead, some of us have the ability to teach, some of us have the ability to create great art, music, literature.

    Don’t forget SCIENCE!!!

  2. Like you’ve pointed out, the ability to be seen as an individual instead of a partially-faceless representative of some group is a facet of privilege. It’s been pointed out any number of times; the members of unmarked categories who are exceptional in some way (negative or positive) are portrayed as individual stand-outs. Everyone else, women and people of color and every other marked and marginalized “difference” tends to portrayed at least in part as reflecting on that group, for good or ill. This is why famous artists in various fields sometimes say they don’t want to be categorized or known as “a woman painter” or “a black filmmaker,” to say nothing of the negative portrayals that we recognize as sexist or racist because of the way they generalize about entire categories of humanity.

    The privilege to be recognized as an individual, appreciated (or scorned, even) on our particular personalities, accomplishment, decisions, and flaws, is a privilege that everyone should enjoy. (Please note in case it’s unclear to anyone reading: privilege is not an inherently bad thing. Unequally distributed privilege is.) I think we can grant that privilege across the board without losing sight of how broader social forces influence and shape us, or the need for collective responsibility and welfare. I believe we should strive to balance those things because individualism can be a powerful motivating force in human psychology — as was discussed in the thread on capitalism.

    At the same time, the ways that we are privileged are also the ways in which we often over-emphasize our own individuality and individual agency. Men are more likely to see themselves as succeeding on their own merits because male privilege is invisible to many guys. The same holds for white people: see Amp’s cartoon on benefitting from racism in ways that might just seem like a bunch of individual hard work to many white folks.

    So to me the upshot is — absolutely yes, women sheould stand up to be recognized as individual women. At the same time, white people (and able-bodied people, and straight people, and so on) should also keep in mind that there are facets of our lives (circumstances that are relatively less sexist, but still predominantly white, for instance) where we’ve been encouraged to think of ourselves as individuals to a much greater degree than others are allowed to, and that obfuscates categorical privileges we’ve enjoyed.

  3. Holly — yes, it’s certainly possible to overemphasize it, per “Of course, that doesn’t mean we don’t recognize how lucky we are for being able to achieve it.” I like your point that something can be good in itself but the unequal distribution of that thing is bad. It’s not thinking of ourselves as individuals that’s bad, but ignoring the fact that we may be more privileged than others to do so. Even being aware of that fact and bemoaning it is of limited value.

    The best altnerative, IMO, is to be open to both individual and collective paths and to be actively focused on using leverage gained from that to work towards opening up the ability to exploit both paths for others. The concern is that collective responsibility and welfare often needs, in addition to grassroots support, support from within the power structure. And getting wtihin it requires some individualism.

    One example is this. It took high-level women and minority clients to insist that their service organizations – like law firms – had a certain percentage of women and minorities. Clients have fired firms for underperforming in this regard. I’m no expert in the trades or in other kinds of job environments, but I would imagine this kind of leverage can be brought to bear there as well.

    However, without individualism, we’ll have fewer women and minorities getting to the top in our current system. Per the link above, Roderick Palmore, GC at Sara Lee, who is black, pushed the initiative through at his company. Ramona E. Romero, the DuPont senior counsel who oversees the company’s relationship with its law firms, has fired firms without adequate female representation. I would bet you that Palmore and Romero are folks who have utilized individualism. You don’t get to be head legal counsel without playing the individual merit game.

  4. And that any privilege we have is on the backs of another women. Any success we have in capitalism is perpetuating the system at a cost to other women.

    I know that this was meant in sarcasm but this is the only part of your piece that I agree with. They we cannot remove ourselves from the vicious cycle of exploitation unless we live in a secluded cabin in the woods it is important that we realize that ever single exchange we make as westerners no matter how innocent it seems is predicated on exploiting another body. That is the nature of capitalism or did you really think the true cost of bananas was 49 cents a pound?

  5. Renee — how is that point actually more beneficial to the less privileged than the kinds of things Lee and Romero have achieved through a combination of individual and group efforts?

    Using a more prominent example, Martin Luther King is a good one. He’s utilized both individualism and collective action. He entered college at fifteen, and got a Bachelor of Divinity at twenty-two and his PhD at twenty-six. He did substantial networking to get his dissertation major attention and visibility. He also leveraged his role and individual reputation to negotiate with JFK shape the March on Washington the way he wanted it, while compromising to allow Kennedy some input and direction.

    Women who have come from poverty to achieve things — Oprah, JK Rowling — has their success (and yup, utilizing capitalism and individualism) been on the backs of other women? Have they helped more women than they’ve harmed?

  6. Of course they have. You seem to think that everyday acts don’t count. Just because we have normalized something as simple as a purchase of bananas does not mean that it is not part of the everyday exploitation of poor labourers. The very air we breathe is mortgaged air as companies move to third world nations where they can pollute to their hearts content to provide cheaply made products for our consumption. We cannot say because someone does “good work” they in their daily acts they are not culpable, that is denying privilege.

  7. Ho’kay, individualism. First, despite someone’s pithy answer on the last thread about “keeping your hands off my body and my wallet” (interesting conflation of body and wallet, no? probably something to unpack there, but I’ve already got a lot on my mind I want to get out), I don’t see individualism as being vs. community, but as a continuum that has swung so far to one side in the United States that the pendulum had broken (and it should probably go without saying that the reasons are embedded in U.S. history, reach back into Europe, and are part and parcel of Protestantism especially as manifested in the U.S. That book I referenced in the last thread, “Respect”, has a lot to say about how the rise of U.S. expressions of Protestantism had and continue to have an indelible influence on socily policy toward the poor. That was educational to me because I do not come from that background, nor have I studied it, and thus don’t have any insight into that arena).

    So, suffice it to say that I believe in striking a balance between the needs of the individual and the needs of the community. We do not have that balance here, and one of the reasons is that there are those of us who are defined as being outside the community (by race, ethnicity, sexual expression, gender identification, bodily ability, and even……sex).

    One of the myths we are taught in what I like to refer to as the 24 Hour Church of Capitalism, is that if we just Try Harder and Overcome Our Obstacles (because Life Isn’t Fair despite our protestations about it, and we should just tacitly admit to ourselves—-just don’t say it out loud, lest people think you’re a Whiner—-that the meritocracy is indeed a lie, that the Meritocracy exists more for the people who are well-born and the rest of us get to gnash our teeth at one another in the faux meritocracy of success-as-musical-chairs)…..that we too can succeed. That we can overcome the obstacles of racism, sexism, etc. and then be that person who gives that helping hand to others, and eventually like the rain we will wear down the forces of bigotry, drop by drop. And we are given examples of people who have done just that. People to compare ourselves to, to remind us of exactly how lazy, stupid, rash, or whatever we are since we couldn’t do what they did, and obviously we could, yannknow, if we just Tried Harder.

    In fact, every discussion of how racism or sexism impacts economic choices, trajectory of careers, paycheck stubs, you-name-it, invariably has someone show up to mention how the Market does not support racism or sexism, and the Market will correct for that bigotry, if we just give the Market a chance. Because the Market will punish those who fail to hire brains and bodies of any size, shape, color, orientation or ability. The Market is the great equalizer, and rewards talent and those with the foresight to utilize talent in all its forms.

    And that, to put it mildly, is complete bullshit. The “isms” don’t happen in a vacuum, historical or otherwise, and the Market is not a neutral observer or an Entity that exists separately from the people who compose it. No level of magical thinking about market(s) is going to change the fact that bigotry is not just divorced from reality, it’s completely divorced from any neutral, rational decision making. And markets are all about decision making, on the micro and macro level. If there’s one universal tie between bigots, it’s this: they sure the hell are emotionally tenacious towards their bigotry. They seem to need it the way they need oxygen.

    Capitalism, and its attending individualism, rely heavily on the myth of exceptionalism. And that’s a problem. See, I have no truck with those who’ve “made it”, skating under the bars set as barriers in their way, leaping tall skyscrapers filled with straight white button-down men, going for broke to be that One, that One who will crush the Matrix and set the multicultural Zion free….

    But that’s not a strategy likely to meet with much success, save for those superachievers who manage to get by, and the individuals they can personally reach out to in some fashion (meaning, not necessarily face-to-face, but through grants, scholarships, foundations, and the like). The reason change happens so slowly in this manner is because a certain Critical Mass is missing.

    Because the exceptionalism isn’t just on the part of the individual high-achievers. It’s also on the part of a few of those in power who see (usually partially) through (some) of their privileges, and who are willing to bridge (some) gaps and let a few Others through the velvet rope. Superachievers need powerful allies—otherwise, they remain “achievers” instead. Get me?

    Movements on the other hand, bring the critical mass. Movements (i.e., the “community”), provide the means for the masses, the average individuals who are collectively shut out, what is within easy reach of the average individuals of those in power (or those who resemble–or can fake resembling) those in power. I’m a union member. I’m not paid the wage I am because I’m really good at what I do (though I am—and a strong part of that is the visceral knowledge of exactly how good I have to be to get within whistling distance of parity—I can’t be average, because the critical mass isn’t there). No, I get that wage due to the efforts of others who went before me, whether that be the efforts of historical figures in the labor movement at large, the elders (some already dead) within my own Local who fought the good fight, the hard-won successes of the civil rights and women’s movements, etc. I have the benefits I have because thousands, nay, millions, marched, picketed, voted, lobbied, and literally fought for me, sometimes even before I was born. Because being good isn’t enough. Even being exceptional (though I make no such claim for myself) isn’t enough.

    Also, and let’s be blunt here, one’s salespersonship better be on point, too. It’s not enough to be damn good at what you do, if you can’t simultaneously sell yourself better than snake oil on the Midway. And a good salesperson has certain skills; skills that aren’t easily taught and arguably (I’d argue, anyway) are beyond the real reach of some folks, in the same way my short ass isn’t going to be knocking you dead with game on the basketball court. Verbal dexterity, “reading” the audience, ease of movement and expression, superior communication skills, extroversion, a warm smile, an honest, friendly, nonthreatening appearance—acting skills, so to speak. Not everyone wins an Oscar (including many of those who should).

    So, while I wouldn’t discount individualism in the fight against the beast, I’m not counting on that tool to slash it’s belly open, either. It has a limited impact and a limited reach, and speaking of bellies, I’ve had mine full of limits.

  8. Re: #5.

    Octo, do you really think it is within the power of most of the population to enter college by the age of fifteen? Complete a PhD by 26? Have the skills necessary to network with the wealthy and powerful?

    Because I’m seeing that as yet another manifestation of the all-or-nothing inherent in capitalism—that if you can’t be a Winner, one of the Exceptional Elite….then, fuck you, Loser! (not that you’re saying that Octo. But Capitalism is.)

  9. gaah. I hate typos. Wish I could type as fast and as accurately as I can speak. That was supposed to be “indelible influence on social policy” up above in #7.

  10. One thing I feel that everyone doesn’t understand: for capitalism to work, someone must be living badly. Inequality is not okay. Also, for capitalism to work, we have to feel inadequate. The capitalist class is only 1% of our country. The fact that women aren’t treated equally to men in the capitalist system does not justify working within it. I’m not saying that women should have to be seen as one group, not individuals within it. But I have a hard time buying the fact that women can’t be individuals without capitalism. I feel as if we are looking at two separate ideas and trying to tie them to one another, when it is not necessary.

  11. Renee – then if those folks have helped more than they’ve harmed, we need to look at the balance of costs and benefits and not just dwell on the costs. The solution cannot be that we cannot breathe air. And not dwelling on it doesn’t mean being oblivious.

    La Lubu – my examples of King et al weren’t to say that trying harder is the only solution, or that we should feel bad because he got into college at fifteen. Just that individual effort can be part of collective benefit. And not everyone whose efforts and creativity contribute in that way is as exceptional as King. There are very ordinary ways of doing this. Let’s not look for the worst motives here.

    Also, I’m not claiming the market corrects for ‘-isms; that’s why my previous post emphasized the need for regulation. Obviously, the goal isn’t for only superachievers to get by. I agree with you about the need for movements. I’m not making any Boolean claims.

  12. @Octo if you are nor conscious of it how can you possibly hope to mitigate the damage that is being done? If every action is a conscious choice not being aware continually of the repercussions of actions makes one oblivious to the suffering of others for personal benefit.

  13. Renee, I agree — I said above “not dwelling on it doesn’t mean being oblivious.” There’s a difference between being conscious of something and being overly conscious of it. The latter often results in more talk than action — a liberal war of words accomplishing not much either for the individual or the collective.

  14. There seem to be two definitions of “individualism” at work here: one economic, and the other “ethical”. The first concerns people’s actions, the second concerns how people are perceived.

    The economic definition is along the lines of “an individual’s (proper) efforts are concerned primarily with the benefit to the individual”. In the OP I found it hard to see how this is not the position being promoted (although I see that Octo has since indicated that this was not the meaning intended).

    The “ethical” definition is along the lines of “all people are individuals with different talents and abilities, and should be recognised as such”.

    The antithesis of the economic definition is collectivism: “An individual’s efforts are best directed to the promotion of the collective as a whole”.

    The antithesis of the “ethical” definition is, to all intents and purposes, wage-slavery capitalism (which is more or less what we have in the whole world today).

    In practice, I think that “collectivism” tends to work best as an idea I think I heard of as “localism” – that an individual’s efforts, in furthering the collective as a whole, are best directed to helping those close to (i.e. local to) the individual.

    One other note on collectivism: people tend to present it as being at odds with the “ethical” definition of individualism (for example, the conception of the Borg Collective in Star Trek, but in actual fact the two properly go hand in hand. It is in the interests of any sufficiently large collective to ensure that the distinct talents and abilities of each individual in the collective are developed to the fullest extent possible, because only then can that individual contribute best to the wellbeing of the whole collective; individualism should be an ethic at the heart of collectivism as an economic ideal.

    Capitalism, on the other hand, does not reward or promote individual talents except where those talents serve the purpose of the capitalist class. Being a brilliant receptionist (or for that matter, a brilliant customer service dude at a fast food restaurant) will not lead to any great rewards, although there may be psychic rewards from helping people. But the capitalist “individualist” pressure is to “better yourself” by taking a higher-paid job, even if that job is less suited to your individual talents and abilities.

    There is one other dichotomy that seems to underlie the points raised in the OP. This is concerned with the proceeds from being an “individualist”, and the relationship to the rest of society.

    The OP seems to suggest that by being focussed on oneself, an individualist can then advance to a point at which the individual is an asset to the collective movement, whether as a motivator of others at the top, or by being an example for others to aspire to. It is implied that there is in left-wing movements, a disapproval of monetary desires, and that this is equated to a disapproval of acquisition. Acquisition is generally a good thing, however – you cannot do something with anything until you have acquired it. It is what you do with it after that that matters! It may surprise some people to know that Buddhist monks (renowned for their spiritual and collective mindset) are very practical when it comes to matters of acquiring funding and material assets. They do so because such things are important to a community; but it is using the acquired wealth for the benefit of the community that is the key factor.

    I think what is really the target of the disapproval (and I accept that many in left-wing movements make the confusion between this and acquisition) is accumulation. When one accumulates wealth, one puts it out of use, or uses it for the furtherance only of oneself and not of others. And, crucially, accumulation is the essence of capitalism. As Marx showed, capitalism is about the large-scale accumulation of wealth by the capitalist class, both in the form of frozen capital and liquid capital. As Nora says, capitalism functions on the basis of inequality, an that inequality is used to promote the ability of capitalists to accumulate. And the act of accumulation, creates the inequality.

    The idea of “regulation” of capitalism can only alter the steepness of the slope by which accumulation of capital occurs (and conversely, the rate at which inequality is promoted), it can never lift all people out of poverty, nor can it prevent capitalists from conducting their affairs as they please, to the detriment (and de-individualisation – *ouch* at the coinage, but anyway!) of the majority.

  15. What Holly, Renee, Nora, and La Lubu said.

    The global capitalist economic system totally de-individualizes people. People have already pointed out how it’s dependent on an underclass. Competition and the need to generate profit gives rise to massive exploitation of people in export processing zones (EPZs) around the world. In the Philippine EPZs, one of the difficulty of organizing workers is that they are so easy to replace. There will be other desperate people willing to work in sweatshop conditions for a pittance, so why bother with safe working conditions and a living wage? And those who still insist on organizing have a tendency to be disappeared.

    I’m not saying these things to guilt anyone about being all rah-rah for capitalism. I’m just trying to state the givens. EPZ workers are an example of how a global capitalist system de-individualizes and de-humanizes people in developing countries around the world. Their individual needs do not matter. This is NOT an isolated example.

    So occasionally, you will have superachievers make it, and they will be held up as examples of how this dominant global capitalist system generates good. But while women like Oprah or Sara Lee or Romero make it without personally doing the exploitation, they achieve their success within a system that is built on and perpetuates the de-humanization of women in countries like the Philippines.

    I agree that the goal should be that everyone, not just superachievers, get by. However, this cannot happen in an economic system that valorizes a group of individual achievers but at the same time demands that others–particularly those not privileged to be born in Europe or North America– sublimate their own individuality.

  16. Tanglad — the folks you are citing all said somewhat different things. One of them has mentioned being in favor of regulated capitalism as an imperfect but best-of-the-lot methodology, another is completely against capitalism. So it’s hard to respond to your comment.

    When someone mentions an alternative system that promotes creativity, stimulates excellence, and avoids a large underclass, then we should by all means work towards that. In the meantime, I will continue to maintain that women abstaining from efforts that are within our power, at different levels of privilege, to make the system work for us to the extent men are willing to do so, is not a good idea.

    SDE — I find it difficult to believe that you interpreted the OP to say “an individual’s (proper) efforts are concerned primarily with the benefit to the individual,” when it clearly states: “Certainly, while women, like men, have the right to try to excel, this should coexist with working as a team for objectives which would benefit all women” and “So why NOT individualism? Of course, that doesn’t mean we don’t recognize how lucky we are for being able to achieve it. Or that we don’t do as much as we reasonably can towards collective activism and giving.”

    I agree that accumulation is not a goal that is compatible with a healthy balance between individual and group interests. I see acquisition as a tool to promote economic, political, social and professional parity between men and women (as well as to bridge other divides). And I believe there should be a balance of both men and women who are acting on the grassroots level and within the power structure to address the gross disparities that exist.

    I recognize that many posts talking to (primarily) women about self interest and self empowerment, mixing in an unapologetic discussion of the green stuff, and talking in terms that suggest roles other than a subordinate, helping one, will be interpreted by some as stemming from unadulterated greed.

    Unfortunately, this is kind of a meta-demo of the OP.

  17. I meant that I agreed with their critiques regarding how capitalism as we have it set up now generates an underclass, how there’s no getting away from that. And I don’t think people who support this current dominant economic system are greedy. Just invested in it, or maybe they can’t imagine it any other way.

    I’m glad that women here have ways to individually benefit from a global capitalist system. That’s not something one can say for a whole other mass of women who are not privileged to be born here. I think it’s important to consider their individual needs and aspirations as well.

  18. And that any privilege we have is on the backs of another women. Any success we have in capitalism is perpetuating the system at a cost to other women.

    OK, that’s the deal: what happens?

    Well, I don’t much see the point for women to go to college, in that case. A four year degree, and certainly a grad degree, are only patriarchal tools to compete for MONEY or STATUS which would be individualist to aspire to. We can audit women’s studies classes and other humanities classes, but law, medicine, business, engineering, etc. are all part of the patriarchy. If we wish to do law or medicine purely pro bono, that is OK, but we cannot afford to go to law or med school if we can’t pay back our loans afterwards, so: let’s just forget that. We can get 2-year degrees, or none, and teach or volunteer our time.

    are you even THINKING? those of us that believe that the system of academia as it stands now, having absolutely nothing to do with actual guage of intelligence or teaching people things, for example, would want EVERYONE to stop participating in the bullshit system or do everything in their power to change the system. same for everything. WHAT WOULD BE THE POINT if ANYONE took part in it?

    SERIOUSLY this logic does not take a huge jump, y’all.

  19. @TANGLAD

    So occasionally, you will have superachievers make it, and they will be held up as examples of how this dominant global capitalist system generates good. But while women like Oprah or Sara Lee or Romero make it without personally doing the exploitation, they achieve their success within a system that is built on and perpetuates the de-humanization of women in countries like the Philippines.

    Excellent point. The idea that we live in a meritocracy is pushed by the ruling top1% though it is clearly a lie. Pull yourself up by the bootstraps mentality, work hard and the riches will be yours is bullshit. How many workers today are working 2 and 4 minimum wage jobs and still are unable to pay their rent. That is hard work and where does it leave them but on the verge of poverty living paycheck to paycheck.

  20. I find it difficult to believe that you interpreted the OP to say “an individual’s (proper) efforts are concerned primarily with the benefit to the individual,”

    It’s in this bit: “The OP seems to suggest that by being focussed on oneself, an individualist can then advance to a point at which the individual is an asset to the collective movement, whether as a motivator of others at the top, or by being an example for others to aspire to.” I read that as being the idea that somehow, by being primarily self-centred, a person can also be serving the common good, purely by being successful in themselves. you didn’t really seem to offer much of how that success was going to be helpful other than in those rather abstract terms.

    Another problem, as I said, is that capitalism is all about accumulation – it’s where the term “capital” originates! If you think accumulation is harmful, then how can you be in favour of capitalism? Capitalism is inimical to the objectives you espouse.

    When someone mentions an alternative system that promotes creativity, stimulates excellence, and avoids a large underclass, then we should by all means work towards that

    A very famous person called Karl Marx came up with just such a system. It’s just that everybody since Marx has twisted his words so the original idea was never implemented or brought into practice (Marx’s ideas had been effectively buried, by the “communists” by the time of the 1905 uprising, never mind the 1917 October Revolution – Stalin finished the job by creating the “official” readings that informed a lot of 20th Century debate on Marxism).

    Capitalism promotes creativity and stimulates excellence only in the privileged classes; the majority are given no chance to develop themselves. My description of a collective supporting and promoting the abilities of all its members is a lot closer to what Marx had in mind! I do not understand the concept of “a balance between individual and group interests” – as I explained, the group’s interests lie only in furthering to the maximum possible the development (not just the needs) of the individual! I suspect the question comes in the matter of allocating limited resources, and/or the related matter of mediating between conflicting interests of one individual with those of another individual.

    One more thought, on the idea that successful women can help their less privileged sisters: I believe Tony Benn once said something along the lines of, “it’s all very well trying to change things from the inside, but once you get on the inside and climb to the top, a lot of the time, things look just peachy the way they are!” (I’ve paraphrased slightly, and I may be mis-attributing the idea!) And it could be added, a lot of the time, in order to stay on the inside one must start to promote the system as it is, or else one finds onself ejected and plunged back to the outside. Thus, it is always, “we’ll help you when we’re a bit more secure”, and that is always going to be next year, not this year. That’s a concept that should be familiar to anyone aware of intersectionality! Yes, you do occasionally get those who manage to keep their principles intact when they get to the top, but there’s some question as to whether they are frequent enough occurrences as to make it worthwhile backing a system that screws so many others!

  21. SDE: since you link to something you said rather than something I said in trying to explain why I’m saying something, I don’t find that particularly convincing.

    If you read my post about capitalism and how I’d modify it, you will understand why your paragraph about accumulation is inaccurate.

    Further, I’d encourage you to read the post to hear some explanations of why Marx’s system doesn’t work. Holly, Exholt, Dan in Denver, and yours truly and humbly had a few comments to that effect, that might be worth a look.

    Further, “meet the new boss, same as the old boss” is a tired excuse for not encouraging women and minorities to aspire to certain roles. Not playing that, sorry.

  22. …that we realize that ever single exchange we make as westerners no matter how innocent it seems is predicated on exploiting another body.

    See, I often get stuck on this, Renee, because in the West, intellectuals talk about “West this” and “West that” in regards to exploitation, but I think that in reality, everyone exploits everyone else and centering our discussions of this on the West isn’t getting us anywhere. Who’s selling girls into slavery, in, say, Moldova? I can tell you right now that it’s not, for example, Americans.

    If the United States were suddenly annihilated tomorrow, do people honestly think that the world would be better off? No, the world will just do what it it always does.

    Throughout history, empires and great nations have risen and fallen. The United States is not special in that regard.

    So what can a good person do in the face of all this? I say, be noble, but be practical. I don’t think the two are always at odds with each other either. Some of the noblest folks I know are very practical people in their hearts. Others are not – they get the whole notion of abandoning everything in their lives and walking with Jesus, as it may (I know a lot of Christian volunteers and human rights workers, so that’s my skewed sample).

    I think the world needs both.

  23. well i’m just some disabled random chick without the ALMIGHTY DIPLOMA TO JUSTIFY HER EXISTANCE, so i take it at a case-by-case instance. it’s going ok! anyone who is enough of a human being to take me seriously even without the OMG CERTIFICATE THAT SAYS I MAY EVEN HAVE BRAIN CELLS at least agree with me that academia is crap, men and women, and this is mostly because many peple see that academia has done fuck all for them at least, and at worst made them suffer. and some of us have tried to sit out in whatever way we can (either by not attending or by not conforming to the standards of academia i.e. getting good grades or not going to a WOW PRIVATE UNIVERSITY or what have you) and we tell anyone who asks our reasons.

    of course i’m gonna be poor for the rest of my life and i won’t be able to make disgusting amounts of money or ‘be a capitalist’ or impress anyone, but you know that’s cool with me. all i know is i can live with myself knowing i haven’t betrayed my ethics and principles.

  24. of course that wasn’t even the point. i think most of us who believe what i do tell everyone, male or female, the same thing. of course, it seems that women are more likely to be progressive so maybe that’s why we tell women more sometimes. and of course the other point is that i don’t think we become equal by conforming to the standards that have been set for us by the oppressor. fuck all that’s done for us in the past. so no, it’s not gonna be ‘working for us’ by making us a lot of money like men or being respected like men or anything of the sort. i don’t think it should go that way.

  25. Hi Lorelei. My previous comment to Renee is presently stuck in moderation (and will be for a while, it’s morning in the Middle East, won’t be morning on the East Coast for some time), but I’d like to ask you a couple of questions:

    First of all, do you at all believe in a person’s ability and desire to choose their own path in life? We can talk about how much of what we choose is influenced by outside factors all we want, of course, but I believe that human self-determination, though limited, does play a role in every single life of every single person. Personally, I racked up an enormous debt for the chance to go to a good university. While I think that higher education in America is hideously overpriced, and hope that future generations won’t be milked for all their worth like I am being milked, I do not regret my decision.

    “…Decide what to do with the time that is given to you.” We all do it. And not all are going to make the same decision.

    Second of all, do you honestly claim that you don’t betray your ethics and principles? I think we all do it. I think it’s what makes us human. You may not betray them, as it were, by not aspiring to a diploma, but you certainly betray them in other ways.

    Finally, when you speak of this betrayal of ethics, do you not allow for the possibility that other people may see it differently? That, for some, getting a diploma is not going to feel like a betrayal, but something else might?

    Certainly these are rhetorical questions at best. Feel free to disregard.

  26. “. Not everyone who came from her background has the ability to wind up working for a top New York law firm, but don’t we take something away from her by failing to acknowledge that she had some pretty neat individual accomplishments?”

    this is my problem with your take on individualism. It’s not about blame, or about failing to respect people’s accomplishments. it’s not about how we feel about otehr people. Its, first of all, about the fact that if you look at the big picture, SYSTEMATICALLY, certain groups come out far behind others. That doesn’t mean that you can predict, when you meet an individual, how well they will do in the current system. But it does suggest something about how the system is set up overall. Women are systematically coming out behind, and certain groups of women systematically come out behind others, and of course it’s not only on gender grounds. these are PATTERNS.

    looking at things from the point of view of the individual obscures our ability to see larger patterns. That’s the main problem with individualism. It’s not that it is morally bad, necessarily, or that it isn’t useful when dealing with a single person to treat them as an individual. But when talking about how our society (or any society) works, or even more, when talking about how to change it for the better, individualism not only doesnt cut it, but it totally denies the way inequality is perpetuated, and naturalizes it. you simply cannot overcome social inequality through individualistic action, and an individualistic viewpoint.

  27. @ ripley, yes, you are exactly right: it’s about systems and patterns. but i would add that in fact it’s also about “how we feel about other people” – in my opinion, the tacit transformation of a systemic “value” (in this case, a hierarchical structure not concerned with the common good) into an individual/personal one that one adopts and then imposes further, is precisely how systems are perpetuated. i really hate it when people convince themselves and others that “individualism” is a positive character trait. where i live right now (not the u.s.), this belief completely shapes society as a whole, people and interpersonal interactions, and it’s amazing to me how unconsciously and uncritically accepted it is. i didn’t think that a more individualistic culture than in the u.s. existed, but it does… here, egotism really reigns supreme. and, speaking of “guilt”, what amazes me is not just that this all-pervasive unmitigated individualism exists, but how it’s considered a superior trait while values such as caring about others, placing others first in any way, relying on others and expecting others to rely on you are set up as the converse of “individualism” and viewed disdainfully as a weakness. and that’s the problem. living here has made me realize something about individualism-as-a-value: who says that one cannot be an “individualist” in the non-egotistical sense – driven, competent, talented… – AND a person who cares and works for the good of others, unless the important thing is to assign certain human qualities (such as being strong, unique, ambitious, able to do things on one’s own) to a certain ethos?! who says that you can show you’re strong, ambitious, etc. only if you focus on working for your own benefit and “advancement?” and who says that if you value the idea that people should do stuff for others, be able and want to rely on others can only mean that you’re weak or inferior?! these tacit assumptions are how systems/patterns are kept stagnant. and i’ve seen this type of unconscious value reinforcement in this thread several times. the thing is: as soon as you start “promoting” individualism, you’re essentially advocating for an ethos based on it. i believe others have said the same thing in different ways, but in a healthy society concerned with the rights of all people (or if you’re ultimately aiming towards such a society), the good aspects of “individualism” don’t need to be promoted: of course, people’s talents and abilities, their desire for betterment and their drive and potential for greatness, are admirable and wonderful. the problem is not really that anyone would ever think “betterment” is bad, but what this “betterment” means in a given society, really. in capitalism, it means moving up/ahead in an unfair system, at the expense of others.

    i’ve lived in a (totalitarian) “communist” system and two different uber-capitalistic ones on 2 different continents. i’ve never thought about it this way before, but the discussion here made me realize that even in the “communist” society i experienced, in which there was no such thing as an individual’s rights or the possibility of getting ahead as it’s understood in “western” society, the disfunctionality of society (at grassroots level) was perpetuated mostly through an “individualism” in its perhaps purest form: each individual was only concerned him/herself with their own personal wellbeing (which was dismal) and only did (the little that was possible) to “advance” (you could get a higher status in the party, or you could be an informer, or some such) with no thought to the collective good. perhaps this sounds surprising or paradoxical since the society was thoroughly “collectivist” in structure… but for all intents and purposes it actually wasn’t. the only difference between that attitude of pure “individualism” and that which i see around me now, in a democratic capitalist country (that’s also very proud of the “regulations” it has in place – which are much better than in the u.s. btw), is that in the “communist” state people didn’t really have much choice about being strictly egotistical, as doing anything other than “working with the system,” such as organizing, expressing dissent, etc., was stifled and forbidden. on the other hand, within a “democratic” capitalist system the idea that individualism is a superior value hinders not only movement-building, it’s a problem even within movements, activist groups… AND it makes people miserable. no wonder effective social justice movements and alternatives are so hard to come by. (but pockets of them do exist: primarily, they’re made by people who don’t “do” activism as a hobby or a “choice” or some such… they arise and exist out of necessity and dedication to nonindividualism as a value. and, in my opinion, the answer is not marx either: his theory is just as obsolete, and not conscious of intersectionalities, as that of “first wave” western feminists.)

    so in my view this issue is not even directly related to capitalism – although individualism-as-a-value is certainly a great tool to advance capitalism in all its unregulated OR “regulated” glory.

  28. Lorelai – by “how’s that working” I meant – how is the idea of women not taking part in the system to the extent men do working. I was not attempting to probe your personal situation, and I’m sorry if that was unclear. You’re correct that becoming like greedy white CEOs shouldn’t be the point. Gender parity is the point. I don’t think we get to achieve our larger goals without coming close to that.

    Natalia – great point about generalizing about exactly what activities constitute betrayals of ethics.

    Ripley – I acknowledged in the OP that certain groups systematically come out behind others. That’s exactly why, when it’s possible, and I also acknowledge that many times it isn’t, abstaining from achieving individual as well as collective goals holds us back: collectively. When you say “looking at things from the point of view of the individual obscures our ability to see larger patterns” you are grossly simplifying what I said. I won’t bore anyone by re-quoting the many times I talked about a balance between individual and group goals, and also agreed with you that individualistic action alone won’t overcome social inequality. If you’re going to argue against a strawargument, you’re wasting your and others’ time.

    r. – similarly to Ripley, you seem to initially equate what I’m saying as “rah rah systems exactly like the U.S. or worse.” I hope your statement about “who says that one cannot be an “individualist” in the non-egotistical sense – driven, competent, talented… – AND a person who cares and works for the good of others” acknowledges that this is exactly the point I am making. Further, I don’t claim that regulated capitalism is the be-all, end-all, but that given the realities of human nature, there likely isn’t a system that works better.

  29. I hope your statement about “who says that one cannot be an “individualist” in the non-egotistical sense – driven, competent, talented… – AND a person who cares and works for the good of others” acknowledges that this is exactly the point I am making

    actually, i don’t think it does, i think in many ways what i’m saying and what you’re saying are pretty opposite. in fact, you didn’t address any of my points, which apply to much of what you (among others) have said – i didn’t argue that you argued that regulated capitalism/”systems like the u.s. or worse” are the be-all, end-all… but i did want to add: in case it’s unclear, when i say “to assign certain human qualities (such as being strong, unique, ambitious, able to do things on one’s own) to a certain ethos”, all those different traits should be in quotes. i mean that promoting individualism within the system at some level goes hand in hand with certain positive traits being defined very narrowly in a way that reflects the dominant value system, and this creates the bind that even if you don’t want to promote those values, as an “individualist” you effectively do. also, i would add “pragmatism” to that list…

  30. r: The quoted section is in fact something I believe. Much of what I didn’t address in what you said isn’t really relevant to the OP. For example, “promoting individualism” is a too-oversimplified characterization of the OP to defend against sensibly. When we acknowledge that both individualism and collective action have their place, we can also acknowledge that certain positive traits have different meanings for different contexts.

    I must admit that in my own subjective context, long un-broken paragraphs with limited capitalization (hm… capitalism, capitalization) are something I don’t love or find easy to read. BUT hey, given that I’ve just acknowledged we should get beyond boxing in positive traits, I’ll try to fight my way through it.

    First, your comment about people convincing themselves “individualism”or “egotism” is a positive character trait – well, that would apply if I was emphasizing prioritizing it rather than including it. I also never characterized “guilt” as a weakness and emphasized its important part in acknowledging privilege.

    Next, I gave several examples of caring and working for the good of others as being PART of being strong and ambitions… so not quite sure what you are stating there.

    Finally, your statement that in communist societies, individualism is even more rampant – I’d say that kinda helps my point along, no?

  31. I should add to the above that I do believe both “egotism” and “guilt” can be positive and negative depending on quantity. My discussion is based on the relative circumstances of the population I’m addressing — feminists, collectively.

  32. Explaining my remarks that, “The OP seems to suggest that by being focussed on oneself, an individualist can then advance to a point at which the individual is an asset to the collective movement, whether as a motivator of others at the top, or by being an example for others to aspire to.” :-

    I got this from passages like this one:

    …some of us have the ability to lead, some of us have the ability to teach, some of us have the ability to create great art, music, literature. Some of us have the ability to make pots of money.

    Some of us will be their bosses. Our names will be on the polls in national elections. We’ll be living in the mansions reserved for university presidents, and not because we’re married to them.

    It all seems to be about “some of us”. Not how that benefits “all of us”. And the thing is, in capitalism, the “rest of us” who aren’t the “some of us” get left behind in the dirt.

    If you read my post about capitalism and how I’d modify it, you will understand why your paragraph about accumulation is inaccurate.

    Well, I think I commented there that capitalism just doesn’t work like that. The essential characteristic of capitalism is capital, which is accumulated wealth. As I explained above, that’s why I think capitalism is at odds with the objectives you claim. In your main explanation of what you mean by “regulated capitalism”, which I would probably term “mitigated capitalism”, you say:

    by “regulated capitalism” I mean liberal capitalism, in which the state has a role in providing infrastructure, health care, school funding, schools and bridges that cannot be efficiently implemented by private entities. The govt should also implement patents and copyrights to encourage innovation… I’m not for highly progressive taxes, though: no.

    It’s hard to see how this will magically erase the problems of capitalism or prevent capitalist accumulation from occurring (only the rate of progressive taxation mitigates against accumulation, and you said you’re against that!). In fact, it seems to me that experiments along these lines have been tried in Europe to no avail for the last century or so!

    I’d encourage you to read the post to hear some explanations of why Marx’s system doesn’t work.

    Exholt wrote,

    the more deeply I studied from the Marxist canon and its implementation on actual societies such as Mainland China … Instead of creating a classless society, Marx’ call for the “dictatorship of the proletariat” meant that successful revolutionaries were often able to supplant the ruling elite with themselves. Thus, the citizenry just exchanged one tyrannical ruling elite for another arguably more tyrannical one.

    There is no such thing as “the Marxist canon”, except what was created by Lenin and Stalin (who were definitely not putting into practice Marx’s ideas – see, for example, the analysis in Marx at the Millennium by Cyril Smith). So, the ideas that Exholt saw implemented were not Marx’s ideas, but Lenin/Stalinist ideas. As I said over there, the societies in the Soviet Union and the Far East (e.g. Mainland China) were in essence “regulated capitalism” as I understand the term, and certainly NOT Marxism or communism.

    Dan in Denver’s remarks just seemed so bizarrely connected with any concept of Marx’s ideas that I recognise that I don’t know where to start in explaining how they’re just wrong. But here’s the biggest clue: both Marxism and Capitalism involve investing too ensure the growth of wealth for the future. However, Capitalism involves investing it in “frozen capital” (where it is useful only to the capitalist investor); Marxism involves investing it in living people (where it is useful to everybody). That’s what I was talking about when I said, “it is in the collective’s best interests to further the individuals’ interests”.

    Marx’s ideas were rooted in the conceptions of the 19th Century, and although Marx continued to revise his ideas until his death, as he learned more about the world, his ideas cannot help but be rooted in the “classical” mechanical view of the world that prevailed (I use “classical” in the physics sense of the word, i.e. that the world operates in such a way that when you know where everything is and where it’s going, you can predict the outcome – this is as opposed to the quantum view, which is that it is impossible to know those things simultaneously, and individual events are inherently unpredictable). We need to re-examine Marx’s original writings, and update them. I firmly believe that you’ll get a lot further towards a just, fair and equitable society (and, yes, in contradiction to Dan in Denver, one in which there is plenty of wealth to go around!) by reforming Marxism than by reforming capitalism.

    Further, “meet the new boss, same as the old boss” is a tired excuse for not encouraging women and minorities to aspire to certain roles. Not playing that, sorry.

    Well, I think it’s a reason to be suspicious of any reformer who wants to climb to the top, frankly. Reform has much more often been forced upon the ruling classes from outside. Sure, aspire away, but don’t pretend it’s some noble calling for The Cause, cos people will just figure that you sold them out when you get to the top, unless you’re one of the very few who somehow manage to cling to their ideals and also not be ejected from upper echelons. I don’t think people should feel guilty for their success in their chosen field, but also, it’s nothing to be proud of unless it provides clear tangible benefits to others.

  33. each individual was only concerned him/herself with their own personal wellbeing (which was dismal) and only did (the little that was possible) to “advance” (you could get a higher status in the party, or you could be an informer, or some such) with no thought to the collective good. perhaps this sounds surprising or paradoxical since the society was thoroughly “collectivist” in structure… but for all intents and purposes it actually wasn’t. the only difference between that attitude of pure “individualism” and that which i see around me now, in a democratic capitalist country (that’s also very proud of the “regulations” it has in place – which are much better than in the u.s. btw), is that in the “communist” state people didn’t really have much choice about being strictly egotistical, as doing anything other than “working with the system,” such as organizing, expressing dissent, etc., was stifled and forbidden.

    Also, not everyone can even aspire to join the ruling national communist party, much less advance in it. If one’s pre-revolutionary family background was deemed “bourgeois” or otherwise suspect…….categorizations that were often changed and manipulated by the state for political reasons….forget it. Moreover, with membership in the Communist party and/or perceptions of a given citizen’s “party loyalty” through whatever arbitrary rubric being privileged above everyone else, too many incompetent or otherwise un/underqualified individuals were promoted into positions which required skills and capabilities far beyond what they were able to provide. In China’s case, it was one of the factors which led to The Great Leap Forward where the misallocation of human and natural resources to “manufacture steel” to exceed the production of Western industrialized countries led to the starvations of millions of Chinese in its aftermath….notwithstanding the denials and platitudes of a few Chinese and American die-hard Maoists….even when the Chinese Communist Party and mainland historians have already admitted this for the last couple of decades.

    A similar pattern existed during the Cultural Revolution where one’s “good” family background, perceived party loyalty, and membership in the Chinese Communist Party was so privileged and actual concerns about skills and competence decried as “bourgeois” and “capitalist roadsterism” that the resulting social chaos and massive persecution of those who were from “poor family backgrounds”*…..or even those who were competent or had skills meant that Mainland China’s economic, technical, scientific, and educational institutions were effectively shut down for around 10 years. Even when the educational institutions were reopened during the late 1970’s, the privileging of “family background” and perceived party loyalty over actual academic qualifications and skills (i.e. basic literacy) was such that the educational outcomes of those university graduates were not only well-below those of their pre-Cultural Revolutionary counterparts on average due to the decade-long social chaos, but also that there was a wide variation in educational attainment ranging from qualified to barely literate.

    Moreover, those who were persecuted for being part of “bad family backgrounds” and/or perceived party disloyalty were understandably angry at those who facilitated the persecution, brutalization, and even deaths of family and friends. On the other hand, most of those who joined the Red Guard movements which facilitated the same ended up being quite disillusioned when they found that their enthusiastic joining of such movements not only did not usher in a new Maoist inspired ‘socialistic paradise”….but ended up resulting in China’s decade-long stagnation and the shame which comes with the knowledge of having persecuted, brutalized, and even killed many who were subsequently regarded as victims of Maoist excesses.

    This is one reason why the Chinese generational contemporaries of the American babyboomer generation regarded the Cultural Revolution period (1966-1976) and the years leading up till 1979 as a “wasted period” and their generation….the “lost generation” as most of them were affected by the effective decade-long shutdown of educational institutions which had a severely detrimental effect on career and social prospects later on….

    Experiencing this period is also the reason the vast majority of mainland Chinese I’ve met have become quite disillusioned with the legitimacy of Marxism/Maoism and no longer take it seriously beyond going through the perfunctory motions to comply with Chinese Communist Party mandates** in educational institutions up to university-level and in public-sector work environments.

    Moreover, even the Chinese Communist Party no longer attempts to push Marxist/Maoism nearly as heavily as they did from the 1950’s-late 1970’s as they realize that the legitimacy of such a system was not only undermined in the eyes of their people….including many party members….but also inconsistent with the market-oriented economic reforms that were implemented by Deng Xiaoping in 1979 and accelerated during the 1990’s.

    * My great-aunt and uncle were persecuted on both basis…..”poor family background” and had competence and skills and science professors in Physics and Agricultural Science respectively.

    ** A form of cultural performance to save some face for the “Chinese Communist Party”.

  34. SDE: of course, not everyone has the same aptitudes. But if you’re suggesting those who have aptitudes in various areas aren’t benefiting others, then you don’t watch the Olympics, know anyone who’s needed surgery, or care about third world women who’ve built businesses based on microloans via the Grameen foundation.

    Re what will magically erase the problems of capitalism – regulation will go far but I don’t think there is any magic solution.

    “I don’t think people should feel guilty for their success in their chosen field, but also, it’s nothing to be proud of unless it provides clear tangible benefits to others.” I agree. But who’s the judge of that? If your success feeds your family and helps with medical care for ailing relatives, that’s not a tangible benefit? Sure, we should all look outside our inner circle to the extent possible. But if the requirements for women to feel we deserve to achieve are stricter than those for men, I’ll repeat once more, we will never achieve parity, which will hamper our philanthropic objectives. Contribution requires BOTH grassroots action and influence within the system.

    Exholt – thanks for the perspective. I agree, the idea that other systems hold the answers for a utopian equality is blue sky.

    Latoya –thanks! I’m looking forward to that. You’ve nailed doing the long post that captures the eyeballs, so even an epic novel here would be welcome, but I can be patient!

  35. This is where I”m like…”We’re having a philosophical discussion, thus, in order to have a conversation that does more than standard dorm-think, we gotta be firm about definitions.”

    I’m still not sure about *what* definition of individualism, and *what* definition of capitalism we’re actually talking about. I’m having a hard time understanding many of the posts as a result of that.

    Now, beyond the meta.

    I feel that Octagalore is conflating the definition of individualism with the concept of “right of self determination”.

    Mirriam-Webster defines individualism as:
    1 a (1): a doctrine that the interests of the individual are or ought to be ethically paramount; also : conduct guided by such a doctrine (2): the conception that all values, rights, and duties originate in individuals b: a theory maintaining the political and economic independence of the individual and stressing individual initiative, action, and interests; also : conduct or practice guided by such a theory

    But what Octogalore’s post reference towards are much more closely aligned with what historians and philosophers call methodological positivism, and its more well known descendants–objectivism and american (rugged)hyper-individualism. It has absolutely nothing at all to do with self-determination, respect for a person’s dignity or quirks. She, as most of the people who like atomistic (postivist) approaches, views the matrix of actionable personality as something that can be altered by people acting as individuals. Hence, she might have difficulty seeing it any other way. However, dignity, self-determination, tolerance of individuality…these are all things that are pursued from a societal matrix–through the use of schools, familial institutions, government institutions, so forth, and so on.

    but i did have a chuckle at her ideal of a capitalist vanguard.

  36. octogalore: i’m afraid you didn’t understand what i was saying… i never argued that guilt was/was not a weakness or that in communist societies individualism is “even more rampant” (?!). and i use “promoting individualism” to refer precisely to the conventional stance that “individualism has its place” – yes, “individualism” has its place (already), and that place is *way ahead* in the scheme of things. part of my basic point was that it seems to me if you’re interested at all in changing the scheme of things then you don’t need to “promote” individualism at all… the positive aspects of “individualism” are not really related to individualism or non-individualism per se (or capitalism or non-capitalism) – it just serves the status quo, whatever it may be, to encourage people to think of their own good and the greater/common good as completely separate, even antagonistic. they’re not just words, either. this is how collective action comes to be thought of as a hobby or a luxury, rather than something that’s essential for us individually as well as a society. and that’s how things stagnate (as women moving up the patriarchal ladder is still stagnation: it’s ok, if somebody’s going to be there then let’s by all means increase female representation, i’m contributing to that myself in a field that’s still male dominated, but that‘s not really progress, nor does the better representation ultimately benefit any of us individually as well as collectively except if we define “individual vs. collective” in the dominant way). but one thing we can do is subvert the value systems: for instance, be a scientist if you’re able and want to but refuse to subscribe to unethical practices or the egotistical, scientist-as-hero language and attitudes; and if you find that maximum success means perpetuating those value systems, then choose not to perpetuate them and not to be that kind of “successful,” because it’s not worth it, individualism or no. and most importantly: if perhaps women are now more likely than men to make those kinds of choices not to be “successful,” in any kind of field, that’s not what we should work to change.

    the point was that separating out “individualism” as a value is already playing into a very clear scheme of action/direction of movement within the system. i explained most of this in my first comment, and if it wasn’t clear it might be because of the way i write but also because it’s not a very simple or obvious concept. i think if anything i was adding more complexity, not trying to oversimplify any argument. so if you think what i commented is irrelevant, octogalore, perhaps it’s not really because it “objectively” is. i dunno. i do think that your observation about your lack of love for my way of writing was not strictly necessary.

  37. There is no such thing as “the Marxist canon”, except what was created by Lenin and Stalin (who were definitely not putting into practice Marx’s ideas – see, for example, the analysis in Marx at the Millennium by Cyril Smith). So, the ideas that Exholt saw implemented were not Marx’s ideas, but Lenin/Stalinist ideas. As I said over there, the societies in the Soviet Union and the Far East (e.g. Mainland China) were in essence “regulated capitalism” as I understand the term, and certainly NOT Marxism or communism.

    Keep in mind that Karl Marx himself cited the Paris Commune of 1871 as a real life example of “dictatorship of the proletariat.” He was, however, quite critical of the fact they were not harsh enough in dealing with “reactionaries” and not centralizing decisionmaking making powers to ensure it would enter a more revolutionary direction.

    Lenin was even more harsh on this point which was possibly one of the reasons he argued in favor of a “revolutionary vanguard” that would “represent” workers’ interests…..and Mao’s adaptation of this concept toward making the CCP the “vanguard” of the workers and peasant classes.

    In short, by advocating an economic and political system which allows one class or a supposed “vanguard” group to seize absolute power without much in the way of accountability checks and also being unapologetically for majority rule above everyone else, Marx failed/didn’t care to account for the possibility that once this new ruling class has taken power……that instead of instituting measures to allow for the “withering of the state” so his vision of “Communism” may result….what ended up happening was that these new ruling groups found they enjoyed being the ruling elite and thus, did whatever they could to preserve their status at the expense of everyone else. Hence, the exchange of one group of tyrants for another.

    Moreover, this lack of tolerance for dissent even in Marx’ envisioning of the “dictatorship of the proletariat” is really telling…..especially when it is not only shown from its manifestations in Marxist derived regimes, but my own experiences dealing with too many socio-economically privileged mostly White Marxist/Maoist classmates at my undergrad whose response to any disagreements…even outside of Marxist/Maoist ideology tended to devolve into extreme defensiveness and virulent ad hominem attacks such as “capitalist pig”, my family deserved the treatment it received during the 100 Flowers/Cultural Revolution, and a long string of yelled expletives.

    Thankfully, I could take solace in a supportive faculty…even the avowed Marxist ones…..and the fact some of those socio-economically privileged Marxist/Maoist classmates ended up flunking the courses they were supposed “experts”….some to the point of being academically suspended or even expelled from the college.

  38. r: I was actually citing exholt on the discussion of communism, not you. Also, it seems our central disconnect is that economic and professional parity for women is not something you feel is important. I don’t see that gap being bridged by further debate. Thanks for contributing.

  39. to exemplify what i’m talking about, take this quote:

    I’ve heard suggestions within TWF that any step women are able to take is purely based on privilege, rather than initiative, guts, creativity, or anything else individual. But by asking women to think in terms of a homogeneous collective, …

    even aside from the argument itself, according to how this is put we can understand that individualism = initiative, guts, creativity etc., while collective spirit = the opposite of all that + homogeneity. why? and, in this value system, what is the likely “place” that collective action will occupy? and how come this value system coincides with the dominant one?

  40. The problem with your first analogy is that it fails to consider the “My best friend is black/gay/whatever” bigots, who are certainly individualist bigots. There are people who believe that as a category, group X has characteristic Y, but as an individualist, they may be friends with people who meet their standards as not being enough like group X. Taken alone, it doesn’t sound terribly racist to think something like, “Most blacks are criminals and talk like gangsters, but I’m friends with John, who is black, because he is not a criminal and he speaks properly.” It may sound like the person speaking is friends with the same sort of people regardless of skin color. However, in this statement, ebonics and criminality are explicitly linked. The speaker ASSUMED that John was criminal upon seeing him because he defaults to assuming that blacks are criminals. The burden of proof was placed on JOHN, who was expected to “prove” that he was not criminal by dressing and speaking like a white person.

    I should also note that the idea of individualism itself is culturally specific. It is traditionally (white, male) American to assume that we are all independent actors who have the free will to make decisions. Other cultures do not agree with this notion, understanding that every decision is made within a social fabric, and that we decide within the context of circumstance and relationship.

    Many feminists choose to adopt a less individualistic paradigm than the dominant one, because women are one of the groups that gets traditionally shafted by it. Women frequently make decisions based on concern for those around them, and have less individualist values that lead them to consider and weigh heavily the implications of their actions on others (because they see the social sphere as interwoven rather than individual). Men frequently discount this interconnectedness and pursue precisely what they want, which leads to women making compromises and men making singular decisions. This reinforces an unequal power dynamic.

    You may say that women seeking power in an individualist way solves this, but that is a heavy burden to place on women: to reject their cultural values in favor of a more callous (if more empowered in some ways) one. It also places the problem on the WOMEN, who are not being good effective individualists, rather than on the MEN, who are being inconsiderate.

    Even if a touch of individualism would do most women some good in terms of confidence, guilt relief, etc., I think interdependence better preserves that balance than individualism does. Individualism requires that everyone be individual first and foremost. Interdependence allows people to be community first, and you can’t have community without individuals within it. Individuality should be respected and diversity appreciated within the communal group, but the only having a mutual goal of meeting everyone’s needs can really provide supportive and rewarding community for the “individual” to act within.

  41. Octo, I LOVE this post – but you probably knew I would. I remain utterly confounded by the voices within feminism that continue to shame women for achieving economic success, political success, workplace success, etc. How is that progress, if none of us feel we should strive to achieve such things, or at the very least feel supremely guilty when we do?? Fuck that. Economic leverage is IMPORTANT, because with money you can help others. Like it or not, we live in a capitalist system, and if we can make that work to our advantage and thereby help other women, let’s do it!! And unlike some feminists I don’t think capitalism is bad. I think it’s been poorly implemented (due, among other things, to inequality among the sexes and races) in many cases, but I don’t think socialism is the utopia it’s often made out to be. Your post nails why.

  42. natalia —

    listen, i’m not saying people should be ideological machines and i think you may only have one life (i believe in reincarnation but what the hell) so you should do what you’ve gotta do. but i ALSO don’t think that anyone should be sitting on their fucking ass saying that it’s ALL GOOD IN THE HOOD when they do all this shit they do because it benefits them and their family and especially go so far as to say that by, say, making lots and lots of money when other people cannot, they are helping other oppressed people (????????), or, oh, i do charity now so it’s all okay. i don’t think charity really helps beyond putting a penny-sized dent in the suffering and oppression of people, though, so whatever. people say they don’t wanna feel guilty for their decisions. i don’t see what is so wrong in saying, yes, by doing this, i am feeding the system and probably making shit worse.

    yes i have betrayed my principles. if you read my blogpost you will see that i say that i am only capable of certain types of rebellion that only stand so far as i hope that others will see them and it’ll make them think a bit. but for example i hate the bureaucracy but i have applied for disability. and i feel shitty for it, but until the libertarians start doing their massive amounts of charity to make up for governmental welfare lololol, it’s what i’m gonna have to do to EAT.

    but i’m SORRY, people who become lawyers and doctors and CEOs or what have you do not NEED TO MAKE SO MUCH MONEY. i’m not saying that one should not become one of those things if it makes them happy and it’s what they’re good at, but for example, i have never seen a monetary breakdown of WHY (non-pro-bono/low-fee) lawyers need to charge so much for their services. how much of it goes towards transport and rent for your office and filing fees and keeping the air conditioning in your waiting room and paying your paralegal and whatever? does it REALLYREALLYREALLY require you making 90,000$/yr+? i don’t really care how ‘hard’ your work is. i’m getting carpal tunnel from my fucking work and i make the pay for 3 days as a lawyer in two weeks. doctors, too. what is all that money going towards, really, besides malpractice? because they’ve been making an asston of money even before this trend. i understand that machines are expensive, for example, but shit my father installs them and half on NYC and northern NJ doctors owe him money and he can’t get people who make 1.5 million dollars/yr to give him $5,000 so who the fuck knows.

    but indeed, these people will probably make it just fine if they charged less. i understand that say doctors do not control their own pay necessarily, it may be the practice they belong to and whatever. but jesus christ i do data entry for insurance claims and i see well-child visits get charged 60$ (and that’s just how much insurance is paying, so with co-pay it’s about 80-100$ depending on your locale it seems) and it’s like, holy christ, $100 for you so i can take a day off of work so you can look in my child’s ears?! fuck’s sake!

    i have no problem with people leading ‘comfortable lives’ so they can support their families without losing their heads. but i think the modern concept of ‘comfortable’ is already extravagant and i do certainly have problems with people making EXTRAVAGANT amounts of money. and i’m tired of people acting like all victimized because THEY CAN’T HELP THAT THE JOB THEY WANNA DO MAKES SO MUCH MONEY OMG. i bet you could, in any case.

    i also don’t think that going to medical and law and general grad school should be so expensive.

    what the fuck ever i’m not the right person to be arguing this sort of thing.

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