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Some thoughts on homosexuality and Judaism

Consider these two very basic facts: the Bible condemns homosexuality, yet lots of Jews are homosexuals. How is Judaism to understand these two things in light of each another, as well as in light of modernity?

For this essay I will only deal directly with male homosexuality, since that is the kind of relationship that the Bible expressly prohibits. (I will take it as read that the prohibitions on male homosexuality extend also to female homosexuality, since they have been understood that way by both Jews and Christians for centuries. Don’t give me any nonsense about the Talmud simply dismissing lesbianism as “foolishness”; female homosexuality is tolerated just the same as male homosexuality in virtually all religiously observant communities today: not at all. Whether or not this is supported by the texts is irrelevant.) I don’t aim to be exhaustive in this essay; only to give something of a flavour of several different methods of dealing with the specific Biblical prohibition of homosexuality, as well as to explore some modern approaches to the problem as practiced by Jewish communities today.

The primary source text for the biblical prohibition of homosexuality is Leviticus 18:22, which occurs in a long list of forbidden sexual relationships (all translations are my own):

וְאֶ֨ת־זָכָ֔ר לֹ֥א תִשְׁכַּ֖ב מִשְׁכְּבֵ֣י אִשָּׁ֑ה תּֽוֹעֵבָ֖ה הִֽוא׃

You shall not lie with a man in the manner of laying with a woman; this is an abomination.

This prohibition is echoed two chapters later in the so-called “holiness code” at Leviticus 20:13, in another long list of forbidden sexual relationships:

וְאִ֗ישׁ אֲשֶׁ֨ר יִשְׁכַּ֤ב אֶת־זָכָר֙ מִשְׁכְּבֵ֣י אִשָּׁ֔ה תּֽוֹעֵבָ֥ה עָשׂ֖וּ שְׁנֵיהֶ֑ם מ֥וֹת יוּמָ֖תוּ דְּמֵיהֶ֥ם בָּֽם׃

As for a man who lies with a man in the manner of laying with a woman, they have both committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon themselves.

Throughout history, there have been people who have engaged in this kind of forbidden relationship—the very fact that the Bible deems it necessary to prohibit testifies to the fact that people did engage in it, for whatever reason. But today, in a culture where a category of “homosexual” exists, with which people make their primary sexual identification, the Bible’s prohibition needs to be reexamined and rethought: this holds true for both the most religiously observant person alongside the most liberal individual. And this is the challenge of modernity: assuming the Bible’s injunctions and prohibitions still hold some meaning for us today, how do we understand them in light of our current world?

Essentially, it all comes down to one of three positions: (1) do you ignore the Bible for the sake of modernity, (2) do you ignore modernity for the sake of the Bible, or (3) do you try to find some “happy medium” between these two positions? I will argue that both (2) and (3) are endeavours doomed to failure, while (1), though workable and well-attested in the modern world, has its own set of problems.

Position (2), that is, ignoring the modern knowledge of that homosexuality is not unnatural in favour of the Bible’s contention that it is an “abomination”, is employed in virtually all extremely observant communities, both Jewish and Christian. People who reject the modern understanding of homosexuality and its origins in nature will often reject the underlying science as flawed, or not “Torah-true”, or what have you. There is no way for homosexual behaviour to be accepted with this type of thinking: since homosexuality is not a part of nature, it is by definition aberrant, and the Bible—which is taken to be divine and inerrant—defines it as an “abomination”: therefore, homosexuality should be shunned and punished.

Position (1), on the other hand—that the Bible should be ignored in favour of modern understanding—poses its own set of problems. If one truly believes it, one must follow it in every instance. What’s the use of holding, for instance, that the prohibition on homosexuality should be overturned because science holds homosexuality to be natural, but the Biblical account of the creation of the universe should be taken as true? This reduces to position (3)—the “happy medium”—and, as we will see, should be dealt with for its arbitrariness. So let us define position (1) as complete rejection of the Bible’s truth. This solves the problem of homosexuality, in a way: since the Bible is not true, there is no problem with homosexuality from a religious perspective. Yet there are problems here: how would a religious community based on the untruth of its fundamental text survive? What would it mean to be a Jew who disbelieves in the Bible? How would matters of ritual and law be adjudicated? (There are answers to all of these questions; I will leave them as an exercise for the reader.)

However, the most attractive position, on the surface—position (3), finding a “happy medium” between literal acceptance of the Bible and acceptance of modernity—is extremely complicated and requires a great deal of mental gymnastics to function. If we are to say, for example, that the Bible is “divinely inspired” but not “the literal word of God”, who is to say which parts of the Bible are correct and which are not? Homosexuality might be condemned by one believer in this methodology but condoned by another: whose decision is it? This method may work for some people, but it will not work for others: everybody will choose different things, based primarily—and this is key—upon what he or she wants to be true. If one person wants to permit homosexuality, he or she will rule that the bits of the Bible prohibiting homosexuality were the product of a different time and should therefore not be taken as true. But another person will assert that these parts are in fact divinely composed and are therefore binding. When individuals or communities make these judgments for themselves, the results are an arbitrary smorgasbord of what people wish the Bible said rather than what it does say.

But this isn’t the only way of attempting to find a “happy medium”. One of the tricks that is sometimes employed by people who wish to retain some sense of the Bible’s truth while themselves permitting homosexuality goes something like this. The verses in question use the phrase “in the manner of laying with a woman” to refer to the prohibited sexual act. The thinking goes: women have a vagina, men do not—therefore the act in question is totally different, and homosexual intercourse is not “in the manner of laying with a woman”. Again, while this kind of sophistry works for some people, there are two major problems with it. First, it’s painfully obvious what the verses actually mean, especially when taken in their context of lists of prohibited sexual relationships. Second, again, the efforts to find a “happy medium” reveal themselves to be completely arbitrary. They are reflections, as I have said, of what the individual making the judgments about the text wish it said rather than what it does say. All the wishing in the world won’t make the Bible not say that homosexuality is an immoral abomination.

Another way of dealing with the problem is to recommend celibacy: since the Bible only prohibits homosexual intercourse but not homosexual attraction, one may be homosexual as long as one does not have gay sex. The thinking goes that everybody has his or her own “crosses to bear”, as it were, and that a desire to engage in homosexual sex could be one of them. Some very influential people—including both gay and straight rabbis from various walks of Jewish life, including the Orthodox world—advocate this view, at least in part. Yet this position is a disaster. This punishment of dooming homosexuals to a life without any sex at all, which is mentally, spiritually, and physically oppressive. What an awful judgment to impose on human beings.

There is another way of dealing with this problem: homosexuals may be exempted from the requirement to follow the Biblical prohibition on homosexual intercourse because it would be an undue burden on them. In Jewish law, one may be exempted from an obligation on the grounds that it would be an undue burden. (This is how, incidentally, women are traditionally absolved of their obligations to follow positive time-bound commandments, such as daily prayer: it would be an undue burden for them to follow these regulations, since they’re supposedly too busy keeping house to pay attention to the proper times for prayer, etc.) Using this logic, homosexuals may be exempted from their requirements not to engage in homosexual intercourse because to forbid a human being from ever having sex constitutes an undue burden. This position is somewhat attractive because it recognizes that gay people are human beings too, and does not attempt to deprive them of their right to have sex. Yet its drawback is that it seems to view homosexuality as some kind of disability that entitles one to special dispensation to disobey the law of the Bible. While this approach does produce an inclusive effect, it reinforces the continual problem of second-class citizenship for homosexuals within the religious community.

There are many more ways of dealing with this problem; I won’t go into them all. (A good exploration of some of them, as well as a fuller explanation of the history behind the prohibition, can be found in Rabbi Steven Greenberg’s book Wrestling with God and Men, although I disagree with the conclusions put forward by this otherwise brave and forthright gay Orthodox rabbi.) But all these approaches to homosexuality boil down to one of the three positions I have outlined. Either you accept the Bible as the binding word of God, or you don’t, or you bend over backwards to try to make your own vision acceptable in terms of a millennia-old tradition that does not share your values or your vision of which things should be permissible.

And there is another problem on top of all of this. What if you have a religiously observant person who is a homosexual who wishes to remain religiously observant and be a participant in a religiously observant community, and yet transgress a law that the rest of that community views as binding? This problem is explored in the marvellous documentary Trembling Before G-d, and it has no real solution (besides celibacy and perpetual refusal to admit one’s homosexuality openly). The obvious question—why don’t these people join a denomination of Judaism that permits homosexuality?—is not even really a question to many of the people involved: they were raised Orthodox or Hasidic or some in some other kind of observant community, and that is where they wish to remain. Short of denomination-wide change in their religious communities, they will have to live in secret, in un-acceptance, in intolerance.

For Reform Judaism, which represents the largest number of American Jews, this has not really been a problem: since the Torah’s laws are not seen as legally binding, the prohibition on homosexuality can be safely ignored. And indeed, Reform Judaism (along with smaller liberal denominations like Reconstructionism and Renewal Judaism) is where gay and lesbian Jews thrived the best over the past few decades. For Orthodox Judaism (largely), this is also a non-issue: since the Torah’s laws are binding, homosexuality is regarded as illegal. However, there are a courageous few, like the aforementioned Rabbi Greenberg, who are openly gay and Orthodox—yet their numbers are small and the position they represent is not widely accepted at all within Orthodoxy. As for the middle-of-the-road Conservative Movement, it still maintains policies of some ambiguity: openly gay and lesbian rabbis are now ordained, but the decision of whether or not to perform gay marriages or commitment ceremonies, as well as decisions on what honours should be allowed to gay and lesbian Jews in the synagogue services, should be left up to individual rabbis and congregations. (Part of the reason for this ambiguity is the way the Conservative Movement’s Committee on Jewish Law and Standards is set up: any teshuvah, or religious responsum, that is officially adopted by the Committee becomes valid halachah, or Jewish law, within Conservative Judaism. Therefore, one teshuvah may be adopted permitting ordination of gay rabbis and another may be adopted forbidding it, and both are valid Conservative Judaism. Confused? So are many Conservative Jews.)

So there we have it. It’s still very much an open question as to how Judaism will regard its Jews who happen to be homosexuals, but what we have seen is that there is everywhere, at least, a framework for attacking this question. It will be interesting to see, as science continues to move ahead with the notion that homosexuality is not a “lifestyle choice” but an inborn characteristic and is therefore not “unnatural”, whether and how Judaism will be able to keep up.


81 thoughts on Some thoughts on homosexuality and Judaism

  1. If this is simply privilege showing, let me know, but why is it inherently a problem for different people to have different interpretations of which parts of the bible are literal and which parts are not? It doesn’t lead to an immediate codified stance, but frankly I can only see that as increasing the chance that individual and local community issues would be taken into account.

  2. I am not Jewish, neither do I know any Jewish people, so I am asking this from my ignorance, and not from a desire to offend (Also, I am nonreligious): Why, rather than try to bend and twist the scriptures into something they aren’t (that is, tolerant and humane), would Jewish homosexuals not just reject the scriptures and the religion outright? I understand that this can cause family and friend problems, and exclude JHs from a community that has sheltered them henceforth (as long as they didn’t profess their orientation?). But how much more stressful is it to try to live this double life, to try to make the religion into something it isn’t and will probably never be? Why not come out as a homosexual and a non-Jew at the same time?

    Maybe that’s oversimplistic. But then, I also don’t understand how anyone not of European descent could honestly look at Christianity’s history and still go to church on Sundays.

    I guess I just don’t understand why one would undergo the torment of being someone his/her own religion doesn’t like, rather than free themselves of the whole mess. Can you shed some light on this for me?

  3. I’m not Jewish, but my understanding is that it’s clumsy to say the least to use the word ‘Bible’ when you mean ‘Torah’ in talking about Judaism.

  4. Years ago, outside London’s most orthodox synagogue, on Rosh Hoshanah, gay protestors waved banners and placards and handed out pink triangle stickers to passers-by, including Orthodox Jews going into the service.

    The occasion of the protest was something vilely homophobic the UK’s Chief Rabbi had said.

    I’ve never forgotten what one Jewish woman said, as she took the pink triangle sticker from a protester and stuck it to her baby’s jacket:

    “After all, you never know.”

  5. eruvande, I’m not religious myself, but I’m led to understand that some religious traditions (and I think there is a strong strain of this in Jewish scholarship, if I’m not mistaken) are very much about interpreting and re-interpreting what holy scriptures mean, and how they should best be applied to the current circumstances, over centuries and centuries.

    If you see that as the mission of religious scholars and of the people who help teach lay members of the faith about how to believe and live, then the existence of homosexual clergy, rabbis, people of faith makes a lot more sense. They’re part of a historical current that is all about slow change over time, preserving tradition while also growing it. There is nosuch thing as “make the religion into something it isn’t and will probably never be” if you see your religion (even an organized religion) as a work in progress, struggling to understand and interpret and apply the divine to mortal life.

  6. Thank you, Holly. That seems like a healthy way to see one’s religion, and I wish more people would adopt it!

  7. “Consider these two very basic facts: the Bible condemns homosexuality, yet lots of Jews are homosexuals. How is Judaism to understand these two things in light of each another, as well as in light of modernity?”

    Simple; the primitive tribesmen who wrote the mishmash of fairy tales, heavily biased historical accounts, and repressive/obsessive regulations which, after countless edits and re-edits, would eventually turn into the Bible as we know it today, were a bunch of petty homophobes (among other things). The angry, authoritarian god of the Old Testament reflects the character of its creators.

    So if you’re gay, a woman, or simply a sane person, just forget about the frickin Bible, m’kay? Don’t waste your time trying to make sense out of nonsense. You are NOT ‘Judaism’, ‘Christianity’, ‘Islam’, or any other archaic memeset. You need religion like a fish needs a bicycle. Free your mind, take that pacifier out of your mouth, and enjoy the freedom of a godless universe.

  8. Notably, there is absolutely no prohibition, condemnation or language whatsoever addressing sexuality, be it heter or homo, in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

  9. Because some people honestly believe in a deity and think that their religion is a good way to relate to him/her/it, eruvande. When you are passionately committed to a philosophy, a worldview, and a set of practices, it’s not so easy to drop.

    Sam, can you talk more about the Hebrew behind “abomination”? What it means, how it’s translated elsewhere, etc.

  10. I’m Christian, and in my church, homosexuality is accepted. It is not considered sinful, evil, or anything like that. We marry gay people, and they are welcome in ministry.

    How? How is this possible given the Bible’s teachings? Well, it’s simple: at the time, homosexuality wasn’t understood as it is now. Slavery was explicitly okay according to the Bible too. We have grown, and understand that it is not okay to treat people like that.

    The Bible is a set of myths and stories and teachings of the people before us. We’re to learn from it. Not blindly follow the exact (probably mistranslated) words, but rather honour the spirit of the teachings.

  11. @getaclue Check out I Corinthians 6:9–10 and Romans 1:26–27. Admittedly, not the Gospels, but the Epistles—and future Christian orthodoxy.

  12. @Hot Tramp — The Hebrew word for “abomination” is to‘evah, which means something like a perversion of the natural order of things, especially in a ritual context. It’s used here to describe homosexual relations, as well as at Deuteronomy 22:5 to describe cross-dressing. Other things described as “abominations” are especially related to idolatry and idol-worship. It’s an especially strong term that seems to be reserved, in the Hebrew Bible, for especially abhorrent acts.

  13. It’s troubling that every post of Sam’s, which are thoughtful and thought-provoking, draws out people who try to browbeat the religious writers/commenters into giving up religion altogether. This is about as well-received as the aggressive evangelizing style of that certain brand of American Christianity. It’s very disrespectful, at the very least. Argue with Sam based on her actual arguments; don’t steam-roll right over her intellect by dismissing her arguments altogether.

  14. Seriously, fellow atheists — if you don’t have anything to contribute to a discussion of religion and how people reconcile their faith with being anti-homophobic, or other such subjects, don’t post. If you keep disrupting this kind of thread, like amandaw says, to just say things like “religion is wrong” or to try and convert people to atheism, I’m going to ban you. Despite being an atheist, I don’t support others atheists barging in and interrupting with belittling comments like “free your mind, take that pacifier out of your mouth” any more than I would support a fundamentalist Christian showing up in a discussion about persecution of atheists and telling everyone involved that they’re going to hell if they don’t repent. On a level of basic social respect, you’re doing the same thing. And some of you have already been warned about this. I will ban you, with my Almighty Godless Stick of Banning, also known as my index finger on a mouse button.

  15. When I read these posts, it’s like I’m watching somebody trying to get through a locked gate when there is no fence to either side of the gate. They insist on trying to unlock the gate, when they could just walk around it.

  16. That’s illuminating, Sam. I wondered if it was more like “a really, really bad and sinful thing” or “a thing that is against the rightful order of the universe.” Though I might be constructing an artificial difference between the two. In a ritualistic religion, as temple Judaism certainly was, preserving the divinely-ordained order is the highest virtue.

  17. @Entomologista You’re missing a lot of the point. Judaism is much more than a religion: to many people, it has components that are ethnic, social, spiritual, historical, cultural…you name it. So saying that taking God out of the equation does not help that much, since religion isn’t the only thing we’re dealing with here. It’s very easy to say that if someone gave up the Jewish religion, they’d not have to deal with the problems raised by the Bible’s condemnation of homosexuality, but the psychological jump that this asks of people—to give up their culture, their ethnicity, their community—is where many people get stuck.

  18. @Sam – Corinthians and Romans are not testimonies of Jesus Christ. They are letters written by Paul/Saul, the Pauline Epistles, and there is even debate about that they were written by the same person. They are also not part of the Gospel.

    As to the gist of your article, I am with a few of the others here. Either you believe that the code of Leviticus is the true word of your God and applies in full measure today, as it were dictated to Moses for his people, to you.. and you accept that it is inhumane and cruel and anybody who eats shrimp is abhorrent unto god; or you accept that the culture of the time was different than it is now, and like any communication that follows the path of God to a man to another man is inherently flawed by man’s inability to fully encompass his word.

    Any in between stance is just getting along with your neighbors, really. (another choice there: do you obey the commandment to love your neighbors, or the one to put them to death?)

  19. So saying that taking God out of the equation does not help that much, since religion isn’t the only thing we’re dealing with here. It’s very easy to say that if someone gave up the Jewish religion, they’d not have to deal with the problems raised by the Bible’s condemnation of homosexuality, but the psychological jump that this asks of people—to give up their culture, their ethnicity, their community—is where many people get stuck.

    And I’d argue further, that giving it up is not, in any meaningful sense, even an option for a lot of people. You can’t just “give up” your culture, your upbringing, your ethnicity.

  20. @Jeffrey Boser — I know all this. What, then, is the point of getaclue’s assertion that there’s no mention of it in the Gospels? There’s mention of it in the Epistles, which are probably earlier than the Gospels—even the so-called “synoptic” Gospels—and at any rate, as I said, these notions worked their way into Christian orthodoxy anyway. So what’s the difference whether they were in the Gospels or the Epistles?

    And your point about either/or is extremely oversimplistic. It’s not an either/or thing for many people, who do have the conviction that you can pick and choose somehow, which parts are divinely inspired, and which aren’t, or which things they want to do and which they don’t. You see this beginning in the New Testament, especially in Romans, where the writer asserts that you don’t need to observe all the ritual laws of the Old Testament to receive God’s salvation. But Christianity never denied the divinity or truth of the Old Testament; it just argues that it was superseded in many places by the New Testament. But what about the parts of the Old Testament that are still enjoined to be observed, like “love thy neighbour” and such?

    Rightly or wrongly, many people pick and choose. It’s fallacious to say that there are only two choices: all or nothing.

  21. Sam, what a fabulous article. It is difficult to try to figure out the best way to wrestle with this subject, especially when you have such strong social feelings. To’evah has such interesting connotations and it is difficult to explain to people who don’t understand the text. I really appreciate your posts. They’re so enlightening! Thank you!

  22. Considering the number of faiths out there (Reform Judaism, Episcopalian, Unitarian, the list goes on) that are very successfully practicing religion and keeping religious tradition alive while also embracing gay people and discarding homophobia, I don’t see why anyone would ever HAVE to “give up” those things. There’s a whole spectrum of people reconciling tradition with modern progressive interpretation, and there are examples in the original post. All of this “you’re either inside the fence or outside of it, and I perceive the struggle to reinterpret faith and tradition as a waste of time” is totally missing the point.

    I don’t even believe in God’s existence, and I can easily see the point. I don’t know what’s wrong with some of you atheists, unless it’s just that you really don’t like religion. I am not religious, I don’t practice religion, I don’t ever have any intention to. I don’t have spiritual beliefs about mystical things. But it’s not like I have an inherent problem with religion or want to convince religious people to believe what I believe (isn’t that just proselytizing? that’s my least favorite part of some religions!!). I have a problem with asshole fundamentalists who yell at me that I’m going to hell, or try to force their faith on public policy, and I have a problem with all the systems that enable them to do this. But I don’t see the point of mocking religious people, making snide comments about “sky fairies” or acting like you’re superior. It gives atheists a bad name, it’s embarassing and juvenile, and it’s hardly rational, for those of you who ground your disbelief in rationality.

    I do there was a point in the creation of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and PZ Myers’ desecration of the Host, however. Those were in response to religion trying to meddle with laws and publicly-funded education.

  23. It seems perfectly reasonable that a small tribe, trying to stay united and strong, would have a good many rules that would give the tribe a unique identity, a brand. Some of the key rules would involve avoiding customs, religious style, some foods that the neighboring competing tribe uses. Not mixing meat and dairy is the result of rejecting specific temple practices of other tribes. It is quite likely that part of the prohibition of sexual act(s) between males and the prohibition of “cross-dressing” was the rejection of transgender priestesses of the competing tribe’s god and of men who have sex with other men on temple grounds. To’evah has extensive applications to maintenance of ritual purity. Other theories involve pressure for every fertile adult to reproduce as much as possible, and gain tribal strength through sheer numbers. That doesn’t impress me quite as much, since men could easily have a wife and children, as well as casual or sustained sexual relations with men.

    Of course, Judaic law (halacha) is still a means of setting the Jewish community apart. If ritual purity law were made today for the first time, I would imagine that some Islamic and Christian specific customs would be prohibited. No ecstatic dancing to promote altered consciousness (Sufis, Pentecostals), (the already existing) no mentioning God by name – only use titles/attributes, etc.

  24. Hmmm….I think, in discounting the reinterpretation of “as you lay with a woman” to somehow exempt homosexual sex is premature. The Talmud is just bursting with totally random interpretations of puzzling/contradictory lines of the Torah.
    Rabbinic Jews probably could have come up with a way to twist the words to say something they don’t mean, without the whole religion’s authority being called into question. After all, they come up with particularly creative ways to transform the “disobedient children are to be killed” message in the bible: not outright rejecting it, but just saying something along the lines of “well, that’s not really what it means.” They just come up with a ridiculous set of requirements to qualify a child as “disobedient.” Some examples of things where jews don’t actually follow scripture’s literal sense (because it either contradicts itself or is wildly unpopular) but still maintain that they’re following it: jubilee, ritual purity of women and men, stoning of badly behaved bratty children, etc. etc. etc.
    If Rabbis two thousand years ago had interpreted the “laying with man = abomination” line into a similarly toothless statement like “gay sex is fine as long as the man doesn’t have a vagina!”, I don’t think we’d be having the discussion; we’d just have some legacy (and more tolerant) understanding of homosexuality that most Jews would follow. I think the problem is that it’s difficult to reinterpret scripture to be more tolerant of homosexuality when society still lags behind in that arena; the reinterpretation lacks authority mainly because a lot of people in our society are still not down with people being gay, and new interpretation is always suspect until it gets burnished by age and gets a nice shiny hint of respectability.

    It just seems to me that position 3) is what JEws have been doing almost since the 3rd century BCE (i.e. about as soon as the present-day torah was completely written down). I don’t think reinterpreting to be tolerant/welcoming of homosexuality poses quite the dilemma for Judaism as you make it out to be. It’s problematic until it becomes minhag, then everyone just forgets its origins and follows it because it’s tradition.

  25. I am not Jewish, so I cannot speak to how different Jewish sects might see their scriptures, but I do see some similarities here with the struggles of (protestant) Christianity to deal with demands of equality from glbt people (women etc.). It seems like there are not many options for people who are oppressed by beliefs within their communities, especially since it is not always viable or desirable to leave.

    I was raised by extremely fundamentalist Christian parents and that upbringing has made me very wary our religion in general, although I am coming to understand that it can play a very important (and positive) role in some peoples’ lives.

    @Daisy Bond: I think that you have a good point about not being able to give up a belief system when your whole life and community is built around it, however, sometimes that is the only option available if you are within a fundamentalist sect. I had to completely separate myself from my immediate family because of how hurtful their sincerely held beliefs were to me.

    @Sam: I am really loving your posts here. Religion is a hard topic for me to read about and think clearly on, but I have learned a lot from your posts so far. 🙂 Keep it up!

  26. I have a problem with asshole fundamentalists who yell at me that I’m going to hell, or try to force their faith on public policy, and I have a problem with all the systems that enable them to do this. But I don’t see the point of mocking religious people, making snide comments about “sky fairies” or acting like you’re superior. It gives atheists a bad name, it’s embarassing and juvenile, and it’s hardly rational, for those of you who ground your disbelief in rationality.

    Holly,

    You have effectively articulated what I’ve been feeling when I’ve dealt with militant atheists in and out of class in undergrad or dealing with some on progressive sites who don’t seem to realize that their disdainful condescending attitudes towards religious/theistic believers aren’t too far removed from the narrow-minded attitudes of religious fundamentalists….along with some shades of the ye olde White European Colonialist mindset when this disdain is turned towards those who practice non-Western religions such as Taoism, Jainism, Buddhism, etc.

    It is even more amusing when some of these militant atheists attempt to promote themselves as the epitome of superior intellectual enlightenment and cultivation when history has shown that several of their fellow atheists are just as capable of being intellectually challenged and capable of being bloody and violent towards their fellow human beings…..just look at the death tolls the various Communist regimes left from the 20th century onwards…

    As such, it is not a grand revelation that there are homophobic, racist, or tyrannical, etc atheists. Contrary to what many militant atheists would like to believe, oppression and prejudice are a product of the worst aspects of the human condition…….not solely/mostly a product of religious/theistic belief.

  27. Do I have this right? A blogger who is neither a gay man nor Jewish, writes a post theoretically about how gay Jews deal with having a sexual orientation that’s condemned by two of the 613 mitzvot… without quoting a single gay Jew about how they actually deal with it?

    Slightly absurd, no? Frankly, this kind of post quite deserves to have people react with “there is no god, what’s the problem?” True, that’s a shallow response, but this is a shallow post. It’s not as if it’s difficult to find the views of lesbian and gay Jews on their religion/culture/sexual orientation. Oranges on the passover plate come to mind…

  28. It seems there are a lot of people giving atheism a bad name just as there are many people giving every belief system out there bad names…feminism included.

    It’s a daily war for myself, trying to be Christian while I find I can’t stand most Christians. I have to keep reminding myself “forgiveness…love…patience…”

    I wish I knew more about Judaism. I have nothing to contribute at this point.

  29. IIRC, the Hebrew verb used for “lie” in “You shall not lie with a man in the manner of laying with a woman; this is an abomination” already implies sex, so “in the manner of laying with a woman” adds implication. I don’t really know what, though.

  30. @Jesurgislac Wow, did you bother to read my introductory post? I’m a queer academic Jew. Please try to do a little bit of homework beforehand next time.

    I think that you may have misunderstood the thrust of my post. It was not supposed to be about what specific Jews do or do not do w.r.t. homosexuality in a ritual context, as with the orange on the seder plate, but with the theoretical framework for understanding Jewish approaches to the problem posed by homosexuality in the modern world. In this vein, I was not so concerned with specifics of ritual or individual custom, but with what’s in the Bible and several ways of approaching it from a Jewish perspective.

  31. @Jesurgislac – this is probably my ignorance showing, but what’s the significance of “oranges on the passover plate”?

  32. Going along with what NancyP said about tribes, another idea that may have led to the creation of that law has to do with childbirth. Because two men cannot create a child, that act is unnatural/immoral/etc. It’s my understanding (and I could be wrong) that the tribe was relatively small, and one of the quickest ways of gaining power was to become very large. Therefore — “Be fruitful and multiply,” a common thread that still exists among many Catholics today.

    One way of reconciling that former law would be to simply come to the conclusion that since we have a large enough population and no longer live in groups where the largest is the strongest, we no longer need to multiply.

    I suppose it really depends on your interpretation of the culture and what the writers meant when they created that law.

  33. Thanks Sam for raising this conversation. I can’t help but add a fourth position though: give queers the power and tools to read text by and for ourselves, and see how actually there are so many ways one can read those lines, and that it is truly a choice to read them in the way they’re often presented.

    I finally got the opportunity to do this work when I sat down with Rabbis and Rabbinical students who were teaching classes and workshops with SVARA and it was really amazing to give myself the space to pry open these words that I imagined were sealed shut, and to find that there are so many different root verbs and ways to translate that line.

    While I undoubtedly know there’s an overarching, dominant narrative that whether I like it or not is something I have to contend with in speaking with Jews who are halachically observant, I’ve also found incredible strength in being given the opportunity, and the tools, to read texts that are often used against us and to find once again how much those with the power to teach have withheld truly powerful lessons from us as students.

    Thanks again for opening this conversation here.

  34. I have some personal experience with family that has been seriously fucked up by religious bigotry. So no, I’m not a fan of religion. I’m not one of the good atheists who wishes I could believe or who respects wrong ideas. And yes, I’m perfectly aware of the obstacles to giving up your belief system, although it’s probably worse for Jews. If you think atheists are free of religion simply because we lack belief, you would be wrong. We live in the same world you live in, a world in which we are held hostage by the false beliefs of the majority. It’s abominable that anybody gets cast out of their community or their family because of how they choose to live their life. People are more important than beliefs. That’s something too few believers understand, in my experience.

  35. Also: I know I’m a bit OT, and I apologize for that. Obviously, feel free to do as you will with my comments.

  36. its very simple not all prohibitions of themselves in lev were sins. did jesus say keep all prohibitions of the god of moses? no…………..jesus said “you will recognize them, what is of me and the father, by their fruit”

    did romans 1 say keep all the prohibitions of the law of moses.
    no, it said that from the beginning of time god made his essence known, what was of god and not of god, thru what he created.

    according to sam’s arguement then jews should still buying slaves, and passing them onto their children.

    the christian world stopped the practice of ethnic slavery because they realized it came against loving ones neighbor as oneself. one of the three love commandments, taught by christ, which paul wrote was also “the summation of all the law.” today the understanding for “neighbor” in the christian world, is everybody else.

    im sure that the jews hold just as strongly to this commandment as christians,. the bible (new testament)says about this commandment aside from the one about loving god with all your heart…………is, that there is none greater.

    for christians, that being the case, then sin under the new covenant of christ is anything that comes against loving ones neighbor as oneself. so the question is how does homosexuality come against loving ones neighbor as oneself.

    to date all those who believe homosexuality is a sin have never been able to explain how it does.

    for the jews i would think that the question is this. how is condemning homosexuality a sin, or prohibiting it, an the act of loving ones neighbor as oneself?

    my reality is that homosexuals have never been found wanting in any sector of society compared to heterosexuals. they are not less a brother, attorney, administrator, policeman, friend, father, neighbor, etc.

    also homosexuals bond in the same spirit as heterosexuals. that is, they bond out of mutual love, respect, trust, devotion, affection, and attraction for a committed shared life together.

    things equal in the same thing are equal to each other in that thing. if homosexual bonding is of the same spirit as heterosexual bonding, how can it be loving our homosexual neighbors, by prohibitng the bonding of their orientation while allowing the other. in spirit they are equal to each other.

    regarding romans1, 1cor,1tim
    if you examine romans 1, it says that the same sex relations were motivated by shame based lust(niv). not only do we know that this has no resemblance to homosexuality, but also where there is lust, the only commitment in these kind of relations is to satiating the lust, not to any human being. what humans that are present, are present to merely satiate the lust.

    again……jesus said “we would recognize them by their fruit”(fruit of the spirit)

    the greek word in 1cor and 1tim that has been transposed by the word “homosexual” is a compound word that means translated to english, “male bed”. prior to the transposition in the original kj this term was translated in english as “defiling oneself with mankind”. defiling oneself is an act that spawns self hatred and self loathing. again, none of these resembles homosexuality.

    its interesting to note that translations began to take place in the eighteenth and nineteenth century england. in england there is no seperation between church and state. the head of the church of england is the king or queen of england. in 1500″s england king henry passed a law that made sodomy punishable by hanging. it stayed on the books until the late 1800’s.

    to my knowledge there is no written explanation as to why this transposition to “homosexual” ever took place.

  37. One must always remember that they are reading their own interpretation of the bible. To assume that the first most literal interpretation of everything is correct is arrogance rather than consistency.

    My opinion is if you can’t square away a sentence or two in the bible you should simply ignore it to avoid interpreting it in the wrong way. Accept that you wont have a 100% correct interpretation of the bible and just ignore the things that don’t fit.

    Nowhere in the bible does it say that your specific interpretation of that translation is correct so you should not assume it is.

  38. This essay is much more thoughtful and well put than the one about the virgin birth, which was ill-informed. I plan to reply to it on my blog. (I need to think about it.) But the questions are very well formed and deserve attention as they have repercussions for all the Semitic religions.

  39. It’s troubling that every post of Sam’s, which are thoughtful and thought-provoking, draws out people who try to browbeat the religious writers/commenters into giving up religion altogether.

    I don’t see that Sam’s argument leaves anybody much choice. She all but abandons any hope of reconciling homosexuality with Biblical Judaism in the sixth paragraph. If there’s no way to reconcile Judaism with homosexuality, might not homosexuals best be served by simply abandoning the practice of Judaism?

    Why should that be forbidden to discuss? Fundamentalist Judaism would certainly like them to abandon their homosexuality. Why is the reverse barred from discussion?

  40. I’m honestly a bit confused. Did you leave out any references to talmudic midrashic traditions of dealing with the simple text of laws to make your post simpler? Why did you leave out the modern legal teshuvot on homosexuality from the conservative movement? I just don’t find your post intellectually honest.

    The problem is real, but your presentation of it doesn’t feel Jewish to me. Everything you wrote could apply just as easily from a Christian tradition of reading the Torah.

  41. It’s very easy to say that if someone gave up the Jewish religion, they’d not have to deal with the problems raised by the Bible’s condemnation of homosexuality, but the psychological jump that this asks of people—to give up their culture, their ethnicity, their community—is where many people get stuck.

    Who says you have to do any of that, though? Plenty of atheists still go to church, because they realized that it was the community they treasured all along. They realized that they could still be a part of that community without having to believe things on the basis of no good evidence, or condemn people who were just living their lives on the basis of some shepherd’s ancient book.

    I’m aware that Judaism is an ethnicity as well as a religion; but it’s possible to be a Jewish atheist. Isn’t that why they have “non-practicing Jews”?

  42. I have to second what Cole said. There are more ways through than: 1) disregard Torah; 2) disregard homos; 3) try to average them.

    Judaism is a legalistic religion, which means that people have been arguing and arguing over the language for thousands of years. Some of that argument has become codified into law; other parts of it haven’t, or still are too new.

    I think the set of tshuvot around homosexuality that the Conservative rabbinic assembly approved (search for “interpersonal relations”) is a really interesting set of arguments around how Torah-observant Jews can make this work, or can’t make this work, and the billion shades of grey therein. In 06 the RA passed three papers on homosexuality in Conservative Judaism — two of which said you could not ordain gay and lesbian rabbis and one that said you did. If I understand right, they all hold equally.

    The answer that I find in Judaism, again and again, is essentially “prove it” — make your legal case. This is part of what I think is so beautiful about it.

    I’m not going to address the idea of “if Judaism doesn’t like you, just walk out on Judaism” — anyone making that argument pretty clearly doesn’t know what they are taking about. There are a lot of people who have to fight for acceptance in the culture and religion they are a part of, and those fights are what move things forward.

  43. Sam: Wow, did you bother to read my introductory post?

    Nope. This is a busy blog.

    I’m a queer academic Jew.

    Thanks: five words which bring your post into perspective.

    Please try to do a little bit of homework beforehand next time.

    Please try to be more helpful to your readers next time, rather than expecting them to have read your introductory post. If we’re required to read your introductory post before any of your other posts, kindly provide a link, rather than berating me for not having done so.

  44. Chet; Sam all but abandons any hope of reconciling homosexuality with Biblical Judaism in the sixth paragraph. If there’s no way to reconcile Judaism with homosexuality, might not homosexuals best be served by simply abandoning the practice of Judaism?

    It would be interesting to know how Sam reconciles being gay with being Jewish.

  45. Fundamentalist Judaism would certainly like them to abandon their homosexuality. Why is the reverse barred from discussion?

    Maybe because, you know,there aren’t any fundamentalist Jews arguing that LGBTQ persons “give up” their homosexuality here.

    But I suppose there are assholes of all stripes.

    Engage Sam on what she wrote. Don’t hold her, or other religious people, to account for what some extremist who only nominally shares their religion shouts on a street corner.

  46. @Jesurgislac You wonder how I reconcile being gay (or queer, at any rate) with being Jewish. Easy: I’m one of those people for whom Judaism is much more than a religion. It’s a culture, an ethnicity, and a way of connecting with the past. I don’t accept the Torah as the word of God, and I don’t see doing so as a precondition for being Jewish. Being an atheist, I don’t even accept it as divinely inspired. But there’s much more to Judaism—to being Jewish—than believing in God or accepting the literal truth of the Torah. That being said, there’s a lot about Jewish practice that I happen to like, for whatever reason—lighting the Shabbat candles, singing the familiar melodies in synagogue, remembering my deceased relatives by saying Kaddish and Yizkor for them—but I see no contradiction here. One may practice Judaism—even enjoy Judaism—without having to reconcile it with the Bible’s backward stance on homosexuality. And that is how I can comfortably call myself both queer and Jewish.

  47. Jesu — seriously? Are we supposed to introduce ourselves for every post we write? It isn’t much of a task to look up her introduction, or to, you know, not automatically assume she is a cis het WASP because she didn’t explicitly state otherwise.

    I respect and enjoy your comments here and on other blogs but you are being a little ridiculous here.

  48. Nope. This is a busy blog.

    Such a busy blog in fact that it’s ridiculous to expect the writers to handhold through each and every post.

    If you aren’t sure of something, you should ask rather than make assumptions. And if you make an assumption and turn out to be wrong, the appropriate response is to apologize rather than make excuses.

  49. Ok, here’s the thing I really don’t understand. Choice #1 in the original post is “disregard the Bible in favor of modernity”, which seems to encompass varying levels of non-belief. Yet talking about non-belief means you get called an asshole by the moderators. What gives?

  50. when i was studying hebrew my teacher said that all rabbis are independent. one can say one thing, one another. pick the one you chose to agree with.

    am i to understand that in judaism” loving ones neighbor as oneself” is just a rule among many rules?

    example:

    leviticus 19:
    17 ” ‘Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt.

    18 ” ‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

    19 ” ‘Keep my decrees.
    ” ‘Do not mate different kinds of animals.
    ” ‘Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.
    ” ‘Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

    in the christian new testament

    matthew22:’Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

    the arguement was made that homosexuality was not not compatible with judaism because of the law…………………….what law?

    in judaism does one pick and chose law, or this book over that book, this rabbi over that rabbi.

    judaism is about culture not about god. judaism is about arguement.

    to do this would be to negate abraham and the prophets their lives, their faith which is the essence for judaism to exist at all

    i am a christian, but because i am, i am jew also.

    but the judaism that is discussed here is appears completely secular. in a sense its a complete fabrication because it credits human argument, as being of ,by and thru humans totally disconnected from any spirit from without, faith in such a spirit, that was the source and reason for its original existence.

  51. You know perfectly well that’s not what I’m complaining about, and if you don’t it would behoove you to step back, listen, and learn a bit, out of a very basic human respect for a writer who has done absolutely nothing to provoke the rude response.

  52. Are we supposed to introduce ourselves for every post we write?

    No, but the blog already has a functionality for linking websites in names; why not have front-page Feministe contributors link to their introduction post, instead of to other websites?

    That seems a little more reasonable that berating individuals for not having memorized the precise details of every contributor’s biography. It’s not hand-holding, as you ridiculously portray it.

  53. What, John R.? In Judaism, a major portion of religious participation consists of study, argument, and incorporation of the results into one’s religious views and acts. Belief is -a- starting point, but one is expected to grow in understanding as well as attempt to keep the Law as understood by yourself and the community, and do mitzvah.

    re: arsenokoites, the word thought to be derived from roots meaning “man” and “bed”. No one really knows what the word means, since the word doesn’t appear in non-scriptural contemporary sources and occurs only twice in scripture.

    “Homosexual” came into Biblical English translation use after the word came into widespread secular use in the 1930s and 1940s. In the English-language Protestant translation tradition, it first showed up in the original 1950 (ish) Revised Standard Version. Other translators picked it up quickly.

  54. Nope. This is a busy blog.

    To be honest, neither did I, but I also didn’t just go ahead and assume Sam was neither gay nor Jewish despite any evidence to the contrary (all Sam’s posts so far being on either queer or Jewish issues). Why didn’t you askwhether she was gay and/or Jewish instead of just assuming she wasn’t for no real reason?

    Yet talking about non-belief means you get called an asshole by the moderators.

    It’s more the tone than anything, I think: “There is no God, problem solved” is flippant, as if it’s just that simple for everyone. It’s not. I can’t just choose not to believe in God anymore than you could choose to believe in God. And comments that imply we’re stupid for believing or wasting everyone’s valuable time by trying to work through these issues are even worse.

  55. ill try this again, homosexuality is not compatible with the beliefs of judaism based on the law? ……………………..what law?

  56. John R.
    There is a large body of Jewish law and Jewish legal texts. It really dwarfs, for example, the Catholic legal tradition. The size of it and the length of its history means that there are multiple legal answers to many questions; although there are also questions that have, for all practical purposes, been settled – and it’s details of them that need solving. All observant Jews separate milk and meat and don’t eat them together. But how many hours do you wait in between? Do you treat pyrex like glass for the purpose of using it for both milk and meat? Can you make a plastic dish kosher once it’s been used for non kosher food? etc.

    Different rabbis, depending on their backgrounds (both religiously and geographically/ethnically), orientations, etc, hold differently on these questions.

    Homosexuality is an example of a case where the law seemed to be settled for a long while (and despite Sam’s post, is actually different for lesbians and gays), but now is coming to be questioned again, and, again, different rabbis are giving different answers, based on the same body of law. This doesn’t mean there are different bodies of law or that there’s no body of law any more than one federal district court can disagree with another on an interpretation of law.

  57. @Tara — You explained this quite well; thank you. As you say, the law is different for gay men and lesbians; I did not really want to get into specifics of halachah when trying to work on something of a theoretical framework for discussing these issues.

    I see now that people had the expectation that I would talk about specifics of how certain Jews deal with these issues. That’s not what this was supposed to be about. There are plenty of places to go for that; some searching on the Internet will turn these up.

  58. if that’s to complicated then forget the law. what was the widely accepted reasoning that made it at odds with judaism?

    i have to tell this jewish belief system doesnt sound too far from the christian right where cultural influences effect belief and reasoning is anything that supports the belief.

  59. @John R — I’m not sure what your question is. I should think it’d be relatively clear that there are two verses in the Book of Leviticus that forbid homosexuality. The fact that these verses are in the Torah and therefore part of Jewish law makes homosexuality at odds with traditional Judaism.

    I don’t know what your second paragraph means.

  60. so finally………………..the law according to lev. so how do you pick and chose which ones of lev you keep and which you discard. why has the law about same sex relations been kept. you do understand that not all the prohibitions were of themselves sins ………such as mixed clothing, sex witha woman having her period, rules about the sabbath such as in numbers 15:32

    32 While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.

  61. @John R — I’m afraid I still don’t understand your question. The law about homosexuality has been rejected by many Jews on the grounds that it is antiquated and inhumane. Many Jews also do not keep the laws about mixed clothing, sex with a woman during her period, or forbidden labour on the Sabbath. Many (primarily but not exclusively Orthodox) Jews do attempt to keep these laws, however, because they still find value in the laws prescribed by the Torah for whatever reason.

    Are you asking on what grounds any individual Jew would keep or discard any particular law? I can’t answer that; I’m not every individual Jew. It ultimately comes down to a matter of personal choice, as do many other things in this crazy world.

  62. then that just leaves you. so are you saying you hold to the prohibitions about homosexuality in lev. and because of this, you personally find homosexuality to be a violation of judaism.

    and of course this could have nothing to do as to your own orientation.
    some rely on the secular world to determine what to follow? would that be a description of the modern side of judaism.

    for me it was that i studied the scriptures first. after having studied them, came to the conclusion that scripture never said homosexuality was a sin.

    the prohibitions of lev were to create a seperate people. a number of its prohibitions are not of themselves sins.

    then i found a church to worship that 100% gay that openly supported homosexuality. i found their worship to be as sincere as any heterosexual church. there was no spirit of denial, delusion, or deceit from the pulpit. i found their hearts as sincere as any heterosexual. in short i saw no sin. it confirmed my reasoning of the scriptures.

    but here i also relied on witness of the spirit to be my test and confirm what i had reasoned thru the scriptures

    john 4:24 god is spirit.

    there is also a scripture in romans1:20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

    what i saw was that homosexuals were in esseence no different becauseof their orientation. i also read boswell , he gives totally difference awareness of homosexuality in history.

    for me it is simple. i stand on the directive of love……loving ones neighbor as oneself. the new testament appears to give this much more prominence than your torah or the covenant of moses

    33To love him(god) with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

    actually i came to this conclusion in my early years from amother perpective when i sexuallly experimented with other men. the first time i went to bed with a man in the seventies a thought went off in my head “now im going to experience pure evil.” on the contrary it was no different than doing it with women.

    its interesting in that the human mind can learn something in one perspective, but this perpective may or may not connect with other levels of awareness.

  63. I’m glad you have had such fulfilling experiences in your life. Fulfilling experiences make the world a much richer place.

    I’m also glad that you have such a complete understanding of the Bible so as to be able to deny that the Bible says that homosexuality is not a sin when it clearly says that “You shall not lie with a man in the manner of laying with a woman; this is an abomination” at Lev. 18:22 and “As for a man who lies with a man in the manner of laying with a woman, they have both committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon themselves” at Lev. 20:13.

    Truly, your knowledge surpasses every person throughout Jewish (and Christian) history who has ever interpreted these verses to prohibit homosexuality. And believe me, there have been a lot of them. Just check out these homophobic jerks if you won’t take my word for it.

  64. Interesting stuff.

    This, however, is absolutely untrue:

    female homosexuality is tolerated just the same as male homosexuality in virtually all religiously observant communities today: not at all.

    That is simply not the experience of myself and my partner (Orthodox lesbians who are “out” in our Orthodox community/shul) and the other Orthodox lesbians we know.

    BTW, in case anyone who is reading this is a religious Jewish lesbian or bi woman, there’s a new blog for and by Orthodox / frum Jewish queer women at Tirtzah: A Community of Frum Queer Women.

    I think if you read it you’ll see examples of how lesbians are often treated a lot more compassionately than gay men in religious Jewish communities. Is this right? No. But it is the case, and painting all “religiously observant communities” with the same brush just isn’t fair or accurate and shows your own bias.

  65. what part of not all prohibitions of lev are of themselves sins?

    why are you so incapable of explaining your own reasoning. is it limited to”the bible says”

    1thess 5:20 test everything , keep the good.

    do you have a test?

  66. Sam, it’s not true that the Bible “clearly” says that. What you’re quoting is a translation; translation is not a science, and there’s no objective reason to prefer the translation you use over other plausible translations. It’s clear that most people prefer to translate it as you do, but that doesn’t make your interpretation more accurate than other interpretations; it just makes it more popular.

    This page — despite its poor formatting — is worth reading. It contains alternative views, from several rabbis, on how the passage you cite could be translated.

  67. rose: Why didn’t you askwhether she was gay and/or Jewish instead of just assuming she wasn’t for no real reason?

    Why should I have assumed Sam was either gay or lesbian (I didn’t even know Sam’s gender) or Jewish? Nothing in the post said she was: in fact, the post was written in an impersonal style without at any point indicating any personal preference for any of this – so textually, on a re-read, I took it that Sam was straight and Gentile, and writing about the issue purely out of academic interest.

    I’d still like to know what Sam actually thinks, rather than reading an informal review of what other people think…

  68. @Ampersand — The issue isn’t the accuracy of any particular translation; the issue is how many Jews understand the text, thereby creating (or reinforcing) the homophobic atmosphere under discussion. What I’ve been trying to deal with is John R’s problem in this thread, which is a failure to understand that the Bible contains some text which it is popular to interpret as prohibiting homosexuality. Furthermore, since there are strains of (predominantly Orthodox) Jewish thought that view the word of the Bible as divine binding law, they interpret these verses as an explicit prohibition of homosexuality.

    That page you cite does have severe formatting and “tl;dr” problems. Its accuracy also leaves something to be desired. To take a trivial example, Leviticus was not written in 1350 BCE, for example—that was when the Ugaritic tablets were being written; the Hebrew people probably didn’t even exist yet as a distinct cultural unit. Leviticus actually derives from the priestly source P—nearly a thousand years later. But as I said, the problem is not the “correct” interpretation of the text, it’s the atmosphere created by popular interpretations of the text.

  69. problem sam is that lev contains the only scripture that specifically prohibits same sex relations

    (now im addressing you thru (sin the new testament) jewish perspective, involving christian understandings the context would be different……which im quite willing to go if that’s your interest. actually it disconcerting that there is no one knowledgable about judaism that is making any comments about their own understanding or their own reasoning.)

    not all the prohibitions in lev of themselves are sins. and things that are directed to be engaged in, are now considered intolerable evils.

    so the question is what is the reasoning that determines which are to still be followed. my understanding is that modern judaism follows almost none of them, while the orthodox follow as many as can be done without being illegal.

    my understanding is that for the majority of jews, there was a major change in the compliance of lev when the jews were exiled from palestine by the romans in 70 ad.

  70. It’s quite the shame that you didn’t have the fortitude to take on the issue of lesbianism within the context of Jewish faith. You very neatly excised the need for *any* feminist analysis in doing so.

    Clever.

    The Jewish patriarchs would be quite proud of you.

  71. Certainly if God didn’t want men to have sex with other men, He would have said “Man shall not lie with man PERIOD (Leviticus 18:22, 21:13). Gay men are attracted to other men by definition and by God. They can only imagine what sex “ . . . as with a woman” would be like.

    God wanted Moses to eradicate rampant idolatry in the Jewish nation. That whole “ . . . as with a woman” thing condemns a straight man pretending to make it with a woman, such as during idol worship. If you’ll excuse the Christian viewpoint, Paul explains it further when putting down the straight Romans (1:26-28 ) for “leaving their natural relations” (i.e…. as with a woman) and having idolatrous sex with men.

    “Homosexual” was coined about 1865, so any Bible translation since then that uses a form of that word is a lie that needs to be emended. ( The King James version is honest.) It premiered in a 1946 English Bible and continues to condemn loving Gays.

  72. regarding romans1, 1cor,1tim
    if you examine romans 1, it says that the same sex relations were motivated by shame based lust(niv). not only do we know that this has no resemblance to homosexuality, but also where there is lust, the only commitment in these kind of relations is to satiating the lust, not to any human being. what humans that are present, are present to merely satiate the lust.

    “I swear baby, I’m better now! I’ll never hit you again! I’ve changed!” – old testament god

    If you reject the notion that the bible is the word of god, doesn’t that make it necessary to stop taking it so seriously? And don’t you have to reject it’s inspiredness, if you’re willing to say the whole hating homosexuals thing is hooey?

    Also, isn’t lust present in any sex? Transferring the guilt isn’t the problem. It’s no good to say “I was out of my head with lust” or some variation. You tried something, and you liked it. Stop hating yourself. I say that, but as a former christian I know exactly how thorough the brainwashing can be, and how difficult it can be to remove.

  73. there aresome bits being mis-communicated here.

    the specific prohabition in Lev against what i will loosely call “male homosexual sex” is refered and described EXACTLY the same way as only a few other proscribed things – and these few things are all of the utmost sin level. because of the words used to describe the act, which equates to something analgous to high treason, if i understand the translations correctly. it is not refered to as a “sin” specifically, although in agrette everything listed is a sin. but these are two different things that are being conflated – the general list of sins, which include many small things that are no longer observed, and then the SPECIFIC TYPE of “crime” that includes this specific type of sex act.

    does that help?

  74. I’m Christian and straight, but I believe that sin is based on hurting others and violating their God-given rights. So I don’t buy that my God believes homosexuality is a sin.
    However, as a Christian, I can also haughtily proclaim that if “Jesus didn’t say it; I ain’t buyin’ it”.

    That all aside, I just wanted to thank you for this post. It was quite interesting, and reminded me of some problems with my boyfriend’s family.
    While his immediate family is rather progressive (his dad is reformed Jewish, his sister is too, and his step-mother is buddhist), his extended family is conservative. Later in life, his father’s sister came out as a lesbian, and it was a struggle for the family to deal with it. His immediately family was rather accepting, but the extended had problems.
    I was told it was only 2 years ago that his aunt’s partner was allowed into family photos by his grandmother, because she wasn’t “really part of the family”

    …so yeah. I thnk it’s a constant struggle, and even as a Christian I find myself defending my views to others who claim the same faith. Sometimes though, religious texts aside, I feel if we would just use a little common sense, we’d realize what is truly considered a “sin”…and what is just being ostricized because it’s simply out of the norm.

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