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Lessons from the Magic Carpet

Is sex work a feminist act? Not in itself, no, IMO. Any job is feminist in the limited sense that women working and supporting ourselves is feminist. But unless a type of work actively promotes women’s equality, I don’t think it’s affirmatively feminist. It’s not antifeminist either, though, unless it involves coercion of unwilling participants or marketing a typically very temporary career to those who otherwise might choose options offering longer-term security.

But hey – there are still plenty of feminist lessons to be learned.

The club I worked at in Vegas in ’99-2000 is called the Magic Carpet. Or, that’s what I call it in the various “stripper stories” I have at my blog. If you’re a Vegas aficionado, you can probably figure out which one I mean. Hint – we had male strippers on the second floor.

So without further ado, here are the Lessons:

Lesson #1:the Madison Ave/Vogue body ideal is not even the patriarchal culture ideal.

While pretty much every stripper had shaved legs, shaved armpits, makeup and stripper heels, and most appeared fit, there was substantially more variance in weight, height, race, and breast size than in mainstream magazines. While a strip club is not a mecca for body acceptance, women who are 30 pounds heavier than models of the same height do just fine. I’d have to put confidence and appearance equally tied as top indicators of success as a stripper, even in the most hoity toity of clubs.

Lesson #2: Many men with privilege or a high-level position enjoy being told what to do, and being in a thong while you’re doing it is only a small part of why.

It’s relaxing not to have to think, especially if one is usually expected to lead. Being confidently directed while being kept engaged is the best way to develop a “regular,” whether it’s a strip club customer or a job contact. I have dealt with partners at law firms whom I let boss me around, and partners whom I call on their shit and suggest that they will do what I ask them to do if they want to succeed. Even if they think I’m kind of a bitch, it’s usually the latter whom I wind up placing and who refer me to others. The former usually waste my time, want me to work for free, and forget my name.

Lesson #3: Women have an advantage in sales.

And not just in selling dances. Men are used to being sold to or negotiated with by other men. Whether it’s at the auto mechanic or in the boardroom. Even feminist men often expect men to be tougher. So when they succumb to you, they’re more likely to see it as a win win. They did you a favor, or got a little more flattery than they’d get from another guy, or feel good that they made it easy for you. They often won’t understand that they were sold. (Well, maybe when they get the nasty message from the credit card company in the VIP room when they go to pay for the eighteen dances. But by then it’s too late).

That’s why law firm clients love negotiating fee agreements with me. They’re pretty sure they are getting a screaming deal. Right up until they get the invoice anyway. But by then it’s too late.

Lesson #4: Women have an advantage in marketing.

It’s generalizing (what isn’t?) but by and large, women listen better. Hell, we have to, we sometimes can’t get a sentence out while on the job (or sometimes at home) without getting interrupted, at least initially. So we get good at it. And so we pick up stuff. In a strip club, this is magnified. Often, in a bikini club (topless but not bottomless, like the Magic Carpet), there’s alcohol involved. And the customer knows he’s unlikely to see you again (outside the club) and thinks you’re unshockable anyway. Asking questions, showing no surprise (“You, me, and Brad Pitt, with my golden retriever watching? HOT!” or “Used thongs? Well there’s been a lot of demand this week and I’m almost all out. Right, two left. $50 each? I couldn’t … $100? OK, but only for you”).

This is definitely applicable to non-naked work. The Magic Carpet message is: CEOs and other kinds of bosses, even (especially) are vulnerable. Just listen and find out where. Write it down. Then use it in your marketing. Don’t be intimidated by rank. Many times that’s right place, right time. Imagine the guy in his lap dance chair, waiting for you to figure out what he wants. He’s usually willing to tell you.

Lesson #5: People (especially men) think you’re brilliant if you admire something about them that nobody else notices.

Take your 40-50-ish typical white male exec. He’s used to being admired for his business success or cleverness. In the strip club, that doesn’t matter except to the extent it dictates how much he can afford to pay you. Best bet is to figure out something obscure. Maybe he reads ancient Greek literature. Maybe there’s a progressive cause he gets involved in. Maybe he runs 10Ks or hikes. Or secretly writes feminist sci fi. There’s usually something there for you to pick up on. And once you do, you’re pretty much in charge.

Whether you’re in retail, law, business, academia, hospitality, admin, whatever – there’s usually a middle aged white male in charge. Even without booze or thongs, over time he will typically confide to the person who is listening, at which point cognitive dissonance sets in and that person takes on additional power.

Lesson #6: Women are just as capable of focused professional ambition as men – if not more so.

Pat Buchanan said:

“Rail as they will about ‘discrimination,’ women are simply not endowed by nature with the same measures of single-minded ambition and the will to succeed in the fiercely competitive world of Western capitalism.”

Spend about ten minutes in a strip club and you’ll realize that is false. At the Magic Carpet on any given weekend night, there are about twenty women on the floor who could give lessons to Sun Tzu and Machiavelli.

You could probably find a couple of women like this on the trading floor or in a courtroom or at a union demonstration. But the strip club is unique in the concentration of such women. Why? I’m open to suggestion on this one. My thoughts are that possibly, the Madonna-Whore complex that pervades gender relations more easily allows women this kind of aggressiveness in sexual matters. Or that the strip club is typically a purer venue of capitalism than other job sites.

But bottom line, there’s no reason why this level of focus and ambition (without being an asshole) cannot extend to other job environments. From what I saw of and learned from my Magic Carpet colleagues, I have no doubt that if this were the case, we would be deadly at all levels of employment.


43 thoughts on Lessons from the Magic Carpet

  1. i used to be a house mom at a strip club. it was my second job – my first was phone sex. and telling clients i worked in a strip club = extra money. it was interesting, sitting it the back, helping dancers get ready and listening to the talk about the guys who came in, who would spend what. a couple of the dancers were insistent that *I* could strip, and i’m 50lbs overweight. not that i COULD, i have trouble walking because i have fibromalgia and have hip issus (that i hope are gone! i have a great surgeon…). but, according to some of the dancers, i could get rich in a club. if i didn’t kill the first guy who groped me, that is…

  2. “Any job is feminist in the limited sense that women working and supporting ourselves is feminist. But unless a type of work actively promotes women’s equality, I don’t think it’s affirmatively feminist. It’s not antifeminist either…”

    Indeed.

  3. I appreciate the insights into a world I am lucky enough not to know, but I absolutely despise the implications that the road to (relative) power and money for a woman is paved with apparent subservience and deviousness. You’re bossing guys around in a strip club? You are still their employee, worse, their plaything.

    I have succeeded professionally in massively male-dominated fields. I have never pretended to be nice, pretended to listen, been devious to get favors. I am direct, honest, creative, I don’t hide my strengths, I collaborate well. This also allows me to have healthy, egalitarian relationships outside the workplace. I can’t imagine what these kinds of faking powerplays must do to one’s mental health (again, I understand I was born lucky and have been lucky since then).

    IMO feminism should mean women succeeding on the basis of their own talents, not through getting some small percentage of the patriarchy’s crumbs by playing nice, like dogs at the master’s table. Stripping and prostitution and all this shit may be necessary for some women to get to the next stage or stay alive, far be it from me to have anything but sympathy for them. But I wish and will work for a better world, and this post doesn’t have any advice to help get to that post-patriarchy world.

  4. “Lesson #3: Women have an advantage in sales.”

    in my experience this isn’t accurate. I work in a retail framing store, where there is custom framing and already made frames. We are supposed to push custom. No this being art/design related you might think customers might what a “woman’s touch” but the problem is customers of both sexes automatically think men are “more experienced.” I can’t count the times I’ve been working with a customer and I’ll have shown them numerous options (in a very confident and knowledgable) way and a male coworker (who knows less and is less confident) will walk by and they’ll ask “What do you think.” He’ll pull out something I’ve already shown them, “Oh! That’s perfect! We’ll take that”

    I’d like to say that this is not the norm but in retail sales, you cannot be equal to men and succeed you have to be better and work harder to get the kind of recognition they do. My mom worked in automotive repair, I have female friends that work in a large electronics retail chain, people like to see you around as eye candy and to make the place “Friendly” but when it comes down to business, if you don’t have the right (percieved) appendage you don’t know as much as the other guy.

  5. I have been to strip clubs a few times in the past, but I never really enjoyed it. I was simply unable to generate enough willing suspension of disbelief to get off on the pretend attention.

  6. Lesson #5: People (especially men) think you’re brilliant if you admire something about them that nobody else notices.

    I’ll argue the “especially men” here. This is a very common weakness of all humans. I think Casanova has the line in his memoirs, “flatter the beautiful about their intelligence and the intelligent about their beauty”. What he’s getting at is the same thing; notice someone for something most people don’t notice them for, and they love you for it. It’s very effective.

  7. What distinguishes this from the traditional idea that women have great power via their power to entice and control men?

  8. “What distinguishes this from the traditional idea that women have great power via their power to entice and control men?”

    The pretense that its empowerful and not anti-feminist.

  9. I’d say that 2, 3 & 4 are only true if you are a certain type of woman who behaves in a certain way. Yeah, I know, I really timid man isn’t going to be great at sales or marketing either, but a timid woman is going to be even more disadvantaged.

    And I also believe that the ways of being that men can have and still be successful at those things are far more varied than they are for women.

  10. “Maybe he runs 10Ks or hikes. Or secretly writes feminist sci fi.”

    Oh, then he’s visiting a strip club strictly as research for his feminist sci fi novel…!

  11. Suki – sure, if women had a total net advantage over men in sales we wouldn’t be having this conversation, or at least we’d be doing it elsewhere as there would be no need for feminism. There is a need for feminism, and so men continue to have the total net advantage. But that doesn’t mean women cannot be advantaged in certain areas.

    I agree with you, women do have to be more detailed and knowledgeable to get initial credibility than men do. Once you break through that barrier, though, you often do have more ability to close.

    You raise an interesting point w/r/t retail. Often the sale is up and down within 24 hours or much less. One has much less opportunity to develop credibility. So it could be that our different experiences have to do with the length of time of the transaction. I too find that I have to fight harder for initial credibility, less so now than 5 years ago because people in the market know me. But a placement takes 2-6 months, so there is time to build it.

    So retail might be inherently disadvantageous to women at a non-managerial level for this reason. That suggests two strategies if you wish to stay in sales – assessing opportunities within your company or other such companies to rise to a level where your title conveys quicker credibility, or looking for opportunities where there is a longer transaction term over which to build the relationship.

    PhysioProf: my husband had the same reaction. It’s one of the reasons I married him!

    CrysT: I agree. Any discussion about advantages for certain jobs assumes some initial hurdle has been crossed. If this dealt with teaching women’s studies, it’d be a teaching certificate; in this case it’s a certain level of assertiveness.

    Tam: “What distinguishes this from the traditional idea that women have great power via their power to entice and control men?”

    Good question. The traditional idea deals primarily with T&A. While those figure prominently in strip clubs, what many don’t get is how many other techniques can be learned in this kind of hardcore sales/marketing environment which don’t depend on T&A. Spend time in an SC and you’ll find Pam Anderson look-alikes who aren’t doing well and average-looking women (from a mainstream standpoint) making $2000 a night — consistently.

    My job now is heavily phone-centric, and the conversations I have are G-rated, but I’ve found a lot of these things effective.

  12. Kelsey — sales and marketing, and much of business, ARE manipulation.

    To me, a key part of feminism is actually implementing it. To implement it, we will need legal, political and corporate changes. We will not convince these people by linking arms and singing kum bah yah, much as I wish this were the case. I feel that unless women are similarly situated to men vis a vis legal/political/corporate power, we won’t see adequate implementation of our beliefs and rights.

    Looking at what it takes to achieve such power, I hope you would agree that strategic, ethical manipulation is front and center.

  13. Tam – understood, but how are
    (1) confidently direct[ing] while [keeping a prospective partner or sales prospect] engaged is the best way to develop a “regular [customer, partner]”;
    (2) feeling more confident about sales ability and prospective success;
    (3) marketing more effectively by listening, picking up hints and areas of vulnerability, asking questions;
    (4) noticing different things about a job contact than others do; and
    (5) not being afraid or shamed about being ambitions

    = “traditional forms of feminine manipulation?”

    If they were, we’d be much farther ahead than we now are.

    I think you may be stuck on the initial context for this being strip clubs. I was too, before working in one. I don’t really think SCs are a unique form of business training for women that you can’t get elsewhere, of course, but for me these lessons were helpful in non-“traditional feminine” work. A lot of it seems obvious, but I’d never really believed it or applied it before. I think there is a tendency on the part of parents and educators to buy into a bit of what Buchanan is saying, and so women do not really get this training in the way men do.

  14. I honestly don’t think it’s the strip club context that is putting me off. It’s things like this:

    They did you a favor, or got a little more flattery than they’d get from another guy, or feel good that they made it easy for you. They often won’t understand that they were sold.

    It’s giving me “Heinlein woman” flashbacks, which is probably not fair. You do make a lot of points that are not in line with what I’m saying.

  15. I agree with Tam, this seems like… manipulation 101?

    Yup, and throw in a little normalized stereotypes from the gender binary 101, and we have ourselves this blog post.

    The “take home message” of this post is unclear to me.

  16. “To me, a key part of feminism is actually implementing it. To implement it, we will need legal, political and corporate changes. We will not convince these people by linking arms and singing kum bah yah, much as I wish this were the case. I feel that unless women are similarly situated to men vis a vis legal/political/corporate power, we won’t see adequate implementation of our beliefs and rights.”

    Right, and as someone who actually works in the white collar world of marketing, I joke with my co-workers all the time that we practice evil magic.

    But by this nature, my job is not feminist. It might even be a little anti-feminist. Because as much as the “real world” relies on lies, manipulation, and shmoozing, it is the same system that provides so many problems for those of us trying to live a feminist life or create a more feminist world.

    As a woman in PR, I would rather have people sold on the selling points of the product or client, not the condescending/pitying, flirty “admiration” of male customers.

  17. Maybe I’m just a spoilsport, but I don’t think someone that is catering to someone’s whims, sexually no less, for money has power in any real sense of the word. It’s not even new, really, because that’s what women have been expected to do since forever and a day. Call me crazy, but I’d like some good old respect and power that had nothing to do with T&A, all right?

  18. I find sex work–“live” sex work, as opposed to say pornography–distasteful as the people in it are willingly contributing to (overwhelmingly) the infliction of the pain of infidelity on countless women and I have yet to hear a single sex worker address this aspect of the situation. I would also consider it antifeminist in that sense, enabling quite vigorously the not-so-subtle societal approval of men committing infidelity in this fashion.

  19. I totally agree with Tam and Kate.

    This article appears to be a hefty mix of gender essentialism and old-school attitudes towards what (if anything) women can do to gain power.

    I feel thoroughly depressed by the idea that the only way I can be successful in a career is to deliberately use my gender to manipulate and coerce, as opposed to being judged on my talents and merits like ‘everyone else’… that is, men.

    This account also excludes a whole load of people. What do these guidelines mean for butch lesbians, old women, transgender women or disabled women??? Hmm.

  20. Maybe I’m just a spoilsport, but I don’t think someone that is catering to someone’s whims, sexually no less, for money has power in any real sense of the word

    Do you believe women gain power in traditional heterosexual, patriarchal marriage to powerful, affluent men? I don’t see how the marital acquisition of money/power is any different than what Octo is discussing here, except that one path to power is considered “respectable” for women and the other isn’t.

    Rich men usually marry young, attractive women, don’t they? And isn’t power then conferred upon these women via these men’s class, even if they weren’t seeking it?

    I mean, heterosexual marriage is a path to power too, but nobody seems to be objecting to that. Is stripping for a shift you know will end, as exploitive as a traditional marriage that is expected to last forever?

    (Note: I don’t pretend to know the answers. Just asking a few questions here, to open the discussion up a bit. Octo can tell me if I’m out of line!)

  21. there’s no reason why this level of focus and ambition cannot extend to other job environments. I have no doubt that if this were the case, we would be deadly at all levels of employment

    Cool!

    The point is to be as focused and ambitious as men. Not more or less. The Magic Carpet proves it’s possible.

  22. You know what I’m getting from all this? Even more confirmation that the whole world of “sales” and “marketing” is completely antithetical to feminist ideals–no matter who is selling what to whom.

    “heterosexual marriage is a path to power too, but nobody seems to be objecting to that”

    EXCUSE ME????!? On what planet does “nobody,” especially not feminists, object to that? Not Earth, that’s for sure.

  23. Kate – I’m sorry it’s unclear. I’ll refer you to Donna’s comment.

    Kelsey – note that I said “strategic, ethical manipulation” instead of “lies.” But if you feel that schmoozing or manipulation, which are both pretty critical business skills, are antifeminist, then I disagree. Again, you need power to implement feminist rights, and it’s hard to get it without these tactics. If “living a feminist life” means men actually selling and women relying on letting the client’s selling points sell themselves, then we will stay behind and we won’t get that opportunity. To me that’s no solution.

    Jen – you’re not a spoilsport at all. I agree with you. If you read the post you will see that I specifically say I don’t see sex work as a feminist act, and the linked posts talk about why I believe it’s not an ideal way for women to build up equity vis a vis men. I have departed from the path of various pro-sex-work activists by saying I do not see it as something to actively encourage women to do and I don’t see it as a good long term alternative in most cases. At the same time, I feel everyone should be able to decide what to do with their lives.

    So we’re on the same page. The goal here is to say that in my own case, I got some value from the experience, APART from the T&A aspect, that could be extended to other jobs like my current one as a partner in a placement firm, or other marketing/sales-oriented jobs. Not that other people need to follow in my exact footsteps!

    Tam – yeah, the portion you quoted is a bit manipulative in a “feminine wiles” way. But I don’t think in a sexual way. I have found that women of all shapes, sizes and “patriarchal-desirability” levels are just better at helping business prospects – of both genders — feel good about themselves. I’ve worked with women and men trying to sell or market to me, and I find myself responding more when women do this, for some reason. And I’m not (or, maybe 98% of the time not) attracted to women.

    Daisy – I agree, many women who feel that commerce is antifeminist are married to men who engage in it and live off the proceeds of this activity while condemning it (hmm, what’s the word for that again?). Personally, I wish there were a way to bridge the power gap with men by every single one of us devoting ourselves to helping and teaching professions. Until then (not holding my breath), I think we need to look at what is going to allow us to get distribution of women – all races, sizes, income levels, etc. – in positions of responsibility such that we can have influence. I don’t think we can have influence otherwise short of some hypothetical “revolution” for which which nobody has been able to provide a blueprint (or one I’ve seen, anyway).

  24. In the responses to this post, it seems like Octogalore is being critiqued for sharing her observations and experiences at her job, how certain business acumen learned in one setting has successfully translated to another. “Manipulation” is a verb that, at least to me, is often negatively attributed to women, for pretty much using what we’ve got (femininity). When men use what they’ve got, i.e. male privilege (sailing by on other peoples’ notions of male superiority), we say that they’ve got that male privilege whether they want it or not, and often, that’s excuse enough for men to seem “honest” even while keeping their gender-based privilege. If one isn’t comfortable using her woman-ness in an advantageous way, that’s fine, but recognizing the power/gender dynamics in the world and utilizing them successfully- whether in stripping or sales or marketing- shouldn’t reflect negatively on the woman. I think using qualities of femininity that are usually seen as a liability- good listening, attention to detail, use of “flirtatiousness”- can be just as easily seen as innovative, resourceful, keen-witted, and perhaps at times necessary for survival or success. Just because we don’t want the world to be a certain way doesn’t mean that it isn’t a certain way. The “take home lesson” I got from this is that confidence is really the key to women’s success in any arena, however one chooses to persue her work.

  25. daisydeadhead, what site are you reading? i’m pretty this and similar sites often focus on traditional, patriarchal marriage as a bad thing, mkay? and NO, in fact, the women married to the donald trumps of the world DON’T magically obtain their own personal power via marriage. that’s ludicrous.

  26. Haley, how awesome are you? Yes: “Just because we don’t want the world to be a certain way doesn’t mean that it isn’t a certain way” is a big obstacle right now to equality for women.

    It’s kind of like: the pot of gold, or equal power/opportunity for women, is at the end of a certain path. Or, at least, nobody has been able to demonstrate how any other path would lead to it. And yet, the conversation sometimes centers around:

    1) but I don’t like the trees and flowers on that path, they are not consistent with the pot of gold;

    rather than

    2) how do we navigate the path most smoothly?

  27. I’m in a sales position right now and have to say I resent the “all commerce is anti-feminist” trope, because look, I can sit at my job all day in the feminist way, laying out the details of whatever product I’m selling and hoping that clients will throw themselves at my wares without any massage on my part. No one in my department can afford to live off of their base pay and entertain the kind of naivete that says “selling” is something that happens to other people out of sheer good luck — or that selling is inherently bad — because we’re all supposed to earn commission. That’s the incentive. Commission is what makes my sad salary liveable, and to get commission, or hell, to move around in any job, you have to learn how to hustle. Women are shied away from the hustling kinds of jobs because they’re told they aren’t assertive enough or competitive enough (or smart enough) (or can’t hustle enough, can’t play with the big boys enough) to make good money. And all that’s bullshit.

    The way I read it, Octogalore is talking about hustling, and hustling at a strip club is no different from the hustle at any other job, except as she puts it the commerce of a strip club is laid that more bare (so to speak). You learn how to talk to certain people in certain ways to gain their favor, you convince certain people of the value of your work or wares using different kinds of rhetoric, and then you give them the wares and works that you’ve convinced them they need. Then you bill ’em. The rhetoric, the hustle, is the body, it’s the venue, it’s the verbiage and the argument. In the strip club it’s the booty and the flirtation, and in the conference room it’s the power suit and air-tight contracts, but the ends are the same. Meanwhile we can sit around and talk about whether this job is feminist, or that job is feminist, even though nobody here is even trying to have that conversation. “There are still plenty of feminist lessons to be learned” in looking at shit around you and making observations about it. We’ve still got to live.

    There’s no shame in earning a paycheck, there is no fucking shame in earning a living, and I’m really tired of being told by fellow feminists that the only good paycheck is a non-profit, helping the helpless kind of paycheck (god forbid you bring up the hustle involved in fundraising — the people will donate out of the goodness of their hearts!).

    If the only feminist methods of earning money are the way some folks would seem to have it, the only feminist work would be done by those with a big enough trust fund to afford it.

  28. K, what I read Daisy as saying is not that she thinks power obtained via marrying rich is the ideal kind or the kind which will best sustain the individual or empower other women. Just that money is a kind of power, getting it via marriage is a less strategically sound way to do it, yet it isn’t as often criticized.

    And she’s right. Sure, this site and others have had critiques of hetero marriage. But often those critiques do not focus around that issue! Money is mostly verboten in these discussions, it’s all around behaviors. But the bottom line is that many women who criticize pursuing capitalist endeavors and who criticize hetero marriage on more esoteric, philosophical grounds are actually deriving financial support from hubby or daddy. That’s trading on T&A just as much as a stripper does, IMO.

  29. The thing is, using “feminine wiles” (to put it negatively) or the advantages that women may inherently have access to, in business, may not be appealing to people who want women to be seen by men the way men see other men. You know, full-personhood, taken seriously, treated with respect, given the benefit of the doubt, etc. I want these things too and often feel that the more attention I call to my femininity, the less I am likely to be taken “seriously.” But I guess I’ve gotta ask myself, who takes me more “seriously”, the person or institution who pays lip service to my equality while paying me shit (and thinking who knows what that they’re not saying), or the one who thinks of me as a “woman” and compensates me much better?

    It’s also worth noting that some people’s gender identity and/or personality are just not made for this sort of thing. I feel like there’s a given of femme gender presentation on behalf of the “seller,” and also someone who doesn’t mind sacrificing a little pride in the immediate for the eventual payoff. And I definitely think different tactics work differently depending on what’s being sold. But in the “things I can’t control” category: Men will never see/treat me like a man, because I’m not. They’re, you know, “visual.” Any resoluteness to capitalize on this fact, even in a respectful way, and in a “respectable” field, seems to evoke anger at women who choose to do so. But seriously, if we were all a little more unapologetic about strategically incorporating our, ahem, advantages, maybe that could be one more avenue that women could utilize (or not) in the quest for equality. It means being confident and powerful, not being perfect-looking and I don’t think it’s just fake power or power we should just throw away. Lots of women are totally exacting about our own appearances, even if we aren’t consciously using them to get ahead. Why not reap the benefits of what we put ourselves through anyways? We think that equal can’t mean “different,” as in practice it’s usually not, but since we, in some ways, ARE different, where does that leave us?

    P.S. Per my last post…I know that “manipulation” is a noun. d’oh 🙂

  30. I think some people here tend to equate feminism with anti-capitalism. which is well and good and tends to fit with my personal philosophy as well.

    but I still gots to live in the world I’m in, and make a living while I’m at it, since I don’t have a trust fund that allows me to spend my time volunteering for feminist causes.

    so, I mean, what’s a girl to do? where’s she allowed to work? How much femme presentation is she allowed before she’s not “feminist” enough?

  31. FWIW, Octagalore’s post isn’t all about “feminine wiles,” and I’m irritated that people are reading this as an endorsement of “feminine manipulation” as opposed to the larger points of business and commerce and business culture that O is narrating.

  32. Lauren said:

    Women are shied away from the hustling kinds of jobs because they’re told they aren’t assertive enough or competitive enough (or smart enough) (or can’t hustle enough, can’t play with the big boys enough) to make good money. And all that’s bullshit.

    Absolutely, and that’s what makes women setting up additional obstacles (shame, it’s antifeminist, etc.) especially frustrating. With the “patriarchy” at our backs pulling us back, and our fellow females at our sides giving us “helpful” raps on the wrist, we’ve got a lot of stick and not enough carrot.

    I love your word “hustle,” that’s exactly what “top girls” in SCs are called – hustlers. Often the hustlers are not the best looking gals from a mainstream standpoint in the club. Similarly in any job, the hustlers are often not those who would appear from the outside to be technically the most qualified.

    Like in my gig, legal placement. It’s sad for me (well, not that sad, none of my candidates are on the bread line) when I get a double Harvard, law review, attorney candidate, who’s written brilliant articles, clerked for the Supreme Court, gotten great verdicts for clients in court, asking me if I can her or him find a new job, and I have to say no if s/he does not have “portable business” which means clients who will follow him/her from the current firm to a new firm. I notice that often those with “portable business” aren’t the smartest or the best lawyers, but the best hustlers. Obviously there needs to be some technical skill, just like the strip club analogy.

    I find often that women who succeed in law are more likely to have the resume requirements than men, who more often can skirt those and still succeed. Often it seems like there’s not the level of confidence that guys who went to barely-accredited schools have that they can go out and get clients and make the big money that way. I wonder if this translates to other endeavors – I notice that many CEOs like Gates or Jobs don’t have college degrees, and I have run into, anecdotally, more men of all races who came from poorer backgrounds and got ahead than their female equivalents. Much of this is culturally aided and abetted, not our fault, but we shouldn’t help that along.

    Obviously there are many other roadblocks dealing with race, income, etc. to breaking out of a box dictated by starting income or credentials. To me, these kinds of roadblocks are what I’m most passionate about working on eventually. There’s a limit to what one person or one company or even all of us together can do to end world poverty, not that we shouldn’t try, but helping with economic resources and also business tactical resources are both critical.

    And Lauren is totally right w/r/t:

    “If the only feminist methods of earning money are the way some folks would seem to have it, the only feminist work would be done by those with a big enough trust fund to afford it.”

    Creating our own funding is certainly more feminist, in my way of thinking, than piggybacking on that of others while disdaining it.

  33. Haley said:

    It’s also worth noting that some people’s gender identity and/or personality are just not made for this sort of thing. I feel like there’s a given of femme gender presentation on behalf of the “seller,” and also someone who doesn’t mind sacrificing a little pride in the immediate for the eventual payoff.

    I think definitely femme gender presentation can help. It’s a positive if accompanied by enough other skills that it can’t be used against one easily. I wouldn’t advocate that anyone who wouldn’t feel comfortable or natural doing it as a matter of course do it, just that it doesn’t hurt to use otherwise.

    I also don’t think femme is essential. I’m thinking of some bio pictures of female managing partners of law firms I could point you to which would demonstrate that, only for all I know some of them read here. But they all have some “oomph.” Some kind of confident charisma that they have no problem using, and it works.

    An example – the west coast practice head of one of our clients. She’s in her 50’s. About 30-40 extra pounds from a “mainstream” POV. She dresses snappily, mostly in pants suits, but not showily in terms of skin. She’s a rock solid closer. She knows how to be warm (“feminity?”), tough, profane sometimes in a “we’re all friends and family” way, how to throw in nitty gritty detail to show “I know my shit” and how to persuade. Having met her, I don’t see her as someone who is adopting an uncomfortable physical persona. I could also add that she has spearheaded female and minority mentoring programs because it’s true, but I don’t want to suggest that she, unlike similarly situated men, HAS to do that to earn the right not to be shamed.

    I’m not saying “this is accessible to everyone” but that this woman did not seem to feel that if she couldn’t use “femininity” or whatever you’d call her particular brand of “oomph” because it doesn’t look like Glamour Mag, and when you’re talking to her, she convinces you that she doesn’t need that.

    But if one does use femme presentation is that wrong? I’d say Hell No. Guys who are tall use that, guys with shoulders use that. How many U.S. Presidents do we know who were under 6′, anyone? Percentagewise? How many ex-football players make it big in corporate America, anyone? I know a large number. But we’re going to back off and not trade on our shit because that’s just not, oh I don’t know, let’s call it feminist because that’s the most shaming word we can think of. Um, no.

  34. Don’t really get this post despite reading all the comments. Although I guess I’m with the other people who said that it’s pretty difficult to equate stripping with power, I think people who think that are kidding themselves.

  35. letigre: You probably don’t get it because you probably only see “stripping = taking off clothes for men’s entertainment” when the business is more complex than that.

    Anybody can take off their clothes for men’s entertainment. It’s getting a shitload of money out of it that’s the key point being discussed here. How to get a shitload of money off the men? Have good sales skills.

    And good sales skills can be applied anywhere.

  36. Letigre: “Although I guess I’m with the other people who said that it’s pretty difficult to equate stripping with power.”

    Great! I’m one of them. Welcome to the club.

    Note: I do, however, equate reading comprehension with power.

  37. “There’s no shame in earning a paycheck, there is no fucking shame in earning a living, and I’m really tired of being told by fellow feminists that the only good paycheck is a non-profit, helping the helpless kind of paycheck”

    I hope my comment didn’t come across as implying that, Lauren. Like most of the rest of you, I’ve to do jobs I hated just to pay the bills. I get that. Even now, I’m in the (temporary) job I’m in because it’s the only offer I had when I was in a desperate position. And believe me, I know how lucky I am that it does happen to be in the public sector. But again, I think it’s possible to acknowledge that we have to keep body and soul together somehow, so we do these private sector jobs, but we still recognise how shit the philosophies behind them are.

    It’s like trying to be an ethical consumer. I don’t think even the rich can pull that off, so what hope do those of us who live paycheck to paycheck have? If I don’t buy shitty, probably sweatshop-produced work clothes, I don’t have an “acceptable” enough wardrobe to go to work in–even in my nice, public-sector workplace. And I don’t have any other options, other than becoming homeless, than doing the jobs I can get.

    But I still hate the system that puts us in this bind.

  38. Crys T: I hear you. The irritation for me is the disconnect between the fantasy feminist world and the fact that we live in the world we live in. My biggest critics in my real life are women, feminist women, who live off the spoils of their male partners’ earnings while shitting on my sales position (in admittedly a shitty company with shitty earnings). In short, the people who can afford to sit around and leisurely pick their employers — none of which involve the nastiness of middle management and the pushing of inferior product –irritate the fuck out of me, because the rest of us don’t have a choice but to work for the first job that takes us up off the street.

  39. Lauren — yes, sadly hypocrisy is not unique to antifeminists.

    RE your sales position — ever thought about doing something with higher upside like real estate or placement? Granted one has to get in bed with the idea of making an investment in a sordidly capitalistic endeavor that, if it pays off, could get your Lefty Blogger card revoked.

    Anyway, if you want to chat further about any of this, drop me an email.

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