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Rape Jokes Aren’t Funny, Nigel Lythgoe

KaeLyn

I have a dirty, dirty confession to make. I have a sick love of reality TV shows. Specifically: Project Runway, So You Think You Can Dance, American Idol, Dancing with the Stars, Hells Kitchen, and Top Chef. I know I shouldn’t support the Fox shows, but it is such a guilty pleasure. Yup…I even pay for DVR so I don’t miss anything.

Nigel Lythgoe, the executive producer of and judge on So You Think You Can Dance regularly makes pervy sexist comments about the scantily clad young dancers on the show. I’ve learned to live with this and at least feel like the playing field is equal when the other judge, Mary Murphy, or one of the female guest judges make similar comments about the men. To be fair, Nigel does also make fun of one dancer, Joshua, for having a huge booty, and frequently comments on the mens’ abs with joking envy. Now all this offensive- but-not-enraging sexism aside, I was appalled…APPALLED…when Nigel made this joke on Wednesday night. By appalled, I mean PISSED OFF. Why do men feel like they can get away with this shit?! Watch the video after the jump.

If you’re not interested in watching the whole video (though the choreography, as well as Cat Deeley’s reaction to Twitch, is worth critiquing), skip to 2:08 to see the comment by Nigel I am referring to. It kind of helps to watch the dance to put it in context, though…

Nigel – WTF?! I couldn’t believe he made a (cloaked, I suppose) rape joke on a “family-friendly” nationally syndicated TV show. And that everyone thought it was hilarious! “Hahaha. The dance was about a woman trying to get in the door, but Nigel is saying that when women come to his house, they bang on the door to get out but he won’t let them.” How fucking funny… Then he had the audacity to sexually harass Mary Murphy in a situation where she obviously had to play along or look like a big party-pooper. It was disgusting and tasteless. And I was about to take a deep breath and move on until they REPLAYED the clip of Nigel’s rape-affirming joke on last night’s elimination show. Apparently, the producers of Fox thought it was pretty clever and, given that Nigel is the executive producer of So You Think You Can Dance, he must have amused himself, too. So I decided right then and there…that I needed to hear from you that this is as outrageous and mysogynist as I feel it is…and that the feminist community needed to recognize what a douchebag Nigel Lythgoe is. Everybody should write Fox and tell them that jokes about victimizing women aren’t funny.

Thoughts? Rants? Reality TV confessions?

67 thoughts on Rape Jokes Aren’t Funny, Nigel Lythgoe

  1. A quote of the actual joke he made would be helpful.

    (can’t listen to sound when browsing at work, and some readers are deaf…)

  2. Rape Jokes Seem To Be On The Rise

    I live in Athens, GA… The link below goes to a free local events newpaper called the Flagpole…. and an extremely offensive comic that is currently in it….
    if you agree with me… that this type of slander should not be tolerated please leave a comment on the site…. and let the editor know that this kind of social dialogue should not be freely advertised in any community…
    Free speech applies to all… so please, tell this guy what you think about
    his implying the humor in raping a handicapped homeless woman… his explanation was that I don’t understand sarcasm….

    do something ….
    then spread the word by forwarding the link….

    http://flagpole.com/Comics/JoeHavasy/2008-07-23

    thank you….

    Adam Smith

  3. I’ve learned to live with this and at least feel like the playing field is equal when the other judge, Mary Murphy, or one of the female guest judges make similar comments about the men. To be fair, Nigel does also make fun of one dancer, Joshua, for having a huge booty, and frequently comments on the mens’ abs with joking envy. Now all this offensive- but-not-enraging sexism aside, I was appalled…APPALLED…when Nigel made this joke on Wednesday night. By appalled, I mean PISSED OFF. Why do men feel like they can get away with this shit?!

    You answered your own question at the beginning of that paragraph.

    Because you’re not the only woman who ignores it, minimizes it, shrugs it off for year after year, telling yourself it’s not so bad.

    This is how animal training works: failure to punish an offense is a reward for that offense. Let your dog steal scraps from the table month in, month out – and then you’re shocked when he snatches the whole steak that you were going to have for family dinner? You told him it was okay when you didn’t have the heart to crate him for stealing a cookie or a hot dog now and then. Let your horse shove and snatch the bit because you don’t want the confrontation of taking her back around the course until she does it properly – and then be astonished when she causes an accident on the trail, doing the same thing that you let her do every week in the ring…

    By women laughing and/or pretending that Nigel hasn’t been saying misogynist things all these times, Nigel has learned that he can say anything about women and get away with it, so of course he’s going to up the ante. That’s what social animals do, and why it is so hard to train them out of it, including small children.

    (Partly they feel it monstrously unfair: I was just doing what I always do, that you never complained about before, and now all the sudden you’re yelling at me because I jumped on the sofa? How is a cat supposed to know that THIS sofa is different, this is your new leather sofa that you value so much, and don’t want clawmarks on? How is a toddler supposed to know that what’s “cute” at home is embarrassing to parents in public, when they imitate Mommy and Daddy’s “blue” language?)

  4. The dance itself was bad enough…!

    She was getting dragged about by the hair and kicking!

    If the dance was about the woman trying to get in the door (which it doesn’t look like to me), the implication is that rape turns women on, and violence leaves us begging for more.

    His joke was disgusting and upsetting – and so was the dance.

  5. Nigel isn’t a well-trained dog. Most people know there are lines they probably shouldn’t cross.

    Nothing wrong with the actual dance.

    Nigel’s actual comment… Not funny. I can see how he was trying to be light-hearted in the wake of a performance that tried to be both ironic and intense. If you notice, he was actually trying to make fun of himself – he’s had women banging on his door, of course, he’s a ladies man! Oops, they were just trying to get out! Bwahaha! Problem is, it just doesn’t work. Plenty of different jokes you could make in that context, without coming out with the whole “rape is hilarious” thing that seems to be pervasive in our culture.

    Although, I make jokes about “getting raped” by an examination or a difficult task all the time, I must say. Constantly worrying about the possibility of sexual assault gets me all wound up, so I take the edge off.

    Perhaps I am no better than Nigel.

  6. You’ve been “going along” with the sexist commentary all along, and yet you finally reached a point where the sexism has pissed you off? Then you feed in to sexism yourself when you call him a “douchebag” (a term that I find completely offensive and sexist in itself).

    I agree that it is a disgusting comment, but perhaps the outrage should have begun earlier.

  8. Nigel is a skeevy geezer, and always has been. The comment on Wednesday was a particularly hurl-inducing one, and the dance was disgusting. It wasn’t anything we don’t see anywhere else, but I don’t think I’ve seen so much conflation of sex and violence on SYTYCD before, with a special “Bitches is crazay!” twist. Mia Michaels (the choreographer, who regularly takes bites out of the female dancers) may have some issues…

    And quite apart from that, the choreography totally gave Twitch a pass–he had to jump around a few times, but he was almost as much of a prop for Katee as the door.

  9. I couldn’t hear anything really so I’ll have to check it on my own DVR when I get home tonight.

    I will say though, I thought the actual choreography (minus the story it was telling) and the dancers’ performance were amazing. I have to be honest that I don’t much pay attention to the storytelling for most of the dances on this show b/c I’m too busy trying to see what they’re doing with their bodies or something. Plus usually it’s something corny/campy, so I’ve learned through the seasons to ignore it.

    Nigel is a big fat slimeball. I think his comments are usually just attempts at being cool, hip, with it, whatever he wants to call it. He almost always falls flat on his face, so I’ve learned to ignore him too unless he’s actually talking about the dancing.

    And Mia Michaels is obviously dealing with her own issues through her choreography, but it makes for some very honest emotion and, therefore, very amazing pieces. Most of my favorite routines have been choreographed by her (hello– Travis & Heidi with the park bench, holy crap).

  10. I’m not coming down on the side of Nigel because he is horny and I usually don’t listen to the judges comments when watching the show although I havne’t really gotten to watch it this season.

    However, I’ll admit the dance was in no way Mia Michaels best but I don’t think there is anything wrong wth using dance to show sex or violence. One of the most moving pieces I’ve seen was in my college dance show where it was a commentary on the Lacey Peterson case/violence against women and families. It was incredibly distrubing but incredibliy moving as well.

  11. I’d just like to say, to the person who thinks “douchebag” is a sexist remark:

    Douches aren’t exactly good for a woman’s vaginal health. In fact, from what I understood, their primary function is to reduce the “bad” (normal!) vaginal fluids and bacteria because Teh Menz think that a normal, healthy vagina is gross. They might even have to touch it at some point!

    So if you’re saying that Nigel is a useless anti-woman bag of goop, then I’ll totally agree with you there.

  12. “By women laughing and/or pretending that Nigel hasn’t been saying misogynist things all these times, Nigel has learned that he can say anything about women and get away with it, so of course he’s going to up the ante.”

    On the contrary. Nigel has learned that because other men are willing to rape or beat women, that women will laugh and go along with a “joke” in an effort to seem less threatening to men. Nigel has learned that, despite his own feeling of inferiority around women, other men have used force and threat to create socialized women that will respond to his dominance displays with laughter and submission.

  13. I was pretty shocked when I heard the comment the other night as well (and when they repeated it). I was also bothered by the fact that both of the Katee/Twitch routines amounted to her throwing herself/borderline stalking him.

  14. Yeah, I agree with Muse: douches are a sexist tool of the patriarchy. Calling someone a sexist tool of the patriarchy is therefore not a sexist insult.

    And for those picking on KaeLyn for watching the show, I have to say that I don’t watch it, so I could be wrong — but there is a difference between obnoxious sexist jabs and over-the-top misogyny. Clearly what happened here is the latter, and the impression I’m getting is that what this douche normally engages in is the former. Obviously both are wrong, but there is a big bright line between a skeezy “I’d hit that” and “I’d lock you in my house and not let you leave no matter how much you beg!”

  15. “On the contrary. Nigel has learned that because other men are willing to rape or beat women, that women will laugh and go along with a “joke” in an effort to seem less threatening to men. Nigel has learned that, despite his own feeling of inferiority around women, other men have used force and threat to create socialized women that will respond to his dominance displays with laughter and submission.”

    Exactly – well said, Q Grrl.

  16. Um, as far as the subject matter of the routine… it was pretty clear to me that the woman was coming on to the man, and that he was trying to kick her out. Did you guys miss the three separate times he pushes her out the door, or the thirty-second bit where she’s pounding on the door and he won’t let her in, or the part when she does get back in and chases him around the stage? In fact, since she grabs him and kisses him at the beginning, if anything [i]he’s[/i] the one being sexually violated. Yes, he drags her around the stage and shoves her, but that’s not aggression if she’s the aggressor.

  17. I am addicted to SYTYCD and Project Runway.

    Nigel’s comments are increasingly appalling, and this one crossed the line. It was awful. I’m so used to him being creepy I almost didn’t notice how much worse this was. Almost.

    I loved the dance; the choreographer described the woman as “co-dependent,” and the dancer described her as “psycho ex-girlfriend.” Certainly the latter description especially has a lot of cultural baggage, and the dances on the show are very reflective of culture and personality; there are stories about lost love and slutty girls and nerdy boys and longing and workaholic men with stay-at-home wives and all of this. Most of the stories are heteronormative and unquestioning of culture.

    But whatever. The dances reflect culture and are a part of the culture they reflect and they’re not meant to be progressive. They’re meant to be art. They can be seen as critiques or reflections or personal statements, not necessarily agreements.

    This dance was wonderful because the moves were creative and interesting and exciting, the emotion was intense, it flowed well, it used prop and costume well, it had both simplicity and complexity, and the execution was flawless.

    But no excuse for the kidnapping joke.

  18. I agree that it is a disgusting comment, but perhaps the outrage should have begun earlier.

    So because she wasn’t over-the-top offended before, she shouldn’t voice her offense now? That’s something of a silly standard, no?

    And douchebag is not a sexist insult.

  19. Have you guys ever been in the presence of a man that you didn’t know very well, and listened to him make a crack about rape? I was in this situation once, and it wasn’t in public or anything of the sort.

    So I laughed at it. I was very nervous, and I laughed it, because I was honestly scared I might provoke him somehow. It was the wrong kind of behaviour, looking back on it, because I’ve come to the conclusion that acting more assertive means that *most* people won’t peg you as a potential victim (though, as well all know, there isn’t a fullproof way to not be a victim to begin with).

    And I think if you’re working closely with someone, and if that person for whatever reason has more power or prestige than you do (does Nigel have anything of the sort? I don’t know), you might laugh at a similar comment as well.

    Or you might play along for the ratings of the show, or whatever it is that you think is necessary.

    Is this behaviour “right”? Well, no I don’t think it is. I know it wasn’t right of me to laugh like I did in the aforementioned situation I described, even though I was very young and wasn’t really sure what was happening anyway.

    But it’s all very interesting.

    In these specific situations, it seems like self-preservation usually goes against ideals.

  20. I am glad that I missed this weeks episode. I had been watching the series because I enjoy the dancing and trying to ignore him week after week. It finally became enough for me as well. There is just no excuse for his commentary week after week and he has ruined a perfectly good show for me. Dancing is an art form and is truly beautiful, there is no need to ruin it with his sexist commentary.

  22. By women laughing and/or pretending that Nigel hasn’t been saying misogynist things all these times, Nigel has learned that he can say anything about women and get away with it, so of course he’s going to up the ante.

    I agree with you, Bellatrys, that sexism is an often subversive and pervasive part of our society, especially when it comes to media. Which is why good, smart liberals don’t have TV’s. I’m not one of those people, so I do watch shows and people do say things that offend me. Even on really awesome shows like Project Runway…can I tell you how much Christian’s catch-phrase “hot tranny mess” pissed me off? And as long as we “tolerate” it, it will continue. However, I guess my point is that this crossed a line.

    For the record, I’ve never “laughed it off” when I hear a sexist remark. I’m always the “bitch without a sense of humor that ruins the moment.” I’m also the person that my friends are afraid of saying sexist things in front of for fear that I’ll jump down their throat. I’m not sure that I actually do that…but I’m glad that they at least think about it in my presence. That does not mean I’m going to live in a vacuum or turn off any program where a sexist remark is made. There’s a difference between Penn & Teller and SYTYCD when it comes to sexist content.

    If you notice, he was actually trying to make fun of himself – he’s had women banging on his door, of course, he’s a ladies man! Oops, they were just trying to get out! Bwahaha! Problem is, it just doesn’t work. Plenty of different jokes you could make in that context, without coming out with the whole “rape is hilarious” thing that seems to be pervasive in our culture. Although, I make jokes about “getting raped” by an examination or a difficult task all the time, I must say.

    And it may have been unintentional that it crossed the line, as I do believe Nigel was taking a stab at self-deprecating humour without thinking of the wider implications, as Natalia suggests. I think my biggest problem is that they played it AGAIN after they’d had the chance to realize how NOT FUNNY it was. And, personally, I don’t use “rape” to mean anything but what it is. I understand that some people do, but if the situation is safe to do so, I will sit people down and tell them why throwing “rape” around casually is offensive to survivors. And I firmly believe it is. Being sexually, physically, and emotionally attacked and violated is not even close to the same as failing a test. By comparing the two, we devalue the word and desensitize people that hear it to the reality of rape and sexual assault. I also respect the right to free speech, so I’m not telling you want to do, Natalia, but I think as a feminist it’s worth thinking about.

    Hells yes to everyone that says Mia favors the men over the women. As much as I love her choreography, she is constantly doting on the men when she guest judges and it really harsh on the women. I want to like her so much because she is also a loud, opinionated, strong woman who breaks the stereotype about dancers’ bodies. Unfortunately, this season especially, she has really shown a nasty sexist side.

    In fact, since she grabs him and kisses him at the beginning, if anything [i]he’s[/i] the one being sexually violated. Yes, he drags her around the stage and shoves her, but that’s not aggression if she’s the aggressor.

    Agreed. If you catch the little preview of their rehearsal, you’ll see that she is supposed to be the one chasing him. And, when I said it was interesting to critique, I actually was thinking that her actions towards him were bridging on abusive, not the other way around. And, as someone here commented earlier, that they were really playing up the “hysterical woman” thing. That said, dance is performance, and I expect (and get) a lot of stereotypical heterosexist and archetypal crap in the dance routines on SYTYCD.

    Nigel is a big fat slimeball. I think his comments are usually just attempts at being cool, hip, with it, whatever he wants to call it. He almost always falls flat on his face, so I’ve learned to ignore him too unless he’s actually talking about the dancing.

    I agree, but his comments are still unwarranted. Simon Cowell on American Idol is equally creepy and disgusting towards the female contestants. Sadly, I will probably still watch these shows. Almost all of us have a soft spot for some favorite TV show, movie, magazine, nostalgic cartoon, or other media vice that conflicts with our feminist values. (Add it to Jills Den of Antifeminist Vice) I will never even try to pretend that SYTYCD has any feminist value and I will seriously be writing Fox/Nigel about this week, mentioning all the sexist crap from the weeks leading up, too.

  23. What Q Grrl said. Men are not animals, or even two-year-olds. Most men have also been exposed to reasoned arguments against hurting and humiliating women–even against using coarse humor that relies on those scenarios. Nor are women their trainers. They don’t have an obligation to transcend and then impose social conditioning for the other half of the population to follow.

    Natalia (I can’t copy-paste, for some reason): I have been in that situation, but I can’t say that I’ve ever actually been frightened by it. And I haven’t always complained, usually because I just have no idea what to say. It’s like with catcalls. “That’s really not funny. No, really. NO. REALLY,” seems to work about as well as yelling at my cat. If anyone’s got a pithy way of slapping down rape humor, I’m all ears.

  24. Being sexually, physically, and emotionally attacked and violated is not even close to the same as failing a test.

    Oh, I know. Having been there.

    Which is part of the reason why I try to somehow minimize its nature in my own conscience. Because the idea that it might happen again (and that I would have, for that matter, “deserved” it) quite literally makes my brain overload at times.

    But I’m not going to say it isn’t problematic either.

    I personally don’t like it when people use the whole “rape” thing in an argument, especially an online argument. Someone will get angered by what someone else says, and liken their comments to a “rape.”

  25. I really didn’t read this as a “pro-rape” joke. I read it as an “anti-rapist” joke.

    Nigel constantly makes fun of himself for being old. The joke was “I’m so pathetic that the only way I could get a woman is to lock her in and maybe rape her…” not “Locking women in and raping them is funny.” He was making fun of rapists, not rape victims.

    I was much more bothered by the subject of the dance. Twitch and Katee are wonderful and the choreography is wonderful, but presenting domestic violence as entertaining is sort of… not wonderful. Presenting a woman as the primary aggressor in a domestic violence is incident is also less than wonderful.

    On the other hand, some commentators have read the dance narrative as explicitly based on Amy Winehouse (see Katee’s hair and her false eyelashes) and her partner, and I took a little comfort in that.

  26. I really didn’t read this as a “pro-rape” joke. I read it as an “anti-rapist” joke.

    Nigel constantly makes fun of himself for being old. The joke was “I’m so pathetic that the only way I could get a woman is to lock her in and maybe rape her…” not “Locking women in and raping them is funny.” He was making fun of rapists, not rape victims.

    Uh, that’s still a rape joke. Joking that the reason that men rape is because they’re horny is one of the things that offends me most in this world. It’s not making fun of rapists, it’s excusing them. So.

  27. I also take some consolation in routines like this
    all female routine by Mia Michaels. It rocks my socks.

    I loved the way that the piece starts with the girls on the side of the stage, supporting each other and helping each other up onto the stage. I loved how once they are on the stage, they keep reaching up, reaching for the light, but not quite making it. I loved how they comfort each other at the end when all of their attempts to reach for the light fail.

  28. ““I’m so pathetic that the only way I could get a woman is to lock her in and maybe rape her…”

    Yeah, well. Check out the guys on your local sex offenders list. They aren’t all spring chickens with uncontrollable urges.

    And he’s not making fun of rapists. He’s blatently saying that the only thing keeping him from raping is his veneer of civility, because of *course* we all know he wouldn’t *really* do this, right? Right?

    The “humour” of his statement lies in the male-promoted, society wide assumption that only the truly pathetic “have” to rape, which is quite contrary to women’s experiences of rape. I won’t even delve into his choice to use words such as “get” and “have”. Or I will delve just enough to say that his transparent use of a rape narrative manages to obscure his blatant objectification of women.

  29. I haven’t been able to watch much this season but i do remember seeing a bit of a mean streak in Mia during the auditons rounds that I didn’t recall from seasons past. I do think that Mia is generally harder on the girls and almots expects more from them which is why I thinks he focuses her compliments on the men more often.

  30. Just to be clear, KaeLyn, I wasn’t thinking that you were saying the dance was romanticizing sexual violence or anything. I was responding to a couple of commenters who were making that complaint. Probably should have mentioned that at some point.

  31. Misspelled, I wanted to respond to your post up thread, but it took me a while to spot what was bothering me:

    “Um, as far as the subject matter of the routine… it was pretty clear to me that the woman was coming on to the man, and that he was trying to kick her out. Did you guys miss the three separate times he pushes her out the door, or the thirty-second bit where she’s pounding on the door and he won’t let her in, or the part when she does get back in and chases him around the stage? In fact, since she grabs him and kisses him at the beginning, if anything [i]he’s[/i] the one being sexually violated. Yes, he drags her around the stage and shoves her, but that’s not aggression if she’s the aggressor.”

    What makes you assume that the door doesn’t lead into her own home? If you read the door as a shared door, he most certainly is the aggressor. How many times does he slam it on her after throwing her out? How many times does he block that door with his body and gloat?

  32. Yeah, the choreography didn’t say “rape” to me, but it did still feel sexist, in that it looks like it’s supposed to be a stylized representation of a really stormy relationship (amazing physically, whatever else), but the way the dancers do it, she comes off like the unhinged one (alternately kicking him in the ass and crawling after him), and he just sort of…reacts to her, well–

    it looked more like they were dancing out “Fatal Attraction” than anything else. again, still had problems with it.

    I can’t hear thingie’s remarks very well. it doesn’t make sense anyway; it was banging on the door and not letting her IN, not out, at least in the choreography.

  34. q grrl, is it so hard for you to imagine the female as the agressor? Why is that? I saw what misspelled saw, I don’t get why you’d try and change it around. Same thing with Dawn, why is it less than wonderful to show a woman as the primary agressor in a domestic violence episode? Do you still believe the 90+% stat about who initiates DV?

  35. What makes you assume that the door doesn’t lead into her own home? If you read the door as a shared door, he most certainly is the aggressor. How many times does he slam it on her after throwing her out? How many times does he block that door with his body and gloat?

    Oh, come on. He’s already inside and she’s trying to get in. He repeatedly throws her out instead of just leaving himself. Not to mention that a) this is a short dance routine trying to tell a simple story in very plain body language, designed to be easy to understand, so unless the dancers completely missed their mark (which, I think it should be clear from watching, they didn’t), the most obvious interpretation IS the right one; and b) even if they DO share the space, she’s still trying to force herself on him and he has every right to kick her out.

  36. Nigel’s a sleaze – a classist one at that. I’m always hoping the camera will pan over some disgusted teenagers’ faces after one of his tin-eared remarks.

    However, I find it slightly unfair and intellectually vulgar to assume that a piece of visual art somehow claims to bear the burden of representation for an entire sex, that a Mia Michaels routine presents universal archetypes rather than a dynamic particular to that work, or that an artwork’s content is transparent to a value system.

  37. Why is my version invalid? I’m just pointing out that it is a possible (obviously!) interpretation of the dance routine.

  38. Gee, now I remember why I don’t watch TV any more…

    Seriously, this is crap. I can understand wanting to watch dancers dance. As technicians and artists, both of the dancers in that clip were great. The context of their artistry is what upsets me. The woman, obviously channeling her inner Amy Winehouse, dressed in an outfit that was not only provocative, but in no way matched her partner, was symbolically used, beaten, and rejected. At no point did I feel this was a critique of domestic violence- on the contrary, it felt like a glorification of it. The joke at the end- that was really just the icing on the cake. I know a lot of teenage girls who watch this show. This is what I imagine they are seeing and saying (judging by their comments, and my own memories as a teen):

    “Wow! That dancing was so hot! Didn’t she look so seductive? Wasn’t the whole scenario so tragic? Some women just can’t say no. And men- well, men are just like that, I guess. Wasn’t he sexy? I’d be crawling back to him, too. Maybe if I get some of that ‘smoky eye’ makeup like the female dancer was wearing, I could achieve that ‘look’ too…”

    That just scares the shit out of me. Sorry- it really does. If this had been a dance about the Holocaust,or a dance about slavery, or a dance about 9/11 that could be interpreted as a positive, or even neutral look at the events, would people just think it was good clean fun? Violence towards women is no different, yet it repeatedly gets a free pass in our society.

    Disgusting.

  39. Oh, come on. He’s already inside and she’s trying to get in. He repeatedly throws her out instead of just leaving himself. Not to mention that a) this is a short dance routine trying to tell a simple story in very plain body language, designed to be easy to understand, so unless the dancers completely missed their mark (which, I think it should be clear from watching, they didn’t), the most obvious interpretation IS the right one; and b) even if they DO share the space, she’s still trying to force herself on him and he has every right to kick her out.

    Does he have every right really? How many take possession of all of the marital assets when during a divorce proceeding while the wife lives in poverty with a half ass lawyer struggling to get her due. There is a larger social message at play here. How many times do you hear divorced men talking about their wives wanting something for nothing not caring that she and possibly their children are struggling to survive while he is living in luxury? This happens all to often. Him throwing her out the door may not represent guarding his physical body but his assets.

  40. This dance can be read in several ways. That’s what makes it good – or, at least, worthy of discussion (I’m not an accomplished dance critic by far).

  41. Damn right its’ as misogynist as you feel it is. You’re right. It’s a rape joke, and he should not have gotten away with it, and FOX is further showing it’s misogyny by repeating it.

  42. I’m in Aus so we’re still seeing auditions of this years show. I’m a big fan of SYTYCD even through I do mentaly grumble at some dance story choices. I’ll have to look at this when I’m not at work but Blergk! Nigel!
    I’m also surprised no one has bought up something that bothered me about Nigel since this show first began. He has a sexist view that is rather prevelent and has been talked about here before; that women can be ‘feminine’ or ‘masculine’ but the male dancers have to be ‘masculine’. It’s like he takes it as a big horrible thing for a male dancer to just dance gracefuly without intence power or sharp movements. It’s like he thinks if guys don’t dance like Big Macho Dancing Men then no boys anywhere will dance because people will think ‘dancing is teh gay’
    It seriously upsets me every time I see him do it because I’ve seen beautiful male dancers who dance in a ‘feminine’ fasion, mostly from asia.

  44. when Nigel made this joke on Wednesday night. By appalled, I mean PISSED OFF. Why do men feel like they can get away with this shit?!

    The answer is in your second sentence. You are not alone.

  45. yeah, what Torri said.

    I’ve just started watching SYTYCD? I love watching the routines, have been fast forwarding the commentary, but what little I’ve seen of Nigel (p.s. how perfect is it that for once it’s someone -actually named Nigel?-), he comes off like a real creep. Give ‘im the hook.

  46. a couple things
    frau sally benz, can you check the fatphobia please?

    and dawn (and others who are “quoting” folks on the show), its kind of important to not quote someone saying something they never said. nigel is a sexist idiot, but he didnt say anything about rape, so quoting him as saying that seems a bit sloppy and unfair. (im pretty sure you werent trying to actually quote him, but it just seems folks do this so messily and it ends up getting mixed up with the things people are actually saying.

  47. romham, right, not rape explicitly, just false imprisonment of in intimate partner/object of affection, which is not creepy at all…

    Nigel is a wanker but he won’t get canned because he is the SYTYCD executive producer. He also cannot seem to avoid making blatantly racist comments in just about every critique he’s ever given of a hip hop routine, always talking about hiphop and especially krumping as “scary” and “aggressive” and “gansta” and he may as well throw in “tribal” or “primitive” for good measure and cover all his stereotype bases. And the “Vindaloo Express” comment he made on Josh and Katee’s Bollywood number a few weeks back was classic WTF.

    All of this is why the DVR was invented, so I can watch only the dancing and none of the talking, and boil three hours of crap down to one hour of mostly excellent dance.

    And douchebag is just about as good as it gets in terms of an insult. Literal douches = seriously irritating and utterly fucking useless. Metaphorical douches = ditto. I don’t need either one in my life. I suspect that whoever first used the word douchebag as an insult was a brilliant lit majoring feminist. And if not, I’m happy to reclaim it just the same.

  48. Hi. I consider myself a feminist. I am an avid reader of your blog. I disagree with you STRONGLY. You are misinterpreting what Nigel said. Why does everything have to mean rape? He clearly was just being silly and saying that he’s repels women. He did not say that he forced the hypothetical woman to have sex with him, he said that we would not let her leave. Yes, making a joke about women not wanting to spend time with you sure can cause an unnecessary uproar.

  50. I thought the dance was a little weird, but if you think Nigel was alluding to rape, you’re nuts. He was basically making fun of himself as not good with women. NOTHING there was about rape. However, the dance itself was kind of sketchy and borderline offensive, for a variety of reasons.

  51. I was raped when I was at university many years ago, so I am quite sensitive to rape-tinged comments. When I heard Nigel’s remarks, however, rape didn’t occur to me at all. Like Shirley Mason and romham, I heard a silly man trying to make a lame joke about how women find him so repugnant that they can’t get out of his room fast enough. Dragging Mary Murphy into the morass was uncalled-for, and yes, the whole thing was sexist…but that’s Nigel’s shtick. If you watch SYTYCD, you’re there for the dancing, not because you adore Nigel Lythgoe.

    The attempts of the commentators on this blog to deconstruct the Mia Michaels dance routine as a thinly disguised rape and point to Nigel’s tasteless but basically innocuous remarks as an exemplar of rape-related misogyny strain my credulity and patience. Yes, there are real problems involving both women and rape in this world, but to read rape into everything, as Shirley points out, is ridiculous.

  52. Kristin – wanted you to know that Brownfemipower, Ilyka, and I believe others (possibly Kai?) have also written about the hate radio incident. I will try to find the links.

  53. feminist finance, i never said it wasnt creepy (which it obviously is) , or that hes not a sexist idiot (which he clearly is). i just think if we’re quoting, actually do it right (as in, what the person actually said), is all.

  55. As a dancer I can say that the performance was fantastic. Mia Michaels doesn’t just create combinations, she creates stories. The performance was obviously mimicking Amy Winehouse because of her outrageously teased hair. The excellent dance aside, I felt that Nigel’s comment was wrong and the fact that he brought Mary into it was slightly innappropriate, but I feel that he may have messed his words up and instead of saying let in he said let out. Not defending him on the comment but he could have mistakenly said it wrong. I don’t think he meant it to come off as rape.

  56. his joke is meant to be self-deprecating, that one would be banging to get out–not into–a room with Nigel. and his relationship with Mary may be close enough that they can make jokes like that with one another.

  57. For all of you people who find the dance offensive, or an insult to women, I would HAVE to disagree. I am a woman, and a dancer (have been for the majority of my life). Mia Michaels is a BRILLIANT choreographer, who as I read above, creates stories. If you watch the clip of Mia explaining her dance, it in NO way suggests rape. And also, dance is a form of art – it can be interpreted in different ways, but after hearing Mia’s explanation, you would all be hard pressed to justify that she objectified women.

    As for Nigel’s comments, I don’t think he was suggesting rape at all. Yes, he may make creepy, old man hitting on young girl comments, but everyone on this blog is WAY too serious about objectifying women and rape and blah blah. Maybe his comments are a bit crude, but it makes people watch the show.

    And on a final note (I’m sure I’ll get a great rise out of all of you), I find it offensive as a dancer that people commented on how Katee (yes, these dancers have names, and are REAL people), was objectified and bad. She is an incredibly talented dancer, and she performed that dance perfectly for the role she was given. Stop making dances like this, that are meant to entertain, into political rants. It ruins the nature and beauty of dance!

  58. Ok. Everyone, take a deep breath, please. I’m a woman, and that dance, although very flail-ish, DID NOT say “rape” to me *at all*. If anything, it said “crazy, overbearing chick who can’t take no for an answer”. We’ve all known (or have been!) someone like her at some point. And even though Nigel has made some seriously inappropriate comments this season (like the one about Joshua’s big butt…which I think is a TOTAL double standard that you find that comment acceptable), this wasn’t an underhanded rape comment. You people that make EVERYTHING into a rape/objectification/degradation issue need to not be so sensitive and overanalyze every little thing that you see/hear. This was a dance choreographed by a WOMAN with zero rape connotations. And it was a beautiful one at that.

    Nigel should be muted when he comes on TV, but NOT because he condones rape, like you think. He meant that comment as a slam to himself (or at least that’s how I heard it).

  59. For all the people trying to read something into the routine other than what it is (Katie keeps throwing herself at Twitch and he keeps pushing her away) please find a clip of the entire segment that discusses this dance. The choreographer (Mia Michaels) and the dancers CLEARLY state the intent. To watch the dance and try to read something into it which is clearly not it’s intention is as myopic as the joke that Nigel made. And do I think he was referring to rape? Absolutely not. Was it classless and probably not should have been made? Yep. But seriously, there are tons of worse things said on TV, the fact that this is drawing that much attention is baffling to me.

  60. Dance Fanatic,

    Katee has to dance what she is given to dance, but the emphasis on her sexuality is a bit much, even for a show that slants towards “hot young bodies doing sexy things.”

    Don’t you find the constant themes of the dances created for Katee to be a bit over-sexualized at this point? In the last two weeks (3/4 couples routines), she had a)you’re a promiscuous woman who Will is trying to reform (created by Tyce Delorio); b) you’re a psycho ex-girlfriend who won’t let go of your relationship with Twitch (drafted by Mia Michaels); and c) you’re an older woman pursuing a man who doesn’t want you (the “Sweet Georgia Brown” routine created, I think, by Tyce.)

    The emphasis on her sexuality is sort of bizarre, especially for a dancer who defined her previous work as “not very sexy.”

    (Of course, she got that lovely pas de deaux with Will, too, and fantastic roles in both the group Bollywood routine and the women’s “Ave Maria” routine.)

  61. dananddanica

    I’m familiar with the research in this area. The Bureau of Justice places a woman’s risk of being the victim of domestic violence at six times than of a man’s risk.

    Women are also much more likely to be the victim of murder or attempted murder and other more serious forms of abuse.

    Presenting the topic as entertainment, and then presenting it as a female aggressor, distorts the facts of the issue.

  63. Seriously? I feel like the majority of you are completely overanalyzing the situation. Are Nigel’s comments over the top? Yes. But it just baffles me how this is bleeding into the dance as well as Katee’s performances throughout the show. It’s overanalyzing like this, and the constant and unecessary ranting/argument building up against the dance/dancers/choreagraphy that turn away a lot of people from feminism. Now someone is going to read my comments and bash me about it but I think it’s no good to find fault/wrong in absolutely everything. I’m all for feminism, although I personally believe in equalism, it just irks me when any group has to nitpick things to argue about. I hope my words are understood and that I don’t wish to start an uproar.

  64. q girl, i’m also distressed by your comments here. you too, dawn.

    art ain’t reality. you can have your own opinions. your interpretations are certainly valid.

    but making her dance about rape is a violation of her artistic speech as a dancer. why is it that because she’s a woman, some of you assume she must be the victim as well? why must this indicate domestic violence? that’s far worse than nigel’s comment, where at least he speaks for himself and supposedly fictional women, not real ones. i’m not setting out to invalidate anyone’s personal experiences, but it sickens me when women do this to each other. we consistently make each other into symbols of our own experience, instead of celebrating how many ways there are to be female.

    that would be feminism. this is still objectifying a real woman, even if you think your way is better than her own.

  65. this comment is probably coming too late to be noticed by anyone – but here goes: (oh, and I didn’t read the entire comment thread, so I apologize if it’s already been said) I am also an avid watcher of the show and I saw Nigel make that comment and cringed! It was totally inappropriate, especially the part where he turns it on Mary Murphy.

    The other thing that pissed me off about that particular episode – at least, I think it was that one – was the guest judge…what’s her name, stereotypical dance teacher with the emaciated face and the high pony tail (black hair). She made a totally racist comment(s) to Twitch about how he was better equipped to dance one of the numbers because the music was blues, or jazz, or whatever (sorry, I can’t remember the exact details) and he was “street” so he knew how to feel the music from the inside out and really get down! ok – so all of that is based on my vague recollections of what she actually said, but what I got from it was that his blackness, animal like, street living, whatever – helped him really get into the piece and master it….unlike his counterparts on broadway or his partner, whose middle class upbringing just wouldn’t allow her to “get it” like he did…

  66. Yeah, for real. They are constantly racist on that show. I cringe whenever a hip hop routine comes on because I know there will be some really offensive comments and jokes coming. Apparently black men are big, sexual, masculine, animalistic, hardcore beasts that come from the street. And white girls are delicate flowers from the suburbs. And white boys…well, white boys that dance are probably gay and need to butch it up to make it. Yeah…

  67. Pingback: Why Rape Jokes Aren’t Funny « Gallivant by POPPY GALLICO

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