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Blogging along with Dr. Horrible’s Sing-Along Blog

Hello, Feministe! I haven’t posted much lately because I’ve managed to get my hands a little too full with other projects. I do have some posts on other subjects that I hope to have up soon, but I first I felt it was my duty to inform you all that this is the last weekend that you can see Joss Whedon’s new musical, Dr. Horrible’s Sing-Along Blog, for free. The final episode was just released this morning, and they’ll all be up until midnight on Sunday. (I assume that means Sunday night, not late tonight.) After that, you’ll have to buy them from iTunes.

But why are you blogging about this on Feministe, Holly? Haven’t you been criticized before for calling people’s attention to topics that are only tangentially related to feminism? Like say, racism? Never fear, ye pure of heart, because there’s definitely a point. For one thing, Joss Whedon is an unabashed feminist himself. The kind who says clearly that he shouldn’t get any medals for something every writer in Hollywood should be doing: writing strong female characters like Buffy (you know, the Vampire Slayer) or half the crew of the good ship Serenity.

For another thing, you know what the most fun part of Joss Whedon’s work is, at least for me? Dissecting it. Buffy has inspired quite a lot of scholarly work and criticism, to the point where it ostensibly has its own sub-field of cultural studies. (I have to admit at this point that I wrote my own undergraduate thesis about Buffy, although it was an anthropological study of early fan communities c. 1997. I also have to admit that I lost my taste for the show after the fifth season.) Although the most rabidly loyal of Whedonites may disagree about the need to be critical, I think a lot of other fans relish the fact that Whedon’s work often invites thoughtful questions, quirked eyebrows, even nitpicking.

So here’s what I want you to do. Go watch Dr. Horrible, all three episodes, while they’re still free. You’l be glad you did. Then come back here and click into the rest of this thread, where we’ll do SPOILERS and discussion and ask the question… is this a comic musical about a Nice GuyTM?

I’ll just tell you my answer off the bat. Yes, it is. NPH, displaying his gay-given talent for exaggerated caricatures of straight men yet again, is a quintessential Nice Guy. OK, so maybe the quintessential Nice Guy isn’t secretly making freeze rays in his apartment, but if you look at the love triangle in Dr. Horrible, the pattern becomes pretty clear. Even though he aspires to be a confident bad-ass, Dr. Horrible (aka Billy) can’t get the nerve up to talk to Penny, the woman of his dreams — a girl he’s only ever really looked at from afar.

His nemesis, the local superhero, is a macho bully who cheerfully advocates beating up nerds, weirdos, and perverts before they become menaces to society. Naturally, he has no qualms about asking Penny out after “rescuing” her by shoving her in a pile of garbage. Captain Hammer is a showboater who admits (when Penny’s not listening) that he’s in it for the sex and because he can take what Horrible wants. Hammer’s monologues and solo tunes are some of the most brilliant parts of the musical, skewering the traditional hyper-masculine superhero ideal in much the same way that the works of Frank Miller, Garth Ennis or Pat Mills do. His politics are a public relations ploy, and you get the idea that he’s become a superhero mostly so he can keep beating on misfits.*

Of course, the macho football-player jerk who gets the girls has ALWAYS been the archetypal archenemy of the Nice Guy. The Nice Guy might not even exist without the Mean Guy. This is why we constantly have to listen to Bad Science Reporting about how women are only really attracted to Mean Guys and assholes. To be fair, Billy Horrible doesn’t ever stoop as low as some of the worst specimens of Nice Guy that feminist blogs have collected over the years. He just listens, without ever actually asking her out, and gets more and more furious as the object of his unspoken affection talks about her new heroic boyfriend. (Sound familiar?)

This is a Joss Whedon drama, however, and metaphor plays a large part. Captain Hammer is explicit about the fact that “the Hammer means my penis.” Dr. Horrible just carries a ludicrously phallic-looking freeze ray, with which he initially hopes to stop time so he can actually talk to the terrifying and mysterious creature known as woman. Ultimately, it’s the angry, destructive clash between these two dicks that bring the plot to its climax and its close. What did you think of the ending? I’m still pondering what it says about women, Nice Guys, and macho jerks. (Well, the macho jerk’s ending is pretty obvious, I suppose.)

Interestingly and unusually for Joss Whedon, there is no “strong female character” in Dr. Horrible — at least not in the traditional sense. Penny, whose name and demeanor evoke the innocent silent-film damsel tied to railroad tracks, works at a homeless shelter and believes in compassion, optimism, and the potential for positive change. She doesn’t kick anyone’s ass, she just sings in a sweet light voice about hopeful subjects.

Penny ultimately seems turned off both by Hammer’s self-centered grandstanding and the glimpses she gets of Horrible’s “burn everything down, the world sucks” faux-revolutionary nihilism. She’s just an ordinary girl trying to make things a little better for people who are worse off than her. I have to admit this caught me off-guard; I was expecting a 11th hour reveal of ass-kicking potential. So I’m very curious to know what you all think of Penny… and of the way the story turns out for her.

* You know who would kick his ass, though? Bad Horse. The Thoroughbred of Sin. I mean, uh, Ghandi.


72 thoughts on Blogging along with Dr. Horrible’s Sing-Along Blog

  1. i’m on my way out the door to work, so i’ll have to come back to this, but:

    i am so glad you posted about this! after watching act three last night, i realized i had kind of been waiting for penny to turn ass kicking or something as well, traditional joss style (river at the end of serenity, obvs). anyways, i agree with you on the nice guy thing for sho.

    also: do i smell a sequel or is that just getting my hopes up?

  2. Wow. Joss Whedon really went for the pain and misery.

    I don’t like that Penny died. I don’t like that Penny died because of the stupidity of two men. I—I mean, as a storytelling move, it’s brilliant and heartbreaking and all that…

    …but now my heart is frickin’ broken ;.;

  3. I think it also pokes fun at the idea of a “hero”, and what constitutes good works (especially what gets the attention of the media). Captain Hammer is obviously only doing the superhero thing for media stardom and to pick up chicks. Dr. Horrible is too nihilistic to be of any good. Penny’s really the only character who seems to do work that actually makes a difference, but she doesn’t really get any praise or attention for it (maybe a comment on how different values are placed on men and women’s work- and how women are viewed when they have relationships with powerful men).

    Penny I’m still thinking about it. I don’t think the “quiet, meek” personality that she is is indicative that Whedon thinks a lot of female characters are like that (just look at his other shows)- I think that’s just the way she is, and she doesn’t think she should be thought less of because of that. (Just look at the press conference scene in Act III where Hammer calls her quiet and nerdy, and Penny looks horrified.)

    Dr. Horrible still has a lot of Nice Guy traits, but I think he treated Penny a bit better than Hammer. He hung out with her sometimes (eating frozen yogurt in the laundry) without the intent of trying to get laid. You can tell that Hammer is just putting up with Penny’s homeless shelter duties in order to get sex later. But Horrible still has the “oh poor me why don’t girls like me” thing that is kind of annoying when thought about beyond the context of the show.

    But, the ending was kinda… wtf? Just like that?

  4. The end made me FURIOUS, with regards to Penny. It’s a particularly disgusting comic book trope, “Women in Refrigerators.” That is, women who never get any agency in their own right, who die so the male hero (in this case, villain) can angst about them. But they never get to be fully-realized characters. I was really upset by the fact that 1) Penny had no agency whatsoever, and didn’t even really have a personality; and 2) Joss, who knows comic book tropes, didn’t even attempt to avoid this one.

    Not to mention that her death came directly after discussion of how she (gasp!) was having sex! And all the bad things that happened in Act III were directly because Penny chose to go with the frat boy and not the Nice Guy. So not only does that make it her own fault she was murdered, but gosh, it’ll teach women a lesson about being careful who they sleep with.

    More coherent, thought-out version of this rant here.

  5. Joss, who knows comic book tropes, didn’t even attempt to avoid this one.

    I kind of got the impression that he went directly for this trope, no? A lot of this stuff is extremely blatant in the musical. Penny is overshadowed by the two male characters and their cock-dueling. As Nicole says, she’s the only one who’s actually doing anything or espousing a positive vision, but she receives no praise or recognition for it. Finally, without doing anything, without being allowed to do anything, she ends up dead as a result of being fought over. “Men fight over woman, ironically killing woman in the process” is one of the most well-known and predictable plot twists of all time.

    Maybe I’m being a bit too charitable to Joss Whedon, but if you look at this ending in the context of his other work, I don’t think he’s the type who would blindly stumble into those tropes. The whole thing is definitely a tragedy, not a story of redemption and lessons learned and life moving on. Penny’s hopefulness crumbles with her death. As such, it may be that it’s showing a descriptive (albeit surreal and tragic) view of the world: “this is the way the world works, and how too many women die.” Rather than a prescriptive view of the world: “here’s an awesome supernatural fantasy involving women kicking ass!” Tragic description is not the usual method for superhero dramas though; maybe that’s why it resonates strangely and left me going “Wait, WTF?” at the end.

  6. I’m glad you posted about this… I have been watching with joy all week! And OH THE PAIN.

    I think it needs to be remembered that the movie is titled, Dr. Horrible’s Sing-Along Blog. The story is about him. And any fan of Joss knows that he has no problem killing someone off to further someone else’s story. Wash, Tara, Angel, Doyle, Anya, etc etc etc. You could say that he tends to kill of more women… but in Buffy he HAD MORE WOMEN ON THE SHOW. At the height of males on BtVS, with the credited cast there was THREE MEN, verses FOUR WOMEN. And that was before Giles left and dropped it down to two men. 😛

    Um. Anyway, point.

    I think Joss’s point was in the cross fires of male pissing contests, women suffer. Penny died because Dr. Horrible and Capitan Hammer were trying to destroy each other. The Nice Guy and the Jock were so busy trying to take the other one down, neither noticed Penny was still there and in harms way. I see it as a good example of how in the cross fires of the patriarchy, women get hurt. They get spoken over, hushed, turned into sexual objects, and killed.

    The man is a genius.

  7. Penny dying is the least of why I didn’t like the ending. It just didn’t seem to have any resolution. So, Dr. Horrible’s in the Evil League of Evil…and? Does he ever accomplish anything? Does he reign down fire? What?

  8. I actually really liked the ending… because it didn’t end. I think it doesn’t really matter if he got in the Evil League of Evil… his entire reason for taking over the world is gone.

    Nicole- you are right! I’ve already seen fanfic starting! I do love fandom. 😀

  9. One of the things I dislike about Whedon’s work is that if you don’t espouse violence when necessary, something is probably going to penetrate your abdomen at some point. Is it still a send-up of a comic book trope if he’s done it in every major series he’s worked on?

  10. Yeah, I wouldn’t call it a send-up so much as using it for his own ends. The guy does like killing nice harmless characters and making Bad Things Happen to Good People.

  11. Penny really was an empty shell, just an idea to be fought over. Ultimate sweetness and light, she was there to be pitied, to give herself out of gratitude, to be used to hurt Dr Horrible.

    Sure, the story was about Horrible, but I kept waiting for her to have some purpose other than be sexually bloodied and then less figuratively so.

  12. But in a kind of twisted way, the reason she got hurt was because Dr. Horrible hesitated and didn’t pull the trigger on Capt. Hammer when he should have. If he hadn’t flinched at the reality of murder, then Hammer would have been the only death, not her. So what does that say? Does it say that Nice Guys really ought to be more aggressive? I don’t know.

  13. Holly –

    Joss definitely went right for the trope,and didn’t stumble into it blindly; and that’s what bothers me. If Penny had been a character with agency, if we’d gotten see her get upset that Hammer was using her cause for his own glory, or if we got to see her freaked out by Horrible stalking her, or anything along those lines, then I’d be sad she died because, well, it’s sad. Instead, she lacked actual character and her death was not about her, or her cause, or her hope crumbling; it was about the men fighting over her, and how their struggled affected… Them.

    I do think the writing attempted to undermine that; the “What’s-Her-Name Dead” headline rings of that to me, because that’s pretty much how women are treated in most superhero stories. But I found that it failed because in order to undermine the women-in-refrigerator trope, we would actually have had to see people care about her as a person in her own right, and not just as Captain Hammer’s girlfriend or Dr. Horrible’s ideal. Instead, it plays into what it was attempting to criticize. She was a character who only existed for men to fight over, and not even her death was about her.

  14. First, NPH is my gay boyfriend. Okay, now that I got *that* out of the way:

    Both Horrible and HammerMan are trying to ‘make things’ better. However, the one person whose idea to ‘make things better’ that might actually, you know, help people, is Penny’s idea. She doesn’t kick ass, but she stands up to defend human rights (the rights of people to have shelter and food). Having her die added weight to the story, too, even if she *did* play into a major comic book cliche.

    Anyway, you also need to remember that not every girl is going to kick ass. Some people aren’t like that. I don’t expect every female character I read to be able to kick ass.

    Also, to second a thought already in the comments, when guys fight, girls die.

  15. I tend to agree with Nicole & meggygurl here…it maybe a comic trope, but also, it happens. However, I have to admit I was bummed at the lack of Penny kicking ass. I was SO sure it would happen! ;_;
    BUT, knowing how Joss likes to crush relationships in his stories, I should’ve seen it coming too.

    Antigone–Sequel!

  16. Oh, yes, Dr. Horrible IS The Nice Guy, however, unlike most nice guys he isn’t nice just to be able to sleep with someone (and think that’s enough reason) and he also doesn’t blame Penny nor women in general for his single life.

  17. I have to agree with you Holly, it seems to me he purposefully used comic book cliches, to ignore that around Penny’s death seems silly to me, since that’s probably the ultimate comic book cliche. Nevertheless I was sort of surprised by it as well. It seemed incongruent with the rest of the sort of light-hearted three act play.

  18. Rebecca — I think you’re totally right that Dr. Horrible doesn’t even attempt to undermine or send-up the use of female characters dying as a plot device. It simply uses and exposes that trope, which makes me want to ask… is there a point in doing so? I do think that maybe it’s a little too charitable or “we’ll give you a pass since you’re a good guy” to say, well this kind of thing does happen and women do die when men fight, and it’s a Bad Thing. That point’s been made a billion times since drama began; it’s not news or new meaning to anyone.

    But the tragedy of a (stupid) hero killing the one he loves when he (stupidly) thought he was fighting to win her hand is also a little different than the classic Green Lantern “I found my girlfriend in a refrigerator” Macguffin. I mean, in the most prototypical WiR, the girlfriend barely exists as anything BUT a corpse, a Horrible Thing That Demands Revenge, an insult to a man’s home and property, a manufactured reason to fight. (See also Dinah, Genesis 34) I think there’s a little more going on with the characters in Dr. Horrible… but maybe not enough. The action and motivation of the main character ends, instead of beginning, with the death of his loved one; when Penny’s gone, he becomes a hollow shell of a villain. On the other hand, I think Jeffrey Boser has a point; even though she has more personality than a generic girlfriend who winds up in a fridge, she’s also not too much more than a sweet, light, positive idea to be fought over.

  19. Ah ha, I think part of our difference here is in the reading of the story!

    I still think this plays very much into WiR, because I’m reading it as an origin story for Dr. Horrible. Instead of having his girlfriend killed and becoming a hero (or furthering his heroic career) to avenge her, he furthers his villainy because he was denied her (both when she dated Hammer and again when she died). It goes negative instead of positive, but the catalyst is still a character who (very much agreeing with you and Jeffrey Boser) is more of a concept than anything else getting offed. Her death isn’t about her, it’s about him.

  20. Ahhh, that does make sense. I admit I wasn’t looking too far outside the frame, the glum ending where he’s sitting alone looking like a schlub. But it does make sense as an origin story, even if the rest of his supervillainy never exists outside fanfic. There’s still a difference with it going negative instead of positive though, right? When Green Lantern, or Dinah’s brothers, run off and get all violent and heroic in the name of their defiled women, we’re expected to cheer them on and basically forget about the women.

    In Dr. Horrible’s case, however, it’s a supervillain origin story. Are we expected to be sympathetic? I don’t think so. He clearly fucked up in multiple ways that have been pointed out, and an innocent woman died who he never even had the guts to confess his feelings for. He takes out the damage in his soul by being begoggled and evil by day, and sitting alone like a schlub at night. It’s a morality play, but not of the usual WiR revenge sort; it’s more like “you got what you wanted, along with the consequences, and you deserve it, asshole.” At least, that’s my take, but of course I identified more with Penny despite her lack of agency. I’d be surprised if Joss Whedon didn’t expect a lot of people to identify with her, though.

    I feel this is an appropriate juncture to mention that I own the same model of goggles as Dr. Horrible, albeit painted differently and with some additional optical modifications:

  21. It would have been great if Penny quietly went off and started a relationship with some other guy (or girl, hey maybe she’s bisexual or gay and the Dueling Cocks naturally never bothered to find out anything about her actual sexuality, personality, identity, etc). So then Asshole Patriarchy Hero and Resentful “Oppressed” White Guy could turn around after beating the snot out of one another…

    …and wonder where their sextoy prize went. Shucks, almost like she’s an actual PERSON rather than a status object, huh?

    Anyway, I’ve never much been into Whendonverse (for no discernable reason, really. Same as with Harry Potter, it just leaves me sort of uninterested.) But given that Whedon is clearly not in the habit of refusing to think about gender inequality and so on…. it’s weird to me that he didn’t think of ending it that way. Even if it’s all about Dr. Horrible fucking up and realizing that his Nice Guy act is counterproductive, a finale like the would drive the point home better, I think.

  22. I think Joss was making a couple of points. The first is that had Dr. Horrible actually spoke to Penny and treated her like the person she was rather than as a prize to be won or stolen, everybody would have been better off. This is most clearly demonstrated during the courier van heist. When faced with the opportunity to get to speak with the object of his affection (word choice intentional), he chose instead to steal MacGuffin chemical from the courier van so that he could steal her (win her, whatever) later. This clearly was not a love ballad for Mr. Nice Guy.

    Second point is that it’s not The Hammers of the world making it better, it is the quiet forgettable people handing out fliers, setting up petitions, and helping out in soup kitchens. Penny’s banality is exactly what made her the hero. Let’s not forget that she was also the only person we could really be rooting for. Neither Dr. Horrible now The Hammer were likable characters.

  23. I think, if you ignore Penny’s dying words, the ending makes both guys out to be jackasses. Captain Hammer, obviously, is a self-centered prig, and Horrible loses Penny—first to Hammer, then to death—because he WON’T FRIGGEN TALK TO HER. She flirts with him when he signs her petition and she misses him when he doesn’t show up to the laundromat in Act III, so it seems like she’s really coming to like Billy. If he’d just talked to her sooner, he wouldn’t have had to go through with the botched plan that got her to hook up with Hammer, and if he hadn’t been so busy plotting his evil deadly fatal plots of evil, he might’ve noticed she was developing feelings for him and maybe they would’ve wound up together. I think it’s a lesson to Nice Guys to try acting like grownups and seeing if that gets them further than pining from afar.

    Also, I read Penny’s sweetness-and-light characterization as how the two guys see her, rather than her true character. There are a couple moments where she seems to a little cynical or appears uncomfortable with the idealized version of her the men are responding to. Furthermore, she doesn’t need Horrible to tell her that Hammer is a jerk, she’s realizing that on her own, which is a definite refutation of the Nice Guy idea that whoever the object of his affect is dating is an asshole and she needs him to tell her.

    However, this only works if you ignore the fact that as she’s dying she says, “It’s OK. Captain Hammer will save me.” That makes her a senselessly optimistic twit and contradicts the serious second thoughts she appeared to be having about her relationship with Hammer. Makes me go stabbity.

  24. I can forgive Penny’s dying words – people say some pretty weird things when their brains are running out of oxygen.

  25. After seeing the three acts…..it seems like a mishmash between Little Shop of Horrors, Spaceballs, and Wile E. Coyote vs Roadrunner cartoons.

    In many ways, Dr. Horrible reminded me of a taller, less insecure, less costumed, and arguably a more competent version of Dark Helmet….and of course, the Coyote.

    As for Captain Hummer…he reminds me most of Steve Martin’s sadistic dentist character. There were a few places where he seemed on the edge of belting out the “I want to be a dentist” song.

    It seems Penny is little more than a background character placed to further the seeming focus of the plot….Dr. Horrible’s raison d’etre and his issues…..and Captain Hammer’s raison d’etre and his issues. Though Penny’s actions were the only ones that were well-intentioned and attempted to actually help better others….the stereotypical “goody2shoes” female out to save the world plays into a familiar hackneyed stock character that has been a part of American and to varying extents…international pop culture.

    Also, my undergrad college wants its posterchild back in case it wants to relaunch its old long-running “save the world” theme to target potential applicants who are idealistic and progressively-minded. 😉

  26. The show was definitely in the short-short format (while a short story has the full arc of exposition, complicating incident, rising action, technical climax, falling action, dramatic climax, and denouement, the short-short sticks mostly to one of those), so the lack of resolution wasn’t at all surprising. It starts with rising action (catching up on exposition as we go along… certainly something Joss has practice doing), and ends with a technical climax in some presumably larger story.

    I actually thought the third act was by far the best of the three: The pacing was excellent, the lyrics great, the story heart-wrenching. Something big had to happen to fundamentally change the conflict between Horrible and Hammer. Whedon tries to achieve that with maximum emotional impact.

    I’m not sure where the suggestions that Penny “doesn’t have agency” come from. She is portrayed as exaggerated and one dimensional, but the same applies to the other main characters. All of the characters have very clear goals which they all work very hard to pursue. It would be one thing if Penny dropped her world-changing objectives in favor of her relationship goals, but she clearly doesn’t. Penny struck me as no more one-dimensional than the other two main characters.

  27. @Colleen: Penny’s last words are even more out of touch than that. She says, “It’s OK, Captain Hammer will save us.” She seems to fail to notice that Billy, appearing by her side, is the Dr. Horrible who was shooting up the place moments earlier.

    I agree with Spider, though: It’s reasonable to expect someone on the verge of death to not be thinking clearly.

  28. Would folks be trying to give him a pass if wasn’t Joss “I Write Strong Female Characters” Whedon?

    I describe it over in mine as “two boys fought over a toy until she broke.”

    The narrative is written in such a way that we-as-viewers are supposed to sympathize with a stalker – he knows when she’s at the laundrette and can recite off when she wasn’t, he has a photo of her that he obviously took from behind a tree, he follows her & Captain Ham(mer) on their dates. This is really common in the media – the stalker-ish guy who follows the girl around, has no idea anything about her except that she’s his wankfodder, and then is ‘rewarded’ with the hot chick at the end. (Of course, not so much in this case because the hot chick is DEAD.)

    We don’t tell these sorts of stories about women. There is no female equivilent of the stalker-potential lover who isn’t played for creepy, pathetic, or laughs, whereas it’s practically a staple for men.

  29. Except that I really don’t think we’re supposed to sympathize with Dr. Horrible in this story — he IS being played creepy, pathetic, and for laughs. The stalkery behavior? It’s there to show that he’s being creepy and can’t actually you know, be a normally adjusted human being who can actually talk to her. When he does manage to talk with her, it’s because she took the initiative.

  30. The fact is, nearly anything can be read as sexist if you try hard enough.

    It’s very short. There’s barely room for three characters. Penny is the only character who is really, truly good. Captain Hammer likes beating people up, and Dr. Horrible is creepy and pathetic and would probably act very similar to Captain Hammer if he could. They both claim to be helping the world, but neither actually do. Penny does, but her work — caring for people, and giving them practical help — is minimized because it doesn’t involve violence. Neither of the boys sees her as anything more than an object. Neither of them care about the homeless. Penny dies because a couple of macho men had to have a cock fight.

    Joss is famous for ass-kicking women. I think that every once and a while he’s allowed to have male characters.

  31. The only redeeming thing about faith-based politics is that it asks us to constantly look for some kind of common ground with the mean-spirited assholes that ushered in our national nightmare. I really don’t see writing these morons off as the answer — we have to deal with them. We don’t have to care about them, but we do need to mediate some kind of agreement which allows for our mutual survival. I agree with your description of the problem – but if these people are beyond negotiating in their own self interest while we try to pursue ours, then (we white males who need, love and are loved by women) are fucked….

  32. Why don’t you think we’re supposed to sympathise with him? And does it matter if we are supposed to or not when people did? I read a lot of folks talking about him as sympathetic and He Truly Love Her For Her Mind not like Captain Ham(mer).

    (Actually, when I think about it, the folks who so far have said that to me are Nice Guys(tm).)

    I mean, I’m a big fan of The Author Is Dead, thus what Joss intended isn’t really as relevant as what Joss got across. And what I see is a character that existed entirely so she could die and we could get Character Development for the boys who broke their wee toy. Which is really irritating. And I think part of what leaves me irritated is I certainly wasn’t alone in thinking “This is Joss Whedon, Penny is totally going to end up doing something awesome – be it telling both guys to get bent, or turning out to be The Thoroughbred of Sin in disguise, or having this story be HER origin story instead of Dr Horrible’s.” (Which, I know, goes against the Author is Dead – I was expecting better and when I didn’t get it I was disappointed.)

    Joss is totally allowed to tell stories about men, and has told quite a few. But he doesn’t get a pass from me for using a woman’s body to do that. She was something the boys fought over. That was her role. She could have been a Magical Weapon or a Statue or something else that they fought over.

    *sigh*

    See, and I liked Acts I & II. (Act III not so much, not only for the death but the cringe-worthy speech of Captain Hammer’s. I have embarassment squick.) I loved the singing and the bulk of the songs, the duet between Dr Horrible & Penny is THE BEST THING EVAR OMG, and I do have a soft-spot for stories about cynics & idealists. But I really felt so disappointed that Penny was a toy. I know it’s 30-ish minutes and it’s Dr Horrible’s Story, but frankly, the story wouldn’t be drastically changed if you took Penny out of it and replace her with some other object that the boys are fighting over, and that’s not a Strong Female Character (by which I don’t mean physically strong), that’s a stand-in.

  33. Part of the reason I agree that Dr. Horrible is very much a Nice Guy™ is that every time he interacts with Penny as a person, he seems to be way more prone to being irritated by her than when she’s the fantasy perfect girl for whom he pines. It was telling to me that she was basically a distraction during the heist scene. Even more than that, when she dies, Dr. Horrible doesn’t commit to evil out of grief, rather it’s her death that ends up being the murder Bad Horse demanded to let him into the Evil League of Evil. And that song he sings after she dies shows ambivalence, but mostly it’s about Dr. Horrible accepting his triumph.

    Warren Ellis has said that you don’t know what a story’s about until you know how it ends. Dr. Horrible doesn’t renounce his ways when Penny dies, he uses her death to get what he’s been working for the whole time. Of course, it happened because he was lucky enough to have the weapon he built malfunction, and injure the superhero who was about to shoot him in the face while he was on the ground. But where before, the people loved Captain Hammer, and sang along with his condescending, insulting songs, because he was the winner, now they wear Dr. Horrible’s t-shirt. I don’t think Whedon’s saying very kind things about anyone in this case. There’s an exchange in Firefly where Mal tells Jayne that he thinks no one ever got a statue erected in his honor who wasn’t one kind of sonofabitch or another, and that seems to be what’s going on here: no one’s off the hook, not the sons of bitches who are fighting each other, and not the people erecting the statues. Penny’s portrayed as a genuinely decent human being, but being a genuinely decent human being doesn’t keep you from getting some shrapnel in the gut when the powerful want to fight for alpha status. And hell, even she’s not immune to being a statue-erector, since her dying words are about how Captain Hammer will save us. She’s no more enlightened than anyone else in the story.

    Maybe I’m projecting, but Dr. Horrible makes me think of Vonnegut. It’s simultaneously very pessimistic about people’s tendency to follow the alpha-chimp, and optimistic about ordinary people doing the work to achieve what good they can. I think it shows a Vonnegutian (if that’s a word) love for your fellow, extremely-flawed humans to take your most sympathetic character, and make her just as prone to hero-worship as any other person in the story.

    Anyway, maybe Penny doesn’t kick ass because the people who do kick ass in this story tend to get other people dead in the process.

  34. Very belatedly, a plug for a post that a friend of mine wrote over on LJ which I think takes a great tack on this: http://karjack.livejournal.com/656327.html?

    Excerpt:

    Then there is Penny. The object to be won. At the risk of looking like a Bad Feminist (like Bad Horse, I also have a posse of trained cowboys to sing my correspondences) I’m going to go ahead and say that I kind of liked watching Joss do a spin on the helpless female that didn’t involve an eleventh-hour turnaround wherein she grabs a flamethrower and kills every muthafugga in the room. And here’s why: that’s pure wish fulfillment, and it’s not what people do.

    She is sweet, she is kind, but unlike the damsel trope, she’s not looking for someone to sweep her off her feet. She wants to help the homeless. She’s not looking for Mr. Right. She just wants you to sign her petition. She’s not lost in the world, bereft for the lack of a man. In fact, she is doing just fine all on her own until these two megalomaniacal douchebags step in and screw it all up for her.

  35. I like some of Whedon’s work, but never saw it as feminist — more feminist-wannabe. Karrin Jackson (via Spider’s comment) says it best:

    “However, I do think that some of his female characters are kind of one-dimensional, even if it’s an awesome dimension… Basically, fetishizing strong women is still objectifying them. They are still objects of desire rather than real people.”

    Also, I think Whedon wrote some of himself into Dr Horrible, as much as Whedon fans might not want to consider that. Act 3 runs off the rails largely because it gets obsessed pointing out what a jerk Captain Hammer is, and how blind the “sheeple” (and adoring women!) are. This seems to be Whedon’s obsession as much as Dr Horrible’s.

  36. Okay, I am going to leave aside some of the blatant IBTP issues I have,(nice guy, mean guy gets girl and sex, nice girl dies a la “woman in refrigerator) because other more studied feminists can handle those issues.

    Here is what I see. I am a newbie feminist, and I am sure there are tons of things in my analysis that can be picked apart, and I still see this as a feminist film. Maybe I am too steeped in the patriarchy still, but after reading the comments above, I think that some of the subtleties of the feminist qualities of this film were missed.

    Dr. Hammer. Mr. Harris’ portrayal of a “Nice Guy” was fantastic. First of all correct me if I am wrong here, but what I saw in the First Act was a dead on version of everything that is wrong with a Nice Guy in fact, whether it’s my heightened IBTP sense(thank you Twisty Faster), right away I went, “Oh, I get it Joss, you are showing us right off the bat how freaking creepy these Nice Guys are, and how Nice Guys always have this underlying evil to them, by making Dr. Horrible a Nice Guy and yet evil at the same time, just like the Nice Guy who after meeting me for coffee and I mention I need bookcases shows up with bookcases on my doorstep two days later. The stalking, the wanting to destroy society to make it better, and the desire to rule the world or at least his own kingdom(what nice guy doesn’t want to rule the world via getting the girl and the sex that comes with it)To me, The Nice Guy/Dr. Horrible persona showed what a split personality these Nice Guys have, and how women are so often blind to this split personality. In ACT 3, Dr. Horrible’s evil side wins out, as most of the time it does with Nice Guys and I was left thinking, You fracking idiot, if you had just talked to her in the first place and treated the Penny like a human being first, you might have found that not only could you get the girl, you could have worked for the societal change with her for the change you wanted, and you might have felt more fulfilled in getting everything you wanted in an ethical, moral way instead of having to use overkill with a death ray gun.

    Penny. What’s to say? A woman who quietly works to make changes for the better is marginalized and sacrificed on the altar of male ego(Captain Hammer) and male sexual desire coupled with male socialized ambition(Dr. Horrible). Not only that, but Penny has been socialized to worship the Male Hero, and to keep her socialized blinders on to Captain Hammer’s obvious flaws. After all, isn’t Captain Hammer supposed to be everything women want? Handsome, the knight in shining armor rescuing the Princess in the tower, supposedly good with a good ethical system? One other point about Penny, even though she has been conditioned by society to fall in line with patriarchal thinking, she is clearly feeling something is not quite right with the system she bought into, and as it frequently happens with women, either we experience a “soul death” or in this case an actual death before we figure out that the way our society is set up is horribly, terribly wrong for everyone.

    I have more on Captain Hammer, but I have to get going now. Let me just say I see what you all are saying about this piece and I don’t necessarily disagree with everyone, because those are the first things that leaped out at me too.

  37. Whedon has a habit of not allowing truly good people to exist within his worlds too much and most of the deaths that occur are a result of a serious long-standing flaw for another main character (Best example: Fred in Angel, but Tara is a victim of both Willow and Buffy if you look at long standing character arcs and personality flaws). I am not surprised that Penny died (although I also thought she mght turn out o be Bad Horse). Everyone focuses on Whedon’s strong kick ass women but he has many other strong women who occasionally suffer because of others. Whedon likes to go for the jugular and show that bad things happen to good people and a lesson is not always learned from tragedy (with dr. horrible joining the EVil League)

    I am a Whedonista but I do feel that he is one of the most feminist tv writers we have out there but he also does acknowledge the real world which is, in the world the people who are getting their voices and opinions heard on issues are not always the ones that have the best interest in what they are defending at heart.

  38. burnedout, thank you for that analysis. You’ve help me see the story from a different perspective, and it all fits together much better now.

    When I first watched Act I, I found Dr. Horrible to be a somewhat sympathetic character. After all, he’s shy and geeky, and he clearly has a decent side. Basically, Dr. Horrible is the stereotypical male lead whom you would expect to see in a romantic comedy. And Whedon wants us to sympathize with Dr. Horrible.

    But as you point out, Dr. Horrible is also a creepy, self-obsessed stalker. This was clear to you from the very beginning. But in my case, I was blinded by the conventions of romantic comedies—isn’t every male lead a creepy, self-obsessed stalker? It’s annoying, but all too easy to brush off as a narrative convention.

    To me, there are two “obvious” ways the plot could have developed in Act III:

    1) Dr. Horrible’s creepy stalker tendencies could have been interpreted as True Love™ (the standard romantic comedy plot).

    2) In the hands of a slightly more sophisticated story-teller, Dr. Horrible might have learned to treat Penny like a real person, and thereby overcome his tragic flaw.

    But Joss Whedon went for a third option:

    3) Dr. Horrible’s tragic flaw ultimately consumes him and ruins him. He gets everything that he thought he wanted, and he’s damned to a life of misery, his victory turning to ashes.

    I think that Dr. Horrible’s Sing-a-Long Blog deliberately keeps pointing at resolution (2), daring the viewer to overlook all the clues that you saw clearly pointing to resolution (3). But you’re right—Dr. Horrible’s tragic flaws should be apparent from the very first scene.

    So why did I fall for Whedon’s trick? Because I think I know how a romantic comedy is supposed to play out. But there’s no reason why the same character flaws can’t be an equally valid setup for a Greek tragedy.

    It’s a good “bait and switch”, as Moist actually telegraphs in Act I. And by making me fall for it, Whedon has shown me that I ought to pay more attention to narrative conventions.

    But my new view of the story still sells Penny short. If Dr. Horrible’s character arc is a standard tragic fall, and Captain Hammer is just a comic jerk who gets his comeuppance, what about Penny? What’s her story arc? Should we take her last words seriously, and if so, what does that mean?

  39. Penny’s banality is exactly what made her the hero.

    !!!Yes yes yes!!!

    I interpreted this story to be a critique of the very idea of “heroes” and “villains,” and all its misogynist/imperialist implications. Humanizing a villain and showing the assholery of a hero shows that the good/evil distinction is pretty invented. And Penny represents both what a useful hero really looks like, and the real-world suffering the two egomaniac macho men are missing/causing in their self-obsession.

    It’s Joss Whedon’s *favorite* thing to have an evil or unsympathetic character tell the “truth” about what’s going on in a story, and I think Captain Hammer’s song about everyone being a hero in their own way was really what it came down to.

    Everyone is a hero, from their own perspective. Everyone has epic fights to fight and big struggles in their own lives. That means there’s all kinds of heroes, but if you ask me, the *best* heroes are the ones who don’t think of themselves as anything special and who spend their lives doing something good for other people. People like Dr. Horrible (aka Al Qaeda) and Captain Hammer (aka George Bush) are not heroes at all. They’re just the ones who screw everything up for the rest of the world, most notably women, who are likely to be doing stuff that actually benefits people and not looking to be worshiped for the sake of their egos.

    I am also in total disagreement with the idea that in order for someone to be “strong,” they have to be violent. That’s a patriarchal frame and I reject it. Penny is strong. She’s just not violent.

  40. THANK YOU, Ashley: I’ve been reading over comments here and elsewhere and grinding my teeth over the idea that only those women who “kick ass” can be considered strong.

  41. Just throwing this out there — I don’t think people necessarily mean physically strong when they refer to “strong characters,” I think they often mean dynamic. Physicality is a kind of strength, but so is intelligence, for example. I know that when I refer to Joss’s strong female characters, I don’t just mean Buffy because she beats people up; I mean all of the characters who seem real, who have actual varied strengths and weaknesses, and clear personalities. That’s very much what I feel Penny was missing — I wanted a “stronger” character meaning I wanted someone with a more dynamic personality, such as Horrible and Hammer (albeit to to a lesser extent) had, not that I wanted her to punch someone in the face.

  42. I think one of the smartest things about Dr. Horrible was that is was staggered. From the beginning Dr. Horrible is a sympathetic guy: he’s nerdy, he seems nice enough, his friends are outcasts, he’s shy, he might be kind of a villain but he’s so bad at it no one ever gets hurt, even his reasons for being a villain are coming from what seems to be basically a good place. As time goes on, however, you start to see the layers of the Nice Guy pulled back. Sure, he likes Penny, but he doesn’t know anything about her. His love is pure fantasy. The more he gets to know her, the less he likes her, especially when she voices an opinion. To Dr. Horrible, Penny isn’t a person, she’s an idealized object. I don’t think its an accident that as Dr. Horrible learns more about her his fantasies about how he’ll “win her over” get more and more outlandish. It all gets a gloss because you’re seeing things from Dr. Horrible’s point of view, but even then shallowness and narcissism begin to peek through.

    Captain Hammer is the same kind of character. He doesn’t see Penny as a person either, just as another conquest. Even when he talks about her being a girl he could go out with a second time its only because he believes he’ll get some kind of “weird” sex act. At the end he calls her his “long term girlfriend” after they’ve been dating for maybe a week, and he believes it. In the end Captain Hammer believes himself to be a Nice Guy too, we just see more of his flaws from the beginning because we’re seeing him through the eyes of a competing Nice Guy.

    Captain Hammer and Dr. Horrible are, ultimately, the same character. They’re both using Penny as a means of fulfilling their own fantasies, with absolutely no regard to who she is as a person. Both pretend to be interested in what she likes but show distaste when she voices an opinion. Both are manipulative, shallow, and incredibly narcissistic. For them Penny is the girlfriend who exists only to meet their needs, complete their characters, and ultimately end up in their refrigerator.

    Penny is a real character with agency, we just don’t see it much because the entire story is told from the point of view of the Nice Guys. When Billy is talking about how hard it is for him, she points out that she had a hard time, that others have it worse. She explains how she came to do what she does and believe what she believes, but Billy doesn’t care because it doesn’t fit his narrative. The same thing happens when Captain Hammer has dinner with her at the shelter and dedicates the new building. He shows a complete disinterest in anything about her that doesn’t directly relate to him. But Penny is a person who does have opinions. She is sickened by Captain Hammer’s speech and leaves the stage, she challenges Billy when he mentions wanting to be like Bad Horse.

    The end of the story is two deeply narcissistic characters fighting for their own fame and prestige. As these two self-involved giants duke it out everyone else in the room is reduced to an innocent to be saved, a victim to be terrorized, or a witness to advance their legends. Penny’s death is tragic because shes the only person who was doing something for society rather than for themselves, and she is killed as a result of two egos battling. What makes her death so much worse is that no one cares outside of how it effects the egos involved. The news can’t remember her name, Captain Hammer is more concerned with being hurt than with her death, and Dr. Horrible gets what he wants by finding something to replace the fantasies about Penny. The Evil League of Evil strokes his ego and gives him a sense of value in the same way that claiming Penny as a trophy would have. Everyone gets what they need to advance their characters, but the real people end up dead and forgotten. The homeless have lost their shelter and Penny has lost her life.

  43. Some unconnected thoughts:

    1. Billy is naturally going to be sympathetic to the audience (well, to me, at least) because he is played by NPH, who is fairly beloved- either because was Doogie, Barney, or because of his theatre characters. Some actors are more loved for various reasons.

    2. Penny is boring. And while I can understand the idea that there are three ways of approaching change- Billy doesn’t know how, CH doesn’t care, and Penny actually does the dirty work- but she didn’t actually change anything. CH got the building, not a petition. She may have brought about change by being the person who talks to the homeless without CH’s disgust at the whole thing, but in the end, the clueless jerk is the one that got those beds for those people.

    3. The fangirls (and fey, lispy fanboy) bothered me. What does it mean that they all switch over to love Dr. Horrible, when the media (and seemingly the public opinion) are still aligned to Captain Hammer? Do they just love whoever is in the media? Do they love him for (getting credit for) killing Penny? Its strange, either way.

    4. Sex. Captain Hammer is clearly a jerk about it, but Dr Horrible seemed to be a virgin (re: the French kiss comment). What does that mean? Can men in the Jossverse have a healthy attitude towards sex?

  44. I’m surprised no one here has mentioned Sweeney Todd. The plot seems to follow that more than any other single source. The nihilism, the “heros” being evil sexual predators, and the tragic death of the loved ones. Even some of the key musical moments follow the Sondheim lyrics and cadence “There’s a hole in the world like a great black pit…”

  45. bsci – interesting point. I thought that cadence sounded familiar and I was wondering where it was from. NPH has done some of Sondheim’s musicals but not sweeney todd that I can recall.
    JenLoves Ponies – there are men in the Jossverse with normal sex lives but he does tend to focus on those on either end of the spectrum.
    I dont think the fanboys/girls were part of Joss’s sense of humor and probably a jab at how celebrity obsessed and fickle our society can be.
    I don’t think Penny is boring I think she was overshadowed because she was being seen through Dr. Horrible’s eyes and by the second act it was no longer about her but about his problems with Captain Hammer, she just became another symptom. Also I think this shows the danger in taking away the power from those that truly care about change. Captain Hammer got the shelter put up but for the wrong reason and I don’t think that the ends justified the means in this case.

  46. The most recent movie version of Sweeney Todd came out last Fall. Considering Sweeney Todd is based on a pulp fiction novel that became a musical and later a movie directed by Tim Burton, I’d be shocked if Joss hadn’t seen it. If I remember correctly, the movie was also out during the writers’ strike, which was the origin of this project.

  47. The problem with Penny’s “agency” is that it doesn’t actually get anything done. The homeless shelter happens because of Captain Hammer, not because of her. She’s banal, boring, and dead, and I don’t think any of those things equal any type of power or agency. Coming at it from a perspective that has nothing to do with science fiction or the Whedonverse, I just see her depiction as buying into every single stereotype about women constructed by men. She’s sweet, she’s kind, she doesn’t affect anything, and then she has sex and dies. And yeah, that might be commentary on the way in which men have constructed women, but as someone says above, that commentary’s been done before and this doesn’t add anything new.

    I was incredibly disappointed with the ending. And maybe that was the point. But that doesn’t lessen my disappointment.

  48. Disclosure time: I’m not a Whedon fan yet – this is the first thing of his that I’ve seen. However, I quite liked it. Now that you’ve got my biases, here are my thoughts.

    Do we know that Penny actually had sex? There are only three references to it, and they all come from Captain Hammer:

    1. Act II, where Captain Hammer brags about his future plans.
    2. Act III, where Captain Hammer brags about getting to sleep with the same girl twice – but this could still be future talk. “I might just sleep with the same girl twice” doesn’t necessarily mean he slept with her once. It sounds like more of a generic conquest thing.
    3. Act III again, where Captain Hammer brags in his speech about having sex with Penny: “We totally had sex.” Penny seems quite shocked at this. This could be interpreted as “I can’t believe you just told everyone that” – or “I can’t believe you just told everyone that lie!”

    So we have references, but they’re all Captain Hammer’s bragging. We’ve seen Hammer do other exaggerated bragging (the “serious long term girlfriend” thing comes to mind, as does his taking credit for – well, everything) as well as be a jerk about other things, so it wouldn’t be out of character for him to lie outright.

    Maybe I’m just trying really hard to defend something I really liked, but I didn’t find Penny banal or boring at all. There’s only so much you can show through a Nice Guy’s eyes in 45 minutes.

  49. I thought Dr. Horrible was a fantastic overhaul of the annoying “Nice Guy” trope. Billy had a lot of potential to be a truly sweet guy, and his heart could have gone in the right place. That’s why he’s likable(Besides NPH, guh), but Whedon didn’t overlook his flaws.
    Penny’s death was the result of Billy’s crappy choices and mixed-up priorities. He tried to reconcile his two desires- Penny and villainhood- by working to impress Penny instead of actually getting to know her. He thought she would inevitably be blind to his “loveableness”/Hammer’s “assholishness” instead of her actually realistic approach to both men.
    Think about it: if Billy succeeded and killed Captain Hammer, he still would not have gotten the girl. Penny’s smart like that. She saw behind Captain Hammer’s facade until the oxygen leaked out of her brain; why would she have fallen desperately in love with a murderer whom she once trusted?
    So because of his lame scheming Dr. Horrible accidentally kills Penny when he could have just chosen to open his mouth and eyes. After this, Billy’s horribleness was assured. He had to become a villain: his choices lead him down that path and he couldn’t turn back. I love the tragedy in that.
    I also loved Penny’s earnest desire to change the world as opposed to The Men selfishly cockfighting. And the moral ambiguity of Captain Hammer being an asshole yet kind of doing the right thing. My respect for Joss is shooting up tenfold right about now, and it was already pretty damn high.

  50. Would folks be trying to give him a pass if wasn’t Joss “I Write Strong Female Characters” Whedon?

    I describe it over in mine as “two boys fought over a toy until she broke.”

    Word to Big Bird, Anna.

    The fact is, nearly anything can be read as sexist if you try hard enough.

    lynx_wings, the problem is that most popular culture–including books, movies, television, videos–is sexist. The problem isn’t that I see the everpresent sexism; the problem is that the sexism exists and permeates our society, and we don’t have many alternatives. Furthermore, Joss Whedon could have created strong male characters without necessarily creating a sexist story.

  51. Sarah: I don’t think that Penny is banal and boring, but she certainly is powerless, which I feel is kind of the point. She seems banal and boring because every time she might become fleshed out as a character one of these two narcissistic forces steps in and deliberately overshadows her so that they can maintain their fantasies. She tries to talk to Billy about the shelter, but he turns it into a monologue on how the world is rotting and should be cut off at the head. When she is nearly killed by the van (as a result of these two figures fighting) Billy’s reactions revolve around why he should have gotten the credit for saving her and how he unwittingly introduced the woman he believes is his to his nemesis. She tries to talk about why she enjoys doing laundry, but he turns the discussion to her involvement with Captain Hammer (which is really an attempt to find out how he can claim her). She sings a song about hope and the value of having attainable and human goals and he runs off. The same pattern follows in her interactions with Captain Hammer.

    Its worth noting that this project happened during the writer’s strike. Indeed, I think that on some level the project is about the writer’s strike. You have Dr. Horrible presenting himself as some kind of underdog hero while trying to fight his way into the establishment, at whatever cost. You have Captain Hammer as the smarmy, cartoonish foil who fights Horrible back with overwhelming power but does it out of sadism and a desire for personal gain. Both claim that they’re doing the right thing, and both get all of the attention from the viewer. At the same time you have Penny and the homeless she cares about, people who have real needs but who are largely forgotten, ignored, manipulated, and sacrificed while the big public players swing their dicks around. The story was being written and filmed as Union execs and Studio execs engaged in a pissing contest while actual small time writers couldn’t work and put food on their tables. In the end the status quo remains the same, the big players go off to their respective corners, and the people who the fight was ostensibly about are forgotten and left behind.

  52. I would suggest that there is one big difference between Dr. Horrible and the Nice Guy. And to show this, I might ask the question, “What distinguishes the genuine tragedy (the truly nice guy who is just painfully shy) from the Nice Guy?” The former do exist, and one of the reasons I am uncomfortable with much “Nice Guy” discussion is a tendency to conflate them.

    The distinction seems to be constituted by something like this: “resentment over rejection or gender privilege to morphs into a sense of entitlement.” A Nice Guy has it, the tragedy doesn’t.

    So the question becomes, “Does Dr. Horrible ever manifest a sense of entitlement with regards to Penny that seems to emanate from resentment, contempt, or privilege, or is he just a shy sad sack that can’t function well around women?”

    I could be mistaken, but the latter seems more accurate. Does Dr. Horrible ever express resentment AT PENNY for her decision to go out with Captain Hammer? As far as I can recall, I don’t think so.

  53. PTS- in the first act I would agree that Dr Horrible seems less Nice Guy TM as he does really shy guy (see for instance the lyrics “Wanna say ‘Love your hair’ here I go Mumbling” with actual mumbling) but in the second Act he seems to be really angry at her for not realising just how brilliant he is and for thinking Captain Hammer (Corporate Tool) saved her, and also for not seeing the ‘truth’ about CH. I can read this as ‘just’ being jealousy but, at the same time, I think there is a bit of Nice Guy TM entitlement there. And then, by Act Three, I think he thinks she’ll be his prize for killing Captain Hammer. He’s got the potential in act one to be a good guy but that potential gets shut down as the story progresses.

    The thing that seems telling to me is the song ‘A Man’s Gotta Do…’ because, what does a man have to do (to be a man)? Apparently it’s not connect emotionally with another person because Horrible rejects that in favour of playing with his gadget. No, what a man’s gotta do, it seems to be, is get power, be ambitious, be heroes (Horrible may want to be a villian but it’s because, in his mind, that’s the way to make things better, although I question his idea of better, and so I would think he considers himself to be a hero of a sort) and face off against one another. The whole thrust of the show is that these guys want recognition and want to be powerful (note Hammer’s stressing of knowing what’s going on behind closed doors with the Mayor and Horrible’s rejection of the idea of being a henchman as not being good enough for him). Problem is that, at the end, what both of them are lacking is the emotional connections to get them through. Captain Hammer ends up crying and wanting someone maternal but runs away from the person he’s supposed to have a connection with (Penny) and ends up disappearing from public view and crying to a disinterested looking therapist while Dr Horrible gets exactly what he thought he wanted only to realise that he’s empty and miserable. To me the story is about the two male characters valuing the ‘wrong’ thing, wanting glory when they need connection and not realising it until its too late. Unfortunately I get the feeling that neither of them learned anything either. Dr Horrible does join the Evil League of Evil and I very seriously doubt that Captain Hammer will stay out of the limelight for long. If anything I can see the two of them facing each other with even more fervour and desire to destroy each other. 🙁

    As for Penny. I didn’t like her. Sure she was the one actually trying to do something but, ultimately, she didn’t do anything. She got given the shelter she wanted by a guy who clearly expected that he’d get a shag out of it (and, depending on whether Hammer was lying or not, did). She showed signs that she realised that Hammer wasn’t great. She showed signs that she might have developed feelings for Billy (not Dr Horrible). But when she got uncomfortable with Hammer she literally slunk away, keeping near the walls, instead of sticking around to face him and tell him why that was inappropriate. And when she found out that Horrible was Billy she didn’t confront him, although he did have a death ray on him at the time so…, but stayed hidden away behind chairs. And while we saw a heap of people ducking she doesn’t seem to have done so at all (and why was she standing up with nothing in front of her anyway? Given the trajectory of the shards and given where she had last been seen she should have been safe behind that chair or hit in the head. Why was she standing? Was she planning on interveining and just got cut off before she could? This seems like a illogicality in the characters positioning and it bothers me). Even when she was giving out leaflets in the first act the only person she actually was shown approaching was Billy/Horrible. In her ‘Won’t you lend a helping hand’ song she’s standing in a fairly enclosed space (roof above her, walls behind her, pilar in front of her) and she’s just stretching out her hands to people but staying away from the actual stream of traffic. It seemed wallflowery. And it annoyed me although I realise that actually trying to get people to sign up for things on a street is bloody hard work.

    Saying that overall I did like it, the show, but I still, as with most things, have my reservations.

  54. All these things are true, and it may be disappointing to many of us that Penny did not rise up and kick ass, but in the end, this story is a tragedy. In Captain Hammer and Doctor Horrible, I see two guys trying to succeed in two totally different ways, both wrong, and they both fail. What I see in Penny is a girl trying to succeed, but naïvely falling (more or less) for those guys’ fake charms, and she also fails. Each of them has good points, but fatal flaws. They are three demonstrations of how *not* to be. Lessons are also taught by counter-examples.

    Not every story is about Superman. Have you ever watched The Sopranos?

  55. I could be mistaken, but the latter seems more accurate. Does Dr. Horrible ever express resentment AT PENNY for her decision to go out with Captain Hammer? As far as I can recall, I don’t think so.

    I think what makes Billy a Nice Guy is that he does have a sense of entitlement. Sure, he doesn’t expressly aim his resentment at Penny (that would endanger his fantasy and destroy her value as an idealized object for him) but look at his reaction to being rejected. He aims to kill the man she chose, he sees her choice as a matter of misunderstanding, he is willing to do things that he knows will hurt her because in the end she’ll choose him when he gives her a gift. The song where he stalks her while shes out on a date, the song where he decides to kill his rival so that he can make Penny his. This isn’t someone shy around girls, this is someone who believes that he has a right to own an object, one he doesn’t even bother to get to know for any reason other than manipulation.

    Also, Dr. Horrible isn’t crushed when Penny dies. Sure, he’s a little sad about losing the toy he’d looked so forward to, but now he has a shiny new Evil League of Evil to occupy his attention and give him a sense of worth. I don’t think its coincidence that, once Penny is dead and Dr. Horrible has gotten the prestige he desires, he changes his costume to match the color of her hair that so infatuated him. For Dr. Horrible Penny was an accessory, something he had a right to own but that could be easily replaced should it lose it’s shine.

  56. Re: The ‘nice guy’ discussion.

    Personally, I thought one of the more subtle indicators was during the first song of Act II. When he’s stalking them at the park, he sings something to the effect of “The dark is every where and Penny doesn’t seem to care that soon the dark in me is all that will remain”

    I think that strikes to the core of the issue of needing validation in others, or in putting the obligation on her to speak up, rather than take the initiative on his own part or actually treat her as a person.

    I was quite unsatisfied with the ending and where it left us, but since reading the comment in here I can see some of the artistic reasonings for them, even if I disagree with it.

  57. Thought people might be interested in this quote from the chat Joss did with the Washington Post

    Langley Air Force Base, Va.: I’ve been reading some criticism (insert audible gasp here!) of “Dr. Horrible” about the lack of a strong, empowered female lead. They claim that Penny is merely a prop for Dr Horrible and Captain Hammer to fight over.

    What are your thoughts on that?

    Joss Whedon: Hi! Here goes Typomania! If I don’t get to a question, forgive. There are many, and I’m dodging the tough ones.

    But, yeah, Penny is not the feminist icon of our age. And yes, she does exist in the narrative as part of Doc’s fate — but everyone in the story is there to move the story. Is she less real than Hammer? (Is ANYTHING?) We gave her a cause so she wouldn’t JUST be the Pretty Girl but the fact is, neither Doc nor Hammer gives her the attention she deserves — Doc’s crush comes before he has the slightest idea what she cares about. Which is not uncommon. It reminds me of “Sweeney Todd,” the Judge and Sweeney singing “Pretty Women” — a beautiful duet with no insight whatsoever. Just images.

    But we shoulda gave her more jokes.

  58. I don’t want to say too much yet because I’m still mulling over how to form a blog post about all of this. But I think that Ashley and William are definitely on to something: this is a story about terrorism, and it is a story about the writers’ strike. And it’s essential for Penny to be a woman with no agency because she represents all of those people without agency (not just the homeless, but ordinary people, and possibly the American people as a whole). Has anybody noticed anyone out there discussing these aspects of the story, that I could check out?

  59. The first time I watched the ending, I actually shouted out, “What? No!” Then I watched the whole thing again from the start, and by the time I hit the ending a second time, I was in love with the story. While a part of me certainly craves that happy ending, the fact is that I still think about and feel emotional over the way things turned out, and that means “Damn Good” in my books.

    Anyway, the way I see it, Dr. Horrible and Captain Hammer both have their flaws, so why can’t Penny? Really, it’s silly to demand that all Joss Whedon’s female characters be confident and strong. Some people kick asses, and some fight a quieter fight.

    Remember that Dr. Horrible is the protagonist, here. Penny’s character is developed just as well as Captain Hammer’s: For both we get hints of their depths, but this isn’t their story.

    What gets me most is the concern over Penny’s final words. Personally, I think that the way that she’s so out of it is far more accurate and real than in some other films, where the character with shrapnel in their chest manages to spew a completely coherent death speech.

    And for those who say that Dr. Horrible isn’t crushed by Penny’s death, watch that final second one more time.

  60. And for those who say that Dr. Horrible isn’t crushed by Penny’s death, watch that final second one more time.

    Sure, it hurts him, but its not the pain of a lost love, but of a lost fantasy. Dr. Horrible loses his chance to be a good guy when Penny dies, but thats because he has tied up all sorts salvation fantasies in her. I don’t think its a coincidence that when Captain Hammer scampers off crying he screams for “someone maternal.” I have no doubt that he’s crushed by the events of the day as well, I just don’t think it has much to do with the death of Penny. Hammer is crushed because her death (and his pain) are a blow to his ego, confirmation that he isn’t what he thinks he is, a loss of his sense of self. Dr. Horrible is crushed for the same reason. It isn’t about her, even if he thinks it is.

    In order to believe that Dr. Horrible is crushed by Penny’s death you have to believe that somehow he love her, not the idealized object he projected onto her. Dr. Horrible isn’t responding to the death of a human being he genuinely cares about. All of his pain over her death is ultimately narcissistic, its about him. When she dies he seems broken for a moment then goes on to sing a victory song, leaving her corpse for the paramedics. “I feel nothing” is his response to her death. At most her death means he loses the opportunity to have a counterbalance, it means that the worst in him is free to come out, it gives him a reason to hate the world even more. But it is never about her.

  61. Hi, long time feminist, first time poster. Hmm I feel like Joss wasn’t being sexist at all. He’s, as others have said, like the ultimate guy feminist, believes women are strong and should be treated as equals. Penny’s character could be seen as some what of a parody. In super hero comics the characters always have really old school names like Billy and Penny. And Penny in one sense could be a little bit of a parody of the helpless damsel love interest. Though on another level, and yeah I might be contradicting my self here, I thought Penny was really strong in her own way. Buffy the vampire slayer (Joss’s ultimate strong female) had super powers, thats one of the ways she was so tough. But Penny is just a normal girl, trying to change the world in her own small way. So even though she didn’t make it to the credits, I liked her character and thought she was good.

  62. I still think this plays very much into WiR, because I’m reading it as an origin story for Dr. Horrible.

    But it’s not an origin story; Penny’s death is the beginning of Dr. Horrible’s end. Yes, he’s famous and evil, but he’s depressed and gives up his evil doctor persona at the end – in the last scene, we see him out of costume because he’s given up.

    Dr. Horrible’s tragic flaw ultimately consumes him and ruins him. He gets everything that he thought he wanted, and he’s damned to a life of misery, his victory turning to ashes.

    I think this is the point. Penny’s death wasn’t used as a springboard for DH’s future revenge/victories/etc; he got the fame, but it didn’t give him happiness. At the end, he gives up. Generally, that isn’t part of the WiR storyline because the “hero” is given the motivation to keep going.

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