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Feministe Feedback – Talking to my Brother

From a reader:

I’m a college junior and chair of the feminist org at my college. I was raised by a feminist and a single mom, along with my 16 year old brother. My brother is a good kid, I think that a lot of our problems are standard brother/sister stuff, and I know a lot of his stock misogyny is to annoy me and my mother, because he’s in that rebellious phase and he’s under academic pressure. But some things are really starting to bother me. He routinely yells over me and my mother instead of letting us talk, refers to me and my mother as “woman” (my mother ignores him because she also thinks he’s doing it to be annoying, which is true, but I think ignoring it isn’t getting at the issue), and makes sexist statements all the time about what women are and are not capable of, things that I know he knows aren’t true. I want advice, from mothers of teenage boys, other sisters or brothers of teenage boys, and men who remember being teenage boys about talking to him about it. In the car the other day, I asked if he had a girlfriend, or if he was interested in any girls. And his answer was, “No, all the girls in my grade are sluts.” Okay. So I said, “Why are they sluts?” and he said basically because they date older guys who want to use them for sex. So I said, “Wouldn’t the boys be the jerks, then?” and he said “I guess,” but followed that up with “Every girl in my grade is dumb anyway.” I said, “Every one?” and he said “Yup.” except for one of his friends. I want to know how to talk to him about this, is there a stealth Feminism 101 for teenage boys? Advice?

Ideas?


50 thoughts on Feministe Feedback – Talking to my Brother

  1. My guess is that he is going to try a lot of things on the course toward becoming a man. I’m trying to think about what it might be like to try to become a man, when you’re a 16 year old male teen, when the man-model sucks so much. It’s gotta be really hard. I have empathy for both of you.

    Some of this is clearly provocative, so the age-old advice of rolling your eyes and letting it go is probably in order half the time (or so), basically choosing your battles. I’m thinking that I would take on the yelling over you, but try to take the slut conversation with a grain of salt. I don’t think he’s in danger of being a jerk for life or something with a mother and sister like you, so letting a lot of stuff go doesn’t sound that risky right now. As for the ongoing storm of women-can’t-do-this-or-that, there is a ton of evidence against any claims he might make. A gentle comment or question before dropping it might work wonders, i.e. deflating the situation while turning it into a teachable mini-moment rather than opening up a huge fight about feminism. Replying “Well, I saw a woman run the Ironman on t.v. the other day, so it’s silly to suggest that women are weak” might work. Ditto for “Why do you think that? Oh. Hmm. I have a different take.”

    It also sounds, during the slut episode, like he might not want to talk and may not be using his words, so to speak, to communicate that. My male cousins do this stuff when they don’t want to talk rather than saying so. Stock teen behavior, I think.

    Um, not to be a jerk — it sounds like he’s being a twit — but, maybe think about not asking him specifically if he’s into the girls in his class. He might need to be asked if he’s interested in anyone. Do you know for certain that your brother is only interested in women?

    Lastly, I also have a lot of male friends who really struggled with the quickly emerging sexuality of their classmates, mainly the girls, when they weren’t really in that stage yet and didn’t know what to do or say. I think well-meaning, feminist-raised 16 year old young men sometimes act like asses when they are confused and trying to figure out how they feel and what they want to do. This especially applies to the time when some high school age women start becoming interested in older guys and/or sex and the gals’ figuring-it-out stage male peers feel left behind. Man, being a teen is rough and loving a teen is rough.

    P.S. If anyone ever referred to me as “woman” or addressed me as such, I’d want to claw the wall. That is the toughest one of all for me, weirdly. So “caveman.” So obnoxious!

  2. I think if you know he doesn’t believe the crap he’s saying, and you acknowledge that he just does it to be annoying, then there’s really not much left to be done (by you, anyway). At some point he will be comfortable and mature enough to drop the he-man act, and until then you should just ignore him, IMHO.

    I think the single most effective thing that could change his attitude is the intervention of a male role model. As Christine points out, he’s trying to negotiate how to “become a man,” and since at least on the surface our society defines so much of “being a man” in terms of “not being a woman,” there is really no amount of disapproval that the women in his life can show that will influence him in any way other than to increase his resistance.

    A guy that he looks up to (possibly older, possibly just admired) could probably make a big impact just by reacting to those kinds of comments with a “wow, that’s a weird thing to say” or some other easy dismissal. Especially if it’s someone who he’s trying to impress with his casual sexism, it could cause a complete reevaluation of what manhood means.

    But yeah, other than that, he’ll grow out of it.

  3. My brother is a good kid, I think that a lot of our problems are standard brother/sister stuff, and I know a lot of his stock misogyny is to annoy me and my mother, because he’s in that rebellious phase and he’s under academic pressure.

    Yep, stresses such as those from academic pressures can play a role…..though a larger part is the struggle all adolescents go through in an attempt to carve out an identity separate and independent from parents and older siblings.

    This is especially the case if the parent(s), older sibling(s), and in some cases…older cousins have had a great deal of accomplishments and talents…whether academic or otherwise. Even among classmates who were younger/youngest children in households where comparison and discussion of great accomplishments and talents of parents and older siblings/cousins are not much of an issue, our society tends to socialize many of us into feeling inadequate in comparison with our parent(s) and older sibling(s) unless we find a way to somehow “top” them somehow.

    It is also too easy for many younger siblings IME to develop the fear that they will always be living in the shadow of their more accomplished parents and older siblings. It is a feeling I can relate to as I have had many experiences being unfavorably compared with older cousins in my extended family…..even those whom I later found had f&6ked up big time in their academic and professional careers.

    Moreover, his misogyny may not only be a sign that he’s rebellious and trying to get a rise out of getting you and your mother mad for his amusement….but also a means to compensate for not measuring up to the prevailing notion of masculinity among his male peers.

    As for suggestions, it would depend on how good the lines of communications are between you, your mother, and him. You may all need to sit down as a family and have a frank talk not only to tell him how you both feel about his misogynistic behavior and guide him towards a better understanding, but also to open the lines of communications to find out whether there are underlying pressures and/or problems are causing him to behave this way…and if so, how to address them.

    One cautionary note: Unless it can’t be avoided, be very wary of setting or using an authoritarian tone in any discussions with him or you may end up driving him into further rebelliousness due to his possible perceived need to show he is a separate individual with a personality independent of you and your older parents. I speak from experience.

  4. I would do my best to be patient and non-confrontational while trying to engage him in discussions about what he thinks. Seems to me he’s really struggling to fit into the world, and the sort of behavior you’re seeing has to do with low self-esteem and general confusion. Quite normal for a teenager but not to be dismissed. He needs love and attention, and some feedback along the lines of “When you call me ‘woman’ I feel like ….,” “when you refer to girls as sluts, it hurts me because ….”

  5. Personally, I’d tell him to move out of the house, while calmly and rationally explaining that misogynist attitudes won’t be tolerated any more than other infractions like breaking curfew or getting failing grades in school.

    Learning to realize that when you’re being supported by someone, you need to adjust your attitudes and behavior to suit the person giving the support would be a character-building experience for him, and it would certainly be no worse than the way that young women and girls are socialized to please a future husband. Let’s see how the shoe fits when it’s on the other foot.

  6. I have found that if you just say, “Wow, I am really disappointed in you” in a very serious and somber voice and look away it tends to have an impact. Other than that the kid just sounds like an ass. If I were his mom I would smack him in the face for calling me ‘woman’ (yeah the woman who effing gave birth to you) and do something along the lines of what the person above me said. As a sibling though, the ‘disapproval’ tends to work better. Good luck.

  7. I’m with Mezosub and Chel.
    Your mom needs to lay down the law with your bro; she can’t leave it up to you to “mold” him into a decent, respectful man. I am DEFINITELY not blaming your bro’s behavior on your mom, but I’ve observed that far too many mothers allow their precious sons to get away with ridiculous, disturbing shit (that they would never let their daughters get away with), and then they turn into completely assholish adults.
    Maybe you can let your mom know about your concerns, and come up with a way to tackle it together. No sixteen year old BOY should be speaking to older women that way. Blech.

  8. The whole Sluts conversation you had translates, to me, directly into “None of the girls in my class are dating me therefore I don’t like them and they are stupid.” He may have been rejected and is nursing hurt feelings, or like an earlier comment mentioned, be feeling intimidated by them. I wouldn’t worry too much about that in particular.

    If anything I would maybe talk to him about the whole “I’m a macho man boy.” thing. Maybe just let him know that you think it is stupid the way guys are encouraged to hold back their feelings. I would make it oblique, rather than directed at him maybe talk about a male friend who was having problems. I would just try to indicate that if he ever wants to have a real conversation with you where he is not trying to prove that his balls have dropped you’ll be there for him.

    Also, as far as the “woman” comments go, when teenage boys try to be jerks I think the best response is to be a jerk right back. You could start calling him “boy,” you could mockingly say “Yes oh manly one, how may your humble females be of service today….” I generally go straight for the genitals “Look, we get it, you’ve got a penis, no one is impressed.” His sister talking about his penis might be enough to get him to shut up right there.

    Telling him how much it hurts you might work. Or it might just make him feel victorious and think that you are getting upset about stupid stuff. (He’ll may try to make it seem like his actions were innocuous and you were getting upset over nothing. Which is untrue, but he’d rather believe that than think he was deliberately hurting his mom and sister.)

    Don’t let him rile you, and get him right back, that is the key. If you complain about it that means he’s winning, the key is to make him look stupid for being a douche bag.

    I have two 16 year old cousins who are starting this phase. My boyfriend spent 20 minutes verbally destroying them for acting like tools when he first me them and they freaking ADORE him. I swear they are going to be wearing shirts with his face on them next time I see them. Your brother probably wont go to that extreme but he will at least learn to respect you.

  9. Also re; the yelling. At 16 most guys have a lot of testastarone running through them. So when he gets even a little upset he probably feels very very upset. My family is big on this “yelling over eachother” technique.

    As hard as it is the only very effective response is to just remain very calm and say “Are you finished? Are you ready to listen to my point of view?” If they can’t be calm and listen then end the discussion.”If you can’t be reasonable and at least listen to my point of view then we are not going to continue this discussion. Here is my decision.” Ultimately your mom wins any argument because it is her house.

    Also, the yelling thing may be a learned behavior. Your family needs to make sure that you ALL consistently take the time to listen respectfully to what each other has to say, and do away with yelling. If yelling is a major communication strategy in your house (like it is in mine) your brother yelling over you is inevitable.

  10. Keep in mind that he may be gay. That would also explain the “stupid” and “slut” comments – modified transference that shows he’s “interested” in girls even though it comes off as the distaste it really is.

  11. I think one approach would be to emphasize that in order to get respect, one ought to give respect. Whenever he addresses one of you as “woman”, address him as “child” in reply. If he protests that he is a man, then reply with “then act like one.” If he replies that he thinks his behavior *is* appropriate for an adult man, ask him why he thinks it is appropriate to demonstrate so little respect for the women in his life. If he tries to justify it by saying other men do the same (and worse), ask him if that’s good enough reason to behave in a way that is hurtful to people who love him. Eventually the message should sink in that the appropriate behavior is not based on what others do or can get away with – it’s based on being kind.

    Beyond that, the important thing to realize is that he’s probably at a stage of life where he’s trying on different identities to see what fits, and rules-wise, is pushing the boundaries to see where the limits are. The misogyny is probably still only skin-deep at this stage (or at least one hopes so), but he’s experimenting to see if venting his adolescent angst at women and/or exercising his male privilege are viable strategies for his future adult behavior. In other words, his seeming hatred and disdain for women is probably mostly a pose at this point, but if he does not see the error of this approach soon, it may eventually develop into an ingrained attitude.

  12. Hey all, I submitted the question, thanks so much for your advice 🙂

    As a lesbian, I’m one of the last people to assume my brother’s heterosexuality 🙂 I’m out and our family supports me, so he knows he would also be supported in this way if he were. I did ask him about it at one point and received answers in the negative. Since he’s told me he likes girls, I am taking him at his word. He’s very comfortable in his sexuality as a straight guy, actually, and it’s one of the things I admire about him. I know other kids try to needle him about me and he doesn’t put up with it.

  13. “Learning to realize that when you’re being supported by someone, you need to adjust your attitudes and behavior to suit the person giving the support would be a character-building experience for him, and it would certainly be no worse than the way that young women and girls are socialized to please a future husband. Let’s see how the shoe fits when it’s on the other foot.”

    this only applies if the person supporting you is a feminist right? Or are you saying a 16 year old being supported by an anti-feminist, homophobic, ableist, etc. person should adjust their attitude and behavior to suit that person? Interesting.

  14. From my own perspective:

    It never would have occurred to me to say anything like that to my sister or my mother, but I went through a kind of jokingly misogynist phase at that age, and some of my friends did, too. We all basically grew out of it, and got a decent set of analytical tools to disassemble that mindframe by getting to a college campus. Mind you, we also had platonic female friends we cared about, so full blown misogyny like you’re brother expresses would have felt pretty stupid.

    I definitely remember feeling, as a teen, like the girls in school had all the power, all the options, and all the ability when it came to the romantic sphere, and all I had were unrequited crushes.

    Your mother should make sure she knows his friends, and whether they share his attitudes or treat her with respect, and otherwise keep on top of stuff. In my opinion, you, as a sibling, should definitely and resolutely stick up for yourself, not take any crap from him, but I don’t think you should try to be his parent, because that will just make him feel like he’s being bullied, and maybe harden his poses into actual opinions.

    At that age, my older sister was usually the LAST person with whom I wanted to discuss emotional stuff, because although her intentions were good, it always felt like we were playing her game on her playing field.

    I also think I often received advice better when I was neither particularly asked to acknowledge the advice, or share my own thoughts, feelings, and experiences on the given subject. That usually felt like someone was prying. If you want to get through to him, don’t try to have a discussion, just state an idea in a way he’d be receptive to it, and leave it there. Even if he scoffs, there’s a good chance the ideas will stick with him.

    If you’re actually concerned about his actions with peers–i.e. that he might further act out by harrassing his peers or mistreating dates, then you maybe need to have one clear and serious talk with him that when he talks to his own family like he does, you worry what he might do to other people–that might just smarten him up a little.

    Which means he will probably find other ways to drive you and your mother crazy.

    Good luck.

  15. I agree with tps12… there needs to be a postive, affirming, male role model in this young man’s life. A real man knows how to respect and love women, and I think this boy is truly missing that. If he already has the view that women are stupid and worthless, he needs a man to counsel and train him to reject that opinion. I am the aunt to three young African American boys, and they would NEVER speak to their mother like that because there are plenty of male role models in their lives, including their dedicated father, who would snatch them up in a heartbeat and remind them that women are to be respected and treated equally, not demeaned or taken advantage of.

  16. The bottom line is that we’re talking about a 16 year old boy who grew up in a house with two feminists. He’s at the stage when people assert their individuality and begin to separate themselves from their parents and siblings. Couple that with the fact that he doesn’t have an intimate male role model, which means all he knows about how to “be a man” he’s getting from the media and clueless friends, and his behavior isn’t all that shocking.

    I remember being 16 and male. You’re angry and you don’t know why, you’re confused about everything, your body has demands that you simply cannot fulfill, a life that just a couple of years ago was simple is now maddeningly complex, everyone is telling you to do different things. At the same time you’re just starting to get a taste of independence, you’re just starting to become your own person. So you fight with your parents, you mouth off, and you strive to become what they aren’t. When I was that age my parents were lefty hippy types, so I started reading Evola and got interested in fascism. They listened to The Beatles so I listened to black metal. Thankfully, my parents knew what was going on so they rolled their eyes and bit their tongues at the small stuff.

    I think the best thing you can do is understand where he is in his development and pick your battles. That doesn’t mean letting him walk all over you, or giving him a pass on every misogynist thing that comes out of his mouth. Instead, it means challenging him in ways he isn’t expecting. You did a great job when he started talking about the girls in his class being sluts. Instead of challenging what he said and playing into the whole you vs. him fantasy that he has going on, you asked for clarification in such a way that he actually had to think. The groundwork and the values that you and your mother have laid down for him will survive high school, all you have to do is be smart enough to figure out how to appeal to them without him noticing.

    As for him shouting you and your mother down…he’s 16. If it really gets on your nerves just talk louder than he does. The business about calling you “woman” is something he’s doing because he knows it gets to you. Every time he does it and you respond unfavorably he gets a little thrill from being different and establishing his dominance. Take that thrill away, or turn it back on him, and he’ll stop getting the reward. Most importantly, stop stressing out. You’re an intelligent, thoughtful person who is taking the time to try to figure out why things are going on and what you can do to stop them. That alone is more than a lot of parents (much less older siblings!) I’ve seen. You’ll do fine, I’m sure.

  17. The whole Sluts conversation you had translates, to me, directly into “None of the girls in my class are dating me therefore I don’t like them and they are stupid.” He may have been rejected and is nursing hurt feelings, or like an earlier comment mentioned, be feeling intimidated by them.

    This is far closer to the experiences of the vast majority of male college classmates than a sign of homosexuality…..especially when many of them recounted feeling rejected because many girls and women at their age are dating men far older than themselves.

    I don’t mean to discount the possibility of him being gay…but that calling women “Sluts” and “stupid” by themselves are not necessarily definitive signs of one’s sexual orientation one way or another.

    I am also disturbed by the authoritarian tone being taken by three commenters on this thread….especially when the questioner has stated he is a “good kid” who may be undergoing academic and other stresses in his life.

    Granted, there is nothing wrong with clearly stating what is acceptable/nonacceptable behavior….but the use of violence or telling him to move out* at his age and with the possible difficulties he is going through atm IME tends to further inflame the rebelliousness and may very well possibly permanently alienate him from his older sister, mother, and any ideas of respecting Women…or anyone else and drive him into the arms of the worst misogynists/misanthropes among his high school peers and the larger public to “show up” his mother and older sister.

    * Not saying parents are not entitled to do so…but are often counterproductive if one’s goal is to actually guide him to becoming a well-adjusted respectful adult.

  18. Mezosub:

    Personally, I’d tell him to move out of the house, while calmly and rationally explaining that misogynist attitudes won’t be tolerated any more than other infractions like breaking curfew or getting failing grades in school.

    Chel:

    If I were his mom I would smack him in the face for calling me ‘woman’ (yeah the woman who effing gave birth to you) and do something along the lines of what the person above me said.

    I’d be really careful with that line of reasoning. Right now it sounds like we’re talking about a kid who is experimenting with misogyny as a means of differentiating himself from his feminist mom and a parental sibling, as well as a way of dealing with the stress of other people (in this case, women) seeming to hold dominance over him. Right now its pretty age appropriate, if ugly, and it can be contained. He’s 16, it will pass with the right support and parenting. Slapping him around or threatening to kick him out of the house doesn’t teach him anything. In fact, its only likely to reinforce the ugly crap thats going on in his head. Violence (be it physical, interpersonal, or emotional) only serves to show people that the world works through brutal dominance. It creates fear, hatred, and resentment. Filter that through the society we have, through the friends he will be attracted to because of their similar beliefs, through the tendency he’s already showing to respond with aggression when he feels threatened, and what do you think will happen?

  19. Slapping him around or threatening to kick him out of the house doesn’t teach him anything. In fact, its only likely to reinforce the ugly crap thats going on in his head. Violence (be it physical, interpersonal, or emotional) only serves to show people that the world works through brutal dominance.

    In short…the “Obey me because I am bigger/stronger/more powerful than you” school of dealing with others….popular among schoolyard bullies and authoritarian adults…..who are often stereotyped as members of various right-wing movements all over the world.

    Whenever elementary/junior high bullies….or authoritarian asshole teachers who took pleasure in insulting and tormenting their students attempted to use such methods to “put me in my place”…..they were usually not too happy with my responses. In fact, when I came back to visit my high school as an alum and a college junior, I happened to come across one of those asshole teachers and upon seeing me…..he ran as fast as his feet could carry him in abject terror to the amused laughter of fellow alums from our graduating class.

    Quite ironic as this was the very same teacher who regularly said to my first year high school language class something along the lines of “College is the big time. I doubt very much you have the smarts required to get in, much less survive.” Too bad my classmates and I all proved him 100% wrong on that score.

  20. This is far closer to the experiences of the vast majority of male college classmates than a sign of homosexuality…..especially when many of them recounted feeling rejected because many girls and women at their age are dating men far older than themselves.

    I have to whole-heartedly agree with this. The odds are stacked against a male student should he decide to act on any crush on the females in his own year/class.

    I’ve see it myself. When you’re in the lower years, the girls of your class will have crushes on the cute boys from the senior years. Then once you reach the senior years, the girls will ooh and ahh about mature college/uni guys. Then when you’re at uni, the young women will be looking interestedly at young working professionals. And when you reach the young working professional level, the women will be ooh and aahing about men with managerial level and experience….

    I am not saying that this always the case, but it would be foolish to deny that this is only the minority of cases.

    It can be disheartening to a young man who likes a girl in his class, but knows that she prefers older (read (by him) as: wiser, more intelligent, richer) man. How can a man his age compete with what the older men have? One way of reacting would be to then dismiss his female classmates as sluts, as mentioned in the original post.

    I am also disturbed by the authoritarian tone being taken by three commenters on this thread….especially when the questioner has stated he is a “good kid” who may be undergoing academic and other stresses in his life.

    Yeah, me too. Especially the one about slapping the brother.
    While I myself was caned as a kid and do not regret experiencing that, but slapping someone is different than using a cane. Especially slapping a 16 year old boy, who while mentally and emotionally is still a teenager, but at that age , he would already have the body of an adult male. By slapping him, this might reinforce the “might makes right” that some men still use to solve their problems. Afterall, if he sees someone using physical action to punish someone for not agreeing with their world view/opinion, what’s to say that he can’t do the same? At that age, I would take it that he would still be impressionable and might be influenced negatively by such an action. That’s the least worrisome effect. The most worrisome one if he actually hits back….afterall, if others can do it, why not he? The initial post shows no sign that the brother is aggressive in nature, but I would not be so quick to discount lack of self-control on his part.

  21. Someone says “woman” to me, I just say “When you call me that, smile.”
    I agree that hitting someone just because they really rile you is not right. Use cleverness instead, like some of the other suggestions.
    danandanica–good point, which needs going into. One has obligations to those who provide the food and shelter–up to a point. Just because you feed, water and house your dog doesn’t make it right to abuse said dog, and same thing for kids. Not tolerating certain kids of talk is okay, for there are lots of other places the kid can go to say it, but hurting them by way of their bodies is not. Just my (experience-tainted) opinion.

  22. With guidance, he’ll probably outgrow it.

    Start calling him “boy” whenever he calls you “woman”.

  23. Mother needs to put her foot down and insist her son show her respect. If he is disrespectful, the minimum that she should do is stop feeding him, washing clothes, or doing some of the other things that helpful mothers do when their child is stressed.

  24. Honestly, from what I remember in high school, he’s probably calling the girls stupid because they’re NOT. Most of the boys who called me stupid in high school, or a “dumb girl/woman/whatever”, I would point out that I got much better grades than they did and was better at x, y, and z than they were so they were obviously just jealous, which shut them up. The whole concept of “man is always better/smarter than woman” really messes with the minds of the guys who “aren’t even as good as the *girls*”, both in their minds and the minds of their misogynistic male peers, and they tend to project/overcompensate. Heck, pointing out that calling girls dumb is a pretty good indication to others that he’s insecure about how smart they are may end that part of it.

    Being raised by a feminist, sadly, doesn’t guarantee that he didn’t internalize the “guys are better than girls” message.

    The initial suggestions were well intentioned, but my guess is that sitting down, explaining things patiently, talking about “how you feel” and “why he feels that way” would be greeted with contempt because these are seen as traditionally “feminine” ways of dealing with things and he doesn’t seem to regard that very highly right now. He’s not at a stage where doing that would result in respectful behavior unless there’s some authority and discipline behind it, which since it sounds like your mom is having trouble doing wouldn’t work. Nothing against your mom; effective discipline is hard, especially as a single parent because you can’t fall into the typical roles where one parent provides more love, encouragement, and emotional support and the other provides more discipline, expectations, and structure — when you’re a single parent you have to provide both and it’s really hard.

    Keep in mind that you, as his sister, have a different role than his mom. It may seem counter-intuitive but you don’t have to be as nice, loving, and accepting of his behavior, and you can be a little immature to illustrate exactly what he’s doing. The whole idea of calling him “child” when he calls you “woman” is one example of this. Whenever my little sisters start insulting me or generally trying to piss me off (if his motivation is to piss you off, and it probably is) then one of the best things you, as a sibling, can do is point out that you can go out of your way to piss him off too. You guys are family; you are probably one of the most effective people in the world to piss each other off, because you know each other’s buttons. If he’s gonna push yours, push his. He shouldn’t dish it out if he can’t take it, and boy, no one likes to take it.

    I did that to my sisters many times. They would do something and you know, you just KNOW, they’re doing it precisely to bother you. No other reason. Fine, you do something to bother them back and call them on it, or do it beforehand.

    “Hey, you’re going out of your way to piss me off. You’re doing it on purpose. You keep it up, I’m going to piss you off, and I know you don’t want me to go into graphic detail about your *insert embarrassing subject here* in front of your friends. Your call.”

    It sounds petty and childish because it is, and no it’s not the best way to going about initiating a change in his attitude. But it could help change his behavior, which is the first step. Then when he’s grown up a little (or even if he seems to have a particularly mature moment; I know most of the teens I know go back and forth between knowing much more and being much smarter than you expect to being extraordinarily dumb and immature) you can have the talk which will change attitudes, as advocated by others above.

    Behavior first, then attitude. Trying to change his attitude without first addressing his behavior is practically impossible.

  25. Don’t ever just “let it go”. I thought that my younger brother was just parroting things that he thought would hurt me for points in an argument, until I found out he was stalking his ex-girlfriend and had presumably sexually assaulted her after a relationship in which he tried to pressure her into having sex with him.

    Anyone that is verbally abusive to you or your mother is not worthy of anything but your unadulterated hatred. Anyone that does not understand how the words they use inspire fear and hate and agony, refuses to understand, or understands and maliciously uses them is a horrible excuse for a human being. Do not fall into the trap of saying that he will “just grow out of it”. I hear that all the time. But how long will it take? How long until his hatred and disrespect of women results in something far more serious than verbal abuse?

    My advice is to face the facts that your brother is a misogynist-in-training and does not deserve your love. Even if the social pressures around him inspire him to sexism, that does not excuse it. Misogyny is never a victimless crime. My brother’s misogyny tears my family apart. His deliberate usurping of power, from his older sister and his mother, by the use of sexist behaviors displays that not only does he think that his proper place in the house is at the head, but that your feelings do not matter because you are a woman. I doubt very much that his misogyny will ever be as overt as it is today, but the damage will be done on the girls and women that he has the misfortune to interact with daily.

    I would not suffer a bully in my house. I advise you to not suffer a monster in yours.

  26. I don’t know… I said some really stupid things when I was 16, because I didn’t know enough yet. But having people react when I’d said something foolish helped a lot, to discuss it. I don’t think you should excuse him talking over you and your mom. That’s just fucking rude. But if you’re like “Excuse me, I was talking.” slowly and deliberately (while glaring), and then continue, would that work?

  27. So Timothy, do the mousy, plain, shy, nerdy girls have all the power in high school too? Or do they just not factor into your equation?
    Boys are frustrated because the hot girls they’re lusting after are lusting after other guys. Not all girls are the hot girls all the guys want. Some girls are invisible, and they’re frustrated too.

  28. I’d be inclined as the sibling to aim for gentle mockery when the kid is acting like an idiot and saying dumb things. A parent’s role is a little different, but as the big sister, rolling your eyes and laughing when he says dumb sexist things, combined with comments making it clear that you think he sounds silly would do the trick. Note – not angry or hostile or confrontational, gently mocking. It sounds like little brother is mostly attempting to set up his own identity and differentiate himself from his mother and sister, and he’s chosen a really dumb way to do it, but given the society he lives in it’s not surprising that’s the route he chose. I’d default to responses that make it clear that you find his pretentions of dominance and superiority laughable, because honestly, they are laughable. When he calls you woman, call him boy. When he calls the girls in his class sluts, crack back that he’s only saying that because they won’t sleep with him.

    Teenagers are wired to be rebellious, and trying to assert your dominance will just cause him to push back twice as hard. Try subtler forms of establishing the pecking order instead. If he’s concerned with how he’s seen by others, which at 16 I’m sure he is, then making it clear that spouting misogyny will make him appear foolish to women is a good angle to take.

    Also seconding all the people who pointed out that hitting him is a terrible idea. Asking him to move out is just plain ridiculous. The boy is 16 years old, how is he supposed to survive on his own? Is the goal here to inflict punishment or to try and mold him into a decent adult? I’d suggest the latter option, personally.

  29. That’s just fucking rude. But if you’re like “Excuse me, I was talking.” slowly and deliberately (while glaring), and then continue, would that

    Whenever my high school US history teacher needed to address some behavioral or academic deficiency issues with me or anyone else…all she needed to do to get our attention was to lower her voice to a low sinisterly harsh whisper. That whisper meant that you were in seriously deep shit and though it was almost a whisper…..it had the power to send serious terrifying chills* up the spines of even the most rebellious and headstrong among us. Though she can be extremely tactless on a few occasions (Telling a few slacking students to go see a psychologist due to poor grades in a harsh dismissive tone)**…..it was clear she was strict, but scrupulously fair and had a clear intention of trying to guide us into becoming responsible socially well-adjusted adults.

    * Ones that could only be produced by winds in the harshest coldest regions of the world….think products of Siberian or Arctic winters.
    ** Though I have great respect for her even given the fact she was probably the most strict teacher I’ve ever had, I know of some classmates who vehemently detested her for her strictness…and her occasional tactlessness when dealing with certain issues.

  30. SarahMC: Was that a “what about the galz!” statement?
    But to address it: If you ask the mousy, plain, shy, nerdy girls which guys they’re frustratingly lusting/longing after I would bet the answer would mostly be the same (older) guys that the hot girls lust after. So in a way they are very much a factor in Timothy’s equation as they also most likely are not interested in guys in their own year/class.

    But back to the boy(z); being frustrated is not an excuse for acting like a sexist jerk. Although I’m sure the OP found the “slut”-discussion she had with him really frustrating I think that’s not a bad way to go ahead. He won’t turn his way around on a coin, but he was forced to think a bit about it and a seed is planted. On the other hand the OP says he says things about women which he knows isn’t true. If that’s true then he acts like a sexist jerk, but may in fact not “be” one and this is only a “spiel” to rile the mother and sister up. I think William at comment #17 is the most sensible advice to the sister.

    And to the commenters who would smack the boy in the face (Chel, SarahMC): Seek counselling. That is so wrong and will only perpetuate the problem. Being name called is not a valid provocation for physically assaulting someone. Period.

  31. I grew up in a really conservative household, and I’m the oldest of 4 kids (including 2 brothers). I’m sure they would say I lectured them and whatnot, but usually I just rolled my eyes when they talked. We’re a bit closer in age than you and your bro seem to be (I’m 27, and my bros are now 25 and 23), but I usually just tried to get them to talk to me about what they think and feel about women because it’s usually more complex than “they’re sluts.” Of course.

    I know I have a lot they can learn about womanhood from me, which should hopefully correct the images they get in media etc., but I also have a lot to learn from them. Like, what it’s like to be socialized as a male, and what they think when they meet women, etc. I find these conversations happen only VERY rarely, and NEVER when I ask them who they like in their classes or what girls they talk to at school, or anything that specific. Once one of my brothers (a v smart guy himself) explained how he feels intimidated by smart or accomplished women, and he knows it is wrong but it is a reaction he has initially. I find that kind of honesty valuable, not because I think those feelings are great but because at least he recognizes that as an issue, and it’s something I wouldn’t have thought still goes through brains of smart, progressive men–esp my own brother.

    Sometimes I start talking (not lecturing, but just commenting) about how demeaning ____ (TV shows, music, etc.), or how ridiculous it is that women are portrayed as needing to be attractive to be accepted, etc., and they will join in, esp if I make it a joke. I think I used to spend a lot of time comparing the ideas about how society turns women into crazies discussed in Simone de Beauvoir, and my mom’s behavior (she can be a little crazy sometimes). They liked that, but it sounds like it might not work with your mom.

    In the end, with your example, I’m sure he will figure this stuff out, and if you make it a conversation and genuinely value what you can learn from him too, I’m sure you’ll be able to influence his development a lot. One of the best moments of my life was when my parents were watching some beauty pageant, and I said, “Why are we watching this?” My dad responded with, “Well why not?” And my bro, then about 17, said “because it’s demeaning to women.” My dad sat there with his mouth open and left the room. I looked at my bro, and whispered, “Did you mean that?” and he said, “Yeah!” I had no idea he harbored such progressive feelings. 🙂

  32. If you don’t already know, you should try to find out what kind of media he’s consuming. While I agree with all the comments about this being a phase and probably not that serious at this point, I would still keep an eye out for what ideas he’s getting from our society. If he’s watching crappy tv and movies and especially if he’s looking at pornography, then he’s learning how to hate women the way our society hates women. So it may seem harmless now, and he may end up being a pretty good guy in the end, but if he watches porn and stupid sexist movies and shows then he’s internalizing these ideas and they’ll still pose a problem later on.

    There is a direct correlation between what we watch and listen to and how we treat each other. Even mature adult men treat women crappy when they watch porn, so an immature boy is going to be even worse, as he’s not old enough to process these messages. Same goes for general violence in media. If he’s watching violent movies, he’s going to be more aggressive, and have less respect for people. It may not be obvious and come out as out right violence, it will be under the surface fueling his anger and confusion and may come out as misdirected aggression.

    Looking into what he’s interested in and who he looks up to and admires is a good thing for you to do. And you’re in a better position than your mom, as you’re younger and maybe more in touch with the current culture. Maybe you could direct him toward more productive and positive media that will have a better influence on him.

    And I also agree with the comment about him having a good adult male role model. That is always the most effective influence a teen has. When they have someone they respect and look up to, they’re much more likely to take their advice.

  33. First off, those people who suggested kicking him out, hitting him, or any controlling behavior are way of base. Yeah, it’s mom’s house, mom’s rules, but if you have any concern for this young man, you DO NOT come up with rules like follow, obey, and think like I do. Not okay. If you want any teen to grow up and be healthy and able to think for themselves (instead of just replacing mommy and or daddy with some other authority figure, of whatever stripe) you have to give the progressive responsibility and autonomy, even if you think what they are doning with that autonomy is damn stupid.

    Hmmm, let me see, my brothers (one older, one younger) were actually pretty stable teens (I mean, some anger, but no real stupid shit), it was my younger sister who was kind of irresponsible and tempermental.

    What I learned about conversations with her was the following: (1) she really LISTENED to me. I did not realize this, because she would always argue and tell me I was wrong, but at one point she let us all read her LJ and it was all ‘Iz said this, blah, blah blah’ and I thought, holy sh*t, I need to be really careful about what I say to that kid. (2) Telling teenagers what to do, or what pitfalls to avoid, is usually just a waste of time. I used to do that with her all the time. But the first year of college, she was frustrated with certain things, and wanted to make what I considered some really rash decisions. Instead of telling her I thought she was about to do something really dumb, we talked more about what was bugging her, and the logistics of this new (IMO hare-brained) idea she had for dealing with the frustration. She gave it a try, and it really didn’t work, so she learned ON HER OWN that the way things had been was better than she thought, and she emerged, dignity intact much wiser (and more independent) than before.

    Turning to your specific situation, making fun works. (With regard to the “woman” nonsense.) WRT girls at his school, does he have any female friends? Or are there any slightly older (but still young) female friends of yours who would talk about their frustrations with dating in high school? (I mean in a subtle way. Like he’s in the same room and you start telling eachother stories about high school crushes and humiliation. If he starts to cotton on to the fact that girls go through this embarrassing crap too, it might make him feel a little better.)

    With what TimothyNakayama said, I find that interesting, because it seems that was more the experience in my mom’s high school than my dad’s or my own. A lot of her girlfriends (but not all) dated older guys, but it was pretty much verboten at my dad’s school, and not a big deal at mine, but it just didn’t happen all that much. And they just lived a town away. And with what SarahMC said, I think that a lot of guys who feel rejected/unappealing do not realize how many girls feel the same way in HS. I remember crushing on guys for months, making eyes at them, and then seeing them with a gf and being utterly crushed. It is funny, b/c at one point my brother-in-law and I were talking about HS, and he said, unless you are completely funny looking, which you aren’t, there were at least two or three guys in hs who were probably crazy about you. And I said, no way, not possible. But he’s probably right. And maybe some of the guys in HS who I thought I was being so obvious about had no freakin’ clue. Such is love.

  34. William: I’d be really careful with that line of reasoning. Right now it sounds like we’re talking about a kid who is experimenting with misogyny as a means of differentiating himself from his feminist mom and a parental sibling, as well as a way of dealing with the stress of other people (in this case, women) seeming to hold dominance over him.

    You are right that this isn’t exactly the most effective way to deal with a situation (pushing around or kicking out) but the ‘women who hold dominance’ over him are his OLDER sister and MOTHER. Of course they hold dominance over him. Am I supposed to call my dad a dickhead and yell over him every time he pisses me off because he ‘holds dominance over me’ as my father and elder? Saying that this boy can do whatever he wants as a young male because he has a mother who isn’t a doormat in her life is just plain weird. Everyone seems to be really ok with him being horrible to women, but what if he (assuming he is white for this purpose) had an adopted African American brother, but called him ‘blackie’ every time his sibling did something he didn’t like. I just don’t like it when people place sex/gender on it’s own plane, like it’s a special case that sometimes boys (you know, because they have testosterone and all) will do/say horrible things to women and it’s ok because they’re ‘angry’. Just flip it around and look at it as a girl acting extremely rude to her father and older brother because she has estrogen and is 16. It doesn’t make sense to give males such a pass, because the silence or general non-outrage at his comments makes it seem like he can push women around who are not his mother or sister, because it worked so well with them.

    Also, with the male role-modeling thing it comes in the same form. By everyone thinking he needs a male role model to look up to, to act normally, is ridiculous. Feminists always argue that the sexes really aren’t that different, so it shouldn’t matter whether or not a man in his life is a feminist ally and teaches him how to be that way (a real man) or if he has two feminist family members (mom and sister). Saying that his bad behavior would change if he could only talk to a feminist leaning man just reinforces that young men need other men to show them how to respect women. A.K.A he only listens to the male role model because he is a man . That doesn’t help anything in the long run of how he views women, because he was not made to respect women by women, it was only by another man’s example that he would even begin to do it. I didn’t need some woman role model talking to me about how I should respect men and treat them as human beings- I don’t see how such an exception should be made for young men is all. It’s expecting too little of them and their control over themselves and is giving them an easy way out to continue not listening to women.

    In my opinion… 🙂 A lot of the comments on this thread are very good advice, but I would warn against just shoving the task off to a man to teach him. It would only further that men are the only ones worth listening to, and would end up backfiring.

  35. Did anyone follow the trackback in #34? It speculates a lot (“we don’t actually know whether X is happening in this situation”) but the commenters have nailed it: they are debating whether the girls/women in his class might not actually be sluts. Brilliant.

  36. Your brother sounds a lot like my brother when he was 16… abrasively misogynist, stubbornly defending his retrograde views (girls suck at math, girls suck at driving, etc.). Except now my brother is 24, and prefers to call my mom and I “whore” rather than more innocuous slurs. When my brother was a teenager, I thought he was just being rebellious and trying to define himself against his academic parents and nerdy-punk sister (I’m four years older). I don’t think this anymore. The rhetoric of his misogyny has escalated, and I’m now scared that my brother is a potentially violent sociopath; I desperately hope that he doesn’t act on his rage against a woman in his community. He’s a very frustrated individual, and sometimes when I’m around him (we rarely see each other) I’m a little scared for my safety. My mom is feisty and brazenly smart, my dad is a sweetheart who is a vocal advocate for women in the sciences, and I’ve been a feminist ever since I knew the word existed. Yet I don’t know that there’s anything my parents (or I) could have done to prevent him from being bitter and hateful against women, and I don’t know what I can do now to try to get him to begin to change. I hope your brother doesn’t end up like this.

    I would be resigned to this if I wasn’t also scared about what he might do. Does anyone possibly have any suggestions for how to help?

  37. It doesn’t make sense to give males such a pass, because the silence or general non-outrage at his comments makes it seem like he can push women around who are not his mother or sister, because it worked so well with them.

    I don’t think that’s what William, I, or anyone who disagrees with the authoritarian tone and the use of physical force by some commenters to deal with things. All we’re saying is that the use of authoritarian measures/tone and the use of force are the most ineffective means of not only showing him that he’s wrong…but also to guide him into becoming a socially well-adjusted adult.
    Ismone, William, and other similarly-minded commenters are spot on IME.

    Moreover, not all adolescent boys focus their rebelliousness and anger on female authority figures. In my case, my rebelliousness and anger were mainly focused on two dismissive assholish male teachers who took pleasure in humiliating and making derogatory remarks about me and my classmates. In fact, a year after I graduated, a classmate and I were both given credit by fellow classmates for driving one of them into retirement. A possible reason along with the fact he regularly told my entire class that none of us had “the smarts” to enter and survive college why he ran from me in absolute terror when I came back on an alumni visit as a junior at a decently reputed college. Guess he couldn’t stand being proven flat-out wrong on that point. Thank goodness no one else will have to undergo his humiliations and degrading remarks…..

  38. Not much to add, since my son’s still a toddler, but interesting to see what might be in my future.

    The only thing I can think to really agree with is that a positive male role model would help him a lot, but I’m not sure that’s something you or your mom can do much about at this stage in his life. Putting myself in his shoes, at least as a teenager, I most liked adults who just did interesting stuff and included me in it, and had confidence I could do it.

    One of the worst things about that age was the feeling that I was still so incompetent; I didn’t know anything, and becoming an adult was scary to think about. Does he have hobbies or interests? Just going to a skills camp or taking a class in something he really likes to do could give him a lot of focus for his energy and something to talk about besides sex and manliness.

  39. The developmental job of adolescents males is to rebel, to separate from the family unit and face the world on his own. Females are more inclusive. It would be good for him to have a strong male mentor somewhere, maybe through a good part time job. And healthy ” brothers” to relate too. World is not just toxic to Ophelias but to little Hamlets too.

    Girls mature faster and seek out the top males and this is tough for younger men to accept. This behavior is not gonna change. Someone needs to tell him to be patient. One day he’ll be more mature and attractive to younger women and then the women his age might complain about it.

    How society is organized right now puts us in ensembles that dont work the best with our millenia old programming.

  40. I had the same problem in highschool. My mother is a feminist and I was raised with the idea that I should treat girls and women with respect and concern. The respectful approach didn’t work on any of the girls I knew, and it was hard for me to comprehend that girls are not really interested in guys who treat them with respect and concern. It was stupid for me to find out that if I want something with a girl, all I have to do is smile, talk about trivial bull and get physical as soon as possible. That’s when I started thinking that girls are stupid, that they are sluts. This is your brothers problem I think. He was raised one way… but the real girls in his school and around him are a bit different. If think your brother should know that girls are not dumb sluts, but that the reality is complicated.

  41. i’m reminded again how many smart and considerate people are on this site.
    sorry i don’t have much to add. based on my own example as a loud-mouthed rebelllious kid growing up, i canonly add my agreement to Eric Grant’s thouhgts below:

    “I also think I often received advice better when I was neither particularly asked to acknowledge the advice, or share my own thoughts, feelings, and experiences on the given subject. That usually felt like someone was prying. If you want to get through to him, don’t try to have a discussion, just state an idea in a way he’d be receptive to it, and leave it there. Even if he scoffs, there’s a good chance the ideas will stick with him.”

    i think it is VERY hard for some people (like me) to admit they are wrong at the time they are wrong. but if you tell them why they are wrong, without asking them to immediately acknowledge and agree, the seed is planted (as another commenter wrote) and later, when the pressure is off, he may realize you are right.

    good luck to all in these stressful situations. i think whether he knows it or not this readers’ brother is lucky to have a sister like her, that cares.

  42. You are right that this isn’t exactly the most effective way to deal with a situation (pushing around or kicking out) but the ‘women who hold dominance’ over him are his OLDER sister and MOTHER. Of course they hold dominance over him.

    Maybe I didn’t phrase that quite right. What I was saying was that when kids are in their teens they buck against the dominant figures in their lives in an attempt to assert their independence and form their own identity. Right now, for whatever reason, the aspect he has keyed in upon for the dominant people in his life is gender. Consciously or not, he is trying to limit the power that these others have over him because they are women. He talks over his mother and sister, he puts down their gender by using “woman” as a slur, he calls the girls who won’t sleep with him sluts. These are all attempts to mitigate the powerlessness he feels, to assert his dominance. By escalating that fight, rather than challenging the thought processes, all you do is reinforce his unconscious belief that women will try to control him. Adding aggression as a means of gaining control seems like a very dangerous lesson to be teaching. Of course they hold dominance over him, and that is perfectly justified, but they need to wield that dominance responsibly because they are the caretakers and teachers of this boy.

    Saying that this boy can do whatever he wants as a young male because he has a mother who isn’t a doormat in her life is just plain weird. Everyone seems to be really ok with him being horrible to women,

    I don’t think anyone here is saying he should be given a pass or that his behavior is OK. What I was saying is that, while not OK, it is certainly age appropriate. A two year old having a temper tantrum and throwing toys at their parents isn’t OK, but it isn’t something you call the orphanage over either. It is a normal and expected part of development that you work to correct. Ever seen a parent in a store choosing not to respond to a kid having a fit over something? That parent isn’t thinking “its fine that little Timmy is having a tantrum over not getting candy” they’re thinking “if little Timmy doesn’t find this behavior to be reinforcing he won’t continue it in the future.” Theres a good chance that later on, once Timmy has stopped throwing a tantrum, the parent sat him down and helped make the link for him that the tantrum didn’t earn any reward. It might take a few dozen trials, but eventually little Timmy will learn that throwing a tantrum doesn’t get him what he wants. What the brother wants here is a sense of power, which he gets by seeing that his comments got to his sister and his mother. If they choose not to respond and then to challenge later, the brother is denied that sense of power he’s looking for and he is encouraged to consider why he’s behaving like an asshat.

    Also, with the male role-modeling thing it comes in the same form. By everyone thinking he needs a male role model to look up to, to act normally, is ridiculous.

    Again, maybe I didn’t express my point well. I’m not saying that the brother needs a role model to act normally. What I’m saying is that people learn from observation. We mimic behaviors we see, we internalize things we witness done by people that are similar and important to us. A boy learns how to treat women largely by watching how men in his family treat women. Thats why children who grew up in abusive homes are more likely to be perpetrators or victims of domestic violence when they grow up, because they learned at an early age that thats how men and women interact. Without a positive male (or, as this is a single family, even an in-depth personal experience of a healthy romantic relationship) role model the brother is taking his cues from the media, and maybe from extended family who he sees less often. He’s young, confused, and doesn’t really know how to interact with women. The women in his life are perfectly capable of helping him figure that out, but its going to take a little more time and a little more work. No one fucked up raising him, it’s no one’s fault (well, maybe his father’s for being absent), but different circumstances require different modes of learning.

    him how to be that way (a real man) or if he has two feminist family members (mom and sister). Saying that his bad behavior would change if he could only talk to a feminist leaning man just reinforces that young men need other men to show them how to respect women. A.K.A he only listens to the male role model because he is a man .

    The purpose of a male role model isn’t to teach a boy to respect women. It is to provide an up close example of how a man is supposed to act (especially in the context of his relations with women) for the boy to mimic. If the mother was a lesbian who had a long term partner that partner could serve the same role, giving the child cues about what healthy non-familial relationships look like. A male role model doesn’t sit a boy down at 13 and explain the great rules of behavior. You’re completely right that that would be counterproductive. Instead the job is much more passive. Thats why the term role model is used, because the person provides an example of behavior in a given context for the child to copy. Without a role model learning becomes a more active, and difficult, process.

    Think of it like this. If you grew up walking most places instead of driving (say you were born in New York City), walking would come relatively easy to you. If suddenly you gave up driving entirely, it likely wouldn’t be too difficult. If you found yourself needing to walk a longer distance than normal, you’d be able to do it. In general, walking would be normal for you. If you needed to drive somewhere, you probably know how, but it just doesn’t come up. Now lets say you grew up in a suburban area where walking wasn’t really an option, then you moved to New York City. At first walking would be very difficult. Your feet would hurt, you’d be pissed off at the city for not being driver friendly, you’d get lost, overheated. Eventually you’d get used to walking, but it would be a difficult process. Growing up with good role models is like growing up in the city: you have a bank of experiences that make you better able to adapt, and you have a lifetime of small steps and little lessons that allow you to manage things with a minimum of difficulty. Growing up without a good role model is like growing up in the suburbs: you have a rather narrow bank of experiences and learning new ones is likely to be a difficult process. That doesn’t mean you can’t, but things won’t go as smoothly and the learning curve is much more steep.

    In my opinion… 🙂 A lot of the comments on this thread are very good advice, but I would warn against just shoving the task off to a man to teach him. It would only further that men are the only ones worth listening to, and would end up backfiring.

    You’re completely right, just shoving the task of teaching him off to a man would backfire badly at this point. If what I said gave the impression that thats what I meant, I apologize.

  43. Chel: I notice that you have played the physical reaction down from “smack him in the face” (#7) to “pushing around” in comment #36. Does that mean you no longer stand for what you wrote in comment #7?
    I’ve read nowhere in this thread any arguments that the boy can do whatever he wants to just because he’s a boy. I’ve seen quite a few commenters offer theories as to WHY he might be acting this way. Why do people assume that WHY is offered as an excuse?! When in fact knowing the WHY is a damn important factor when choosing the right action to remedy the situation – in this case alter the behaviour and more importantly the mindset of this kid. Much more so than a smack in the face.

    In fact I am pretty disappointed that so very few on this thread has condemned that advice and that the only criticism seems to be limited to pointing out that it would be ineffective. Damn right it would, but more important it’s just plain wrong. And on a feminist site which among other things speaks out against DV I would’ve expected more people pointing that out.

    One thing I can agree with Chel on is wishing luck to the original poster, but even more so to the boy. It seems obvious to me that the original poster didn’t ask for advice in concern for herself and her mother, but in concern for her brother out of love. If he internalize the attitudes and gender view he now expresses as described by the original poster he’s in my opinion more likely to ed up having a frustrated and unhappy life. And for that I think he needs our good luck wishes more than the sister and mother.

  44. William: A very good comment at #44. I’d just like to make a point. You said “A boy learns how to treat women largely by watching how men in his family treat women. “. One should not forget that boys also learn how to treat and talk about women from how the women in his family treat and talk about women. It’s obviously not the case for the original poster, but don’t think for a minute that little 8 year old Timmy isn’t affected when his mother trash talks another women for being “loose”. That sort of thing is depressingly common. And thus only a call for men to police themselves and other men will only go so far without simultaneus a call to women to police themselves and other women. Heck, even cross-gender policing should be encouraged.

  45. He sounds angry. I would work at getting to the source of his anger. Where is his father or where are his male role models? Is there someone, a pro-feminist male who can address his insecurities, frustrations and anger with him?

    You and your mother can continue setting the feminist example from a woman’s perspective, but, he sounds like he could use a pro-feminist male perspective as well.

  46. I have two sons, one of whom (at 37) still thinks this kind of misogynist stuff is mildly funny. He uses it when he thinks I’m going overboard with anti-male comments or when he’s just bored with the way the conversation’s going. I also had a sort-of stepdaughter years ago. They’ve taught me that the less you say in a feminist vein, the more seriously they’ll take what you do say. 1) Yawn loudly when he says this stuff. 2) Don’t try to reach him with feminist talk. He’ll probably hear lots of it in college courses when he’s far more likely to listen. LET HIM THINK HE’S DISCOVERED THE WHOLE IDEA, which he’s likely to do when he’s older. Shut down your responses to his crap totally now. He’s at the age when he’ll feel defensive and that you’re anti-him as an individual. Keep your attitude loving and tolerant–he’s just a kid and he needs your approval.

  47. To Olivetti at comment #38: I sympathize with your obviously terrifying experience with your brother. Your comments shiver with your fear and hatred of him. He must be a very scary individual indeed. He sounds genuinely mentally ill and you’re wise to avoid all contact. However, your advice is highly colored by your attitude towards him. This boy, in his own sister’s opinion, is “a good kid” and basically enjoys a pretty good family relationship except for his attempts to annoy his very pro-feminist mother and sister. I advised them to lighten up, and I want to advise you to take steps toward lightening your own burden by talking to a counselor of some sort. I think you’re suffering and would benefit from a bit of help. IMO, therapists are simply people who are trained to help other people solve problems–there’s no stigma attached to seeing a specialist, in any field. (Readers, don’t be saying, “Duh”. There are still a lot of people who’ve been brought up to think there is.) I realize you didn’t ask for advice, but your pain is evident. I wish you well, and hope things go well for you.

  48. Whoops, #38–you did ask for advice. I’m afraid I sounded condescending. Believe me when I say I didn’t mean to. I just didn’t read your comment thoroughly enough. Sorry!

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